Are the scriptures alone sufficient to teach us doctrine?

That's a silly question, of course its the bible alone! It says that on almost every page of the New testament!!! Remember what Jesus said, "if I go to the father I will send you the rest of the book and it will guide you into all truth?" Or, "he who reads my book from him will flow rivers of living water?"

I would say we cant understand the Bible unless the Lord shows us things.

2Corinthians 3V14
But their minds were closed; indeed, until this very day, the same veil remains over the reading of the Old Testament: it is not lifted, for only in Christ is it done away with.
3:15 As it is, to this day, whenever Moses is read, their hearts are covered with a veil,
3:16 and this veil will not be taken away till they turn to the Lord.

Thats just an example.

We have many believers blinded by the grace message when it is taken to extreme limits and they cannot understand the doctrines of repentance and of leaving our past behind as being important.

I think David Keel has put it absolutely right.
It is the scriptures, with the help of the Holy Spirit.

It is not the Holy Spirit alone (that would give rise to a multitude of strange doctrines being un challangeable), nor is it the bible alone without the Spirit ( as this will result in man's interpretation and doctrine).
I guess what Bear is alluding to in systematic theology is the later option?

"All scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof and training in righteousness".

Hi Brother Blaine,

I see what you are saying. Its by the Lords grace isnt it that He corrects us in the error of our ways.?
To those whose hearts are fathful in wanting to follow and be corrected in our error he will put a warning in our spirits. I think its when personal ambition gets in the way our conscience cannot hear the Lord instructing us to return back to point A.

Quote from bear master: When I was in the Calvinistic movement I was told that one cannot really understand the scriptures apart from consulting systematic theologies and commentaries. These Calvinistic brethren who would cry out Sola Scriptura.

This kind of hypocrisy is very unfortunate. I see this a lot. Particularly in the way that Protestants say they must admit to the authority of the scriptures but their very root is founded in a german monk who 1. shunned the authority of the apostolic church and decided HE would form his own church with his own beliefs and 2. picked and chose what he wanted in the bible, including what books he considered canonical.

I wonder why a man who wanted to do his own thing and needed an authority to back it up would come up with and push the doctrine of sola scriptura...

Christ is Truth, lets see things as they really are (no matter how uncomfortable). It is the Truth that sets us free.

The sad thing is we think we accept sola scriptura because its what we believe when in fact we were taught and it is in its root still the teaching of Martin Luther. I would like to ask the board at what point when studying the teachings of Martin Luther did they choose to accept his doctrine and understanding concerning the bible? Or did they just open their mouth and eat the food that has been being passed down from 500 years ago?

If I show you a glass of water you will think "Oh, there's a glass of water." If I tell you there's poison in it then how you view and think about that glass will not be the same. Because you have had something put into you (in this case the knowledge that it is poison) your entire viewpoint and way of thinking about that water has been changed to its very core.

This is what the truth does. When one is filled with Spirit of God and given Wisdom and Knowledge and Understanding our viewpoint is completely changed. You see it's not a thought. I can tell you my thoughts about the water now knowing what I know but I cannot impart to you the radical change of heart towards it because that change has taken place not in the mind but in the heart.

How we view the scriptures can only be properly conveyed by the Spirit who operates on that level I was talking about. It's entirety can NEVER be contained within a doctrine. This world lacks the means of conveying that. Our religion is one of spirit not of words. Words are a means of communicating for the flesh and we are to be no longer of the flesh but of the spirit.

So my advice would be to throw out your latin phrases and your books and seek the Living God who is Spirit and let him lead you and guide you in the word and out of it and do not fear the Truth.

The thing is with doctrine is we either have good doctrine or bad doctrine

Latin Phrases such as
Sola scriptura
Sola fide
Sola gratia
Soli Deo gloria
Soli Deo gloria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solae

So my advice would be to throw out your latin phrases and your books and seek the Living God

The problem with this is what type of God as we define what God is like by theology? Are God is different that say say the Hindus or say the Jehovah s witnesses or the Cults.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Titus 1:9
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Do we want to be flung to and fro with every weird doctrine that comes into this world

Idolatry is something forbidden in the new testament and old. When we worship God, doctrine defines the God that we worship as he is different.

Who jesus is and who God is, is defined in the scriptures and it is idolatry to serve a god other than one in scripture.

if we seek the living God we seek the living god of scripture not of say pantheism or say hinduism

The Deity of Christ
Jesus is God in flesh (John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14). See also John 1:1, 14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8
1 John 4:2-3: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."
The above verse needs to be cross-referenced with John 1:1, 14 (also written by John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh.
1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh, then you are of the spirit of Antichrist.
John 8:24, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
Jesus said that if you do not believe "that I am," you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58, where Jesus says " . . . before Abraham was, I am." He was claiming the divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14.
The Greek Septuagint is the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek and done by Jews around 250 B.C. They translated Exodus 3:14 as 'ego eimi' "I AM").
Jesus is the proper object of faith
It is not simply enough to have faith. Faith is only as valid as the person in whom you put it. You must put your faith in the proper person. Cults have false objects of faith (false gods); therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are.
If you put your faith in a guru, a philosopher, or a past teacher (and not Jesus) to save you from your sins on Judgment Day, then you will be in a lot of trouble no matter how sincere or strong your faith is. You might have great faith but so what? Faith in something false has the same effect as no faith at all.
The Doctrine of the deity of Christ includes:
The Trinity--There is one God who exists in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are all coeternal and of the same nature.
Monotheism--There is only one God in all existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; 45:5, 14, 18, 21, 22; 46:9; 47:8). Mormons believe that many gods exist though they serve and worship only one. Therefore, they are polytheists which excludes them from the camp of Christianity.
The Hypostatic Union--That Jesus is both God and man.
The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ--The sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay for the sins of the world, and it is only through Jesus' sacrifice that anyone can be saved.
As God--Only a perfect sacrifice to God is able to cleanse us from our sins. This is why Jesus, who is God in flesh, died for us.
He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that.
As man--Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man.
As a man, He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).
This means that the Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, Islam, etc., are outside of Christianity.
Salvation by Grace
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." (Eph. 2:8-9, NIV).
"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." (Gal. 5:4).
This verse and its context plainly teach that if you believe that you are saved by faith and works, then you are not saved at all. This is a common error in the cults. Because they have a false Jesus, they have a false doctrine of salvation. (Read Rom. 3-5 and Gal. 3-5).
You cannot add to the work of God. Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (NIV)
"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." (Rom. 3:20).
"However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).
"Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law." (Gal. 3:21).
Salvation is not universal resurrection as Mormonism would declare. Rather, it is the saving from God's righteous judgment. Furthermore, salvation, which is the forgiveness of sins, is accomplished by faith alone (Rom. 4:1-11).
Roman Catholicism denies salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. Therefore, Roman Catholicism is outside of Christianity.
The Resurrection of Christ
"And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." (1 Cor. 15:14). "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins." (1 Cor. 15:17).
To deny the physical resurrection is to deny that Jesus' work was a satisfactory offering to God the Father. It would mean that Jesus was corrupt and needed to stay in the grave. But, he did not stay because his sacrifice was perfect.
These verses clearly state that if you say that Jesus did not rise from the dead (in the same body He died in--John 2:19-21), then your faith is useless.
The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Muslims deny Jesus' physical resurrection. Therefore, they are outside of Christianity.
The Gospel
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:8-9, NIV).
Verses 8 and 9 here in Galatians are a self-declarative statement that you must believe the gospel. The gospel message which in its entirety is that Jesus is God in flesh, who died for sins, rose from the dead, and freely gives the gift of eternal life to those who believe.
Furthermore, it would not be possible to present the gospel properly without declaring that Jesus is God in flesh per John 1:1, 14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8.
1 Cor. 15:1-4 defines what the gospel is: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," (NIV).
Within these verses are the essentials: Christ is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9); Salvation is received by faith (John 1:12; Rom. 10:9-10); therefore it is by grace; and the resurrection is mentioned in verse 4. Therefore, this gospel message automatically includes the essentials.
Monotheism
There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8)
"You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments." (Exodus 20:3-6).
We can see that God will visit iniquity on the descendants of those who do not follow the true and living God.
Mormonism, for example, is not monotheistic. Mormonism teaches that there are many gods but only one is worshiped. Therefore, Mormonism is outside of Christianity.

Secondary Essentials

Secondary essentials are necessary truths, but there is no self-declared penalty for their denial--yet they are still essential to the Christian faith. Again, by way of example, Jesus says that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by him. (John 14:6). I call this a secondary essential because there's no penalty associated with its denial. Nevertheless, it is a statement of absolute truth and is an essential Christian teaching that cannot be denied.

Jesus is the only way to salvation
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.'" (John 14:6)
Jesus declared that he was the only access to God the Father. To deny this is to deny what Jesus said.
Jesus' Virgin Birth
"'Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,' which translated means, 'God with us.'” (Matt. 1:23).
Without the virgin birth, we cannot substantiate the doctrine of the incarnation of Jesus being God in flesh. This would put at risk what Jesus said above in John 8:24 where he said, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
Doctrine of the Trinity
Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," (see also, Matt. 3:16-17; 1 Cor. 12:4-6; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6).
This doctrine is not represented by a single verse per se though it is hinted at. The doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at systematically by looking at the totality of Scripture. It is, nevertheless, the proper representation of scriptural revelation concerning the nature of God.
The Trinity is denied by Mormonism, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam, The Way International, etc.

https://carm.org/essential-doctrines-of-christianity

The scriptures should define Systematic Theology not the other way round

Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

One of the fundementals of a pastor is sound doctrine

Titus 1
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

The thing is we have so much heresy in the church at the moment ! it saddens me !

Many Christians have not read the Bible to use it as a sword!

it saddens me you talk to christians and they have not even read there bible once ?

Are we ready to contend earnestly for the faith!

May I ask the one who began this thread to answer his own question,

"Do we truly believe that the Bible alone is the only infallible rule of faith and practice. And do we appeal to the Bible alone to establish our doctrine?"

Thank you

I think first of apostle Paul himself, who by the grace of God and led by the Holy Spirit has written a great part of the New Testament scriptures. The careful reader of the Bible will note that in his epistles doctrines are explained (justification by faith, holiness, church, gifts of the Spirit etc.) These were things that you do not see fully expounded in the gospels (although of course there is also much doctrinal truth).

Jesus said:
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." (John 16:12,13)

So that is what we see happen in the New Testament - "holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." Now the above saying of Jesus refers also to the following - that the Holy Spirit will lead us to greater and greater knowledge of Christ. "He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you." (John 16:14)

So my first point is that apostle Paul actually depended on the Holy Spirit for the explanation of the gospel, and it was the Holy Spirit who reveales to him certain mysteries (Ephesians 3:1-7)

The second example is the eunuch of Ethiopia. Ever wondered why the Holy Spirit took Phillip right after the conversion and baptism of this eunuch? "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing." (Acts 8:39) I mean Phillip probably did not have time to explain to him all other doctrines. He "preached unto him Jesus." (v.35) That's all! This eunuch then had Scriptures and the Spirit with him when Phillip left. So tell me who could teach him further the way of the Lord if not the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures?

So, I believe that should be our first ressort too! About systematic theology:
First of all, not all nations have works of great Christians translated in their language.
Second, such materials can be really helpful, if you know how to use them and nonetheless above all, keep in mind that we are not called to defend the doctrinal statement of a denomination or a local church, but to be true to God! So first seek to know Him!
These materials were never meant to be a substitute for personal seeking of God in prayer and Scripture!

One last note to deltadom,
I do not agree that denying that Jesus is the only way has no penalty - just because that would mean that you call Jesus a liar... And the doctrine of Trinity - I know the word trinity is not found in Scripture but as you said, the whole Scripture speaks of it. So people may abbreviate it as they want but it is very essential truth and if somebody denies that, He is surely denying the God of the Bible, who has revealed Himself like that.

Deltadom read your post and ask yourself: in a conversation between Jesus and the Pharisees who would be most likely to mimic your response?

Nothing in your post even closely resembles anything written by the apostles, not in message or point or even the Spirit of it.

There is truth in your post but it's all devoid of life. It all sounds like a bunch of regurgitated garbage, a selfish attempt to preserve the life of the past now gone, the same life we should be walking in now.

I think I will be pretty strong on this one.

Absolutely NOT!

When we only have scripture, we attempt to understand it intellectually, with our own mind. We ALWAYS get it catastrophically wrong when we try to understand it with our own intellect.

But, when we allow the Holy Spirit to come on the scene and teach us how to interpret and understand the written word, then we get our teaching straight. We must have the author, the writer, helping us to interpret His writing.

Deltadom read your post and ask yourself: in a conversation between Jesus and the Pharisees who would be most likely to mimic your response?

Nothing in your post even closely resembles anything written by the apostles, not in message or point or even the Spirit of it.

There is truth in your post but it's all devoid of life. It all sounds like a bunch of regurgitated garbage, a selfish attempt to preserve the life of the past now gone, the same life we should be walking in now.

How do you know?

We need the Bible to differentiate what is the holy spirit and what is not ?

Revelation 13:12-14King James Version (KJV)

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

The bible talks about the Antichrist even doing miracles and sending fire down from heaven!

How do we know things are the holy spirit ?
How do we know things are jesus ?

Matt 24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The revivals that happened previously were not anti intellectual during the Scottish Revival bibles were sold.

1 John 4English Standard Version (ESV)
Test the Spirits

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

The Bible commands us to test the spirits

There is no where in scripture where it says turn of are minds as we are given the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:16
"For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

In Galations it says if any man preach any person even an Angel preach any other Gospel let him be accursed!

Galatians 1English Standard Version (ESV)
Greeting

1 Paul, an apostle””not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead”” 2 and all the brothers[a] who are with me,

To the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
No Other Gospel

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel”” 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant[b] of Christ.
Paul Called by God

11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel.[c] 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14 And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born,[d] and who called me by his grace, 16 was pleased to reveal his Son to[e] me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;[f] 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother. 20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!) 21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only were hearing it said, "He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they glorified God because of me.

Can I ask you if we are saying it is the holy spirit ? Can you prove to me that it is from the scriptures as if someone was preaching a different gospel and they were saying that it is the holy spirit I would disagree because it goes against scripture?

If someone said to me go into to the Morman church because of the burning in the bosom I would disagree because the bible tells me differently.

There are many Jesus of today and we can make God in our own image we need the Bible and doctrine to clarify what we mean.

All of us have our doctrines whether it lines up with scriptures or not!

I used to think I do need doctrine until I understood I already believed in doctrine but my doctrine was off the wall. If you speak to cults you find doctrine to be vital or Muslims.

I find it offensive when people say that you are a Pharisee because you simply understand the scriptures to some depth.

The Pharisee card is quite a simply foolish statement to make not unless you understand the first century context of the Pharisees and that the current Judaism is more close to the Phrasical movement.

This is a whole subject !

If you do not believe in doctrine if I said Jesus was a black man from Ghana who lived in the 21st century who practised buddism why would that be wrong

or the holy spirit is simply a force such as electricty why would that be wrong.

We have to define things biblically else we may fall into deception

I do not agree that denying that Jesus is the only way has no penalty - just because that would mean that you call Jesus a liar... And the doctrine of Trinity - I know the word trinity is not found in Scripture but as you said, the whole Scripture speaks of it. So people may abbreviate it as they want but it is very essential truth and if somebody denies that, He is surely denying the God of the Bible, who has revealed Himself like that.

I think the Trinity is essential doctrine as I am against the oneness pentecostal groups and people like TD Jakes I just copied the stuff from Carm that deals with Cults !

"Straw man is a rhetorical technique (also classified as a logical fallacy) based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."

You say over and over: "But there are those who would say that we must resort to systematic theology or commentaries to shape our doctrine..."

Which may be a true statement??

And then you say, "...Rather than trusting the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit to give us revelation insight out of the scriptures."

Which is a mighty BIG accusation against a large body of believers.

A quote from a few of these "there are those who would say" OR a reference from one of their books with this teaching (especially the teaching of "rather than trusting the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit...") will avoid appearing like our present day politicians who have a tendency to use the "straw man method" to promote their opinion as fact and twist the truth.

Just a suggestion... Thanks!

Who taught you these things? Did the Spirit of God through His wisdom and grace lead you to this conclusion? Because the idea that everything needs to be tested against Scripture IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. Therefore your foundation of this must rest on something other than scripture, perhaps the teaching of man?

You think I call you a Pharisee because you know scripture? No sir, I reference the pharisees because they too had the scriptures "doctrinized" and because everything had to match the scripture they didn't see Christ who EXCEEDS the scriptures.

You say: How do we know things are the holy spirit ?
How do we know things are jesus ?

Then you quote 1st Corinthians 2:16 which is the very answer, because we have the mind of Christ!

In your quote from 1 John 4 John does not mention the scriptures as the test, not once!! It does not prove your point but it does show that the key to discernment lies within the Christians whom he is addressing and that they themselves are capable of it because they have the Spirit of God. If the bible was involved in that wouldn't he have said it??

You quote from Galatians. Thank you! Paul learned the gospel through a revelation of Christ. Again, no scriptures and not proving your point.

You say: Can I ask you if we are saying it is the holy spirit ? Can you prove to me that it is from the scriptures as if someone was preaching a different gospel and they were saying that it is the holy spirit I would disagree because it goes against scripture?

Yes I can prove it according to the truth that is in Christ that now dwells within me. How did the prophets do it? They spoke as moved by the Holy Spirit. They did not make sure everything aligned with the bible (at that point the books of Moses) in fact the word they were given superseded it and pointed towards its elimination.

You say: We have to define things biblically else we may fall into deception

Okay, let's do that. Have you studied what the word "doctrine" means in the bible? Have you looked at that other word in other writings of the time to maybe get a fuller sense of what it meant 2000 years ago? 2000 years is a long time, especially for language (considering Koine Greek is a dead language). Reading an ancient manuscript with a modern brain is a very easy way to get something wrong.

What then serves the purpose of the bible? Paul mentioned to Timothy: "All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice that the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work."

I am not against studying the bible. It is good but it is only good to those who are in Christ and walking in His Wisdom and have been made complete in Him. By those who are not dictated in thought by a denomination or church but are open to Him and His truth. Indeed the scriptures are profitable, they are very profitable, not because they DEFINE God (As you are claiming they do) but because they point to Him and through His Spirit the scriptures - which cannot be broken-guide us towards a greater understanding of Him.

I am all for the scriptures being used as a "standard" (so to speak.) For example, those preachers that hit people to heal them. The scriptures say the fruit of the Spirit is gentleness. Ergo they are not acting in the Holy Spirit. But to understand the truth of Christ, that's a work that is done in a mans heart, not in the head.

One more point, the Galatians verse. I saw your (Matt Slicks) explanation of the gospel using all kinds of different verses to tie it together. Very nice, it does nothing. Experience the gospel and you'll see not that its written in the scriptures but that the writers of it had themselves undergone it and are speaking FROM it, not OF it and then you will see it and not have to cross reference and tie things together to paint a nice pretty picture. The apostles did not write their letters for that purpose.

So sir, we are in agreement about things. It's the underlying thought and heart behind the arguments where I see a foundation built not totally on Christ but on things you have learned from other men. Throw it out. Forget Matt Slick and Luther and Spurgeon and see the scriptures with an open mind apart from the influence they have on your viewpoint.

dspks if that is a reference to me deltadom quoted a large section of teaching from Matt Slick. This I think will suffice as the reference which you feel I need to address specifically. (If this is directed towards me.)

There is a misconception about a verse that I often hear people use that is not in accordance with the over all teaching of Scripture nor with the context of which it is found.

It is John Chapter 5 v 39 : "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Often times I hear/read men misuse the above verse to make an argument against the Verbal plenary inspiration of the Scriptures.

They often times will try to give a misconception that the Scripture only purpose is to point us to Christ.
And that somehow Jesus was undermining the power of the Scriptures and its authority by making the above statement.

But if they would read a little deeper they would find that Jesus was not undermining the Scriptures at all nor criticizing men for believing them.

He points out that they did not believe the Scriptures ch 5 v 46 and that because they did not believe the Scriptures they could not believe his Words.

to be continued 'if not led otherwise'

The Scriptures are more trust worthy than anything that we have experienced :

In 2nd Peter 1 :
Peter confirms that what he is speaking of is True and can be validated because of what he has seen,heard and experienced v 16-18
and than in verse 19 he points out that there is a more sure word than even his experience and that is of the word of prophecy (Scriptures)

When Jesus was tempted , What did he rely on to secure him through the temptation ?

"It is written,"
"It is written again"
"for it is written,"

It might be brought up by some that even "the tempter" used Scripture to tempt Jesus with.
I will point out that the translation that the tempter used, contained an omission, and had it not been removed first by the tempter, The verse would have not been a temptation.

clarity

I know this is off topic, but some of these posts completely lack love, patience, gentleness etc. It always makes me wonder when I see someone who claims to be "holy" but lacks love. The closer you get to Jesus the more loving you become. Even if you get all your doctrine 100 percent correct, you can move mountains with your faith, understand all mysteries etc without love you have missed the whole point.

"Forget Matt Slick and Luther and Spurgeon and see the scriptures with an open mind apart from the influence they have on your viewpoint."

In the quote above, the person quoted must have forgotten to add the name Tyler to the forget list. So don't forget to forget everything Tyler has written.

Oh...on second thought...maybe you should just forget what I just said!

In the quote above, the person quoted must have forgotten to add the name Tyler to the forget list. So don't forget to forget everything Tyler has written.

Oh...on second thought...maybe you should just forget what I just said!

Thanks brother, I think this thread needed a little tongue in cheek humor.

That I may become less and he may become more. I push no doctrine or agenda other then that men would be wholly committed to Christ and His teachings apart from the influence of the doctrines of men. So yes you are correct I did forget to add myself to that list. Thank you!

Hi brother:

I appreciate your question, but I think that paedobaptists would say that the Scriptures teach infant baptism. Here is an article that I have come across:

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The church should certainly baptize the children of believers. The practice of paedobaptism is not simply a matter of tradition or the prescription of our confession of faith (WCF 28.4). Rather, it is rooted and prescribed in the Holy Scriptures. Since baptism is the sign of the New Covenant that replaces the Old Covenant sign of circumcision (Mt 28:19-20, Col 2:11-12), it follows that those who belong to the New Covenant must be baptized. And since the children of believers belong to the New Covenant (Ac 2:38-39, 1 Cor 7:14), they must also be baptized. We should note that when Jesus gave the command to baptize, He also gave a particular condition: the people who are baptized must be discipled and taught to obey the Lord’s commandments (Mt 28:19-20). But, He gave no prerequisite related to a personal profession of faith, maturity of understanding, or personal obedience.
Credobaptists reject infant baptism for several reasons. First, as Bruce Ware has stated in Baptism: Three Views, they believe that the New Testament simply does not prescribe the baptism of infants. However, this statement fails to recognize that covenant children are also being discipled (Mt 28:19-20) and doesn’t read passages that mention the baptism of entire households through the covenantal lenses of Scripture. Sinclair Ferguson correctly pointed out that in the New Testament, God deals with the households of believers as part of the covenant. Moreover, since the apostle Paul makes a clear connection between circumcision and baptism (Col 2:11-12), by default baptism should also be applied to the children of God’s covenant people under the New Covenant, unless otherwise proscribed. Besides, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2 and 1 Peter 3:20-21 force us to recognize that the doctrine of baptism was already present in seminal form in the Old Testament, where the water ordeals of entire households in the days of Noah and Moses are described as types of baptism.
Some credobaptists have argued that the children of believers do not belong to the New Covenant because of passages like Jeremiah 31:31-34 (cf. Hebrews 8:8-12) and Ezekiel 36:26-27, which describe the blessings of the New Covenant such as knowing the Lord, having the Law of God on the heart and mind, receiving a new heart, having all sins forgiven, and obeying all of God’s statutes and rules. But, only an over-realized eschatology would lead someone to claim that these conditions and blessings of the New Covenant have already been fully realized. Obviously, even believers do not perfectly follow the Lord’s statutes and rules because their sinful flesh has not yet been eradicated. Rather, those passages describe the New Covenant in its eschatological fullness; it has been inaugurated, but it has not yet been fully realized. Besides, other passages teach that people can be sanctified in the New Covenant and still reject its eternal blessings (Heb 10:26-29, 12:22-25). The same is true of the children of believers who are sanctified, that is, made holy by virtue of God’s covenant with the believing parent (1 Cor 7:14). Bruce Ware has argued that this simply means that the unbelieving spouse and children are "set apart to gospel witness” due to the presence of the believer. However, this interpretation is completely divorced from the use of αγιαζω (to make holy or to set apart) and αγιος (holy) in the New Testament, including how Paul uses those words in his letter to the Corinthians. It always denotes a special relationship with God by virtue of His covenant.
Finally, some people may argue that Romans 6:3-8 teaches that everyone who receives the sign of baptism must be regenerated. However, this fails to recognize that not everyone who receives the sign (water baptism) also receives the thing signified (Spirit baptism). Howard Griffith correctly stated that we must distinguish between the sign and the thing signified without separating them. Also, as Bavinck pointed out, even in the case of adult baptisms, [w]e are never totally certain that a given person is not a hypocrite and hence receives the sacrament illegitimately” (p.526). We cannot avoid the predicament that the New Covenant church is currently made up of a mixture of elect and reprobate, which will only be settled when the Lord will finally bring about the eschatological fullness of the New Covenant (Mt 13:24-30, 25:31-46). In baptism, professing believers and their children receive the sign and seal of the eternal benefits of the covenantal union with the exalted Christ, which are appropriated by faith. Let us improve our baptism and not refuse Him who spoke to us through the sprinkled blood of the New Covenant (Heb 12:24-25).

For further studies, please consult this interview with Dr. Richard Gaffin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDqmENmL_Gk.
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So, as much as I appreciate your question, I think that we have to be fair and recognize that some doctrines may not be as easy to grasp as others. Not every doctrine comes in the form of "Thou shalt..." Personally, I appreciate the fact that God has given us mystery. It is part of the esthetic value of his intricate redemptive history.

Nevertheless, it is good for you to remind us that we have to make sure that the Scriptures guide us, rather than the doctrines of men.

Blessings,
Renoncer

Great posts, proudpapa! I appreciate them.

To embrace Jesus is to embrace His Scripture.

To embrace His Scripture is to embrace Him.

yuehan ,

When I woke up this morning before I started the computer , I thought about you ,
I thought I have not seen yuehan post anything in a while.
and than I got on SI and I see an encouraging word from you.