Electric Dance Club Music now in Worship Services

I once attended a church that played Pink Floyd's "Money" while taking an offering, never went back there again

if you google search the article you can read the whole thing. Clicking on the link lets you read only the very first part.

//I once attended a church that played Pink Floyd's "Money" while taking an offering, never went back there again. //

I once heard "Amazing Grace" set to the tune "The House of the Rising Sun." It works-- but regardless it was disturbing.

This issue boils down to taste to a large degree. Many churches in the 70s fought the use of choruses vs only hymns. Then there was a fight over contemporary worship music vs traditional hymns and choruses. There have been fights over the use of guitars and drums. Then electric guitars and drums. Now the fight is over synthesizers and drum machines.

The dire question is: can God be glorified by EDM in worship services?

The floor is open for debate!

TMK I have heard that with amazing grace too, I've also heard it set to "Peaceful Easy Feeling by the Eagles, they keep the chorus from the eagles and sing amazing Grace over the verses. I have to be honest, as a musician I like it but for worship that's mixing two completely different spirits

// as a musician I like it but for worship that's mixing two completely different spirits//

I agree. That's because of the association of the melody with the Eagles tune.

The issue is whether an original melody or music with certain BPMs like EDM is inherently ungodly.

Interesting. I don't know but of related interest is the devils tritone interval which during the middle ages was considered inherently evil.

The Wikipedia article on the tritone is one of the most complex things I have tried to read. Whoa!

I have no problem with drums and guitars if the music is good and uplifting.

2 Sam. 6:5 - Meanwhile, David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the LORD with all kinds of instruments made of fir wood, and with lyres, harps, tambourines, castanets and cymbals.

1 Chron. 15:28 - Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the LORD with shouting, and with sound of the horn, with trumpets, with loud-sounding cymbals, with harps and lyres.

Ps. 150:3-6 - Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre. Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe. Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with resounding cymbals

A good amplifier covers a mutitude of sins. - Art Katz
An electric guitar is a backslidden harp. - Len Ravenhill
;)

As long as the church is sincere in what the're doing to bring in the lost sheep, I don't think God cares how we get them in and saved, just get them in and saved. I'm 65 and I don't personally like churches stuck in the 50's, but that's just me. I like churches that sincerely aggressively go after the lost sheep, God commanded us to do so, but I haven't seen any particular instructions/methods on how, if you have please post them. :-)

I tend to agree Bill, I think.

The worship leaders quoted in the OP explained why they do it which is along the lines you mention. Post modern unsaved teens will not be drawn to the old hymns. Of course there are exceptions but this is generally true.

If church is viewed as outreach it makes more sense. If church is viewed as a meeting place for believers, it makes little sense.

Todd, I agree with every word you said, 100%

Debates like this always make me smile. I took a group of students from my church to Forward Conference this year. It was my first time. Literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in lights and props. The line up was Hillsong United, Bethel Worship, Andy Mineo, and Free Chapel Worship. God did some awesome things there in myself personally and in some of my students. Five years ago I would have thought every person in that arena was going to hell because of the lights and music they were playing. Really??? 13,000 students with their hands lifted worshiping God and tears flowing down their face are going to hell because of a fancy light show or they use the lyrics of a Justin Beiber song to make a point about God??? That literally makes no sense.

Joshua, I love what you said, and if we haven't figured out by now God does things everyday that make no sense, we're in a heap of trouble. :-)

From Parenting, to Bible translations, to clothing, to music, and everything in between : the Church used to influence the culture.

Now the church does not influence the culture, instead it is influenced by the culture, in all of the above and more.

I think one needs to be careful in justifying the use music that appears to bring people to the LORD.

I have a question about this: have they repented of sins? are they pursuing a holy lifestyle? or, was this just an emotional thing?

In the OT we read how God used a donkey to challenge a disobedient prophet but no one that I know of would call the animal holy. I am also aware that God can use all kinds of means to bring people to himself where the vessel itself does not know the LORD.

Seems to me we should be very careful what we justify if it appears to be something that is working. Jesus says in Matthew 7:21-23:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Sandra

Joshua-

You make a good point.

No one knows the end result with all the kids that went. Maybe tons got seriously saved, or had a true experience with God that will lead to deeper consecration. Obviously some went home unchanged. At minimum they seemed to be worshipping in the moment. Maybe a hunger for God was awakened.

But the bottom line is the vast vast majority of those kids would not have attended the conference at all if the worship consisted of acapella hymns. Not that there is anything wrong with acapella hymns, it's just not what kids today relate to.

Some of us old fogeys don't seem to understand that.

I have a fair amount of worship music from the groups you mention particularly Hillsong United. Lyrically many of the songs are very strong.

"Sovereign Hands"

Sovereign hands
Nailed to a humble cross
Scars you bear
Speak of your redeeming love
No wonder I call you the Savior
No wonder I'm singing

God of all the heavens
Now and 'til forever
High above the universe
God of our redemption
God of my surrender
The glory is yours

Sovereign God
Laying down a holy life
Heaven's Son
Willing to be crucified
No wonder I call you the Savior
No wonder I'm singing

Open hands
Given for a sovereign cause
All I have
God will be forever yours
No wonder I call you the Savior
No wonder I'm singing

Holy, holy, holy Lord
Holy, holy, holy Lord

Todd said: But the bottom line is the vast vast majority of those kids would not have attended the conference at all if the worship consisted of acapella hymns. Not that there is anything wrong with acapella hymns, it's just not what kids today relate to.

Some of us old fogeys don't seem to understand that.

As I read the OP I was reminded of something from A.B. Simpson;

"The church has a supernatural support. The ascended Christ with all the resources of His providential government is her Head and Light, and as He sends her forth her all sufficient guarantee is this, "All power is given unto me . . . and, lo, I am with you always." As the bride of the Lamb and the co-heir of all His boundless wealth, what business has she to go about with her hat in her hand begging the petty pittance of their gifts from the brewers, distillers, gamblers and speculators of the earth, selling tickets for strawberry festivals, broom drills and indescribable follies of every kind and vainly competing with the literary lecture bureau or with the cheap theater for platform entertainments to draw the masses, and sometimes stoop even to the promiscuous dance to attract visitors to her Sunday school picnic or help out the deficiency in the preacher's salary. God convict her and God deliver her!

The church has a supernatural destiny. Her calling is to be the glorious church, and, some day, when He presents her to Himself not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, bright with all the glory of the Apocalyptic vision of the New Jerusalem, brightest of all with the reflected light and beauty of her Bridegroom and her Head, she will be the wonder of the universe; and they shall come from every star to gaze upon her while the attendant angels shall say, "Come hither, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife."

-excerpted from Present Truths or the Supernatural by A.B. Simpson

I do understand the hesitancy because EDM is indeed played at raves that are decidedly ungodly including rampant drug use and sexual activity. There is no disputing that. The question is whether, because of that, this type of music is therefore "disqualified" from use in a Christian context.

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ, that I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. ***I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some***. Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

On the other side of the coin, there is the danger of being "like to whitewashed sepulchres, which outwardly indeed do appear beautiful, and within are full of bones of dead men, and of all uncleanness” (Matt. 23:27 YLT).

I hesitate to judge. Those singing praises to God with drums and guitars may be true children of God.

"It happened when the ark of the covenant of the LORD came to the city of David, that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and celebrating; and she despised him in her heart” (1 Chr. 15:29 NASB).
"Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death” (2 Sam. 6:23 KJV).

And God does work mightily in the darkest place.

"Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" (John 1:47).
"THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SITTING IN DARKNESS SAW A GREAT LIGHT, AND THOSE WHO WERE SITTING IN THE LAND AND SHADOW OF DEATH, UPON THEM A LIGHT DAWNED" (Matt. 4:16 NASB).

I don’t see how our ranting can change any heart.

"Thy power and Thine alone,
Can change the leper's spots
and melt the heart of stone.”

There is the more excellent path of intercessory prayer for God to mightily save the lost.

"I searched for a man among them who would build up the wall and stand in the gap before Me for the land, so that I would not destroy it; but I found no one” (Ezek. 22:30).

"God did some awesome things there in myself personally and in some of my students...13,000 students with their hands lifted worshiping God and tears flowing down their face..."

Sounds wonderful!

Q. What did they do the following month...and what are they doing now?

Savannah asked: Q. What did they do the following month...and what are they doing now?

Savannah, they're probably out carrying the gospel all over the world, unlike us, sitting here every day posting on SI.

I love this website and all of you but shame on you, you are all a bunch of judgmental Christians! If you do not like EDM played at a church, then don't go to that church.

Gamaliel's Advice: "And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." ~ Acts 5:38-39

Also there is a church in Ohio north of Dayton called The First Heavy Metal Church of Christ and guess what they listen to?? lol I do not appreciate heavy metal but everyone who goes there does. And they actually dared to have church in bar for the first 2 or 3 years (Sunday's at 1:00 pm when it was closed), until they could save us to buy something.

Search the following words for The Today's Show interview with them...

"first heavy metal church of christ today show"

God bless,
Lisa

PS: Has any of this site read the book Bruchko? When he went to South America, the Lord sent him down there not to make the natives like Americans, walking around in white shirts and dress pants but to make them like Christ and he dressed like they did. THAT is a huge difference. That book is awesome if you want to read it and expand your faith.

To quote a well known song, since music is part of the issue;

"You may be right,but you may be wrong..."

And you really should speak for yourself! If that is all you do, I am sorry for you. I myself am about my Father's business. I don't spend all my time on SI.

May God revive His people!

Please check out the "Behold Your God" DVD study.

Again, may God revive us again!

savannah.....Thanks for your edifying words to me and to this thread, I'm sure you were going about your fathers business when you posted your thoughts here.

I could be off on the exact numbers but I believe over the last 25 years Doritos has changed the label on the bag 3 times. Why? Because the label became outdated and didn't appeal to people. While the label changed the product people were getting remained the same. This could be a poor analogy but I believe as our culture changes we have to change with it. In my town their are churches everywhere. I believe around 30 in the small county I live in. maybe 5 have an attendance over 30. When we refuse to change it makes us ineffective and not relevant. Like I said in the previous post I myself use to think that all of this was wrong and we are allowing the "world" into the church. But I have come to the conclusion that if we really want to follow in the footsteps of Jesus we need to quit making our own little christian sub culture. "The world" makes music so we make Christian music. Facebook so we make Faithbook. YouTube so we make GodTube. EHarmony so we make Christian Mingle. We are IN the world but not of it. We can't separate ourselves from "the world" like they have some sort of contagious disease that we don't want to catch. We have to go into the world doing whatever it takes to reach them like they have a deadly disease that we have the cure for.

Anytime! Glad to know that you appreciate it.

Now go, and... "Behold Your God", and I'll do the same.

Josh wrote: "We can't separate ourselves from "the world" like they have some sort of contagious disease that we don't want to catch. We have to go into the world doing whatever it takes to reach them like they have a deadly disease that we have the cure for."

And the very sad thing is that the world and not the church has all the great innovative ideas (and a lot of the talent) so the church is relegated to copying. It's a shame but there it is. It's pretty embarrassing actually. And when a church does innovate they get drilled by Pharisees.

Again this is a matter of taste. My wife and I are dissatisfied at the church we attend because of some of their marketing methods and the music is painfully loud ( and I like loud music). But I would never bad mouth what they are doing because the church is growing by leaps and bounds and the gospel is preached. It's just personal preference.

Exactly Todd! I think part of the reason we have to copy is because people are afraid of the out lash they will get from the church if they try anything new. You have such a precious spirit that many do not. We cannot elevate our personal preference. Its all about Him and them. Him being God and them being those outside of the church.

Todd, sad that you think that your personal preference in music, etc means choosing another church.

Is that really how the church is supposed to be? Pick and mix.

God help us in these days, we have lost our way if that is how the church thinks it should function! If anyone is offended because the music is too loud or geared to a particular culture, then the church / leaders have failed and need to repent and consider others more than themselves. Maybe you should tell them why you are leaving, don't you owe them that? They need to realise that they are probably putting off as many as they think they are winning, but they probably don't care!

It's not the music, the dress, the atmosphere, etc

The Church needs to maintain the difference between the holy and profane. If the world starts dancing and cutting them selves we don't have to follow. There is still a need to know who you worship.

Isaiah 24 wrote about a group of people who were praising and singing God and happiness abounding and all of a sudden they realize they are undone. Unless one's life is changed by the Spirit, singing and music are just entertainment.

Does talent really matter with God? Does he want the best musicians and singers regardless? The world offers what seems so right, i.e. the tree of good and evil. Don't be taken in.

Great post Sherri!

Paul Washer's message to youth in 2002. Was he right? Is it even more relevant now? Have we be deluded so much we have forgotten this rebuke?

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonssource&sermonID=52906154239

Sadly, most have a similar perspective in regard to the worship of God and evangelism, as they do of going to the restaurant and approaching the buffet.

It's all about their pallet and personal tastes. The Holy Throne of His Majesty has no place in their hearts, minds, or lives.

When a body becomes a business, nothing is pure.

Take heed not only what you hear but how!

Heydave posted a reminder, but how few will heed!

Even here on SI many are going with the flow.

But, remember...only dead fish go with the flow!

Yes savannah God only enjoys organs with huge pipes.

churches singing only hymns with primitive music are turning the United States upside down. Youth are rushing headlong into them and getting saved by the thousands.

The proof is in the pudding!

Just read TMK's posts. Thousands upon thousands of them,

Personally, I like chocolate!

TMK.....churches singing only hymns with primitive music are turning the United States upside down.

Some folks have the attitude/opinion, all the real pastors and music of yesterday are long gone, that no other pastors or music will ever take their place. Yeah, my guess God has a different opinion and plans, unless he's just stopped working altogether and has just sat down.

right on Bill.

If I recall Jesus freaked out the pharisees because he upset their status quo and threatened their position of power.

I guess it might be wise to keep that in mind when we freak out because someone is upsetting our status quo.

If time is very short before the Lord returns, as many folks here believe, it would seem that we would welcome any means possible that is effective in reaching as many unsaved persons as quickly as possible. Obviously more than one method must be used to reach this goal.

All hands on deck.

TMK....If time is very short before the Lord returns, as many folks here believe, it would seem that we would welcome any means possible that is effective in reaching as many unsaved persons as quickly as possible.

Music has a powerful effect on the human soul. Satan was the worship conductor in heaven before he fell.

There is soulish music that can move man to tears that is totally devoid of God's spirit.

I do believe we should use contemporary music. We can use all those toolboxes that music offers, but there are things that cross the line.

Sing to the Lord a new song the psalmist encourages us.

The difference is that, music should facilitate worship, not substitute it.

Why should we sell out to this sensually and loaded, hypnotic mind numbing music ? It is out of place when singers dressed in tight clothing sound as if they are sexually aroused.

Only the sword of the Spirit can discern between the soulish and the spiritual Heb 4:12.

Moses climbed the mountain to meet God.
The people were down below and started to offer peace and burned offerings and sung, than it got out of hand!

When numbing rock music would usher in the presence of God, I am sure Jesus would have told us.

There is a soulish counterfeit for worship in spirit and truth.

narrowpath, very well put. You have clearly expressed what is the real issue. Some try sarcastically to make it an issue of either 'modern' pop culture music or 18 century organ music. It is not that at all. I like new songs as much as older ones if they are 'spiritual' and not apeing the world and appealing to the soul and flesh.

The issue is that only a 'spiritual man can discern spiritual things'. A church that operates in the flesh has only the resources of the flesh to appeal to the soul and flesh of seekers. Therefore the church will become more and more ungodly.

I'm getting to the point of being tiered of seeing so much nonsense being posted on SI on various subjects. There seems to be no spiritual understanding of God and His word. Too many posts come from the influence of 'Has God said?' and we know where that comes from.

We condemn EDM but……have we been angry with a brother or a sister? Hurt someone with an unkind word?

There are no categories of sin.

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all” (James 2:10).

And this is just as grave:

"You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ ***** will be liable to the hell of fire *****” (Matt. 5:22-23).

The point is: Are we OURSELVES holy as God is holy?

Hi Dave,

thanks for you reply. Some will say: Do not judge, lest you be judged.

1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Judging things does not mean that I am judgemental, but rather discerning.

Thank God there are some Christian songwriters that produce contemporary God honoring music that fits the taste of the people today without subscribing to soul-manipultating expressions.

John Wesley and Isaac Newton made songs to the tunes of contemporary music sung in pubs.

BTW, I wonder if you know Gateway Christian Fellowship in Yateley, Hants?

God Bless
P

We are NOT called to pull out the tares.

Matt. 13:24-30 -- Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ***** ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest *****; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Only God knows who the tares are.

"God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart” (1 Sam. 16:7).

THIS is our Great Commission:

"And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation” (Mark 16:15).

"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come” (Matt. 24:14).

//Satan was the worship conductor in heaven before he fell.//

An exceedingly tenuous statement if you are relying on the scripture I think you are relying on.

So it seems that some contemporary music style is ok for use in church but not others. Folk is ok (70s Christian choruses) Pop is ok (90s contemporary Christian music). Rap is ok (depending on lyrics). But EDM is definitely taboo. I wonder what will be taboo in 10 years.

Again this is a matter of taste and nothing more.

Yes I know of Gateway Fellowship in Yately and also know the Pastor there. Although in Hampshire it's not that close to where I am. Did you attend there before you moved to Germany?

Todd, either you don't understand the issue or you are deliberately clouding the issue. I hope it's not the latter.

It is not a matter of music styles or genre. The issue is that the music in worship should just be a vehicle for and subservient to the words we use to worship in Spirit and Truth. Any music (be that classical, folk or EDM) that of itself is the dominant, motivating factor in worship is, in my opinion, wrong. EDM, by it's own description is about the music and dance, not words.

The Psalms are worship, even without music. We put music to them to enable communal / congregational expression to the words we want to use to worship. If we lift up the music so it distracts us from the true worship we are not worshiping God but worshiping the 'worship', i.e the music and the emotional effect it produces in us.

This area of worship in the modern church is a 'whole can of worms' once you open it up. Worship groups, worship leaders, so called Christian music industry, etc is not a NT Christian concept. They have done much damage to the thinking of what a church is. And most of this has come out of the good old USA.

Hi Dave,

yes, I used to worship there from 2010 - 2014.

So you know Tom, too ?

"So you know Tom, too ?"

Yes, but have not seen him for a number of years. I used to be part of SORCF.

Yes, I truly believe this is an opinion thread, not scriptural. some people speak in tongue's in church, how many here know what they're saying? My guess is many against this type of music hasn't even given it a listen, because if it's loud and radical, it couldn't possibly be good in church. I respect everyone's "opinions" but just because you can't appreciate this music, doesn't make it wrong. I can't appreciate the old school church music anymore like I once did, and I'm 65, I personally like a lot of the newer tunes. It's all about the lyrics, in my world, if it's edifying and bringing in the lost sheep, it good. This is probably one of those threads where we should just agree, to disagree and move on, but some won't, they will have to bleed to death here, to get their point across. I've made my last point, so I'm moving on. :-)

NP-

I get where you are coming from, which raises another interesting question-

Can instrumental music alone (no lyrics) be "worship?"

You probably can guess my answer, but I am curious what others think.

Amen Sherri. Well stated.

by narrowpath
...Satan was the worship conductor in heaven before he fell.

God bless,
Lisa

by BranchinVINE
We condemn EDM but……have we been angry with a brother or a sister? Hurt someone with an unkind word?

There are no categories of sin.

The point is: Are we OURSELVES holy as God is holy?

by Sherri
David Wilkerson made a quote that has been on my heart all week.....

"You win over people just like you win over a dog. You see a dog passing down the street with an old bone in his mouth. You don't grab the bone from him and tell him it's not good for him. He'll growl at you. It's the only thing he has. But you throw a big fat lamb chop in front of him, and he's going to drop that bone and pick up the lamb chop, his tail wagging to beat the band. And you've got a friend. Instead of going around grabbing bones from people... I'm going to throw them some lamb chops. Something with real meat and life in it. I'm going to tell them about New Beginnings.”

@Lysa: Eze 28:13
There were musical instruments build into Satan. These must have been for the purpose of worship before the fall.

@Sherri: I think you are mixing up EDM use in church and outside the church.

I very much support what you say about those outside. But using EDM in church is an entirely different thing.

@ BranchinVINE |

"We are NOT called to pull out the tares." Granted, but this analogy is in context to people who count themselves to God's people and are not.

@TMK - intstrumental music worship? Absolutely, there were so called "Higgaions" in the psalms which were most likely instrumental interludes between sung verses.

David played his harp to alleviate Saul's soul torment. It is not mentioned that he sung at those occasions.

Again, these instrumental parts are not the thing in itself but accompanied and enriched worship.

As HeyDave pointed out, I believe the fundamental difference is if I am really worshiping God or pursuing an "emotional high"

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth.

I cannot imagine God being pleased with sensual or aggressive music that is just so opposite to His character - regardless what genre it is.

Here is another verse that can help us to evaluate worship music:

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

The Spirit of God in a believer ministers these things to us.

When the world freaks out at EDM or rock music, that is their substitute for worship. At least they do not make any claims towards worshiping God.

The problem arises when the church imitates this and calls it worship when it is just whipping up emotions.

//The problem arises when the church imitates this and calls it worship when it is just whipping up emotions.//

But how can you possibly know that this is the case? When Joshua said he saw kids worshiping with tears running down their faces, how can you possibly say it was only emotion? The most you can say is that it may have been only emotion, but if it was true worship are you not slandering the HS?

And do you really think satan had musical instruments imbedded in his "body?"

ADD: when I worship sometimes tears run down my face. Is that only emotion, or is it the HS?

by narrowpath
@Lysa: Eze 28:13
There were musical instruments build into Satan. These must have been for the purpose of worship before the fall.

God bless,
Lisa

In the poetic language of Ezekiel (which never mentions Satan), the king of Tyre is said to have been a cherub in the garden of Eden (28:13-14). ***But then, in the poetic language of the same prophet, the Assyrian is said to have been a tree in the garden of Eden (31:3, 9)! **** Why take one passage more literally than the other?

A few verses earlier than the disputed passage (v.2), the ruler of Tyre is specifically said to be a "man" (not an angel). The statements that the king of Tyre is "full of wisdom," "perfect in beauty" and "perfect in all thy ways" are hyperboles, which have been used earlier in the book about the city of Tyre itself (27:3, 28:3). This "king of Tyre" was corrupted by "trading" or "merchandise" (v.16), a distinctive of the city of Tyre, but hardly fitting any reasonable scenario of the activities of an unfallen angel in heaven.

by TMK on 2017/7/19 21:39:35

In the poetic language of Ezekiel (which never mentions Satan), the king of Tyre is said to have been a cherub in the garden of Eden (28:13-14). ***But then, in the poetic language of the same prophet, the Assyrian is said to have been a tree in the garden of Eden (31:3, 9)! **** Why take one passage more literally than the other?

A few verses earlier than the disputed passage (v.2), the ruler of Tyre is specifically said to be a "man" (not an angel). The statements that the king of Tyre is "full of wisdom," "perfect in beauty" and "perfect in all thy ways" are hyperboles, which have been used earlier in the book about the city of Tyre itself (27:3, 28:3). This "king of Tyre" was corrupted by "trading" or "merchandise" (v.16), a distinctive of the city of Tyre, but hardly fitting any reasonable scenario of the activities of an unfallen angel in heaven.]

The lines between human and angel get a bit blurred in this whole passage. In verse 14 this being is certainly characterized as angelic:

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

[ADD: when I worship sometimes tears run down my face. Is that only emotion, or is it the HS?]

Todd, you are twisting my words. I have not stated that all emotion is counterfeit.

We are created as beings with body and soul. In the realm of the soul is mind, will and emotion.

Emotion in worship is absolutely legitimate.
Worship involves body, mind, will and emotion.

The problem is, when the worship is not in Spirit and truth.

I can get moved to tears by puppy and kitten stories, too, but it is not by the Spirit of God.

Tears are not a sure sign of God's working, nor does it prove mere emotionalism.

There are several incidences in the bible where there was some type of worship but not in truth:

1. Sam 4:5 And when the ark of the covenant of the Lord came into the camp, all Israel shouted with a great shout, so that the earth rang again.

There was real excitement for God, but a devastating defeat in the end.

The same happened to David's group when the put the arc on a new cart.

We all know the story of the golden calf.

Aarons sons died pretending to perform a priestly service but did not to really worship God but in order to get thrill of it. Aaron was even forbidden to mourn them! What does this teach us?

All this had the appearance of true worship but severely lacked one thing: Reverence for God.

Why are these stories in the bible? Just to scare us?

These alarming stories are given to us for a reason.

These stories are given to later generation as a stern warning. There were real causalities. People paid with their lives for doing the wrong thing. Today we are facing exactly the same thing.

Do you think God changed into a nicer and more accommodating God in the New Testament?

Should not we better pay attention to it lest there are causalities among us, too.

Hi All,
This is a subject that can be confusing and is close to my heart.
For instance 130bpm can sound fast or slow Abba's The Winner Takes It All for instance is 128bpm but is slow and balladic.
Abba's Dancing Queen is disco but is only 105 bpm and sounds and feels fast.For the most part in my opinion music is Amoral.Its just symbols on a page.For instance if the aforementioned "House of the rising sun" never had previous lyrics and was played with a string quartet and had Christian lyrics it would be great.Its the fact that it had previous lyrics that disqualifies it.Take the Irish hymn "Be Thou My Vision" The words and music were not written anywhere near the same time and we dont know was the composer of the music(a piece called slane) to the song Christian or not.
All music these days are effected by Computer programmes one way or the other but Electric Dance Music has a problem for worship insomuch as usually it has no real discernable melody and its made for dancing most probably wildly.Some great music for worship can be created by computers.So they are not the problem.
We need to then also in my opinion diffrentiate the branches of Christian music .Worship music is Christian music for the Christian and unfortunately their lies a problem.Today we have Christians who think that if we make our worship music worldly enough the world will listen but all they achieve is making worldly music for the Christian.The world is not interested for the most part in worship music at all.Why would they be?
We can however have another branch of Christian music for the world which brings a message.
The next thing I am going to say is not meant to be offensive but factual.The world has more musicians,more experts in production and more singers than the Church and because of that produce usually higher quality music than we do.We however have a major advantage over the world which is we have the "Holy Spirit" to inspire our music.We need to get him involved,we really do.If create inspired music we will be able to put a great message to that sound and influence non Christians.And yes because it will be clearly not worship music EDM could be involved if it is done tastefully .
On a personal note I got pretty disillusioned with a lot of worship music because of the poor quality of the melodies and hope they get better urs staff

Soooo...Greg! You did a post and run here!

Now, can you please tell us the purpose of posting this.

What position do you take regarding this?

We'd like to know.

Staff- good post. Thanks for your perspective.

NP- we are probably more on the same page than you may think- at least in regard to the music part. Definitely not the Ezekiel 28 being about satan part :)

This is very sad, when will the church learn? EDM is meant to get people moving around to the beat, to let themselves go and just move. God is to be worshipped with the whole man, we are never to check our minds at the door and move around at the impulse of loud, fast music.

If this is what it takes to get youth into the church then there is something seriously wrong. You don't draw them in with the entertainment and then deliver the message, it is a practice the church has been trying for years and it is failing.

In Christ,

"1. Sam 4:5 And when the ark of the covenant of the Lord came into the camp, all Israel shouted with a great shout, so that the earth rang again.
"There was real excitement for God, but a devastating defeat in the end.
"The same happened to David's group when the put the arc on a new cart.”

BUT note also:

1 Chr. 15:14-15 ”“- So the priests and the Levites consecrated themselves to bring up the ark of the LORD God of Israel. The sons of the Levites carried the ark of God on their shoulders with the poles thereon, as Moses had commanded according to the word of the LORD.

1 Chron. 15:16 -- Then David spoke to the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their relatives the singers, with instruments of music, harps, lyres, loud-sounding cymbals, to raise sounds of joy.

1 Chron. 15:28 -- Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the LORD with shouting, and with sound of the horn, with trumpets, with loud-sounding cymbals, with harps and lyres.

Point is:
It is NOT the loud music that was the problem.

The gospel is a gospel of joy and it is fitting to "raise sounds of joy”. I would think that those "loud-sounding” cymbals were quite deafening.

Edit to add:
Of course we must all be like David, "a man after His own heart" (1 Sam. 13:14).

Amen, Sherri.

Staff,

You make some good points and I like your insight.

TMK, you say you agree with staff's post, but he just said what NP and I have been saying, that EDM and similar music is not for worship in the church, it is for worldly dancing (probably wildly). You have been arguing against this!

This type of music may as others have said have a place to be used in some kind of outreach (not for worship in church), but that is a different subject.

I am not arguing *for* EDM in church worship setting(in fact this is one of the reasons my wife and I recently left a church we had been attending and quite involved in). I am just not arguing *against* it, because I do not believe it is beyond God's ability to use this if He deems necessary.

Plus, I don't think music with 132 BPMs is sinful on that basis alone.

Quote Staff: "On a personal note I got pretty disillusioned with a lot of worship music because of the poor quality of the melodies and hope they get better urs staff"

I was born again in the 80's and my experience of music in church (SA's first real mega church) was wonderful as the music was usually anointed, Spirit filled and the lyrics would be directed to God or Jesus personally, not just saying something about Him.(I still worship God in my own time with the songs of that time, like: Jesus we enthrone You, I worship You Almighty God, Turn your eyes upon Jesus...and many others) Many times we were overwhelmed by the sense of God's presence and worshipped on our faces before Him, in the Spirit.

How much of this do we really experience today, even with all the beautiful sounding songs and modern music?
I often stand in church, untouched by the music and feeling detached from any true sense of worship, and most of the congregation are onlookers, not participators.

The real question is: What has happened to worship?
Has it been replaced by entertainment? Is this simply a sign of the lack of true spiritual health in our churches?

Whatever style of music we use, if people cannot participate in a simple, easy way, turning their hearts and minds to focus on the Lord, and not being distracted by the antics of the worship band but truly being immersed in His presence and filled by His Spirit, then it is utter folly and a waste of time.

Blessings,

//The real question is: what has happened to worship? Has it been replaced by entertainment? Is this simply a sign of the lack of true spiritual health in our churches?//

In my experience an experience (in church) of true worship is sacrificed to the idol of "the program." You can only do a tightly practiced 3 songs because there is another service starting at 11:00. The HS must not interfere with the schedule.

That sounds cynical but I believe it is very widely true in most churches.

On the flip side, the very best corporate worship I have experienced has been in churches involved in some of the red flag charismatic nonsense. They gave worship the time it deserved and it was great, but there were all these other issues.

Imagine- a church devoted to true worship w/o charismatic nonsense or being beholden to a program- what a concept!

Brother Greg wrote; "We are living in dark times and the light has gone out just as in the dark ages of the past. The worship of God has been lost and we are worshipping a god of our own imagination. When services are created for quick convience of obliation to God it is really not a sacrifice but a setup for our own entertainment and benefit."

Yes dear brother this is also my observation/experience... and not only in worship but often a "God of our imagination" is preached in place of the one true God, our resurrected King. It's like people can't handle the "God of the Bible" so they make one up and since theirs has no real power they stick a "Jesus sticker" on it to fool people.... which (for me) parallels the EDM issue, it's as if people believe that you can take something of the world, not born of God, stick a Jesus sticker on it- call it sanctified and imagine God is somehow pleased 😳 It's the delusional days in which we walk.
Let those who intercede not grow weary but continue to hold fast to the truth~

Yes Greg, you are correct.
What is sad is that even on this forum (a website for revival!) there are three recent threads where these things are endorsed, Homosexuality accepted, profane worldly worship encouraged and a denying of the bible as the word of God.

What times we do live in. "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour".

Dave....What is sad is that even on this forum (a website for revival!) there are three recent threads where these things are endorsed, Homosexuality accepted, profane worldly worship encouraged and a denying of the bible as the word of God.

Hi Brothers and Sisters,
I'm new to the forum and don't know if I'm posting this right, but I thought I'd chime in on this topic.

While working construction a few years back, I developed a friendship with a young man. He was a great worker, but had a lot of issues. He was living with his girlfriend, hooked on porn, hooked on prescription drugs, and a number of other issues common to sinners. He was agnostic, but always willing to hear me out when I witnessed to him. His lust habit started to get out of hand and his girlfriend threatened to leave him if he didn't talk to the "religious nut" (me) at work. To make a long story short, he surrendered his life to the Lord (we used a bundle of lumber as a makeshift altar) after work one day. He really repented and the glory of God fell on him in a special way. On his way home from work (he told me this the next day) he took out the punk-rock CD and broke it. He told me that the music troubled his spirit. This was a guy who had been in a punk-rock band and the whole bit. When my friend surrendered his life to the Lord he surrendered everything. He became soft and pliable. He looked into Christian punk, but said it just "didn't feel right."
I agree that we shouldn't "enshrine" a particular style of music. But, sometimes there is spirit behind types of music. I don't know much about the EDM, but there is a "chaos" inherent in punk rock. God is not the author of chaos and confusion. In my understanding, trying to airbrush good words on a worldly song is a bad way to go. Also, when a man has truly cast off the old man, he's not looking to bring his old ways into the church. He wants something different.
When my friend was saved, he expected everything in his life to change- and it did!

God bless you.

Brother BJ, you described the kind of folk God is looking for, and can use the greatest in my opinion. Of course he can use anyone, even the unsaved and the not churched, and maybe even some of us filthy rags. :-) I mean when I read when he says his ways and thoughts are not as ours, he's unlimited to who and what he will use, and what he can do, right? That should get some stone faced Christians looking down their noses at me. :-)

Yes sir!
He ended up leading another worker on the jobsite to the Lord within a couple of months. He ended up being way more i outspoken for the Lord than I ever was on that homebuild.

Good thoughts BJ.

You wrote: "In my understanding, trying to airbrush good words on a worldly song is a bad way to go."

I think you meant "worldly melody" or "tune".

The only problem is where to draw the line. For example, I like Michael w Smith's "worship" and "worship again" albums. But if you stop and think, the melodies to songs like "Forever" and "open the eyes of my heart" could easily be melodies to a pop song you might hear on top 40 radio. Arguably Smith (or whoever wrote them) used pop type melodies for those worship songs.

Now, I agree that when it comes to things like heavy metal or punk or EDM things do get dicier because of the nature of the beat.

We all know music can affect emotions. Classical music can be very stirring. Erik Satie's Gymnopedie #1 is beautifully melancholic. Some EDM can be very uplifting- there is even a genre called "uplifting trance."

What if an artist wanted to create a soaring anthem to the glory of the Creator using an EDM format? I just can't 100% condemn that possibility.

Good point TMK.

It is dangerous to make a "law." Better to trust the Spirit's discernment on a case by case basis. I do know that it is never a good idea to try to appeal to the flesh, under the guise of reaching the lost. Flesh gives birth to more flesh-no matter how you dress it up! That kind of thing drove me crazy back in my years as a youth minister!

God help us to be wise as serpents, innocent as doves.

I certainly agree, and like i said earlier my wife and I just made the very hard decision to leave a church with people we loved because of this "fleshly appeal" under the guise of getting people into the doors, both via very loud club style music (at least the 1st song) and via worldly marketing methods. But, because people are coming through the doors and people are getting saved and baptized, I won't bad mouth the church because ultimately it was a matter of taste. But for us it was getting to the point where we were being critical of the church (but not publicly). It's hard to worship when something is grinding your craw.

2 Cor. 4:6 -- For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

There is a good old song:

We have a Story to Tell to the Nations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEGLJldNjRM

Edit to add:

Send the Light
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLaob2knjJY

Hi Sherri,

Would love to see the Revival Hymn Video if you can find it.

"Yes, they are sinners and they love their sin!! But, won't the God of all the earth do justly? ***** I didn't send you over here for them, I sent you for Me. Don't I deserve the reward of my suffering? *****”

Amen, Sherri.

The Lord Jesus certainly is entitled to the full reward of His suffering.

John 1:29 - Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of ***** the world! *****
1 John 2:2 - He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of ***** the whole world *****.

The Lord Jesus came to save SINNERS!

Mark 2:17 -- Jesus said to them, ***** "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." *****

THIS is the great authority that the Lord gives to the people He sends out:

Matt. 28:17-20 -- And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore........ I am with you always, even to the end of the age

THIS is the mighty power of God by which the worst sinners will be saved:

Paul was worst of all sinners (1 Tim. 1:15).

Acts 1:3-4 -- ……suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"

And Paul was instantly changed and became the man who said, "But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ” (Phil. 3:7-8).

Dan. 6:27 - He delivers and rescues and performs signs and wonders In heaven and on earth…..

THESE are the numbers that will be saved:

Rev. 7:9 -- After these things I looked, and behold, ***** a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues *****, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands…..

THOUGHT:

John 20:21 -- as the Father has sent Me, I also send you

John 3:16-17 -- For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
***** For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him *****.

So, accordingly, God has not sent us into the world to judge the world
***** but that the world might be saved through Christ *****.

Do we have the love of God in our hearts that moves us to desire to save all the sinners in the world as God does?

ANOTHER THOUGHT:

Matt. 25:41-46 -- 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Jesus is our Bread of Life, our Robe of Righteousness, our Redemption and Sanctification, the Truth that sets us free, our All in all. Are we giving Jesus to the stranger, the naked, the sick and the prisoners? Or, are we mercilessly beating them for not delivering the quota of bricks to be made without straw (Ex. 5)?

James 2:13 -- For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all (2 Cor.13:14).

The Revival Hymn: https://youtu.be/vuo-jeXW6xI

Sister Sherri, that portion you quoted is my fav preacher- Paris Reidhead and it's actually from (arguably the best) sermon "Ten shekels and a shirt"
Hope you get a chance to listen to it in its entirety:)

Sister Jade,
Here's the "revival hymn" containing that excerpt which you will find round 19 min mark...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ec5dJHtMTSg