Gifts of the Spirit

Dear brothers and sisters,

I wonder if anybody can recommend me any book, article or sermon with sound doctrine on the gifts of the Spirit. I read yesterday through some of the scriptures concerning the topic and listened also to a sermon by Paris Reidhead. But I am still meditating on the topic - how do I recognize what is my gift?

And I realize that the gifts are given for the profit of the church, so realizing or finding out what gift God has given me - will be a blessing to all!

If you are willing, you can also share your testimony, how you have found that out!

Yours in Christ,

In your past posts I have sensed your sincere commitment to the Lord so I will risk a lot of criticism on the forum to share some of my personal experience. I am part of a denomination which does not in my opinion put enough emphasis on the work of the Spirit in the life and work of a believer yet I know my calling is to remain where I am and mentor young people who are hungering for God. I sense a strong moving of God in very recent years in my religious circle in drawing the hearts of younger people to desire a dynamic experience with Himself which my generation has failed to portray.
First, through some very adverse experiences, the Lord yanked me out of the mainstream of my religious culture to begin to reveal Himself as a caring "Dad" Who desired to direct my life in a very real and personal way. With this, I began to experience some gifts of the Spirit which enabled me to serve Him in ways which my natural abilities could never have done. One of the more predominant gifts is the gift of discerning of spirits. Another is the word of wisdom and an understanding of the Scripture which has nothing to do with my intellect. None of the gifts which I have received were for my personal glory - all were to enhance my effectiveness for Him. One thing which God has shown me is that there are many counterfeits among those who boast of having the "gifts". I would encourage you, Esther, to continue as you have been doing in pursuing God with all your heart and asking Him to fill you with His Spirit. I am assured that He will delight in pouring His gifts upon His beloved daughter as He sees fit in His good plans for you. The world of books and teachers can be very confusing with its multitude of opinions but God is a good Father Who will prove to be an apt teacher to all who honestly seek Him.

David

Hi Sis Esther,
You're in the right book to read about gifts of the Spirit. The Bible 😊.
I was reading this morning how Isaiah said God had called him from the womb. (Isaiah 49:1-2) God wires us all a little differently but it is apparent in our DNA what we are like. Trying to figure out what your gifts are or how the Holy Spirit will use you is a little like trying to figure out what a baby will be like when he is just born! Looking back seems to be a better indication of what one is good at.
In my life, the things I am drawn to are often a good indicator of how God will highlight my life in His Spirit.
It is often the worldly or religious thinking that takes us off track. May God give you peace and reveal His ways and paths for you, dear Esther!
Your namesake, Esther, had no idea she would be used to save her people from destruction, but God set it up and Esther's character and natural gifts were all part of the Spirit's moving in her life.
Love in Christ,
Sis L

In The hour of His Power
by Athur Wallis

A sound man long gone with the Lord.

That was before corruption crept into the charismatic renewal movement.

Also
David Pawson
Holy Spirit
and
Word and Spirit

Dear sister,

Some of the best teachings on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit that I have ever listened to are by Derek Prince. There are numerous scripture references that Brother Prince gives in these teachings. He is not teaching man's opinion or some denomination's view on the Holy Spirit, but sound doctrine from the Word of God.

On this three part series, the first teaching deals with receiving the Holy Spirit. If you want to skip to the teaching on the Gifts of the Spirit, advance to about 52 minutes into the teaching, and you will be able to view two other teachings on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THa58YZgbOI

And I realize that the gifts are given for the profit of the church, so realizing or finding out what gift God has given me - will be a blessing to all!

There is, I believe, a major difference between the nine gifts of the Spirit listed in 1 Cor. 12 and what I would call giftings or callings on your life. The nine are supernatural gifts that are given as the Spirit wills. For example, God might want to use me in the gift of miracles at a specific time and for a specific purpose, but that does not mean that I now possess the gift of working of miracles and have the ability to go about working miracles.

As to giftings and callings in the body, I would point to Eph. 4. Paul begins by saying that to everyone is given grace, supernatural empowerment, according to the measure of the gift of Christ (according to the will of God and the specific anointing that He has placed upon our lives through the Holy Spirit.)

Paul then says that there are particular gifts given to the body through men, five of them, that have a specific calling to train and mature the remainder of the body. The members of the body, as it matures, will eventually reach the measure of a full grown spiritual man so that each will be able to supply as he or she is anointed by the Holy Spirit.

So the key, in my opinion and experience, is not found in trying to figure out your gift. The key is in pressing in to God and seeking the have Him grow and mature you in Him. In the carnal world we think this is natural. We grow up not having a clue what we are going to do when we are older. But in the process of maturing, we find ourselves drawn to one career or another occupation and our course is guided naturally. It is similar in the spiritual realm. If you draw near to God and spend time with Him, He will naturally speak to your heart about His will for your life. And, with His will comes His empowerment (the grace that is given to every man as Paul says in Eph. 4).

Hope this helps.

r u baptized in the Holy Ghost? Only those that r baptized in the Holy Ghost can have gifts of the Spirit. Secondly,the gifts of the Spirit only comes or operates as the Spirit wills and not as the individual wills. Trying to operate gifts of the Spirit on one's volition will lead into error.
I will recommend you read the book by Kenneth e.Hagin- Knowledge of the gifts of the Spirit.

The Gifts Of The Spirit by Harold Horton

This is a very straightforward and plain spoken book. It's the only book I've ever read on the "Gifts”. I think it's about 30 years old now and it still holds true. The temptation with this book is to only read what you think your gift is, but I recommend reading the entire book. In doing do so whatever your gift(s) may become very plain to you. For me the book was more like a confirmation but it was fascinating in how all the "Gifts” work because I had seen a majority of them in operation but wasn't quite sure because some look a little similar. So the book helped me to distinguish.

I hope that helps.

I read a number of Kenneth Hagin's books in the past. Though he wrote some goods things, I would stay away from them because of his word of faith theology.

If you want to read a good book on prophesy, I recommend Wayne Grudem's "The gift of prophesy "

RE: "r u baptized in the Holy Ghost? Only those that r baptized in the Holy Ghost can have gifts of the Spirit."

No, that is Pentecostal doctrine, the Christian doctrine is here:

1 Corinthians 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into
one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be
bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

ALL believers are baptized into one Spirit

Ephesians 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

there is Now only 1 Christian baptism, and Paul never asks anyone
to search for a second blessing, even though the AOL website
says to search for that. That's why the call themselves Pentecostals,
and not Christian. It's 'christian Plus something extra'.

Acts is history, epistles are teaching Chrisitan doctrine. But people want
to re-experience act again, special re-run just for them. The catholics also
have this tendency to not accept once and for all historical facts and want
to 'do a historical once for all done deal all over again' in every mass.

Pentecostals do the same in a different way, instead of going with Bible doctrine,
it seems kind of "spiritual" to tap into the history side and declare "let's do this
every day", and of course it should be Pentecost all the time, would'nt that
what we really want?....or is it simply a childish way to misunderstand everything?

Anyway, the gifts are mentioned in 1 Corinthians in detail for someone
interested in the Christian teaching, for Pentecostal teachings you need to
buy books of Pentecostals, as long as you're aware that they teach different
doctrines, such as "second blessing" which is not biblical.

"Pentecostals do the same in a different way, instead of going with Bible doctrine,"

"That's why the call themselves Pentecostals,
and not Christian. It's 'christian Plus something extra'."

Brother,

You are completely off base and not in line with the teachings in scripture concerning the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Pentecostals didn't come up with the doctrine of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus did!

Every Pentecostal that I know refers to themselves as being a Christian. And by Pentecostal, I am not referring to a denomination, I am talking about one that has received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, just as the believers did in the upper room on the day of Pentecost. I am a Christian first, but I am not ashamed to be called a Pentecostal, because I have received the Pentecostal experience of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

These are the words of Jesus:
"And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high." (Luke 24:49).

"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
(Acts 1:8).

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit that the disciples of Jesus received on the day of Pentecost is for believers today. It is true that a person can be saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit through the new birth without experiencing the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

John the Baptist said this about Jesus:
"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." (Matthew 3:11). It is none other than Jesus Christ that is baptizing those in the Holy Spirit that are thirsty, and ask for this free gift, and that receive it by faith.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17). A born again person is in Christ and is a member of the Body of Christ, and has the Spirit of God abiding within him, but this is not the same thing as being baptized in the Holy Spirit. There are many saved people, that have never been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

The Apostle Paul found believers, disciples of Jesus that had not yet been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
(Acts 19:1-6).

There are Cessationists in the Church today that follow the teachings of John MacArthur. They are being robbed out of this wonderful experience of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Since the day of Pentecost millions of believers throughout the world have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, many of them speaking in tongues and exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Pentecostals do the same in a different way, instead of going with Bible doctrine,
it seems kind of "spiritual" to tap into the history side and declare "let's do this
every day", and of course it should be Pentecost all the time, would'nt that
what we really want?....or is it simply a childish way to misunderstand everything?

When I was eight years old I was born again. I remember the strong conviction of the Holy Spirit in my heart, and I remember the wonderful sense of cleanness that washed over me. I knew the exact moment that the transaction took place and my spirit was reborn. I felt totally pure and holy in a moment of time. I remember experiencing an abiding presence of God in my life from that moment on.

When I was 18, I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I remember being filled with such an overflowing presence of God. I tell you, I was lost in Him. I remember the joy and presence of God that filled me and overflowed. I desired so much to worship Him, but my own words were so inadequate. I began to praise Him in another language, one I did not understand. I then began to sing to Him a song I did not know nor understand. A young lady who was also seeking God that night began to sing as well and for a time we sang in perfect unison the same melody and words in another language. After that experience I not only felt the abiding presence of God, but I was indued with the power of God in a way that I had never experienced before.

I tell this testimony for a reason. I was raised in the very roots of 20th century pentecost. I grew up at the feet of the men and women who walked with and ministered with Parham. With all due respect, and I really mean that, I believe you have a very skewed view of pentecost and what pentecostal's believe.

Bro. Mike listed several scriptural references that demonstrate the baptism of the Holy Spirit as separate from and subsequent to conversion. The best way I have to describe this is that when we are born again there is an abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. But, when we receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, we are indued with power by the Holy Spirit. One is the regeneration of our spirit by the Holy Spirit, the other is an indwelling of our entire life and being by the Holy Spirit. One is a baptism of repentance which brings about reconciliation or renewal of right relationship while the other is a baptism in fire (there is one coming after me who will baptize you with the Holy Ghose and fire) that brings about the power of God in and through us. (See Paul's explanation of this in 1 Cor. 2)

At Cain Ridge in the early 1800's, the Methodists experienced this and called this the second blessing. I have read the first hand accounts of people who were there (my copy of the book is well over 150 years old now) and they experienced the same manifestations that you might associate with pentecostals today. The same happened in the early 1900's at Parham's school in Topeka, KS.

I think we run into problems when we don't understand where someone is coming from. A few years back I went to a marriage conference in Arkansas that was hosted by a very strict, holiness baptist man. A couple who went with me asked him if he had ever attended a pentecostal church that we knew well that was located right down the road from his camp. He said yes, and that he loved the people, knew they were godly people, but that the whole speaking in tongues thing made him uncomfortable. You know, I saw a demonstration of the presence of God in this man's life that was amazing. Yet the doctrines that he had been taught kept him from receiving something that I believe God wanted him to have very badly. It did not mean that he was not holy, not righteous, and not anointed of God. He absolutely was, in a great way. It just meant that he was, in my opinion, missing out on an induement of power by the Holy Ghost that could have taken his ability to minister to another level entirely.

I pray in tongues on a daily basis. I find, just a scripture tells me it will, that is is a source of edification to me. I am occasionally used in gifts of the Spirit. I hear God speak to me in my spirit clearly, and on a daily basis. Does not make me super spiritual, and it does not make me feel spiritual. If what I am doing is about making me feel spiritual, then I am way off and out in left field. It simply gives me strength and power that is beyond my own natural ability. It is the induement of His power that He promised before He ascended to the Father.

Thanks bro's Travis and Mike for reminding us what it is all about.

I pray that many brothers and sisters reading will be stirred to seek, ask and knock until they also receive this enduement from on high!

How else will we be the witnesses He has called us to be?

Have you noticed that from the camp of cessationist preachers like John McArthur etc come never a testimony of people set free from demonic possession, healed through laying on of hands or anything else that could not be done without the power of the Holy Spirit.
One wonders what kind of gospel they are really preaching and how powerless the Jesus is whom they declare.
What kind of missionaries do they send out?
How are they convincing people to believe? Merely with words?

These men will have a lot of explaining to do, offering a Jesus Who saves and gives eternal life, but no power for doing the kingdom's work

Blessings,

Thank you Brother Travis for sharing your wonderful testimony, and I can very much relate to what you are saying.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit glorifies the Lord Jesus, makes Him more real to us, and out of our belly flows rivers of living water. It is a fire that cannot be quenched, and I can say that after 44 years of being filled with the Spirit. We cannot limit it though to just a one time experience. We must stay filled. We must stay hungry and thirsty, and come to Jesus every day for that living water.

It is a fire that cannot be quenched, and I can say that after 44 years of being filled with the Spirit. We cannot limit it though to just a one time experience.

AMEN! We are to be continually be in a state of being filled.

Hi Mike,

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
(Acts 19:1-6)."

Just thinking......

(1) Would you say that the tongues and prophesying were the gifts they received when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit or would you say, as some say, that tongues are the evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit?

(2) What exactly is the baptism with the Holy Spirit?

(3) What is the real purpose of the baptism with the Holy Spirit?

As important as your gift(s) may be, I'd begin here before going there;

Speaking to women, Peter says in chapter 3 of his first epistle -

Let their adorning not be outward with ostentatious hairdos and wearing of gold nor in composition of apparel, but let the interior adorning of the heart be without corruption, and of an agreeable spirit and peaceful, which is precious in the sight of God. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who waited upon God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands, as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, of whom ye are made daughters, doing well and not being afraid of any terror.

There's much to consider in just these three verses. If a woman is looking for what God says is precious to Him, she's found it here in plain language.

If you're pursuing what's written above, all those other things will be added to you.

I realize that this is a bit off topic, but without this, all else is like the image given in the Proverbs of the pig with a gold ring in his nose.

First things first. First thing being, to be what God has called you to be as a woman. Study and pray about this, and may His Spirit lead you and guide you into all other truth which you are seeking.

Perhaps I should add as a background that I started to think about this after a conversation with a friend. It was about the church, and... she told that I don't understand married people, because they have many burdens. "You are a free molecule", she said ;d. So I thought, "Ok. When I am so free, and less burdened, could I not somehow be a blessing for my church? Like encouraging them etc."

I agree with bro Travis, there is difference between our calling (for example to be a missionary, preacher, teacher etc), and the gifts of the Spirit. My thoughts were more in direction of how can I serve while I am staying here (in that particular local church).

And yesterday the Lord reminded me: "You want to serve people, but I want that you serve Me." How, I'm not yet quite sure.

Savannah, thank you very much really for that Scripture. I think I have yet a lot to learn... /but/ I love the combination of being in subjection and serving Christ. :)

Edit: ... "but"? That's useless. They both go hand in hand!

To all, to whom I cannot answer - thanks!

Only those that r baptized in the Holy Ghost can have gifts of the Spirit

(1) Would you say that the tongues and prophesying were the gifts they received when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit or would you say, as some say, that tongues are the evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit?

(2) What exactly is the baptism with the Holy Spirit?

(3) What is the real purpose of the baptism with the Holy Spirit?

Dear Jade,

On the Day of Pentecost, the 120 believers in that upper room were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues. Many believers have been baptized in the Holy Spirit but have yet to receive the gift of tongues, yet it is available to all, and one of the main reasons why saints do not receive this wonderful gift is because of poor teaching on the subject. Many believers want God to do it all. They want God to open their mouth and pray through them in tongues. I am not talking about making up strange sounds and calling that praying in tongues, but the Word of God says that they began to speak in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. In other words, the Spirit of God will give you the utterance, but you must open your mouth and speak that which He is giving to you.

Now it is my personal belief that a person can be filled with the Holy Spirit and never speak in tongues, because the main purpose of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is to receive power for ministry. Power to be witnesses unto Jesus.

"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." (Acts 1:8).

The Church needs the power of the Holy Spirit to fulfill the Great Commission: "Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28:16-20).

God has given ministry gifts to the Church. These ministry gifts are the Fivefold Ministry. They are men that walk in the office of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Prophet, and Teacher as stated in Ephesians 4: 11-13).

God has given given one or more gifts of the Spirit to every believer for the edification or building up of the Body of Christ.

Chapters 12, 13, and 14 of 1st Corinthians tells us what the gifts are, how the gifts are to ministered (in love), and the purpose of the gifts.

And to answer the other question: Yes, I have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I think that brother Travis and Mike explained it well.

I cannot remember my parents ever telling me, "We are Pentecostals." I did not even really know the difference between Baptist and Pentecostal until 2015 perhaps. I guess that if you've asked me, I really could not tell you much. And yes, there are out there people who have "strange fire", but that does not mean that God does not therefore baptize his children anymore with fire!

I like the example of bro Travis, with the Baptist. I do not reject people on the ground of being "Baptist". The question is - are we following the same Sheperd? Does Christ, does the Spirit of God dwell in you?

May I share another testimony: My father was born and was raised up Muslim (very believing Muslim). And around the age of 17, God met him and he was converted. He told me that there was one occasion, on which he met a man, who was not speaking his language (perhaps from another tribe). But my father started to talk to him, sharing the gospel with him, while talking in another language. And the man understood him! My father has never after that spoken that language. God just used him at that time.

I just can say, Glory be to God!

You guys are talking about Mcarthur and ceasonists never understood
the basic problem. What happened the first time when the Holy Spirit
came has nothing to do with us looking for an extra babtism.
ALL are already babtised in the Holy Spirit, wheter they realize it or not,
there is no believer without, all can have gifts as decribed
now already, without anything extra required.

Some people realize that at conversion, others 10 years later, that
is a completely different issue. Unfortunately some people that
had strong experiences like the latter started their own denomination
to teach an additional babtism, and millions followed.

One of the books that helped me to understand where the basic
misunderstanding lies is this one:

Holiness: The False And The True

By Harry A. Ironside

"How necessary it is then to search the Scriptures, and to obey them
unquestioningly, in order that we may be sanctified by the truth! Yet
what indifference is often found among professors of a "second
blessing" as to this very thing! What ignorance of the Scriptures, and
what fancied superiority to them, is frequently manifested!””and that
coupled with a profession of holiness in the flesh!"

https://img.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic_pdf.php?topic_id=49760&forum=36

great book about personal holiness/second blessing experiences
and related doctrinal study

Sooner or later everyone should try to understand the Bible without
relying on domination colored explainer books. People are pre-tribbers
because they only read books by pre-tribbers. The same with charismatics
and pentecostals. Read some books by reformed writers, if you can
stand the heat at least they understand the bible on that point the way
it should be understood.

Interesting also the German "evangelische Kirche" on that. They rejected
Pentecostalism for about 60-65 years in the 1900's as "not of God".
In the 60's or 70's they caved into public demand. I read an interesting
book about the beginnings of the movment where they actually did the
right thing an asked many of the "tongues-spirits" who they are and
where they come from. I never seen anyone in the english speaking
world do that, that was a revealing and a bit shocking read.

Personally I'm not a ceasonist by any means, I've seen many complete
wonders only God can do (out of human reach) - but none happened
in a charismatic/pentecostal environment. Their signs and wonders
are of a different quality, almost like a bad imitation.

Hi Mike,

I will start a new thread to discuss the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

Here you go again Blaine, misrepresenting believers.

I am in no way a Calvinist, or of the reformed theology. Nor am I a cessasionist. I believe in the continuance of the gifts to the church today.

However what you say about our reformed brethren, being devoid of the Holy Spirit and under law is just slanderous.
Would you call Tim Conway, Paul Washer, John Piper and those like them devoid of the Holy Spirit??

You are eaten up with angst against John MacArthur and this is causing you to swing to a worst extreme than him in your effort to demonize him and anyone who remotely has association with reformed theology.

A few others devoid of the Holy Spirit in the gargle according to Blaine -

Arthur W. Pink: 1886-1952 (Bible teacher and theologian)
Augustus Toplady: 1740-1778 (author of "Rock Of Ages” and other hymns)
Benjamin Keach: 1640-1704 (primary author of the 1689 Baptist Confession)
B.H. Carroll: 1843-1914 (founder South Western Theological Seminary)
Charles Spurgeon: 1834-1892 (famous Baptist preacher)
Francis Schaeffer: 1912-1984 (author of "How Shall We Then Live” video series)
George Mueller: 1805-1898 (Christian evangelist and orphanage director)
George Whitefield:1714-1770 (evangelist & preacher)
J.C. Ryle: 1816-1900 (writer, pastor, evangelical preacher)
J.P. Boyce: 1827-1888 ( founder Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)
John Bunyan: 1628-1688 (author of Pilgrim’s Progress)
John Calvin: 1509-1564 (preacher & Bible scholar)
John L. Dagg: 1794-1884 (Baptist theologian)
John Foxe: 1516-1587 (author of Foxe’s Book Of Martyrs)
John Gill: 1697-1771 (renowned theologian and Bible commentator)
John Knox: 1513-1572 (founder of Presbyterianism)
John Newton: 1725-1807 (wrote the hymn "Amazing Grace”)
John Owen: 1616-1683 (theologian and author)
Jonathan Edwards: 1703-1758 (evangelist, preacher, author)
Martyn Lloyd-Jones: 1834-1892 (pastor and theologian)
Martin Luther: 1483-1546 (Protestant Reformer)
Matthew Henry: 1662-1712 (famous Bible commentator)
Roger Williams: 1603-1683 (founded the first Baptist church in America)
William Carey: 1761-1834 (missionary)
William Wilberforce: 1759-1833 (slavery abolitionist)

And the list goes on...

"A few others devoid of the Holy Spirit in the gargle according to Blaine - "

Give me fellowship with any of these over the likes of Copeland, Engle, Hinn, Arnott, and all those crazy self professed 'Holy Ghost led' men!

Now it would be good to discuss sensibly the role and gifts of the Holy Spirit in the church today...maybe on the other thread that was started.

I think this is a bit unfair, since Blaine does not know these men and neither do you.

We can only judge those that speak and act today as representatives of Christ's church.

Perhaps it is born from a reaction against the excesses of men such as those whom Dave mentions, but men such as McArthur do deny a whole lot of verses concerned with the Holy Spirit...

These men can teach the bible and bring reasonable arguments for certain doctrines etc, however there will always be a dimension of anointing missing, I believe.

Blessings,

quote: "I think this is a bit unfair, since Blaine does not know these men and neither do you."

William, It's not unfair at all. We have the testimony of most of these men what God did in and through them.

What is a more than 'a bit unfair' is Blaine labeling all these and others as devoid of the Spirit!

As I said, he seems so taken over by rage against MacArthur that he has lost all sense of reality.

Brothers and Sisters,

This discussion started out on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Let's not turn it into an argument of who has the Holy Spirit and who doesn't.

I believe that we can all agree on the fact that without the Holy Spirit we could not be saved, and when we receive Christ, the Holy Spirit comes into us, regenerating us, and we become a new creation in Christ.

The question is this. Do we receive all there is at salvation or is there a deeper experience that God has for us?

Jesus didn't save us only for the purpose that when we die we would be with Him in glory.

Neither can those that received the Holy Spirit when they were saved, or those that have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit can say that they have arrived yet at God's ultimate goal for their lives.

We are all on a path of spiritual growth in which we are being conformed into the image and likeness of Jesus Christ. The day that we say that we have arrived is the day that our spiritual growth will cease.

We must come humbly before God every day and tell Him that we need His grace for this day. We must stay pliable in his hands, and acknowledge that we don't know everything. We might have a lot of doctrine in our heads, but be very short and lacking on experience with God.

The Christian life is a progression. We are growing in the knowledge of Jesus Christ, and we need the fullness of the Holy Spirit to get to the place where the Lord is wanting to take us. We won't get there by reading a book or following some teachers 5 point plan to successful Christian living.

God reveals Himself to those that are hungry and thirsty for more of Him.

We are all brothers and sisters because of our faith in Jesus Christ, and we are all in need of the teaching of the Holy Spirit, as well as needing each other. We are the Body of Christ, and Jesus Christ is the Head. We are in Him, and He lives in us.

Mike, Thanks for your post, you are correct.

Sadly there are those who will want to persist down this path of 'simply their thoughts'!

This discussion started out on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Let's not turn it into an argument of who has the Holy Spirit and who doesn't.

Yes! Please, if anybody has anything to say about it to the glory of God on that topic, you're welcome. I think that the desire of every true believer is just to do God's will. And knowing His perfect will - is our aim.

To all my brethren and sisteren, beloved in Christ:

In this very important subject of the gifts of the Spirit we need to ask ourselves some hard questions and answer them honestly, because it concerns our very own lives, testimony and usefulness in the kingdom of God.

Brother Blaine has received a lot of flack in this thread for some of his comments. I know he doesn’t need me to defend him because by his comments he stands or falls, he’s that kind of guy. 
I appreciate what he is proposing and encouraging us to do, which is to become childlike in our faith and ask the Father for the fullness of what He has for us in the Spirit and receive it by faith and walk in it.

Please read these questions carefully, prayerfully, before responding and measure your life and your church or denomination against them:

1.\tDo any of you or have you cast out demons or had demons cast out of you?
2.\tIf you had a family member struggling with addiction, or hearing voices, would you pray for them in Jesus Name or have the confidence to take them to your church leadership, knowing they would have the ability to set this person free, in Jesus Name?
3.\tDo any among you prophesy in the fellowship of believers (in an impromptu, inspired kind of way)?
4.\tDo you lay hands on the sick and see them recover?
5.\tDo some, at least, speak with tongues?
6.\tDo you speak to one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs? (not in a scripted, on the projector, kind of way)
7.\tDo you proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection, in a bold, powerful, convincing manner, which pierces the hearts of those who hear and leads to repentance and faith?
8.\tDo you "sense” the presence and power of the Holy Spirit in your pastor’s preaching and teaching and receive more than just an intelligent, reasonable message but are built up in the inner man when listening to him?

Most churches will claim the gospel and that they preach it in its fullness. Are the abovementioned signs that follow their preaching?
If not,Are they not, then, denying the fullness of the power of the gospel, which includes the fact that the man, Jesus Christ, has been declared Lord over all and in His Name mighty deeds of deliverance can and should be wrought?

Selah

I have not followed up on this thread lately but when it was first posted, I wanted to give my testimony. Here is mine.

I came from a Hindu background. Hence deep inside me, even after being born again (repentance and believe), I still did not have the boldness to stand for Christ. I told about my conversion to my parents and siblings only on the day of my baptism. I was still not bold enough to tell my friends and colleagues of my faith. I was even ashamed to tell my friends that I go to Church.

Though I made spiritual progress after I accepted Christ, I still felt that I had no power over sin. Romans 6:14 was not true in my life. I could never say no to Sin. I was easily sold to sin. I could clearly feel the law of sin and death controlling my life. I was not free from the law of sin and death.

So the 2 things that kept me bound as said above are,
1. lack of boldness to represent Christ.
2. lack of power over sin

Now around 2 years after I was born again. I one day hit the rock bottom of my Christian life. I came to a point when I could no longer continue my defeated life. I accepted that I was a failure. The Calvinistic teachings (which I never believed) were lingering on my ears, that I was not at all chosen by God to be saved, hence I am continuously defeated. I decided to give up Christianity that night, it happened in May 2011. I was unmarried and was 27 years old. I felt that I could never be saved from this defeated life.

Something inside me said that before you give up on Christ, just read the Bible 1 last time. I made an honest prayer 'Jesus, I know the life you offer is great, but I have fallen short of it, I do not think you intended me to live this life, just tell me plainly that you have NOT CALLED ME, I will give up'. I then opened the Bible, strongly expecting a word of rebuke asking me to give up.

But my Bible turned to John 14. I started reading from verse 1. The verse that really touched me was - "In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you." I did not feel like I was reading, but for the first time felt like someone spoke these verses to me. Jesus spoke to me that he would have told me if there was no place for me in his kingdom. This was the exact answer to the question I asked him. God still speaks!

I fell on my knees and wept bitterly for dishonoring such a loving God. At the same time a joy filled me because God has finally met me! I am sure Jesus was present in the room. I could feel his presence. I believe I was baptized in the Holy Spirit on that night. It happened at a point when I did not expect. When I was least qualified by the virtue of my works. But it came at a point when I gave up my self effort. That is the only thing God expects from us. To come to a point of hitting rock bottom where the only direction to look is above!

From that time, my life changed. I had the power to be a bold witness for Christ (Acts 1:8). I had power over sin (Romans 6:14). Both these were evident in my life not just to myself but also to the people around me. My Church saw a new person in me.

I started getting revelation from the Bible, everytime I read it. Previously when I read, I used to get bright ideas due to my intelligence, but now I got revelation. Revelation is something that our bright intelligence cannot comprehend. It is something beyond human intellectual limits. I slowly started sharing them in the Church. My elders started to note them. Soon I got opportunities to speak in churches. Now I know it is called the Gift to Prophesy. I still use the gift in my Church here where I lead the meetings.

I got tongues when I asked a brother to lay his hands on me after few years.

Now I believe the true mark of being filled with the spirit are, boldness to stand for Christ and power over sin. Gifts are not the mark. Jesus told us that you will know the tree by its fruits not by gifts.

Any takers on the questions,brethren? 🙂

William,

If we could all say yes to your questions, then I would say that we could say that we are living the normal Christian life.

Doesn't scripture say that believers should be doing all these things?
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (Mark 6:17,18).

The believers that I have fellowship with could say yes to all of these questions.

Does that mean that we have seen 100% results in praying for the sick or casting out demons?

We have seen God do amazing things in obedience to His Word, but we have witnessed failure also, but we don't blame God for any failure on our part. We simply ask the Lord to show us why.

The failure is never with the Lord. It could be a lack of understanding of the Lord's will in certain situations. It also could be that we acted in presumption and not the leading of the Spirit. We could be out of the Lord's timing.
It also could be a lack of faith on our part or the person that we are praying for. There are many other reasons why people do not receive healing and deliverance, but we do know that Jesus Christ came to destroy the works of the devil. We have been given power and authority to cast out demons, and as believers when we lay hands on the sick we expect for them to be healed.

The gifts of the Spirit are still in operation in the Church today, but you are not going to find them in churches that do not teach them or practice them. The same can be true about healing and the casting out of demons. It is not going to happen in churches where it is not taught and believed.

There are many Christians that are not walking in these giftings that love the Lord and are manifesting the fruit of the Spirit, and Charismatics need to repent for many times seeking the gifts more than the giver, and putting the gifts of the Spirit ahead of the fruit. The fullness of the Spirit includes both the gifts and the fruit of the Spirit.

by StirItUp|
Please read these questions carefully, prayerfully, before responding and measure your life and your church or denomination against them:

2.\tIf you had a family member struggling with addiction, or hearing voices, would you pray for them in Jesus Name or have the confidence to take them to your church leadership, knowing they would have the ability to set this person free, in Jesus Name?

The Lord has provided me with the opportunity to pray for those myself and also, back in December I found a local church that if push came to shove, I do believe they have faith and more importantly, the courage to try.

3.\tDo any among you prophesy in the fellowship of believers (in an impromptu, inspired kind of way)?
I have before.

4.\tDo you lay hands on the sick and see them recover?

Yes!!!

5.\tDo some, at least, speak with tongues?

Yes!!! Everyday, I live alone so I don't have to hide it! So I go through the house talking to the Lord and will also speak in tongues. I find just as my body needs air to breath, so my spirit longs converse with Him.

6.\tDo you speak to one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs? (not in a scripted, on the projector, kind of way)

I grew up in a church that every time we met, the Holy Spirit fell and we would begin to sing in the Spirit, in tongues, in praise, in worship and it all blended together, that was truly a unique experience I've not found in any other church, not even the one I love going to now.

7.\tDo you proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection, in a bold, powerful, convincing manner, which pierces the hearts of those who hear and leads to repentance and faith?

I do proclaim the good news through the jail ministry the Lord gave me but more importantly, I hope and pray "my life" proclaims the good news of Jesus Christ daily through the fruit of the Spirit - to me, this is more important than the words we speak.

8.\tDo you "sense” the presence and power of the Holy Spirit in your pastor’s preaching and teaching and receive more than just an intelligent, reasonable message but are built up in the inner man when listening to him?

I've gone about 10 years without going to church and the Lord finally led me to a small church that this is true! Praise His Holy Name!

The Lord has provided the gifts of the Spirit for the taking, He said "come boldly to the Throne of Grace...", so go boldly and take what is rightfully yours!!

God bless us all,
Lisa

Praise God sister Lysa,

You're enthusiastic responses made me smile!

May we all hunger and thirst and desire the best gifts, while we pursue love and holiness.

Blessings,

This is for those interested - not to start an argument!

I found this book on pdf and I'm reading it. If you are interested then please read it too and it's a free download from the author's website.

The Walk of the Spirit, The Walk of Power - The Vital Role Of Praying in Tongues
by Dave Roberson

http://www.daveroberson.org/Media/7/WOSWOP%20Portrait.pdf

StirItUp, I don't ignore your questions but I'll need more time to answer them.

For now, I want just to say this about healing:

I know God heals, and have been a witness to that in my closer friend circles and I've heard testimonies in my local church.

And yes, sometimes doctors are involved. And that's ok. I personally do not believe that we should frantically go around and lay hands on all people. Jesus never did that, neither the disciples. See, in Bethesda he healed just one man (though I am sure that there were many others, if that one man could not get healed for 38 years!).

Yet there were occasions, when many people got healed: "And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him. So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed" (Acts 28:8,9)

In Corinthians 12:9, it says: "To another [is given] faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;" Not all people have the gift of healing. Does that mean that you cannot pray for healing? No. See king Hezekiah.

I believe we have to do what is up to us (as humans) and also pray for the particular situation. And as an example I take the good samaritan - who took care of the wounds and brought the poor man to a place where he could be further helped (nowadays hospital).

So, if there is an emergency - would I pray? Perhaps in my heart. But my duty (and that of all doctors) is to do my best to save the life of that person.

Edit: And if a person does not get healed, or if a friend dies young, does that mean that God has failed? Never! Sometimes it's because of unbelief, sometimes not... And I don't have always an answer to the "Why?" - Nevertheless, God is true!

Will certainly check it out, thanks Lysa

Sister Esther,

No problem. The questions are for reflection and self examination more than for answers publicly, but your answers and responses are appreciated.

Of course, in all these works of the kingdom we are subject to the Holy Spirit's leading.

When it comes to the sick there are a few things to consider from the bible.
If they are believers, we can follow the James pattern; calling for the elders of the church to anoint them with oil, lay hands on them and pray for them in Jesus Name.
We as believers can all lay hands on the sick with faith in Jesus Name and trust the Holy Spirit to do the work.
We can also desire and ask for the best gift from the Holy Spirit for each situation, whether it be faith, healings or miracles, and then pray believing we have received what we have asked, giving glory to God in all things.

Blessings,

Hey brothers and sisters,

I found this text sermon on SermonIndex which makes some good points. I have edited a portion out where the speaker refers to men but you can search for this if you want to read the whole thing. The main points are valid, I think and also emphasizes the importance of the gift of tongues.

Text Sermons : ~Other Speakers A-F : John Boruff : Introduction to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit (Outline)\t

The following is my own outline of chapter 6 from Dennis and Rita Bennett’s The Holy Spirit and You (1971). This book is probably the most authoritative work on spiritual gifts to come out since that year; it was written mostly by Dennis Bennett, the main leader and fire starter of the Charismatic Renewal in the 60s and 70s. Most of these outlines come directly out of the chapter, but I have my own personal elaborations thrown in there, such as notes on how it might relate to certain aspects of Catholic mystical theology, or when I put something in brackets, or if I string all the Biblical references in logical sequence””however, most of the Biblical references are coming out of the chapter as well.

Spiritual Gifts Are Occasional Experiences Given from the Holy Spirit. After you become baptized in the Holy Spirit, you will become more aware of spiritual gifts operating in your life (1 Cor. 12:8-10). At this point, you realize that they are given to you occasionally from the Holy Spirit””but that they do not permanently function in you. (Spiritual gifts are not "psychic powers” of your own mind):”“you understand that they are gifts, little "presents” from the Holy Spirit, and experienced only occasionally (p. 78).
Nobody Has a Permanent Spiritual Gift. No one Christian has one permanent gift (such as prophecy, healing, etc):”“that idea leads to spiritual pride.
Any Christian Can Experience Spiritual Gifts for and in the Context of a Church Community. Charismatic gifts are not supposed to be experienced in isolation, but rather in connection with a church community (1 Cor. 12:8)””as the Spirit sovereignly wills to dispense them (1 Cor. 12:11), to any Christian.
Serious Heresies Are Not to Be Tolerated for Those Operating in Spiritual Gifts. [The Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion should guide our exercise of spiritual gifts:--I include this here, because Bennett was an Anglican priest, and in his view of spiritual discernment, we should not "condone what others are doing when they are openly proclaiming false doctrine (Eph. 5:11)” (p. 79); this statement should be understood as a "false prophets” test for testing apparently gifted people in a church setting, who may be also preaching false cultic New Age doctrines, as he warns against in chapter 4, doctrines such as universalism, positive confession ("sickness is a lie”; "sickness is not real”””basically a Christian Science or "mind-over-matter” concept), reincarnation (Heb. 9:27), karma, religious pluralism (all religions are one), Hinduism, Buddhism, pantheism (the world is god), stoicism (loss of human personality in the name of "self-denial”), psychic ideas like telepathy or ESP, horoscopes, drug use, hypnotism, transcendental meditation, yoga, occultism (witchcraft, magic), spiritism (communicating with "ghosts”), mediumship (fortune telling), parapsychology, etc.]
Certain Spiritual Gifts, Over Time, Can Be Expressed More Frequently and Effectively Than Other Gifts, Depending On How Much Attention Is Given to Them for Their Cultivation. All nine gifts can operate through a Christian, but "as Christians mature, certain gifts may be expressed more frequently and effectively through them” (p. 80).
It is An Anti-Charismatic "Cop Out,” to Exalt the Moral Fruit of the Spirit to Such an Extent, That They Are Interpreted Theologically to Extinguish any Need for Spiritual Gifts. There is no good reason to pit the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) against the spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10):”“"Jesus didn’t only say to the sick who came to Him: ‘I love you,’ but He said, ‘Be healed!’” (p. 80).
The More You Pray in Tongues:”“The More Visions, Dreams, Words from God, and Healings You Will Experience! 7 gifts of the Spirit were experienced by godly men and women before Pentecost (Acts 2):”“these gifts were:
1. The Word of Wisdom.
2. The Word of Knowledge.
3. The Gift of Faith.
4. The Gifts of Healings.
5. The Working of Miracles.
6. The Gift of Prophecy.
7. The Discerning of Spirits.
Once a Christian is baptized in the Holy Spirit and subsequently speaks in tongues, then he can experience two other gifts:
8. The Gift of Tongues.
9. The Interpretation of Tongues.
The more often a Christian "prays in the Spirit” (prays in tongues) (1 Cor. 14:4, 14; Jude 20), and is filled with the Holy Spirit””the more frequently all nine of the spiritual gifts will be experienced! (p. 81) That is, the more you pray in tongues, and are filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18)””then the more you will hear God’s voice, have dreams from God, see visions, and receive "Yes” answers to prayer for healing!
Ezekiel's Chariot VisionThe More You Practice Listening Prayer:”“The More Visions, Dreams, Words from God, and Healings You Will Experience! "Those who are willing to be used in the gifts of the Holy Spirit must learn to listen to God” (p. 82)
Only Holy Prophets Are Worth Imitating. Holy, godly prophets are the only kind of Charismatics to imitate: "Don’t follow a person just because he has a ‘gift ministry.’ Instead look for the fruit in his life, for honesty and purity brought about by the Spirit of Truth””the Holy Spirit””and a hunger for and appreciation of God’s Word” (p. 82).
Eagerly Desire Spiritual Gifts, But Express Them in a Decently and Orderly Way, in the Church (1 Corinthians 14). Spiritual gifts "are not merely to be tolerated, but are greatly to be desired” (p. 82):”“"eagerly desire spiritual gifts” (1 Corinthians 14:1); however, "we should be forewarned against two mistakes frequently made in the past: misuse of the gifts by a lack of Scriptural order [1 Corinthians 14], and rejecting or quenching the gifts of the Spirit [1 Thessalonians 5:19]. The second mistake is often a reaction against the first one” (p. 83).
You Can Experience Any Spiritual Gift You Have Faith For! "In Christ you have been given all good things freely (Rom. 8:32); however, the promises of God must be appropriated by faith. The gifts will be manifested according to your faith: ‘According to your faith be it unto you’ (Matt. 9:29; Rom. 12:6). Let us manifest His gifts in faith, love, and obedience, that God’s people may be strengthened and prepared for their difficult but glorious tasks ahead” (p. 83).

Here's another sermon on the question of tongues by Ray Stedman..

http://www.raystedman.org/thematic-studies/questions-and-answers/the-true-gift-of-tongues

by AbideinHim
The question is this. Do we receive all there is at salvation or is there a deeper experience that God has for us?

And since He is a God that provides more than enough, in good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, He also includes with our salvation - the nine gifts of the Spirit (edit: and the fruit of the Spirit)!

I cannot accept it's a 2nd experience, Paul never describes it that way in Corinthians and this is where I believe the Pentecostals have erred. The err was in separating and calling it a 2nd blessing or deeper experience. Could we call it ***a continuation*** of our salvation experience? [I don't know if that works either because continuation implies that some doesn't want to continue on; therefore separating us again. So never mind, let's not call it that!]

I don't know what the answer is that all denominations of Christians can finally feel as one because we are of One Spirit, let's say it's part of our salvation with Christ and it's still available today! Why can't we all just support each other in the path we decide to take?

God bless us all,
Lisa

Some good points raised by him but some scriptures he quotes defeats his own argument
"Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified. (1 Corinthians 14:5 RSV)"

Why would Paul want them all to speak with tongues?

Paul says he prays with the spirit ( tongues) and with the understanding.
Why would he differentiate if they were not both valid?

William: That article that you posted was very good. I think it very concisely states some important truths that we need to understand about the gifts of the Spirit. Thank you for posting.

William wrote: "Why would Paul want them all to speak with tongues?"

Actually Paul did NOT say I 'WANT' you all to speak in tongues, but the correct translation is "I WISH you all spoke in tongues"...and he does not even mean in the church.
I may say I WISH you could all teach, that does not mean they all WILL or that it is God's will that they do.

He clearly says that there should be no tongue talking in the church unless it can be interpreted. And in another place he says "not all speak in tongues" in the same way not ALL have all the gifts. But why is it tongues is the one gift that has become emphasised above all others and everyone is told they 'need' to speak in tongues as evidence they have the Spirit.

All this is biblically wrong. Reading through 1 Cor 12-14 it is clear what Paul is teaching about tongues. He is not encouraging more, but correcting the abuse of too much! Pentecostal and Charismatics do the exact opposite and encourage more, showing they are just like the church at Corinth, carnal and immature.

If one has been so ingrained with this type of teaching over many years, plus been an active teacher of it, I understand it is very difficult to see the truth from the 'traditions'.

I would thoroughly recommend folk to read through Ray Stedman's teaching on the tongues. I'm not upholding him as 100% infallible on the subject, but he is 100% bible based in his explanations and had no obvious agenda to take sides.

Heydave wrote:
Actually Paul did NOT say I 'WANT' you all to speak in tongues, but the correct translation is "I WISH you all spoke in tongues"...

At biblehub.com, the versions bounce from "I would..." to "I wish..." to "I desire..."

Weymouth even says, "I should be right glad were you all to speak in 'tongues" !!

No one faults you for choosing the "I wish" version but please don't fault those who do speak in tongues for choosing the "I desire" or even the "I would" version.

God bless,
Lisa

Lisa, Aren't you splitting hairs?
"I would..." to "I wish..." to "I desire... all mean the same thing, they don't mean I WANT, as in you all should be!

Hi brother Dave,

Clearly we are all arguing from different sides of the issue and we could probably all find authors either agreeing or disagreeing about this, probably depending on their own experiences and doctrinal background. Can we all please honestly look at the evidence of NT scripture and base our posts on that?

Quote Dave: "Reading through 1 Cor 12-14 it is clear what Paul is teaching about tongues. He is not encouraging more, but correcting the abuse of too much! Pentecostal and Charismatics do the exact opposite and encourage more, showing they are just like the church at Corinth, carnal and immature."

Even Ray Stedman begins his article with "Forbid not speaking in tongues"
There is a godly balance and order to this. I am against disorder and chaos as much as the next person but as you were saying above, Paul was correcting abuses, not forbidding or attempting to quench the gifts of the Spirit.

The reason there is a reaction to all these posts is because those who do speak with tongues are compelled to defend what they see as legitimate in terms of scripture and experience.

Blessings,

[quoby Heydave
Lisa, Aren't you splitting hairs?
"I would..." to "I wish..." to "I desire... all mean the same thing, they don't mean I WANT, as in you all should be!
Brother,

Definitely not, all I did was provide proof what the translations are saying!

But since you brought that up, I did look up the Tree of Life version and the it is "a new Bible translation, produced by Messianic Jewish and Christian scholars, which highlights the rich Hebrew roots of the Christian faith." Here is their version of that verse:

5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues,

God bless,
Lisa

William: If my children were running through the house, I would correct that as the improper time to run. I would, however, acknowledge that running is a totally proper and healthy thing for my children to do. So I might say, "I would that you all run, but in the house I would rather you take five steps walking properly than to take 1000 steps running improperly."

This, to me, is Paul's admonition. In fact, Paul says, "I thank God that I pray in tongues more than you all." Praying in tongues is a powerful thing. When we do this we edify ourselves. When we do this, we speak mysteries in the Spirit. When we do not know what or how to pray, tongues is a way to bypass our carnal mind and allow the Holy Spirit to help us to pray correctly. There is great power in praying in tongues.

Yet in the congregation, we would only cause confusion if we all came in and spoke and prayed in tongues without some sense of order. So in the assembly we edify the body through prophecy or through its equivalent which is a message in tongues with accompanying interpretation so the unlearned can understand.

If you look at the end of the chapter, I think you can see that the problem was not too many tongues (Paul's letter does not say this at all and we must infer it at best.) Instead the problem was that things were not being done properly and in order. It was not a condemnation for some gross spiritual error. It was correction of procedure. "Look guys, you are zealous and that is good, but let me show you how you ought to do this in proper order so that it is good for the edification of the whole body and not just good for the edification of the person speaking in tongues."

Travis,

The running in the house analogy is a good one and explains the point I was trying to make much better than my attempt!

Can I ask you to consider looking again at the following statement from you and the scripture that I think is used to back it up.
Quote "When we do this (speak in tongues) we edify ourselves".

The scripture says this "But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men".
"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church." (1 Corinthians 14:3-4).

In the context of the whole discourse on the tongues, it would seem reasonable to understand that Paul saying tongues builds himself up (selfish), while prophecy builds up the church. It is a rebuke. Paul is not teaching the benefit of tongues here.

Also I would suggest that the issue at Corinth that Paul was addressing was not just a matter of order like the other gifts, he actually says "\tBut if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God." So he forbids tongues in the church in that circumstance.
The question is how do we know if there is an interpreter? I know the standard answer, but people just assume that it will be interpreted and then eventually someone will come up with what they think God is saying, but no one can really prove that is true or not.

Travis, I agree 100 percent.

Great example with the kids :)

Blessings,

Bro Dave,

The main purpose of this part of Paul's letter from chapter 11 to 14 is regarding behavior in the congregation of believers, which includes loving one another, exercising spiritual gifts and self control and order.

He does not emphasize the benefits of praying in tongues but this is surely inferred?
In saying "let him speak to Himself and to God he is saying pray (quietly) to yourself and God and receive the benefit of that but before you speak publicly, ensure that someone with the gift of interpretation is present.

Of course, as with anything, this comes with practice, and over time, especially in a smaller group of believers it would be known if such individuals were present or not.

In any case, if a person brings forth an utterance in tongues, they can trust the Holy Spirit to provide the interpretation or someone else present can pray for it.

Quote: " no one can really prove that is true or not."

I'm sorry, brother, but this is underestimating the working and leading of the Holy Spirit in our midst and the judgement of mature believers in the meeting. These things are spiritually discerned by those practiced in spiritual matters and if any teaching or correction is required, these can bring same.

Blessings,

Regarding edifying ourselves in the Lord the verse from Jude comes to mind.

"But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 20-21 (NKJV)

Could it be that Paul in 1 Corinthians when speaking of edifying ourselves means not our carnal selves but building up the inner man that is a new creation in Christ?

Edited for clarity.

Absolutely Followthelamb,

No way is he referring to carnal man anywhere in these chapters.

How can you build up others if you yourself are not built up? :)

Dave: I don't think praying in tongues in order to build yourself up is in any way selfish any more than praying in your own tongue, "Lord, I am a bit down right now and I need encouragement from Your Holy Spirit." is selfish. Both accomplish one and the same purpose.

Here is another reference from Jude: 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

I don't believe Paul was issuing a correction here, but rather a contrast. If you do this, you get this result, but if you do that, you get that result.

I would also say this. Some go so far as to say that any time you hear a man pray in tongues in a service that man is out of order. I would disagree with that as well. In our own house, among our own people, we will often pray together. At times we find many in the congregation praying aloud in tongues, but it is not out of order. The reason is that we are not in the presence of the unlearned or the unsaved. We are among only ourselves and we all understand that none of us are giving a message in tongues that needs interpretation. We are all individually praying to God alone, and as such we do not need to worry about interpretation.

However, we do not do that in a meeting where there are the unsaved or unlearned. For example, we do not do that during an outreach service in the community when other people are present. Again, the point, to me, is proper order that flows out of a heart of love (charity as in the previous chapter of 1 Cor.) for others.

If a man stands to give a message in tongues there is a possibility that he is in the flesh and misses it. How do we deal with this situation? I will give an example.

A man came, on occasion, into our fellowship for a men's meeting. He was pretty opportunistic and I believe craved attention. He stood in a meeting and gave a message in tongues, as well as an interpretation. Those of us who were mature judged this to be out of order and of the flesh. It was obvious to most everyone that this was the case. We pulled him aside and asked him not do that in our fellowship anymore. He got very upset and left and has not come back.

Perhaps an overly eager and immature believer were to deliver what they believed to be a message in tongues out of a pure heart, but missed it and was in the flesh. We would not worry about it. We would love on that brother, teach him, help him to grow, and be patient with his honest attempts to follow God, just as God would do with us.

I believe that is the Biblical way to handle such situations.

I remember being 18 years old, newly baptized in the Holy Spirit, and in a meeting. The speaker gave a message in tongues during his sermon. He stopped and we all waited for the interpretation. I felt a strong urge to speak, but did not have in my own mind words to say. I felt very uncomfortable because I was wrestling with what to do. I realized later that I was to give the interpretation but youth and immaturity caused me to question and I did not step out in faith believing god to give me the words.

After a few moments the feeling left and across the room an older and more mature man gave the interpretation. I know the Holy Sprit wanted to use me, I failed, and so He chose another man. I was disappointed in myself, but God encouraged me and I determined to try to be more bold and obedient next time. God is so good.

Thank you for your patience with me on this topic :) I know that I am pushing on this, but I do know the position and arguments well and I have been involved with the Charismatic movement for many many years and my foundations from first getting saved was in an active (small) Charismatic fellowship that practiced all the gifts in the way you are all describing.
As I have stated before I do believe all the gifts are still for the church today, but I do believe there is much that is practiced, taught and accepted that is faulty and un-biblical.

To assume that the Jude 19 reference to praying in the Holy Spirit means praying in tongues is a case of pre-conditioned thinking. Only if you equate being 'in the Spirit' with the gift of tongues would you make this connection. Surely all praying should be in the Holy Spirit?? And those who do not have the gift of tongues (as Paul acknowledges there are) can pray 'in the Spirit' or are they second class Christians?! (BTW I could pray in tongues, so this is not a personal reaction).

Another question. Paul says that tongues is a sign for unbelievers...
"Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe." 1 Cor 14:22

So why are we insisted that tongues should be necessary in the church when we know everyone is a believer and also to get a 'prophecy' via an interpretation? Makes no sense and Paul seems to say this when he encourages Prophecy in words that are understood for believers.

Now I know that the following on verses, 1 Cor 14:23-24 some think contradicts, but I don't think does....

"Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"

"But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all."

I understand this as saying, if everyone is just jabbering on in unknown tongues and an unbeliever comes in, he will think you all mad if he the language is unknown to him, However if he hears a prophecy in the 'home' language, there is a good chance he will come under the conviction of the truth being declared. However tongues is for unbelievers when the language spoken is the language of the unbeliever, as in Acts 2.

So why do we insist on speaking in tongues in a church meeting when the point that Paul makes is that it is for unbeliever as in the first instance in Acts 2 and why do we separate the Acts 2 experience from how we interpret the Corinthian passages.

I think these are valid questions and it is too easy to fall back into the standard answers that circulate round and round the Charismatic and Pentecostal system, so no one inside that questions it, as it is self perpetuating teaching, reinforcing the same belief among the same people.

Some wonderful things are coming out of that discussion :) Praise God!

Dave, I am not preoccupied with tongues - and this was not even the reason why I started the discussion. I just wanted to find my place in church, a place to serve in submission (1 Timothy 2:9-12). And, praise God some very good counsel was given so far but why did we get stuck on the tongues? As if there are not other ministries to do in the church...

So again, I encourage all to think on that. How can I find out the good works, which God has ordained for us?

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10)

That modifies a little bit the question, but in essence I think the aim is the same :)

Dave,

I respect your input as you clearly have experience and knowledge and must have gone through some things in churches that some of us may have been protected from. Maybe we've seen mostly the positive. Maybe down the line we may see eye to eye on this, however I still believe that tongues hold an important place in corporate worship and especially in personal prayer. This gift has within itself the ability to impart inner spiritual fortification and can act as a channel for all the other gifts as it causes our spirits to become super sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The scripture in Jude may or may not be referring to praying in tongues but it is not far fetched to see it so as Paul says he prays with his spirit and with his understanding, he sings with his spirit and with his understanding, clearly differentiating between human speech in prayer and spiritual/ tongues, in context.

You say:" I could speak with tongues" as in past tense.
Please explain, if you want, why you ceased to practice this and what convinced you to do so?

Blessings,

Esther, I am sorry if your discussion got sidetracked onto this one issue. I suppose there were a couple of similar topics started and they got merged together a bit. It was not my intention to concentrate on this gift, but it seems that it kept being brought forward and highlighted.

William, I don't want to get into this on this thread in respect to Esther, so I'll answer on your new post on tongues.

by TakeUptheCross
How can I find out the good works, which God has ordained for us?

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10)

That modifies a little bit the question, but in essence I think the aim is the same :)

James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
and
James 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

God bless,
Lisa