Did Adam lose the Holy Spirit?

Luke 3:38 Which was of Enos, which was of Seth,which was of Adam, which was of God.1 Peter 115 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (Leviticus 20:7)Here are my questions. From the Bible, is it possible to say that when Adam fell the Holy Spirit departed from him? Or, was his purity before sin entered him, one of simple human sinlessness - not one of 'holiness' in the same way as believers are now imputed through the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

To take your question back a bit, was he ever filled with the Spirit?This is another way to frame the meaning of my questions.

Dorcas, I guess by your question, you think that Adam did at one time have the Spirit of God abiding on him?I have always seen the ministry of the Spirit in the Old Testament as being different than His ministry today.Yes I have an opinion but, I was not planning on sharing it right at the beginning of the thread. :-PWhat do you think? And, is there a reason you suggest the Holy Spirit may have been 'abiding on' Adam?

I must admit that I think that there was conviction of the Spirit of God when Adam sinned.Would he have been able to sin, if he had been full of the Holy Spirit?

ZekeO,Good thinking and expounding!InTheLight said:God put him in the garden so that his innocence might be transformed into moral character by a series of choices. It was to be a development from the natural to the spiritual. Were not the natural and the spiritual perfectly balanced in Adam, already?

Zekeo...very good.I just resently saw the 'first sin from Man' as 'Ignorance was bliss'. And you kinda helped me understand it better, Being a CHILD!!! Oh how are we called to have a CHILD LIKE FAITH!! back to the principles!! i love it!!

The Bible tells us that man consists of body, soul & spirit. The body is the flesh, the “tent” as Paul called it. The Soul consists of the ego, the will, the emotions, the psyche & the mind. The Spirit consists of the “divine nature” and is somehow associated and a part of the heart. (when we are saved we receive a new heart and a new spirit)In the Garden God told Adam that if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil that he would surely die. (Gen 2:17). We all know that Adam and Eve did not physically die for a very, very long time after eating the apple. So, what was God referring to? It was Spiritual death, and it was immediate. The Spirit that Adam & Eve once had, that allowed them communion with God, was severed and they were driven from the Garden. So, the first Adam lost the Spirit, and all others after him have been born without it as well, lost and unregenerate.The Bible tells us that God will provide us with a new heart and a new Spirit: 1) Ezekiel 18:30-31 “Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?Ezekiel 36:25-28 “25. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be My people, and I will be your God.”Christ tells us that we must worship God in Spirit and truth:John 4:23-24 “23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.24.\tGod is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”So Christ, the second Adam, by His death, blood and resurrection has created a way to supernaturally create a new heart & a new spirit in all those that believe on Him. At the same time He has provided a way for His laws to be written in our hearts, as well as giving each believer a comforter, the Holy Spirit (part of the Godhead) to live in our hearts.Aren’t we the luckiest people that have ever been given breath?God bless,Stever

Hi Stever, I hope you will think through carefully, some of the objections I raise to your thesis, below.It was Spiritual death, and it was immediate. The Spirit that Adam & Eve once had, that allowed them communion with God, was severed and they were driven from the Garden.... So, the first Adam lost the Spirit, and all others after him have been born without it as well, lost and unregenerate.I have heard this said before, but I don't agree, for the very reason that receiving the Holy Spirit (which I believe is the Spirit to which you refer with a capital 'S') brings into residence in the mind and body, the laws of God which pertain to eternal life, this time, like His. Adam would have had the knowledge of good and evil which is implicit in a knowledge of 'the law', if he had had the Holy Spirit.At the same time He has provided a way for His laws to be written in our hearts, as well as giving each believer a comforter, the Holy Spirit (part of the Godhead) to live in our hearts.Yes, but... I believe the spiritual death to which your refer was the death of the human spirit of Adam, which was what had given eternal life to the dust from which he was formed. Spiritual death was the loss of an eternity with God.Yes, at new birth a person is given a new spirit (small 's'), to give 'life' to his body and soul, and the Holy Spirit, to deal with the need for victory over sin. They are both necessary for salvation to 'work' and be workable. It is this dynamic combination which will carry a person through the rest of earthly life, and, into and through eternity, even though the physical properities of our bodies (the dust into which God breathed in the garden of Eden, which we inherited as descendants of Adam) will be changed through death and the resurrection of the body therafter.

Hi philologos,You said I think an assumption is being made that 'immortality' is the same as 'eternal life'. Certainly Adam would not have died but then neither would any of the animals or the trees; did they have 'eternal life' too?It occurs to me that the reason for the expulsion from the garden of Eden was to prevent Adam and Eve in their state of knowing good and evil, in that condition, eating of the Tree of Life and living forever. Do you mean that Adam had had immortality but not eternal life before the Fall?

Dorcas, I have been thinking about your post. I really think Adam & Eve contained the Holy Spirit when God created them:Genesis 2:7 " 7. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.".....................26. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth........... 27. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.........................31. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.Adam had direct communication with God, which tells me that he had the Holy Spirit. The only way that any of us today can have communion with God is if we have the Holy SpiritThis same Spirit is what provides us with communion with God, with direct access to the Throne Room of Heaven. (Hebrews 4:16 " 16. So let us come boldly to the very throne of God and stay there to receive his mercy and to find grace to help us in our times of need.")However, once sin was entered into, Adams Spirit was severed, the same way ours was before we were saved. I read the other day the obituary of an Atheist. His next of kin indicated that he read and studied the Bible every day. The problem is, without the Holy Spirit he could not understand what he was reading, and thus he died a non-believing atheist.If we look at the chain of events of what happened in the Garden of Eden, I think we can see exactly what happened and why:Adam was not deceived by Satan, but willingly and knowingly broke God's Law. Eve was deceived by Satan, and ate of the apple, breaking God's law.God arrives on the scene, and Adam and Eve are hiding? They had been in complete communion with God, by a direct link, and now they think they can hide from God?God delivers the Gospel to Adam and Eve, with Satan in attendance: Genesis 3:15" 15. And I will put enmity between thee (Satan) and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Women do not have seed, men have seed. God is telling them that a virgin will bear a Child, and the devil will bruise His (Christ's heel), and Christ will bruise his (Satan's) head. The only form of capital punishment that bruises the heel is crucifixion. The lungs are gasping for air, and the heel is placed against the cross and pushing upwards as hard as possible to try and breath. Next, God kills a lamb of the 1st year, cuts it into pieces and places them on an altar, and places blood on the altar, and burns the sacrifice to dust (a Burnt Offering) and then takes the skin and makes clothing for Adam and Eve out of these skins: 21. Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.Now, your first question to me has to be "how in the world can you leap to such a conclusion, based upon the one verse above ?". Because, in the very next Chapter of Genesis we read about Cain and Abel and about how they brought sacrifices to the Lord. Abel brought the firstlings of his flock, a BLOOD SACRIFICE and Cain brought the fruit from the ground (Cain was the first Frank Sinatra, doing it his way and not God's way):"3. And in process of time (at the end of days, on the Sabbath) it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. 4. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5. But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his count" This tells me that God created a way for Adam and Eve and all of mankind to "cover" their sin with the blood of sacrificed animals, until the appointed time of the final sacrifice, Jesus Christ. By doing this the Holy Spirit was able to come into them for short periods of time. In this way they could still commune with God.The entire Bible is one continuous thread of blood sacrifice (there is no remission without the shedding of blood), from God's example of what was required (a Blood Sacrifice) in Genesis 3:21 to the story of Cain and Abel, to Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Job, etc. etc. etc. to finally Mt. Siani where God layed out the Sacrificial Systen that would stay in place until the final sacrifice------ Jesus Christ.If we look at the Old Testament we find example after example of the Spirit coming upon believers and actually staying within believers for specific periods of time for specific tasks. When the Tabernacle was being built, the Holy Spirit was placed within Bezaleel to perform works in gold, silver & brass for the entire time that it was being built. Other examples are found throughout, especially in the Prophets. The "Spirit of the Lord" would come upon them and they would prophecy.The problem is that until sin was dealt with, until sin was paid for, the Holy Spirit could not dwell within that person for an entire lifetime, like the Holy Spirit does for us today. Since Christ paid the penalty for sin, the Holy Spirit is now free to spend eternity in each of us. There are only two Sacrifices of the Lord in which the skin of the animal is provided. In one of the offerings (the Burnt Offering) the skin is provided to the Priest. In the Peace offering the skin is provided to the sinner. Since Adam was the family Priest and is also a picture of the "final Adam, Jesus Christ, who is our Priest and King, I really think that God used the Burnt offering to provide skin to make them clothes. The reason? Abraham was in the process of sacrificing his son Isaac as a burnt offering when God provided him with a ram. This is a picture, a "type" of God providing His own Son Jesus Christ as the final sacrifice for the sin of the world, from the beginning of time to the end of time.God bless,Stever

Dear Stever,Sorry I've taken so long to get back to apply myself to responding to your post here. I do see it is tempting to take the view that Adam had the Holy Spirit. You saidAdam had direct communication with God, which tells me that he had the Holy Spirit. The only way that any of us today can have communion with God is if we have the Holy SpiritThere are two reasons I don't believe Adam had the Holy Spirit. The main one is that until the Fall, there was no sin to separate him from God, so he did not need the Holy Spirit. I have thought about this from various angles, but, one would think scripture would say in one place, probably Genesis 3, something like 'because you have done this thing, the separation you now feel is because I have removed my Spirit from you' - but, it does not. In the light of scripture's silence on the point and the abundant evidence of the promise of the Spirit to be given at a future date (after the Fall remembering always that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world), I believe the giving of the Holy Spirit to man is a step in the progression towards all of creation being gathered together in Christ, the Word made Flesh. I believe too, that scripture is very clear about Adam having been formed of the dust of the ground. Something has to happen to that dust (be born of the Holy Spirit) to make it compatible with the Bridegroom. Your point about how His heel bruised the serpent's head, is interesting. However, I have a slightly different take on it. That is, more to do with the power differential (that's one point). The other major point of difference, which gave Christ the power to stand on the serpent's head (head=powebase) was His sinlessness. Hebrews covers this topic in several different ways, but I would pick out His obedience to His Father's will in going to the cross. This in particular, was Him fulfilling what He was called to do. Whereas, Lucifer, created in great beauty and with great power, chose not to do what was asked of him but rather to set his own agenda. Jesus never did this and it is the hallmark of His right to be crowned King of kings, namely, His submission to a higher authority. Perhaps I have been influenced towards the idea that Jesus gained for us more than Adam lost, is encapsulated in this words from the great hymn, Jesus shall reign where'er the sun.Where He displays His healing power,Death and the curse are known no more:In Him the tribes of Adam boastMore blessings than their father lost. (Isaac Watts 1719)But, I don't find anything in scripture which disputes this, either. What Jesus taught about what lies ahead for the believer, is way different from what it appears would have been Adam's lot, had he not departed from the original word of God. The whole matter of choice and free will as an attribute of God is tied up in what happened in the garden of Eden and this is a vital aspect of the call in Rev 2217 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.In other words, there was a much grander plan in its infancy, in the garden of Eden, than Adam understood at the point in time when the serpent spoke to Eve, when he stood by and not only watched her throw away her own sinlessness, but, joined in by throwing away his own. I find it really hard to believe he had the Holy Spirit when he did that. Of course we need the Holy Spirit to commune with God, since He has graciously sent His Son to shed blood to cleanse our souls - something which Adam did not experience in his lifetime, through the blood sacrifices available by the death of animals.

"All of the below shows me that the original Adam is just like me. He is fleshy, earthy. He had a corrupt body of flesh and blood that could never inherit eternal life with God. But yet it says that Adam was also a picture of, a “figure” of Him (Christ) to come. I am presently on my way to being glorified, the same as you and any other Christian reading this post. Christ has paid the price for us, as well as the price for Adam and Eve and every other believer since the beginning of time, to take on our sin and forgive us of it as well. The only requirement is belief in Him."God’s word tells us in 1 Cor 15:50:50.\tNow this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.Yet, Adam was created by God from the earth, and was created with flesh & blood.We also find, that in the beginning Adam had tremendous intelligence. He actually named every animal that God had created.The first book of the Bible, Genesis is referred to as the “Book of the Generation of Adam” (Genesis 5)Luke (3:38) tells us: “Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD.Romans 5:14 tells us the ADAM WAS THE FIGURE OF HIM (CHRIST) TO COME.Romans 5:16-16 telss us that : Sin came by one man, Adam. Our gift, abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness IS BY ONE MAN (CHRIST JESUS).1 Cor 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.1 Cor 14:45The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam (Jesus Christ) was made a quickening Spirit.1 Cor 15:45-49: 46. “Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”Colossians 2:9 tells us that while Christ was on this earth he possessed the fullness of the Godhead bodily (within His flesh):9.\tFor in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.1 Cor 14:50 tells us that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God:50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.With all that said, God created us out of the earth, and created us “fleshly”, and created us out of flesh and blood. Yet, we read in the Gospels that the new, resurrected body of Jesus consisted of FLESH AND BONE, NOT FLESH AND BLOOD.Luke 24:39-40: 39. “ Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not FLESH AND BONES, as ye see me have.40.\tAnd when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.”XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxToday, I am a man of flesh and blood, the same as everyone reading this post. All Christians reading this post have living within them the Holy Spirit. Even with this miracle we still sin by thought and deed. We will not be able to keep the law until we have our glorified, resurrected bodies of flesh and bone, exactly like Christ’s resurrected body. Presently I am saved by Christ’s work on Calvary and His righteousness is imputed to me because I believe God, and upon the Messiah who He has sent.All of the above shows me that the original Adam is just like me. He is fleshy, earthy. He had a corrupt body of flesh and blood that could never inherit eternal life with God. But yet it says that Adam was also a picture of, a “figure” of Him (Christ) to come. I am presently on my way to being glorified, the same as you and any other Christian reading this post. Christ has paid the price for us, as well as the price for Adam and Eve and every other believer since the beginning of time, to take on our sin and forgive us of it as well. The only requirement is belief in Him.It says in God’s word that it was appointed as righteousness to Abraham because he believed God. Was he declared righteous because he believed God when God told him to leave Ur of the Chaldees and go to the promised land? Was that what he believed to be declared righteous by God? I think not. It was His belief in the Messiah to come, the seed of the woman, who would reconcile fallen man back to Himself that was the belief, the force behind his daily walk with God. This is the same BELIEF THAT SAVES US.Romans 4:3 “3. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”Romans 4:13 “13. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.”Adam and Eve, after the fall, BELIEVED GOD, and shared the “Gospel” (the “seed” of the woman would redeem fallen man back to God) with their Children, Cain and Abel. Abel believed the Gospel, and Cain did not. When the “end of days’ arrived (i.e. the end of the week, the Sabbath, the 7th day) each brought a sacrifice to the altar. Abel, a believer, brought a firstborn lamb to be sacrificed on the altar, a sacrifice that would be a picture of the final sacrifice Jesus Christ, A BLOOD SACRIFICE. Cain, on the other hand believed in himself and was a man after the flesh. He brought the “fruit of the ground”. Cain would of also had flocks to tend (for eating- after the fall, man ate flesh), but he did not bring what God required, he brought what he wanted to bring, thus showing us his pride and arrogance, with no fear or belief in God. God had respect for Abel’s sacrifice, and no respect for Cain’s.Fast forward to Noah. By this time Noah is the only man on the earth who still believes the Gospel passed down by Adam and Eve. By this “belief” in the seed of the woman, Noah found himself in communion with God. God found grace with Noah. God labeled him as “just”, as “perfect”. And we find that “Noah walked with God”.This same story continues to this day. The Gospel is still the same, only as we study the Old Testament we see the Gospel expounded upon & clarified upon in Book after Book until we get to Psalms and we find that ‘the seed of the woman” will actually first die on a cross, and lots (dice) will be cast for His clothes before He will come again to rule an reign.The New Testament reveals to us finally the entire Gospel in detail. Jesus was able to walk His Disciples all of the way throgh the entire Old Testament and declare the Gospel to them. He said "in the volume of the Book it is written of ME (Luke 24:27-31 '27. And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. 28. And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. 29. But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. 30. And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. 31. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.Now, today we tell this SAME GOSPEL to our Children. Some of them accept it, and others don’t. The fate of Cain and Abel continues in an endless cycle.As born again believers in Jesus Christ it is our commission to Witness to the Lost, not only our own Children (which is a must) but to all others as well:Mark 16:15-1915. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.God bless,Stever

In absolute terms only God has 'immortality'. (1Tim 6:16) but, yes, I do think Adam and Eve would have had an endless life-expectancy. Oswald Chambers has a thought that if God had allowed man to eat of the tree of life in his rebellious state man would have become an incarnate devil.The real point I was making is that 'eternal life' is not just 'life' described in terms of its length, but is 'qualitatively' eternal too.philologos,Could you please expand further on 'qualitatively eternal'?

Dorcas said to Philogos:Could you please expand further on 'qualitatively eternal'?"Stever's response:God's word tells us:16.\tAnd, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?The same "eternal life" that the Israelites were looking forward to.The same "eternal life" that Jesus Christ referred to in Mark 10:19-31"29. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30. But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. 31. But many that are first shall be last; and the last first."The same "eternal life" that John referred to in John 3:14-16. Eternal life that means everlasting life.14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.The same "eternal life" referred to again by Christ in John 5:39-41"39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41. I receive not honour from men."And, again in John 5:53-56"53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him".And, again in John 10:27-28" 27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:28.\tAnd I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."In John 17:3 it is finally clarified:We will be in Christ, and Christ will be in God and we will all be in God together, forever. The word "know" is the same word as intercourse (when Adam "knew" Eve). We will know Christ, we will be in Him and He in us in a spriritual way, and He is in God. This is spiritual one-ness:3.\tAnd this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.Romans 2:7 clarifies it again:7.\tTo them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:And again, in Romans 6:23 "23. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."Titus 1:1-2 tells us: "1. Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;2.\tIn hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"Titus 3:7 " 7. That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."1 John 1:2 offers us further clarification that Eternal Life is Christ Jesus. 2. (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)1 John 5:11-12 " 11. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."1 John 5:13 "13. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."Revelation 21:1-7 sums up exactly when this all takes place:1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.At the end of time, after the 1,000 year reign of Christ, He will create a New Heaven and a New Earth and He will be our God and we will be His people in our new glorified resurrected bodies of flesh and bone (just like His). And God will wipe away our tears and we will be with Him forever (eternal life) because we will be in Him (Christ) and He (Christ) will be in God.God bless,Stever

Dorcas said to Philogos:Could you please expand further on 'qualitatively eternal'?"Stever's continued response:Eternal Life, with God: This is what the hope and belief of Job was (AND ALL BELIEVERS IN GOD AND THE SEED OF THE WOMAN- THE MESSIAH TO COME)-that he would stand with MESSIAH, at the end of days, in a New, Resurrected body:Job 19:25-27"25. For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27. Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."Know HimJohn 14: 16-18" 16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye KNOW him; for he DWELLETH WITH YOU, and shall be IN you. 18. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."What is the prize of the High Calling of God in Jesus Christ? It is Jesus Christ, He is our prize, he is our "High Calling" and someday we will be "in" Him!:7. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10. That I may KNOW him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11. If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14. I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.1 John 5:20" 20. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may KNOW him that is true, and we are IN HIM that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and ETERNAL LIFE."God bless,Stever

Dorcas said:"In other words, there was a much grander plan in its infancy, in the garden of Eden, than Adam understood at the point in time when the serpent spoke to Eve, when he stood by and not only watched her throw away her own sinlessness, but, joined in by throwing away his own. I FIND IT REALLY HARD TO BELIEVE HE HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT WHEN HE DID THAT. Stever's response:Why is it so hard to believe that Adam sinned while having the Holy Spirit. Have you never sinned, ever by thought or deed since receiving the Holy Spirit?Flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life. Adam was made from the earth, created by God. We are also generated from this original Adam, of the same substance.1 Cor 15:49-50 tells us the problem. Our flesh and blood is the problem. Until we receive our new glorified, resurrected bodies we will not be fit for heaven and the very presence of God:" 49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."God bless,Stever

Stever,Your further response is illuminating. Thank you. You seem to make no difference in the effect that the Holy Spirit would have had on Adam before he had sinned the first time and the effect that the Holy Spirit has on us who have never not sinned. Perhaps I have not explained it in these terms till now. I apologise. Do you see more easily what I'm trying to get at?Therefore, I believe you are extrapolating backwards and attributing God's answer to the problem of sin which we face after the Fall, to Adam before the Fall.Everything (all the scripture) about our condition and Christ being the second Adam I accept, but remember, Christ was the second Adam in His sinlessness only. Unlike Adam who sinned SIN itself was attributed to Christ, that He might bear it away for us. Yes, He was made sin, who knew no sin, but that is the very point of difference. He was limited by His sinless Flesh, not by 'sin'. This is why in a previous post, I referred to the importance of Christ's sinlessness. It is mostly in this that He is the second Adam.Adam also, for a while, 'knew no sin', but, he was not the 'only-begotten Son of the Father'. This is another difference, that the 'Word' was made Flesh - completely different from the dust being made flesh. When God breathed into Adam, to make him a living soul, there is room to consider the possibility that He did not also give him His divine nature. When I said 'I FIND IT REALLY HARD TO BELIEVE HE HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT WHEN HE DID THAT', I am also saying I don't believe he was a 'partaker of the divine nature', when he did that.Yet, by our reception of the Holy Spirit, we are made partakers of the divine nature and thus enabled to have victory over sin. So, to answer your question, yes, I have sinned since I received the Holy Spirit, but, I see a completely different principle at work in my spirit since I was born again and I attribute my sins to my flesh, not to a sinful nature, now.

Dear Dorcas: The way that I try and understand the problem with our sin, even after being filled with the Holy Spirit, has made me wonder about the original Adam. God made Adam & Eve from the earth, and made them of flesh and blood, knowing full well that they would fail, miss the mark, and fall. It came as no surprise to God, but he made us anyway.What a wonderful plan he has created. He also knew beforehand that Satan would fall into sin, and take 1/3 of the Angels with him after he did so.God uses everything to His glory. This is all part of God's plan, before the beginning.God knew all along that flesh and blood could not inherit eternal life, but he created us anyway. Why? Because He had a plan for drawing billions to Himself over a period of 6,000 years. How? By offering Jesus Christ, the God Man, as a sin sacrifice for all those that believe on Him- to take away their sin nature. Further, Jesus Christ, the God Man, resurrected from the dead, as a Firstfruits of the resurrection. We will follow him into the resurrection at the rapture, and we will be like HIM. He will be our God and we will be His people.Dorcas said:Yet, by our reception of the Holy Spirit, we are made partakers of the divine nature and thus enabled to have victory over sin.Stever's response:I do agree, we are made partakers of the divine nature by Christ's death on the Cross and Resurrection from the dead, however, we are still not like Him. We are still mud balls that continue to miss the mark. Granted, we are not overt sinners like we were in the past, before being saved but we have to remember that Christ's righteousness is only "imputed" to us. We are not righteous yet, and will only become so at the rapture. We will continue to sin, by thought and sometimes by deed, until we are placed in the coffin or raptured, whatever comes first.1 Cor 13:12 tells us:12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.At least, that is the way that I see it.God bless,Stever

Hi Stever,I'm beginning to see that in most things we are looking at the same 'house' from different viewpoints and I'm not going to persuade you that Adam did not have the Holy Spirit, it appears. However, what it means for the Church to be the Bride of Christ is something which interests me greatly, because of the emphasis from Paul and John particularly, on all things being gathered into one, in Him. You said 'however, we are still not like Him' and I would not disagree with you. BUT I would not 'think' in those terms any time it can be avoided. The overwhelming claim of scripture is that we are like Him because we are 'a new creation' which is already 'perfect' and 'when we see Him', we shall 'be like Him'. It has helped me a lot, to try to see things from God's point of view, because until I did, I carried on being hopeless and feeling helpless about many aspects of my life. Perhaps this is a sign I have a long way to go still to go until I am taking in a full appreciation of my failings!

Dorcas said:You said 'however, we are still not like Him' and I would not disagree with you. BUT I would not 'think' in those terms any time it can be avoided. The overwhelming claim of scripture is that we are like Him because we are 'a new creation' which is already 'perfect' and 'when we see Him', we shall 'be like Him'. Stever's response:None of us are righteous, no not one. Only one is righteous, Jesus Christ, the God Man. Christ's righteousness is only imputed to us. The Holy Spirit lives within us, but we still, as long as we are in this flesh, in this blood inherited from Adam, we still have this "sin nature" in us.If we look at the 10th Commandment clearly, we see that if we never coveted, we would not break the other 9 commandments. Christ, at the Sermon on the Mount, made it very clear that if we ever thought of committing adultery, if we ever looked upon another woman (other than our wives) in lust, that we had committed adultery. That is the problem with us today, in this flesh and blood "tent" that we inhabit. Until we are in the graves we will not stop sinning, by THOUGHT OR DEED. We will only become LIKE HIM- RIGHTEOUS- AT THE RAPTURE. IN THE MEANTIME, CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS IS ONLY IMPUTED TO US. POSITIONALLY, WE ARE IN CHRIST. AT THE RAPTURE,WE WILL FINALLY BE IN CHRIST, AND LIKE HIM.ON THIS EARTH, ON OUR CHRISTIAN WALK, WE CONTINUE TO LOOK AT THE GLASS DARKLY, NOT ABLE TO SEE EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE. AT THE RAPTURE, WHEN WE SEE CHRIST FACE TO FACE, WE WILL FINALLY BE LIKE HIM.God bless,Stever

Stever,Until we are in the graves we will not stop sinningAre you saying you have no victory over any past sin? You never felt cleansed and holy because of the application of the Blood to your soul?

Dorcas said:Are you saying you have no victory over any past sin? You never felt cleansed and holy because of the application of the Blood to your soul?Stever's response:Of course I have felt victory from past sin. In God's eyes I am redeemed. That is only because when He sees me, He sees the Holy Spirit that dwells in my heart. He also sees my heart, and is aware that I believe in Jesus Christ and He knows that I am a Christian. Christ's righteousness is imputed to me.God's word tells me: 10. "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" [Romans 3:10]. There is only one righteous man that has ever lived-Jesus Christ the God Man. Since I believe on Him, I am proclaimed righteous by Him, based upon the works that He did.I am now, the same as you, only positionally righteous. I am not righteous like Christ is righteous. The only purpose for the law was to prove once and for all that it is impossible for mankind to keep the law. The only one that can keep the law is God. It just proves to us how wide the divide is between God and man. The Old Testament believers were not as fortunate as we are---the Holy Spirit could not dwell in them always. He could only dwell in them and on them for limited periods of time until sin was dealt with, until sin was paid for. With that being said, I would still trade my walk with God with the walk of King David, or Abraham, or even Samuel.I have overcome all sorts of sin. Does that make me righteous when I look at the requirements? God forbid. I am on my knees because of the sin nature that I still have. Our thoughts are just as deadly as the very acts that we used to commit. Are we angry with our brother? Then we are guilty of murder, eventhough we never committed the crime. Matthew 5:22 "22. But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."No, none of us are righteous, not one of us, Christian or non-Christian. We are deemed righteous, because we are Christian and believe God and the Messiah He sent. Not for anything that we have done. The Holy Spirit empowers us to overcome all types of sin, but that is not what saves us. Christ death on the cross and blood sacrifice is what saves us, the same as it saves the believer before the cross who believed God and the Messiah to come.The Christian believer still sins, eventhough he has the Holy Spirit in his heart, by thought and deed until his dying day. The un-believer sins as well. The difference is, the un-believer is labeled by the sins he continues to commit--by thought and deed---throughout his life. He is judged by his works, while the Christian is judged by Christ's works.The non-believer is labeled as fornicator, adulter, effeminite, etc. etc. etc. because he is judged by his own works. We, as believers are only judged for rewards by Christ at the Bema Judgment seat of rewards. We have already been declared righteous and will not attend the Great White Throne Judgment. Only the lost will be called there.How do we have relationship with Christ, while we walk this earth? How can two walk together if they do not agree? (Amos 3:3 " 3. Can two walk together, except they be agreed?). For me that walk is accomplished by: 1) admitting that I am a sinner 2) repenting when I sin. My sin can be by thought or deed 3) asking God for forgiveness for my sin 4) continuing my walk with HIM.That is what it is all about for me. I have witnessed Christians who mistake their position in Christ (redeemed) for their actual state (a work in progress), that will never be in a righteous state based upon their own "works" in their lifetime on this earth. They become puffed up and proud, and the truth is not found in them. Also, they have trouble with worship. Why should they worship God, when they are righteous themselves? I see them at Church. They arrive just in time for the message, and miss the worship, miss the praise. I know them and I know their hearts, because I used to be one of them.God bless,Stever

Hi Stever,Thanks for your answer to my first question. In your reply, you offer me further challenges to expound my comprehension, to which I will return. Pressing for immediate discussion though, is what you said hereWe, as believers are only judged for rewards by Christ at the Bema Judgment seat of rewards. We have already been declared righteous and will not attend the Great White Throne Judgment. Only the lost will be called there. which I have seen laid out (not expounded) on a website, but never heard preached. How can your division of the word be justified by these verses?Revelation 2011 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

dorcas wrote:Hi Stever,Thanks for your answer to my first question. In your reply, you offer me further challenges to expound my comprehension, to which I will return. Pressing for immediate discussion though, is what you said here

We, as believers are only judged for rewards by Christ at the Bema Judgment seat of rewards. We have already been declared righteous and will not attend the Great White Throne Judgment. Only the lost will be called there. which I have seen laid out (not expounded) on a website, but never heard preached. How can your division of the word be justified by these verses?Revelation 20- with reference to the Great White Throne Judgment.....xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:I am more than happy to respond:Judgment seat of Christ.This passage is directed to the Christian believers in Rome [Romans 14:9-10]9. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.This is directed to the believers at Corinth [2 Corinthians 5:8-10]:8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10. For we (CHRISTIANS) must all appear before the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.This again is directed to the believers at Corinth [ 1 Corinthians 3:16-15} TELLING US THAT THE CHRISTIAN IS SAVED, EVEN AFTER GOING THROUGH THIS JUDGMENT6. I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.God's word tells us that the fallen Angels will be judged at the Great White Throne:Jude 1:66.\tAnd the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.2 Peter 2:44. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;The Bible tells us that at the Great White Throne Judgment Christ opens the Books- one Book is the Book of Life. The other Book is the Book of the Law. Each man is weighed in the balance. Each one has either been trying to earn his way to heaven by his own works, or has totally rejected God. The Law, the standard of Holiness is weighed against each man & woman and fallen Angel. The Christian will not be so judged, as the Christian is judged by the Work of Jesus Christ:11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. 13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. 14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.The Christian is NOT judged according to his own works. The Christian is judged BY THE WORKS OF CHRIST, and therefore cannot be at the Great White Throne to be judged. Only the Lost will be in attendance there. The Christian is Judged at the Bema Seat of Rewards (JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST), and will actually be present with Christ at the Great White Throne judging the fallen angels:1 Cor 6:2-3- Paul, writing to the Christian Church at Corinth had this to say:2. Do ye not know that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3. Know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE ANGELS? how much more things that pertain to this life?God bless,Stever

Dorcas said:Are you saying you have no victory over any past sin? You never felt cleansed and holy because of the application of the Blood to your soul?Stever's continued response:1 John 1:7-10: This is John's letter to the Churches:7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10. IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR, AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US.This is a good one to think about. We are deemed righteous, because we are Christian and believe God and the Messiah He sent. Not for anything that we have done. The Holy Spirit empowers us to overcome all types of sin, but that is not what saves us. Christ death on the cross and blood sacrifice is what saves us, the same as it saves the believer before the cross who believed God and the Messiah to come.God bless,Stever

The Judgment Seat of Christ (Continued):This again is directed to the believers at Corinth [ 1 Corinthians 3:16-15} TELLING US THAT THE CHRISTIAN IS SAVED, EVEN AFTER GOING THROUGH THIS JUDGMENT6. I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.7. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.8. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.What is happening in the above Judgment seat of Christ, the Judgment seat of rewards? As beleivers, we are all commanded to be about Christ's business- to Witness to the Lost, to feed the poor, to love our brothers, etc. etc. etc.At the Judgment seat of Christ (the Refiners Fire) all of our "works" mentioned above (to Witness to the Lost, to feed the poor, to love our brothers, etc. etc. etc.) will be placed into the Refiners Fire of Jesus Christ. All of the "works" that we have performed on His behalf will be examined. Any of our works that were performed to earn a better place in heaven or to earn praise from men will be burned before our eyes like wood, hay and stubble. Anything that we have done (works) for God's glory (not our own) will be burned through the same fire and provide the Christian believer with rewards of Gold, Silver and Precious Stones.God bless,Stever

Good morning, Stever, You have explained clearly what you believe. That's ok. I hope it's ok with you, that I don't agree on several points, which is not to suggest I'm 'right'. You've covered quite a lot of scripture, therefore my responses will be as brief as I can, for the sake of clarity.Way back you quoted from the middle of Paul's explanation of why we are all counted as sinners. (Rom 3:10) He then explains how God has fixed it so believers are counted righteous.v 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith...'Unlike you, I don't hold myself apart from this statement, otherwise several other scriptures don't make sense, for instance: I am now 'in Christ' Eph 1:4 - 6. My life is 'hid with Christ in God' Col 3:3. 'That they also may be one in us' John 17:14 - 21. The possibility of these statements follow from John 3:5 - 8, 18 - 21... just limiting to a few key thoughts in these verses. The latter section ties in very well with a verse you later quoted from 1 John 1, but did not emphasise, that is v 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. Yet to me, this is a key to understanding John's use of the word 'if' in v 9 and 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. contd.

George Muller said 'try not to sin' because then there is nothing to be guilty over. I see this, that it removes the ground of condemnation by which we flounder, questioning where we are in our relationship with God. The way you explain your thinking, it is as if you are reserving all the benefits of salvation (most of which I believe can be enjoyed in some measure now), until some future time, almost cocooning yourself in a realtime ritual of constant reminders you are really a sinner who needs to repent regularly. Possibly, this is not what meant to convey by your posts. But, possibly, you feel like this because it is true, though. All I can say is, it doesn't need to be true. Or at least, it is possible to hold different thoughts about the problem of sins, which alter the balance of power in favour of not sinning. I extract the thought that it is possible to 'not sin' from John's writings.My testimony now is that although I have very serious sins in my past, I no longer feel condemned by them, nor by the knowledge that I am being perfected in Him. The balance of my thinking is towards Him, His work, His ability to make His work 'work' in me and His presence in me by the Holy Spirit.

Returning to the matter of judgment, I find myself turning to a number of verses other than you selected, and reading them differently. For instance, in 3 Cor below, the emphasis that reaches my understanding, is that God is building us into His temple - we are living stones -1 Peter 25 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: When it comes to the 'gold, silver, precious stones' I don't see them as anything directly to do with our reward in terms of receiving them. Rather, we become 'gold, silver, precious stones' in His building, which will stand the test of fire.9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Stever,To the scriptures which you offered on judgment, I would addLuke 637 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: There are other verses where the reciprocity of God's judgement is measured against our actions.1 Cor 1131 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. John 522 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. Matthew 1623 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.Luke 2341 And we [thieves] indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. When I studied 'reward' previously, I discovered that God Himself is my exceeding great Reward. Also, that I would be rewarded according to my deeds. That is, as far as I can tell, nothing to do with my sins, which by faith are accounted for by Christ's blood, as you have said.Presumably, this has something to do with obedience to his will, after one is saved, and of walking in the good works which have been prepared for us, not to mention being sanctified.

Dorcas said:"My testimony now is that although I have very serious sins in my past, I no longer feel condemned by them, nor by the knowledge that I am being perfected in Him. The balance of my thinking is towards Him, His work, His ability to make His work 'work' in me and His presence in me by the Holy Spirit"Stever's response:I agree with you 100%. I feel no condemnation from my sins of the past. All sin is considered past sin by Christ, because he died for all sin on calvary-past,all the way to Adam and into the future, to the end of time. All that we have to do is to believe in Him to receive forgiveness for all sin.God bless,Stever

.. The Christian is judged BY THE WORKS OF CHRIST, and therefore cannot be at the Great White Throne to be judged. Only the Lost will be in attendance there.Why not? What about the dead whose names are in the book of life? Why would not they be there with the rest of the dead? Revelation 2012 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.What about Matthew 25?31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: The Christian is Judged at the Bema Seat of Rewards (JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST), and will actually be present with Christ at the Great White Throne judging the fallen angels:I'm not sure the 'Bema Seat' is a totally Christian concept, if it originated at Olympic games (which it did - something to do with being judged on performance - also not a Christian concept).Lastly, although I see that the angels are being reserved unto judgment, and that we will judge angels, I don't see them in Revelation 20 where the white throne is mentioned.They are mentioned below, in a similar context. Matthew 2541 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Stever,..In response to your last post ..I agree with you 100%. I feel no condemnation from my sins of the past. All sin is considered past sin by Christ, because he died for all sin on calvary-past,all the way to Adam and into the future, to the end of time. All that we have to do is to believe in Him to receive forgiveness for all sin.Then why didn't you say that the first time? :-P