Where did the doctrine of the Pretrib Rapture Come From???

Hi Bearmaster,
I think this is a loaded question in particular using the terms "developed" and "originated" which are disconcerting to pre trib believers.
We have to discuss our points in relation to whats in the Bible and is it in the Bible or not.
Again their are many great(although none great compares to Christ) Christians who believe in the Post Tribulation and their are many great Christians who believe in the Pre Tribulation,all brothers and sisters in Christ,
Their are downsides to believing in Post Tribulation and their are downsides in believing in Pre Tribulation,their are also upsides,
Yours staff

I agree completely staff. Many great christians have believed pre trib, some post trib, some (like Finney) were actually post millenial. I am pre trib myself; I don't think I am under some sort of delusion. Read what Darby and some of his associates, like Anthony Norris Groves, wrote. They were full of the love of Christ; they weren't cult leaders, like some have depicted them.

From christinpropheycy.org

"Jesus stated in Matthew 24:42,44 to "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come… So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.” Not only do believers in Christ not know when to expect Him, but the Father Himself seems to have left Jesus out on the exact time His Son is to return. As Jesus stated in Matthew 24:36, "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” These and other verses (Mat. 24:36,42,44,50; 25:13; 1 Thes. 4:18; Tit. 2:13; 1 Jn. 2:28; 3:2-3) indicate that Jesus’ arrival will come when nobody expects it.

The Second Coming, on the other hand, is preceded by many events, such as the rise of the Antichrist (Rev. 12:13-17; Zech; 13:7-9), a treaty with Israel (Dan. 9:27), the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple (Mat. 24:15; 2 Thess. 2:3-4; Rev. 11:1-2), as well as plagues and judgments and persecutions destroying most of the world’s population (Rev. 6-18). The Book of Revelation reports these events as occurring during the 7-year Tribulation, which Revelation reveals precede the Second Coming."

And please also remember, I respect all differing viewpoints on this subject. Keep in mind that we can "understand all mysteries, and all knowledge", yet without love, we are nothing. We must "endeavour to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." Ephesians 4:3.

The more I study Revelation the better I understand the people's lack of understanding of Jesus' birth in Bethlehem and his subsequent ministry and ongoing 'rule' among people.

Blaine, how do you understand the millennium reign? Its beginning and end?

Sandra

An interesting article rebutting Joe Schimmel's "left Behind Or Led Astray" can be read here: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Rebuttal-statement-Left-Behind-or-Led-Astray.pdf

Part of the article debunks the notion that Darby got the idea of the pre trib rapture from Margaret Macdonald. In fact, Darby said Macdonald's utterances were not inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it seems that her utterances supported a post tribulation view.

The dilemma whether to believe either pre or post trib seems to hinge on the weaknesses of the non-preferred view. For decades, I held to one view because I read for all those years the biblical arguments of those who spent most of their time refuting the opposing view. But, I always struggled to swallow the underlying arguments since they stood less on their own bottom than they did on the heap of what they thought they had destroyed in the opposing view.

In time, I determined to look at the textual support for pre and for post on my own. I reached a prayer-soaked conclusion. I have no preference but the truth. God is just no matter how He does what He says He will do. I am thoroughly convinced and I do not need to stand on the ruins of the opposing view. A good, faithful to the Word opposition that is simply wrong is not less in Christ than I am because it is wrong.

The flipside is that for those of us who are post trib believers, as I am, we cannot find peace with the status quo ante and we feel a tremendous burden to persuade and warn of the troubles ahead and even Daniel's 70th week. When we say why we are so burdened, we do not wish to invite the derision and criticism of pre trib believers. But, the swirl of engagement seems always to go to the drain of exchanged attacks on the other side's perceived weaknesses. That is no pathway toward truth.

In the end, it does not matter what Darby believed or when. It matters what the bible reveals. If Darby is truly consistent with biblical revelation, then good on Darby even if Margaret MacDonald was a catalyst for that and even if Darby was the first man to understand the reality of things eschatological this side of the apostles. But, if Darby is not congruent with the Bible, then poor Darby. He then joins the long list of people who have been wrong and who never in the first place stood to ask to be the standard of truth.

Many that have studied the pre-trib view believe that many beliefs that have grown up around and accompany the pre-trib view are as much in need of further discussion as the pre-trib view itself.

1) Everyone saved during the tribulation will never be part of the church since the church will have been taken and vanished. Tribulation saints will be saved through faith and the blood of Christ but nonetheless will never be part of the church.

2) Believers who have come to faith during the tribulation will not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. This raises a legitimate issue if one can be born again without being indwelt by the Spirit.

3) Many pre-trib advocates propose Israel will be placed back under a system of law and will be required to be saved in this "Old Testament manner" during the tribulation since the age of grace will have closed.

4) Many parts of the NT will not be relevant for tribulation believers since major parts of the NT are for the church only.

5) The Day of the Lord will he seven years long instead of occurring at the end of the tribulation.

Many pre-trib believers are not even aware of these views that have grown up around and accompany their view.

Hi docs.

1. I don't hold to the view that Tribulation saints are not part of the church. Even Old Testament believers are part of the church and were born again the same way we are today and will be during the Tribulation.

2. Everyone who places their faith in Jesus Christ and is born again is indwelt by the Holy Spirit; again, even in the Old Testament it was so.

3 and 4. What are they supposed to believe then? Even in the Old Testament times, law could not save you, so it can't during the Tribulation.

5. The Day of the Lord is just that; it's a one time event where God takes the saints to be with Him, not a seven year period.

Also, I hear people say that you have to infer the pre tribulation rapture in scripture, but you also have to do that with the doctrine of the Trinity. Many cults will deny the Trinity because that word is not in scripture, you have to carefully study the scriptures and ask God for illumination.

Hi Dolfan,
Your Qoute>
In time, I determined to look at the textual support for pre and for post on my own. I reached a prayer-soaked conclusion. I have no preference but the truth. God is just no matter how He does what He says He will do. I am thoroughly convinced and I do not need to stand on the ruins of the opposing view. A good, faithful to the Word opposition that is simply wrong is not less in Christ than I am because it is wrong.

The flipside is that for those of us who are post trib believers, as I am, we cannot find peace with the status quo ante and we feel a tremendous burden to persuade and warn of the troubles ahead and even Daniel's 70th week. When we say why we are so burdened, we do not wish to invite the derision and criticism of pre trib believers. But, the swirl of engagement seems always to go to the drain of exchanged attacks on the other side's perceived weaknesses. That is no pathway toward truth.

In the end, it does not matter what Darby believed or when. It matters what the bible reveals. If Darby is truly consistent with biblical revelation, then good on Darby even if Margaret MacDonald was a catalyst for that and even if Darby was the first man to understand the reality of things eschatological this side of the apostles. But, if Darby is not congruent with the Bible, then poor Darby. He then joins the long list of people who have been wrong and who never in the first place stood to ask to be the standard of truth.

Hi Dolfan I think your comments are fair about Darby .If they are consistant with the bible good and if not poor.Many pre tribbers also have a deep concern for those going to go through the tribulation not because of Christians going through this time but because they have a love for the lost and the unsaved and want to warn them of the time ahead.
Rememeber a preacher called Barry Smith he was mid tribber which is really a form of pre trib and definitely a non post tribber and he went around warning people of the 7 years ahead,yours staff

...Jesus told His disciples that in this world we would have tribulation, some greater than others.
Paul said that the tribulation he goes through on earth doesn't begin to compare with the glory to be revealed when Christ returns for His people.

When writing to the Thessalonians, Paul keeps emphasizing that the Day of the Lord is to be a source of comfort for Christians, a culmination of the good things promised by Jesus; that that Day had not yet come (in their time), that it would come as a thief in the night, that the man of sin (lawlessness) would be revealed. It would be a time of great delusion in the world, however not for true believers.The delusion is for those who found no place in their hearts to believe the truth and be saved. Paul then again reminds them that they were chosen by God for salvation through sanctification by the Holy Spirit and faith in the truth

...in summary, it doesn't really matter what tribulation we go through, small or great, the truth is, we are going THROUGH and coming out on the other side into the glory that Christ has promised to all who believe and continue to believe in Him.

Blessings,

by staff
Rememeber a preacher called Barry Smith he was mid tribber WHICH IS REALLY A FORM OF PRE TRIB (emphasis Lisa's) and definitely a non post tribber and he went around warning people of the 7 years ahead,yours staff

I couldn't handle it, I thought it was impossible and I read and reread the Scriptures. But in the mean time of not being able to base jump right into post-tribulation, I found mid-trib and settled there for about 6 mos to a year while still studying the Scriptures. But my personal point is that mid-trib was my exodus and first step toward post-trib while the dust settled in my mind and heart.

Edit: Well, after rereading this, your statement could very well be true!! Mid-trib can be a form a pre-trib because I no longer believed the pre-trib was correct but was afraid to leave the belief I had held for years.

God bless,
Lisa

I couldn't handle it, I thought it was impossible and I read and reread the Scriptures.

I really do not find anything useful in the post or pre trib arguments. I think I am post trib because I see all the scriptures pointing to that. I have no trouble believing it. I have already faced enough persecution for my faith. The feeling of being hated by your loved ones for your faith is far bitter than any physical suffering. I think all this are again great debate in west where prosperity is making it difficult for them to accept any persecution.

Many Pre Trib believers, though they acknowledge that there is no scriptural backing for their belief, they still hold on to it because it is difficult for them to believe otherwise.

In order to comprehend the catching away of the "church" or bride of Christ and place it in a time line you have to clarify where you stand in regards to Daniel's 70th week and than look at the events of Revelation. At a certain point the church is no longer on earth and the prophesy in Daniel containing the 70th week was for "Thy people" which is clearly an indication that he is talking about natural born Israelites as opposed to engrafted gentile believers in Christ. I need to look again but I believe the Church of Jesus Christ is not mentioned on earth again after ch4 of Revelation, how ever we see pictures of events happening in Heaven as well as events happening at the same time on earth after ch 4 specifically ch 5 and forward. Than you have to look and make a difference between Tribulation and The Great Tribulation. Presently more christians are being persecuted and martyred now than at any time in world history...so only in America does certain misnomers really apply when it comes to the catching away of the Bride of Christ. The catching away was an expected event to such an extant that the church in Thessalonica closely associated with the exhortation to the church of Smyrna had some clarification from Paul. The time line was not really expounded on but some of the ongoing conditions were, those conditions however have existed from that time til now. The actual event of the catching away if you parse the words from the greek are really pretty straight forward in that when this event happens all those in Christ will be gone forcibly removed from earth and suddenly in Heaven with Christ.

I don't think that any here are under the assumption that there's no tribulation that a christian must endure. Each christian suffers in one degree or another.

The question hinges upon ones interpretation of Matthew 24 and Daniel's 70th week. It is the "Great Tribulation" referenced in those verses that the debate is over.

If this is not the case, please explain.

So, it is of utmost importance to understand what the Spirit is teaching in the context of those verses.

Acts 2:36

Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Hi Bearmaster
On this qoute one thing that I find with the post tribulation view is that they alot of the times dont differentiate between
"Tribulation" and "The Great Tribulation"
So jut because we have tribulation in this life and we go through it doesnt mean that we automatically assume that we go through the specific period of time called the "The Great Tribulation".This specific time has also a specific purpose or purposes and it also has like a football match two halves.
(Probably one way of looking at this is God does not save us "from' the tribulation. But He saves us "through" the tribulation. The Israelites in Egypt are a good example of God saving His people through the tribulation.)
Yours Staff

Hi Lisa,
One thing that Barry Smith always said and its the only thing I can remember that really hit a chord with me was this.
Jesus gave two examples and in both specific examples Judgement only happened after specific events.The events were "until the day Noah entered the Ark" and "until the day Lot left Sodom"
So I guess what I cant except as an arguement for Post Tribulation view is that their is going to be any kind of normality in the great tribulation.A post tribulation believer has to believe that the Noah and Lot examples cannot be about the "Great Tribulation" to be anyway honest or consistant.
Why?Because they were eating and drinking and building and marrying and planting and sowing.Jesus goes out of his way to show that it was a time of plenty.What Jesus was saying was everything was normal (including sin )right up til the time of departure for Noah and Lot then immediate Judgement.
If post tribulation view is correct then the Noah and Lot examples are about something else.Ive seen arguements that somehow the tribulation isnt worldwide and that of course they will be eating drinking how could they live etc but I dont think that explanation can marry up with the picture Jesus is painting.
Does this mean Post Tribulation view is wrong?No not nessacarily but it does mean that the Noah Lot examples are not about the Great Tribulaton.
Ps Judgement only happened after Noah was safe and Lot was safe and both were not harmed at all but did endure some turmoil or persecution before leaving.These examples cannot be an example of going through the tribulation and being harmed or killed or martyred or even starved.
Yours staff

"Oh look, hundred pound hailstones. Can you pass me a sandwich? I worked a whole day for that, by the way. Also, can you get me a glass of water? No, not the bloody water. There is no other water? Oh well. I sure hope the Russians don't drop a nuke on us, like they did to our neighbours in the U.S. Yeah I've gotta go to work tomorrow; just a regular old workday. By the way, my sister's wedding is on Tuesday."

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound...(I Cor 15:51-52)

and He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt 24:31)

This trumpet Jesus speaks of is the last trumpet. It is the very last trumpet spoken of therefore can be coupled with I Cor 15:51-52 which speaks of the last trumpet as being the time when saints are changed and glorified. All ambiguity is gone. Matt 24:29 sets the context as AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days. The last trumpet hardly could have occurred seven years earlier if there is yet another trumpet to sound after the tribulation of those days. The church is raptured and changed at Matt 24:31 - at the last trumpet after the tribulation of those days.

Hi Bearmaster,
Yeah your right I was only re quoting what you said and commenting on that qoute.Yours staff

Interesting. I read Matt 24 and only see The Blood bought Christian community here through verse 13 perhaps vs 14 and than I see a shift in the events and focus as I understand Daniels 70th week starts, the church is no longer on earth, but like the family of Noah they are in an Arch(figuratively speaking).Heaven

1Cor 15 has nothing really to do with Matt24 and Daniel s 70th week, it was simply addressing an issue that the Corinthian believers were having pertaining the dead in Christ and the last day but not the end times as pertains to week 70 and the events happening on earth or in Heaven directly.

I also am not sure what you mean by "secret" rapture because the whole world will see that event happen.

Hi bro Blaine,

I am certainly no expert on this and don't really care whether there are two or one resurrection, but in response to your post and scripture copied below, these clearly refer to the resurrection of the dead not those who remain alive.

...Truly truly, I say to you an hour is coming and now is when the dead will hear the voice of the son of God, and those who hear will live....John 5:25

... Do not marvel at this for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment...John 5:28-29

What of the blood bought Christian community spoken of in Rev 7:14?

These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. {Rev 7:14)

This seems a very clear description on a blood bought Christian community to be gathered during a final tribulation Christ described in Matt 24:21. Darby was the very first in the history of the church to propose that blood washed tribulation saints would not be part of the blood washed Christian church.

If I For 15:51-52 does not describe the rapture and translation of dead and living saints at the last day then what does it describe? The last day, resurrection day, is at the end of Daniel's 70th week which in every way possible is part of the end time.

I respect your thoughts on these passages brothers and I do not want to be contentious so I respectfully submit the following on the passages: Rev 7 is a scene in heaven and there will be those who die for the sake of Christ from the preaching of the 144000 who are martyred during the great tribulation. And 1Cor 15:51-52 does not set the catching away in the time frame at the end of Daniels 70th week, as a matter of fact if you just use that chapter alone(which is unwise) that event can take place at any time. You guys do know that there will be natural born Jews saved during the great tribulation, right? Can anyone show me the gentile church or born again converts to Jesus Christ on Earth after chapter 5 of Revelation? As I stated before there are things John records that are happening on earth and at the same time in heaven, so again look at Daniel s prophesy, the term "THY people" is used, that refers to the natural born Israelite. Our job in this present age is to watch and pray for we known not when.......

Hi All,
Ive come to a conclusion although Ive said it before in a different way.
This subject is a window into many of our other beliefs and thats why it can become heated (at times),personal, very interesting as well (dont forget)and informative.
When you look through the other persons window you see their "Grace and Judgement beliefs" .You will see also their "salvation beliefs" which is closely linked .If you look beyond the Tvs and table and chairs you may see beliefs on Israel, Martyrdom on Church gatherings .Its one of those subjects that although is going to happen in the future looks straight into our present and our past .
Thats why we should respectfully continue to debate and study the subject but keep in mind that Im only looking through a glass dimly and that if I were inside the house I would see everything clearly ;where I was wrong ,where I was right ....
I cant help but think that the greatest evangelical tool that was ever at the Christians side is "his winnowing fork is in his hands" and for this reason debate on end times although it appears endless can be a valueable learning place.We do have to know what we are talking about right?when the end comes?
Yours Staff

I used to believe mid trib to be honest but since I took some Greek and Hebrew classes and have had to parse words and study contextual construction making scripture explain scripture and using things like 2 or 3 different places in the bible to explain the meaning, for example, John the apostles style mirrors closely Daniels and some things in the Book of Hebrews confirms things in Revelation, while the Pauline epistles can sometimes bear out Eze and on and so fourth. All that said I have slowly began to look at the times of the gentiles as having a starting point and an ending point, with salvation really coming to a halt in the broader sense and narrowing extremely during the last 7 years or Daniels 70th week. I do believe there will be salvations during this time but I also believe the church won't be here on earth. Those saved by the preaching of the Jewish converts or 144000 will have to endure suffering like no other generation, I also see more than one instance of the catching away in the word of God.

The verses in Revelation 7 and 21 are those as seen in Heaven even so I will attempt to take another look at these passages and see if I can put them to the fire of the other Books that address these issues like Eze/Dan/1&2 Thes along with Rev and Matt. I still believe that this country will pretty much be a non-issue during the last days though,and also it is a good time to get a hold of God for the salvation of our loved ones. Like you I have appreciated the tone of this thread because I can see from others perspectives as well and do honestly appreciate others point of views. God Bless BroDMiller

If we all will be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet how many last trumpets can there be? After the trumpet Jesus mentioned in Matt 24:31, after the tribulation of those days, there are no more trumpets. That is it. If a trumpet sounded seven years before how can it legitimately be called the last trumpet if seven years later there is still another trumpet (24:31) to sound?

What will the 144,000 preach? I assume it will be the saving gospel of Christ. If these tribulation believers have made their robes white with the blood of the Lamb (Rev 7:14) then there is the church. Any believer who has placed faith in Christ and been cleansed by His blood has always been considered part of the church. Darby was the very first person in church history to advocate that tribulation believers will never be part of the church. This view only appeared in church history in the 1830s therefore is a very recent innovation never seen before the 1830s.

Are tribulation believers who place their faith in Christ and are washed in His blood part of the church or aren't they. This question must be answered.

I also will do more study and finally...return with the correct position! :)

bearmaster wrote
Brother I am not sure what the correct position is 😊. Other then Jesus id coming back soon..😊

LOLOLOL Isn't that what we all think about it?!! :) :) If we were on the phone brother, I would have said it and chuckled!!

But for those who don't know me, I am joking!

God bless us all as we go forth today in Jesus name!
Lisa

To let you know about to my previous funny statement... I was never able to joke about the end times. I was on it and serious about it and would debate with people on SI about it until the Lord showed me that people have lost friends and family members over their inability to stop arguing about it.

And then to top it off, I felt him ask me how many in the last couple hundred of years have actually "seen" this hard stance belief of their's come to pass? The Lord has a way of getting my attention as I said, none.

I felt him saying, "That's right, none. They lost friends and family because of it and also lost their witness with those people, is that what you want for you life?"

I'm not insinuating that anyone is arguing about it, on the contrary, this is one of the most calmer threads on this subject in years!! That is awesome!

God bless you all,
Lisa

When Darby's interpretation of a pre-trib rapture was first proposed it was taught that the OT saints of Israel would be raised along with the church seven years or so before the end of the age. Alexander Reese's work, "The Approaching Advent of Christ," was published and it demonstrated conclusively that the OT saints would not be raised until the end of the age at the Day of the Lord known in Jesus' day as the "last day" or resurrection day. It was then acknowledged that the common view Darby had presented on this issue had been wrong and the OT saints would indeed be raised at the Day of the Lord at the end of the age. Yet this created another quandry for the pre-trib view which remains until this day. The quandry being that the Christian saints dead or alive are supposed to be caught away and translated seven years or so before the end of the age. This catching away would include the resurrection of dead Christian saints and then seven years later the OT righteous saints are to be raised and glorified. This creates another added pre-trib resurrection not seen in scripture.

The pre-trib view also taught that the Day of the Lord would occur when Christ returned in glory at the end of the age. The 1917 Scofield Bible clearly designates the Day of the Lord as coinciding with Christ's return and the resurrection of the dead. Robert Gundry published "The Church And The Tribulation" in 1973 and poignantly asked how the doctrine of an "imminent" rapture (it can occur at any moment) could be true if Paul wrote that that day (the Day of the Lord) would not occur until the man of sin was revealed. So how can a pre-trib rapture be imminent if certain events have to occur before it can happen? Why would Paul be ressuring the saints regarding the coming of the Day of the Lord if he knew they would be gone and caught away seven years or so before it occurred? Why even worry about it if they were not even going to be here? This caused a deal of embarrasment in the pre-trib camp unknown to most regular going church memjbers who do not participate in academic circles. The solution was to:

Change the Day of the Lord and its timing and place it at the beginning of the tribulation. The Day of the Lord in pre-trib circles is now seven years long and covers the entire breadth of the tribulation. Whereas, when Darby's views first appeared the Day of the Lord was at the end of the age. The Revised Scofield Bible of recent years now has the Day of the Lord covering the final seven years of earth's history. In Jesus's day the Day of the Lord was the final day of the age and did not cover a period of seven years or even three and a half years. These major revisions that were necessary to keep the pre-trib view viable are largely unknown outside of academic circles.

That is interesting, Lysa. I spoke with an elderly pastor a couple of years ago who said something similar.

He also said, "Many people have died after spending a large part of their lives arguing with one another about how exactly they would see the Lord's return."

It is a wonder. I was reading some literature from a century ago that was worded in a way to convey the belief that the Lord would return in that writer's lifetime.

More than a decade ago, there were a couple of people on SermonIndex who were "concerned" for my spiritual condition because I leaned toward a belief in a "gathering" of the Bride prior to the wrath of God being poured upon the entire world.

It wasn't enough that I loved the Lord with my everything, remained in perpetual fellowship through diligent prayer and worship and stayed faithful in reading the Word of God. It wasn't even enough that I was aware of all possible scenarios. Rather, it was seemingly that I had to believe in a post-trib rapture or risk "deception" by the Antichrist and ultimate damnation.

Even a decade later, I still am not totally convinced either way. The only thing that I can say with any degree of integrity is that I am not completely certain about the exact timing and manner by which the eschatological end will come about and how the Lord will return.

I still lean toward the idea that the Lord will gather His bride prior to the wrath of God being poured out -- but I am prepared for all alternatives. If I saw enough to convince me one way or the other, I would embrace it. However, I just don't see enough to declare one view as "truth" with an absolute degree of certainty.

I do like discussing (or reading discussions) about this subject. I like to read the insight and opinions of others who love the Lord -- even if they might not see it the same way.

Christopher, what an excellent post. Thank you. This is much the same way I feel. I find it disheartening when people think someone else is deceived just because their eschatology is slightly different.

Having said that, there are several reasons I believe Christ will take His bride prior to His wrath being poured out on the earth (and I believe before the Tribulation as well).

Here is an interesting verse about the OT saints:

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Matthew 27:51-53

And I want everyone reading this to know I love you regardless of your view of end times events.

Having said that, there are several reasons I believe Christ will take His bride prior to His wrath being poured out on the earth (and I believe before the Tribulation as well).

Are they too same? I always thought that great tribulation will be a time of great persecution of christians. Lord will allow his Church to go through it. It will be like the time of Noah for unbelievers.

Wrath of God will be poured out after the Church is taken with him. I do not believe it is part of great tribulation that Jesus spoke about.

Even with a post trib, pre wrath position, one would have to believe the rapture of the saints and the Second Coming are two separate events, hence, two raptures.

...Even with a post trib, pre wrath position, one would have to believe the rapture of the saints and the Second Coming are two separate events, hence, two raptures....

From page 15 of the booklet (pg 5 of the pdf link) states that a Jesuit in 1747 came up with the two raptures....
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Bridging the Gulf

The Jesuits, owing to their vicious principles and their encouragement of treachery and violence making orderly and peaceable government impossible, have been expelled sooner or later from almost every civilized country in which they have set foot; their record covers about a hundred orders issued by different governments for their expulsion. When they were expelled from Chile, Emanual Lacunza (pronounced Lacuntha), a Chilean of Spanish descent, who had become a member of the order in 1747 at the age of sixteen, and had risen to be superintendent of the Noviciates, training them zealously in the principles of Jesuitry, came and settled in the north of Italy, where he devoted the remainder of his days to writing a book entitled, "The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty." Lacunza was of course, steeped in the current Jesuit teaching that the appearance and reign of Antichrist was still in the future and to this he added a touch of his own, namely, - that in order to make room for all the events which he anticipated, at the coming of Christ there would have to be a period of time between the rapture of the saints and the actual appearance of the Messiah in His Glory. He conceived the idea that:

"When the Lord returns from heaven to earth upon His coming forth from heaven, and much before His arrival at the earth, He will give His orders, and send forth His command as King and God omnipotent: 'with a shout (in the Vulgate jussu i.e. 'by the order') with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.' At this voice of the Son of God, those who shall hear it, shall forthwith arise, as saith the evangelist St. John (chapter 5:25) 'those who hear shall live.'" (3)

Here is the germ out of which sprang the whole theory that Christ was to come TWICE, once for His saints, and again some time later with His saints.
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The whole booklet can be found at
http://thelivingtorah.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/secretrapture.pdf

and the blogger opinion about the booklet:

"The history of the rapture is probably going to be one of the more captivating things you’ve ever read. Stuff like a Jesuit priest masquerading as a Rabbi who wasn’t found out until a family member had a divine appointment with destiny and unwittingly unravels the mystery. Follow a trail of religious men who passed the rapture from it’s origin, spanning nearly 500 years. This book will change the way you look at the rapture and religion in general… the TRUTH is not for the faint of heart.

Shalom & Blessings,

Baruch"

Has anyone read the article I mentioned? It gives convincing evidence that Darby was not influenced by the Jesuits at all.

Did you know it has been the official position of the Roman Catholic Church for centuries that the rapture will happen after the Tribulation?

If God takes His Church in a pre-trib rapture why would He then immediately begin to rebuild it as multitudes more will be saved during the tribulation? If the Lord removes His church before a final tribulation because they are not destined for wrath then what of those saved during the tribulation? If tribulation believers are saved and pass from death to life, from wrath to pardon, why will they have to endure the tribulation and its wrath? Shouldn't they be removed also the moment they are saved?

Why is it unreasonable to think that the Church will represent Christ to a unbeleiving world during the tribulation? What would be the purpose of God molding and shaping His church to a corporate fullness not seen since the days of the early church and make it into a church moving again in signs and wonders and then remove it at the most critical moment before that church can really be used?

The best advice I ever got in pursuit of eschatological understandfing was to find out what the Day of the Lord is and when it occurs because all else is built around this. All roads lead to the Day of the Lord and it is the hub of OT and NT eschatology. It coincides with and is simultaneous with the resurrection at the last day and can easily be coordinated with the last trumpet. The confusion that expresses itself along the lines of, "I'm not sure there is a correct view etc.," is not scriptural and is not something that the early church ever advocated. I discovered that finding out what is the Day of the Lord and when does it occur can go a long way in clearing up ambiguity and can be a great aid in helping determine the divinely ordained role that the church is called on to play during the last events of this present age.

Blessings.

Here is the link: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Rebuttal-statement-Left-Behind-or-Led-Astray.pdf

bearmaster said: "For it would seem that this is the finest hour for the bride of Christ. To be the victorious overcome in the great tribulation."

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" Revelation 13:7

Whichever position you hold, I think it would be a good idea to read this article by David Wilkerson. Remember, Jesus said be ready.

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/may2011/davidd52.htm

This is whole lot to grasp and understand, but it is the only way Revelations, Matthew 24:29-31 and 1st Thess 4:13-18 have come to make complete sense and lead the Body of Christ of whom I am a part, logically to the conclusion of The pre-tribulation rapture.

Written by the Author of; http://daniel11truth.com/proof-of-rapture.htm

""" Proof of the Rapture (pre-trib) I was inspired to write this by an e-mail from someone who was trying to talk about the rapture to a couple of Catholics and they had no knowledge of the concept at all. I also encountered an old acquaintance recently who was interested in Biblical prophecy and end times but never believed in the pre-trib rapture. He said every place in the Bible that people pointed to for the rapture, he considered it the 2nd coming. On this page, I plan to give everyone an easy way to explain the rapture and prove that it’s different from the 2nd coming. """

Go to the sight above and finished his revelation. I could go on and on with this, but he makes it come to and understanding of The Seals, The Great Tribulation (past), The Bowls and the Trumpets, Tribulation, future, logical and not manipulate the scriptures to make the pre-tribulation understood for me without doubt, but settled in the Word and for me.

In Christ: Phillip

Blaine,

As I look at these verses from Rev. 20:4-5 I see two resurrections, even of the Believer.

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

The text says those who were beheaded, and those who did not worship the beast or took his mark to be the ones resurrected who will rule with Jesus for a thousand years.

We can read verses that would indicate when Jesus returns everything will end with the judgment and that is it. I see in those verses a brief overview with few details whereas Revelation backs up and shares the details missing elsewhere.

And....I suspect moderns are just as confused as the Jews were when Jesus came the first time: full of unanswered questions and the answers put forth satisfied only a few.

My understanding.

Sandra

But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age. (Daniel 12:13)

A lot is contained in Daniel but the main point of the revelations given to him was to decribe events leading up to the end of the age (the Day of the Lord). He then is reassured that he will rise again for his portion at the end of the age. Under the proposed scenario of the pre-trib view, Daniel should rise seven or so years before the end of the age when the Christian saints dead and alive are raised to met Christ in the air. At ths point dead Christian believers are to be physically resurrected as they meet the Lord in the air along with living believers. If Daniel died in faith while looking ahead then he should be resurrected at his point. Yet the scripture of Daniel 12:13 clearly states in the most clear way possible that Daniel will be raised at the end of the age and not seven or even three and a half years before. Who is correct?

A study of the history of the pre-trib view shows that Darby and his early associates taught that OT saints would be raised seven years before the end of the age. Scholarly analysis and exegetical criticism of their view finally forced an admittal from them that OT saints would be raised at the end of the age coinciding with the last trumpet. This happened around the 1930s so for the first hundred years or so the pre-trib view taught error that OT saints would be resurrected seven years before the end of the age. But even this admittal and basic change in the view left a large quandry. If Daniel died looking ahead in faith he should be raised along with the Christian saints which the pre-trib view says will occur seven years before the end of the age. Yet the pre-trib view now advocates that Daniel will be raised at the end of the age thus contradcting their own view that all saints living and dead who died in faith will be raised seven years before the end of the age. So which is it?

I definitely think the emphasis on the end times should be that we are waiting, watching, and ready for the return of Jesus. What difference does it make regarding what we believe in eschatology if we are not obeying this command. If you wind up being absolutely, 100% accurate in your theology on this, and yet, fail to be ready for His return, Him finding you not faithfully working, then your theology was useless.

That being said, I was raised to be pre-trib. I came to know the Lord after watching the Left Behind movie, believe it or not...lol.

However, I am solidly post-trib now. I remember what happened. I kept hearing other believers (all pre-trib ladies and gentlemen) using verses regarding the pre-trib rapture interchangeably with verses regarding the 2nd coming. It was frustrating to me, because those were 2 separate events and should not be merged together. So in my effect to sort the scriptures being used into 2 distinct evens, I came to the belief that the rapture was, in fact, going to occur at the 2nd coming! I really hadn't dealt much with post-trib theology at that point.

I must admit, many of the arguments for post-trib are not very good, because they are poorly constructed (definitely not saying that about anything on this thread). Many of the arguments for pre-trib are very well thought out. However, every time I just try to read the scriptures, I feel I have to do theological gymnastics in order to justify pre-trib. I have to use more negative arguments (such as the church doesn't appear past Rev. 3:14, etc) to prove it. I also struggled with the apparent origins of the pre-trib view, as this thread addresses.

One of the dangers of pre-trib thinking, in my opinion, is that IF the anti-Christ does rear his ugly head, they may be a little slow to recognize him until about 3.5 years into the tribulation. At that point, they will be ill prepared; however, God is faithful and He will keep them.

One of the dangers of post-trib thinking, in my opinion, is that we may call foul on someone who could possible be the anti-Christ, when they are in fact, not.

The ONLY way we will know we are in the great tribulation, for sure, is when the abomination that causes desolation is in the Temple.

My 2 cents (which have depreciated, apparently lol)

I would warn against holding such an attitude that whether we accept or reject this doctrine doesn't really matter. We are called to TRUTH because Christ IS TRUTH. Anything untrue is not of Christ and has no part in Him. Can we walk in truth and hold onto something that is untrue? Maybe in part but not fully and isn't that we strive for? To walk FULLY in the Truth?

When we hold onto to things that are not true we will be opposed to Christ in those areas in our hearts and Christ will be unable to lead us into further truth. You may be able to progress in other areas where your heart is in tune with Christ but not completely.

I think in talking with those who hold to a pre-trib view (any such terminology makes me sick, I only know Christ is coming again) I have seen an ulterior motive. A need for their God to meet a certain standard they have and act in a certain way equal to the qualities and traits of God they themselves have established in their heart. "How could God let us go through the wrath to come?" and, especially "I as a parent would never let my child go through that..." (which I often hear) are particularly revealing to the thoughts and intents of the heart, often unaware to the well meaning individual. But the Word is living and active and cuts through it all. Such an individual who has a such a view of God and what he owes us is, from what I see in Christ, already living in a state of untruth in regards to the order of this world and the structure God has created within it and the things that must come to pass and our role in bearing to the truth of it.

You guys talk of Finney and Scofield and Darby. I don't know these men but I do know Christ. I also have access to the writings of those who knew Him, who saw Him and heard Him speak. Forget those men, we do not build our faith on the writings of such (or are we now Catholic?). Get your bible and read it.

If you were born on a deserted island and only had a bible to read with no outside influence to distort your view do you really think you would come up with any idea of a secret first second coming? Honestly?

My views have been to view as people on the pre trib as brothers in Christ but when you called Leaven in the church because I simply believe in the Post Tribulation View.

I have studied the view so much I find it fictional to believe in the Pre Trib view.

A common views as the church is never mentioned after Revelation 6 an argument from silence

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore*, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or* our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

I have been thinking, what if there is a fake rapture where Christians who are deceived thinking that the anti Christ will show up and Christians think that it is Jesus.

It could be possible to engineer a fake rapture.

In verse 3 of 2 Thess 3, it says let no man decieve you, which means people will be deceived on this subject.

The Greek word is apostasy
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/apostasia.html

It does not refer to the Rapture as people like Dr Thomas Ice from the Pre Tribulation Rapture Centre (http://www.pre-trib.org/)

jos.22.22 ] ο [THE] θεος [GOD] θεος [GOD] εστιν [IS] κυριος [THE LORD] και [AND] ο [THE] θεος [GOD] θεος [GOD] κυριος [THE LORD] αυτος [HE] οιδεν [KNOWS] και [AND] ισραηλ [ISRAEHL] αυτος [HE] γνωσεται [SHALL KNOW] ει [IF] εν [IN] αποστασια [DEFECTION] επλημμελησαμεν [WE TRESPASSED] εναντι [BEFORE] ημας [US] εν [IN] ταυτη [THIS]

Dickey, Joshua. The Complete Koine-English Reference Bible: New Testament, Septuagint and Strong's Concordance (Kindle Locations 204512-204522). . Kindle Edition.

2ch.29.19 ] και [AND] παντα [ALL] τα [THE] σκευη [VESSELS] α [WHICH] εμιανεν [DEFILED] αχαζ [ACHAZ] ο [THE] βασιλευς [KING] εν [IN] τη [THE] βασιλεια [KINGDOM] αυτου [HIS] εν [IN] τη [THE] αποστασια [DEFECTION] αυτου [HIS] ητοιμακαμεν [EHTOIMAKAMEN] και [AND] ηγνικαμεν [EHGNIKAMEN] ιδου [BEHOLD] εστιν [IS] εναντιον [BEFORE] του [THE] θυσιαστηριου [ALTAR] κυριου [OF THE LORD]

Dickey, Joshua. The Complete Koine-English Reference Bible: New Testament, Septuagint and Strong's Concordance (Kindle Locations 259038-259049). . Kindle Edition.

je.2.19 ] παιδευσει [SHALL CORRECT] σε [YOU] η [THE] αποστασια [DEFECTION] σου [YOU] και [AND] η [THE] κακια [EVIL] σου [YOU] ελεγξει [SHALL REPROVE] σε [YOU] και [AND] γνωθι [KNOW] και [AND] ιδε [SEE] οτι [THAT] πικρον [BITTER] σοι [IN YOU] το [THE] καταλιπειν [TO LEAVE] σε [YOU] εμε [ME] λεγει [SAYS] κυριος [THE LORD] ο [THE] θεος [GOD] σου [YOU] και [AND] ουκ [NO] ευδοκησα [EUDOKEHSA] επι [FOR] σοι [IN YOU] λεγει [SAYS] κυριος [THE LORD] ο [THE] θεος [GOD] σου [YOU]

Dickey, Joshua. The Complete Koine-English Reference Bible: New Testament, Septuagint and Strong's Concordance (Kindle Locations 312913-312930). . Kindle Edition.

The problem with this verse is to try and equite the rapture with apostasy is bad hermeneutics

That is one of the problems is that I find with the Pre Tribulation View is tends to use Typology to justify something doctrinally rather than looking at the clear and plain meaning.

When you have simple Didactic Teaching on a subject.

The famous passage is

2 Thessalonian 4

1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9 But as touching brotherly love ye need* not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

My problem with quoting this passage is what people tend to do is take it out of context

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child*; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 And to esteem them very highly* in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15 See that none* render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
25 Brethren, pray for us.
26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. [The first epistle to the Thessalonians was written from Athens.]

The interesting thing it says The Day of The Lord shall come as a thief in the night but in verse 5 it talks about Children of light knowing it will

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

So it does not come as some unknown hour

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_of_the_Lord
The day of the Lord is also mentioned in

Is 13
Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: 8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. 9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. 14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land. 15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. 16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. 17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. 18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there. 21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there. 22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

Zephaniah 1
14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. 15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, 16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. 17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Ezekiel 30:3-4

"For the day is near, Even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, A time of doom for the nations. "A sword will come upon Egypt, And anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt, They take away her wealth, And her foundations are torn down.

Joel 3:12-14

Let the nations be aroused And come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat, For there I will sit to judge All the surrounding nations. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe Come, tread, for the wine press is full; The vats overflow, for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision

it is especially interesting as the Is 13 passage mentions

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

As the very same thing is mentioned in Matt 24.

Matthew 24English Standard Version (ESV)
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple

24 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
Signs of the End of the Age

3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them, "See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away[a] and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The Abomination of Desolation

15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
The Coming of the Son of Man

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Lesson of the Fig Tree

32 "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
No One Knows That Day and Hour

36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[b] but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant,[c] whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 47 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants[d] and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I will go in depth about Matt 24 as Is 13 and Matt 24 correspond.

This is the problem that I find with the Pretribulation rapture as with the 2 Thessalonians 4 Passage it talks about a trumpet

16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The Resurrection of Christ

15 Now I would remind you, brothers,[a] of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you””unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
The Resurrection of the Dead

12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in Christ we have hope[b] in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For "God[c] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, "all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? 30 Why are we in danger every hour? 31 I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day! 32 What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” 33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals.”[d] 34 Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.
The Resurrection Body

35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being”;[e] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[f] also bear the image of the man of heaven.

This passage mentions the Resurrection and this is what I hate is the dissociation with the fact of Resurrection and Rapture and also in the fact of this passage in Corinthians it gives us more details such as this is the Last Trumpet.

Then we have a problem you have seven trumpets before the last trumpet,I have heard people say this is a likening to the Yom Kippur seven trumpets, This another problem as there is no reference to this.
In the Talmud you have four references to the beginning of the year, there is not even an agreement on the beginning of the year in the Talmudic writings. I am trying to find a reference !

In the Bible the time references are not from Yom Kippur but from Passover. When it says in the Year and the Month. The actual date is.

The seventh trumpet is mentioned in revelation

Revelation 11
The Seventh Trumpet

15Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” 16And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying,

"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign.
18The nations raged,
but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

19Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings,c peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

This is the thing with the Post Tribulation Resurection I find it is consistent I can look at Matt 24, 2 Thess 2 and other passages as I find it consistent.

Another problem that I find is the fact that 2 Resurrections are mentioned in scripture it can either be one or the other. I have people said that the first resurrection happens in phases and that the rapture is just a phase of the Pre tribulation rapture.This is absurd as there is only two resurrections mentioned in scripture.

The other problem is in Matt 24
Matt 24
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

In Matt 24
it basically says that as the lightning comes to the east and to the west so shall the sign of the coming of the son of man coming shall be it does not talk about a secret rapture it talks about false christs and false prophets deceiving even the elect.

When it talks about the Lightning from the east unto the west it is something that everyone will see. To say that there is a rapture you have to put it with the false Christ and false prophets it also says after the tribulation of those days.

My problem is aswell is you might aswell only read up to chapter 6 in Revelation and forget the rest as things such as the mark of the beast or the concern for Israel among pre tribulation people is vague when you know that a holocaust which will make the holocaust look like a picnic.

Why be concerned with the end times I have been personally interested as the bible literally becomes a history book why study the mark of the beast if you are not involved in it. It is absurd!

I have read the Dead Sea Scroll

War Scroll
On the standard of the Hundred they shall write, From God comes the Might of War against All Sinful Flesh, together with the name of the chief of the Hundred and the names of the leaders of its Fifties. On the standard of the Fifty they shall write, The Stand of the Ungodly is Ended by the Power of God, together with the name of the chief of the Fifty and the names of the leaders of its Tens. [5] On the standard of the Ten they shall write, Praised be God on the Ten-stringed Harp, together with the name of the chief of the Ten and the names of the nine men under his command. When they march out to battle they shall write on their standards, Truth of God, Justice of God, Glory of God, Judgement of God, followed by the whole ordered list of their names. When they approach for battle they shall write on their standards, Right Hand

Vermes, Geza. The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English: Complete Edition (Kindle Locations 3625-3632). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

I find it absurd if they got it wrong about the Apocalypse in the Dead Sea Scrolls as I can show you other passages in the dead sea scrolls where it is so man centred and I find it so abhorrent, how about North Korea where persecution is happening right now.

The early church talk about it being a time of purification of the church.

If they got it wrong in the first century time period about Jesus why cant people get the details wrong today. They will only come to light closer to the time.

Didache

Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord. Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: "The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him." Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

Anonymous. The Didache: The Original Greek Text with Four English Translations (Kindle Locations 442-447). Kindle Edition.

Anonymous. The Didache: The Original Greek Text with Four English Translations (Kindle Locations 438-442). Kindle Edition.

Justin Martyr

Chapter CX A portion of the prophecy already fulfilled in the Christians: the rest shall be fulfilled at the second advent And when I had finished these words, I continued: "Now I am aware that your teachers, sirs, admit the whole of the words of this passage to refer to Christ; and I am likewise aware that they maintain He has not yet come; or if they say that He has come, they assert that it is not known who He is; but when He shall become manifest and glorious, then it shall be known who He is. And then, they say, the events mentioned in this passage shall happen, just as if there was no fruit as yet from the words of the prophecy. O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with

glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel; and we who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,”” our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,”” and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified; and sitting each under his vine, i.e., each man possessing his own married wife. For you are aware that the prophetic word says, And his wife shall be like a fruitful vine.’ Now it is evident that no one can terrify or subdue us who have believed in Jesus over all the world. For it is plain that, though beheaded, and crucified, and thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and all other kinds of torture, we do not give up our confession; but the more such things happen, the more do others and in larger numbers become faithful,

and worshippers of God through the name of Jesus. For just as if one should cut away the fruit-bearing parts of a vine, it grows up again, and yields other branches flourishing and fruitful; even so the same thing happens with us. For the vine planted by God and Christ the Saviour is His people. But the rest of the prophecy shall be fulfilled at His second coming. For the expression, He that is afflicted [and driven out],’ i.e., from the world, [implies] that, so far as you and all other men have it in your power, each Christian has been driven out not only from his own property, but even from the whole world; for you permit no Christian to live. But you say that the same fate has befallen your own nation. Now, if you have been cast out after defeat in battle, you have suffered such treatment justly indeed, as all the Scriptures bear witness; but we, though we have done no such [evil acts] after we knew the truth of God, are testified to by God, that, together with the most righteous, and only spotless and sinless Christ, we are taken away out of the earth. For Isaiah cries, Behold how the righteous perishes, and no man lays it to heart; and righteous men are taken away, and no man considers it.’

The Church Fathers. The Complete Ante-Nicene & Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers Collection: 3 Series, 37 Volumes, 65 Authors, 1,000 Books, 18,000 Chapters, 16 Million Words (Kindle Locations 8595-8603). Catholic Way Publishing. Kindle Edition.

the end of the world and the eternal kingdom of Christ. The Gnostics are refuted, those tools of Satan, who invent another Father different from the Creator 1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.” It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight.
After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord. For that the kingdom must be divided, and thus come to ruin, the Lord [declares when He] says: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.” It must be, therefore, that the kingdom, the city, and the house be divided into ten; and for this reason He has already foreshadowed the partition and division [which shall take place]. Daniel also says particularly, that the end of the fourth kingdom consists in the toes of the image seen by Nebuchadnezzar, upon which came the stone cut out without hands; and as he does himself say: "The feet were indeed the one part iron, the other part clay, until the stone was cut out without hands, and struck the image upon the iron and clay feet, and dashed them into pieces, even to the end.” Then afterwards, when interpreting this, he says: "And as thou sawest the feet and the toes, partly indeed of clay, and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided, and there shall be in it a root of iron, as thou sawest iron mixed with baked clay. And the toes were indeed the one part iron, but the other part clay.” The ten toes, therefore, are these ten kings, among whom the kingdom shall be

The Church Fathers. The Complete Ante-Nicene & Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers Collection: 3 Series, 37 Volumes, 65 Authors, 1,000 Books, 18,000 Chapters, 16 Million Words (Kindle Locations 18852-18860). Catholic Way Publishing. Kindle Edition. The Church Fathers. The Complete Ante-Nicene & Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers Collection: 3 Series, 37 Volumes, 65 Authors, 1,000 Books, 18,000 Chapters, 16 Million Words (Kindle Locations 18843-18852). Catholic Way Publishing. Kindle Edition.

I want to send my love to all people who believe in the pre tribulation view as this doctrine is not a salvation issue as our church has made it this. As I have to find a new church, pray for me.

Just a word of caution to everyone here that holds to a sectarian attitude. I know people that are calvinists and arminians, pre and post tribulational, catholic, baptist, pentecostal etc. The only thing that matters to me is that a person is born again. When we elevate our positions on certain doctrinal matters to be binding on others, we are guilty of dividing the body of Christ. God bless you all.

Martyr,

I agree with you to a point. How do you teach a child that fire is hot? You chuck them them in the burn pile, right? No. There is such a thing as growth. There is such a thing as sanctification. There is such a thing as learning. No one knows it all. Part of growing up in church is that many believers have the lines of doctrine drawn for them. That is what they have been taught. It is okay for them to defend what they believe as long as we are seeking the Lord and searching the scriptures. There are so many things that I believe that I knew were true when I came to know the Lord but did not have the firm foundation to back it up in the scriptures. There are also a few things that I have come to believe that I was not taught, but learned through study. There are yet more things to be verified and more things to change. Jesus is in charge of that. He's in charge of that for you and for me and every other believer. Some glorious day we'll all be like Him and Know Him as we are known, but for know we see in a mirror, darkly.

I believe that post trib is true, but I am not going to chuck my brothers and sisters who disagree in the fire to show them.

Lastly, do you think that some Jews had a pre conceived notion about what their coming Messiah would be like? All of them did. Which of them or even the disciples understood the scriptures perfectly BEFORE the resurrection? None of them. Jesus didn't match anyone's understanding of the Messiah. Until prophecy is fulfilled, we will never have it absolutely right. I promise you that if you tried to stretch every prophecy about the end times onto a calendar you'd have big gaps during even the tribulation.. God didn't give us a play by play.

Do you suppose Paul would have let a doctrine concerning our very hope and the consummation of our faith be misconstrued and taught as such? Did not Jesus (as did Isaiah) very strongly upbraid the Pharisees for passing the traditions of men down as the teachings of God? Are we not to rebuke, upbraid and correct with the scriptures?

I too agree, one needs to grow in faith. The Spirit GUIDES us into all truth. I do not blame the flock I blame the derelict shepherds who without heed and careful inquiry of the Spirit of Christ have passed down something without knowledge and hindered those in Christ by giving them something from man.

I do not mean to convert anyone to a post trib doctrine, If I seek the conversion of men it is a conversion to the living word of God the revelation of His wisdom available to us in the scriptures. Yes there is growth, yes they have the right to set forth their arguments but as someone who loves and seeks Truth I have the right, the necessity, the RESPONSIBILITY to guide those who are seeking away from the doctrines of men towards the living God. Even right doctrines spoken from a spirit married to falsehood can lose the life given to them. These are they who teach the scriptures and not possessing the keys are unable to enter into it's life and they hinder those who also seek to enter.

It's not a matter of pre-mid-post trib it's a matter of pursuing truth and allowing God to lead us, not man. Men who create such doctrines do so from a need that arises in their own heart (If your eye is clear you will be full of light, if your eye is darkness the light that is in you will be darkness Luke 11). These doctrines find men who, having the same need as its author cling to them. If it filled that place for the author it's going to fill it for someone with that same need. But the scriptures were written from a pure heart and do not truly speak to any motives though men wrest them to fit such. Why did Paul long for us to be made complete in Him!! Because such completeness allows us to see truth!! Otherwise our hearts, deceptive above all else, trick us and make us see what is false. See the section of scripture from luke 11 I quoted above. (I Forget the verse number)

Many die incomplete in Christ. The idea that all will be led into truth eventually they just need time does not conform to truth. We all have a choice to make, but how can they know if they have not been told? Whether they choose to follow truth or harbor their own ideas or doctrines is their choice but let the truth be known. What that truth does is not up to me.

I agree about the end times. It's is difficult and revelation is filled with allegory and symbols, many of which are hard to discern and should probably be left alone until their fulfillment. In the meantime I urge my brothers and sisters to turn away from fables and the commandments of men and heed the plain simple words of Jesus who will one day come back the same way he departed.

"The idea that all will be led into truth eventually they just need time does not conform to truth."

Philippians 1:3-6 says this:

"I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ"

It's an ongoing work, brother. And He who began it, will finish it in all His children. Eventually, every believer dies (except for those who are alive and remain when the Lord returns!). Lies cease at that point. Death is not the end. We have eternal life.

Yes Paul did feel that way about the brethren at Colossae. Unfortunately he did not feel that way about the brethren at Corinth (2 for. 11:2) whom he felt the need to correct lest they continue in error. Or Peter (Galatians 2:11-14) or the church at Galatia (the whole book of Galatians) or the Hebrew believers (Hebrews 2:12 and 6:4-8).

We need to hold fast our faith (hebrews 3:14) lest we be like those who weren't brought to completion by God (as you put it) such as in 1 Timothy 1:19-20.

Brother I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying there is a bigger picture and the scripture continually warns of falling short and not completing the race. There is a very real responsibility on our oart, God is not simply going to fix our mistakes and make us perfect. We need to be in accord with Him and be willing.

Edit: would also like to add 1 Timothy 1:3-7. I wonder how people felt about Timothy taking over God's work and actually pleading with fellow believers to leave false teachings and thoughts. And as that scripture says it is from love, that all may be brought to completion in christ.

Amen brother!

I remember hearing John MacArthur dismissing as nonsense the idea of the rapture and 2nd coming of Christ being the same event happening at the end of the Great Tribulation. He said that the idea of the saints going up into the sky to meet Jesus only to come back down immediately made no sense. I don't think he thought it out long enough. The Earth is a sphere with people living all over it. So if Jesus comes down toward Earth in the vicinity of Jerusalem, if we are to be gathered to Him, we are not going to glide 6 inches above the ground all the way to Jerusalem. We would have to dodge skyscrapers, trees, telephone poles, etc. We will have glorified bodies at that point and can do just fine in thin air as we fly to Jerusalem to meet Him. Also, we will be up in the air with Jesus as the giant sword comes out of His mouth and consumes His enemies on the Earth. We will be safe with Him. Then we come down to the ground.

So I, like many here, believe that the rapture happens at the 2nd coming of Christ at the end of the Great Tribulation. Jesus says we will not know the day or hour of His coming so I don't think it will be exactly 7 years to the day after the beginning of the Great Tribulation, but I do think we can know sort of when it's close. I would not rest at ease or put off getting right with God because the Antichrist hasn't been revealed or Babylon the Great hasn't been destroyed yet. A person can die at any time and will have to give account to God for his or her life. And this is my biggest problem with believing in the rapture occurring at the 2nd coming at the end of the Great Tribulation: We are saying that Jesus CAN'T come back until those things written in Revelation (before the Battle of Armageddon) have happened. I like the fact that pre-tribbers let people know that Jesus can come back at any moment, so be ready, etc. I'm just being honest in how I assess and see a weakness in my own view regarding eschatology.

Whether Christ comes before the Great Tribulation or at the end of it, we should live our lives soberly and not waste time in dissipation. Pursue the reason why God pursued you till we all become conformed to the image of Christ.

- Daniel