Why would our brother not simply say we would be raptured out???

Blaine brother,

Have you seen this video? Just found it today!!! Wow

John MacArthur vs Zac Poonen on the topic of the rapture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhRzCqmFQNc

Tell me what you think!!! :) {edit}I like how he put the two views side by side. I do not know if I would go as far as saying John is deceived. To be honest, I lean that way because of his other stances but to out right say it, I can't. But again, I like the two views side by side.

God bless,
Lisa

I love John Macarthur but I disagree with him on this view, Why did it not happen in the first century? During the time of Paul?

it is so sad he does not reference the scriptures once when referencing his arguments or out of context scripture as he is such a good bible study on every other subject

I agree

I am leaven in my church because i believe differently

To me I have been thinking that the Antichrist could simply have a demonic rapture in which the Antichrist proclaims himself as Christ, there is a thing called Project Bluebeam I do not know whether it is fake or true it may be fake in which Jesus or Buddha and other things are projected onto the sky and some people are taken up in spaceships, then the projected images all merge into one to form the Antichrist.

To me my problem is that people looking for Christ may get the Anti-Christ.

this is only conjuncture and should not be taken seriously as my pre tribulation brethren would not fall for this ruse anyway. As not all pre trib people would.

Matt 24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

My clincher has always been is that the only Christs that are coming before Jesus are false messiahs as it says so in scripture as the lightning comes out of the east unto the west that is not a silent coming.

Another problem has been with my pre tribulation brethren has been why read from Revelation 6 to 20 if it is not for you.

It is like I have been stunted in theology. it always seems to be glossed over. I want so much to learn more, it is almost like a disconnect between learning about 1066 then realising that the Archaeology is quite different to what I have studied.

Not taking the book of Revelation as future history. it is the same analogy that I find looking at 1066 when looking at Revelation.

Concern for Israel when the Jews are going to go through a worse holocaust than the holocaust during the time of tribulation when the church will not be there to help them.

To me it seems funny with these so called maps of the future with neon lights saying we are now entering into the tribulation or there are the two witnesses with labels on them or we are now entering into the millennium time period.

History is alot more messier than we think and thinking that we have a cut and dried approach to are theology is damaging, I love my pre tribulation brethren as I was formally one myself and I love my brethren!

Dom

by bearmaster
Why would our brother not simply say we would be raptured out???

https://youtu.be/dqpbrZ-9lQs

Bro Blaine

Not many come out against pre-trib without a great loss for going against the established rule and reign of that belief. Paul has his other ministries to think about.

Just my opinion!!! :)

I’m heartbroken by this brother. Truly. I am at a loss for why there is such a gross mis-characterization of the rapture doctrine on this site. It has been so misunderstood and demonized needlessly.

I have come across thousands of Christians who hold to the rapture doctrine and I have rarely ever heard any of them use it as an excuse to teach that the Church will not suffer persecution. If I do, I reprove them on the spot, because it is completely unscriptural to think that the Church is not going to suffer because of the belief in the immanent return of Christ.

Jesus promised we would suffer persecution!

If there are teachers teaching falsely that the rapture promises escape from persecution then that is error and should not be received.

I really do believe you may want to reconsider your statement brother. To say the rapture doctrine is leading your brothers and sisters to the gates of hell…so sad and breaks the heart of Jesus who bought and purchased His Church.

Brother, no one is forcing you to believe in the rapture. Please, by the mercies of God cease fire on your brethren!

Most sincerely,

Forget the whole "it creates a false comfort" etc. Those reasons are irrelevant. IS IT TRUTH?? Whether a doctrine leads to good or bad is secondary, those are merely the fruits that point towards it's validity. Let's forgo those and look at the meat of the matter, is it true according to Christ and the scriptures or is a doctrine invented by man?

I said this in another forum and I'll say it again. If you were born on a deserted island with only a bible and no outside influence from any other Christian or church would you really, from the scriptures, come to the conclusion that there is a pre second (a first second) before the second (second second?) coming of Christ? I mean really people, none of you came to that conclusion. You heard it from someone and then you "saw it".

I would like to add, if it is a false teaching how could it be anything other than dangerous? Since when is harboring a lie okay "God will bring them out?" Jesus suffered no false teaching from the "church of His day. To hold onto a lie, even though you are well meaning, only opens doors towards further untruth and away from He who Is TRUTH.

by bearmaster
___I cannot speak for Brother Paul on this matter but I personally believe he left it out for a reason.___

Maybe he left it out sister because it's not found in the Bible.😊

Even Art Katz didn't believe in an imminent return of Christ. I was listening to him this morning and at 14:00 minute mark in Part 2 of 2, he states that. But I'd listen to the whole thing, he was younger then too.

Eternal Hell (2 of 2) by Art Katz
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=21804&commentView=itemComments

Here's the first part as well...

Eternal Hell (1 of 2) by Art Katz
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=21803&commentView=itemComments

Thank you for sharing your heart and thoughts on this brother. I really do appreciate your love for the Lord Jesus and your unoffendedness towards His cross!

With His Love,

by deltadom
Concern for Israel when the Jews are going to go through a worse holocaust than the holocaust during the time of tribulation when the church will not be there to help them.

Over the last few years, I've asked my pre-trib friends why the tree that we are grafted into would be left behind and the answers are unanimously that they killed Jesus and rejected Him.This has bothered me so that I've called that belief anti-Semitic... but Christians don't like that word.

I have a question, can one really love the Jewish people and believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church? My personal belief is no but what do you think, Dom?

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." Romans 11:23-27

Lisa said: "Over the last few years, I've asked my pre-trib friends why the tree that we are grafted into would be left behind and the answers are unanimously that they killed Jesus and rejected Him."

I am pre trib and I love the Jewish people. My pastor is pre trib and he loves the Jewish people. He just came back from a conference in Israel, as a matter of fact.

by drifter
I am pre trib and I love the Jewish people. My pastor is pre trib and he loves the Jewish people. He just came back from a conference in Israel, as a matter of fact.

What is your belief about why Israel shall be left behind?

Hi ThyKingdomCome,
I couldnt agree more with everything that you have said as I have debated on numerous of these threads.
1.Mis-characterization of the rapture doctrine
2.I have never seen the rapture as an excuse that we will not suffer persecution
3.We are all brethren and this needs to be kept into account.

I just think its being intellectually dishonest to link the pre trib rapture to believing in no persecution and its being done over and over and over.
We only see in part looking through a dimly lit glass,
yours staff

Hi Lysa,
You can certainly love the Jewish people and believe in the pre trib rapture,no problem non at all,
Yours staff

Hi,
I would say in my opinion that SI members or alot of them have an unhealthy almost morbid obsession with persecution.
Go out to Syria or Eygpt or China,why wait for it to come to the west if its that important,yours staff

Hi
If Paul Washer has the same interest in getting persecuted as some of the SI members then he is being Morbid and obsessive.Paul or any other preacher who are fed up of their cosy western Christian life should relocate and see is persecution all that they expected it to be.Persecution coming to America whether it does or not has become a yawn to be honest.
urs staff

Bearmaster,

In all of the verses you quoted the main motif is the word "will." These persecutions will happen as a natural result of being godly. I think you misinterpreted Staffs objection. It is, from what I see, that many christians seek persecution almost as a rites of passage. I think such Christians still have that "unworthy" mentality and deep down (often unbeknownst to them) seek to find their justification in their suffering for Christ. This we know is contrary to scripture, we are justified by faith regardless of our persecution.

Paul said in 2 Timothy: I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people”” for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior

By longing for persecution or seeking it in this country as a rites of passage or as a necessity (God Forbid!) you are running contrary to the will of God who is a God of PEACE.

God is not disappointed that His people in America aren't beheaded for their belief. This is a blessing and we should serve God in the peace we have with thankful hearts and not seek it's change.

Taking up the cross and being physically persecuted for Christ are not necessarily synonymous, if they were then Paul was indeed wrong to pray for a time when persecutions would cease and was himself running contrary to Gods will.

Hi Blaine,
Repectfully I think we can all say that we are speaking the truth about Jesus Christ .No my issue is not about with any so-called up coming persecution(although ive been listening to this for years and years and it still hasnt come although I wish it would so we wouldnt have to endure these posts)
Like most things their is a balance and some SI members have gone into the unbalanced zone where "persecution" has taken on a life of its own and has cultic undertones about it.
This is unfortunate as the subject of the rapture is clearly not Clear as alot of good preachers differ on the subject.I have a definite view on the rapture and if it doesnt happen I will be surprized(most aspects of it anyway) but I dont go around preaching hells damnation to other Christians if they dont agree with my view.Again for the millionth time there are times where we have Corrie Ten Booms and there are times when we have Billy Graham(which again no one has commented on).Billy Graham wasnt dragged in front of synagogues or beaten or martyred(still time though hes only 97).Hes not overly Morbid either and I'm pretty sure he would say he took up his cross. Billy Graham obviously did not obtain the high mark requested by some SI members.Next they will have to say people like Billy Graham were not Christians at all so that they can continue the persecution narrative
urs staff

To be entirely true to the texts, Jesus was talking to his disciples about coming persecution, to them. Arguably by extension a person who obeys God will face persecution.

However, I see no verse where Jesus says to seek out persecution, in fact he tells his disciples to head for the hills when Jerusalem was surrounded by [Roman] armies.

Peter wrote his epistle to people of the dispersion, i.e. people who have fled persecution. I don't see where he rails at them for dispersing.

I have a question, can one really love the Jewish people and believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church? My personal belief is no but what do you think, Dom?

I have done archaeology in Israel I would love to live there but it would take a miracle, I have recently lost my job and my church has called anyone who does not believe in the pre trib rapture leaven so I do not feel comfortable going back.

I know that there is so much heresy in israel some churches deny doctrines even things such as the trinity.

I know I was sad because when I was working for the Christian bookshop and I was so looking for Good books to share with people and I was using Walter Martins standard for cults and I find that like 99% of books broke his low bar. All I was looking for was good books to hand out.

Why is it that most people who believe in the pretrib view have such a loud voice at the moment I feel like scum because I simply believe in a different opinion and then we are crushed by the world for being a christian

Yes, I can but I think it is absurd.

I want to deal with all the bad arguments for the Pre tribulation Rapture such as the argument that the Church is not between Revelation 6-21, an argument from silence when I hear this argument I go what as the book of Esther does not mention God and I have used the argument from silence used by Atheists.

Should we be concerned with truth not persecution, I know without God I cannot get through one second !

staff wrote:
1.Mis-characterization of the rapture doctrine
2.I have never seen the rapture as an excuse that we will not suffer persecution
3.We are all brethren and this needs to be kept into account.

They believe the rapture will be the reason they won't suffer persecution because they told me, "Stay and suffer if you want, we're leaving! LOLOL"

Not everyone believes like you guys.
God bless,
Lisa

Staff,

So I believe when I speak against the pre-trib movement, it is not against you both but you have seemed to take it that way and defend "your" belief of the pre-trib movement. In this thread, my aim is against those I have had personal experience with in the pre-trib. Just wanted to clear that up.

Deltadom,

I am curious, why is a "love for the jewish people" so important to you? I know Paul expressed that he longed for his brethren to come to Christ but nowhere in all the gospels or epistles are we commanded to have a specific love for the jewish people. Should we? Sure. But if the writers of the new testament didn't make it a specific point or a commandment or even mention such a thing why then are you using that as a spiritual benchmark?

I am not challenging your view of the second coming of Christ, merely this point because you've brought it up several times.

EDIT: Accidentally posted this as a new thread last night and didn't realize it until now

Hi Lysa
Almost every Christian I know are pre trib believers and they are not in any kind of movement number one and number two none think that they are immune to persecution.They do think that they will not suffer the unique and specific time called "The Great Tribulation" though.
On the other hand if people on SI are preaching that Christians will go through the time called the "The Great Tribulation" and are wrong(although unconcievable in the minds of some intransigent Post Trib believers) that is not without series consequences either.
Isnt it possible that you could be wrong?
I do think Post Trib believers use experience alot to back up their beliefs.What I mean is they look at believers in the west for instance that have it relatively cosy and because they have it cosy ,say what they believe must be wrong.Its called throwing the baby out with the bathwater.What could really be happening here that is hard to except is that "The wrong people(cosy Christians) are believing the right things in regards the end",
urs staff

I do not think Paul Washer was speaking on the subject of eschatology , when he gave the warnings of possible coming persecution to America.

Paul Washers warning is simply pointing out a realistic understanding of cycles through out Church history and the realistic direction in which our society is rapidly moving.

Does anyone even know what Paul Washers eschatology beliefs are ?? I know Tim Conway is Amillennialist.

clarity

by staff
On the other hand if people on SI are preaching that Christians will go through the time called the "The Great Tribulation" and are wrong(although unconcievable in the minds of some intransigent Post Trib believers) ....

by staff
Isnt it possible that you could be wrong?

I did have a question for pre-trib believers that believe the Jews will be the ones to suffer through the persecution of the anti-christ and why that’s not anti-Semitic? Will you provide your answer for that? Thank you.

/I did have a question for pre-trib believers that believe the Jews will be the ones to suffer through the persecution of the anti-christ and why that’s not anti-Semitic? Will you provide your answer for that? Thank you./

I acknowledge I may be butting in here. But as a post-trib believer I believe that the final time of tribulation on earth that ends this present age, not "a" tribulation but "the" great tribulation, will be a Judeo-centric event with hostility against the Jews being one of its foremost features. I'm sure millions of post-trib believers everywhere believe the same. It's just that they believe that the church will be present during this time all the way unto the end.

I was speaking recently with a friend of mine who lives in the Cleveland, Ohio area and he said that recently a friend of his who is a Jewish rabbi showed him some 500 year old writings that a former rabbi had written those many years ago. The rabbi from 500 years ago had written of a time of troubloe before the end of the age that will greatly effect the Jewish race. So it's not just modern "left behind" lore that has given rise to this idea of a unprecedented time of trouble before the end of the age and the appearance of the Jewish Deliverer. It's long been a belief in Jewish circles. In the movie "Fiddler on the Roof," a hostile band of people come to the Jewish man's house to inform him that the Jews were being forcibly removed from their homes and belongings. The Jewish man then replies, "Is this the time?" He was referring to the belief that a time of trouble would come before the end. So deep in Jewish tradition and belief, much culled from the Old Testament prophets themselves, is a belief in a time of unprecedented trouble that is to occur as the age ends.

1 At that time Micahel shall stand up, the greast prince who rules over the sons of your people; and there shall be A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION, even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book.

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:1-2)

As seen from Daniel's inspired prophecy, this time of trouble will result in a deliverance for Israel ("your people shall be delivered") and also will result in the resurrection of the dead ("many who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake"). But first a time of trouble.

Thre words of Jesus regarding this are an almost word for quote from Daniel.

21 For then THERE WILL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS HAS NOT BEEN SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD UNTIL THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE" (Matt 24:21).

Jesus had been answering questions about the end of the age.

This time of trouble is set off by the Antichrist as He proclaims Himself to be God and is the final incarnate manifestation of the mystery of iniquity. He will turn his wrath on the Jewish people first and foremost.

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who had given birth to the male Child. (Rev 12:13)

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Rev 13:17)

30 ...thereforte he shalll be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage. (Daniel 11:30b)

So if the final tribulation is anything it will be a Judeo-centric tribulation. It will be the time when God is pouring out His final judgments on the earth but also it is entirely obvious that the nations will be engaged in a final assault against Jerusalem and the land during this time. The prophets spoke profusely of this and this is the time of the final trouble. See Jeremiah 30:7 - there will be no day like the day of this trouble. Satan still thinks if he can exterminate this particular group of people known as the Jews that he will be able to forestall his doom and coming banishment. But yet Israel will be delivered and the resurection of the righteous dead will occur. Jesus was of course not anti-semitic and he spoke of a time of trouble and tribulation at the end of the age that would involve the Jewish nation. The debate is why will the final controversy once again involve this one particular people and what will be a forewarned church's role during this time. Is Christ going to return to the nation He came to and left and promised to return to? It makes sense that in one final futile effort that the powers of darkness will once again turn their sights on this particular people. There's no anti-semitism involved in this in my opinion. It's rather a matter of gleaming foresight from the scriptures as to what and WHO will be at the center of the final time of trouble.

by Docs
I acknowledge I may be butting in here. But as a post-trib believer I believe that the final time of tribulation on earth that ends this present age, not "a" tribulation but "the" great tribulation, will be a Judeo-centric event with hostility against the Jews being one of its foremost features. I'm sure millions of post-trib believers everywhere believe the same. It's just that they believe that the church will be present during this time all the way unto the end.

Daniel chapter 11 and 12 describes many of the personages and events that will be present during a final time of trouble. It is definitely a set of passages and chapters dealing with the time of the end. The AC and his brief but fierce career is specifically metnioned in these chapters. After gaining his position through guile and deceit his rage is eventually directed against the holy people and the holy covenant - Daniel 11:30-32. He will above all be a willful king who does according to his will and will multiply and exalt himself above every god - Daniel 11:36 and II Thess 2:4 speak of the same person in almost identical language. While speaking of the coming man of sin Paul drew his reference from Daniel 11:36. See also Rev 13:6. Yet curiously and very intriguing (thank the Lord for providing us insight) there is a certain group of people spoken of during this time who are set apart and distinct from the others caught up in this malestorm.

30 So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant.

31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; BUT THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW THEIR GOD WILL SHALL BE STRONG AND CARRY OUT GREAT EXPLOITS.

33 AND THOSE OF THE PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND SHALL INSTRUCT MANY; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. (Daniel 11:30-33)

It's my opinion that the church's role during the final time of trouble signalling the end of the age is prophetically forecast here by a gracious God who has cared enough to lay things out for us beforehand. The abomination of desolation spoken of here is the same Paul spoke of in II Thess 2:4. Yet the church of the end is never portrayed in scripture as blindly stumbling along in a state of bewilderment and lack of understanding - II Thess 5:1-11. "But you, brethren, are not in darkness. so that this Day should overtake you like a thief" (verse 5:4) The church of the end shall understand the times they are living in - "And those of the people who understand shall instruct many." A prophetically literate church, filled with prophetic understanding and preparation beforehand, will be prepared and willing to instruct many as to what is happening and why it is happening. Then they will be able to point those without understanding to the only safe place which is found in Christ. They will be stong in the Spirit because they know thier God and they will do great exploits right in the face of the AC and his persecution. Great numbers of souls,Jews and Gentiles, will be harvested. The AC will single out the Jewish people and the church during this time as special objects of persecution. If a church willing to love not its own life to death stands with and identifies with Jewish people during this time it may go a long way in softening Jewish hearts that have long been hardened toward the church and its presentation of Christ. Many times the church has stood the hardest on Jewish necks! When many or all forsake the Jews the church will be called to extend its hand of friendship and even its own life in behalf of the Jewish people.

11 And they overcame him (the willlful king, the man of sin) by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of thier testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

If a Christian alive and well on the earth perishes during the tribulation how and in what way will they lose an iota of their heavenly reward? What does it matter if you are supposedly raptured out before this time of trouble or you remain and end up being a martyr? If you remain (God's plan all along?) how will you lose even a scintilla of your heavenly reward in Christ? The stakes are profoundly high if this issue is examined at its very heart. No one would want to go through this time - "the" great tribulation and not just "a" tribulation. But if it is God's will then the church needs to prepare and accept its rolpe and the divine enablement that will come from the Lord to perform its role. The pre-trib view looks forward to escaping all this under a pretense of we are not appointed for wrath when Revelation makes it abundantly clear that the wrath of God is not being poured out on believers. It emphatically states just the opposite. The pre-trib view looks forward to preserving its life by escaping just in the nick of time. Accompanied by the many changes and scriptural manipulations that the pre-trib view has had to engage in to keep its view credible (like changing the Day of the Lord and making it seven years long and tribulation believers will not be part of the church), perhaps a bigger ruse than a pre-trib rapture has never before appeared in he church during its entire history. It's time to get this issue straight in the heart and life of the church. Too much is at stake at this point.

Blessings.

I am not sure what Paul Washers eschatological views are but Tim Conway is part of the same circle as Washer and
he has done a series defending the Amillennialist perspective :

Eschatology: A Study of the End Times

http://illbehonest.com/series/eschatology-a-study-of-the-end-times

Docs wrote:

"If a church willing to love not its own life to death ***stands with and identifies with Jewish people*** during this time it may go a long way in softening Jewish hearts..."

David I was hoping you might elucidate a tad on the above statement, particularly the phrase I highlighted.

Thanks!

Bro Blaine , thank you for that link

He gave indications in that link that cause me to believe that he might lean Amillennialist

By him defending the imminent return of Christ and
By him saying that we are currently living in the last days of what he specifically called the messianic age,
would to me be an indication that he is amillennialist as is Tim Conway

edit : clarity

Great video

Brother Washer defended the imminent return of Christ by stating a trumpet can blow at any moment etc. First and foremost, this is a doctrine of pre-tribulational dispensationalism even thought it may be associated with some streams of amillennialism. The doctrine of imminence is built around the belief that nothing in the way of prophetic fulfillment stands in the way of Christ's return. All has been fulfilled and Christ can return at any moment. Actually, it is constructed around the belief that nothing in the way of prophetic fulfillment stands in the way of Christ coming to rapture His church which is supposedly altogether different than Christ making His second coming to earth. So the doctrine of imminence has historically been taught by dispensationalism to mean thatg the catching awy or rapture of the church can occur at any moment and will be signalled by the blowing of a trumpet.

Later Brother Washer stated he believes believers will be present during the triublation so I came away a bit unclear as to what he actually believes. If a trumptet can blow at any moment and catch away the church then what are tribulation believers who come to faith and are washed in the blood during this time? Are they part of the church also? If believers are going to go through the tribulation then aren't believers supposed to be caught away before the tribulation begins so how would they find themselves in the tribulation. I came away a bit unclear as to where he actually stands.

I've listened to Brother Washer on other things recently and he has sure ministered to me. I can say that for sure.

The Glorious Return

29 "But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

31 And He will send forth His angels WITH A GREAT TRUMPET and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

There are no other trumpets mentioned anywhere after the trumpet Jesus spoke of here in Matthew 24:31. One will search in vain to find any other mention of another trumpet after this. It is the very last one and it signals the coming of Christ and our gathering together unto Him. The last trumpet has always been associated with the resurrection and translation of all saints living and dead.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a monent, in the twinkling of any eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET.

52 FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND, and the dead will be raised incorruptible and we all (living and dead) shall be changed(I Cor 15:51-52).

How can a trumpet sound at any moment signalling the resurection of the dead and the translation of all saints living and dead if the last trumpet Jesus (Matt 24:31) and Paul spoke of in Corinthians occurs AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days? It seems logical this specific tribulation that occurs at the end of the age would have to occur first before the last trumpet sounds? How can a trumpet sounding seven years before at a rapture of the church be legitimately called the last trumpet if there is still another trumpet to follow seven years later AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days? How many last trumpets are there?

In Jewish thinking the end of the age occured at the Day of the Lord. Paul wrote that this day would not occur until the man of sin was FIRST revealed (II Thess 2:1-10).

So how can a trumpet sound at any moment without the man of sin first appearing? This man of sin meets His demise at the Day of the Lord which day the church has always associated with the secoind coming of Christ at which the resurrection of the deasd will take place at the last trumpet. AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days according to Jesus.

Its my thinking that the doctrine of imminence - a trumpet can blow at any monent - is not in line with the true chronology that scripture clearly gives. We need not fear that the last trumpet can blow at any moment. The man of sin and the final tribulation must occur first if scripture be true. As historically taught, the doctrine of imminence means that Christ can come and pre-trib rapture His church away from the earth at any moment signalled by a trumpet. But what manipulation of scripture must occur for this to be true! If the dead are raised at the last trumpet, then how can a trumpet sounding seven years before the end of the age in reality be legitimately called the last trumpet if there is yet another trumpet to sound seven years later after the tribulation of those days.

The doctrine of imminence can produce unjustified fear and apprehension. We are to live in a state of holiness and consecration but in fact many great and momentous things must happend first before the last trumpet sounds. We need a greater understanding of this issue which can lead to a greater rest for us. Many things must occur first before the last trumpet blows. Don't fear that a trumpet can blow at any moment. The last trumpet will blow only after the tribulation of those final days. God has called us to understanding and peace on this issue.

Having done more research I am fairly certain that Washer leans Amillennialist though he does not seem as upfront with it as is Tim Conway.

RE : /// First and foremost, this is a doctrine of pre-tribulational dispensationalism even thought it may be associated with some streams of amillennialism.///

Tim conway teaches on imminence in his defence of Amillinalism as a majior reason against premillinalism in his :
5 Reasons an Amillennialist Should Preach on Eschatology (check the link that I have already provided in a previous post for that message)

Conway has a direct link to Washers 'heartcry' ministry at the bottom of his pages under resources.

RE : /// Later Brother Washer stated he believes believers will be present during the triublation so I came away a bit unclear as to what he actually believes.///

Listen to it again he was not unclear but rather uncertain about how somethings might play out.
and stressed that at any moment Christ can return,
and than it is all over.
Wisely on his part, He is not dogmatic about possible future details.

Paul Washer believes as I do that on the Day that the Lord returns the earth will be destroyed. ( no 1,000 years to go )
It is clearly what the Bible teaches but it does not fit in with premillinalism of any form
and its idea of another 1,000 years of a Messianic age with What Washer says we are living in right now.

RE : /// Let us not forget that Jesus taught in the gospel accounts of His return to always be on the alert. That certainly implied an imminent or soon return of the Master.///

I agree with that, But that is not what these so called 'historic premillinialist' teach nor do they teache as the Bible teaches and as Washer believes that the earth will be destroyed on that same day

add : I say "so called" because there is a large difference in what premillinalist taught historically and what modern 'historic premillinialist' teach today

/Tim conway teaches on imminence in his defence of Amillinalism as a majior reason against premillinalism in his :
5 Reasons an Amillennialist Should Preach on Eschatology (check the link that I have already provided in a previous post for that message)/

In its purest form, the doctrine of imminecne means that nothing in the way of prophetic fulfillment stands in the way of Christ coming again. All has been fulfilled and nothing else needs to occur so a trumpet can sound at any moment or second signalling Christ's return.

Yet Jesus said the last trumpet signalling our gathering to Him will occur AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days (Matt 24:29-31). Paul said that the Day of the Lord (the day of Christ's return) would not happen until the man of sin is revealed. So if these things must happen before the last trumpet how can it be said that a trumpet can occur at any moment or second without these things happening first?

/RE : /// Later Brother Washer stated he believes believers will be present during the triublation so I came away a bit unclear as to what he actually believes.///

Listen to it again he was not unclear but rather uncertain about how somethings might play out.
and stressed that at any moment Christ can return,
and than it is all over.
Wisely on his part, He is not dogmatic about possible future details./

Again, my question is how can Christ return at any moment if the man of sin must first be revealed and a final tribulation also occur?

The doctrine of imminence is first and foremost a teaching of pre-trib dispensationalism advocating essentially that Christ can return at any moment to rapture His church away from the earth before final events and tribulation occur. They have a trumpet blowing to signal this rapture and the resurrection and translation of saints living and dead but it can't be the last trumpet Paul spoke of in I Cor 15:51-52 or that Jesus spoke of in Matt 24:31 because that trumpet occurs after the revealing of the man of sin and AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days (Matt 24:29). So if Brother Conway and Brother Washer maintain that a trumpet can sound at any moment signalling Christ's return which trumpet are they referring to? If it is the last trumpet they speak of then it can't sound at any moment because certain fulfillments of prophecy very obviously stand to be fulfilled before it can sound. If they maintain a trumpet can sound at any moment they are in line with what pre-tribulation dispensationalism teaches regarding the rapture of the church which supposedly can occur at any moment or second signalled by the sound of a trumpet.

My thought is if certain things must happen before Christ's return then a trumpet signalling His return can't happen at any moment before these things are fulfilled. The doctrine of imminence is caught in a quandry if certain things must be fulfilled before the last trumpet can sound. How many last trumpets are there and WHEN does the last trumpet occur?

RE : /// Again, my question is how can Christ return at any moment if the man of sin must first be revealed and a final tribulation also occur?///

As Washer pointed out the emperor of Rome fit the description but that there is some verses that cause us to wounder if there maybe still more of a future fullfilment.

So we are open to both the reality of an imminence event as well as the possibility that somethings might still playout with further fullfillment.

RE : /// My thought is if certain things must happen before Christ's return then a trumpet signalling His return can't happen at any moment before these things are fulfilled.///

As I said the 'so called' historic premillinalist do not believe as the Scriptures teach that His return can happen at any moment nor do they teach that the earth is burned up on the Day of the Lord as what the Scriptures clearly teach

Raptured out, post trib...pre trib, as long as i'm headed to Heaven and will have a new body, none of this really matters to me. What matters to me is, helping others get there, by letting them know Jesus Christ is the only way. Ok, sorry for the interruption, carry on soldiers......

The emperor of Rome or any emperor of Rome did not meet their demise at Christ's return as the man of sin will (Daniel 7:11;II Thess 2:8;Rev 19:19-20).

29 Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give itis light; the stars will fall fromheaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appeqar in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, andthey will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send forth His angels WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they will GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds; from one end of heaven to the other.

- A tribulation unlike any other before
- A stellar darkness IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS
- A great sound of a trumpet signalling our gathering together unto Him, assumably including the resurection of the dead and the translation of all saints living and dead.

The good Lord has made it very clear and easy to understand the porder of events. There's no use being open to a imminent return of Christ at which a trumpet can blow at any moment or second. The reason is that it interrupts the basic order God has so lovingly given to us. We are not called to be open to this or open to that but just to embrace the order of the last trumpet. Surely this stellar darkness immediately after the tribulation of these days hasn't occurred yet. Followed by the SOUND OF A GREAT TRUMPET which indeed is the last trumpet.

Blessings.

"If a church willing to love not its own life to death ***stands with and identifies with Jewish people*** during this time it may go a long way in softening Jewish hearts..."

David I was hoping you might elucidate a tad on the above statement, particularly the phrase I highlighted./

I simply believe there is a day coming in the not so distant future when anti-semitism is going to be in vogue again on the earth. Not in all places but in many. I think it will actually run rampant again in many places. Maybe not necessarily backed by the view that Jews are genetically a lower class of humans (except in Islam) but because of the controversies surrounding the Jewish state many Jews and their nation are going to be ostracized again. I believe the fianl time of trouble on the earth (Jer 30:7; Daniel 12:1; Matt 24:21; Rev 7:14) will be a Judeo-centric time of trouble and great tribulation for the nation of Israel and Jewish people. They will increasingly be ostracized and shunned and they will be a specific target for the hate of the principalities and powers. I believe that during this time if the church will continue to stand with and befriend Jewish people because of the love of Christ in them then maybe it will help soften Jewish hearts long dwelling in coldness toward the gospel. The Jewish people have not forgotten that saints like Thomas Aquinas agreed to Jews being required to wearing yellow stars in public and being banned from seeking public office. John Calvin was content with Jews being banned from Geneva. Jews have not forgotten the forced removal and massacres perpetuted on them by Orthodox believers in Russia at the turn of the century before this one. Much less the atrocities the Crusaders performed in the land Jerusalem itself. They haven't forgotten the cold reception many received in obstensibly Christian Europe after they returned from the holocaust. God opens hearts ultimately but He can use people as His witness to help this along. At some point it's not going to be popular to stand with Israel even in their present unbelief but choices need to be made now in my opinion. No matter how this nation and people are treated in the future a church willing to lay down its life for them and to identify with their suffering will go a long way in fulfilling a major part of God's eschatological role for the church in my opinionis The modern day controversy of Zion and its corollary "Jewish problem" is not going away nor should our love for the Jewish people to who we owe our salvation go away. I'm not saying Gentiles are inferior or second class but God's pattern has always been to the Jew first. The Jewish nation and people are going to suffer a unprecedented type of trouble again in the future but yet when they are dwelling in peace and safety never to be persecuted or bothered again so will the world be at peace.

Thanks David-

In what manner should the church "identify" with the jewish people? Having empathy and caring for physical needs is one thing but that will not save anybody. I guess what I am saying is the gospel will still need to be preached unashamedly; having sympathy and standing along side will not cut the mustard.

The gospel still needing to be preached goes without saying doesn't it? I mentioned before,

/If a church willing to love not its own life to death stands with and identifies with Jewish people during this time it may go a long way in softening Jewish hearts that have long been hardened toward the church and its presentation of Christ./

Standing with people in their physical and emotional needs and trying to identify with them can go a long way also. It always has.