End time teaching of Elijah in the last days

This is to Staff and to any other person who knows about this endtime teaching of Elijah in the last days. Staff has mentioned this several times in his posts and beliefs that we can’t even consider the end times unless we consider Elijah.

I’m not saying I’ve exhausted end times study but in the pre-trib camp, I didn’t hear about it, nor when I was in the middle trib camp for awhile did I ever hear of it and neither have I heard about it in post trib.

So I investigated this teaching just a bit. Several websites of this teaching are taught heavily in the Seventh Day Adventist and in Herbert W. Armstrong’s church, they even went so far to say that they thought Herbert was Elijah but of course, he died.

First, are you from either one of those of those churches? Second, I'm asking because I would like further understanding where this teaching is coming from; I read through a few thread from SI (posted below).

I’m just trying to figure out where you are coming from on this because unless two be agreed, they cannot walk together. Years ago, I was in a heavy discussion about a verse from Revelation and the other person’s sights were on the word, "it” and my sights were on the word "keep.” Well, of course we never came to an agreement!

by staff on thread, "A Prophetic Word from Dietrich Bonhoeffer” 2010

The problem with the post is that it doesnt take into account God's plan and protection for the end time Church.
I've said it before and I'l continue till it happens.The end time church comes under the Ministry and Spirit of Elijah.
All the church will come out of their denominational Churches and come under the protection of this ministry.
Deitrich Bonhoeffer did not know this so although most of his message is right he came to the wrong conclusion.
The end time Church will be a very confrontational Church it wont be the turn the other cheek doormat Church where we will stay in the way of every hit. The fight will be taken to the world by the Church, It will be a fight however and we will take hits.
Persecution will always be with us its a given sometimes more some times less but if we conclude the way Dietrich Bonhoeffer concludes we will preach Persecution not the Gospel of Christ and this is sad,
Yours Staff

by staff on thread, "The LAST OUTPOURING by David Wilkerson” 2011

But if you study the end times without taking into account Elijah story in Kings and Ahab being a type of the antichrist or the relationship between Elijah and 42mths then you will miss most of the timing. I suggest you read the account again with ahab being a type of antichrist and jezebel being a type of false relgion. For instance Ahab wanted the vineyard and Jezebel helped get it for him but ELijah stepped in would look totally different, staff

by staff, The of the remnant church in these last days.If you believe in a Jezebel, page 3

Church then you will also have to also believe in an Elijah Church. If you study the prophetic story around Jezebel the type of whore church, Ahab the type of Antichrist and Elijah then you will look at things differently. It shows that the Church of the end is huge, why that is so, it challenges and it is protected by God. You will see why it is so successful. Basically a study of the 3 characters mentioned tells you more of whats going to happen in the end than the whole book of revelation.!
This is why most people dont really understand whats going to happen, I challenge you to look again over the next few weeks at the passages in Kings and see what the Lord shows you

Nothing will be posted by me between the hours of 8:00 am and 6:30 pm, m-f because I am working and in the car. But I will reply.

Thank you, Lisa

Hi Lysa

I stand by all I have said on Elijah and the end times.
However I consider this comment as trying to associate me with Seventh Day Adventist which is incorrect and doesnt enlighten the discussion.
..........................................................
So I investigated this teaching just a bit. Several websites of this teaching are taught heavily in the Seventh Day Adventist and in Herbert W. Armstrong’s church, they even went so far to say that they thought Herbert was Elijah but of course, he died.
............................................................
I have nothing to do and have got no teaching from any Seventh day adventist sources.
urs staff
Edited:P.s I Edited this post because part of my original reply wasnt given in the right Spirit

Hi Lysa ,
In a way I am glad to give account of what I have studied if anyone is genuinely interested no problem.. and I am sure that you probably didnt intentionally try to associate me with Seventh Day Adventist Teachings on hindsight.
Before I get to any point Jacob Prasch a preacher who has a fair few sermons on sermonindex also believes in Elijah coming again in the last days and he is certainly not a seventh day adventist!
I whole heartedly stand by all of the posts you have stated.
Let me explain where the teaching is coming from
I just started reading the bible and like all Christians the Spirit started revealing passages.I checked and double checked were they scriptural and then I checked some more and I am 100% sure in my mind that what I am saying is correct.I began to look up preachers who preached on the subject.The only one that talked extensively was the above mentioned J Prasch.Their are many preachers who believe in a future Elijah but he is the only one with any kind of understanding in my opinion.
I felt led to study extensively on it and I am just saying what I have found.It is up to you and anyone else to be like the Berean and check for them selves.

Whether their is a future Elijah is not in doubt when you look at the two witnesses in Revelation.All most all preachers Post ,Mid or Pre think that one of the two witnesses is Elijah.Nothing new there and they are in the future last time I checked.

I challenge anyone to read the passage on Pentecost for instance.
Peter stands up and says we need to get the 11 Apostles back up to Twelve.The qualification is that the Apostle had to first be a disciple of John The Baptist(who is Elijah if you care to accept him) Dont you find that a bit strange?I did and I looked further.Note:Pentecost could not happen until the twelve apostles(stones)were restored.Where else are twelve stones and Elijah mentioned in the same breath?Where else are twelve stones restored?

I saw that John baptised Jesus and noticed most commentators said this was because Jesus was being humble and identifying himself with us.There is a measure of truth in it but only a measure.What stood out for me was that Jesus said "let it be so,so that all will be fullfilled" and I realized that John The Baptist was fullfilling his role as "Elijah".How?By pouring water over the sacrifice(Jesus)
I am sure everyone understands the teaching that John came as Elijah to make way for Jesus.You then have to ask how did John make way for Jesus.What did he do?Why was he like Elijah?
1:He had the same Spirit as Elijah(came in the spirit and power of Elijah)
2:Wore the same clothes,came in the wildnerness,baptised where Elijah was at the Jordon etc (he followed the exact pattern)
3Poured water over the sacrifice (Jesus)
4He restored 12 stones as Peter points out before Pentecost
just like Elijah did.
The list goes on and on like that...
I then noticed that John The Baptist in one way or another played out the role of Elijah from when he was in his mothers womb right up until Pentecost
I noticed that John The Baptist in his life time and beyond his own life did exactly what Elijah did on Mount Carmel.

The step to a future Elijah is simple in ways
Who are the two witnesses?and their is only one pattern to follow ...someone who is linked inextricably with 3 and 1/2 years and who has the same powers as the witnesses.Nothing new there either almost all preachers believe one of the witnesses is Elijah.Most commentators say Elijah and Enoch or Elijah and Moses but Elijah is always one.
The new thing I am saying is that the future Elijah follows the pattern of the past Elijah's except not pouring water on the sacrifice thats a two off event only(has been fullfilled once and for all).What else new am I saying ?That Mount Carmel is basically a prophesy of Pentecost.In essence one is a prophesy in type of the other,

Now its up to you to study the parrellels and pattern and I guess the one thing that is fustrating is that people are willing to accept the typology of the temple and the typology of inner court and outer court etc but wont except the clearer,simplier typology of Elijah coming before Jesus,
I genuinely hope this is helpful Lysa and im not putting out anything that cant be checked.I challenge anyone to make three columns 1:Elijah 2 John The Baptist 3 The Two Witnesses and see the parrellels and Pattern
urs staff
I checked one of Praschs Sermons is "One messiah,two comings" which may touch on the subject and he also did a Sermon "Elijah a man that could make it rain" and I remember it was more extensive but it isnt on SI.

Why would all or any of this matter to a church which you advocate will not be here for any of it because it will have been raptured before any of it occurs? If the church as you say cannot come close to understanding the end times without understanding this teaching on Elijah why should it matter if the church will not be here during the major events of the end? Under the pre-trib scenario, by the time the two witnesses appear the church will have been snatched away several years before they appear. If one of the two witnesses is Elijah why should it matter to a church that anticipates being gone? Why should the church be prepared to come under this Elijah ministry if the church is to be raptured during times of normalcy before Elijah appears again?

Who does God send Elijah to? Who is Elijah speaking to, who is he a profit to?

Malachi 4:4-6 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

All Israel. Not the Body of Christ His Church, His Bride, which is not Israel.

Israel is earthly which all the promises of God to Israel are earthly, protection, land, mercy on earth to Gods son Israel, His chosen people. The Body of Christ and all our promises are heavenly, The Fathers House, many mansions, seated on the throne with Christ, Where?

If Elijah is for the church, why not the 144,000 of the `12 tribes also?

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Greg
Jacob Prasch a preacher on SI believes more or less the same as I.
Its also worth noting that many false Messiahs came in before Jesus day and nothing came of them.
Was the teaching that A Messiah would come wrong Greg?no

Its also worth noting that the Devil trys to corrupt any teaching of God just like he did with the teaching of a coming Messiah before Jesus day.

Just because these groups or individuals went into err doesnt mean that the teaching is wrong.We have had err to do with almost every doctrine and you can rhyme of a list for any doctrine.

I think the most dissapointing aspect of your reply Greg is that instead of looking at the plain points I have made all valid all scriptural,instead of answering where you think the scripture doesnt add up you choose to take the above route.

I believe you should check scripture with scripture and if their is an err then show where it is ........

Also the two witnesses are just men should we not look and expect them to come?

So my advice is dont throw the baby out with the bath water until you have been like the Berean and check it all out,
Again Jacob Prasch a preacher on SI believes more or less the same as I,
urs staff

Hi Docs,
Let me answer your last question first

Why was anyone prepared to go out in the wilderness to see John The Baptist?Beacuse he came in the spirit and power.
The Church will be no different they will go out of their comfortable churches out to the wilderness because of power.
Thats where the power will be.

As to the Pre trib question.
The 7 years are made up of two halves and its only the second half which when the Judgement comes.The first half is a normal time in the sense of eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage etc

Again the two witnesses have been swept under the carpet because they dont fit into our views,

The Jewish typology didnt stop 2000 yrs ago the Jewish Typology continues to the End and even into Eternity.

Who else except for Daniel getting an explanation is associated with 3 /1/2 or times time and half a time or 1260 days?
urs staff

by staff
I have nothing to do and have got no teaching from any Seventh day adventist sources.
urs staff
Edited:P.s I Edited this post because part of my original reply wasnt given in the right Spirit

(edit) And I just didn't mention 7th day Adventist either, I mentioned the HA too.unedit

by staff
I genuinely hope this is helpful Lysa and im not putting out anything that cant be checked.I challenge anyone to make three columns 1:Elijah 2 John The Baptist 3 The Two Witnesses and see the parrellels and Pattern
urs staff

I think Christinyou has a point, the endtime reference for Elijah is in Malachi not in Revelation and it is primarily related regarding Israel who is up to now is waiting for their Messiah. They do not believe in Jesus but they will believe in someone else to their own peril.

Hi Philip

If you read the Pentecost verses(the so called Birthday of the Church)
you will see that Pentecost comes from John not Jesus.
Jesus is the sacrifice that made it happen.
John is the Elijah that rounded up the twelve stones and poured water over the sacrifice and then the fire fell like it did on Mt Carmel.
John is the man that preached that "The Messiah" was coming soon.
Unlike the false Messiahs and the False Elijahs mentioned by Greg earlier John as will any future Elijah point humbly to the Coming Messiah not to themselves.
We see that Peter's qualification for an Apostle is that like himself and the other 11 Apostles they had to have come under Johns Ministry.

Look at the similarities

Mt Carmel
A person with the Spirit of Elijah
Comes out of Nowhere
Wears A specific garment
Comes preaching in the wilderness
Causes drought for 3 1/2 years
12 Stones
Wood placed in Order
Water Poured over the sacrifice and the 12 stones
Fire Fell and consumed
Crosses the Jordan
Preaches/Ministers to a wicked King Ahab
Has a conflict with a wicked woman who wants his head

Time of Christ
A person with the Spirit of Elijah
Wears a specific garment
Comes preaching in the wilderness
Comes out of Nowhere(although we know the story of his birth)
Causes the Blessing for 3 1/2 years
3 1/2 Years is associated with him through Jesus Minstry
12 Stones the Apostles
A Cross made a specific way made of Wood
Water poured over Jesus the Sacrifice
Fire Fell on Pentecost immediately after the 12th stone is restored and had to have come from John or Elijah if you care to accept him
Baptised at the same place Elijah Crosses
Preaches/Minister to a wicked King
Has a conflict with a wicked woman who gets his head

Are these things coincidence?If so then all the temple typology is just coincidence!
If you want to know about what is going to happen then you have to find out what originally happened.

The future Spirit of Elijah whether it be just one man or the complete Church will follow the same pattern.

urs staff

by docs
Why would all or any of this matter to a church which you advocate will not be here for any of it because it will have been raptured before any of it occurs?

by staff
As to the Pre trib question.
The 7 years are made up of two halves and its only the second half which when the Judgement comes.The first half is a normal time in the sense of eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage etc

Staff,

I've read in other discussions where you stated that you were mid-trib. Again, not accusatory, just trying to make sense because what Docs said is true.

Also, I found the sermon you spoke of on youtube and will listen to it!! God bless

Hi Passerby,
I think I answered that point in Christinyou post.
Basically John is the very beginning of the Church and will be the very end of the Church as well.
It is clear that God has a plan for Israel and that only when things get totally desperate will they turn to him,
The prophesy in Malachi is for the great and terrible day of the Lord which are more than one day,
It is also clear that God has a plan for the Church and this plan started with a Pentecost that originated with John and where Jesus was the sacrifice.Jesus needed someone to make a way for him,someone to get the Jewish people expectant,someone who did some groundwork or someone to get the stage ready swept and clean and in order for the Main Performer Jesus
urs staff

Hi Greg
Repectfully I was only pointing out just because their is Error doesnt mean that the teaching is wrong it only means that the teaching has been corrupted by men or angels.

The fact that you believe that one of the two witnesses is Elijah and that he is coming in the future probably indicates to you that their is a future Elijah of the end times.
All I am explaining is what he does and why he is coming and why he is so important in the end.
I am explaining what I believe I have been shown through scripture and its up to everyone to look and examine it for yourselves
Again Elijah wont come and say look at me but will come and say look at Christ,a crucial difference between the false and the good,
urs staff

Hi Lysa
I view mid trib as pre trib and also Im not sure whether the Church will be raptured or just "kept safe" like in Noahs day,
I would if pushed come down on the side of the rapture because of the typology of Mt Carmel,Either way I dont believe we will come under Gods Judgements in fact i think we would just get in the way
urs staff

Jesus reply,

And they asked him, "Why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” And he said to them, "Elijah does come first to restore all things. And how is it written of the Son of Man that he should suffer many things and be treated with contempt? But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written of him.”
Mark 9:11-13

And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” He answered, "Elijah does come, and he will restore all things. But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.
Matthew 17:10-13

Hi Savannah,
NASB
9 As they were coming down from the mountain, He gave them orders not to relate to anyone what they had seen, [f]until the Son of Man rose from the dead. 10 They [g]seized upon [h]that statement, discussing with one another [i]what rising from the dead meant. 11 They asked Him, saying, "Why is it that the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things. And yet how is it written of the Son of Man that He will suffer many things and be treated with contempt? 13 But I say to you that Elijah has [j]indeed come, and they did to him whatever they wished, just as it is written of him.”

What I take from that is this and I have looked at alot in the past
John is dead at this stage but Jesus says "Elijah Does Come"
My understanding is what he means is Elijah does come before the Messiah" and then explains John was the Elijah before the Messiah.
What it doesnt say is that Elijah or the Messiah are not coming again.
What it may be saying is that Elijah Does come in the future and we would have to know exactly what Elijah has to restore and see did John fullfill all of the restoration
I cant remember whether the "Does" is considered past present or future tense.I'l check again.Why did he not say did come straight out ,does answers the question as well granted but "did come" is the perfect answer as John was dead at the time.Every jot and tittle counts I believe.
When you take into account how Jewish prophesy is understood then it has a future fullfillment.
How they look at is one fullfillment,then another and so on with an ultimate fullfillment .The previous fullfillments tell something about the ultimate fullfillment.
urs staff

Jacob Prasch seems to teach against the pre-trib view.

Meanwhile, if a church of power leaves its comfortable churches and comfort zone and goes to the wilderness full of power what will be the purpose or use for it all? If this church full of power in the wilderness is going to be snatched away before its power can be used during bad times then a move to the wilderness outside of their comfortable churches basically is non relevant. What type of end time role is that for the church? Would not a separated church full of power be called to display this power of Christ or will its role be to separate and become full of power just to be caught away and not display any of its power? The two witnesses appear in the time of trouble but if the church is gone it wont have a whit of meaning for a church that was bursting at the seams with the power of Christ before it was taken away.

The middle wall of partition divided Jews and Gentiles but the pre-trib teaching that tribulation believers will not be part of the of the church erects a middle wall of partition between the spiritual sons of Abraham. If membership in the church supposedly ends at a pre-trib rapture and tribulation believers who put their faith in Christ will never be part of the church then this view calls into question the very nature of the church. John Darby was the first ever to propose this. If a latter day Elijah is sent to Israel (the church now gone) and many in Israel turn to the Lord in faith and are washed in the blood of Christ how can it be advocated they will never be part of the Church? When the pre-trib view is presented why are these views that accompany it seldom mentioned?

Hi Docs
I think that Jacob Prasch teaches against Once saved always saved and I think he is either Pre trib or Mid Trib but he definitely thinks Elijah comes again before Christ comes...

I think Elijah is sent to Israel and the Church at the same time and not in the second half of the Tribulatin but in the first half ..just a thought maybe thats why their are Two Witnesses..but the testimony of the witnesses is in the first half not the second,
urs staff

Hi Blaine,
Definitely John fullfilled the role of Elijah and was the Elijah that was to come .It doesnt mean that he isnt coming again though!Also I noticed that Elijah as in John wasnt recognised and thats still happening today in my opinion in large we arent reconising that he is coming again.
One other point if the people of the day had trouble recognising him and trouble understanding the simple how could Jesus explain that he would come again and why would he ?

”¢”¢”¢And His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that "Elijah must come first?” And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things; but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also "the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” [[[Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.]]]”¢

urs staff

Hi Docs
I think u are missing my point regarding the Church in the wilderness.
Their is an amazing paralel between both Elijah and John that cant be ignored
All Israel went out to see Elijah
All Judea and the surrounds went out to see John

Their will be a going out is what I mean and it will bring an end to denominational Churches.
The false leaders and even some good ones will be trying to keep control by going out with them but Elijah will say ye brood of vipers as was said before.
The Church will be in a position to preach one last time to all the corners of the Earth .
What will Elijah preach?What will the Church Preach?
Simple really they will preach the same message as the first time Christ came,Repent Christ is coming and he is coming soon...
urs staff

I see what you mean by going out. But when did Elijah and John the Baptist just suddenly vanish when people went out to hear them? If this Church in the wilderness preaches repentance and the soon coming of Christ then suddenly disappears what will be the explanation? Will those asking what happened be told yes this disappeared church preached the soon coming of Christ but what has just happened at this rapture was indeed Christ coming for His Church but don't mistake it for the second coming this Church preached about. This was just a coming before the second coming. Think it through staff good bro. What a mismash of confusion. Then we are to believe those washed in the blood of Christ during the tribulation (Rev 7:14) will not be part of the body of Christ. And they will be saved while not having the Spirit dwell within them! How more absurd can the pre-trib view become? It's a ruse from start to finish.

The timing of the Day of the Lord (which the pre-trib view was forced to change to stay credible) and the timing of the last trumpet signalling the resurrection of the dead has your view snookered behind the eight ball with no way out. You said you don't know much about the trumpets. Well, that's okay. I'm not trying to be condescending but if you want to look at them together I would be glad to do so.

Thank you for your witness and strong commitment to Christ.

The two witnesses appear in the interlude between the sounding of the sixth and seventh trumpets. How is that the first half of the tribulation?

Hi Greg
I am not saying that at all,
I was stating that the Church (true Church) will come back under Apostolic Doctrine similar to the early church.Denominations will by in large cease due to Apostolic Doctrine.Remember Greg all things although impossible to you are possible to God,even Church unity.
You have to remember that in the Jewish Wedding about which much is always said what is role of the "friend of the bridegroom" and what are the roles in the Jewish wedding of the "Two Witnesses"???
urs staff

Hi Docs,
The Two witnesses prophecy for 1260 days which is 3 1/2 years.
The time they prophesy the Anti Christ is not in full control and its in peace time .Their are only two 3 1/2 year periods the first and the second and its not the second.
If the witness isnt Elijah then who is he?Why would God send a Herald? and what would he be heralding?
What about my Earlier posts regarding the similarites between John and Elijah are they just coincidence Docs and Greg?
Isnt it a good idea at least if you want to find out what a future Elijah does that we should look at what he did in the past?I think it is.
Isnt it strange that their are 12 stones put in the middle of the Jordon?and John Baptises in the Jordon and Elijah Crosses the Jordon.Is it at all possible that God is saying I put something there study and find out why I did these odd things,
By in large denominational Churches means division and for a short sharp period the names may remain but the division will disappear is what I think will happen,Isnt it possble that God can bring about unity ,I think it is,
urs staff

Hi Docs
I Think thats a very good question and I do have an answer I believe.
The Church whether it is "kept safe" or "Raptured" will not suddenly disappear in the "blinking of an eye".Let me explain.
When Jesus was translated he was seen for I am guessing but for a minute or two until he went through the clouds,when Elijah was taken by the Chariots it was and event seen and took probably up to a minute ,im guessing.The point is that the events were clearly seen by all that were there.
Why then do we think the rapture is instantaneous and unseen?
Because of "the twinkling of an eye" scripture but it doesnt say the the rapture is in the twinkling of an eye it says our bodies will be changed to glorius bodies in the twinkling of an eye.The going up in the air will be seen by all and will take seconds or minutes like it was with Jesus.
The point is if you being a non Christian and see a Christian right beside you go up in the air ?what effect will it have on you?Will it make you believe that the Christian was right about Christ coming?

f this Church in the wilderness preaches repentance and the soon coming of Christ then suddenly disappears what will be the explanation?
urs staff

Hi Greg
Of course it does mean a Triune God thats an usual statement dont you think?
Ok so you are putting too much emphasis on Church history and not enough on what the bible actually says. you only commented on the difficult things but on things that are easily scripturally understood you didnt .So you are not being gracious here .I have explained the simple parrelels between Elijah John and The witnesses and basically you havent commented.
I dont believe Enoch is one of the witnesses as all the powers mentioned are of Elijah only.The only other option is Moses and if you look closely only one of the powers could be of Moses but that same power could be also attributed to Elijah.Enoch is thought of because like Elijah he didnt die and all men are appointed to die once.But if you go strictly by the books then Lazarus died twice so he breaks the rule.
May I add that I think the End times Church will know more about the end times than the Church Fathers,
urs staff

When our bodies are instantaneously changed is at the last trumpet. I Cor 15:50-52 makes this VERY CLEAR. So the bodies of the saints cannot be changed when you say they will because another trumpet is to sound several years later at the second coming of Christ (Matt 24:31). It is the very last trumpet mentioned anywhere thus rendering a trumpet sounding years before incapable of being the trumpet signalling the glorification of the bodies of the saints.

Do you believe the bodies of the saints living and dead will be changed at the last trumpet?

Hi all,
I am trying to answer your questions as precisely as possible.
Its not easy as most things I studied years ago and some are just coming back to me.
I would like you to comment on what I have said about John The Baptist and the role he played in Pentecost as I think thats a very important scripture even if you dont think Elijah is coming again.
I would also like to you to comment on John pouring the water over Jesus and why Jesus said so all righteousness would be fullfilled anoter important scripture.
If you have compiled the similarities between John ,Elijah and The Two Witneses it would be interesting to know whether you think the similarities are just coincidence or whether its a pattern...
On believing whether Elijah comes back in future then the Church fathers and I are in agreement as the Church Fathers believed one of the witnesses to be Elijah...
urs staff

Hi Docs
My point is that because of that Scripture everyone thinks that the rapture will be over in a twinkling but it never says that ,it says that our bodies will be changed in a twinkling of an eye,
The dead will rise and then those that remain ,this will take time is what I am saying but the changing from a corruptible body into a glorius one will be in a twinkling instantaneous,
no matter when the rapture occurs pre mid or post.Look at the two witnesses themselves they rose and everyone saw them for a brief time.The changing of the bodies to new ones is only one part of the rapture when ever it happens it isnt the complete process..no matter when the trumpet blasts.
urs staff

Thanks Lysa,
I didnt expect this today ....just what I needed lol.
Can I comment on the following scripture
It is obvious when u read this carefully that the witnesses dont actually breath fire(literal fire)The fire that proceeds from their mouth is the word of God,the scriptures.
One other thing about these verses is that Elijah caused waters to turn red in the old testament.

And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
urs staff

Hi Greg
Sorry I missed that as their was alot of posts
My answer is I how do I Know but id say not .I just studied the bible and the Holy Spirit started showing me scriptures and I checked them out and found them to be true in my opinion.Whether it is a fresh revelation or not I dont know.I would be lying to you if I said that this didnt happen though.
I would be seriously surprized if he has not being saying the same thing all over the world.I would say their are many but I am only guessing.When I talk to my friends particularly my Pastor a good friend its easy to communicate but on a forum their are so many crossed wires and blind alleys you have to go down and back up to get ur point across.Jacob Prasch has some failings but when it comes to teaching through a Jewish perspective he is very good I find and I would be surprized if you talked to him personally that he would diagree with me.Chuck Missler who is also on SI would believe in a coming Elijah I believe.People tend to accept what I say to be true when they look into it and especially when they are not entrenched in Tribulation view.
All I am saying is what has been said in the past Elijah is coming again.The Church Fathers said it,modern day preachers said it and I am saying it too.
I just expanded on what he is going to be doing.
So no i am not a messeneger just a person who reads his bible and the Holy Spirit is involved in that study as he should be.I am trying to answer Lysa as honestly as I can realizing no matter how well we are informed about any subject to do with the bible including me we are looking through a glass dimly and its harder to see than if it was well lit.I will be surprized if the end times church will not be more informed about the end than the church fathers and that it will be in line with the bible.
It didnt occur to me before but I suppose it would be fair to ask you do you believe their can be fresh revelation to the Church if it is in line with scripture?
urs staff

I knew what your main point was staff I just think you are ignoring mine or are just unable to see it right. You said, "No matter when the trumpets sound." Let's look at that.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For THE TRUMPET will sound, and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED incorruptible, and we shall all be changed. (I Cor 15:52)

So the translation of all saints living and dead (the dead shall be raised) takes place at the LAST TRUMPET. Therefore how can the saints living and dead be raised at a trumpet seven or three and half years before another final last trumpet is to blow at the second coming of Christ several years later (Matt 24:31)? The question is very basic and understandable. How can a trumpet to be blown at a pre-trib rapture be intelligently referred to as the last trumpet signalling the resurrection of the dead if it is still to be followed by another trumpet at the second coming?

Hi Docs
The Trumpets are thing disputed by many on both sides and I honestly do not have any insight into them as of yet.You are saying that you get my point about the twinkling of an eye and I get your point about the Trumpet and a Pre trib member of SI who has studied seriously the Trumpets would have to answer that.I would be equally interested to hear their answer to your question
So Docs has asked a question,its a fair question has any Pre tribber got an answer?
The Question is:
How can a trumpet to be blown at a pre-trib rapture be intelligently referred to as the last trumpet signalling the resurrection of the dead if it is still to be followed by another trumpet at the second coming?
urs staff

Hi Lysa
I think if you look up J Prasch The Future History of The Church it may help you ,
urs staff

Hi Docs
I am going to look that up though ,urs staff

Thank you. I only offer it because I see it as a very useful chronological marker.

Blessings.

Hi Docs
I am saying for you to look into what I am saying and its only fair the I research ur points as well and no matter what the end actually is,the main problem we all have is Chronology,
ur staff

Quote by Staff: It didnt occur to me before but I suppose it would be fair to ask you do you believe their can be fresh revelation to the Church if it is in line with scripture?

Good question

Think back to the OT- what was the significance of having two witnesses?

Got ya.

Hi Greg,
Thanks for the detailed reply.
I say this now from a concerned point of view and probably ur post has highlight the importance and the problem with having a Tribulation view.
I believe you are being too cautious and have missed the blessing of the scripture by this approach.Each view I have found to have downsides the Pre and the Post .The downside of the Post is being always on the defensive and missing out on the blessing .
On specific point below: Think about what you are saying here and how illogical it is.If you cant take the number 12 and say its typical or symbolical then all symbolism or typology should not be taught.Added to that if you cant take a stone as a symbol then no symbolism should be taught.
When you added them together it is definite typology.
I cant have double standards when it comes to typology
If I leave out the 12stones then I have to leave out Temple typology,the tabernacle,the Ark even the sacrificial system with its implements.For instance discovering Passover tells us about Christ the sacrifice.Passover is full of typology.
....................................................
Quote :And taking other typologies like the 12 stones etc simply goes too far and is making more of this then I believe the Lord would want
........................................................
I will expand on the 12 stones but basically Peter stood up and said that we need to restore the 12 and he needed to be Johns disciple,the very next line the fire falls and this is not strange or connected to Elijah who took 12 stones on mt Carmel and the fire fell?.Even if you dont except that, what then are the 12 stones,wood in order,12 parts of water,the bullock sacrifice,the fire falling a symbol off?What is it all about?
You see if we except that the "bullock" a beast of burden is "Christ the sacrifice burdening our sins" then we have to accept the wood and stones and Elijah as having future typological significance.

It is indeed a very detailed typology right down to little details For instance at Pentecost there were "tongues of fire" and on Mt Carmel their is a reference to a tongue as well in the sense that everything "was licked up"only a tongue could do that.

Doesnt Ephesians 2:20 say that the Apostles were part of the foundations of the Church?and that the Prophets also represented by the ulitmate Prophet according to Jesus which is John?Jesus being the Cornerstone.So the typology of the 12 stones is not new and not going to far or reading into it too much.
Doesnt Revelation 21 say that the foundation of wall of the New Jerusalem had twelve stones each were written the name of the twelve Apostles?.am I saying anything new?
No to reject my simple typology would be reject the more difficult typology of the tabernacle and temple,
Doesnt Jesus call Peter a "Rock"?

One important point you made and I didnt realize was peple believed about the Church apostated after the Apostles death I want to comment on.
I dont believe the Church apostated after they died.
However it became fundamentally different over time and the Apostolic Authority that was there under John the Apostle and Peter and Paul was and has not been their since.
We do not have Apostles like those Apostles in the church today ,we just dont ,we may have Church planting type but we dont have the Apostle with Authority,Could you imagine the difference the Church would be if we did have Paul and Peter and John ?The scriptures that have been left in the sense of the bible didnt replace the Apostolic authority of Paul and Peter but they do describe what that Authority was like.
I believe thats what a coming Elijah would restore.If thats restored Unity is then restored,if unity is restored then the denominations with Christians in them who are not bad in themselves loose importance,
Believing in a Pre trib or Mid trib brings problems and issues but so also does believing in a Post Trib,one of them is missing the blessing that scripture brings,I have to except typology and symbolism completely or not at all.
urs staff

by staff
Definitely John fullfilled the role of Elijah and was the Elijah that was to come. It doesnt mean that he isnt coming again though! Also I noticed that Elijah as in John wasnt recognised and thats still happening today in my opinion in large we arent reconising that he is coming again.
One other point if the people of the day had trouble recognising him and trouble understanding the simple how could Jesus explain that he would come again and why would he?

Also, I was reading about the two witnesses this morning and something caught my eye in Rev 11:7

When they finish their testimony, THE BEAST THAT ASCENDS OUT OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Isn't there is only the ONE time that the dragon, the beast, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan is thrown into the bottomless pit? And is in Rev 20:2-3?

Here’s Rev 20:2

And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

And then he is released in Rev 20:7:

7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle;...

From the Scripture, could your timing be off when the two witnesses are here? Or how many beasts ascend of the bottomless pit?

by staff
Thanks Lysa,
I didnt expect this today ....just what I needed lol.

Quote by Greg: But it is factual that the influx of thousands of cult groups and false teachings in the last 200 years particularly have all stemmed from the belief of "restorationism" which believes the church apostated after the apostles and now all of a sudden the truth is re-revealed in the modern day through the man of the hour. What is unhealthy about this in short is that they can deny all church history, all creeds, belief in the trinity and other core beliefs because God has shown them the real truth of the apostolic doctrine.

Sounds an awful lot like the protestant reformation eh?

What I mean by that is if we recognize the protestant reformation as being from God then we must readily admit that God gives revelation that can contradict established Christianity and church history. I apologize for the terse comment.

How about some specific examples of what you are referring to Martyr? I would be interested.

As to the church not being Israel.

I see the High priest of Israel with his 12 stones as a figure of the true. There is no 13th stone for the church. Jesus is our High priest today. The gentiles are blessed through Ephraim. It's in genesis 48:14-19 when we see in verse 19 that through Ephraim many nations would be blessed and I believe the word "nation" is "Goyim". The story of the wild olive and the natural olive tree also bear this out. The tree is a natural olive tree with wild ones grafted in.

The two witnesses

By 2 or more witnesses is a thing established has been the way of God a long time. Christ and John baptist were the forerunner two witnesses to Israel.

At the end it seems God would just call up the local church. But no, music, denomiantion, doctrine, and even the Bible version, etc has divided us. Satan has really done a great job. The two that come will come with authority, even doing creation wonders so there won't be any misunderstanding who they represent, and they will teach God's way correctly right before the world heads into a terrible time. God has always sent a prophet before a calamity.

Hi Lysa,
On the point of emphasis on the return Christ:

I am just narrowing down my focus on what the coming "Elijah" would do and when not on Christ . The coming Elijah's main role is to announce that "Christ is coming soon"
Lets talk about that just for a minute

John gave a prophesy that Christ was coming and his winnowing fork was in his hand etc
John while in prison couldnt understand and was doubting whether Jesus was the Messiah and he sent word "Are you the Christ or should we look for another"
Why was he unsure?Because Jesus was not coming as the conquering king which John expected but the sacrificial lamb an earlier prohesy of John.

The future coming of Christ whether it be post or pre will be heralded again but this time his winnowing fork will be in his hand ,Judgement is coming.
A future Elijah will as with John totally point to Christ and that he is coming soon.

ON THE TIMING AND WHAT TRIGGERS ELIJAH'S COMING?
(this is interesting no matter whether Elijah ever comes again)

I think its clear that the witnesses come for 3 1/2 years or 1260 days so they will have to come at the beginning of the 7 years to begin ministry or they will have to begin ministry in the Middle.
One old testament insight I believe I got was this and I think its interesting regarding timing but not in days and year terms is this .The trigger if you read 1 Kings carefully for God to send Elijah is what??
Their doesnt seem an obvious trigger until you get rid of the chapter and verse demarcations you will see that the trigger is that Ahab Married Jezebel .The wicked woman who is the Architypical person in the bible who stands for "false religion" marries Ahab a type of the Anti Christ.
It has popped in my head what J Prasch said on a tape I bought that the false religous system marries the false political system.
Whats interesting is that this plays itself out again in Revelation where you have "the woman riding the beast"
So I would say that if you want to know when the Two Witnesses are coming it will be immediately after the false religous system of the world marries the false politcal system of the world.
I think most people miss the trigger for why Elijah came to challenge Ahab ,its hidden but its there, he married Jezebel that the reason
I will mull over what you are saying about the thousand years etc but the Witnesses will have to do as their name suggests and Witness and what will be there Witness?
That as you say Christ is coming ,
urs staff

P.S
I have taken away Chapter and Verse of the last few verses of 1 kings chapter 16 and the first verse of Chapter 17 and you can see and read in sequence Why God Sent Elijah

1:Ahab did the most evil in Gods Sight
2:He Married Jezebel and served Baal because of her
3:He made an Altar because of her
4:He made a groove because of her
5:He allowed Jericho to be rebuilt

And it came to pass, as if it had been a light thing for him to walk in the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, that he took to wife Jezebel the daughter of Ethbaal king of the Zidonians, and went and served Baal, and worshipped him.

And he reared up an altar for Baal in the house of Baal, which he had built in Samaria.
And Ahab made a grove; and Ahab did more to provoke the LORD God of Israel to anger than all the kings of Israel that were before him.

In his days did Hiel the Bethelite build Jericho: he laid the foundation thereof in Abiram his firstborn, and set up the gates thereof in his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by Joshua the son of Nun.

And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

Hi Again,
I just noticed that the start of Chapter 17 begins unusually with "And" as if their should have never been a Chapter break or a full stop after Johua Son of Nun,
urs staff

Chronological problems persist. The two witnesses are killed and resurrected after three and a half days and ascend into heaven. Immediately there is a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city falls and seven thousand perish (Rev 11:11-14). This ends the second woe and the third woe is soon to come. If this is the period in which the two witnesses are active it can't be the first three and a half years (1,260 days) of peace before the tribulation begins. So how can these two witnesses engage in a Elijah type ministry to the church and call the church to the wilderness if that church has already disappeared in a pre-trib rapture before the ministry of the two witnesses begins? Since they are obviously portrayed as appearing and becoming active during the last three and a half years (1,260 days) how can they call and prophesy to a church already snatched away before they begin their ministry?

How can the church consisting of saints dead and alive be caught up and translated at a pre-trib rapture if the last trumpet signalling their translation (I Cor 15:52) occurs at the second coming of Christ (Matt 24:31) after the tribulation of those days (Matt 24:29). Nothing has ever tampered more with the revealed Biblical chronology than trying to fit a pre-trib rapture where it doesn't belong and quite obviously does not fit. God has been good to us and made the scriptures clear and uncomplicated on the issue.

Hi Docs
Ok firstly I think that the Church will be on Earth for the First 3 1/2 years and I dont hold with a Pre Trib view on the rapture that we will be gone before the 7yrs begins.

Also we should not mix the two issues up in the sense what I see in scripture about the two witnesses everyone else does to that at least one of the witnesses has the "spirit of Elijah".
So one of the witnesses of the two (i think its both) has the Spirit and Power of Elijah whether or not what I am saying is correct or not almost all commentators agree on that including as said before by Greg the Church Fathers.
I see the witnesses coming in the first half of the tribulation because the Anti Christ is not in Control only in the second half of the 7 yrs,
urs staff

Hi Docs
I phrased that poorly I cant even read it back myself
...

Almost all commentators agree including the Church Fathers that one of the witnesses is Elijah.
That fact is not dependant on whether I am right or wrong.
There will be a future Elijah would be agreed upon by almost all Tribulation views ie one of the witnesses.

I think they are for the Church and possibly for the Church and Israel at the same time,
urs staff

Hi Martyr
This is something I didnt realize before this thread.

On thinking about it their is a difference between one Church like for instance The Catholic Church becoming Apostate and all Churches becoming Apostate.
In another way : because the Apostles were dead then the all Churches became Apostate which is what these groups would believe.This is incorrect view .Yes it was better when the Apostles were alive and ministring than after they died but just because they are not with us now doesnt mean all Churches are Apostate.What it does mean now is that with the lack of Apostles in the sense of the 12 Apostles means the Church is dis-unified .In practical terms if the Apostles were alive they would have a meeting if their was a theological dispute and make a decision about that dispute and all Churches would except it or if their was a problem in a Church an Apostle like Paul would write a letter or two and come on a visit and sort things out,That doesnt happen today because this type of Apostolic Ministry is not present,
urs staff
ps: A main reason for dis unity is the result of lack of Apostleship

Okay.Thank you. I'm only trying to be a Berean and search the matter through. I have no doubt they will have the spirit of Elijah and may be sent to both Israel and the church.

Yet it is the AC that makes war on them when they finish their testimony (Rev 11:7). When they are resurrected and and ascend into heaven it ends the second woe (Rev 11:14). That can't possibly be in the first half of the seven years. It they prophesy for 1,260 days and are slain at the end of the time their testimony it can't be in the first half. When they ascend the second woe is past and that is during the second half. That's all I am saying.

Thank you.

Hi Docs
I did look at that woe and admit it is a problem but I havent looked deeply into the "woe" like I have the witnesses and may get an answer to that.
On the other hand if their ministry ends at the end of the 7yrs their are bigger chronological problems:
The world is in no fit state and doesnt have the resources either physically or mentally to have a party to celebrate their death ,the world is after going through the "The Great Tribulation".....
I have looked into why I think they have a party though and I think my observations are at least interesting

The witnesses which will include the Church will preach/witness that "Jesus is coming" for 1260days like Elijah should and when the witnesses are killed the world thinks and are so relieved that their is no Judgement and that Jesus didnt come for his followers that they Party hard,They will say those witnesses were just more cranks with an "End of the World" signs around their necks!
Then the rapture happens and like everyone else the witnesses rise to their feet and go!
This is where it has a parralel with Mt Carmel where everyone waited with baited breath to see who would win the contest the Prophets of Baal or Elijah,in this case it will be the false religous system that will be saying those witnesses their crazy ,why should holy people like us be Judged etc.So I am saying that the rapture is probably a competition or the result of a competition where Elijah or the Two witnesses make the heavesns open and the fire to fall and the followers of Christ to be "licked up" to "safety".
urs staff

Yet you have said before that the church will be taken to safety during times of normalcy. If the two witnesses are killed and resurrected and ascend and this ends the second woe then this is deep into the tribulation. Very deep. Plus, the church consisting of saints living and dead can't be translated until the last trumpet (I Cor 15:52) which hasn't sounded yet. The church can't go anywhere before the last trumpet.

Why is it necessary to "make war" on two individuals?

Staff, I agree to an extent. However the Catholic church still maintains this sense of apostolic authority (whether they are actually apostles or not is up to debate.) It seems to me this unifying structure is according to scripture, the disunity lies with protestants who are doing what is right in their own eyes and do not answer to any authority except the ones they themselves have established. In this i think the Catholic church is correct.

I do have one other question, why an emphasis on the spirit of Elijah? I certainly don't want that spirit and am glad it is done away with for we are baptized into a much greater spirit, the Spirit of Christ. This John did not have, in fact those baptised into John needed to be rebaptized into Christ. Why would God go backwards and work through an inferior spirit? The scripture says they will look on Him who they pierced and then they will see their folly.

Paul speaks in chapter 14 of military trumpets and their distinct sound for different aspects of the battle to come or being fought, or the battle is over in victory and the last trump is sounded for assembly of all the troops to come to the place where they can go to their homes. This last trump of God for the rapture is for all the saints dead first and living to come together for the Commander and Chief of the soldiers of Christ to take them Home to the place Jesus Christ has prepared for them, The Fathers House in the heavenly place where we are already seated with Him in spirit now. Changed in the twinkling of and eye and knowing the distinct sound of the last Trump for this dispensation of Grace by faith unto salvation of Christ being made in us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.

To this day the trump is used when raising the flag, when to get up, when to assemble, when to go into battle, when the victory is finished, when to rest and sleep, "Taps"

This is not the last trump of all time Paul speaks of, their will be many more, (example) when the tabernacle is rebuilt in the thousand year reign the trump will be sounded at feast of tabernacles. This is the last trump for the Body of Christ His Church, the battle won, for His Bride taken to His Fathers house for the finish of the wedding and the wedding feast to occur and the judgement seat of Christ. When we come back to this earth it will be in triumph with Christ at the head to set up His Kingdom and our thousand year reign with Him over the earth after the tribulation.

In Christ: Phillip

These trumpets you speak of in the millennial age are well past the time when the saints dead and living have been translated. In I Cor 15:52 Paul was speaking of the last trumpet that occurs in this present age. This trumpet sounds when Christ comes again at His second coming. This coming ends this age and is when saints living and dead are translated. The trumpets of a coming age are unrelated to the last trumpet of this age sounding at Christ's return (Matt 24:31) after the tribulation of those days (Matt 24:29). A trumpet sounding seven or three and a half years before the second coming cannot intelligently be called the last trumpet if there is still another trumpet to sound at Christ's second coming. It's profoundly easy to understand because God in His goodness and Fatherly care for His children has purposefully made it that way for us. Thanks to Him for that.

Hi Martyr,
As a former Catholic I would wouldnt even consider them a Church so I cant even then call them apostate.Im not speaking out of bitterness here.The unity the Catholic Church has is not from God and it is kept together through rituals,superstition and cohersion.
God is not working backwards even John said he baptised with water and the one to come will be with Fire.
I think that the world needs another baptism of repentance,I dont think repentance every goes out of date!
The witnesses indeed come in Sackcloth which speaks to me of "repentance and mourning"
One of the groups of people hardest hit by the arrival of the two Witnesses will be the crazy end of the Pentecostal movement most of which are Pre Trib believers.
If it was down to us we probably wouldnt have an Elijah the come before Jesus as we dont really understand why he came then.
Ok the question about why the "Spirit of Elijah"is a very good question.Let me explain.
The Spirit of Elijah is in reality the Holy Spirit working in a specific way and a unique way almost.
I say Almost because Elijah,John The Baptist and one other person in history had the "Spirit of Elijah"
Who was he?
Elisha
After taking a look at the history of Elisha,I now think that the two witnesses are Elijah and Elisha not Elijah and Moses as some think or Elijah and Enoch as some also think.

Their are a few almost obscure scriptures that lead me to that conclusion ,Why does the King repeat the "Chariots and Horsemen line" when Elisha dies and the story of the "Kids shouting insults at Elisha" is best explained in the lens of a prophesy.
urs staff

Hi Lysa,
In conclusion to this thread I'd like to point out my observsations.
Their have been objections/debate about the following:
That some people have gone into err in the past basically claiming to be Elijah
That their is too much emphasis about a man rather than Christ
The Timeline in regards to the trumpets has come up and timeline in general
Some comment was made about where it says that Elijah will come again

I answered those remarks as best as could and think except for the trumpets allayed any fears people have.

The important conclusion for me is that no one really challenged the basic teaching or Scripture attached to it.
That is that Mt Carmel is a typicological Prophesy of the Life of John the Baptist and that both Elijah and John point to the Two Witnesses in the Future; either that or their is a staggering amount of coincidence involved.(the Holy Spirit doesnt do coincidence)They may have challenged it but not scripturally.
I added and explained that the Church began with John The Baptist as proved with the last line or verse before Pentecost.This is really important to understand if you want to understand Pentecost I believe.

Again if you put Elijah,John The Baptist and The Two Witnesses in three columns and write down the similarities it cannot be coincidence.You should put Elisha in a column as well to be complete,.
I dont believe in coincidence in the bible,I think the Holy Spirit has placed every Jot and Tittle in the right place and they all count for something.
Elijah is coming again even according to "The Church Fathers" everyone admits.
What will Elijah do when he comes?Just look at what he did do in the past to find out.I think thats fair isnt it if
he is coming again in the future shouldnt I be able with the help of the Holy Spirit to study what he is going to do.
Shouldnt the Holy Spirit have the right to help me understand what the bible is saying about Elijah and the future?
Time will tell but it is important that the Church do not harden their hearts and end up working against what God is going to do because of lack of understanding.

Finally this I will say the "The Latchet of Christ's shoe Elijah,John and the Two Witnesses are not worthy to untie".These Prophets all knew that in the past and will in the future.They are their to Point to Christ,to make way for him so that our hearts will be ready not burdened with unimportant things in life but to understand and to expect that the greatest and best is about to come again soon, Jesus Christ our Lord and redeemer,
May he come soon Amen
urs staff

You brought out some good points staff and things worthy of consideration. I didn't agree with them all though but you probably didn't expect me to.

I don't think John baptizing Jesus is a type or fulfillment of Elijah pouring water on the sacrifice. Baptism was a common practice in John's day and Jesus was thus following the custom. John described Jesus as the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world so Jesus came as a Yon Kippur type of sacrifice upon which water was never poured.

Pentecost depending on there bring 12 apostles may have some bearing but I think the pouring out of the Spirit at Pentecost depended more on the fact that Jesus had then been glorified and was sitting at the right hand of the Father. Before that the Spirit had not yet been given because Jesus had not yet been glorified (John 7:39).

Saying the saints will be raptured and licked up to safety as the fire licked up the water Elijah had poured seems a bit much also. I don't see a prophetic type and fulfillment in this.

I think the timeline you basically presented still suffers because when the two witnesses are resurrected and ascend this ends the second woe leading immediately to the third woe. Its right there in black and white (Rev 11:12-15). The third woe is the 7th trumpet so there is no possible way for the two witnesses to have their ministry of 1,260 days in the first half of the tribulation. If the church were to be raptured at a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture and the scriptures plainly show that the two witnesses appear in the second half of the tribulation then the church and the two witnesses will never cross each other's path. I would look strongly again into your view that the two witnesses appear in the first half of the tribulation. As said before, if their resurrection and ascension signals the end of the second and the beginning of the third woe (the 7th trumpet) then this can't be the first half of the tribulation. The timeline the good Lord has graciously revealed to us is our friend and need not be wrestled over. If comes from His grace and Fatherly care.

I would also venture that the church cannot be raptured at the beginning or midway through the tribulation. The church is translated and glorified at the last trumpet (I Cor 25:52). A supposed pre-trib or mid-trib trumpet cannot intelligently be called the last trumpet if another final trumpet is to sound at the second coming of Christ (Matt 24:31). This Matthew 24:31 trumpet signals the gathering of saints to Christ and is the last trumpet to sound in this present age.

Thank you staff for being a digger and scratcher after the truth. I'm not near one of those who believes eschatology and its details don't matter because you know it will all pan out in the end. That is not found anywhere in the Bible. I don't think you believe that either and that's good in my opinion.I would love to sit across a table from you and we both have our Bibles open. That would be great.

Blessings from here.

Hi Docs
The way I look at it is I dont think the the bible does coincidence,
For instance John didnt want to follow the custom but Jesus forced him too,saying that he was "fullfilling"something?
John was a type of Elijah and Jesus was a Type of Sacrifice and you cant join the dots........and say that pouring water over Jesus was Elijah pouring water over the Sacrifice.

The 12 being in full compliment had more than a bearing look at the scripture below without the Chapter break between 1 and 2 and see how clearly it reads.The last thing that happend before the Spirit was poured out was ?The twelve were made whole.
Also Peter said "it is necessary"
Nessacary -needed to be done, achieved, or present; essential.

Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them

On the issue of being licked up,its a small one but when u add it to all the others it paints a picture of what is going to happen.It is interesting though that the tongue is involved in both Pentecost and Mt Carmel.
One other thing is that the only person in the bible that is involved with 3 1/2 years is Elijah.(mentioned in Daniel but doesnt effect Daniel)

I think you are stuck on the Trumpets and Woe issues which is fine but if you looked at Elijah without them present in your thinking then u would see that their isnt any conincidence that Elijah follows a pattern and the pattern stays true.
One last thing on Typology at the end of 3 1/2 years in each case a miracle regarding going up and down to heaven happens...Elijah the fire fell and licked everything up to heaven,In Pentecost the Fire fell from Heaven and in the Two witnesses they rose and were raptured and went to heaven.

Their are big problems with the witnesses going up to heaven at the end of the second half of the 7 years that you have to overcome in your logic.The world like in the Noah and Lot examples is normal when the witnesses go to heaven not after going through tribulation.The world was partying and releived about something.They had presents to give to each other,it was a time of plenty.

Ok I have looked at the woes a bitt and if you could consider this problem .Look at this timeline problem.

The two witnesses are raptured(end of 7 year period)
The second woe has passed and third is on its way.
The bible says "immediately after those days the sky would be darkened" My question is when will their be time for the the third woe to happen? If their is no gap between the end of the 7 year period and the sky darkening and also wouldnt the third woe be outside of the great tribulation? if it were after the end of second 1260 days(and exact figure not a day more or less,)
Also where is their even a gap for their bodies to lie 3 1/2 days in the street if immediately the skies are darkened.

On the Noah and Lot examples if I cant use Elijah tpyology then Jesus cant use Noah and Lot examples,I'l complain when I get there!
I am not a Pan tribulationist either for the reason that our Tribulation views effect all our other views strongly.
I think that we all Pre,Mid or Post believers have to accept that that is the case and realized we are all influenced by this fact,It might help us to be more patient and understanding and that we all love the same Jesus
Thanks Docs
urs staff

I'm not denying Elijah may come again thus fulfilling certain types. I'm just saying I don't agree with every single one you propose.

Jesus wanted John to baptize Him to "fulfill all righteousness" (Matt 3:15) and not to prove a sacrifice could still be consummed with fire even though it had water poured over it three times. Types are types for sure but it is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. Jesus was not consummed by fire and nothing says He was licked back up to heaven at His own ascension. The church is never portrayed as going to be licked up to heaven by tongues of fire.

There is nothing about the fire on Mt Carmel licking things up to heaven. It just says the fire licked up the water in the trenches.

How do the two witnesses ascend to heaven during normal times if their ascension (after vegetation struck, after seas struck, after waters struck, after heavens struck, after locusts etc.) signals the end of the second woe and the 7th trumpet (third woe) is about to sound? What half of the tribulation is this - normal peaceful times or troubled times? Its a bit baffling to me for you go see this context very clearly laid out but choose to ignore it.

I don't feel yet you have understood my point about the last trumpet and why I have emphasized it. I'm not trying to be haughty or a know it all but I'm thinking you are not used to using this very excellent chronological marker in your reasoning. The point is that the church can't go anywhere or be translated until the LAST TRUMPET occurs (I Cor 15:52). Whenever this trumpet occurs is when the dead saints will be raised and translated and receive their rewards. I see that as Matt 24:31. The timing of this trumpet in and of itself does away with any per or mid tib rapture. The graciousness of it is its simple uncomplicated clarity. The 7th trumpet of Rev 11:15 (the last trumpet of Rev) is the time when God's wrath has come and the time has come for the dead to be judged (11:18). This speaks therefore of a time of resurrection when the dead are judged and God shall reward His servants and prophets and the saints (11:18). All servants, saints and prophets and those who fear God's name will be rewarded at the time of resurrection. Pre or mid trib resurrections can be utterly ruled out by the time frame of the last trumpet. That's why I have emphasized them. The sixth trumpet has already sounded when the two witnesses are resurrected and ascend. As respectfully as I can say it, how you place this in the peaceful normal times side of the tribulation remains baffling to me.

Thank you.

Hi Docs
Which ones do you agree with and which do not?
You see you have to understand how the Jews look at Prophesy rather than the western view of prophesy ;it has mulitiple fulfillments.

I cant except that these events are not one of the same Prophetically.

Elijah,12 stones,wood laid in order,A sacrifice,A wicked King Ahab,A wicked Woman Jezebel,A miraculous event;the fire falling at the end of 3 1/2 years
AND
Elijah(John) 12 stones(Revelation),A wooden Cross,A sacriice,A wicked king Herod and A wicked woman Herodias daughter,and Fire falling after 3 1/2 years

I think id better understand ur position if I knew clearly the following.... do you think The witnesses come from the start of the 7 years to the middlie or from them middle to the end?and when do you see the wrath of God poured out in the first half or the second half or the complete 7 years?

I see the first half as peaceful and the second half as "The Great Tribulation" .
urs staff

"In this time of treading down, God has reserved to himself his faithful witnesses, who will not fail to attest the truth of his word and worship, and the excellency of his ways. Here observe,

I. The number of these witnesses: it is but a small number and yet it is sufficient.
1. It is but small. Many will own and acknowledge Christ in times of prosperity who will desert and deny him in times of persecution; one witness, when the cause is upon trial, is worth many at other times.
2. It is a sufficient number; for in the mouth of two witnesses every cause shall be established. Christ sent out his disciples two by two, to preach the gospel. Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles: it should rather seem that they are God's eminent faithful ministers, who shall not only continue to profess the Christian religion, but to preach it, in the worst of times.
II. The time of their prophesying, or bearing their testimony for Christ. A thousand two hundred and threescore days; that is (as many think), to the period of the reign of antichrist; and, if the beginning of that interval could be ascertained, this number of prophetic days, taking a day for a year, would give us a prospect when the end shall be.
III. Their habit, and posture: they prophesy in sackcloth, as those that are deeply affected with the low and distressed state of the churches and interest of Christ in the world.
IV. How they were supported and supplied during the discharge of their great and hard work: they stood before the God of the whole earth, and he gave them power to prophesy. He made them to be like Zerubbabel and Joshua, the two olive-trees and candlestick in the vision of Zechariah, ch. 4:2, etc. God gave them the oil of holy zeal, and courage, and strength, and comfort; he made them olive-trees, and their lamps of profession were kept burning by the oil of inward gracious principles, which they received from God. They had oil not only in their lamps, but in their vessels-habits of spiritual life, light, and zeal.
V. Their security and defence during the time of their prophesying: If any attempted to hurt them, fire proceeded out of their mouths, and devoured them, v. 5. Some think this alludes to Elias's calling for the fire from heaven, to consume the captains and their companies that came to seize him, 2 Ki. 1:12. God promised the prophet Jeremiah (ch. 5:14), Behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people shall be wood, and it shall devour them. By their praying and preaching, and courage in suffering, they shall gall and wound the very hearts and consciences of many of their persecutors, who shall go away self-condemned, and be even terrors to themselves; like Pashur, at the words of the prophet Jeremiah, ch. 20:4. They shall have that free access to God, and that interest in him, that, at their prayers, God will inflict plagues and judgments upon their enemies, as he did on Pharaoh, turning their rivers into blood, and restraining the dews of heaven, shutting heaven up, that no rain shall fall for many days, as he did at the prayers of Elias, 1 Ki. 17:1. God has ordained his arrows for the persecutors, and is often plaguing them while they are persecuting his people; they find it hard work to kick against the pricks.
VI. The slaying of the witnesses. To make their testimony more strong, they must seal it with their blood. Here observe,
1. The time when they should be killed: When they have finished their testimony. They are immortal, they are invulnerable, till their work be done. Some think it ought to be rendered, when they were about to finish their testimony. When they had prophesied in sackcloth the greatest part of the 1260 years, then they should feel the last effect of antichristian malice.
2. The enemy that should overcome and slay them-the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit. Antichrist, the great instrument of the devil, should make war against them, not only with the arms of subtle and sophistical learning, but chiefly with open force and violence; and God would permit his enemies to prevail against his witnesses for a time.
3. The barbarous usage of these slain witnesses; the malice of their enemies was not satiated with their blood and death, but pursued even their dead bodies.
(1.) They would not allow them a quiet grave; their bodies were cast out in the open street, the high street of Babylon, or in the high road leading to the city. This city is spiritually called Sodom for monstrous wickedness, and Egypt for idolatry and tyranny; and here Christ in his mystical body has suffered more than in any place in the world.
(2.) Their dead bodies were insulted by the inhabitants of the earth, and their death was a matter of mirth and joy to the antichristian world, v. 10. They were glad to be rid of these witnesses, who by their doctrine and example had teased, terrified, and tormented the consciences of their enemies; these spiritual weapons cut wicked men to the heart, and fill them with the greatest rage and malice against the faithful.
VII. The resurrection of these witnesses, and the consequences thereof. Observe,
1. The time of their rising again; after they had lain dead three days and a half (v. 11), a short time in comparison of that in which they had prophesied. Here may be a reference to the resurrection of Christ, who is the resurrection and the life. Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Or there may be a reference to the resurrection of Lazarus on the fourth day, when they thought it impossible. God's witnesses may be slain, but they shall rise again: not in their persons, till the general resurrection, but in their successors. God will revive his work, when it seems to be dead in the world.
2. The power by which they were raised: The spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet. God put not only life, but courage into them. God can make the dry bones to life; it is the Spirit of life from God that quickens dead souls, and shall quicken the dead bodies of his people, and his dying interest in the world.
3. The effect of their resurrection upon their enemies: Great fear fell upon them. The reviving of God's work and witnesses will strike terror into the souls of his enemies. Where there is guilt, there is fear; and a persecuting spirit, though cruel, is not a courageous, but a cowardly spirit. Herod feared John the Baptist.
VIII. The ascension of the witnesses into heaven and the consequences thereof, v. 12, 13. Observe,
1. Their ascension. By heaven we may understand either some more eminent station in the church, the kingdom of grace in this world, or a high place in the kingdom of glory above. The former seems to be the meaning: They ascended to heaven in a cloud (in a figurative, not in a literal sense) and their enemies saw them. It will be no small part of the punishment of persecutors, both in this world and at the great day, that they shall see the faithful servants of God greatly honoured and advanced. To this honour they did not attempt to ascend, till God called them, and said, Come up hither. The Lord's witnesses must wait for their advancement, both in the church and in heaven, till God calls them; they must not be weary of suffering and service, nor too hastily grasp at the reward; but stay till their Master calls them, and then they may gladly ascend to him.
2. The consequences of their ascension-a mighty shock and convulsion in the antichristian empire and the fall of a tenth part of the city. Some refer this to the beginning of the reformation from popery, when many princes and states fell off from their subjection to Rome. This great work met with great opposition; all the western world felt a great concussion, and the antichristian interest received a great blow, and lost a great deal of ground and interest,
(1.) By the sword of war, which was then drawn; and many of those who fought under the banner of antichrist were slain by it.
(2.) By the sword of the Spirit: The fear of God fell upon many. They were convinced of their errors, superstition, and idolatry; and by true repentance, and embracing the truth, they gave glory to the God of heaven. Thus, when God's work and witnesses revive, the devil's work and witnesses fall before him."

For balance, Matthew Henry's commentary on Rev 11

Hi Tmk,
I do remember when I felt led to study the subject that I read Matthew Henrys Commentary and I found it to be uninspiring about the end times and really just didnt bring anything to the table that I wouldnt just get straight away from reading the text,urs staff

// I found it to be uninspiring about the end times and really just didnt bring anything to the table that I wouldnt just get straight away from reading the text,urs staff//

What text are you talking about?

ADD: the obvious problem with a highly symbolic book like REV is knowing when to take things literally. There are clues in the two witnesses account that indicate it is not literal- I referenced one in a prior post when I asked why it would be necessary to "make war" on 2 persons.

Thanks staff. I'm working today but I'll get back to you as soon as possible. Might be tonight or tomorrow morning.

Hi Tmk
I think the powers of the two witnesses are not literal in the sense that we know fire doesnt come out of peoples mouthes except when we are saying its"the word of God".
The witness is literal in the sense their will be a witness that lasts 1260 days.Whether that witness is just Two guys or Two guys and a structure could be debated but I would say its Two guys and a structure just like Elijah with the 12 stone structure and John with the 12 Apostle structure.They are counted as dying in a specific place at a specific time so I think they are literal.
You could look at that the other way also why would the AntiChrist make war if they werent literal either,
You have to remember also that the introduction of the Two Witnesses it mentions a structure the temple of God which includes the Church ,we are just grafted in .Its the gentiles are given the Outer Court(not of God) and they thread the Holy City.I think what he is saying here is similar to the Mt Carmel episode in the sense that anything that is within the trench(measured) is of God and acceptable and anything that is unmeasured and outside is not of God,
So you maybe right that the war is bigger than just the two people and the war maybe against the two people and the structure that goes with them,
urs staff

Hi Docs
God bless ur work,
urs staff

Hi Docs
Just one other thing to add to the list

The Bullock On Mt Carmel was the "evening Sacrifice" and So was Jesus I believe,
staff

Rain rain won't go away so "Doc" is home for another day.

I don't think I want to deny everything you have said. You have made many good points in my opinion. I have heard some of it before but not in the depth you have gone into. I believe the two witnesses will be literal and I also believe in multiple fulfill.went of prophecy. I call it near/far fulfillment. There is a near fulfillment in the immediate life of the speaker of a prophecy yet many times there is a exhaustive and complete fulfillment in the eschatological future. The Bible abounds with this type of near/far fulfillment pattern. Like you I would rather approach prophecy etc. from a Hebrew perspective instead of the common western notion you find in many quarters that superior spiritual revelation in the New Testament has changed the meaning of many Old Testament prophecies. I'm all for the spiritual superiority of Christ but does that automatically mean many prophecies therefore don't really mean what they originally meant? I don't believe that.

Now, let me do a few things and get back to you in a bit.

Staff do you think 2 guys one of them literally Elijah will be walking around in sackcloth and turning rivers to blood and causing plagues etc. like in the Left Behind movie?

It's fine if you do I just want to make sure I understand your position.

But the idea of the two witnesses (a matter is confirmed by two witnesses) being symbolic of ministers professing the true gospel against the antichrist spirit across the centuries cannot be simply dismissed out of hand.

Hi Bearmaster,
Yes I think that these Prophets will not bring glory to themselves which will be a marked difference to anyone who trys to come as a false Prophet.
I think their is a difference between being unknown and unnamed.We know who they are but we dont know thier names.
Its a bit like the rapture itself why did Jesus not say on day one of the tribulation this happens and on day two this happens and on the last day of the tribulation this happens in such a clear way that their couldnt be a debate about trib or any other part of the Revelation.He didnt but Revelation is the only book that you get a blessing from reading it, doesnt it say somewhere,
urs staff

Hi Tmk,
In my previous post I confirmed that I didnt.
I did say I thought their would be two guys with a structure (literal)and that the powers were not literal (but could be dual) and they were powers with an effect.

Let me go further

Fire Proceeds:Can be only Symbolic refering to the word of God
Sackcloth: These Two guys are preaching repentance and are in mourning

Rivers into Blood:This one of the things Elijah did Literall y before but I think its not literal this time round

Plagues:This did happen literally before and the Apostles did have the power to punish physically as this word also means Strikes(as far as I remember).In the sense that the Apostles made someone blind for a season.

Power to shut up the skys:This did happen literally before with Elijah but I think this is not closing the skys to rain but closing the skys so their is no outpouring of the Spirit

Finally all of these powers are primarily not to be used against the world but are used to bring Gods people back in line with the word,
urs staff

Hi Lysa,Docs,Greg and interested

Look up Jacob Prasch The Spirit of Elijah July 12 2016 Andrew R

In this short 16 min video which I just looked at Prasch emphasises the Father family relationship and speaks about the breakdown of the family in modern society etc
It gives another perspective of Elijah coming again

Interesting he qoutes the scripture Elijah has come and WILL restore all things as a definite in the future (Not sure what bible version he is using)
So have a look and see that I am not the only one ......
I didnt post the link as I feel I would rather leave it up to urselves but I Think its a different Emphasises than me but very good all the same....
Let me know what you think,
urs staff

Hi staff,

When I have said I don't agree with every type you have proposed I am not trying to refute that two witnesses will come in the spirit and power of Elijah. I believe they certainly will come whether actually Elijah or two similar like characters. I believe they will eventually be slain and will actually lie in the literal streets of a literal Jerusalem and they will be literally resurrected. So my not quite believing all the types presented is not the same as opposing the appearance of these two witnesses. I believe they will indeed come.

Staff,

If my memory serves me correctly the scenario you presented was that the two witnesses would appear and call the church to the wilderness and this church would be raptured to a place of safety during normal times in the first half of the tribulation. In my opinion the rapture and translation of the church, saints living and dead, will take place at the last trumpet (I Cor 15:52). What other view can be taken after reading this scripture? The question then is not whether the church will be raptured but when does the all important last trumpet occur? The point is that if a pre or mid trib rapture occurs heralded by a trumpet can this trumpet legitimately be designated the last trumpet if another and final trumpet is to occur at the second coming of Christ (Matt 24:31)? So if the timing of the last trumpet mentioned anywhere is at the second coming it in and of itself rules out the possibility of a pre or mid trib rapture. There can't be a last trumpet at a pre or mid trib rapture only to followed by another last trumpet at the second coming. So scripture verifies the church will be present for the duration of the age including the tribulation. John Darby was the first person in church history to propose otherwise. This timing of the last trumpet does not nullify the appearance of the two witnesses nor diminish the divinely intended role of the church during this time. Its just that all correct views must correspond with the sequence the scriptures present.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed. ( I Cor 15:51-52)

See Matt 24:31.

Staff you asked if I believed they are to appear during the first or last part of the tribulation. Scripture gives a very clear and easy to understand answer. The answer being that when the two witnesses are resurrected and ascend the 6th trumpet has already sounded and the 7th trumpet (the third woe) is about to immediately sound (Rev 11:21-15). No stretch of the imaging action nor any amount of determined scripture wresting can place this time during the first peaceful normal times part of the tribulation. It's really not even hard to determine this if one just reads and remains true to the sequence scripture presents.

So it's not possible for the two witnesses to be active only during the first part of the tribulation. How can the 6th trumpet have already occurred when the witnesses are resurrected and ascend if they appear during the first half of the tribulation? It doesn't mean the two witnesses will not appear and fulfill their prophetic roles. It's just when will they appear and the scriptures leave no doubt. Meanwhile, the church is not going anywhere until the last trumpet occurs - see Matt 24:31. The scriptural scenario thus can be legitimately rendered: The church will be present until the last trumpet sounds at the second coming and two witnesses will come in the spirit and power of Elijah and will powerfully and effectually appear in the second half of the last three and a held years during which the church will be present also. The role of the church and the two witnesses will not be diminished by the divinely appointed time in which they have their activity.

30 and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt 24:30-31). Thus shall we ever be with the Lord.

Hi Docs

So You are saying that correct me if I am wrong that the Witnesses minister between the middle of the 7 years and the end of the 7 years? because the last trumpet is at the end of the seven years.
Is that a fair summary?
urs staff

That's a fair summary of the sequence scripture presents.

1) If the two witnesses are resurrected and ascend after the 6th trumpet has blown and the blowing of the 7th trumpet is immediately imminent how can this be the first half of the tribulation? Which side of the tribulation does the 6th and 7th trumpets occur in?

2) How can the church, living and dead, be translated until the last trumpet of this present age sounds at the second coming (I Cor 15:52 with I Thess 4:16-18 and Matt 24:31).

Thanks.

Thanks.

Hi Docs,
Memory nearly correct,I said I thought the Church would be raptured or brought to a place of safety but if pushed would think we are raptured.
I dont know much about John Darby but and I dont know whether he was right or not but Church history is just Church history its not scripture,
.
I think ur sequence doesnt explain the following
The last woe would have to be outside of the tribulation period.
Where did the people get the resources to party at the end of the tribulation?

your qoute:
This timing of the last trumpet does not nullify the appearance of the two witnesses nor diminish the divinely intended role of the church during this time

Ok so the trumpet is the sticking point with you and I have asked some pre tribbers hopefully could give an insight to this and why it isnt a sticking point with them,

If it is a case that the Church does go the Tribulation I could handle that (i wouldnt want to go through it though) I see the time of the witnesses testimony as in peace time similar to Noah and Lot and I see the first half as peaceful.(half way through the week the peace agreement/treaty is broken)
I would still like to see your exact or as close as anyone could get timeline of the 7 years,
The witnesses have 1260 days they can only be from start to middle or middle to end,one or the other ,The 7 years can either be half peaceful and half not or 7 years of wrath.
Their is a broken peace treaty for a week thats broken half way through where does that fit in with the trumpets?

thanks for ur thoughtful replys
urs staff

I'll get back to you before long bro. I'm sort of doing two or three things at once right now.

Hi Docs
One thing that has always bothered me and I have no proof one way or the other but are the "3 1/2 days" literally monday,tuesday,wednesday and half of thursday or do the represent a longer period of time,
urs staff

Hi Docs
No prob
Enjoy the weekend,
urs Hugh

Hi All,
Ive been looking at this and a question has popped up that i am wondering about
What is the the "third woe" in revelation and what are its effects and upon whom?It isnt that clear too me
thanks in advance
staff

Holy mackerel.

I'm looking around a bit staff. Meanwhile, see if you might can find any online commentary by George Eldon Ladd.

Hi Docs,
I looked him up but couldnt find a copy of the commentary online just excerpts,urs staff

All is not lost. I have a book by him on Revelation. Maybe I can post some of it later. I understand better now your question about the time frame of the third woe and how it relates to the second 1,260 days.

Verse Rev 11:14.

"John introduces the seventh trumpet as though there had been no interruption. The plagues of the last three trumpets constitute these three woes (9:12). The first two woes, which consisted of the plague of the fifth and sixth trumpets are past; the third woe - the seventh trumpet - is about to occur."

"Verse 15. When the angel sounded his trumpet, no woe immediately fell upon men. The woe involved in the seventh trumpet really consists of the seven bowls of 16:1-21. We must again be reminded of the literary parallelism in the structure of the Apocalypse. Each of the six seals (6:1-17) has a specific content; these are followed by an interlude affirming the security of God's people in the last days. The seventh seal (8:1) has of itself no specific content; instead, John describes the sounding of the seven trumpets (8:1-9:20). We have been forced to conclude that the seven trumpets themselves constituted the seventh seal. In the same way, the seventh trumpet, which is the third woe, contains no plague or woe; we must conclude that the seven bowls constitute the woe of the seventh trumpet."

"Instead of a woe or plague, loud voices in heaven announce the coming of the end. "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever." These heavenly voices announce that the time of the end has come, but the end itself is not yet described."

From "A Commentary on the Revelation of John" - by George Eldon Ladd.

Hi Docs

11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they[e] heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly

1260 days the first half of the Tribulation
1260 days the second half of the Tribulation
3 ½ days lying bodies lying in the street
Subtotal 7 Years 3 ½ days

2ND Woe past and third woe is quickly coming

The third woe comes outside the 7 year period, the 3 ½ days and so also is the earthquake and the tenth of the city falling, as well as anything that happens after the Two witnesses being killed if the two witnesses minister from mid 7 years to the end of the 7 years.

What happens immediately after the tribulation is outlined below:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken,

urs staff

There are obviously some things to figure out but if the second woe is already past how can the two witnesses be placed in the first peaceful side of the tribulation? What continually keeps you from being able to see and acknowledge that?

Ladd's view is a beginning of an explanation if the third woe is part of the bowls.

The third woe etc is followed by an announcement that the time of the end has come. We may not have a clear explanation yet but the time of the end cannot be outside of the three and a half years of the second half.

"And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them." (Rev 11:7)

"When the two witnesses have fulfilled their divinely appointed mission, the beast is allowed to make war on them and to kill them. Too much should not be made of the metaphor of war; in chapter 12, war occurs in heaven between Michael and his angels and the dragon (Satan) (12:7-8), where it is obvious that "war" means a spiritual conflict. In the present passage, war is simply conquest by whatever means, not necessary by military weapons."

(George Eldon Ladd)

Hi Docs
Ok I have Ive been looking at that on the one hand the third woe and everything after the witnesses death are outside the tribulation if they come in the second half of the trib and on the other hand the woes 1 and 2 would have to come in the first half of the trib ur before the witnesses have finished their ministry.
You see its not clear for any trib view (all have timeline problems) and for me the Noah and Lot examples that we have debated are very similar to the time of the Witnesses testimony.You see as I have said we look through a glass lit dimly and unless God lightens it up and adds inspiration to our study its just dry bones.
What keeps me from acknowledging that the witnesses come in the second half is the above Noah and lot resemblences and the timeline although it doesnt seem to fit for me on the peaceful front it doesnt fit that the witnesses come on the second half due to the timeline issue about the woes.
Also if the peace agreement is broken in the middle,their had to be peace in the first half of the agreement.But even at that I am using the broad meaning of peace in the sense that God was at peace as well not just the world.
Also if at the end of the tribulation everyone is able to party and give presents then the tribulation was much to do about nothing.
I agree though that somehow the woes,bowls,etc cant be outside of the 7 years,
urs staff

How can woes come in the first half after you have repeatedly described the first half as a time of peace? Over and over you have described it as peaceful so why do you insist on imposing second half troubles into it? How can the time of the Two Witnesses be similar to Noah and Lot if the time of the Two Witnesses is a time of immense conflict and turmoil? You're fighting against what is there in black and white.

If they are portrayed as coming in the second held it doesn't change the fact they will powerfully come in the spirit and power of Elijah.

You're also likely still toying with the idea the church will be gone when the last trumpet signalling the church's translation is at the second coming.

But I don't mind talking about it until the cows come home. If my computer wasn't down right now we could email.

Problem solved...if you will receive it!

Foy E. Wallace's Commentary on the Book of Revelation

The testimony of the two witnesses--11:3-14.

1. Power unto my two witnesses: The statement I will give in reference to my two witnesses reveals that the speaker here is Christ, the angel of verse 1, the only One who could assume such rank and authority. The assurance I will give power is based on a promise of the Lord to the apostles in Matthew 10:18-20, that when they should be arraigned "for testimony" they should "take no thought how or what" to speak; and as in Mark 13:11, "take no thought beforehand, neither do ye premeditate"; and as in Luke 12:12, "the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say." This is the power here given to the witnesses.

The two witnesses are representative of the prophets and apostles whose testimony was "this gospel of the kingdom" which should be "preached in all the world for a witness" before the end should come-- Matthew 24:14. The dual testimony is based on the requirement of the law in Deuteronomy 19:15 that "at the mouth of two witnesses shall the matter be established," and repeated by Jesus in John 8:17, "it is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true"; the allusion to which is made also in Hebrews 10:28, "he that despised Moses' law died . . . under two or three witnesses."

These are the witnesses of Matthew 23:31-37, of whom the Lord said: "Ye are the children of them which killed the prophets . . . behold I send unto you prophets . . . and some of them ye shall kill . . . crucify . . . scourge . . . and persecute . . . 0 Jerusalem . . . that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee." They are representative of those mentioned further by Stephen in Acts 7:52, "which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?' By the prophets of the old dispensation and the apostles of the new covenant, the testimony, divine revelation, was completed and by "the two witnesses" thereby established.

2. Prophesy . . . clothed in sackcloth: The word sackcloth was of Hebrew origin and was interfused into every language as a symbol of ill-fortune. It was the suit of mourning in death, the garb of humility and penitence under judgment, and the clothing of suffering in calamities and persecutions-as so mentioned in Job 16:15; Psalms 30:11; Jeremiah 4:8; Isaiah 29:2; and Zechariah 13:4.

The speaker in this vision told John that his two witnesses should prophesy clothed in sackcloth, as a sign of great affliction and as a token of the extreme suffering that their testimony should cause to come upon them, portraying retrospectively the altar scenes of chapter 6:9-11, and prospectively all of the tribulations yet to be unfolded, of which the two witnesses were representatives.

3. A thousand two hundred three-score: The forty-two months equal twelve hundred sixty days, computed mathematically (42 x 30 ==1260), which is in the text declared to be "a thousand two hundred and three score days." The reader is requested to turn back to the comments on verse 2 and compare again the parallel between Isaiah 7:1-25 : l-9 and the forty-two months of Revelation for an example of exact mathematical application.

It designated the period of time for the Gentiles to tread Jerusalem, the holy city, under foot, which was accomplished and fulfilled in the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans. It is also the appointed time for the two witnesses "clothed in sackcloth" to prophesy, in the appropriate garb of the prophets during the time of these woes. That is what the angel told John these representative witnesses should do, and it agrees with what the Lord also said should be done in the parallel passages previously cited in Matthew 24:14; Mark 13:10; Luke 21:12-15-24. It is evident that the period of the treading down of Jerusalem was the time of the testimony of the witnesses also.

Hi Docs
Thats the delemma isnt it,ur timeline is outside the 7years and mine is not peaceful as regards Gods Wrath.,
The Church going through the Trib is not a problem for me but I dont think it will be going through it but if it were its not a problem.
What im saying is that we look through a glass dimly and as I have said to Greg although God opens up scripture to us it still doesnt make everything clear.
Another scripture I cant get away from is Noah and Lot.
Jesus went out of his way to show that things were going on as normal and twice says "until the day" then all heaven broke loose.
No it doesnt change the fact of Elijah fair enough but I will now get back to study the woes etc
End times is never black n white lol
urs staff

Lot is not really that good of a example of being taken out of the world before wrath. He was not taken out of the world but directed to other cities on the plain where there was safety.

Why do you seem to avoid putting up I Cor 15:52 and comparing it to Matt 24:31?

The third woe etc is not outside the time of the tribulation. The 7th trumpet sounds and the angel announces the time of the end has arrived. It doesn't say it has already occurred.

Hi Docs

Lot was taken out though by Angels and it was safe and not under wrath.Also the city couldnt be judged until he was taken out.Similarly The World couldnt be judged until Noah was safe.

Off the top of my head wasnt the Angels bringing him out of the valley but he wanted to go to one of the cities himself.

Im not avoiding 1 Cor 15:52 as I said the trumpets are well argued by both sides and one says one thing and another says another.
Also I could say what about the timeline ,How is the third woe outside the 7 years?I know you dont have answer yet.
You havent aroused by interest on the Trumpets but the woes I find interesting!lol
urs staff

The third woe signals the time of the end has come so it can't be outside of the seven years. And Christ hasn't come yet. When He comes it will be accompanied by the LAST TRUMPET recorded in this present age.

Do you believe tribulation believers (Rev 7:14) will be part of the church?

Hi Docs
But how can it be inside the seven years if the two witnesses are witnessing from 1260 day to 2520 days?plus at least 3 1/2 days and the woe happens after that.
I think they are not part of the Church as the Church has left or taken .These people I think are result of the preaching of the Church and the viewing of the rapture,
urs staff

If this church is to be gone what in your opinion will signal its translation and glorification?

We have probably about run our course on this staff. When my computer is back up maybe we can email a bit if you like.

Its worth remembering that if the witness appear in the first half that is 1,260 days that they will prophesy plus three and a half days then that equals 1,260 days plus three and a half more. So your scenario has been wrong from the beginning also. And if the second woe and the 6th trumpet have already occurred when the witnesses are resurrected then it's impossible for them to have appeared in the first peaceful half.

It's a LARGE error in my opinion to divide the spiritual sons of Abraham and say those saved before a rapture are part of the church and those saved and washed in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 7:14) after a supposed rapture are not. Like I have said, the pre-trib view itself has become married because of what it incorrectly proclaims but also because of the accompanying beliefs that have grown up around it and accompany it. You said you don't know much about John Darby but you ought yo find out on my opinion. No church theologian, scholar, teacher or common saint in church history proclaimed what he was the first ever to advocate beginning in the 1830s. And Jacob Prasch doesn't teach pre-tribe or the division of the spiritual sons of Abraham who have embraced the Messiah through faith. By maintaining this division the very nature and make up of the body of Christ is called into being.

I understand now you are pre-trib and dispensational believing in two different peoples of God, one before a supposed rapture and another completely different people after a rapture even though both are saved by faith. John Darby opened a Pandora's box of error proposing these things. If he was reintroducing long lost truth I would hate to see things if he had been out to introduce error! But error he surely introduced. It helps also explain your reluctance to consider the timing of the last trumpet as being a vital key to when the church will be translated. The timing of this all important trumpet stands in the way of Darby's theories which you adhere to while Jacob Prasch does not.

Thank you for your conversation though and when my PC is back up maybe we can continue.

Blessings.

There is undeniable proof that the ‘rapture’ in Matthew 24:29-31 is also the 6th Seal, in Revelation 6:12, because the signs perfectly match and the multitude is in heaven in Rev 7. The rapture is ‘pre-tribulation’ because Seals 1-5 are in the past; http://daniel11truth.com/the-seals-explain-pre-tribulation-rapture.htm, so there’s nothing left in Revelation that needs to happen before the rapture. The rapture, in Matthew 24:29-31, must happen right after the abomination (v. 15) because the two groups of ‘elect’, namely the Jews going through part of the tribulation and the Christians being gathered to heaven, must match the same two groups in Revelation 7. God’s wrath (tribulation) starts in Revelation 8. (There’s a simple but comprehensive explanation of ‘pre-tribulation’ here: "Proof of Rapture.”) After the Rapture (tribulation) The first 42 months (1260 days) of tribulation will include the Trumpet plagues (Rev 8-11), the two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem (Rev 11), and the rise of the antichrist (Rev 13) in the Middle East. During that period, the antichrist will lead a huge army to defeat their opponents in the South, as noted in Daniel 11:40-43. Near the end of that time, the antichrist will also invade Israel, killing the two witnesses, who will lay in the street for 3.5 days, then arise and ascend to heaven, marking the end of the Seven Trumpets. Before the Bowl plagues start, the false prophet will enter the scene and perform many miracles (Rev 13), which will fool everyone (2 Thess 2: 9-12) into receiving the ‘mark of the beast’, except of course the 144,000 elect (Matt 24:24). At the 1335-day mark (Dan. 12:12), the 144,000 will be martyred (Rev 14) for not receiving the ‘mark of the beast’. Note: Those 144,000 Jews are the same ones who become priests during the 1000-years (Rev 20:4-6). In other words, contrary to popular belief, there’s no evidence of any gentile getting a 2nd chance because why would a gentile who missed the rapture become a priest? Just saying. After the martyrdom, the Bowl plagues will start (Rev 16), which will be far worse than the Trumpets, and they will last about 3-years, which will complete the 2300-days. The 7th Bowl is Armageddon, when Jesus will return to earth, along with the raptured Christians, all riding on white horses. (Rev 19) Jesus will defeat the army of the beast, led by the antichrist and false prophet, and establish His rule on earth for 1000-years.

From: http://daniel11truth.com/ I have been studding this site since 2014 and with the scriptures in Matt, Revelations, Daniel 11, 1 Thess and other scriptures, have come to the conclusion by slowly getting the scriptures to come together without any manipulation as to the timeline to end times truth, that the above is the closest I can get for now to make sense of all pros and cons and many areas of end time conclusions which do what God says in Rev 22 not to do. "Don't add to or take away from the writings in this book".

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Docs,
Hi Docs Ive been unavailable for the last few days so sorry for not replying.
Thanks for the cordial and interesting discussion.
I just believe that whoever enters heaven are spirit filled,Jew,Gentile or before or after Rapture.I do believe that any Jews that are Spirit filled will be raptured or taken to safety ,whatever with the everybody else.
I dont know anything much about Darby to be honest.
I asked Greg earlier about fresh inspiration once its in line with the word.I believe you can and I strongly believe the end times Christians will know more about the end than the Christian at the beginning. Although I cant reconcile fully the Elijahs coming in the first half and you cant reconcile the third woe being outside the 7 years it doesnt mean either are wrong .
Thanks staff

I still don't think you have gotten my point yet. If a Spirit filled Jew or Gentile is raptured to heaven this is when they are translated and glorified. I've asked again and again to no avail when Paul said this would happen (I Cor 15:52). Thanks for the conversation though.

/There's nothing in Revelation that must happen before the rapture./

Paul said that day and our gathering to Him would not occur until the man of sin is revealed. II These 2:1-10. Has the man of sin been revealed yet?

The events of Matt 24:29-31 describe the second coming of Christ at the end of the age and occur "AFTER the tribulation" of those days (verse 29). It's amazing in my opinion how much ignoring of plain context and scripture wresting the pre-tribes view had to resort to.

Quote: """Paul said that day and our gathering to Him would not occur until the man of sin is revealed. II These 2:1-10. Has the man of sin been revealed yet?"""

That is in--is in Daniel 11, The abomination, which Christ said to look for as the closeness of the Rapture, which will occur at the same time or shortly after the abomination revealed, which is before the trumpets and bowls occur, which is in the 7th seal, which is after the rapture and the bride clothed in white is already in heaven attending the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Revelation 8:1-3 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Where are all the saints? Is this not the seventh seal? Then the sixth seal is the rapture with all the same signs as in Mathew Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Revelation which read the same event: Revelation 6:13-14 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

/There's nothing in Revelation that must happen before the rapture/ """nothing in Revelation""" 2nd Thes 2: 1-10 is not in revelation.

In Christ: Phillip

Then if the abomination must occur before the rapture then there is something revealed in Revelation that must occur before a rapture. Its been my experience that the pre-trib view is built around such exegetical jumps in logic. You say nothing in Rev remains in the way of the rapture occurring but then say the abomination must occur before the rapture occurs shortly thereafter.

To say no Gentiles will be saved during the tribulation is highly sectarian in my opinion and shuts up the door of salvation to someone just because they missed a supposed rapture. My Bible says all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved and when one is saved they become a priest before God. No view but the pre-trib denies this.

Thanks.

Quote: """Then if the abomination must occur before the rapture then there is something revealed in Revelation that must occur before a rapture."""

Please show me where in revelation the, "revealed in Revelation" is. I guess I am not being clear, There is nothing more written or to be revealed in revelation after the sixth seal before the Rapture. The seventh seal is past the rapture which has already occurred.

The abomination is separate and revealed in Daniel 11.
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This is not revealed in revelation anywhere but Jesus said we should understand the rapture is close by His statement of Matt 24:15. For in 14 more verses He reveals the rapture and confirms what Paul said in 1Thess 4 with John in the 6th seal by the same signs in the sun, moon and stars etc.
More confirmation in 1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. We know this last trump is the end of the dispensation of Grace, not the 7th trump because the bowls are still coming, which takes aprox 3 years, then the Lord Jesus comes to earth to set up His Kingdom.

You keep trying to twist my words that the statement is wrong so you can confirm your take on when the rapture will occur and salvation can be gained through the whole of the seven years of tribulation. If I am wrong I pray God shows me but if I am wright People cannot wait until after the rapture to come to the Lord. I don't want to see any not make it because they were waiting for proof because then it will be to late.

In Christ: Phillip

If Revelation portrays the rise of AC and the length of his short but fierce rule and then shows his demise it's natural to assume the abomination is somewhere within this period of time. The day of God Almighty spoken of in Rev 16:14 is the same Day of the Lord spoken of in II Thess 2:1. Then Paul says in II These 2:3 that this day will not come until the man of sin is revealed and he performs the AOD. So because the man of sin has not been revealed, a pre-trib rapture cannot be IMMINENT without anything else to be fulfilled before it supposedly happens. The revealing of the man of sin must occur first.

19 I will show wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath: blood and fire and vapor of smoke.

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

21 And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Acts 2:19-21)

Having the door of grace slammed shut at a pre-trib rapture does spite to the Spirit of grace Himself in my opinion. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord before or during the tribulation will be saved. You have a last trumpet slamming this door shut and another last trumpet occurring at Christ's second coming. Until Darby Matt 24:14 was never interpreted as describing a pre-trib rapture. And you have a resurrection of the dead at a pre-trib rapture and another resurrection of the dead at the second coming which in pre-trib is a second coming after a earlier second coming. It just doesn't work for me and is not supported scripturally. I'll end here because I have to go to church and I appreciate the conversation but I will probably end my discussion here.

Thank you.