Corrie Ten Boom Warns of the Dangers of Pretrib Teaching

Let each one be fully convinced in his own mind.

I don't think a unanimous consensus will be reached on this one. We need to encourage one another to prepare for Christ's return, spread the gospel and be found unspotted from this world for when He does return. Meanwhile tribulation, persecution and opposition is the norm for all those who desire to be godly and love His appearing.

Post Trib View SAINTS: "I don't want to believe in the pre-trib rapture because I need to stay sharp, focused and ready for whatever happens. I don't want to be caught off guard.

Pre Trib view SAINTS: "I believe in the rapture because it keeps me sharp, focused, ready for what's coming and I don't want to be caught off guard".

Hmm...

Is it possible to believe in the immanency of Christ's return and still have room in your theology for persecution, suffering, tribulation at the hands of men?

I do see your point brother Blaine. if the teaching on the Pre-Trib rapture offers people the idea that persecution and tribulation is reserved for the Great Tribulation ONLY and that Christians can hope to escape all of that in the rapture, then I agree this is an error to be avoided.

For Jesus Himself said: "Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me." John 15:20

"Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution." - 2 Timothy 3:12

However, I would say that not heeding the entirety of scripture is to blame on this one, and not the doctrine of the rapture itself. I don't find the doctrine of the rapture to promise escape from suffering, tribulation or persecution in general. it does however promise a blessed hope to escape the wrath of God poured out on the world during the Great Tribulation.

Those who come to the Lord during this time are in for major persecution and martyrdom, and the prayers from under the altar are for this very reason - "How Long O Lord!!"

God bless and keep His church and keep her faithful to the end.

Hi all,
Alot of times when their is a discussion about the tribulation Corrie Ten Boons name comes up as an anti Pre Trib voice but their are problems with that.
1.Taking her word for it is experential doctrine.
Also from Corrie's point of view the doctrine comes from her experiences not from the word of God which is the benchmark.
2.Again it assumes that sufferings and tribulations are the same thing as a specific period of time called the "The Great Tribulation".They are not and this arguement is just a red herring.Just because she did not escape tribulations has zero to with the Great Tribulation.
You could say if thats the case well Billy Graham has escaped tribulation therefore pre tribulation is correct.
3.How do you quantify destroying the Church?and who quantifies it.?
4.Also like any doctrine if the doctrine is not taught correctly it can have a bad outcome.For example if I taught a Post Trib teaching that said you have to keep earning your salvation that would have a devastating outcome.It doesnt mean Post Tribulation is incorrect but the teaching was incorrect.
Yours staff

Hi ThyKingcome
PreTribulation does not offer anybody the idea that persecution or tribulaton are reserved for the Great Tribulaton.
The logic of the post is totally faulty.
A.Pretribulation can be taught incorrectly therefore Pretribulation is incorrect.That logic is absurd.The same way that Post tribulation can be taught incorrectly therefore Post tribulation is incorrect is absurd.
B.Persecution and the Great Tribulation are totally different things.Just because you go throught persecution does not mean you go through the specific time called the "The Great Tribulation"
Billy Graham didnt die from persecution or was martyred for Christ doesnt mean that pre tribulation is correct,doesnt prove one thing ,the same way that Corrie Ten Boom was persecuted severely doesnt prove one thing except her love for Christ,Yours staff

.Persecution and the Great Tribulation are totally different things.

I hold the post trib view because that is what any honest person who reads the scriptures without any external influence will come up with. But I am not interested in debating on my view, because whether you believe in Post or Pre Trib, if we are not waiting for his return, we will not be considered.

But I am trying to understand from Pre Trib view people, how you say Great Tribulation and Persecution are 2 different things? I always saw great tribulation as a period of great Persecution. A time when Christians will be cornered by Anti Christ, who will become very evident. A persecution that will be worse than anything that has even happened to Christians.

Hi brother Sree,

I think the distinction that is needed between persecution and The Great Tribulation is that The Great Tribulation is a specific 7 year period of time preceding the return of Christ to the earth to establish His reign.

Persecution is something that has always existed as Jesus promised it would when men would persecute, oppose and even violently oppose and kill Christians for the Christian testimony and identity.

Examples of persecution include the martyring of Steven, the apostles, Nero, Bloody Mary and also less violent forms such as labor camps in North Korea (to name a few).

During the Great Tribulation there will also be an intense time of suffering for God's people and the antichrist will make war with the saints. So those who hold to the Pre-trib view are not saying that there will not be persecution during the Great Tribulation. Better stated, the Bible does not teach that Christians are exempt from persecution now or in the time of the Great Tribulation.

Persecution: Man's hatred towards God which is meted out in attack on Christians (ex: Martyrs)

God's Wrath: God's justice meted out on men for wickedness and rejecting Christ (ex: Sodom & Gomorrah, The Flood, 2nd half of Great Tribulation)

Is this helpful to you brother?

During the Great Tribulation there will also be an intense time of suffering for God's people and the antichrist will make war with the saints.

how is it any different from what I have posted? I also believe great tribulation is the time of great persecution. Yes I know Jesus spoke about a specific time period before his return, but it is persecution in a different magnitude.

So those who hold to the Pre-trib view are not saying that there will not be persecution during the Great Tribulation.
Better stated, the Bible does not teach that Christians are exempt from persecution now or in the time of the Great Tribulation.

If this is the Pre Trib view then how can Christians exist during the great tribulation if the Lord has taken them already during rapture? I thought pre trib view does not believe that Christians will be involved during great tribulation.
I

Brother,

The belief is that the church is taken out before the Great Tribulation, but then the 144,00 Jews that are sealed are sent into the world to preach the gospel, and there will be tribulation saints that come to the Lord (Jews and Gentiles) during this time. These are the ones spoken of being persecuted and martyred during the Great Tribulation.

Hope this helps brother. I know you didn't want to dig into this one but was just trying to help clarify so you have accurate information on what distinguishes the views.

Hi Bearmaster
What you are missing is =
Im not debating whether post or trib view is correct or not!I am saying the post and conclusions of the post are fundamentally flawed.We cant base our trib view on the word of Corrie but on the word of God.
Address the objections I have made ,urs staff

The belief is that the church is taken out before the Great Tribulation, but then the 144,00 Jews that are sealed are sent into the world to preach the gospel, and there will be tribulation saints that come to the Lord (Jews and Gentiles) during this time. These are the ones spoken of being persecuted and martyred during the Great Tribulation.

Thank you brother for explaining. Sounds very creative instead of scriptural! But is there a scriptural proof for this assumption that 144K are Jews and they will only (along with their converts) suffer persecution etc?

Brother Sree,

Revelation 7 talks about the sealed Jews and their ministry and also the tribulation saints that are martyred.

God bless you,

Revelation 7 talks about the sealed Jews and their ministry and also the tribulation saints that are martyred.

I do not agree that those are Jews. Jews have nothing special in New Covenant compared to a believing Gentile. Just because it is mentioned that from every tribe of Israel, it does not mean they are Jews. Many things in revelation are symbols. This number 144K and also the tribes are symbols. We cannot take straight forward meaning and form theologies.

Also revelation is not sequential occurrence of events. These are just scenes that John witnessed in heaven.

Dear bro Blaine,

I don't think you will find any verse in the Bible that says "Behold the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation rapture" and then give a verse by verse account of it.

Here I think are some of the most convincing arguments for this view and why so many see it as scripturally valid and not just idealistic. All of these points have scriptures that can go along with them, but since I am not a theologian and am borrowing company time to throw this together, please forgive my brevity.

1.\tImmanency of Christ’s Return
2.\tGod’s Pattern of Removal Before Judgment
3.\tConspicuous absence of the Church in Revelation 4
4.\tJewish Marriage Customs and Imagery
5.\tDistinct descriptions of Christ’s coming Indicate Two separate Events

Immanency of Christ’s Return
The teaching to be ready for Jesus’ sudden return as a thief in the night doesn’t really go too well with Mid & Post views since it’s fair to assume that using Daniel’s prophetic timeline one could calculate His return using the signs in the prophecies themselves.

God’s Pattern of Removal Before Judgment

When God judged Sodom & Gomorrah, Sent the Flood and issued divine judgment for the purpose of inflicting punitive judgment for sin He removed those who were deemed righteous. Of course, the Egyptians were judged while the Israelites were in the land, but God’s intentions were different for sending the plagues. He wasn’t trying to destroy Egypt for their sin, He was demonstrating his authority to release His kids. Also, when the Hebrew young men were preserved in the furnace, this was not an act of judgment from God, but persecution from men (King Nebuchadnezzar).

Conspicuous absence of the Church in Revelation after chapter 4.

Once the church age is complete in chapter 3, you don’t see the church mentioned on the earth again. Instead, you do see worshiping hosts in heaven before the throne, which seem to indicate the church is in heaven at this point.

Jewish Marriage Customs and Imagery
Jesus comforted the disciples the night of His crucifixion with the promise to come again and take them to His Father’s house, that they would be with Him where He has been working. This language is in agreement with how Jewish marriages took place, even down to the specific details of preparing a house attached to the Father’s house, showing up unannounced for the bride. The parable of the 10 virgins lends to this imagery.

Distinct descriptions of Christ’s coming Indicate Two separate Events
The 2nd advent of Christ is so magnificent that it’s almost impossible to wrap our minds around it. I don’t recall the numbers but I remember hearing that there are 4 or 5 times more prophecies for His 2nd coming than His 1st. Not sure on the exact amount. What is significant is that when you read how it will pan out there seems to be two different events described.

1.\tAn appearing of Jesus that is sudden, unannounced and unexpected where He gathers His saints to Him in the clouds, upon which they and the righteous dead receive their resurrected bodies instantly and then return to heaven with Him.
2.\tA coming of Jesus that is calculated, prophetically precise to the day (1260 days after the abomination of desolation) where He comes with saints armed for war to destroy his adversaries and descends upon the mount of olives to establish His rule on the earth for 1000 years.

If the coming I just described is the only coming of Jesus, then why would there be talk of Him coming as a thief to snatch away when He is coming for war? And why would the 10 virgins be asking for entry with the bride when they could go visit Jesus on the earth in Jerusalem?

These are some of the views, distinctions, and arguments for the a Pre-tribulation rapture. This view is not without its weaknesses and does not solve all mysteries and answer all questions.

I am not tethered to a view, but to Scripture, and I do not have a flag on any one hill. I think this view makes the most sense mainly because of the Immanency factor alone, and also the distinction in the appearances of Christ. It’s not a hill that anyone should be dying on, since Jesus died on the only hill that really matters!! I think the best thing we can do with all this is stay sober, stay vigilant, memorize scripture, witness to the lost, stay in fellowship, keep ourselves un-spotted from this World and love His appearing. If we do this, we will doubtless be ready for whatever the Lord brings us to or through.

With His love,
-Kevin

Hi Bearmaster,
No I disagree you are basing your post on what Corrie Ten Boom believes.Corrie Ten Boom is clearly wrong to base a blame on Church problems on the holding of "Pre Tribulation belief" in this instance.Her teaching is very poor on this subject in my opinion but her love is clearly not.
She is clearly speaking from experience and not any definite scriptural insight and you are compounding the problem by basically saying that Corrie Ten Boom said it was the Pre Tribulation belief that was at fault so she must be right.
Again look at Billy Graham,no persecution of this level at least and no tribulation either in his life,lives to 97 years,counciller to many Presidents etc so therefore I can deduce that the Pre Tribulation view is correct??Absolutely not I cant and so its the same with Corrie Ten Boom whether in her opinion the Pre Tribulation view caused a problem or not,urs staff

I would hazard to guess that this topic has been hashed out on this forum close to fifty times. The discussions rarely seem fruitful.

I think that we can all agree that there will be a rapture of the church and that there will be some foolish and some wise when He comes. Some with no oil and some with oil. Some who are religious but dead, some who are alive in Christ. May we be found among the latter group.

In Christ,

Not willing to lead "fruitless discussion..." I have a question. As I understand the Scriptures there is difference between the persecution from Antichrist and the punishment of God. So my simple belief is that Christians will take part in the first but not the second:

Revelation 3:10
[10]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

And the great tribulation is once for Christians the persecution:

Revelation 7:14
[14]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

And for all others there is another great tribulation - the wrath of God:

Zephaniah 2:3
[3]Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

Is this wrong? Simply my thoughts... and feel free to correct me. I just don't see how God can make His own redeemed children partake in His wrath! That can't be...

Hi Bearmaster,
But its clearly you who are not engaging with my points.
I told you from the start I wasnt talking about the plus or minus of the tribulation views.I made that clear.
I was commenting on the false premise that just because a leading Christian like "Corrie Ten Boom" or anyone else like "Billy Graham"(which he hasnt) come out and say things like "look what Pre Tribulation or Post Tribulation have done to the church isnt any kind of basis to say that the doctrine is wrong.
Again I am commenting on the heading of the post and use of "Corrie Ten Boom" to promote a point of view that just because she thinks its wrong doesnt mean its actually wrong,
Again I am not writing to show you that you are in error regarding your pre tribulation view,I am writing to show you that the premise of the post is all faulty and in error,
Yours Staff

/Conspicuous absence of the Church in Revelation after chapter 4.

Once the church age is complete in chapter 3, you don’t see the church mentioned on the earth again. Instead, you do see worshiping hosts in heaven before the throne, which seem to indicate the church is in heaven at this point./

It is said the church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter three so obviously it will not be present on earth during the tribulation. In "The Rapture Question," leading pre-tribulationist Walvoord advocated that no Old Testament tribulation passages make mention of Gentile saints. If none exist, pretribulationists should hardly argue from a mysterious silence in the Old Testament concerning the Church, because the Old Testament remains silent also concerning the Gentile saints whom we know beyond a doubt will be on earth during the tribulation. In other words, if according to the pre-trib view the Church is not mentioned in the Old Testament then Gentile saints during the tribulation are supposedly not mentioned either. But yet we know beyond a doubt Gentile saints will be on earth during the tribulation.

And what makes up the Church, the body of Christ? Isn't it made up of those who have placed their faith in Christ and His atoning blood? Why does Revelation 7:14 mention a great multitude who have made their garments white in the blood of the Lamb during the tribulation? They are in heaven but have just come from the earth during the tribulation but what keeps these from being members of the Church since they have been cleansed by the blood of Christ. If the "church age" and the "age of grace" ends at a pre-trib rapture why is the same exact gospel of grace going to be preached during the tribulation that was preached during the supposedly ended church age?

Why does the pre-trib view maintain that those saved by faith in the sin cleansing blood of the Lamb before a pre-trib rapture are part of the church but those saved by faith in exactly the same way after a pre-trib rapture are not part of the church?

"So, in the tribulation period, the Holy Spirit, who is omnipresent, will do the work of regeneration as He did when God was previously dealing with Israel, but WITHOUT AN INDWELLING MINISTRY (emphasis mine). The present-day indwelling is related to empowerment, to union of believer with believer because of their relation to the Temple of God, but the indwelling is entirely distinct and separated from the work of the Spirit in regeneration. Thus, it should be clearly seen that even though the Spirit is not indwelling in the tribulation, He may still be operative in regeneration."

(J. Dwight Pentecost, "Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology," 1958, Dunham Publishing Co., Ch 17 - "The Relation of the Holy Spirit to Salvation in the Tribulation)

"It should also be evident that if the Spirit of God characteristically indwells the church as well as the individual saint in this age, the removal of the Spirit would involve a dispensational change and the removal of the church as well. While the Spirit will work in the tribulation period, He will follow the pattern of the period before Pentecost rather than this present age of grace. The Spirit of God will return to heaven after accomplishing His earthly work, much as the Lord Jesus Christ returned to heaven after completing His earthly work. In both cases, the work of the Second Person and the Third Person continues, but in a different setting and in a different way."

(John F. Walvoord, "The Rapture Question," The Zondervan Corporation, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1979, Ch 7 - The Work of the Holy Spirit In This Age, p 81)

"But neither Gundry nor anyone else can prove that the baptizing work of the Spirit that forms the church is ever seen in the tribulation. That the Spirit works in the tribulation all agree. That the Spirit indwells all believers in the tribulation is nowhere taught.”

(John Walvoord ”“ "The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation" - p128)

"...the unique Church economy ministries of indwelling, baptizing, sealing. gifting and filling of every believer will be removed with the Church. This is consistent with all that is revealed of the average Tribulation believer's level of spiritual insight, knowledge and maturity."

(Hal Lindsey, "The Rapture", Bantam Books, p 138)

"God will be faithful to His covenant people. The 144,000 Jews who are sealed as witnesses immediately after the Rapture will be granted divine protection so that they may be preserved during the time of Tribulation. God's judgment and wrath will be evident, yes, but so will His mercy. Once the church has been removed, God will act to bring the nation of Israel to faith in Him. The Holy Spirit, while not indwelling believers as He did in the church age, will move to convict and enlighten. The Jews will see miraculous signs of God's work..."

(John Hagee, "The Battle For Jerusalem," Thomas Nelson, Inc., 2001. p 228)

It's a undeniably provable fact that the view that tribulation saints are not to be part of the church nor have the indwelling Spirit even though they place faith in Christ was never seen in the Church before the 1830s. And logically the question therefore arises, is it a correct view based on sound exegesis?

Blessings, for your calm and rational comment. There can be no gain in disputing/debating whether The Bible teaches a post or pre tribulation. One needs to grasp that Corrie Ten Boom went through what she must have felt was the Great Tribulation.

I believe, that as Children of God, we will have various differences in regards to The Word and our understanding of it. However let it not detract from the most important factor, Jesus Christ IS the Son of God and He died on the Cross for our sins. Pre or Post Tribulation is not and never will affect our Salvation.

I did not listen to this video, but I have heard her say how this pre-trib rapture affected the Dutch church. The people assumed they would never experienced any suffering but when WW2 broke out and there was suffering a lot of folks lost faith. I think this is the point. If folks think they will be spared suffering under any context it will destroy their faith when or if it happens. Just a lot like if people believe in the health and wealth gospel and they get cancer. The proponents of this belief will declare these victim must have sinned in order to be effected thus. Not true.

The point is one should know in their hearts that following Christ will put you at serious risk for suffering and God will not spare you from that. He may choose to do so sometimes but don't bank on it.

Sandra

Hi All
Corrie Ten Booms thesis about the pre tribulation is just nonsense.The problem is not pre tribulation but poor teaching of pre tribulation.Most of my friends are pre trib and not one of them think that they will be spared persecution or tribulation if war broke out.They do however believe that they will be taken before tribulation in the time of the The Great Tribulation.
If persecuted believers see themselves as already in the Great Tribulation and mix up tribulation with the time of the Great Tribulation then they have serious theological problems exactly like Corrie Ten Boom.Yours staff

Brother, if I may ask, what will be the difference between "regular" tribulation, and The Great Tribulation? There are brothers and sisters that have had to flee from their homes, suffered the loss of all their goods, beatings, imprisonment, separation from family, and death - all for the sake of Christ. What will they suffer in "The Great Tribulation" that they are not suffering now?

Corrie ten Boom never proposed that tribulation saints would not be part of the Church even though they will be saved by faith in Christ.

Corrie ten Boom never proposed tribulation saints would not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Corrie ten Boom never changed the Day of the Lord from occurring at the end of the tribulation at Christ's return and instead officialy changed it to be seven years long so as to keep the pre-trib view credible. It's a matter of verifiable fact this was done.

Hi Renee
I didnt make the distinction about the the time called the Great Tribulation Christ did.
Christ said it will be a time like no other time unequaled to any other time Matthew 24:21.
So Christ is clearly saying that their is a difference.
Also for brothers and sisters who are suffering tribulation right now like discribed their is and was never a promise of a rapture like what Corrie Ten Boom was saying was been supposedly preached.
The Great Tribulation is a time unequaled in distress and turmoil worldwide not localized in pockets here and there throughout the world.
Also may I say according to alot of people on SI then these people described above by you should be happy and are obviouly not loosing their faith like the "fairweather" Christians Corrie describes.I can therefore deduce that all the Christians above who are enduring these things are Post Tribulation believers because according to Corrie Ten Boom they would have lost faith????The logic of the original post is fundamentally flawed,
Yours staff

Hi Chriswils,
I agree with your post except importantly that Post Tribulation believers do believe it will and does effect your Salvation.They are saying on this post basically that because the rapture didnt happen before ww2 many people lost their Salvation,
Yours staff

Hi
Again if persecuted believers see themselves already in the Great Tribulaion they are wrong in that belief,the world clearly is not in the great tribulation which is a specific time.
urs staff

Hi
I am not heaping reproach on anyone but clearly Corrie Ten Boom is not the bible and I try always to be in the shadow of the Cross like Paul who was in the shadow of the Cross when he had plenty and when he went without.I dont need persecution or tribulation to be in the shadow of the Cross.Sometimes Paul was comfortable and sometimes not.
The real problem here is that Corrie Ten Booms logic is totally flawed and based on experience rather than the bible.
-The rapture didnt happen when she thought it should
-Therefore The pre tribulation rapture is wrong
-The pre trib rapture caused people to loose salvation
Again Billy Graham(nobody challenged this yet I wonder why?)
lived a life of relative comfort as you say,easy life compares to Corrie,does that mean that I can deduce that the Pre Tribulation Rapture is correct?No a hundred times no,
urs staff

Hi Bearmaster
I must tell Paul the Apostle when I see him about Luke 9:23 and that he wasnt been persecuted enough to be in the shadow of the cross all those times that he had plenty,oh and Billy Graham too not enough persecution for you Billy you musnt have been in the shadow of the cross.Sorry Billy you didnt get killed or maimed or get thrown out of your house or even beaten what kind of Christian are you actually?(of course we know hes one of the finest)
Everyones Cross is different as most people know is my point their are times that we have have persecution and times we dont,their are people that are not persecuted much compares to others taken as a whole but all love cross and take up their crosses.
The main point I am making is that Corrie Ten Boom thesis on the Tribulation is bogus and experiential,
Urs staff

Regardless what one believes about the tribulation God is going to have it done his way and no amount of theological wrangling will change that. The atheist and the most astute theologian will all submit to it and no debate will change that.

Any kind of stress that is imposed upon people because of their belief in God/Jesus is a form of tribulation. All you have to do is read the testimonies of people that have witnessed, experienced it first hand. Then there are natural calamities that destroy ones ability to survive naturally - those happen today but worse ones are coming. Ask those who experienced it and they will testify to how they were tested. In the south - where the majority of the people are religious - they will credit God for this act but also credit Him for their survival.

My understanding.

Sandra