God's Spoken Word.

The foundation of Liberal/modern Christianity is that the Bible only contains the word of God and is not the Word of God.

Biblical Christianity has a correct balance that is articulated by Spurgeon very well in the following :

Spurgeon on Hebrews 4:12.\t
"...This shows us a great Truth of God which we might not otherwise have so clearly noted. How much that can be said of the Lord Jesus may be also said of the inspired volume! How closely are these two allied! How certainly do those who despise the one reject the other! How intimately are the Word made flesh and the Word uttered by inspired men, joined together!

It may be most accurate to interpret this passage as relating both to the Word of God Incarnate and the Word of God Inspired. Weave the two into one thought, for God has joined them together, and you will then see fresh lights and new meanings in the text. The Word of God, namely, this Revelation of Himself in Holy Scripture, is all it is here described to be, because Jesus, the Incarnate Word of God, is in it. He does, as it were, incarnate Himself as the Divine Truth in this visible and manifest Revelation. And thus it becomes living and powerful, dividing and discerning.

As the Christ reveals God, so this Book reveals Christ, and therefore it partakes, as the Word of God, in all the attributes of the Incarnate Word. And we may say many of the same things of the written Word as of the embodied Word. In fact, they are now so linked together that it would be impossible to divide them. This I like to think of, because there are some nowadays who deny every doctrine of Revelation and yet, indeed, they praise the Christ. The Teacher is spoken of in the most flattering style and then His teaching is rejected, except so far as it may coincide with the philosophy of the moment.

They talk much about Jesus, while that which is the real Jesus, namely, His Gospel and His inspired Word, they cast away. I believe I do but correctly describe them when I say that, like Judas, they betray the Son of Man with a kiss. They even go so far as to cry up the names of the doctrines, though they use them in a different sense that they may deceive. They talk of loyalty to Christ and reverence for the Sermon on the Mount””but they use vain words. I am charged with sowing suspicion. I do sow it and desire to sow it. Too many Christian people are content to hear anything so long as it is put forth by a clever man, in a taking manner.

I want them to try the spirits, whether they are of God, for many false prophets have gone forth into the world. What God has joined together, these modern thinkers willfully put asunder and separate the Revealer from His own Revelation. I believe the Savior thinks their homage to be more insulting than their scorn would be. Well may He do so, for they bow before Him and say, "Hail, Master!” while their foot is on the blood of His Covenant and their souls abhor the doctrine of His substitutionary sacrifice.

They are crucifying the Lord afresh and putting Him to an open shame by denying the Lord that bought them, by daring to deride His purchase of His people as a "mercantile transaction,” and I know not what of blasphemy beside. Christ and His Word must go together. What is true of the Christ is here predicated both of Him and of His Word. Behold this day the everlasting Gospel has Christ within it. He rides in it as in a chariot. He rides in it as, of old, Jehovah "did ride upon a cherub and did fly””yes, He did fly upon the wings of the wind.” It is only because Jesus is not dead that the Word becomes living and effectual, "and sharper than any two-edged sword.”

If you leave Christ out of it, you have left out its vitality and power. As I have told you that we will not have Christ without the Word, so neither will we have the Word without Christ. If you leave Christ out of Scripture, you have left out the essential Truth of God which it is written to declare. Yes, if you leave out of it Christ as a Substitute, Christ in His death, Christ in His garments dyed in blood, you have left out of it all that is living and powerful. How often have we reminded you that as concerning the Gospel, even as concerning every man, "the blood is the life thereof”””a bloodless Gospel is a lifeless Gospel!"

Agreed proudpapa. Very much so.

None of that changes by one whit the fact that the Bible contains the written and living word of God and Christ Himself.

/The word of God is a person./

Absolutely. That doesn't change by one iota the eternal value of His living word recorded in the Bible as a living and inexhaustible resource.

I think we have to remember the context of the New Testament. At the birth of the church, the only portion of the written word of God extant was the Old Testament writings. These could not be properly understood without the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

So the apostles, many of whom were fairly uneducated people, had to trust in the Holy Spirit to speak to them the word of God. Paul, Luke, perhaps Matthew were probably the most educated of the Apostles in the writings of the Old Testament. But even they had to have the Holy Spirit show them or reveal to them the truth of the plan of salvation in its fulness.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

John tells us that we need not that any man teach us, but that the Holy Spirit, knowing all things and abiding or dwelling in us, will naturally teach us all things. Remember the context is the absence of any writings that we now consider to be the New Testament.

Apart from the spoken word of God, the written word is simply words on a page. Remember Paul told us in 1 Cor. 2 that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him. When we attempt to understand the written word apart from the spoken word we wind up with a vain attempt to understand spiritual things with a corrupt, human intellect. We become hollow intellectuals who do not truly understand the things of the Spirit.

But when we have the written word revealed in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, we have the written word of truth interpreted and opened up to our spiritual understanding by the author Himself. God speak His truth to us through His Holy Spirit. When the two come together, we no longer speak with enticing words of man's wisdom, but we speak in demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit. We cannot have one apart from the other.

By the way, I have seen many, many instances of people who are totally uneducated in the word of God, who have never read any of the Bible, when they are born again and begin to experience true fellowship with God through the Holy Spirit, have truth revealed to them by the Holy Spirit that they only later realize is even contained in written scripture.

Blaine wrote:

"Under the Old Covenant God spoke to the Israelites throigh the written law of Moses. The law had to be interpreted by various priest and Levites. Obedience was exernal resulting in an outward righteousness. The emphasis was on the written law of Moses."

Abel was the first prophet, long before the written law was given to Moses, how did God communicate to them?

Blaine

You posted John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

You spoke of working things out in this thread...

Scripture confirms Scripture...

Jhn 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

For the above Scripture to be true, Able would have to be the first prophet of God. For the Word gives light to every man that comes into the world.

Just something to chew on...

When the Scripture is read without faith : "the Bible is nothing more than just a book of words."

When read by faith it becomes a living book.

The Key is Faith.

And if the Spirit takes the written word and speaks it to our hearts how can a dedication to and faith in the written word be called biblolatry?

Quote br Blaine:"In chewing on the above thoughts of our brother Jeff. I'm inclined to ask a controversial question ( who moi?). But one to stimulate some thinking. Does God speak outside of the written word of scripture in this day and age? "

1. Concerning His universal and general will for mankind? Why should He?
He has spoken through His Son and we have His message
2. Specifically through gifts of the Holy Spirit in certain circumstances for guidance etc?
I believe yes.

I can't recall any well known Bible teachers who deny the Holy Spirit's involvement in making the word real in our hearts.

RE : /// And if the Spirit takes the written word and speaks it to our hearts how can a dedication to and faith in the written word be called biblolatry? ///

"They charge us with Bibliolatry. It is a crime of their own inventing, of which few are guilty. If there are such things as venial sins, surely an undue reverence of Holy Scripture is one of them. To me the Bible is not God, but it is God’s voice””and I do not hear it without awe. What an honor to have as one’s calling to study, to expound and to publish this sacred Word! I cannot help feeling that the man who preaches the Word of God is standing, not upon a mere platform, but upon a throne." - Spurgeon

So if 99.5% and probably more of men of God don't advocate such there's no real epidemic of biblolatry in the body of Christ. The only time I have heard the charge is when it came from nonbelievers describing Christians in the Bible belt.

Blaine asked,

"Does God speak outside of the written word of scripture in this day and age? "

Yes. He said to me 21 years ago, "How can you teach your son about Me for you do not know Me."

With in the Scriptures, we are given many examples of conversations between God and man. If one were to compare Abraham and Paul, what was the nature of the conversations that God had with these two men?

What are some of the similarities?

Replying to supposed examples of God speaking outside the word is not wise if one does not know what type of examples are being referenced. God speaking outside the word - what are the examples you have in mind?

Can God take these examples and make them real and alive in your heart by His Holy Spirit? If so does what is made real agree with Scripture?

But first, how does God speak outside of His Word in your opinion? How and in what ways?

That is a whole nother issue from what you seemed to be implying. I believe these dreams and visions to Muslims are really occurring but what in these dreams and visions God is revealing about Christ can't be found in the word? If they obtain a Bible many will likely read it and say that confirms exactly what God showed me before I had a Bible. God may do this but He won't speak outside the bounds of His written word which is really His living word.

David writes:

"God may do this but He won't speak outside the bounds of His written word which is really His living word."

What do you mean by the qualifier "outside the bounds of His written word"?

Would you consider working this idea out a bit?

Blaine writes:

"Brother at this point I'm going to have to extrapolate out of the scriptures."

Yes, Paul classifies this as examples given to us. The examples you provided are indeed testimony of what God has worked in the lives of Abraham and Paul. God introduced Himself to each of these men. And both Paul and Abraham were brought through a time of preparation, as you have noted in your response.

And as we learn from the testimony of these two men, they begin to love God. And that love for God overcomes the world.

This precept is spoken of by Paul,

Eph 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

And

2Ti 2:20
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.

2Ti 2:21
Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

Is there any limit to the ways in which God chooses to work out salvation, is He limited by the written Word of God?

RE : /// Brothers do you believe that God speaks "only" through the written scriptures? ///

NO

RE : ///In other words, does God speak in any other ways "except" by the written word as contained in the Bible? ///

Yes

But The Scripture is a 'more sure word' than anything that we experience.

And anything/everything that we experience or feel, hear (or see) needs to be tested and come into compliance (or at least not contradict) with what is Written ?

When Jesus was being tempted, what did he rely on to discern what he was hearing ?

What was Written.

edit : clarity

Exactly proud papa, not only that , the scripture , blain presented in the beginning , is that god has spoken to us through the son , the gosple of Christ , the teachings of Christ , that are writtern and recorded and read and preached or parra preached , word of God

And we see that the apostals doctrine is up there with the words Christ , being that god chose the apostal and has revealed to only them , special teaching , that we see in the book of acts ,the saints abided in ,

Facts are we do not have the infalable revaluations revealed to us independently , of Christ and the apaostals ,

There is know knew doctrines given to us , , that don't come through scriptures.......

Just because some one doesn't believe in the gift of toungs and healings , doesn't mean they haven't recieved a gift of the spirit , and are true believes , men like Paul washer fall into this category

You must covert the gift to recieve , if one doesn't believe and understand a gift , he won't recieve it , and there for won't see in his own life , it may be a loss to him , depending of how he fans the flame of the gift he has ,

That's what important , , not speaking in toungs

What have you done what god has given you , give up the judgment of gods servants , , and prove that you are excelling in your gift and prove that you have the greater gift ......

Be concerned about being perfect your self , and stop , pointing out what you see as imperfections

And then you'll be hearing gods spoken word , and writtern word ,
And don't look for amens from others , but well done servant from god , and you and I will do well .......

42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts 2 42

proudpapa writes:

"But The Scripture is a 'more sure word' than anything that we experience."

This is Paul's experience...

Act 9:5
And he said, "Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.[fn] It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

Act 9:6
So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?” Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

So Paul obeyed and went to the city.

Act 9:17
And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus,[fn] who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Paul's experience was confirmed by the Word.

It is God who confirms through the work of the Holy Spirit. If the voice is true the confirmation will come at it's appointed time.

No one else will have the exact same experience as Paul, but everyone who hears His voice will have confirmation just like Paul. Faith is the substance of hearing and then seeing what God is working in one's life.

This subject of the spoken or the written word of God is be made overly complicated, when the issue is really quite simple.

That God speaks his word to us as well as (but not in conflict with) His written word is affirmed by most all of us. However it is also true that His written word (the bible) is more sure and of higher value. Why is this?

Lets be clear, God did not take a quill and ink and write His words onto the parchment. He SPOKE his word to men who WROTE His word in what we have now as the Holy scriptures, i.e the bible.

Why is this written word (the bible) more sure and of higher value to us? If God speaks at any time including now to me or you, His word is 100% true. The issue is not God's word, but how it is received and recorded. Has it been faithfully heard and recorded? The bible faithfully and accurately records for us God's word.

Let me give a simple explanation. If I want to communicate something to a close friend or relative, they may welcome me speaking to them personally as this is more intimate. However if I want to communicate some very important information to them that also needs to shared with others, that they will not misunderstand, forget or change what I mean, I will write it down and send it to them, because there is much less chance of a misunderstanding and it can be refferrd back to at any time and also forwarded onto others exactly as it was given.
This is also why God chose to use the written word, that there would be no mistake about what He has said. We all know about the 'Chinese Whisper effect' and know what happens when you tell someone something verbally, who then passes it onto someone else, etc, etc. The message and meaning can get changed very significantly.

Much as been said about Muslims receiving dreams and visions, as if this negates the need or importance of the bible. However the testimony of those Muslims who have had dreams and visions is that they earnestly desire to have a bible in their hands and rejoice greatly when they do get one! I know personally of a man who spent many years taking bibles into Islamic nations. He testifies that it is true that some Muslims in nations where they have no access to the the word of God are receiving dreams and visions of Christ showing He is the true God. However he also says that when they get a bible and or biblical teaching they no longer have these dreams and visions as they have the very word of God available to read. Why is it that these people that no easy access to the bible value it so much and yet those in lands where they can have a multitude of bibles do not value it?? They would be horrified that their experience is being used to talk down the value and importance of God's word, the bible!

Thank God we have His written word, this does not make us worshipers of a book, but worshipers of the author of that book! It does not mean we read it 'legalistically', but as the 'word of grace "that gives us knowledge unto salvation" (2 Tim 3:15).

rookie,

What I mean is that whatever God may speak outside of His written word, through dreams or visions or revelations, should be able later to be found or verified within scripture. A lady stood up once in a prayer meeting and said, "I got a revelation! I got a revelation. God is one." From this unscriptural anti Trinity "revelation" the Pentecostal Oneness movement began. She had had a revelation all right but not from God. She ran out of bounds from what is in the written word. I'm not against Christ appearing to non believing Muslims. I believe He is appearing and many are being saved but whatever Christ reveals to them will not violate what can be found in the written word.

And if the Spirit takes the written word and speaks it to our hearts how can a dedication to and faith in the written word be called biblolatry?

Biblolatry...Hmmm. I would say that if we revere the leather, paper, and ink this might be. But I have seen men and women whose relationship with God is based entirely upon an intellectual understanding of scripture. They can give all kinds of apologies and can expound why their particular doctrine is "biblical". They are great at arguing scripture. But unfortunately that is as far as it goes. They do not acknowledge the power of the Holy Spirit to speak to us revelation knowledge of the word of God. Remember, before His conversion, Paul had a knowledge of scripture that was equalled by few in even his own circles. He quotes the OT scriptures voluminously in his letters. Yet he was a Pharisee, a legalistic man with no true knowledge of God. He did not even recognize God when God knocked him off his horse. But once he was empowered by the Holy Spirit, he was given revelation of the word of God that changed the entire world. Pretty powerful the ministry of the Holy Spirit as He speaks the word of God into our hearts.

My sheep hear my voice...

I believe the Bible is replete with examples of men and women to whom God spoke directly, outside of scripture. My live has also been full of such men and women, and often as I go through the day, I carry on a dialogue with God. He speaks to me and I speak to Him. He tells me of His desires for my life. He tells me how to understand His written word. He tells me of His will and asks me to obey Him. The more time I spend with Him, the more I am in tune to His voice and the more clearly I hear Him speak. (Not audibly, but in my spirit.)

As a believer with my feet firmly rooted in His word, I am able to discern what I am hearing. I know God's voice, yet if I am ever unsure, I have the written word of God by which I judge all things. Someone posted that the written word is the more sure word of prophecy. We have to realize that in context we learn that even if an angel appears before us in visible form, that angel's words are confirmed or rejected based upon the written word of God.

God's written word is the standard by which we measure all things. But God absolutely speaks to us outside of the written word.

Travis,

I do concur with what you have written and I think most everyone else on here does as well. The concern is not that God does not speak revelation knowledge to His people, but that this is being set up against the written testimony of the bible as if this is not necessary. Not that you are saying this.

I just had a practical example of what I wrote earlier. I had to discuss some technical issues with a person earlier regarding my profession. He had earlier sent me an email (written words) that our verbal discussion revolved around. because we had a written record of the technical points, we both understood and could refer to the same sets of facts and I could ask him to to explain more fully what he had written. It struck me as we ere doing this, that this is exactly how God speaks to us by His Spirit in opening up revelation regarding His word. God uses His written word when He speaks to us and when we speak to him, to get a full understanding of His will.

All this is not to take away from God speaking more directly and specifically to us about certain things He desires us to do that are not explicitly laid out in scripture or doctrinal in nature. But even here we need to be humble and cautious as we acknowledge we can often mistake God's voice for our own soul of flesh.

Dave wrote:

"Why is this written word (the bible) more sure and of higher value to us? If God speaks at any time including now to me or you, His word is 100% true."

I agree, here is an example based on the discussion in this thread. First, the idea of God sending dreams and visions to the Muslims.

Act 2:11
"Cretans and Arabs””we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”

Act 2:17
‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.

Act 2:18
And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.

Peter describes and attributes the works of God at Pentecost. The Muslims today are receiving visions and dreams.

Now as David has said that according to Scripture which are sure...

Apostle John was at Pentecost, and near the end of his life we are given more examples of dreams and visions given him in the Book of Revelation. Not only does Christ speak to him but also angels.

Rev 10:9
So I went to the angel and said to him, "Give me the little book.” And he said to me, "Take and eat it; and it will make your stomach bitter, but it will be as sweet as honey in your mouth.”

The writer of Hebrew states..

Heb 1:1

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 1:2
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

So the Scriptures teach us that even in this day, after God sent His Son to preach the Gospel, dreams, visions, and angels are still used by the Holy Spirit to call all those who are being saved.

The written word is our guide the Holy Spirit is the means by which we hear Christ. And we know from Scripture that hearing the Word of God is the source of our faith.

Jhn 5:36
"But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish””the very works that I do””bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

Jhn 5:37
"And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

Jhn 5:38
"But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

Jhn 5:39
"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

Jhn 5:40
"But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Jesus points our a very clear distinction above. The searching of Scripture alone will not bring eternal life.

Why?

Jhn 5:37
"And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

Rookie,

You only quoted what I said partially and that can be misunderstood.

I wrote: "Why is this written word (the bible) more sure and of higher value to us? If God speaks at any time including now to me or you, His word is 100% true. The issue is not God's word, but how it is received and recorded. Has it been faithfully heard and recorded? The bible faithfully and accurately records for us God's word."

The point is, even if God does speak to us and it will be 100% true, we might not hear acurately or record it accurately. It is also not only possible, but often occurs that many times when folk say God told them something it is not God at all. That is why there are so many false prophecies and false prophets.

It appears that Blaine is still persisting in pushing the point that we don't need the written word. If that is his true position, he is already deceived into a false teaching.

Bro Blaine,

They had Christ expounded to them by the apostles from the Old Testament and from what Jesus Himself had taught them
They later had the letters from the apostles reinforcing the message.

The church is built, remember, on the teaching of the apostles and prophets. They had been given the revelation of Christ and they laid the foundation.
Of course, the gospel also expanded by word of mouth testimony.

We now have the written New Testament in which the message has been preserved. Their are no apostles like the Twelve with "fresh" revelation from God.

Blessings,

Quote Blaine: "s through the written word of the Bible? There is no spoken word from the Holy Spirit"

What are you getting at Blaine?

Of course the Holy Spirit speaks...He testifies of Jesus Christ.
Of course the gospel was originally preached by the apostles and people were saved by hearing the message.
We have the message in writing, thank God, but people still preach Christ and people are saved hearing the message, whether they have the bible or not.
But their are no apostles today like then and we do not need anything added to the bible we already have.

RE : /// So again the question must be asked. How did the first century church get along without access to the written word?///

We know that before the passing of the apostles that the letters where being passed around (the research that I have done in the past taught that the letters where being copied and copied and passed around and copied)

Peter mentions the Writings of Paul and says that they are Scripture.

And as far as how did the early Church get along without those Scriptures,

You might remember they had serious issues such as What Paul had to address in Corinthians and Galatians, And What John had to write concerning those whom where trying to seduce them.

Without the Written Word they where being led astray right and left.

Someone was messing around with there Dads wife and the Church in Corinth did not know how to handle the situation,

Some where seducing them into coming back under the Law and they did not know what to believe and Paul had to address it in the letter to Galatia,

And there where serious issues seducing others that John had to deal with. etc. etc.

And that was all happening while the eye witness apostles where still alive.

"We should desire to be governed by no voice other than the one we find in the Bible. We can't trust even the sweetest inner voice we may hear. Paul says that even if an angel were to bring us a word that's contrary to scripture, we should reject it." - David Wilkerson

"The Bible, the whole Bible, and nothing but the Bible is the religion of Christ's church." Leonard Ravenhill and CH Spurgeon

"Again, I have no visions or angelic revelations, neither do I seek or desire such, lest I be thereby deceived. For Christ's Word alone is sufficient for me. If I do not follow His testimony, then verily all is lost. And even if I had such revelations, which is not the case, they could not deviate from the Word and spirit of Christ, or else they would be only imagination, seduction and satanic deception." - Menno Simons

"I have little confidence in those persons who speak of having received direct revelations from the Lord, as though he appeared otherwise than by and through the gospel. His word is so full, so perfect, that for God to make any fresh revelation to you or me is quite
needless. To do so would be to put a dishonour upon the perfection of that word." - CH Spurgeon

RE : /// PP I'm assuming based on the quotes above that you did not accept tge reports of Muslims coming to Christ through dreams and visions. Is this correct? ///

An ex Mormon Family visited our congregation, I was told by some whom knew them personally that they left the Mormon Church when the Dad was in deep prayer and the Lord told him to take off his undergarments.

I have no reason to doubt that.

I believe those type of examples are different than what Menno Simons and Spurgeon where warning against.

I am not a fan of MacArthur, that is why I did not quote him.

I was following the 'story' of going from something more sure to something
totally obscure that nobody can verify anymore. Personal experiences of
other people. From the Bible of true wisdom to the short form of "let's talk
to Jesus, He communicates only directly now".

a "pastor" initially questioned the validity of what the word says:

2 Timothy 3:15  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,
which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in
Christ Jesus.

So Paul does call the scriptures holy, and people with a different mindset
or spirit most likely will not. Otherwise you would agree with Paul,
and not with an accusation that sounds coming from the direct opposite
spectrum. It sounds like that because it does come from somewhere else

and it's not a minor case, Paul talks about "makes you wise unto salvation
through faith which is in Christ Jesus." So the Bible is instrumental through faith
unto salvation. Not a small thing to overlook, or worse, deny.

Paul never said go to your bedroom and Jesus will manifest
himself to you. There is no instant fix short cut, the American instant fix
is not leading to wisdom unto salvation by faith in Jesus Christ .

"Jesus only" sounds interesting in theory, but I have no idea of what Jesus
you are talking about. The reference point is missing. It could be the Jesus
of Schuller that also used that phrase "bibliolatry" - what fits his 33rd FM degree

as I understand actually a majority in America thinks of Robert Schuler and
Norman Peal ref. by PP as being 'Christians', like for example here:

"i am protestant Presbyterian... and i go to church and i love god and i love
my church... and... the great Norman Vincent Peale was my pastor" - Trump

Norman Vincent Peale
http://www.letusreason.org/Poptea2.htm

Any position where the importance of the Bible is downplayed like the Bearmaster
version or the Charismatic version leaves you without compass when confronted
with supernatural spirits. and their big errors they bring with them, doctrinal as well
as experience wise.

And people will assume everything spiritual is Holy Spirit spiritual. To my surprise
the american christian community invites people with the "2 gods theory" as these
two above that claim to be Christians to minister to them. And they don't know or want
to know the difference, it seems to 'feel' the same to many as long we all have 'a good
time in the spirit' in our hour of power. I think it's ok to claim 'babyhood' for a while,
and call occultism christianity - but sooner or later you need to add some wisdom
or just wait for judgment, since God always allows unholy mixtures for a while only.

RE : /// as I understand actually a majority in America thinks of Robert Schuler and
Norman Peal ref. by PP as being 'Christians', like for example here:.......... ///

Biblical Faith is Believing what God says.

The power of positive thinking is : believe in yourself , tell yourself things that are not true / visualize that they are true and if you believe hard enough they will come true.

I believe that those are two opposing messages.

add for clarity

I have come back to SI and see that you all are still going around this thing with Blaine.

My one and only post on the other thread, maybe was not explained very well. I still don't understand why any Christian would ever won't to classify a book that gives us the precious Holy Word of God as a book that is not Holy. The phrase was "the Bible is not a holy book" which is sad to even state such a thing. It is not how people use the Bible that makes it Holy or unholy. It is just the fact that we are so blessed to have the Holy Spirit written Word on paper so that we can read it. The Holy Spirit makes it alive in us.

The Word and the Holy Spirit are one. Let's say a person gets saved by believing in Jesus and is born of the Spirit. Well the true Holy Spirit will never speak from himself apart from the Word of God. Jesus said clearly that the Holy Spirit will glorify me who is the Word.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Holy Spirit makes the Word of God come alive in you. Everything the Holy Spirit will say will line up with the written Word because the written Word came from the Holy Spirit. The more you read the written Word that the Holy Spirit wrote, and the more you surrender your life to the Lord Jesus, and continue to be filled with the Holy Spirit the more you will become like Jesus who is the Word of God.

We will never be able to grow as Christians properly without the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God. We must become people of the book (the Word of God) by reading it continually and allowing the Holy Spirit to work it in us.

There a lot of people who are going to be very disappointed when they stand before God because they used the Word of God improperly. There is also going to be a lot people with the excuse of I didn't know that Lord but He is going to say depart from me I never knew you. You see they had access to His Holy Word that was written down on paper, but they never read it like they should and fell in love with the One who had the Holy Spirit come upon Holy men to write down Gods Holy Word.

Blessings to all!