The Azusa Now Live Conference is going on in Cleveland Ohio and you can watch live by going to God TV and hit stream live or live events.
It began yesterday afternoon and goes through tonight. For those who are praying for revival, renewal, awakening, I highly encourage you to watch this event and also go back and watch the Azusa Now Video sessions from the Los Angeles conference 2016.
I have quite a few friends and acquaintances who went- I used to live in that neck of the woods.
I haven't heard what they thought yet.
Todd:
This is very POWERFUL! I've watched some of the sessions from LA last year and it is truly anointed.
I trust your friends sensed this as well. I came close to going this weekend as Cleveland is only 2 hours away but I am thankful I can watch Live and also go back and watch the reruns.
This is a genuine move of God and not a counterfeit.
Prayers for forgiveness , confession, unity amongst black and white going on right now in Cleveland Live!
This is Amazing!
I do not know anything about this, but I just googled it and found out that...Bethel is partnering with Lou Engle's The Call on this.
I'm sorry, but I would not trust anything coming out of those camps! And God TV??? Be very careful and discerning brethren.
quote" I don't know anything about this"
Should have stopped right there Dave.
respectfully
Rusty
Jhn 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
I attended the event. What I observed was hungry young hearts crying out for Jesus. I believe that this gathering was not only well organized but also well intentioned and sincere. When I and my wife and daughter arrived and entered my first thoughts were "Lord is this part of you"? The scripture above is what was quickened to my mind. What I observed was energetic song and worship in the beginning, some individuals spoke nothing really very deep, maybe spiritual milk, the event brought me way back, almost 35 years and I was reminded much about the early years, that was good. Since I do not follow specific ministries I discern pretty much without any preconceived notions as to anything really. The second set of music leaders started up and there was a noticeable anointing and you could tell that the Lord was present or the anointing was present. The entire time I was there through out most of it I kept my mind not only on what was happening there but also with a listening ear and lifting prayers to The Lord Jesus in conversation. Continually scripture like "those who are not against us are for us" and a few passages from the division of the tribes of Israel came to mind. Some of what Paul penned, etc...
I did marvel at their amazing use of current technology and how they employed it to connect with each other and propagate the gospel, it was really wonderful. The weakness and the one thing that saddened me and broke my heart was the lack of real leadership on the ground level( after event). I believe those on the platform were sincere but they were not shepherds they did not posses that type of heart and calling, except for the one gentle man who wore the dread locks and gave his testimony, and as of yet he is refusing,"I believe", to accept the responsibility that the Lord is dealing with him in this matter, he has been on my heart for the purposes of prayer since the event. I believe he is being called to a place in service that is moving him out of his comfort zone.
The revival everyone is expecting will come but will not be like what everyone expects Mal 3:1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
I will conclude with a testimony of a Christophany I had of Jesus Christ. For a period of time I desired a face to face with Jesus, I've had a lot of supernatural manifestations since the Lord saved me, one night quite suddenly The Lord manifested in my home not more than 10 feet from me, I feel on the floor as dead and could not breath, with what little strength I had I begged Him to turn His face from me,I hated my wretchedness and loathed my person at that moment, my mind was flooded with several scriptures in an instant(I will not elaborate here, they were very personal), what little I did see of His form was pure like molten glass with no imperfection His presence was so weighty I thought I was going to die, than as fast as He appeared He was gone, at least in the sense of what was.
The church in America anyway is going to have a finial call an awakening, if you will, maybe a revival, the result will be more gut wrenching than anyone will ever believe could be possible. Whats exposed will be burned away and like Jacob of old most will come out of this experience having wrestled with God and conquered by The Son of God, where the saints walk will forever be changed. God Bless Bro DMiller
Thanks for the testimony bro DMiller.
Although I also am quite skeptical these days, may it never be that I become an obstacle to what God is doing.
May Your kingdom come and Your will be done dear Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! Amen
by rufnrust on 2017/7/25 3:13:59
quote" I don't know anything about this"
Should have stopped right there Dave.
_____________________________________________________________
So I should not check out things that are claiming to be a 'move of God'? Just switch of my mind and accept whatever I'm told?
Just some cursory looking at the official websites of 'The Call and Azuza 2017' you can see where this is all coming from. Lou Engle's blog tells how they are basing this movement on a 'so called' Gulliver prophecy from Bob Jones in 2005 and a subsequent 'angelic' visit to his widow. Come on, wake up folk!
Bob Jones and all this Kansas City Prophet crowd have be saying and doing the same things for years! It's the same old, same old...
I desire to see true revival, but I can guarantee this will not be it.
Of course you can just say I'm a negative, unbelieving person and you will enthusiastically go along with this hype. But it is too easy to be seduced by these events. Even Leonard Ravenhill was taken in by the likes of Paul Cain and the KCP back in the day, only much later to realise they were immoral false prophets. Our desire to see God move can unfortunately blind us to deception.
We been here so many times before, even on this forum with folk claiming this is the 'real thing' only for it all to disintegrate and disappear. Why would you trust these guys who got is so wrong before and who's theology is at the very least very suspect??
Anyway, I'm not going to argue with anyone over this, just sharing my concern and asking folk to check it out.
Brother Dave,
I have grown up in the Charismatic stream of doing church and still believe in the valid expression of the Spirit and His gifts but I also am put off by the excesses displayed by some of these men and movements.
Only the Lord knows who are truly His and who He saves through the preaching of Jesus, in spite of them, not because of them.
Blessings,
Brother Dave,
The scripture admonishes us to "prove all things and holdfast to what is good." (1 Thess. 5:21).
There will be always those that want to criticize an event like this and attempt to discredit it by bringing forth certain names, but most of the critics did not watch the event, and if you would have you would have seen true repentance and reconciliation taking place.
I do not go along with the most extreme elements of those that are being criticized such as Bethel Church, but I will always be in agreement with my brothers and sisters that have a heart of repentance, and are praying and interceding for revival and awakening to come to our nation.
Hello Brother William:
I to believe in the gifts of the spirit as you may remember. I do not wish to debate what is genuine and what is not but here is a portion of scripture that I personally take into consideration when it comes to judging a matter or people.
Luke 9:47-50 KJV And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him, (48) And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great. (49) And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. (50) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
I recently came across the Azusa Now conference just about a week ago. The reason it came to my attention is because I was told Todd White would be a speaker there and I happen to like what Todd is doing and that is preaching and demonstrating the love of Christ and God is confirming that preaching with signs following.
I watched a good portion of this conference and if I was able I would have attended. But here are the facts.
We cannot let what others do wrongly or ignorantly define who Jesus Christ is.
The believer, if he believes will have signs following his ministry and the foundation of that ministry is love.
I will not defend any of these men and I won't let them define what the word has already confirmed for the believer. Jesus and the word stand alone and need know defense.
I am not saying you are guilty of this whatsoever William, but the when people say that all charismatic expression is null and void because of a few IS throwing the baby out with the bath water.
As I said in another post regarding revival. I am not worried about revival in the church, if we as Christians will walk in the POWER that is already ours and preach the Gospel and share the love of Christ "out there" people will get saved and revival will take care of itself.
Here is an example in my own life. When I was 17 I met my first Born Againers, they shared the love of God with me, and when I got really sick they laid hands on me and I was instantly healed.
I was not a Christian and was opposing their definition of what Christianity was as I was a good catholic. They did not wait till I got saved or accepted Christ to "Do Good", while I was yet dead in my sins and rejecting their Jesus, God healed me.
The moral of my story was, through their expression of unconditional love and demonstrating the power of God through my healing made me take notice of their Jesus.
I like what DMiller shared because he was there and I spoke with him just this morning about his experience. One thing he will confirm is that the anointing of God was present. One of the negatives was the lack of leadership on the floors and in the stands to minister to the people there.
My response to that is/was we shouldn't be relying on the shepherds. Outreaches like this should have Holy Spirit faith filled believers attending such events so that we can minister, pray, and love on one another. It's not the shepherds responsibility, it's the responsibility of the one's the shepherds equip.
I watched one of the episodes from the Azusa Now in LA from last year, episode 1 to be exact. There was a Catholic Charismatic who preached there and he was Italian and needed an interpreter. At the time of his preaching it was undeniable to me that his preaching was anointed of God and I DID NOT KNOW HE WAS A CATHOLIC CHARISMATIC AT THE TIME.
If I had, I would have likely prejudged him and turned it off, but since I did not know I continued to listen. After the negative was brought up about Lou Engle whom I never heard of before last week I decided to do a Google search to see if I to could find the dirt on him.
In my search I found the name of the Italian guy Matteo Calisi and read how Lou Engle kissed this mans feet and that Matteo also kissed Lou's feet as a from of submission/servanthood to one another. As an ex catholic I know all about bowing to kiss the Popes ring, etc.
So I end up looking up Matteo Calisi and I watch one message he gave in a Evangelical church. Just like the Azusa Now in LA message, the anointing was there, he did not mention catholic doctrine, tradition, or the system. He only preached Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
When one is filled with the Holy Spirit, he will discern via the Holy Spirit. It is a given that we should be able to fully discern between the true and the false.
So here is what I shared with DMiller this morning concerning our error in judging by the outward appearance and not by the Spirit.
When I got saved my primary target and goal was to prove how wrong the catholic religion is. As I pondered in the very early hours this morning this man who professes to be a charismatic here is what God said, yes, I said it.
God said we as Christians get pigeon holed through our own self righteous religious pride. When we minister or I should say unminister to catholics we focus on what is wrong with their religion, doctrine, and tradition and something gets lost in the fray. Do you know what gets lost? The catholic, the person. We are so focused in the church today to shoot holes in everything people are doing and not doing and we are missing the people.
When I was witnessed to, the love of Jesus was preached, not one word was mentioned about my sin by the preachers. HOWEVER, my sin was brought before me in my quite time when I was alone by the Holy Spirit and I was convicted and knew I had to deal with my sin.
When I first got saved I was at total odds with my own mother, for years I chipped away at her religion and it got me NO WHERE. One day God said, "What are you doing?" It was a revelation! It wasn't until I quit condemning her religion and just began to focus on Jesus and how much He loved her that God did a quick work in saving my mother. All the years I wasted brings tears to my eyes.
Find me one verse in the New Testament where Jesus preached condemnation or judgement to the lost. He only preached it to the religious and self righteous who were supposed to know better. But for the lost, He came to set the captives free and He did good to them, healed them, and fed them.
William I am not preaching at you and I trust you know that and discern that. I was going to post anyway after brother Daryl shared his experience at the conference.
But here is the end time objective that God has already put into place. He has raised up a people who get the message of the love of God and are empowered by the Holy Spirit.
These people are already in the FIELDS working, sowing, watering, and reaping an end time harvest. More workers will be coming as those who have freely been given will be freely giving.
These people are fulfilling the great commission and God is confirming with signs following. Only the religious will shoot holes in the genuine work of the Holy Spirit.
Again I am not promoting Todd White, Lou Engle, or Azusa Now. But I believe in what they are doing, if it is not of God it will come to nought, BUT, if it is of God what is my motivation to condemn it or overthrow it other than my self righteous puffed up religious arrogant pride?
There was music and things said and done I do not ascribe to at this conference but that is not my problem. I know God is fully capable of working out the bad as I am an example of that work as well as everyone here.
I would encourage everyone here to Youtube Todd White and the specific video titled, "Father of Lights". Todd is a young man who got radically saved and delivered and just happens to believe God. God does many mighty things for Todd's ministry in this video.
Another man I was hesitant to mention here on SI is a man by the name of Dan Mohler who is a traveling itinerant Pastor.
Dan by Todds own words is Todd's spiritual father ( again, it is a term I do not ascribe to and Dan would also deny so don't write me letters). Dan is preaching and demonstrating the end time message. He is out of Pennsylvania and you will never see his itinerary as he will not make it public.
He is an extremely humble man that does not want to be elevated or put on a pedestal. He only speaks in very small churches that are not mainstream that invite him. You cannot contact Dan, speak to Dan, or email Dan.
He is one of a very few men I have been listening to for the past 4 - 5 months now. I have employed his method and pattern ( nothing new by the way, its always been in the bible)and guess what? It works!
So you can write it down. Souls are only going to be saved through preaching and expressing love to the lost and especially the one's who don't appear to deserve it by the naked (religious) eye.
While in the back of my mind the devil wants me to think I have really stirred up a hornets nest by some of the things I have said, I want to challenge you to listen, watch, and discern for yourselves if God is not working with these men.
Again the Focus is GOD, not Dan, Todd, or Robby Dawkins. I will go so far as to say though that I believe Dan Mohler to be a modern day John the Baptist. I like his message, and I am running with it. I know of one dear sister that got to see Dan in April and she said he is as down home humble as they come.
He is a lover of God and his neighbor, so before you pick up your rocks, take a listen first.
One final thought, you can Google anything you want to find dirt on anyone or anything. Whatever you want Google to find or say, either for or against, it is aimed to please.
Don't let Google usurp the authority of the Holy Spirit.
Okay, I am getting off my soap box now, and no God is not in my box, I let Him out a long time ago.
BD
//When I first got saved I was at total odds with my own mother, for years I chipped away at her religion and it got me NO WHERE. One day God said, "What are you doing?" It was a revelation! It wasn't until I quit condemning her religion and just began to focus on Jesus and how much He loved her that God did a quick work in saving my mother. All the years I wasted brings tears to my eyes//
This is almost exactly what happened with my mother in law. My wife was born again after she met me- she had grown up catholic. After this I would sometimes point out to her all the faults the the RCC and it made her bristle because she had very fond memories or her church growing up. Her mom saw that my wife was different after she left RC but only in good ways. We never bashed the RCC because that would have been destructive. Gradually her curiosity made it possible to share the gospel with her without offending her religious sensibilities.
Brother Mike:
Thank you for your encouraging and uplifting words. I do find your wisdom and counsel a blessing on many matters.
As I mentioned to Brother William, I did watch a good portion of the event both Saturday and Sunday and I agree that there was genuine repentance taking place.
The preaching by many was convicting, anointed, and inspired. When I hear the word of God being preached to an audience that I know contains the lost I am usually overcome with emotion and tears.
To hear the TRUTH and knowing that IT cuts like a knife right to the heart just blesses me when I think about those who are hearing it. I mean really hearing, because if they really hear it will produce a response of brokenness, contriteness, Godly sorrow, and repentance.
While there is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents, I on the other hand am in tears in a good way for sure.
I also mentioned to William about Todd White, the guy in dreadlocks as DMiller said, he does these conferences called Power and Love. They go to a meeting place and have church, praise, worship, encouragement, etc..
Then, they hit the streets. Restaurants, stores, streets, etc. and the put into practice what they learned. They are just loving people and stepping out in faith.
I was witnessing to a young man at Taco Bell recently, he was a catholic and he asked what the difference was between him and I. The old me would have blown his religion to smitherenes, I just had no desire to go there, he shared some real convictions he has about God and I encouraged him that as He draws nigh to God, God will draw nigh to him.
I left him with several tracts and told him that God loves him. He was really appreciative and would have stayed at my table longer had not some customers come in he had to wait on.
I hope you have a chance to look up the men I mentioned to DMiller and trust you will find it a blessing and uplifting.
BD
Thanks David!
Wonderful to read the passion for the Lord and for people in your words.
We are all influenced by what we see and hear, both positive and negative, and really need discernment from the Holy Spirit, especially in these last of the last days. We must walk in the light we have and pursue love and doing good to all men, while we wait expectantly for our Lord's appearing.
Of course, sound doctrine must be held fast and error refuted, especially among those who publicly declare themselves Christians, and some brethren are more gifted in that way and probably provide balance to us more emotional types 😊
I agree that nothing should distract us from the simplicity of being devoted to Christ and from the task given to us all, to be witnesses unto Him.
As Paul said, some preach Christ from selfish motives, but he didn't care as long as Christ was preached.
" For me to live is Christ and to die is gain"
Blessings,
Todd White came to a church we attended a while back. I was struck by his passion and faith. He was definitely not your normal Christian guy. Is he perfect on every point of doctrine? I have no idea-- but he does things daily that I am too chicken to do, so I am not going to criticize.
Brother Todd:
What a wonderful testimony regarding your mother in law! Thank you for sharing it as it is very encouraging to see how the Holy Spirit leads and guides us in our ministry to others.
Yes, I agree regarding Todd. His passion is undeniable and he is simply putting legs to his ministry. As I mentioned earlier Todd has his own calling that he is fulfilling. If you get a chance to watch the Father of Lights it will take a couple of sittings as it is nearly three hours long.
I did it in two because once you start watching it is hard to turn off.
Dan Mohler has a number of videos on Youtube and you will know without a doubt his passion for the gospel.
But here is a short testimony from Robby Dawkins regarding his ministry on an airplane, it is a blessing!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x-HfwWs6Sk
BD
Amen William! I somehow am not surprised by your response brother we both are as the 120 in the upper room!
I love the unity of the Spirit! God love you brother!
BD
For information and your further research....
We have been advised on here about a Roman Catholic Charismatic, Matteo Calisi as being 'anointed'. Please check out the following websites (which are not anti, but his own promoting websites). You will see what this is all about. The motive is ecumenical unity between Rome and the protestant church, in particular Rome has identified the Pentecostal movement as the largest christian movement and as such I believe they want to bring them into the RC fold.
You think the Pope and the Roman church will give up their power base??
http://unitedinchrist.com/matteo-calisi/
Here is the next big event they are planning in October with such biblically ignorant false prophets such as Copeland. https://www.kairos2017.com/
Check out the video of Copeland and Calisi together and hear Copeland denounce the reformation.
Other speakers are Cardinal Daniel DiNardo, John Arnott, Mike Bickle, Archbishop Joseph F. Naumann and Lou Engle (yes him again).
It's a gathering of Roman Catholics and apostate evangelical Charismatics. It's the Harlot Church growing in strength!
Thanks for the info Dave. I will certainly look into it.
We are living in perilous times, indeed.
Jhn 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 21:16
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Matt 7:7- Mat 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
I will not defend the likes of Copeland and company which I see as greedy dogs, but those that were in Cleveland seemed good to me and that Brother White definitely had a mantle and was anointed of The Lord. An interesting side note, years ago when many very popular ministers were falling by reason of secret sins being exposed, one such evangelist came to Canton who had a healing ministry, some of the local Pastors boycotted these meetings. I had a friend who was dieing and he went to that meeting and this fallen evangelist prayed for him and The Lord healed my friend. A short while after this evangelist left town the truth came out in a very public way about his sins and lack of repentance(this evangelist) and it rang all across America, I was talking with several Pastor friends about this time and we were discussing the verified healings that took when the one brother said something that has never left me, he said " God our Father sometimes works "through" a vessel and sometimes He works "around" a vessel, but He always ministers to HIS children who have hungry hearts and cry out to Him". I never forgot that.
The church almost gets superstitious when we think that a preacher may be off and we forget that the Lord knows them that are His and He is able to keep them.....etc...... Now that's not to say we should just follow after a man blindly, at all times we need to search the scriptures and be good Bereans. That said what DFella posted about some in attendance on stage was solid.
Galatians 1:
"I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ."
"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."
"As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."
2 Corinthians 11:3-4
"But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."
"For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted””you may well put up with it!"
Ah, come on Paul, do you really mean they should be accursed (twice)? You don't want to 'throw the baby out with the bath water' do you! What baby? Oh, I see, it's not a baby at all in the water but a wolf in baby clothes!
Hey Dave,
Quote:" Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,"
Now the question arises: What is the true gospel?
If these men are perverting it, in what way are they doing so? Do we on this forum hold fast to the true gospel? Which church body etc are preaching the true gospel?
I ask these questions, not because I disagree with you, but for the sake of all who read, to make these crystal clear.
I know you may not have the time to answer in detail but would appreciate it if and when you can comment.
Blessings,
I can't answer for all the doctrine of any group because I do not follow various groups around and fact check them, I just do not have time, but this one thing I can say is that at the Cleveland event those in attendance had hungry hearts and except for a few foolish statements I heard from one gentleman on the stage those who spoke were spot on doctrinally because they were mainly testifying or just presenting the simplicest of gospel messages. There was an anointing from the Lord there and I believe that this event was pleasing to God the Father and accepted in and by Jesus Christ our Lord who is very God of very God.
As to the scripture you referenced I am in total agreement and I also hear your heart brother and do appreciate where you are coming from, I think that it is good to be very jealous for the Lord, but let us be careful not to try to do angels work in the process of doing The Lords work. Read the passage of the wheats and the tares in order to understand my mind here. Godspeed my brother. DMiller
William,
Yes you are correct I don't have the time to go into all the details of the false gospels being presented, where do you start? We have the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) with their perversion of truth, joined by the WoF false gospel and now all joining together Rome and their false teaching and false Christ.
The gospel as we know is very simple, Christ died for our Sins, was buried and rose the Third day (1 Cor 15:1). The good news (gospel) is that we can receive forgiveness of our sins and the gift of eternal life if we repent from sin and by faith submit our lives to Christ as revealed in the scriptures.
The problem comes when folk add to it and this turns it into another gospel with another Jesus. This was the issue in Galatia that Paul was addressing in his letter. Here they were adding the Law to the gospel and he said it was ANOTHER gospel. Sure they preached Christ, but added to it. In the same way anything added to the gospel changes it and makes it either about works, or about us, our prosperity and happiness or anything else that takes the place of Christ Jesus, including so called 'prophetic messages' that are always false.
As I don't have the time, here is an article that goes into more detail on these things.
ANOTHER GOSPEL ANOTHER JESUS - Let us Reason.
1 Cor. 15:1: "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and in which you stand By which also you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scripture." the Gospel consists of Three points according to the apostle Paul.
1) He died for our SINS 2) He was buried (proving he died). 3) He rose again taking up the same body he came in.
The Gospel concerns Gods son and his work for us to remove our sin . If it is focused on something else other than the cross and his resurrection it is not the gospel of Christ. The Son of God came as the savior (1 Jn 4:14), that he is Lord of the universe (which relates to a triune nature of God). We stand in it by trusting in his work. Salvation is a gift freely given not earned. We work from salvation not toward it. Our part is that we are commissioned to preach it and to make disciples.
2 Cor. 11:3-4 "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted-- you may well put up with it. (you will have to endure it, or you wear it beautifully, and some do)."
another Jesus - (allos) is a primary word; "else," different (in many applications) The name is the same, its the name Jesus from the Bible but it is not the Jesus of the Bible. He is different one, with some similarities on the surface level.
A different Spirit -(heteros)-to number as opposed to some former person or thing the other of two; referring to quality: that is, one that is not of the same nature, form, class, or kind, to be different.
Another Gospel (heteros) of uncertain affinity; different: altered, strange. It is not the same one Paul preached, it has a qualitative difference.
Alterations of the Christian message have always been with us but not since the beginning of the church have they become so rampant and outrageous. Some of the cults would blush at what is now being said from Christian pulpits.
Paul warns Gal 1:6-9: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
Another gospel; the same sort"; heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another of a different sort. "Paul speaks of "a different good (heteros), which is not another" in contrast to any other Gospel which there is none (allos, another like the one he preached),
Angels were always involved in revelation to mankind. Paul under prophetic inspiration warns the believers then and us now of receiving new understanding from a spiritual source that would alter what was first delivered to them. Today so much gets blamed on the Holy Spirit with teachers speaking impromptu from the pulpits.
To be perverted means to twist a thing around, they destroyed it by having additions to grace, distorting the nature of the person and the work of Christ.
To anathematize someone is to label them a false teacher. If someone teaches another gospel that affects who Christ is or how one relates to him , or distorts grace by subtracting or adding any work it becomes another Gospel.They are to be cut off, cast away. anathema- a thing devoted to God without hope of being redeemed, in the O T. if it was an animal it was to be slain; in the N.T. it is person or thing doomed to destruction.
According to those who are new Pentecostal leaders the church, Jesus took on the nature of Satan on the cross, died spiritually, and went to complete the plan of redemption in hell. But he had to be born again. No longer is it a baptism in the Holy Spirit as the "2nd blessing", but now are under an anointing for new revelations. They are changing the very message that can save a sinner by shifting the focus to another place. They also change the nature of Jesus at the cross and afterward.
Lets take a journey into the new revelation knowledge of the more famous promoters, the men of renown.
"When Jesus cried "It is finished!" He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne. He was referring to the Abrahamic Covenant. Jesus' death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption" (Kenneth Copeland, "Jesus - Our Lord of Glory", ( Believer's Voice of Victory, April, 1982, p. 3).
This is a direct assault on the Gods way for salvation Christ's physical death upon the cross. This is not debatable the Bible is absolutely clear in its teaching on this matter. Anyone who has read the NT accounts finds the phrase "it is finished" The Greek word for this term is tetelestai, which means the debt (sin) has been paid in full! To say otherwise is calling Jesus, the Scripture, and the Holy Spirit liars.
"Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid our price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God" (Frederick K. C. Price, Ever Increasing Faith Messenger, June 1990, p. 7).
This is what Price thinks of the sacrifice of the unblemished lamb, that if this is the case, two sinners could have obtained it. What does Peter say (2 Pt.2:1) who will bring in heresies that will destroy, even denying the Lord that bought them. They change what Christ said to the thief on the cross, instead of "Today you will be with Me in Paradise," He should have said, "Today you will be incarcerated with Me suffering in hell." Not too hopeful of a promise is it.
"Somewhere between the time He [Jesus] was nailed to the cross and when He was in the Garden of Gethsemane””somewhere in there””He died spiritually. Personally, I believe it was while He was in the garden." (Frederick K. C. Price, Identification #3 ( Ever Increasing Faith Ministries, 1980) tape #FP545, side 1)
If he was separated (dying spiritually in the garden) then why would he wait until the third hour on the cross the cry out "my God my God why have you forsaken me" Price shifts the focus to some other time.One can only wonder why they don' t want to see the glory in the crucifixion as the Apostle Paul did! To die spiritually meaning at the very least separation before he had the sins laid on him is to destroy the whole OT teaching of the blood put on the altar. To have the redemption in another place at another time destroys its very purpose. These become fables the very thing we are warned of in Scripture.
2 Tim 4:4-5 " and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry."Are you being watchful ? Or are you listening and believing what certain men are teaching. If not your work as an evangelist will be hindered and your ministries calling will suffer. that's what Paul said , its not my opinion.
Titus 1:14 " not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth." Even in their day there were fables circulating from those who did not yield to the truth. Its been almost 2,000 years and not much has changed.
"The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in his own spirit. And at that moment that He did so He cried, 'My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?' You don't know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? That use to bug me. I said, 'Why in the world would you want to put a snake up there - the sign of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb on that pole?" And the Lord said, "Because it was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross.'He (Jesus) said, "I accepted in my own spirit, spiritual death; and the light was turned out." (Kenneth Copeland, What Happened From the Cross to the Throne? cassette tape 1990, Side B).
Ask yourself is this truth, is it written in Scripture or are they going beyond the written word for their information ? If so, Then it is a fable. Why would the Lord tell Copeland it was a sign of Satan when there is not even a hint of this in the he word! While there are numerous problems to be answered with Copeland's conversation with God and being communicated false doctrine. To become sin in his nature does away with the lamb of God who now becomes the lamb of Satan. The only way the cross would be in reference to Satan is that Christ overcame him on it. Col.2:14-15 makes it clear he triumphed at the cross, not in hell. But the faith teachers are saying he became defeated on the cross, that's not the Bibles view, that's theirs.
Col 2:15 " Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it." At the CROSS!
Gloria Copeland agrees of course with her husband "He (Jesus) paid the price for Adam's sin. He suffered in His own body, and more important, in His own spirit. Jesus experienced the same spiritual death that entered man in the Garden of Eden." (G. Copeland, "God's Will For You", Fort Worth, Texas, K. Copeland Ministries, p.5)
This means that Jesus became a sinner just like all of mankind. He was born sinless and died a sinner, how's that for a switch.
Kenneth E. Hagin who is Copelands discipler states, "spiritual death means something more than separation from God. Spiritual death also means having Satan's nature... Jesus tasted death--spiritual death--for every man." K. Hagin, The Name of Jesus, 1981) p.31.
Hagin explains, "...just as receiving eternal life means that we have the nature of God in us, spiritual death means having Satan's nature." K. Hagin, Redeemed, Tulsa, OK, Faith Library, 1966, p.29) As Adam received Satan's nature so did Jesus.
Eph. 5:2 makes it clear Jesus did not become a unholy sinner on the cross, but was a holy sin offering who 'gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a beautiful fragrant aroma, Not a stench of sin!
Benny .Hinn, "Ladies and gentlemen, the serpent is a symbol of Satan. Jesus Christ knew the only way he would stop Satan was by becoming one in nature with him. You say, What did you say? What blasphemy is this? No, you hear this! He did not take my sin; He became my sin. Sin is the nature of hell. Sin is what made Satan…It was sin that made Satan. Jesus said, "I’ll be sin! I’ll go to the lowest place! I’ll go to the origin of it! I won’t just take part in it, I’ll be the totality of it!" When Jesus became sin, sir, He took it from A to Z and said, "No more!" Think about this: He became flesh, that flesh might become like Him. He became death, so dying man can live. He became sin, so sinners can be righteous in Him. He became one with the nature of Satan, so all those who had the nature of Satan can partake of the nature of God." (Benny Hinn, Benny Hinn program on TBN (December 15, 1990).
First of all the origin of Sin is not Hell but from man, it is in our nature.
K.Copeland "The spirit of Jesus accepting that sin and making it to be sin, He separated from His God and at that moment He's a mortal man. Capable of failure, capable of death. And if Satan is capable of overpowering Him there, he'll win the universe and mankind is doomed. Don't get the idea that Jesus was incapable of failure because if He had been, it would have been illegal." (What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303)
Not only does he have Satan's nature and has the Devil win (temporarily) but the Son who is God failed.
"He [Jesus] allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell....He allowed Himself to come under Satan's control...every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him....They tortured Him beyond anything anybody had ever conceived. For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer." (Kenneth Copeland, "The Price of It All," 3.)
Talk about a fable, how does he know this? By the new revelation of the Jesus he serves, the one who failed became a sinner went to hell and was born again.
"For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer. Some people don't want to believe that. They want to believe that after His death, Jesus just stayed in that upper region of Sheol that the Bible calls paradise, but they're mistaken! If He had simply stayed there, there would have been no price paid for sin." (Believer's Voice of Victory, Vol. 19, No. 9, Sept. 1991)
Here Copeland makes it absolutely clear that the price had to be paid by suffering beyond the cross.This means he had no victory at the cross but he lost and it was victory 3 days later in Hell.
"The Devil forgot to take into consideration that Jesus hadn’t sinned Himself but, rather, had merely become sin as a result of the sin of others." (Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne 1990 audio tape #02-0017, side 2.)
"... Jesus died two deaths. He died physically and He died spiritually. When Jesus was made to be sin, He was separated from God... When His blood poured out, it did not atone. It did away with the handwriting of the ordinances that were against us... Jesus spent three horrible days and nights in the bowels of this earth getting back for you and me our rights with God..." (doctrinal statement dated March 12, 1979)
Hagin denies unequivocally the "finished work on the cross. "Hagin states "He (Jesus) tasted spiritual death for every man. And his spirit and inner man went to hell in my place. Can’t you see that? PHYSICAL DEATH WOULDN’T REMOVE YOUR SINS. He tasted death for every man. He’s talking about spiritual death." (how Jesus obtained his name tape # 44HO1 side 1)
Copeland repeats his mentor by saying "The death of Jesus Christ was not a physical death alone. If it had been a physical death, Abel would have paid the price for mankind. He was the first man that died because of honoring God and His Word. If it had been a physical death only, it wouldn't have worked! And if He hadn't died spiritually, that body never would have died." (What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303)
According to these new revelators Christianity has been mistaken for almost 1900 years. To put the redemption before or after the cross makes this another Gospel. It denies the sufficiency of the sacrifice. It was crucial that Jesus was sacrificed on that day at that hour in that way. If it occurred any other time it would not have been accepted by the Father.If Jesus became a sinner (actually worse to take the very nature of Satan) then he would need redemption. But he couldn't redeem himself since he was no longer the unblemished lamb but sinful. Neither could he redeem any of us. If Jesus actually became sin as claimed then he no longer is an unblemished sacrifice Deut.15:21 tells us if any sacrifice had a fault or blemish it was not accepted.
All the animals chosen for the sin offering were types of Christ, according to Lev. 4:3, it was a bull without defect; Lev. 4:23, a goat without defect; Lev. 4:32, a lamb without defect. They were all carefully inspected for any spot or blemish. In 1 Cor. 5:7, Jesus was the Paschal Lamb. As a substitutional sacrifice in the scapegoat motif the one who offered up the sacrifices would place his hand on the animal, signifying a symbolic transfer of sin and guilt (Lev. 4:4, 24,33) The sacrifice became the covering for the sin, God looked on the blood not the sin itself. Isa. 53:6 "...and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all" It was the Father who laid his hand on Christ to be judged in our place. The sacrificial animal did not become sin itself, sin was symbolically charged to it, if it became blemished or in this case sin, it was worthless.
So If Jesus became sin or a demoniac (having the nature of Satan) God could not accept it, he would be a sinful offering. The Bible has a different story 1 Pt.1:19 tells us he was without blemish or defect on the cross. Lev.6:25 tells us the sin offering was most holy before God (not most sinful). Christ did not become sin itself, (2 Cor.5:21)" became" (in the Greek Metonym) means became a sin offering not became sin himself he was a vicarious atonement, he suffered in our place and took our penalty of judgment. In the OT typology the priest would lay his hands on the offering to symbolize the transfer of his sin and guilt. Jesus was the sin bearer , he carried it, not became it.
They replace Jesus saying, "Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit," With their theology of , "Satan, into your hands I commend My spirit." (temporarily, until he's born again)
When Jesus died he dismissed his own Spirit showing he had control something a mere man or a demon could not. He gave his spirit over to the Father not to Satan. he cried it is finished not it is continued. The veil of the Temple was ripped open immediately showing that God the father accepted his Sons work and it was completed, making the way open to all Heb.10
How can he be forgiven of being sinful in his nature. The faith teachers have the solution but its no better than what has already occurred, it progresses to even worse.
1 Cor. 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. If Christ became sin itself and went to hell to be tortured that means he is accursed. So this proves it is not revelation from the true Spirit of God but another Spirit. Heb.9:14 disagrees with Copelands conversations with God, these revelations are not from the Lord we love and serve but from someone who has a lot less respect.
Here's more from our Modern Gnostics spiritual propaganda. A reborn Jesus in Hell, suffering in Hell, paying our debt in Hell, all from new revelation knowledge.
"Satan and all the demons of hell thought that they had Him bound and they threw a net over Jesus and they dragged Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence." (F. Price, Ever Increasing Faith Messenger, Newsletter Crenshaw Christian Centre, Inglewood, CA. June 1980, p.7)
"That Word of the living God went down into that pit of destruction and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life. He began to look like something the devil had never seen before." ("The Price of it All," Believer's Voice of Victory (September 1991)
Jesus was not tortured by Satan in hell. First of all Satan isn't in Hell and he has no intention of going there, and he certainly doesn't rule there (maybe they have been listening to too much heavy metal music). Yet he will be confined there with a lot of company. Any demons that are there are under lock and key (chains of darkness) they are not roaming free to torture everyone and check back in for a good nights sleep. Read 2 Pt.2:4 and Jude 6, besides Satan is not in control of Hell Jesus is. The only thing that should go to Hell is this atrocious doctrine of theirs.
So how does Jesus escape the torture of his enemies who now have victory over him?
"He [Jesus] was literally being reborn before the devil's very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles.... Jesus was born again-the firstborn from the dead the Word calls Him-and He whipped the devil in his own backyard. He took everything he had away from him. He took his keys and his authority away from him." (p. 4-6.)
"It is important for us to realize that a born again man defeated Satan....Colossians 1:18 refers to Jesus as the firstborn from the dead....He was the first man to be reborn under the new covenant." K. Copeland, "Jesus our Lord of Glory": 3 )
There is hardly a difference between what Copeland does to this passage and the Jehovah's Witnesses, both twist it beyond recognition. Notice he changes firstborn to reborn. The Greek word for firstborn (prototokos), has nothing to do with a new birth in the spirit but means primacy and pre-eminence in ruling It explains Christ's supremacy over all creation as the first resurrected eternal man as Rev.1:5 states the firstborn from the dead and ruler over the kings of the earth.In col.1:18"the firstborn from the dead , that in all things. He may have preeminence (his rightful place as the sovereign Lord.)
"Why did He (Jesus) need to be begotten, or born? Because He became like we were: separated from God. Because He tasted spiritual death for every man....Jesus was the first person that was ever born again." (K. Hagin, How Jesus Obtained His Name, Tulsa: Rhema)
Jesus is privileged to be the first born of many brethren, and they do mean "born again."
"Jesus ... was raised up a born-again man ... The day I realized that a born-again man had defeated Satan, hell, and death, I got so excited ...!" (Believer's Voice of Victory , September, 1991)
Why would this excite anyone? Well here's the answer . "The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, ‘Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don’t let your tradition trip you up.’ He said, ‘Think this way””a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.’ And I threw my Bible down…. I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.’ He said, ‘You are the very image, the very copy of that one.’ I said, ‘Well now you don’t mean, you couldn’t dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?’ He said, ‘Oh yeah, if you’d had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could’ve done the same thing, ‘cause you’re a reborn man too." (Kenneth Copeland, Substitution and Identification (Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1989), tape #00-0202, side 2.) Copeland demotes Christ and elevates himself, all that is required is to know the word. But Jesus was the word made flesh! No one can come close to the knowledge and wisdom that was intrinsically in his nature, HE'S GOD!
Benny Hinn can barely contain himself when the same Spirit starts to speak to him on this: "My, you know, whoosh! The Holy Ghost is just showing me some stuff. I’m getting dizzy! I’m telling you the truth …He’s [speaking of Jesus] in the underworld now. God isn’t there, the Holy Ghost isn’t there, and the Bible says He was begotten. Do you know what the word begotten means? It means reborn. Do you want another shocker? Have you been begotten? So was He. Don’t let anyone deceive you. Jesus was reborn. You say, ‘What are you talking about?’…He was reborn. He had to be reborn…If He was not reborn, I could not be reborn, I would never be reborn. How can I face Jesus and say, "Jesus, You went through everything I’ve gone through, except the new birth?" (Benny Hinn, Our Position ‘In Christ,’ Part 1 Orlando Christian Center, 1991)
Hinn agrees with Copeland that Jesus lost his deity became a sinner and needed to have the new birth. Remember this is "his Holy Ghost" telling him this. What this means is that it is the same spirit that heals people. What Spirit do you think this is? Not the true one with lies like this one.
Kenneth Hagin states "He (Jesus) tasted spiritual death for every man. And his spirit and inner man went to hell in my place. Can’t you see that? PHYSICAL DEATH WOULDN’T REMOVE YOUR SINS. He tasted death for every man. He’s talking about spiritual death." (how Jesus obtained his name tape # 44HO1 side 1)
Much like his discipler, Kenneth Copeland also states "If it had been a physical death only, it wouldn't have worked! And if He hadn't died spiritually, that body never would have died." (What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303)
In Peter 3:18, Peter states that Christ was "Put to death in the flesh, but quickened (made alive) by the Spirit." This tells us he died in the flesh but was alive in the Spirit. He did not die spiritually and suffer the same fate as sinful man in hell, even temporarily. He didn't lose his deity, God cannot change his nature! This does not mean that He died spiritually and now he is spiritually resurrected, or by the Spirit. It means he died in the body and his body resurrected.
Acts 2:27, 13:35-37 tells us God would not let him see corruption or decay, this is a term for mortality and fallen humanity. He is contrasted to David who saw sin. Christ was separated on the cross for a time and restored before he died.
Acts 2:27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. Vs.31-32"he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. "This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses." Notice it says in both soul and body. It is this Jesus the apostles preached, this is not true for the new apostles.
To say God died spiritually the way they define it is a new revelation, but not a biblical one. Heb.10:10 says "we are set apart by the offering of Jesus body once for all." Redemption was and is through the blood. Scripture does not point to any event continuing afterward as part of our redemption. There is no salvation apart from His blood sacrifice, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.
So much more could be quoted and said but this is sufficient evidence to make it clear they care little about the historic Christian faith but are leading the Church to another place with another Gospel and another Christ. Your choice is to either follow the truth or men who claim to have new truth. Not much of a choice if you love the Lord.
Dear Brother Dave, I think we all get it and even agree with you, but that singular event was on target. AND that brother with the dread locks (White?) is a "Choice vessel" in the hands of God. He will not be touched.
So now pick one of the false prophets from your list above and what would you like to see happen to such a one?Because I can tell you that there is a day of wrath that has been appointed for those who are wolves and devour the sheep/lambs.
BTW I went to an assembly that exposed the Jesus died spiritually doctrine almost 35 years ago and named names back than, some of whom are on your list.
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