Church of England: LGBT 'Not a Sin'

Half of England is atheist, half Muslim and the other half is deceived.

I know what I said. But, if the church can mark a non existent gender there are three halves of everything.

Let's hope all those churches close.

Dolfan, my wife is from England. She can absolutely confirm this to be true. It is largely a Muslim country at this point with those who are English being largely atheist

As the official CofE website points out, the vote went overwhelmingly in favor of welcoming transgender people,

The problem here is with VOTING. If you are in a Church that decides things by VOTING then please run from the Church now itself. It is just the matter of time before they will collapse to any moral decline. Voting is not at all God's way of doing thing. God wanted to elect Kings for Israel. Never asked them to Vote. In New Covenant as well Paul asks Timothy to appoint Elders not to vote for elders.

The fact that there is a voting is clear sign that they want people to decide what to do, what is best for them. But God wants us to seek his will and ways in everything.

Any Church that conducts voting is already on a path of decline. PERIOD. God is true. If we seek to please men we cannot please God (Gal 1:10). I know many reads will be saying that VOTING is just a small thing, why should we take that serious in our church. But that shows the Church's careless attitude towards pleasing God.

Let's hope all those churches close.

It’s tempting to focus on one symptom (sexual identities) without realizing that we may be doing the same thing, just as Paul says in Rom 2. We may be placing our identity in something about ourselves ”“ if not our sexual preference, it’s our religious preference, and we too may assert our self-righteousness. But Paul brings the focus to the universal need for Christ ”“ and in Him these other identities matter little. ("I count it all rubbish” he says.)

I hope we can see more of that emphasis today - beginning in "the household of God"!!

This movement or that movement is continually exposing themselves as having fallen astray. But what is also being exposed is the danger of men bringing there conscience under the subjection of a leader or movement

Quote "Half of England is atheist, half Muslim and the other half is deceived."

Tim, your Math made me smile :) 150%? Well as a Brit living here I would guess we may have at least 2% true bible believing Christians, probably more. There are nowhere near 50% (30 Million) Muslims in the UK. The figure is around 3 million (that's 5% of pop) and a large proportion of those would be 'nominal' Muslims, not dedicated Islamists.

So if we take into account the 'nominal Christians (e.g CofE) and nominal Muslims, Hindus, sikhs, et al you probably have around 70% being either agnostic or having some belief in a god. There is only a small percentage of real Atheists

However, I agree with your sentiments, even if the Math is a bit OTT. :)

"Britain is a post Christian country...........bro Frank"

Absolutely true. But isn't most of the Western world now post Christian? Problem is the USA thinks it is still Christian! In reality it is just another form of 'evangelical' apostate Christianity.

The C of E has long been apostate (as long as I have been alive) and is not representative of the true Christian church in England, which as I have indicated is very small as a percentage of the population. But wasn't it always so?
You can go back a few hundred years and there were the bible believing dissenters (Baptists, etc) who were persecuted by the state Church (CofE) because they refused to recognise it.

Yes there is much pandering to the Muslims as well as the Gay minority, so they appear to be much larger in number than they are.

Diane, the focus is not on one symptom, the focus is on what is true and what is not.

Bro Frank, I believe you have missed my point because of my sketchy explanation.
A lot of the divisiveness surrounding the gay issue/gay ordination indeed arises out of obsession over ONE presenting symptom, one particular behavior, with little regard for the whole individual ”“ or the cultural climate in which such things arise. What about the related issues of identity, longing for acceptance, and so forth … all driving factors tainted by sin. A hornet’s nest of sin issues apply to LGBT interest group. Consider the problem of unforgiveness, which is now given an honorable status. Today the revered voice is the voice of offense. Naturally. When God is lost, mercy is lost. I ask: Is the absence of mercy not the worst sin problem? That problem would destroy us all ”“ apart from God’s mercy on us.

We’ll get nowhere if we put homosexuality at the top of the sin list. The Bible doesn’t do that. It’s we who do that to the Bible.

There’s plenty of Romans 2 kind of Christians around, and they are just as much of the problem. If all we can do is bash out verses against homosexuality, we convince no one but ourselves, and we are merely dry springs. The "other side” bashes out their own set of verses or defenses and decide we hate them. No one gets a taste of Christ who alone can heal the disease of sin and bring meaning, purpose, and true identity into one’s life. Meanwhile, each side reinforces their righteousness.

Those who drift into fruitless and harmful ways of living (intentional or not) do so as a way of trying to make life work for them ”“ WITHOUT GOD (the root sin). That’s our cultural climate today. So, what does that mean for us believers? Stick to our job! It’s a ministry of reconciliation… mercy. (see 2 Corinthians 17-21)

Frank, I’m sure you agree. Hope that’s a better explanation of my thoughts.

Diane

The gay community does not and has never wanted acceptance.

I would challenge that, Frank. It’s an innate need, the need to belong. We’re created to belong to God. But sin has turned that natural need into destructive behaviors.

Presently my congregation is divided over the gay ordination issue. I’ve heard all the stuff you describe. I’ve seen a lot of mercilessness, esp on the "pro” side, but the other side too, though far less. If we stick to character qualities alone, we could have enough to focus on without mentioning sexual orientation. Mostly, it’s an issue over approach to scripture ”“scripture submit to man, vs man submit to scripture. That’s the real divide, but no one wants to talk about that ”“ and it’s easier to talk about homosexuality. There’s also the clergy/laity divide which has become unbiblical. Correcting that in itself could take care of the gay issue. They say, "Follow the dollar”. That’s the underlying momentum ”“ money, status, pension for wan-a-be gay clergy. If there was no money in it, I doubt that there would have been such a fuss… It wouldn’t pay off.

The gay ordination overture is a foolish appeal. Sadly, there will be no winner in the final vote! Regardless of who "wins”, half the congregation is gone. And that’s a loss for all. That’s the tragic outcome of placing the divide where the apostle Paul did not put the divide. The divide is not pro or against any issue ”“ but the divide is between God and sinner (all people) ”“and we all need mercy.

The attack is coming from the sinner against the saint Diane, not the other way around.

As much as I denounce the demands for gay ordination, safe spaces, or whatever is on the social palate, I am deeply concerned about the habit of stopping before the end of Romans 1 in our biblical defenses against homosexuality. That’s abortive theology! What about the next chapter.. and the next.

Part of OUR problem is our propensity to grab the "carrot” our opponents dangle before us. It derails us ”“ and gives them the upper hand. They’ve got lots of support - gov’t, schools, Hollywood, and now the "thought police” which is arising to revered status. I don’t think we’ll stop the slippery slope, Frank ”“ not on the sexual identity issues. It’s the wrong battle ground. ... don't you think?

Thank you Frank,
The more I have been "immersed" in the issue, the more I suspect that God will target this group in his great Covenant Promise - to heal, transform, and forgive. And it may be the rest of us who are silenced and humbled.

Isn't that what Jesus often did in the gospels?

Diane

if you mean the saints will be silenced from sharing and standing upon the truth then I disagree

I suspect that God views the un-mercifulness of the Romans 2 type of Christians today as a greater sin than the entire list of sinners in Romans 1 ”“ including the homosexuals.

Jesus poured out his grace on the very ones whom, in that day, the moral police most condemned ”“ the tax collectors and prostitutes. I’m sure Jesus would have added the homosexuals if they were on the radar of these moral police. Maybe there weren't many around Palestine.

Jesus condemned a lot of sins which we easily live in without batting an eyelash ”“ barely realizing that they apply to us. What about those who likewise fail to see sins which apply to them - like homosexuality or rebellion. Yet they are unchurched, deceived, or not very familiar with the Bible or those verses ”“ the very ones we’ve highlighted, underscored and circled so often that we we’ve burned a hole through the page.

It’s time to be silenced!! The treatment of Eugene Peterson by the "moral police” is abhorrent and unmerciful. I hope many read his response and are silenced and repentant. He’s had to shut himself away from the media vultures ”“ and also those who are hovering over, quick to condemn. He’s a dear brother!!! The Church cannot afford to be so torn apart by self-righteousness, picking on hypothetical points and whatever smells of sin. The lefties are taking advantage of this craziness, and making inroads because of it.

Jesus poured out his grace on the "worst sinners" of his day. Who are considered the worst of sinners today? Yes, the homosexuals. Some day we will be silenced of all our ramblings about their sins, as they proclaim the grace of God! Jesus will turn over the tables!

Here’s Peterson’s defense. It's too bad this was needed:
http://aliveliterary.com/eugene-peterson-issues-revised-statement-following-religion-news-service-interview/

Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

1Co 5:7

Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.[fn]

1Co 5:8

Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavenedbread of sincerity and truth.

1Co 5:9q

¶

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.

1Co 5:10

Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

1Co 5:11

But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner””not even to eat with such a person.

1Co 5:12

For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?

Hi Diane,

The more I have been "immersed" in the issue, the more I suspect that God will target this group in his great Covenant Promise - to heal, transform, and forgive. And it may be the rest of us who are silenced and humbled.

On this LGBT issue - there's been much attention among evangelical churches on holding steadfast to the truth of the law. This is important - we must be supportive of their efforts and do likewise.

Yet let us not forget that Jesus came primarily not to preach the truth of the law, but the truth of the gospel of grace. The truth of the gospel is greater than the truth of the law (John 1:17).

To water down the truth of the law is to water down our need of the gospel (Galatians 3:24). Such attempts might tickle ears, but ultimately hinders the sinner from receiving his healing from God.

The gospel of grace brings about transformation of lives - bringing total and complete liberty to those in captivity (John 8:36). If we claim that the gospel is being preached, then where are the testimonies?

I contend that we don't hear many testimonies of freedom (e.g. from bondages to LGBT desires, pornography, alcoholism, drug addiction, etc.) even among the evangelical community, because the gospel is poorly understood and weakly preached. Many have even ceased to believe that God is willing to heal and does heal - just like swine trampling on pearls, I have witnessed testimonies of freedom from LGBT desires being dismissed by professing evangelicals.

It is thus fundamentally not an LGBT crisis or porn crisis - it is a gospel crisis!

I believe God is intent on restoring gospel authority among His people. And like you, Diane - I look forward to a fuller display of God's glory through His people. God has given me assurance to that end, and I rejoice in that hope - for how can we not be excited about what God is doing?

Hi Diane, you said:

"It’s time to be silenced!! The treatment of Eugene Peterson by the "moral police” is abhorrent and unmerciful. I hope many read his response and are silenced and repentant. He’s had to shut himself away from the media vultures ”“ and also those who are hovering over, quick to condemn. He’s a dear brother!!! The Church cannot afford to be so torn apart by self-righteousness, picking on hypothetical points and whatever smells of sin."

I just wanted to share that even years ago in 2014 he expressed similar sentiments, which is no small thing. According to the man who did the most recent interview with Mr. Peterson:

"...in 2014...Peterson shares insights that are interesting in light of recent events. Below is the video of the Q and A with Peterson at Western Seminary.

Around the 2:23 mark, Peterson talks about being raised in a culture when gay was "really bad.” He says, "I accepted the status quo.” But recently, Peterson says, he thought about two homosexual men in his church, one who committed suicide and another who was divorced by his wife.

The result, Peterson said, was that, "I started to change my mind.”

Around the 2:31 mark, Peterson is asked about how to pastor families whose children come out as gay. He says, "I’ve helped several families accept their children as gay. And, uh, they are devastated at first and then with just careful, prayerful conversation, they’ve finally accepted that this is not a bad thing, that this can be a good thing. This can be a flourishing thing.”

Around the 2:36 mark, Peterson says, "I’ve paid attention to the literature that’s written on homosexuality by evangelicals, by mainline people. And when people, a lot of pastors have asked me about this, call about it, and I copy these things.” He references an article "in the Christian Century right now” that he calls "brilliant” and "masterful.”

What was the article Peterson lauded and recommended? It was titled, "What is marriage now? A Pauline case for same-sex marriage” by Gerald Schlabach."

Also, I just wanted to reply to one other thought shared

"Jesus poured out his grace on the "worst sinners" of his day. Who are considered the worst of sinners today? Yes, the homosexuals. Some day we will be silenced of all our ramblings about their sins, as they proclaim the grace of God!"

May many of them indeed one day proclaim the grace of God-- the grace of God that saved them from a perverse and sinful lifestyle that would have otherwise kept them from heaven. May He indeed open their eyes and in His mercy deliver them and us from the deceitfulness of sin.

But we should also note that in these last days, it is He Himself, the God of grace who will allow those who love their sins to be swept away. For it is written,

"...they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this reason God will send them a strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

That they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

(2 Thessalonians 2:10-12)

We want to be very careful to be loving and gentle and prayerful but there a time is coming and now is when the call is going out: "Who is on the Lord's side?"

He spilled His Blood for us and carried our sins in His body on the tree and He wants LGBT people to turn from their sin and run to Him, but He will not bless perversity masquerading as righteousness.

Thanks for highlighting the grave errors in Eugene Peterson's doctrine, followthelamb.

We simply cannot arrive at God's understanding unless we commence with His definition of words. Looks like Peterson's views on the issue are rooted in unbiblical definitions of words - his opinion rests on a faulty foundation, there is no truth in them.

I had written extensively on this great deception in a previous forum thread, based on my observations of the evangelical community in recent times:

"The Trojan Horse of LGBT Concepts, and the Lack of Gospel Transformation"
https://img.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic_pdf.php?topic_id=58125&forum=35

May we learn to minister the truth of God in love to all who need them.

If a person feels he/she is a homosexual/lesbian but remains celibate, is he/she sinning, or is the feeling itself sinning?

Heterosexuals can obviously sin sexually but having heterosexual feelings is not sinning.

I cannot think of where the scriptures address the "feeling" aspect; it seems actual behavior is addressed. Of course I might be missing or not remembering some scripture.

If the feeling itself is not sin, it is conceivable how a church would be accepting of people with these feelings. However, acceptance of a lifestyle of acting out on those feelings (i.e. sinning) is an entirely different matter.

Hi TMK,

What do you mean by "homosexual feelings" or "heterosexual feelings"?

Is that the same as heterosexual lust? In which case, Jesus clearly states that it is a sin in Matthew 5:27-32.

Pornography addiction, fornication, adultery etc. - they are but symptoms of an underlying problem with lust. The way of breaking the bondage to homosexual lust is the same as that for heterosexual lust, and the solution is provided in Scriptures such as Romans 8 and Romans 12:2.

//What do you mean by "homosexual feelings" or "heterosexual feelings//

Many homosexuals will say that they knew this about themselves at a young age, even 5 or 6.

There is a difference between "interest" and lusting. A heterosexual knows he is interested in females but that doesn't mean he is lusting every second of the day.

So I guess my question is whether this same thing can be true for homosexuals- can they realize they have an "interest" without sinning?

I realize this is something of a hypothetical question.

Many homosexuals will say that they knew this about themselves at a young age, even 5 or 6.

There is a difference between "interest" and lusting. A heterosexual knows he is interested in females but that doesn't mean he is lusting every second of the day.

So I guess my question is whether this same thing can be true for homosexuals- can they realize they have an "interest" without sinning?

I realize this is something of a hypothetical question.

It is important that we use biblical language here. The Bible speaks of sinful desires i.e. lust, and lust in turn can lead to sinful behaviour. The concept of "sexual orientation" is non-existent in the Bible.

Feelings are misleading - they are not a compass to truth. For example: a lot of the times we feel like sinners, yet God speaks of us as saints in His Word. That identity is assigned to us, and is irrespective of what we do or what we feel.

That perverse sexual desires begin at a young age does not vindicate the "orientation" argument either. Some of those with pedophilic desires would say that their feelings begin at a young age - we have no reason to doubt their account, but do we then speak of a pedophilic orientation?

Of course, some in the secular world have already understood the "logic" consequence of their views, and have begun to argue for acceptance of a "pedophilic orientation". However, many churches are not smart enough to realize the same - they are just following the Pied Piper of the secular world to wherever he might lead.

On a meta-level - I would say that whether something is a sin or not is a less important topic than the truth of the gospel. Jesus came to break the bondage of sin, and gave us power to be children of God. The Christian life is not characterized by struggle, but by victory.

Much of the New Testament is about victory - we can either believe there is victory and press in, or we arrogantly believe that we've experienced all there is to the Christian life. Some find victory from their bondages and others don't - why? I believe it is their trust in God and His Word that made the difference.

Maybe an analogy would help--

Is desiring to get drunk a sin, or is it the act of getting drunk? Desire does not have to lead to sin- right? Being tempted is not sin.

My point is that a person who has homosexual feelings need not act on those feelings.

And I am infinity miles away from trying to create any slippery slope or whatever you want to call it for pedophilia.

I am just addressing the reality of what homosexuals say about what they feel inside. I agree God does not intend for them to have those feelings. I agree the underlying heart issue must be rooted out but in the meantime it would seem celibacy is the proper course of action.

Dear Saints,
I would like to jump in here with the testimony of a man who really speaks into this issue of homosexuality with his experience, origins, being raised in a Christian church, the personal turmoil and torment and the deliverance and salvation through Jesus Christ.

I've mentioned him here before and the powerful ministry God has given him but its worth mentioning over and over. We need to pray for men and women who have been set free of this sin and for their protection for in a hostile culture. Hostile referring to evil agendas as in the LGBT and hostile as in legalistic Christians who believe this is the unforgivable sin. Although now, as we know, many Christians have come to the place of trying to love the sinner without confronting the sin.

Jesus came to set the captives free. All of us!

I hope Greg won't mind me posting this YouTube of Dennis Jernigan's powerful testimony of Jesus Christ setting him free from the sin of homosexuality.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pPPW2zLcjYA

Also, I have purchased copies of the documentary of his testimony called "Sing Over Me" which the Lord has prompted me to give away many times....

May the Lord give you blessed insight as you listen to Dennis' testimony.

In Jesus,
Sis L

Hi TMK,

You have not defined your terms, nor have you used biblical language. You need to think biblically on these matters, and renew your mind accordingly.

The biblical prescription for bondage to lust (heterosexual, homosexual) is not celibacy, it is liberty! - as ministered by the truth of God and His gospel of grace.

The liberty which Jesus brings is total, complete, and is for *everyone*. Part of the faith journey of every Christian is learning to lay hold of that freedom.

I've previously flagged this forum thread up - I've tried to clear up misconceptions on the LGBT issue here from a biblical perspective, and I believe it addresses all your points:

"The Trojan Horse of LGBT Concepts, and the Lack of Gospel Transformation"
https://img.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic_pdf.php?topic_id=58125&forum=35

I await Diane's answer to Frank.

Diane, I think in the light of what you have posted, you owe it to the saints on this forum to clarify your position on this issue.

//Hi TMK,

You have not defined your terms, nor have you used biblical language. You need to think biblically on these matters, and renew your mind accordingly.//

Yes, I have failed miserably in trying to convey what I am getting at.

I don't think I disagree with anything you have written.

RE : /// Jesus poured out his grace on the very ones whom, in that day, the moral police most condemned ”“ the tax collectors and prostitutes. I’m sure Jesus would have added the homosexuals if they were on the radar of these moral police. Maybe there weren't many around Palestine.///

Jesus never condoned the sin of prostitution,
He never defended the sin nor the lifestyle of prostitution.
There is a large difference in showing grace and mercy to individuals whom are caught up in such sin's (that is what we are supposed to do)
from that of defending such sin's as acceptable lifestyles.

The issue in that day was that once people where marked by such sin's there was no redemption offered.
But Jesus brought redemption for such people : not so that they could continue in such sin but that they could be free'd from the guilt thus the power of such sin's.

Hebrews 1:8-9
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

So many today are not filled with the Holy Spirit. They compromise with sin in the name of Love. Jesus loved righteousness and hated all sinful behavior. When we are truly full of the Holy Spirit there will be an increase of love for righteousness as well as a hatred for all iniquity. We will have so much joy and gladness above our companions because God anoints us with this oil of gladness.

When we approve of any known sin that He has clearly stated as sin then we can't have this anointing from God.

This thing that some Christians call love...is nothing but the flesh and God hates it. Anytime we compromise and water down Gods word by not clearly stating what sin is...then we are in the flesh and not being led by the Holy Spirit.

This fleshly self love is not the love of God (it is of Satan) and it is pervading the lives of so many weak Christians today that many are so called loving those who are doing abominable things to the point that they are crossing the line of accepting the abomination in their own lives.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. For God will judge all who approve of sinning against Him.

Blessings in the name of the Lord!