Heaven Bound, or Hell Sent?

Just came across this article today. Thought that it would contribute a very ancient Christian opinion to this discussion:"The Pope's Death: A Defining Moment"By Pastor Ralph Ovadal, April 1, 2005"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" - Isaiah 5:20 As I write this, Pope John Paul II is near death. Once he draws his last breath, a Vatican official will lightly tap three times upon the deceased pontiff's forehead with a golden hammer and call his name. Upon receiving no reply, the cardinal chamberlain will remove John Paul's fisherman's ring and smash it. Thus begins the pagan Romish spectacle of choosing and crowning a new pope. The pope's death is the dawn of a defining moment for all who claim to be born-again followers of Jesus Christ, whether they call themselves Protestant or evangelical or just plain Christian. It does not take a prophet to state that the passing of Pope John Paul II will trigger a flood of statements and discussions among Christian pro-family leaders, talk show hosts, and nationally known preachers. It also does not take a prophet to know that the dead pope will have mountains of compliments heaped upon him by many of those same individuals. Going a step further, it is safe to say that the presupposition underlying those eulogies and the recurring theme at the heart of them will be that the pope was a wonderful, godly man, a Christian who is now in heaven. As I said, this is a defining moment. It is, in fact, an evangelistic moment catching the attention of virtually the entire world. What should any true follower of Jesus say about such a man as Pope John Paul II? What should one who has assumed a role as a shepherd of Christ's flock or a spokesman for His Church say about the pope? Plainly and simply put, they should say that John Paul II was a counterfeit, a minister of Satan (2 Corinthians 11:13-15). They should tell the truth that he was an accursed man who deceived millions. Those who cannot tell the truth should not say anything. Those evangelical leaders who feel so compelled to express their affection and respect for Pope John Paul II do not seem to know or care that they are at the same time showing anything but love for the Roman Catholic people whom the pope has deceived and enslaved. They are certainly not showing respect for the Word of God which the pope, that man of sin, trod underfoot and the blood of Jesus which he counted as an unholy thing. The pope preached the false Roman Catholic gospel which features a false Christ who cannot save without the aid of priests practicing pagan rituals and penitents performing works and a pagan goddess sharing her favors. The pope blasphemed the Lord Jesus Christ as a way of life, most especially during the mass when he claimed to call down our Great High Priest from the right hand of the Majesty in heaven and turn Him into a wafer and a goblet of wine. The pope blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, claiming to displace Him as Christ's substitute and voice on this earth. The pope championed the cause of the Roman Catholic Virgin Mary goddess. He prayed to her, worshiped her, and adored her. He consecrated the nations to her. He endorsed and reveled in her demonic apparitions. He credited her with saving his life. There is so much which could be said about Pope John Paul II, about his corrosive, damning influence and his pagan practices. But why belabor the point? The truth has been apparent for all to see for twenty-six years. And simply put, the pope was a pope. The nature of popes is the nature of antichrist because they are antichrist just as the Roman Catholic Church is the woman who rides the beast as described in Revelation chapter 17. That the pope and his church are evil is an understatement. The Word of God shows the pope to be an accursed man no matter what good causes he may have championed. The tragedy which is upon us is not the death of the pope, although neither will we revel in the death nor damnation of any man. The tragedy which is upon us and which the pope's death will clearly emphasize once more is the dearth of integrity, discernment, and courage among evangelical—or should I say neo-evangelical—leaders in our nation. Remaining silent at this time, as reprehensible as that is, would be a vast improvement to the message many such leaders will feel the need to proclaim. The world's impression that Pope John Paul II was a true Christian man leading the true Christian Church, teaching the true Christian gospel will be strongly reinforced by the accolades heaped upon the pope by evangelical leaders. At the same time, the great milling mixture of sheep and goats which fill up the evangelical churches in our land will be further compromised and confused. The death of Pope John Paul II is a defining moment which will reveal the hearts of many who present themselves as born-again, blood-washed followers of Jesus Christ but by their words will reveal that they are either not His or that they should not publicly represent Him. Reams of paper could be expended documenting the heresy of Pope John Paul II and citing the Scripture verses proving that such a man is not a Christian, not a servant of God, and will not be a citizen of heaven. But in reality, Galatians chapter one, verses eight and nine should settle that matter: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Pastor Ralph OvadalPilgrims Covenant Church

According to John 3:3 and Luke 13:3 unless a man repents from all his sin and is supernaturally born-again into the family and Kingdom of God, he will never see Heaven. No one is exempt from this. Neither pastor, nor missionary, nor pope.and then what about the children and the intellectually handicapped and those who have never heard...?

Philologos wrote:and then what about the children and the intellectually handicapped and those who have never heard...? That is a great question! If you have some time, I really would like to hear your thoughts about this, since I conclude from the way you ask the question that you have an opinion...I wrote a little bit about this in another thread: What about all the unsaved Indians?.The following verse gave me a better inside inside in this matter:And the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the porters, the singers, the Nethinims, and all they that had separated themselves from the people of the lands unto the law of God, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, every one having knowledge, and having understanding... (Nehemiah 10:28, note: my Bible translates the bolded part of verse like this: all those who had come to the year of distinction) Those that had not come yet to the year of distinction didn't give their oath to keep the law of God and walk in His ways. They simply couldn't.It's difficult to draw a line in this matter, saying: "until 3 years of age all children go to heaven". It differs from child to child. The one is able to understand the Gospel at the age of 5, another is able to understand it at the age of 8.This is also a reason for me to believe that most of the people with a intellectual handicap will surely go to heaven, because some of them are not able to distinguish "good" from "evil".In Christ,Paul

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is 'the book' of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. Judgemnt is according to our deeds. Salvation is by Christ.

"Those that are without, God judges". I refuse to dig him up and put him in one place or the other. I don't believe any of the doctrines of his religion were accurate, at all... But hell is too fearful a place to wantonly throw people into. God will judge him. One thing only is sure: I don't want to be in his place...

Some point out the Scripture and say he went to hell....But didnt the Lord go down to hell and preach the Gospel?No, I don't believe He did.Judas betrayed the Lord, AND Peter betrayed the Lord, do you think that Judas' sin was greater than Peter's?Judas I is the only human being of whom it is written "Satan entered into him". Luke 22:3; John 13:27

There is scripture that alludes to the fact that children will go to heaven, not because they have done anything but by grace. To understand my reasonings here are is a link to what John McAurthur says: http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/80-242.htm I like his logic on the matter. I like his concept of the condition of accountability and not age of accountability.

YeshuaIsMyGd wrote:Judas went to hell. Suicide is a 100% to dwell in the eternal fire. The God I believe in wouldn't commend such wickedness.Can I presume that you would toss folk, who in a state of clinical depression commit suicide, into hell?

YeshuaIsMyGd wrote:Any more opinions on this matter? (Pope/Thersea)I agree with you, must be born-again, as to the state of those two individuals, who knows what happened on their death beds. No matter how they lived there lives in apparent apostasy, who knows what happens in those final momments before a person slips into eternity.Brave man in my book to make a judgement call on this issue. Did Hitler pass into eternity without making peace with his saviour? Who knows? There is only one to whom all judgement has been given.

I like his logic on the matter. I like his concept of the condition of accountability and not age of accountability.I think this is quite a widely held view among 'non-Calvinists' too although he seems to think it is of special merit for the Calvinist theology.To my way of thinking this is just plain accountability. God holds us accountable for what we 'know we are doing'. The prayer of the Lord Jesus is interesting in this light “Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.” (Luke 23:34, KJVS) The word for 'know' here is to 'perceive'; we might translate it 'they don't 'see' what they are doing'. This seems to indicate that this prayer is based upon their 'knowing' or 'not knowing'.This links with another recent thread and Acts 17 where God is said to 'overlook ignorance' until the word of God penetrates that context. (Acts 17:30). God's protest to Jonah is another link in this pattern; “Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?”(Jonah 4:10-11, KJVS)I don't have any doubt but that we are judged not on the basis of what we do but on the basis of we know about what we do. What does intrigue me with McArthur's position is the implication that every aborted baby and every severe learning-disabled person and every person who dies before the 'condition of accountability' is thereby deemed 'one of the elect'. Really?

philologos wrote:What does intrigue me with McArthur's position is the implication that every aborted baby and every severe learning-disabled person and every person who dies before the 'condition of accountability' is thereby deemed 'one of the elect'. Really?If they are not one of the elect, then what are they?

If they are not one of the elect, then what are they?Hi ZekeOMy understanding of election has more to do with service than salvation. Israel was an elect nation. The Calvinists regard the 'elect' as a fixed number of individuals chosed for salvation before time. Although one brother in these forums has suggested I be made 'an honorary Calvinist' I have declined the honour. :-D I think having adopted the general Calvinist position MacArthur is then forced to take this line but to me it makes it the whole pattern of election even stranger. My problem is with the idea of having to be 'one of the elect' to guarantee salvation.

Greg writes...Sorry if this is too much off topic...Do feel free to use this website as though it were your own. 8-)

philologos wrote:My problem is with the idea of having to be 'one of the elect' to guarantee salvation. When you first asked the question, I had no clue what you were talking about. Fortunatley I am learning the lingo of christian theology, I know that these two guys had issues in the past and their adherents have been at it ever since. :-? When I read elect in the article, my immediate thought was not in the context of 'predestination election' but in the election of born sinners into the kingdom of God, not based upon any preordainded planning on Gods part, but on his grace extended to sinful creatures incapable of choosing right from wrong.Do you get the difference of what I am saying, not that the individual soul was elected, but the soul in that condition was. I know it seems like I'm saying the same thing, but thats how the deck of cards has fallen. Make sense?