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Please don't get mad at me for this-

J
JFW

This is an honest question regarding a touchy subject these days...

Firstly it's important to note I believe the scriptures to be inerrant and without exception truthful with no willful intent to deceive or mislead the reader regarding the truth of both Gods will and character as well as the recorded events therein.

So with that said, it was recently brought to my attention that either I had a great discrepancy in my understanding of the cosmos or Gods miracle recorded in Joshua 10 is a WAY bigger deal than previously thought.

If the cosmos is as modern science says then the events recorded and witnessed (even siting other sources) technically couldn't have happened the way they're recorded in scripture. However if the model modern science purposes is wrong then it is clearly possible.

So my question is, did the sun "stand still" (meaning it revolves around the earth) or did the earth stop spinning at 1100mph or so and actually reverse course along with the moon for the space of about a day as recorded?

I'm not proposing the earth is flat, but either science is wrong or a recorded and witnessed biblical event is different than what it appears-

I've checked the Hebrew text as well as rereading Genesis creation account and it seems to quite clearly state the earth was created first (before sun and moon) and seems to produce a "geocentric" (earth being the center) model whereas science says the opposite in that it reports a "heliocentric" (sun centered) model.

Has anyone else noticed or been confronted by this discrepancy?

I'll be the first to say, I'm more likely to believe that science got it wrong than to say Holy Spirit was complicit in misleading the reader....

Again please don't be mad at me for bringing this up as this is an honest inquiry and I'm hoping others have some research into this as it's not something I'd noticed before.

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docs

That's a good question bro. I sense your sincerity and honesty. Wish I knew the answer.

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TakeUptheCross

Well honestly, I've thought about it but could not solve the mystery either.

About Genesis: I find it fascinating that God created the Earth before the sun, and that Light was created before the sun and moon and the stars! So it makes me thing... what is light?! And what was that light?

I cannot answer these questions but I find it really amazing. And the record of God is true... we just don't understand how it happened, probably we do not have the devices or the theories and formulas yet that could help understand how it happened.

As for Joshua: I don't know that either :D but I do believe that it happened so.

Perhaps one day we will know...

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Martyr

Well we know the sun doesn't move. Guys the people that wrote the Old Testament were not supermen. Joshua did not know how the universe worked so when he saw that event and recorded it he did so according to his knowledge. He was wrong. It does not hurt the fact that the Old Testament is inspired by God to think so. It does not deny the miracle at all. It simply shows that God works through men according to the vessel he's working through.

Polycarp used the "Pheonix" as a real example of nature foreshadowing Christ's death and resurrection. It's not a real bird.

The Holy Spirit does not make one infallible like modern evangelical Christianity demands. NOTHING in this world is perfect, it's just the nature of this universe. Even the law (which is spiritual) when brought into this world took on the nature of death. The old testament has life but it is not in the letter it is in the Spirit. The law was given by Moses but Grace and truth came from Christ. The words he spoke are spirit and life, they are not infallible in the letter (the mustard seed is not the smallest seed) but in the Spirit. Hence "he who has ears to hear let them hear"

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Sree


About Genesis: I find it fascinating that God created the Earth before the sun, and that Light was created before the sun and moon and the stars! So it makes me thing... what is light?! And what was that light?

I think the order of creation is perfect. Light as an entity has to be created even before a source of light is created. For example Man had to be created even before women who gives birth to man was created. This is my understanding. Science agrees with this as well. Light particles have to exist first.

I do not agree that earth being created first supports an earth centric system. God created earth as an entity and then placed it in the axsis of Sun after the Sun was created.
In fact Big bang theory agrees with Genesis that universe did not exist infinitely. There was a point of existence of universe. Earlier science used to believe that universe was eternal but Big bang theory disagrees.

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davidkeel

Just borrowed this from the Creation Research website. :

When God created "light" in verse 3, the word used connotes the presence of light only, while the word used for "lights" on Day Four is best translated "light bearers," or permanent light sources. Their purpose was not only to give light, but to serve as timekeepers for man once he was created. According to the best stellar creation theory now available, light from stars created anywhere in the universe on Day Four would reach earth in two earth days, and would be useful to Adam on Day Six.

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TMK

I believe the miracle recorded in Joshua really happened. He described what he thought he saw. God could have kept it light while the battle was being waged. Do I think the earth suddenly stopped on its axis? I am not saying it's 100% impossible- God could have dealt with all the other ramifications of this (essentially the destruction of the entire earth) but I think it just appeared to Joshua that the sun didn't move.

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TMK

The Hebrew text regarding the 4th creation day does not demand that the stars were created on Day 4.

Verse 16 can and probably should be translated "had made."

There is no need to come up with some other light source. The stars were there when the earth was created.

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RogerB

We live in a world of confusion. There's so much division over creation and what God says. If the earth is flat and has a dome, then you can have a world wide flood, and that also says there is a creator and you didn't evolve. Plus, you are then not an insignificant blob in a world of endless planets, stars etc. Then the Sun is not your greatest attraction, God would be.

On the other hand if we live in a globe, a world wide flood is impossible and if we are traveling through space at x miles per hour and as we spin we are just insignificant blobs. Evolution then can become a possibility because there are no absolutes. Science describes it as a matrix. As Bill Nye showed with his demonstration of the boat going on over the hill on the ocean completely out of sight, he said it was following the curve. He forgot that the water should have gone on over the hill as well. Water rolls off mountains into the ocean but when it reaches the ocean it doesn't go down that slope. Amazing! School is teaching our children evolution and a God less society.

I noticed the eyebrows raised when Mr Trump signed papers saying he wanted NASA to return to the moon during his term in office.

It's OK for you and me to be confused, There is an author of confusion. On a flat earth the sun could stand still and even go backward.

God won't condemn you for not knowing either way. he stands in amazement when people believe what he says.

The question of space vacuum has never been answered. Why does the vacuum not suck away the air around the earth?

I believe what God wrote about the sun standing still is true, even going backward.

Yes I am a flat earther, but I don't condemn you if you believe otherwise.

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sermonindex

I think the earth is square...

Just kidding...

I have also things in my mind I want an answer, but those will be answer in God's right time...

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Martyr

We live in a world of confusion. There's so much division over creation and what God says. If the earth is flat and has a dome, then you can have a world wide flood, and that also says there is a creator and you didn't evolve. Plus, you are then not an insignificant blob in a world of endless planets, stars etc. Then the Sun is not your greatest attraction, God would be.

On the other hand if we live in a globe, a world wide flood is impossible and if we are traveling through space at x miles per hour and as we spin we are just insignificant blobs. Evolution then can become a possibility because there are no absolutes. Science describes it as a matrix. As Bill Nye showed with his demonstration of the boat going on over the hill on the ocean completely out of sight, he said it was following the curve. He forgot that the water should have gone on over the hill as well. Water rolls off mountains into the ocean but when it reaches the ocean it doesn't go down that slope. Amazing! School is teaching our children evolution and a God less society.

I noticed the eyebrows raised when Mr Trump signed papers saying he wanted NASA to return to the moon during his term in office.

It's OK for you and me to be confused, There is an author of confusion. On a flat earth the sun could stand still and even go backward.

God won't condemn you for not knowing either way. he stands in amazement when people believe what he says.

The question of space vacuum has never been answered. Why does the vacuum not suck away the air around the earth?

I believe what God wrote about the sun standing still is true, even going backward.

Yes I am a flat earther, but I don't condemn you if you believe otherwise.

Biblical literalism at its finest people. A complete avoidance of reality to support a book they were told is 100% correct about everything. The bible is spiritually inerrant. It was written thousands of years ago why on earth would you take science lessons from them??

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TMK

Roger with all due respect we do not live in a "snow globe." Your insistence on promoting your flat earth ridiculousnesss is embarrassing.

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JFW

After pondering my OP and trying to wrap my head around the event in question, it occurred to me that not only would the earth have to stop spinning on its axis but also cease its rotational orbit as well as the moon following suit... as if everything stopped, or slowed to such a pace so as to "appear" to stop. In my (limited) understanding of astrophysics, geothermal, hydrothermal sciences and tectonics, it would be utterly catastrophic for the above to occur. Not that God couldn't pull it off but..... that's a mighty big response to Joshua's (command?) word, ha!
But it does say in vs 14 that, there'd never been a day like it before or after:)

I've gotta lot of research to do,... this is stuck in my craw-

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Martyr

Jfw, time and light are linked. It may mean nothing (I haven't looked into it) but perhaps the method God used is linked to that and had nothing to do with rotation. Just a thought, we may never know fully. I Wouldn't spend too much time on it personally but if you find anyrhing do share!

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TMK

Just an aside-- apparently the original Hebrew text dies not demand that it was light for 24 hrs- it could also be read to say it was dark 24 hrs.

That doesn't make the problem go away but I thought it was interesting.
---------------
"Joshua 10 is a bit ambiguous about the nature of the "long day.” It is possible to interpret the event as an extra-long night rather than an extra-long day. In fact, most Old Testament scholars assert that the extra-long night is the most likely interpretation. Furthermore, the original Hebrew text does not require any adjustment in the positions or movements of the Sun, Moon, or Earth.

What the text demands is God bringing an extra period of light or darkness into the Valley of Aijalon. God could have brought about such effects through a supernatural meteorological event that blanketed the region with heavy darkness or refracted or reflected extra light into the desired location. Alternately, God could have shone his Shekinah glory into the Valley of Aijalon or used His "hand” to block out the Sun and Moon’s light.

Isaiah and the chroniclers describe a more outstanding miraculous event in Isaiah 38”“39, 2 Kings 20, and 2 Chronicles 32. After the miraculous defeat of the Assyrian army, Judah’s King Hezekiah became deathly ill. The Lord healed him and gave him a sign to confirm his healing””moving the shadow of Hezekiah’s sundial back by 40 minutes.

This backward movement of sundial shadows was also witnessed in Babylon. Interestingly, the Babylonians recognized their god Marduk could not perform such a miracle. Therefore, they sent a delegation to Jerusalem to find out from the real God the reason for the event.

The miraculous movement of the sundial shadows could have occurred over the entire region extending from Jerusalem to Babylon or it may have been limited to just the cities of Jerusalem and Babylon. God could have manipulated meteorological conditions at the same time in both Babylon and Jerusalem. It is hard to imagine, however, God manipulating meteorological conditions so that sundials over the entire region between Jerusalem and Babylon would have their shadows shifted by 40 minutes without bringing about far more disturbing meteorological consequences. Alternatively, God could have temporarily shone some kind of transcendent light, like His Shekinah glory, into the cities of Jerusalem and Babylon or even upon the entire region between Jerusalem and Babylon."~~Dr. Hugh Ross

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proudpapa

The God of the Bible is not bound by the laws of the natural , He is Supernatural !

The Bible is a Book that testifies of the miraculous.

I do not need to have a Scientific explanation for how Peter Walked on Water, It was beyound the natural it was Supernatural.

I do not need to have a Scientific explanation for how the waters of the red sea parted or how Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and it turned into a snake.

Or how a grown man is swallowed by a fish/wale and survives in its belly for 3 days.

Or how a man can have super human strength as did Samson.

or how Jesus turned the water to wine or the Feeding the multitude

etc. etc. etc.

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TMK

PP-

Bottom line I agree with you. God could have stopped all motion in the universe without any ill effects had he wanted to do so.

We certainly don't need to turn to a flat earth theory to explain the miracle.

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proudpapa

RE : /// Well we know the sun doesn't move. Guys the people that wrote the Old Testament were not supermen. Joshua did not know how the universe worked so when he saw that event and recorded it he did so according to his knowledge. He was wrong.///

The sun does move.

and

Technically, Earth Does Not Orbit Around the Sun

http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/08/technically_the_earth_does_not_orbit_the_sun.html

M
Martyr

Your splitting hairs, you known what is meant

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JFW

Ok I really need to slowly reread the scriptures....
2 Kings 20:9-11
9 ¶ And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?
10 ¶ And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.
11 ¶ And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

Also I noticed in Genesis it says God placed the sun, moon etc... "in" the firmament...

This is more interesting than I'd imagined-

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RogerB

Concerning the sun, ever see a flashlight with a round ball shaped end and what kind of reflection can a round shaped ball do as a moon? The Navy has laser guns that can shoot around 100 miles. How do they go through the water with that laser since the target would be under water a couple thousand feet at that distance?

Imagine flying a jet plane at 2000 mph and trying to maintain a level flight. There was a gentleman that went up in a special balloon years ago. he said the earth was concave.

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TMK

Fletcher- Gods glory could outshine the sun so as to move the sundial backwards. It's all a matter of angles. The phenomenon was not limited to Israel because I believe the Persians also noted same.

Fletcher you seem to be possibly questioning that the earth is in fact a sphere but I can't tell. Are you? If you are, whatever you do stay away from the wacko internet flat earth sites.

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RogerB

I guess we must prepare to burn our Bibles as there's a lot of other things in there that would seem just as impossible. It's said Moses wrote Genesis and he spoke directly with God, seen besides Jesus in the transfiguration and apparently is coming as one of the witnesses to take care of the big Pharaoh, the one who won't let the people go...

Just Don't hate me.

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TMK

Roger- saying the earth is flat has no bearing whatsoever in a belief that God can and does work miracles. One has nothing to do with the other.

Please don't mistake insisting on truth for hate. My refusal to give any ground regarding this flat earth nonsense has nothing to do with you personally. Unfortunately you have been swayed by strange people, and that is regrettable.

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JFW

Ha! I'm not suggesting anything,... just reading these passages as I do all the others and (in my experience) when the scriptures speak metaphorically or in parables they are clear on that point. These passages as well as the creation account reads as tho it is to be taken literally, no?
I understand your points about Gods glory, but that isn't what it says happened so I'm simply trying to be honest in searching a thing out:)

To me it seems it would've been a small thing for Jesus or any other prominent biblical figure to simply correct mans misunderstanding of the workings of the cosmos and more specifically our solar system, but Holy Spirit didn't direct that and from my understanding at this point seems to do quite the opposite, which is to perpetually confirm the other as I've found several passages of scripture stating the sun "moves" (very specific in psalms 19:6) and not only not one mention of the earths rotational "movement" but to the contrary states it doesn't move or is immovable....

Again I'm not stating anything regarding the earth being flat, however the Bible seems to be ver matter of fact regarding a "geocentric" arrangement and I find that fascinating. Still researching and am open to interpretations and options to reconcile this- tho it is interesting that the same scientists who say it's heliocentric also tell me I evolved from apes and that gender is a social construct 😳.... that doesn't mean they're wrong on the heliocentric idea but it sure doesn't help my ability to take their word on blind faith. I mean I've never travelled into space and observed it first hand and I personally don't know anyone who has...

You're an attorney right?
Why would you think that God, knowing the end from the beginning, would not only never correct mans understanding but seemingly testifies to the contrary without exception?
I honestly cannot think of another biblical case where this is the case so it interests me as it is quite the anomalous account-

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TMK

Hi Fletcher-

Thanks for your reply.

I think much depends on how we view certain portions of scripture.

David, being a poet, wrote poems that described what he observed. Obviously a person on the earth sees the sun moving. If that same person was able to stand on the sun he would see the earth moving.

One must decide whether David's statement about the sun can be taken as a personal observation, or whether (because it's in the Bible) it must be regarded as absolute scientific fact. Personally, I have no problem whatsoever, not even in the very least, that the Bible is inspired despite some scientifically incorrect statements in scripture.

Isaac thought that if goats mated in front of notched sticks they would have speckled offspring. Just because this is a load of nonsense does not mean that the Bible is not inspired.

As to Jesus not clarifying cosmology, that was so far removed from his mission it isn't even funny.

But I have every confidence that someday he'll tell me that Hugh Ross was right- but of course that is just me.

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sermonindex

Great thread dear Fletcher! Love your courage and humility in posting!

I've been researching the flat, stationary earth for about a year and a half now. Geocentrism as well. Even the firmament ("dome").

During that time, I have spent hours and hours re-reading the Bible, praying, and talking with the saints.

It has gotten me interested in science like nothing ever before in my life, to date.

I've learned more about cosmology than I ever dreamed I would, and I'm only scratching the surface I'm sure.

It's truly been a life-giving learning experience, personally.

It has been said, "truth fears no investigation".

I see it as healthy to question things.

Fletcher, those passages you mentioned, (among others) have absolutely fascinated me during these studies! For whatever reason, til these past couple of years, it never dawned on my how big of a deal it is that there was light BEFORE the sun, moon and stars were created on day four.

Not to mention the sun, moon and stars being "IN" the firmament! Utterly awesome!

Recently, I had a wild thought. You know that passage in Revelation that talks about the glory of God "giving light", so much so that the sun and moon are not needed?

"And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb." - Revelation 21:23

My thought was, what if that's the same light (God's glory) that shone BEFORE the sun, moon and stars were created on day 4?

He is the same yesterday, today and forever! Hallelujah!

All that to say, I am encouraged by your creating this thread JFW!

Study on brother, study on!

Love you all!

M
Martyr

Some of you seem conflicted on how the old testament speaks of things against current cosmology and yet is inspired. I ask, have you ever spoken by the Holy Spirit before? If so, did you instantly know everything about everything including the very workings of the universe and it's arrangement? The answer is no, you didn't. Moses did not know the pythagorean theorem, David had no idea what an atom was and Jeremiah did not know general relativity. These are very ancient documents. The men that wrote them existed a very long time ago, they did not know what we did. They spoke from the Spirit in the time they were and according to the knowledge they had. Some of it was incorrect factually, that's what happens when God decides to speak through a 10th century BC Shepherd boy. He wasn't a genius. God did not speak to Him as a 21st century american, he spoke to him as a 10th century shepherd boy. Why are people hinging so much upon them to even deny modern scientific facts that have been demonstrated time again in practice?

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proudpapa

Tyler,

Do you believe the Genesis account of creation or do you believe the modern science theory of billions of years and that man is evolved pond scum ?

M
Martyr

I believe the Genesis account, why do you ask? Proudpapa if this is about my view of the scriptures I would appreciate it if you actually responded to the points I made and not try to find something you can accuse me with. When men can't argue they accuse and it's really getting old.

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TMK

PP-

I believe in a billions of years old universe but I do not believe in evolution- at all.

There is no reason to fear a billions of years old universe. That does not equate to evolution being true.

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proudpapa

Tyler,

RE : ///I believe the Genesis account, why do you ask?///

That is one area that we can agree that modern scientist are confident that they are correct and we as Christians can agree that they are clearly wrong.

They are wrong about the origins of life and creation, because they refuse to think outside the box.
They are stuck in a paradigm that they created with there own imaginations.

Do you suppose in other aspects of science such as the study of the cosmos, that it could be possible that they might also be wrong because they refuse to think outside the box that they have enclosed around themselves.

I am not defending a flat earth I do not know enough about the subject to have an opinion but I am finding it interesting from what fletcher has brought forward that the Bible seems to speak of a geocentric view.

I do not have a strong opinion (never gave it much thought) but I do trust the Bible and I do not trust the Scientific community.

clarity

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proudpapa

TMK,

Do you believe the Gap Theory ?

I have considered it in the past but do not have a strong opinion one way or the other on the subject

J
JFW

Brothers,

Yes I get what each of you are saying and am taking each perspective into careful consideration. Having said that each of you have helped wether it was a word of encouragement or a funny reference or a sensible word of caution and I'm honestly grateful for the feedback and the mercy you've all shown as I was reluctant to bring this topic to SI but you all have contributed out of the storehouse of your hearts and that in itself is a blessing:)

I guess the reason this has really garnered my attention is the sheer gravity (pun intended;) of the recorded occurrence in a helio model.... I mean next to creation itself or the end and new beginning, this is by far the grandest and most complex of miracles and all because Joshua said so? The other acts of this magnitude by God have a far broader and more enduring effect than just to kill some people. Yes there are lessons of faith and Gods faithfulness to His peoples, etc... but I could think of at least a hundred other ways, far far easier (with the same results) than this under a heliocentric model and yet here it is, for this is what the scriptures record. So when I looked into the matter I found that the geocentric model was clearly perpetuated throughout scripture without exception.... so that seems like a big deal to me,... I mean this isn't parting a sea, or a donkey speaking with a mans voice, or even resurrection! This is almost incomprehensibly huge in action and implication (again) under a helio model- while in a geo model it fits quite neatly and proportionately. So I am willing to consider that perhaps we, in our zeal to gain understanding of the cosmos made the leap from theory to "reality" without due diligence. Setting out with a pre-perscribed notion (totally divorced from the biblical account and sometimes openly hostile to it) we sought to make it fit...
Perhaps I'm looking at it wrong but so far I can't find another view that allows for intellectual honesty and (for me) that's a very important thing.

T
TMK

PP-

No I am not an avid proponent of the gap theory although it is an interesting idea that could explain much of what we observe. It could be true. I believe Scofield believed in this.

In regard to geocentric v heliocentric, I just think biblical writers wrote what they observed from their perspective. Can't blame them because there was no other perspective until Copernicus.

Fletcher I still can't determine if you think the sun and planets orbit the earth, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. What about the thousands of other star systems we have discovered where the planets orbit a sun? The earth is a tiny speck in a universe filled with other solar systems.

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JFW

I'm not saying I "believe" anything in particular about this other than there is a glaring discrepancy and my intention is to search out and (hopefully) reconcile it:)

Brother I have on many occasions been blessed by your thoughtful insights as well as your wit and humor as they find compliment with my own, tho (in this case) the course of reasoning you follow is not compatible with my sensibility for the aforementioned reasons of Holy Spirit being complicit.... (for me) if we use a "they had a primitive perspective and did the best they could" type of reasoning then the selfsame could be used to completely dismantle the whole testimony of scripture quite easily because that position excludes or at the very least minimizes the role of Holy Spirit in the formation of the texts (all scripture is God breathed) and while obviously not everything recorded in scripture is "from God" i.e.; Job's accusers, it is nonetheless included for a purpose, often for instruction as an example wether to the positive or the negative. This tho seems quite different for me and if your sensibility is satisfied with your understanding then praise God:) tho I must be honest in saying mine as yet is not and yet I'm not attempting to convince anyone of anything, again simply posing the questions my mind is wrestling with in hopes of gaining from the perspective of other saints:)

To (what seems to be) your concern, I currently do not hold to a geocentric view,... having said that I have in a short period come across some rather disturbing "coincidences" regarding the heliocentric models emergence and subsequent development.
FTR - I don't believe in coincidence,... for me it's just a word we made up to describe things we're to lazy to figure out in an effort to appease our conscience. If that term is sufficient for someone then great, however my sensibility requires of me an answer that cohesively apprehends truth. This in no way makes another person inferior or dull, it's just how my mind flows~

In any case Hope you have a Happy 4th of July!

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RogerB

We accept a lot on faith. Ever see the picture of a child sitting in school and a funnel in his head with information poured in? That's us. We've all been conditioned to walk the walk and talk the talk. We go to college to learn how to work in a job, to do things a certain way, right or wrong. Look at all the past failures of mans economic and government policies. Why should I take their word in blind faith. I have been deceived many, many times but God has given me eyes to see clearer. I'm very aware of things going on. I just don't take things at face value anymore. We are told to prove all things.

Just yesterday there was an article about the Syrian occupation and how it wasn't going well. There was a map.
I saw the map as the one of The Greater Israel Project. That's what's planned. Syria is going to be done away with even as prophecy mentions. It becomes the land of the new AC who will be in Jerusalem. Deception is marching right along.

I have come to see that the world is filled with deception and lies. People actually believe what the TV news gives as news, people believe their nations leaders who God calls beasts. We accept science blindly. Every day we are fed news about going to Mars or something found on Mars. I can't verify it. I can only evaluate what I see and evaluate.

God says he fastened earth that it can't be moved. Science says oh yes it can. I'm holding to what God says. NASA has given us pictures of earth for several years. America has gotten larger and smaller. Clouds seem to repeat in patterns and even the word SEX can be seen in the last one. If one looks closely at them you can see problems.

After WW II the army went to the south pole region in Operation Highjump (To get over the ice wall). Then there was Operation Fishbowl where hundreds of expensive nuclear missiles were shot straight up. Why? Why did Hillary Clinton keep mentioning during her campaign about breaking through that "glass ceiling".

We all use science and I am not antagonistic against it. I am aware that godlessness can be pushed at you in different ways. Our children don't believe in God. Schools have trained them otherwise. Then why not use the other tools of science to remove any remaining ideas of God from their heads. make them obedient to the state.

I'm at peace with you. I have no problem with anyone on how they see things.

Thought I'add something. Just checked temperature in space. NASA says -454 degrees. Imagine the sun 93 million miles away going through that much cooling and still being hot when it reaches earth. Wow! and If we were on a globe why is it so cold at the South Pole as compared to the North? The sun hits both the same amount on a globe. I'm a logical type person. I'm been an electronic technician for about 58 years.

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sermonindex

So are some saying they believe in a flat earth?

Bro Blaine

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sermonindex

It's painful to me when threads deteriorate to (what feels like) people being cornered into identifying with one "label" or another, and then from there having others attack. Where is the love in that?

So many threads get locked when conversations take that turn.

Brother Roger, I love you a lot and have greatly appreciated your willingness to boldly state your beliefs, without attacking others for not agreeing. And yet it's hard for me when you list so many contrarian ideas in one thread. It's overwhelming. I have not seen much good fruit from that approach in previous threads that broach these topics. In my opinion, you set yourself up to being written off, which I know you don't mind, since you are secure in your identity in Christ (and I do praise God for that!)!

Whereas brother Fletcher for example, has honed in on a story in the Bible and seems to be patiently and painstakingly studying and researching to come to a conclusion with a clear conscience in due time. It's much easier to bear with his tone and tact, and we would do well to learn from him in that. I'm saying this regardless of the topic!

I know people have all sorts of approaches to online conversations, but I do hope and pray these topics can continue being discussed without being derailed by condescending language toward people who are questioning the status quo mainstream narrative.

I'm learning a lot from you all through these discussions!

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TMK

Fletcher-

I understand your concern. You think if the HS truly inspired ancient men what to write, then it has to be 100% accurate.

It depends on whether your definition of inspired is "dictated" or "moved."

I think the Bible is perfectly accurate where it must be. Other areas, like in poetic sections do not need to be 100% accurate because poetry by definition uses metaphors etc.

As an aside, I believe Genesis 1 is a poetry section although I realize I am in the extreme minority in that regard.

I appreciate your tone on this thread- I apologize if I seem a little testy but I do get a little riled when people start arguing for a flat earth.

Roger- when Hillary was talking about breaking through the glass ceiling she meant a woman becoming president. It is a very common term in regard to women's rights and the corporate ladder. Surely you do not think she was talking about a literal glasss ceiling of a snow globe that we live inside?

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docs

The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, is eternal and eternal basically means out of time. The Spirit transcends time in His omniscient knowledge. Its hard to see how the omniscient Spirit of truth could be engaged in someone speaking "by the Spirit" yet being factually incorrect in their supposedly inspired speaking.

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TMK

David-- then what do you do with the various obvious inaccuracies in scripture? (e.g. Salt can lose its saltiness; there were nephilim before and after the flood, rainwater does not return to the sky, a bat is a bird, to name a few off the top of my head)

Again, I am not saying the Bible is not inspired as far as vital points and Gods purposes are concerned. I just don't think it requires that we accept inaccurate statements as true in order to preserve the truth that the Bible is inspired.

Obviously, inspiration does not require 100% accuracy because there are inaccuracies.

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docs

/Obviously inspiration does not requires 100% accuracy./

That's a new one for as far as the inspiration of the Spirit of truth is concerned.

It took me about 30 seconds to look up the verse about rainwater (and snow) not returning to the sky and I saw immediately it doesn't say it in the way you implied. I wonder about the others. It's easy to determine what the word means when it says salt can lose its saltiness.

If the Bible says there were nephilim before the flood and after the flood I would wager a potful of faith that the Spirit of truth correctly men to accurately record that there were nepbilim before and after the flood.

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Martyr

Proud papa, you say "They are wrong about the origins of life and creation, because they refuse to think outside the box.
They are stuck in a paradigm that they created with there own imaginations."

I think this describes you more than them. They are willing to look at the world around them, analyze it and come to conclusions based on solid reasoning. It's not all right but they are not in a box, they don't all have secret agendas. I praise God that men forsook the idea that God will heal every illness we have if you cry hard enough or sacrifice enough and instead sought medicinal plants and herbs that can heal the body. We live in this world and are subject to the order within.

Evolution is a good logical theory based on the evidence. It is easy to see why someone would believe that. I personally don't have a problem with evolution though I do not believe it. My thinking is if evolution is true what order guided that evolution to this state? What told the cells in the neck of the giraffe to grow in order to get food from the top? Yes, I think there is something to the theory, I just don't think its the origin of man.

To those on the forum who are confused about how the bible could be wrong on scientific matters I again ask: have you ever spoken by the Spirit? And if yes did you know everything about science, physics, math, history, etc? Or did God speak through YOU using YOUR mind and understanding to convey a relevant message to the people around you according to THEIR understanding?

Evangelical biblical inerrancy is so messed up, people cannot see the truth in front of them because of it. Instead they do these ridiculous illogical leaps of thought to make them seem right. Ridiculous. They think they are defending the bible but they are not (It makes no difference! We are a SPIRITUAL people it is THAT message that is important). They are not defending the bible they are defending a doctrine they hold on to that the bible is 100% correct about everything. They ignore the age of it, the understanding of the time, the context and the people who wrote it and read it through a 21st century mans eyes who must believe every word is literally true or he's an infidel. I would rather read it according to logos (logic, reason, Christ) and see the things for what they are and to know the truth of what I'm reading because Christ is truth and His words are spirit and life. I do not fear truth because it is of Christ and speaks of Him.

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docs

I also remember martyr you recently said you won't find a explanation of the atonement in the scriptures because the Bible is not for that. That's obviously not true.

Meanwhile, I would be a bit careful with the syncretism you espouse.

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TMK

//It's easy to determine what the word means when it says salt can lose its saltiness.//

What does it mean?? I am just quoting what it says; specifically that salt that loses it saltiness is no good and should tossed out in the street to be trampled on by men.

If you are saying Jesus didn't mean that salt could literally lose its saltiness, you are proving my point. Inspiration does not require 100% accuracy when poetry and exaggeration and metaphors are employed.

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docs

Well you've got your view obviously and that is played but I have never been taught to quibble over things like this in the word of the Lord inspired from cover to cover by the Spirit of truth.

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drifter

If the Bible says that a bat is a bird then it is. I would rather trust God's word than trust a twenty-first century classification system of animals.

Seriously, evolution is a viable theory? The evolutionary hypothesis suggests that all plants and animals evolved from a common ancestor.So far as I know, there is no mechanism in nature that can add information to a genome, be it plant or animal. The single cell organism life supposedly evolved from would have to contain the totality of information for every genome. A bacteria, or a crocodile, or a human's genome only has the information to be that specific thing. No natural process can add new information.

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docs

If you Google the question about Jesus and the salt it takes about two minutes to find and read a adequate explanation. Let God be true!

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TMK

David I agree with you 100%. Of course there is an explanation. But in so doing you must accept the fact that Jesus was not being literal. Bring the creator of NaCl he knew this molecule could not lose its saltiness. But he suggested that it could. Why? Rhetoric.

The very same can be true for problematic passages about the cosmos in Genesis, Psalms and elsewhere.

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proudpapa

RE : /// I think this describes you more than them.///

My view is Based on the Scriptures and not imagination so it does not describe me.

RE : /// They are willing to look at the world around them, analyze it and come to conclusions based on solid reasoning. ///

No !, That would lead them to recognizing a Creator.

It is an intentionally biased view that is an attempt to try and undermine/disprove the Bible,

Solid reasoning demand's that if they where correct that we would see transitionary species halfway between various species.

It takes a wild and intentionally biased imagination to make there view work,
But it is a clear example of the foolishness of man when his wisdom does not begain with the fear of the Lord.

The results of Darwins evolution theory on our culture can be summed up by a song that said basically : We are nothing but mammels so lets do it like they do it on the discovery channel.

add


T
TMK

//If the Bible says that a bat is a bird then it is.//

Why would you make such a comment?


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drifter

Leviticus 11:19

https://answersingenesis.org/birds/bats-of-a-feather/

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Martyr

Docs : "I also remember martyr you recently said you won't find a explanation of the atonement in the scriptures because the Bible is not for that. That's obviously not true.

Meanwhile, I would be a bit careful with the syncretism you espouse."

My point with that was it is not spelled out. Meaning Paul and the other apostles wrote letters to various churches to address specific things. None of them wrote out a doctrinal thesis spelling out the beliefs of Christianity. Romans is probably the closest you get to that. This is why there is so much debate around the atonement. They are trying to discern it from the letters but it was something they experienced and taught fully in person. That was my only point, its not spelled out. If it was there would be no debates.

Drifter: "Seriously, evolution is a viable theory? The evolutionary hypothesis suggests that all plants and animals evolved from a common ancestor.So far as I know, there is no mechanism in nature that can add information to a genome, be it plant or animal. The single cell organism life supposedly evolved from would have to contain the totality of information for every genome. A bacteria, or a crocodile, or a human's genome only has the information to be that specific thing. No natural process can add new information."

I never said it was a viable theory, but a logical one. I do not subscribe to it the way it is presented. I do accept that things change over time, that is the world we live in. Everything is changing. You are the result of two different people come together to create a new person. That is pretty incredible! But I get your point and that is why I do not subscribe to darwinian evolution. Yet I have talked to non christians who have believed it and found it beneficial to point out that even if evolution is true there would have to be someone guiding it.


Proudpapa: take your pick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils

But those are probably all fake right? Look at that list. Look at the human section of all the different fossils and tell me it is not logical to think evolution. Obviously they do not have the Wisdom from above, my point was at least they are being logical in their "human" thinking unlike those on here who can't accept the bible has things regarding physics and cosmology that are incorrect.

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docs

Yet the various letters taken together as a whole have given us a pretty thorough evaluation of the atonement. The necessity of a once for all atonement is detailed in the OT and NT. The complete and perfect sacrifice that Christ was as He offered Himself is spelled out clearly. The results of the atonement and its extravagant provision for each believer is spelled out. The faith necessary to appropriate the benefits is discussed in the scriptures. And because of what we read of and appropriate by faith what is presented to us therefore we can preach and teach on it in person also. The Spirit and the word work together to reveal it and make it real to us. Taken as a whole, the Bible is astoundingly comprehensive in what it presents as facts to us regarding the atonement. The Bible is the ONLY book that does this. It doesn't come close to the false accusation of worshiping the Bible and its scriptures. It's knowing where the best source of information is.

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Martyr

Agreed.

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docs

So the Holy Spirit of TRUTH, knowing all facts in the universe from beginning to end, would inspire men to make incorrect statements about physics and cosmology?

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Martyr

Have you ever spoken by the Spirit before? Ever been given wisdom in a situation from God and spoke accordingly? The Spirit speaks through the minds and mouths of men. He shows the prophet what is going on and the prophet says what needs to be said. The ancients lived in a time when the world was flat. So when they gave their prophetic word it was through that mind. I don't know what you think it is. I feel as if you believe there was this great rapturous experience when a prophet prophesied and his mind was taken into heaven and God spoke through his mouth while his mind did nothing. Not how it works. The prophets were men brought up by God who could see what was going on at all times because it was who they are, they had the Spirit of Truth and could see what was going on around them.

Have you ever been jealous? angry? What happens? Those things change your view on things and you interpret accordingly and speak accordingly. In the OT those are called spirits. What we need is the Holy Spirit. He operates likewise, He changes your thinking to see things according to the truth and you speak. Jeremiah (picking someone random) was a man who saw the truth. He didn't open his mouth and a thunderous voice of God came out. God put the words in His mouth through the act of showing Jeremiah what was going on and he spoke accordingly. I don't believe God told Jeremiah what to say in the sense that it was dictated. I believe he spoke freely but he spoke FROM and IN that Spirit making the message, at its source, divine. It did not overrule him, it changed him. He was still a man and he still believed in the cosmology of the day. I'm sure you claim to have the Spirit of Truth but still believe false things (as do I). Can you answer me all questions of physics because the Spirit dwells in you? Thats silly.

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TMK

Nigel wrote:

Leviticus 11:19

https://answersingenesis.org/birds/bats-of-a-feather/
----------/------/-///

The point is that even Moses was not calling a bat a bird- but you said if the Bible calls a bat a bird then that is what it is.

That's why I asked why you made that statement. You know a bat is not a bird so why would you say that it is?

I originally brought up the bat/bird issue because it is another example of how certain scriptures taken at face value in the English translations are not correct, and that you either have to rely on the idea of a poor translation from the original language or look for some other reasoning- like the salt losing saltiness passage.

T
TMK

Martyr wrote:

I'm sure you claim to have the Spirit of Truth but still believe false things (as do I). Can you answer me all questions of physics because the Spirit dwells in you? Thats silly.
------------------------

I think this is well stated and worthy of much consideration when thinking about and discussing the current topic.

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docs

I don't believe each time a prophet spoke it was a great rapturous experience. Far from it.

You seem a bit double minded if I may say it. A double minded man is unstable and that is likely why when I read your posts I become uneasy and unsettled at times. You seem eager to punch holes in beliefs long held by the church and which it has benefited from yet you seem to end up saying but I myself don't believe what I just said. You don't seem settled and seem to rely on your own reasoning more than is useful in the realm of faith. In line with this, you have just led a frontal assault on the inerrancy of scripture but yet say you are a firm believer in the Bible and what it says. You have said people worship the Bible and because of fear are afraid to admit it is not really God's word but words about God written on a page. But yet you say you believe God inspired all of what is written in the Bible. You seem to want to have it two ways at the same when really you chip away at the faith long delivered to the saints. You can take or leave my advice of course but my brotherly admonition would be go grow a little and get settled. A double minded man is...?

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RogerB

I don't like to post videos.

But Mr Trump has just announced recently that he wants us to go back to the moon.

This is a super short video. Watch Buzz Aldrins facial expressions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmHcuHPZU1A

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Martyr

"I don't believe each time a prophet spoke it was a great rapturous experience. Far from it.

You seem a bit double minded if I may say it. A double minded man is unstable and that is likely why when I read your posts I become uneasy and unsettled at times. You seem eager to punch holes in beliefs long held by the church and which it has benefited from yet you seem to end up saying but I myself font believe what I just said. You don't seem settled and seem to rely on your own reasoning. In line with this, you have just led a frontal assault on the inerrancy of scripture but yet say you are a firm believer in the Bible and what it says. You have said people worship the Bible and because of fear are afraid to admit it is not really God's word but words about God written on a page. But yet you say you believe God inspired all of what is written in the Bible. You seem to want to have it two ways at the same when really you chip away at the faith long delivered to the saints. You can take or leave my advice of course but my brotherly admonition would be go grow a little and get settled. A double minded man is...?"

Ah, don't answer my points attack the man! Where have we seen that before? Beliefs long held by the church, i'm assuming you mean Protestantism and not the much older beliefs of the catholic church? But that's a different subject altogether.

The wind blows where it pleases, and you hear its sound, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

The fact that you cannot pinpoint my beliefs, that you cannot find a solid footing is because I stand on a foundation that is not a creed or a doctrine. It is the Spirit and He is not so easily discerned. What does Tyler believe? He seems to say the bible contains the markings of its time yet claims its inspiration? Not everything is black and white, not everything is able to be expressed in words. It is Spirit, not letter but it is very solid ground.

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docs

I've addressed the points you have made more than once.

Your reply is more of what I just spoke of. You believe the scriptures in the Bible are errant and incorrect in places though inspired by an inerrant God who inspired men to write by the Spirit of TRUTH. But you know this because you rely on the Spirit since everything is not written in black and white. It's an unstable conclusion buttressed by the amount of your own reasoning you have wrapped around it. It actually chips away at stable faith.

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proudpapa

I believe that the Writings of the Prophets where beyond there own intellectual understanding and that they actually went back and studied there own writings to try and better understand what was contained in what they wrote.

1 Peter 1
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

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Martyr

"Your reply is more of what I just spoke of. You believe the scriptures in the Bible are errant and incorrect in places though inspired by an inerrant God who inspired men to write by the Spirit of TRUTH"

Exactly. The SPIRIT of TRUTH. It is the Spirit that is truth. When the bible talks about the pillars that uphold the earth it is the Spirit behind that message that is truth, it's just being conveyed through a primitive mindset. There are no pillars. Im glad youre using the word inspired, that's exactly what I'm saying. Our religion is a spiritual one is it not? Why are you upset then if i judge things using the Spirit as the standard? When did we go back to following the written law?

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docs

Nobody and not I have referred to going back to the written law. That's completely out of left field.

You're saying this Spirit of truth you rely on more than the written word inspired men to write incorrect things. Jesus taught the inerrancy of scripture so I'll throw my two cents worth in with Him. At the bottom line a belief in the errancy of scripture is really a slight on the nature of God and the sinlessness of Christ.

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Martyr

It is not. Paul said the law was spiritual. Meditate on that. So is the rest of the bible.

He didn't inspire them to write wrong things, they spoke truth. The truth was in the Spirit. Do you believe the earth is held up by pillars?

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docs

If the Spirit inspired them to write the truth and the earth is not really held up by pillars then how can it be true in the Spirit? This is another example of the contradictions you employ. These are contradictory and unstable conclusions. The earth is not really held up by pillars but they wrote truth because the truth is in the Spirit? Yet I recognize and acknowledge the use of figurative language in the Bible.

Good night good bro. I likely won't address this issue anymore on the morrow.

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proudpapa

Martyr wrote :
RE : ///Proudpapa: take your pick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils
But those are probably all fake right? Look at that list. Look at the human section of all the different fossils and tell me it is not logical to think evolution.///

I was speaking of the transformation/transition of one kind of species into another kind of species.

let me use another's words, so you can better understand what I was implying :

Evolution Is Not Happening Now

"First of all, the lack of a case for evolution is clear from the fact that no one has ever seen it happen. If it were a real process, evolution should still be occurring, and there should be many "transitional" forms that we could observe. What we see instead, of course, is an array of distinct "kinds" of plants and animals with many varieties within each kind, but with very clear and -- apparently -- unbridgeable gaps between the kinds. That is, for example, there are many varieties of dogs and many varieties of cats, but no "dats" or "cogs." Such variation is often called microevolution, and these minor horizontal (or downward) changes occur fairly often, but such changes are not true "vertical" evolution.

Evolutionary geneticists have often experimented on fruit flies and other rapidly reproducing species to induce mutational changes hoping they would lead to new and better species, but these have all failed to accomplish their goal. No truly new species has ever been produced, let alone a new "basic kind."" - Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.

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proudpapa

Darwin evolution was not a result of sincerely seeking truth by observation nor simply the logical result of observation.
Nor should we assume is the case with much of modern science.
As what the following details :

" In 1830 the English geologist Charles Lyell published the first of three books on geology, which still form the foundation of the discipline. Lyell basically excluded from his deliberations the possibility of such catastrophes [reported in the Bible as the flood.., which imply the supernatural involvement of God and which where unacceptable to the burgeoning scientism of the time. He]...attempted to explain the rise of different geological strata through processes which are still observable today...

Now it is a historical fact of considerable importance that these new insights were not essentially grounded in new scientific discoveries. These would come later, for when one is unconditionally bent on finding something, then sometimes often crops up which appears to be the thing being looked for.

The impetus for development of the evolutionary conception of geology was, then, philosophical deliberations. That is highly significant. The point of departure of this new outlook was not changes in facts but rather changes in the presuppositions with which the facts were regarded.

It was just the same with Charles Darwin, who as a young man read Lyell's books and found an indirect answer for a question which had exercised him greatly. For he refused to accept the assumption that all living things had come from God's creative act; yet he could not conceive of an alternative possibility. Now he became familiar with Lyells ideas. In them he found the notion that our world must be very old, for the gradual formation of the geological strata would obviously have required a great deal of time.

And it was precisely such long spans of time which Darwin would later require for his view of the origin of the species. For the development of life forms necessitated billions of years; otherwise Darwin's ideas would have been absurd from the start.

These notions exerted mutual influence on each other. Later Darwin Published his theory of evolution-likewise not essentially on the basis of new scientific discoveries, but rather based on philosophical considerations...14

He was looking for another solution to the problem of "the origin of life" for he did not want to believe any more in creation. He had a long period of doubting his faith between the ages of 22 and 29, and during this time he read an essay by the clergyman Thomas Robert Malthus on overpopulation.

Malthus taught that wars, famines, and epidemics were necessary, for that was the only way for overpopulation to be dealt with. there is said Malthus, a struggle for existence, the survival of the strongest or the fittest.

"And than it suddenly dawned on me," reported Darwin later. all at once he realized what the correct solution to his problem was. The next 20 years, until 1859, he spent gathering arguments for his new theory.

Do you see how Darwin's views originated ? Actually, it originated in the same manner that science in general operates. Science begins not so much with making observations and then constructing a theory. Rather, it begins with a conception, with an idea....

Perhaps you have the erroneous notion that scientist are entirely rational persons who function totally objectively, who gather and organize facts in an unbiased fashion. Well, Darwin is not the only one who operated as he did : all scientist employ these methods.15

W.J Ouweneel, Der Untergang des christlichen Abedlands (2d ed., Heykoop, The Netherlands, 1978) 25-30

add : as recorded in Eta Linnemann's book : Historical Criticism of the Bible Methodology or Ideology

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RogerB

I'm sorry for upsetting everyone. I sometimes forget about others feelings. I think I will stop writing anything for a while. I need some time in prayer and in the word. Forgive me

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MrBillPro

Roger, don't beat yourself up to bad, this is what a lot of threads here have led to lately, this place has really done a 180 since I joined. If the truth be known, a lot of us need to do what you said for a while.:-)

G
ginnyrose

QUOTE:
"The impetus for development of the evolutionary conception of geology was, then, philosophical deliberations. That is highly significant. The point of departure of this new outlook was not changes in facts but rather changes in the presuppositions with which the facts were regarded."

I suspect this concept is true of any who would argue the irrelevancy of God's directives.

Sandra

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RogerB

Concerning creation since others mention it here, How easy it is to picture it with the earth being created first and fixed. Then build a firmament over it, set a light by day and one by night in it. I was out in my backyard the other day and saw the moon during the day and realized something; what's it doing inside the blue sky? Shouldn't it be way out there 240,000 miles away on the other side? I see airplanes in the sky at 30,000 feet and they are specks, yet here is the moon with size and even blue sky behind it.

Prayed much last night for forgiveness from being rude and testy, and God revealed to me that he was the source of truth, and not men. I think we should all pay more attention to what God says. Maybe we miss things.

Hope all of you have a great summer.

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RogerB

Was looking at the simplicity of creation as given.

Nothing but water.
God divided the water above and below with a firmament which is actually an enclosure.
Sun and moon placed in the firmament
Seas created and separated, land appears
Birds created and they too fly in the firmament, the same one that the moon and sun appear in.

Simple enough

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TMK

How high is the enclosure?

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RogerB

NASA knows.

T
TMK

http://creation.mobi/refuting-flat-earth

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twayneb

I believe the miracle recorded in Joshua really happened. He described what he thought he saw. God could have kept it light while the battle was being waged. Do I think the earth suddenly stopped on its axis? I am not saying it's 100% impossible- God could have dealt with all the other ramifications of this (essentially the destruction of the entire earth) but I think it just appeared to Joshua that the sun didn't move.

I also believe it happened just as recorded. But it seems to me that you are accepting uniformitarianism (human understanding of science) and miraculous intervention (God, the creator of the physical laws, being perfectly able to suspend those laws) as both being absolute and it creates an unresolvable conflict.

If God creates the laws of physics, gravity, etc., is He not able to suspend them temporarily? That is by definition what a miracle is, right?

If the particular shadow on the dial moved, while the other natural laws continued in an uninterupted fashion, which is totally possible as well, then this is no less a miracle for God. But then the shadow would have had to either speed up until it was in sync again or "jump" back to its original location. Either way, it was a miracle that suspended some law of nature. But again, the creator of the law has the authority and ability to suspend the law.

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RogerB

Water seeks it's own level.

Gemini 4 had a problem on their space mission

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18268216_1420114268048130_1998176364874064505_n.jpg?oh=2ba277505d9f11fe7eb7cdf7956176f5&oe=597859BF

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proudpapa

Little off topic but a true story with two other witnesses that where there with me and observed it with me.

I was out at a job a few months ago on a project which was on the largest altitude in that county. It was a very clear day and some jets started xing the sky to the west with Contrails. I had noticed them and was joking with the other guys about them being chemtrails. and because of this I was observing them rather closely all that day.
The trails begain spreading out and merging. And formed into clouds, later that evening, maybe the next day it was raining

clarity

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TMK

//Gemini 4 had a problem on their space mission//

Roger that was a preflight lab test photo of Ed White. So yes it was an office being reflected. It would help your cause if such stupid memes were actually honest.

Will you pretty please with sugar on top stop posting the most ridiculous statements and nonsense imaginable. Surely there is some flat earther forum you can post on.

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RogerB

Yeah, we need to end this thread and get on with other serious topics. I'm all for it. It doesn't matter to me if the earth is flat or round, I'm looking for the Kingdom

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