Baptism with the Holy Spirit

This thread is an offshoot of the thread "Gifts of the Spirit" posted by Esther(TakeUptheCross).

Hi Mike,

Let us discuss this point by point.

First, Acts 19:1-6 ---

My thoughts:

These people that Paul met were disciples of John. They had not yet believed in the Lord Jesus.

Acts 19:3-4 -- And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, ***** telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus *****."

The Holy Spirit is received by faith (Gal. 3:14) but these people knew nothing about the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:2 -- And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

How can they believe if they had not heard (Rom. 10:14)?

So, I would say that these people Paul met were not yet indwelled by the Holy Spirit. So, when the Holy Spirit came upon them, it was NOT the "second blessing” but the FIRST time that the Holy Spirit came, to indwell them.

Do you see any error in what I have said?

Blessings.

Acts 19:3,4 clearly states that John baptized people and told them to believe in Jesus. Read the verse again. So they knew about Jesus already. Otherwise, what did John preach? Repentance is useless without a Savior.

Acts chapter 8 NKJV --

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

These disciples had already believed in the Lord Jesus and had already been baptized in His name....

Blessings!

" For as yet He had fallen upon none of them"

Wow! Sounds different from simply being born of the Spirit, doesn't it? Sounds like additional power from above...

John was BEFORE the cross and the resurrection.

Edit to add:

John could not have preached Rom. 6:3-11

Acts chapter 8 NKJV --
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

The above verses clearly indicate that these people were believers. They had received the Word of God, they were baptized in the Lord's name, but yet they had not received the Holy Spirit.
"Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." (Acts 8:17).
They received the Holy Spirit after Peter and John laid hands on them.

"While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?”

"John’s baptism,” they replied.

4 Paul said, "John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

The Word of God says that they were disciples, they were believers, but had not yet received the Holy Spirit. They were baptized because they were believers and then when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them.

Acts 2:38 - Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Note:
(1) Repent
(2) and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins
(3) and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Is (3) the Spirit coming to indwell the believer or is it the "second blessing”?

William,

On the day of Pentecost,

Acts 2:4 - And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

Was this the Holy Spirit coming to indwell them for the first time or was this a "second blessing"?

Edit to add:
Was this also the day they were born again?

Mike,

I think we have to go back to basics.

What is "baptism"?

It is almost midnight here. Write again tomorrow,

Hi Jade,

I believe that every believer in Jesus Christ has the Holy Spirit indwelling them already, but that the baptism of the Holy Spirit often occurs sometimes quite a while after conversion.

In John 20:22,23 (and before the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost) "...He breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'"

So it seems they received the deposit of the Holy Spirit in them but the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon them in power and fulness as in the book of Acts (which is similar to the way the Spirit came upon Ezekiel, speaking to him, lifting him up and carrying him places like Philip after baptizing the Ethiopian in water in Acts etc etc)

I don't have a neat, clear explanation for how it all fits together, but it is clear that saints throughout church history, and long before the charismatic movement, have testified to a second experience (and more fillings) apart from believing and being baptized in water.

For anyone interested, wanted to share 2 books that are greatly encouraging and very balanced regarding the importance of the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a subsequent experience/blessing to be sought after conversion...

The Spirit of Christ by Andrew Murray

Joy Unspeakable: The Baptism and Gifts of the Holy Spirit by D. Martyn Lloyd Jones

I believe that every believer in Jesus Christ has the Holy Spirit indwelling them already, but that the baptism of the Holy Spirit often occurs sometimes quite a while after conversion.

In John 20:22,23 (and before the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost) "...He breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'"

Amen! The Holy Spirit came into them
(Salvation), but had not yet come upon
them. (Baptism of Holy Spirit).

Were the disciples born again and were they indwelt by the Holy Spirit in John 20:22,23?

Write again tomorrow.

I believe one of the big mistakes in our thinking is that the Baptism or filling of the Holy Spirit is a one time event and that once you have had that experience, 'you've got it'.
Scripture seems to indicate this is not so.

Acts 2:3-4
"Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

Then later.....

Acts 4:8
"Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders of Israel:"

The again later...
Acts 4:31
"And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness."

Eph 5:18\t
"And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,"

To follow up on Jade's point, baptism means to be 'immersed in' / 'overwhelmed by' or 'filled'. When we are Baptised into Christ, we are in Him and He is in us. So baptism means not just 'coming on us', but also us fully 'immersed in'. Therefore Baptism and filled are the same thing.

Being baptised in the spirit or filled with the spirit is different to being indwelt with the spirit which happens at conversion to regenerate us and makes us alive in Christ.

This mistake of thinking that folk that get an initial 'baptism in the spirit, 'have now got it' is where I think a lot of the error and false gifts comes from. Even if someone experiences a true filling and exercising of a gift like tongues or prophecy at one time, because they think they now have it, often what follows is the flesh copying that experience.

This is my experience of over 30 years of involvement with Charismatic and Pentecostal churches. I do believe in the continuance of the gifts and have exercised many of the gifts like tongues, prophecy, etc. However I very seldom speak in tongues now days because there is no need or benefit to anyone for this and I am not going to do this in the flesh. I have seen more flesh at work in the area of gifts in the church than true operation of the gifts and I agree with Zac Poonen that 95% of what people are claiming are the gifts of the spirit are not at all.

I have also seen more spiritual maturity and fruit in non- Charismatic churches than those who claim to have the fullness! How can we say they don't have the Holy spirit or that they are not full of the spirit?
If we are honest, those of us who have been around the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements for some years know this is true.

//I have also seen more spiritual maturity and fruit in non- Charismatic churches than those who claim to have the fullness! How can we say they don't have the Holy spirit or that they are not full of the spirit?
If we are honest, those of us who have been around the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements for some years know this is true.//

This has been true in my experience as well- granted I haven't visited every "charismatic" fellowship so it is somewhat of a generalization.

ADD: if I had my druthers, I'd worship with charismatics and hear preaching from and study scripture with baptists. This is also something of a generalization but perhaps you catch my drift.

This mistake of thinking that folk that get an initial 'baptism in the spirit, 'have now got it' is where I think a lot of the error and false gifts comes from. Even if someone experiences a true filling and exercising of a gift like tongues or prophecy at one time, because they think they now have it, often what follows is the flesh copying that experience.

I agree with you completely. I believe I have experienced the baptism of Holy Spirit. But I still need to be filled with the Holy Spirit every day. Else I can find my Christian life dry as well.

But I believe the gifts can remain even if the person who once got baptized in the holy spirit is not continuously filled. That is why you see those in Matt 7 who hold on to gifts but lose the anointing are caste away. I do not believe they are unbelievers. They were people with genuine gifts, but did not seek to be filled everyday.

we should never evaluate a christian by his gifts. That is why Jesus said by their fruit you know them. If we seek to evaluate by gift rather than fruit, then we are bound to be deceived.

Were the disciples born again and were they indwelt by the Holy Spirit in John 20:22,23?

I believe they were saved, because Jesus says:

"He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all." (meaning Judas Iscariot)

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (John 14:16,17)

He dwells with you and SHALL BE in you (speaking of a future event).

Another example, I think, is the conversion of the Ethiopian. God took Phillip right after the water baptism - "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Phillip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing." (Acts 8:39)

Why did not God allow Phillip to lay on hands and pray for him, so that he may receive the Holy Ghost? I do not know. But I know, that this eunuch, right there was saved - became a child of God.

And in Romans it is said that "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:9) Meaning that if anybody is in Christ, he has the Spirit of God. But that is different from baptism in the Holy Spirit.

I looked extensively at "charismatic signs" like tounges, prophecy
and healings - and at least 95% is Fake. Why? People mix & match
time lines and get lost in understanding, false docrines lead to false
experiences, and the inflow of every false spirit is permitted,
and not even detected in most cases, instead realizing that Paul the apostel
to the gentiles presents the COMPLETE gospel as it stands for us, NOW.
and nothing much else matters.

Romans 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized
into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are
buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up
from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should
walk in newness of life.

So we are baptized into Jesus Christ when be start believing and
become part of one body, now, at this point in time.

Ephesians 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

And there is 1 baptism in total

1 Corinthians 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into
one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be
bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

...and have been ALL made to drink into one Spirit, not only some
and others later, after another baptism.

so obviously this all happens at the same time, since otherwise
he would have added there is a second baptism to be sought
after the inital one when we first believed and became part of
the body. Salvation and receving the Holy Ghost is the one
and the same blessing of the 1 mentioned baptism.

Pentecostalism is : One Lord, one faith, two baptisms
(or multiple ones in individual denominations)

but since God or Paul never asked anyone to search for
a second baptism, what exactly did you receive the second time
after you already had received everything God promised?

Something extra, correct. But not anything God promised to give,
at this point any additional wilful baptism (that many denominations
ask of members when you join them) is leaving Bible doctrine
behind and Paul would have rebuked it strongly.

You now have received something extra to the Holy Ghost but
you have to realize it is something Paul ( the Apostle to the
gentiles - you remember ), not asked to wait for, tarry or
search for. So you are on your own to explain that you did
anyway to Jesus when you meet him.

These above verses are about the only significant verses
AFTER Pentecost concerning baptisms, there is no extra
mentions by Paul, John or Peter about a separate
baptism to look or search for, so this is still valid today, unlike
anything pre or during pentecost the time of transition.
Also after acts no mention is ever made of an interval
between conversion and the reception of the Spirit.
It's not mentioned because it does not exist, it's man-made,
based on personal experience - not doctrine, and
to ask God to support man-made religion is a very futile act.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit usually concludes water baptism. I got the baptism with the Holy Spirit after conversion and after a team of praying Christians cast out a number of demons from me, yet it was before my water baptism.

When you get baptised with the Holy Spirit there is a witness to the human spirit that you received Him. You will know beyond doubt. He is not just a theological object but a person.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Romans 8:16 KJV

You can know a person on a personal level and have a 2 way communication with them.

People do not get they baptism due to various reasons, here are a few:
lack of proper teaching
too much focus on manifestations
An unsurrendered heart - Jesus is saviour but not Lord
Fearmongering by some teaching
Unconfessed sin

Main reason: They never bothered to ask!

Dear brother Eli (?), have you ever asked God to baptize you with His Spirit?

And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Luke 11:9”­-”¬13 KJV

edited

"Acts 4:8
"Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders of Israel:"

The again later...
Acts 4:31
"And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness."

Brother Dave and all my brethren. Maybe we should move away from labeling our churches Charismatic, Pentecostal or Non...and simply ask this question:
In light of the above verses, can the same be said in our assemblies about ourselves and our leaders?

Selah

BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT

Acts 1:4-5 -- Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

That great day came in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost.

So, according to the Lord Jesus’ words in Acts 1:4-5, the believers were BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT on that Day of Pentecost.

The word "baptize” is simply transliterated from the Greek word "baptizo” in our English Bibles. It is not translated.

What does the Greek word "baptizo” mean?

Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary gives this definition:

"Baptizo, ‘to baptize,’ primarily a frequentative form of bapto, ‘to dip,’ was used among the Greeks to signify the dyeing of a garment, or the drawing of water by dipping a vessel into another, etc. Plutarchus uses it of the drawing wine by dipping the cup into the bowl.”

In the dyeing of the garment:
(1) The garment is immersed in the dye
(2) The dye saturates (or fills) the garment

In the drawing of wine by dipping the cup into the bowl:
(1) The cup is immersed in the wine in the bowl
(2) The wine in the bowl fills the cup.

Therefore when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit:

(1) We are immersed in the Holy Spirit.

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being” (Acts 17:28).

(2) The Holy Spirit fills us.

We are God’s temple in which the Holy Spirit lives (1 Cor. 3:16).
The Holy Spirit is in us as a "well of water springing up to eternal life” (John 4:14).
The Holy Spirit shall flow like rivers of living water from our innermost being (John 7:38-39).
We are joined to the Lord and is one spirit with Him (1 Cor. 6:17).

"And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing -- let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting -- let him come; and he who is willing -- let him take the water of life freely” (Rev. 22:17 YLT).

We can have the Holy Spirit in us "ankle-deep”, "knee-deep”, "waist-deep” or "a river that could not be forded” (Ezek. 47) according to our faith in the Lord Jesus. John 7:38 -- ***** He who believes in Me *****..... From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.”

Filling also needs emptying. The measure of the Holy Spirit we can have in us is also dependent on how much we have emptied ourselves of self/flesh and the desires of the world.

Note:

I am not disputing that there are many who have had a special and overwhelming experience of the peace and joy and power of the Holy Spirit. My own thought on this is that there are too many Christians who are still "babes” and the Holy Spirit in them is grieved and quenched. So God gives a special filling of the Spirit to get His work done in them and/or through them. How else can there be revival in a parched and dry land?

The Second Blessing
IN the life of the believer there sometimes comes a crisis, as clearly marked as his conversion, in which he passes out of a life of continual feebleness and failure to one of strength, and victory, and abiding rest. The transition has been called the Second Blessing. Many have objected to the phrase, as being unscriptural, or as tending to make a rule for all, what was only a mode of experience in some. Others have used it as helping to express clearly in human words what ought to be taught to believers as a possible deliverance from the ordinary life of the Christian, to one of abiding fellowship with God, and entire devotion to His service. In introducing it. into the title of this book, I have indicated my belief that, rightly understood, the words express a scriptural truth, and may be a help to believers in putting clearly before them what they may expect from God. Let me try and make clear how I think we ought to understand it.

I have connected the expression with the two Covenants. Why was it that God made two Covenants-not one, and not three? Because there were two parties concerned. In the First Covenant man was to prove what he could do, and what he was. In the Second, God would show what He would do. The former was the time of needed preparation ; the latter, the time of Divine fulfilment. The same necessity as there was for this in the race, exists in the individual too.

Conversion makes of a sinner a child of God, full of ignorance and weakness, without any conception of what the whole-hearted devotion is that God asks of him, or the full possession God is ready to take of him. In some cases the transition from the elementary stage is by a gradual growth and enlightenment. But experiences teaches, that in the great majority of cases this healthy growth is not found. To those who have never found the secret of a healthy growth, of victory over sin and perfect rest in God, and have possibly despaired of ever finding it, because all their efforts have been failures, it has often been a wonderful help to learn that it is possible by a single decisive step, bringing them into a right relationship to Christ, His Spirit, and His strength, to enter upon an entirely new life.

What is needed to help a man to take that step is very simple. He must see and confess the wrongness, the sin, of the life he is living, not in harmony with God's will. He must see and believe in the life which Scripture holds out, which Christ Jesus promises to work and maintain in him. As he sees that his failure has been owing to his striving in his own strength, and believes that our Lord Jesus will actually work all in him in Divine power, he takes courage, and dares surrender himself to Christ anew. Confessing and giving up all that is of self and sin, yielding himself wholly to Christ and His service, he believes and receives a new power to live his life by the faith of the Son of God. The change is in many cases as clear, as marked, as wonderful, as conversion. For lack of a better name, that of A Second Blessing came most naturally.

When once it is seen how greatly this change is needed in the life of most Christians, and how entirely it rests on faith in Christ and His power, as revealed in the Word, all doubt as to its scripturalness will be removed. And when once its truth is seen, we shall be surprised to find how, throughout Scripture, in history and teaching, we find what illustrates and confirms it.

Take the twofold passage of Israel through water, first out of Egypt, then into Canaan. The wilderness journey was the result of unbelief and disobedience, allowed by God to
humble them, and prove them, and show what was in their heart. When this purpose had been accomplished, a second blessing led them through Jordan as mightily into Canaan, as the first had brought them through the Red Sea out of Egypt.

Or take the Holy Place and the Holiest of All, as types of the life in the two covenants, and equally in the two stages of Christian experience. In the former, very real access to God and fellowship with Him, but always with a veil between. In the latter, the full access, through a rent veil, into the immediate presence of. God, and the full experience of the power of the heavenly life. As the eyes are opened to see how terribly the average Christian life comes short of God's purpose, and how truly the mingled life can be expelled by the power of a new revelation of what God waits to do, the types of Scripture will shine with a new meaning.

Or look to the teachings of the New Testament. In Romans, Paul contrasts the life of the Christian under the law with that under grace, the spirit of bondage with the Spirit of adoption. What does this mean but that Christians may still be living under the law and its bondage, that they need to come out of this into the full life of grace and liberty through the Holy Spirit, and that, when first they seethe difference, nothing is needed but the surrender of faith, to accept and experience what grace will do by the Holy Spirit.

To the Corinthians, Paul writes of some being carnal, and still babes, walking as men after the flesh ; others being spiritual, with spiritual discernment and character. To the Galatians, he speaks of the liberty with which Christ, by the Spirit, makes free from the law, in contrast to those who sought to perfect in the flesh, what was begun in the Spirit, and who gloried in the flesh; -all to call them to recognise the danger of the carnal, divided life, and to come at once to the life of faith, the life in the Spirit, which alone is according to God's will.

Everywhere we see in Scripture, what the state of the Church at the present day confirms, that conversion is only the gate that leads into the path of life, and that within that gate there is still great danger of mistaking the path, of turning aside, or turning back, and that where this has taken place we are called at once, and with our whole heart, to turn and give ourselves to nothing less than all that Christ is willing to work in us.

Just as there are many who have always thought that conversion must be slow, and gradual, and uncertain, and cannot understand how it can be sudden and final, because they only take man's powers into account, so many cannot see how the revelation of the true life of holiness, and the entrance on it by faith out of a life of self effort and failure, may be immediate and permanent. They look too much to man's efforts, and know not how ***** the second blessing is nothing more nor less than a new vision of what Christ is willing to work in us, and the surrender of faith that yields all to Him *****

I would fain hope that what I have written in this book may help some to see that *****the second blessing is just what they need, is what God by His Spirit will work in them, is nothing but the acceptance of Christ in all His saving power as our strength and life, and is what will bring them into, and fit them for, that full life in the New Covenant, in which God works all in all. *****

Let me close this note with a quotation from the introduction to a little book just published, Dying to Self: A Golden Dialogue, by William Law, with notes by A. M. :

"A great deal has been said against the use of the terms, the Higher Life, the Second Blessing. In Law one finds nothing of such language, but of the deep truth of which they are the, perhaps defective, expression, his book is full. The points on which so much stress is laid in what is called Keswick teaching, stand prominently out in his whole argument. The low state of the average life of believers, the cause of all failure as coming from self-confidence, the need of an entire surrender of the whole being to the operation of God, the call to turn to Christ as the One and Sure Deliverer from the power of self, the Divine certainty of a better life for all who will in self-despair trust Christ for it, and the heavenly joy of a life in which the Spirit of Love fills the heart-these truths are common to both. What makes Law's putting of the truth of special value is the way in which he shows how humility and utter self-despair, with the resignation to God's mighty working in simple faith, is the infallible way to be delivered from self, and have the Spirit of Love born in the heart."

I am not disputing that there are many who have had a special and overwhelming experience of the peace and joy and power of the Holy Spirit. My own thought on this is that there are too many Christians who are still "babes” and the Holy Spirit in them is grieved and quenched. So God gives a special filling of the Spirit to get His work done in them and/or through them. How else can there be revival in a parched and dry land?

Brother no one here is saying that Holy Spirit comes upon a person only during baptism of Holy Spirit. All the verses you quoted only show that we receive Holy Spirit when we are born again. Which is true. Holy Spirit is inside every believer. It is the Holy Spirit who made them repent initially and also made them believe that their sins are forgiven.

Some receive Baptism of Holy Spirit during the time they are born again. But not all. I did not receive the fullness when I was born again. The main reason was, God did not want to share his glory with me. My self power was so strong and I thought I can live the Christian life by my own effort. God waited till I failed completely. Now I have nothing to boast. I know apart from him I can do nothing. The self is totally broken.

John 16:7 (KJV) -- Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Some great points Jade, thank you.

Speaking of the Spirit, in his sermon Peter mentions that they will experience "times of refreshing in the presence of the Lord"

Sound pretty powerful, knowable and tangible, doesn't it?

We all agree that a born again believer has the Spirit dwelling in him. But not all are walking in the ministry of the Holy Spirit as in His manifestation and gifts.

You quote the scriptures which also seem to differentiate:
In one, He is a well......quenching our personal thirst
In the other He is streams of living water...ministering to others

Many acknowledge Him as the well but have not trusted Him for the rivers?

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

And there is 1 baptism in total

I think it is important that we look at scripture in full context. Paul is not here trying to do anything even close to make a point that there are not multiple baptisms in scripture. He is trying to make the point to the church at Ephesus that they should be striving to keep the unity of the Spirit. He is saying this (paraphrased).

Look guys. You need to be striving to stay in unity. Aren't you all part of the same body of Christ? Aren't you in fellowship with the same spirit? Don't you all have the same hope of your calling...Weren't you all baptized with the same baptism?

If you will look carefully, this is exactly what 1 Cor. 12:13 is saying. If you will study scripture carefully, there are multiple types of baptisms.

Andrew Murray- The Baptism of the Spirit:

https://img.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic_pdf.php?topic_id=32810&forum=34

Have You Received the Holy Spirit Since You Believed?
https://coldwaterstoathirstysoul.wordpress.com/2011/12/01/have-you-received-the-holy-spirit-since-you-believed/
By Derek Prince

Hi all,

I am a SISTER!!

Re: "If you will look carefully, this is exactly what 1 Cor. 12:13 is saying.
If you will study scripture carefully, there are multiple types of baptisms."

None of it is of any significance for us today, Paul's work can stand
alone, his gospel is complete, and you will miss nothing.
We don't live 2000 years ago and are not Jews under the law in the
transition to believe in Jesus and unto the mystery of the gospel.

Here is something by Alfred H. Pohl about why some differ
with Paul's teaching and value their experiences higher than him:

Formulating doctrine in the Book of Acts

In studying the Book of Acts, the careful student must
recognize several important characteristics of the book.
Unless he does, he can come up with strange, peculiar and
erroneous doctrines, which in fact, many have done.

Consider with me the following four characteristics of Acts
which I have called, "Keys to a Proper Understanding of
the Book of Acts”:

1. That it is, primarily, a historical book, not a doctrinal
book as the epistles are.

2. That it is a book recording the transition from the Old
Testament to the New Testament, from the Age of Law
to the Age of Grace-the Church Age.

3. That it is a book recording the beginnings of the Church.

4. That it is a book that primarily centres around Christ’s
apostles””it is indeed "The Acts of the Apostles.”

Key 1: Acts is primarily, a HISTORICAL BOOK, not a
doctrinal book.

On the other hand, the Epistles were written primarily to
reveal and teach church doctrine. It is dangerous, then, to
begin to formulate our doctrines on the historical happenings
in Acts

a) because there is a very real possibility that we will
misinterpret the recorded happenings. Obviously, just that is
being done, for we do have so many different interpretations,
all from the same Book of Acts;

b) because Acts is a book of transition and church
beginnings, the full revelation of church truth is not yet there
recorded or revealed. That is given to us in the Epistles.

In the Epistles we have the "full bloom” of New Testament
revelation or church truth. That that is so, may I remind you
of Paul’s oft-repeated statement, "Behold, I show you a
mystery.” What did he mean by "mystery?” Obviously, it
was a New Testament truth not formerly revealed, even in
Acts, but was being revealed in the Epistles. See 1
Corinthians 15:51-52; Ephesians 3:1-6, etc. We must be very
careful, then, to look at events in the book of Acts in and
with the full light of the Epistles to guide us in formulating
our doctrines.

Key 2: Acts is a record of the TRANSITION from the
Old Testament to the New Testament, from the Age of
Law to the Age of Grace, the Church age.

Unless this fact is recognized we invite the possibility of
wrong interpretation. When I teach the book of Acts, I
usually suggest seven reasons why it must be considered a
book of transition. May I just point out two of these reasons
here briefly by asking these questions:

First, should a believer in the Church age be baptized
before or after receiving the Holy Spirit? In Acts 8:12-17 and
in Acts 19:5-6 we read that they were baptized before they
received the Holy Spirit. But in Acts 10:44-48 they were
baptized after. Both practices are recorded in Acts. Which is
right?

Secondly, should a believer be baptized in water more than
once? In Acts 19:3-5 we read that the twelve men at Ephesus
who had already been baptized were re-baptized under Paul’s
ministry. Why? Is this to be the normal practice throughout
the Church age? Or must we here recognize a transition””of
Old Testament believers coming into the Church age, into the
Church? As we read Acts 19:1-7 carefully, we discover that
these twelve men were disciples of John the Baptist coming
in transition into the church. Paul recognized the transition,
or else, why did he baptize them again? Was it not because
he recognized that their first baptism in water was not a valid
baptism for believers in the Church age, for "Christians?”

Key 3: Acts is a record of the Church’s BEGINNINGS.

Consider this: First, God was introducing a new plan and
program, and forming a new body, the Church, which did not
exist in the Old Testament but had its beginnings in Acts.

What happened at Pentecost (Acts 2), Samaria (Acts 8),
Caesarea (Acts 10) and Ephesus (Acts 19), is not an advance
in the old body, that is, the body of Old Testament believers,
but, rather, is the beginning of the new Body, the Church.

Secondly, inaugural events usually are unique, onetime
events not necessarily repeated thereafter. Just as at the
beginning of the Age of Law at Mount Sinai (Ex. 19:16-18),
there were certain unusual events which were not repeated,
so we can expect that certain unique and unusual events
which occurred at the beginning of the Church age, were not
meant for duplication throughout the entire Church age.

Thirdly, events that occurred at the inauguration of the
Church do not necessarily have to be adopted as the
permanent pattern for the Holy Spirit’s ministry throughout
the entire Church age.

Key 4: Acts is a book that primarily centres around
Christ’s APOSTLES.

Note the title, "The Acts of the Apostles.” In it the Holy
Spirit describes the prominence, the importance, and the
authority of these men who were specially chosen by the
Lord to personally represent Him in the completion of the
laying of the foundation of the church. This is clearly
expressed in Ephesians 2:20: "And are built upon the
foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself
being the chief corner stone.”

The Lord Jesus had begun the foundation of the Church,
but left the completion of that task to these chosen men to
whom He gave, not only great responsibility, but also great
authority and power.

To the apostles, and to those whom they authorized, were
given credentials, attesting signs, the very attesting signs that
Christ Himself had, to enable them to complete the Church’s
foundation, which, of course, relates to its beginning. That is
what Paul is speaking about in 2 Corinthians 12:12: "Truly
the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all
patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.”
See also Hebrews 2:3-4.

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great
salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by
the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that
heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with
signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and
gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

QUESTION: If every Christian could perform "signs,
wonders, mighty deeds,” then where or what are the "signs
of an apostle” that Paul is speaking about? Therefore
consider: special sign credentials were given to the apostles
for the laying of the church’s foundation. These "signs,
wonders, mighty deeds” were meant for the church’s
beginnings or inauguration and not meant to be the normal
pattern throughout the entire church age. Yet many are
endeavouring to duplicate these things today, the things that
belonged to the apostles and the church’s beginnings.

In concluding this section, may I repeat that we must be
careful about formulating our doctrines in Acts because it is
a historical book and not primarily a book of doctrine. We
must recognize it’s transitional character and also that it is
the record of the church’s beginnings as God used His
specially chosen and empowered apostles to finish the
foundation of the church. We should, therefore, understand
the events recorded in Acts in the light of the "full-bloom” of
divine revelation as given to us in the doctrinal epistles.

source: 17 Reasons Why I Left The Tongues Movement
by Alfred H. Pohl

There are some people who would not believe
in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today even if the dead were raised right in front of them.

Nobody who has experienced the baptism with the Holy Spirit would argue like our brother.

Christianity without the power of the Holy Spirit is reduced to a moral framework that brings death to the hearer.

It takes a lot of time to understand, especially when you
learned it the wrong way, some things you can read 5 times
without ever understanding what he said exactly,
until finally suddenly you can see the clarity of it,
here in the words of Harry Ironside from his chapter:

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and of Fire

"......in Paul's epistle to the Corinthians
where it is shown to be something past, in which all who were
believers had shared: "By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,
whether we be Jews or Gentiles" (1 Cor. 12:13), and the epistle is
addressed to "all that in every place, call upon the name of Jesus Christ
our Lord" (1 Cor. 1:2). Many of them were weak Christians, many
were carnal, many failed to enter into much of the glorious truth
pertaining to the New Dispensation, but all were baptized by the one
Spirit into the one body of Christ"

"....if [you are] not already numbered among those baptized by the
Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, you may now receive the Spirit
by the hearing of faith, as did the Galatians of old when they believed
the things spoken by Paul (Gal. 3:2,3)."

So he says the baptism of the church by the Holy Spirit is past tense,
one baptism for all believers

We now Receive The Spirit by hearing of God's word
by faith and not by acts of the law [or any religious activity]

Once you can see that you understand why there is no further
mention of a second blessing or baptism of the Holy Spirit

NP, I'm not a cessationist and I am not endorsing the article that A-servant posted. I think I have a similar church experience as you in being part of 'bible centred' charismatic leaning churches for many years. However I do question much of what has been taught and accepted in these circles. I know the arguments and scriptures used to support Charismatic position and I also know many of them do not stand up to correct biblical interpretation.

I just want to question the statements you posted to think are they valid?

You said:
1/ "There are some people who would not believe
in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today even if the dead were raised right in front of them."

2/ "Nobody who has experienced the baptism with the Holy Spirit would argue like our brother."

3/ "Christianity without the power of the Holy Spirit is reduced to a moral framework that brings death to the hearer."

Point 1/ Should we really base our doctrinal position of the ministry of the Holy Spirit on a miracle? What about false signs and wonders? Paul said even if an angel was to appear to us with a message, do not believe it if it is contrary to what has already been taught.

Point 2/ Should we base our doctrinal position on subjective experience or on the revealed word of God?

Point 3/ This is really a false representation of people who do not believe in the second blessing or Baptism of the Spirit. I don't know any believers, even the most ardent cessationists ( and I know quite a few) who would not declare they need the power of the Holy Spirit in their life and ministry. They just don't believe in the 'sign gifts' for today (i.e tongues, prophecies, healing miracles). We can disagree with them on these points, but that does not mean they reject the ministry of the Holy Spirit completely.

Now having said all that, I do think the cessationists are also twisting scriptures to validate their position. Somewhere between the two extremes of cessationism and 'second blessing' folk there is a truth that we need to get from scripture. I tend to lean toward the view that the filling and empowering of the Spirit is distinct from the indwelling abiding ministry of the Spirit and necessary for all believers and that the gifts given are still for the church today, as and when the Holy Spirit chooses to give them for a particular time/place as the need arises.

I don't believe there is a second blessing category of Christians, but a second, third, fourth, and infinitum and that it is available for all to partake in if we yield ourselves to the LORD. There are multitudes who claim to have the 'Baptism/second blessing' that are not at all full of the Holy Spirit..this is a big problem in the church today and needs to be faced. It is a direct result of wrong theology.

Bro Dave,

I understand that you are trying to find the perfect balance and the correct scriptural interpretation and I agree with you that we should stand against excesses and for biblical truth.

Whether we believe we received the Holy Spirit at conversion or later is not as important as that we have received Him, and are being filled every day and depending on Him in all we do, including ministry.
But this must include everything the Holy Spirit can and wants to do in and through His people.
Surely a miraculous supernatural Spirit is going to produce supernatural miraculous results? Not weirdness...

One cannot help but notice the different quality even in preaching between those who are "Spirit filled" and those who deny that signs and wonders are for today.

It is great to emphasize the fruit of the Spirit and yes, character is very important in our Christian witness, but so is the Power of God in demonstration.
Is the Holy Spirit divided?

To Timothy Paul said:" for you have not received a spirit of timidity but of Power, Love AND a sound mind (self control)"
Compare that to 1 Corinthians 12,13 and 14.
Power. Love and Self control

I Thessalonians 5 verse 19 to 21:" Do not extinguish (quench) the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but examine all things and hold fast to what is good"

Seems to me that tongues and interpretation, prophecies and all the gifts the Holy Spirit brings with Himself was intended to be a part of "normal" church body life.

Paul said to the Corinthians....I speak with tongues more than you all....
He wasn't speaking about preaching to a foreign people in a foreign language, was he?
No, he was speaking of the personal prayer language/ languages the Holy Spirit will give to those who trust Him for it.

Those who hold "Strange Fire" conferences would do better to hold "No Fire" conferences and have days of repentance for grieving and quenching this precious gift of God to us, His Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

Bro William,

Thanks for your reply. I think this in a worthwhile topic to discuss and be open about. I'm certainly not in the mind to argue (nor I sense you), but want to be open to think about these things more carefully. I think there is far too much misrepresentation from both sides on this issue. The cessationists look on the 'baptism of the Spirit' guys as all cut from the Benny Hinn/Ken Copeland cloth and the the Baptism guys consider all the Cessationist to be devoid of the Spirit and dry as old bones. Both are unfair assumptions.
__________________________________________________________
You said: "Whether we believe we received the Holy Spirit at conversion or later is not as important as that we have received Him, and are being filled every day and depending on Him in all we do, including ministry."
----------------------------------------------------------
Although I agree with you on this, when you say "..important as that we have received Him (the Holy Spirit)", well if someone is born again of the Spirit they have received Him, otherwise they do not belong to Christ (Romans 8). It's not have we received the Holy Spirit, but are we 'filled' with the Spirit. The inference in your statement is that the cessationist folk have not received the Spirit, which cannot be true is they are truely born again.

__________________________________________________________
You said: "Seems to me that tongues and interpretation, prophecies and all the gifts the Holy Spirit brings with Himself was intended to be a part of "normal" church body life."
-----------------------------------------------------------
This 'tongues and interpretation' has a whole lot of Charismatic/Pentecostal 'traditions' that I think do not stand up to scriptural or reasonable logic. I'm speaking as someone who has exercised the gift of tongues.
generally it goes like this. Someone speaks out in an unknown tongue, then another interprets said 'tongue, normally as a prophetic word. Now how do we really know if the is really the correct interpretation?? Hardly ever will it be questioned. Plus why have a prophecy in a language we don't know, just for it to be supposedly interpreted. Why not just have a prophecy in the language of the people, which is what Paul tell us to do in 1 Corinthians.
Thirdly Paul says when we speak in 'tongues' we "speak to God and not man", so it cannot be a prophecy according to this. As I said, too many Pentecostal traditions, almost as bad as the cessationist with their 'traditions'.

___________________________________________________________
You said: "Those who hold "Strange Fire" conferences would do better to hold "No Fire" conferences and have days of repentance for grieving and quenching this precious gift of God to us, His Holy Spirit."
-----------------------------------------------------------
I agree with your sentiments about the wisdom and content of such conferences. But it must be said that the vast majority (and largest churches) in the Charismatic movement promoting the 'gifts of the Spirit' are on the crazy end and are operating in 'strange fire' and this does need exposing (we all know the ones that folk are flocking to) and it is this that the likes of MacArthur are aiming at. The problem is, as a cessationist he labels all those who operate in the spiritual gifts as the same, even his own associated people such as John Piper and Tim Conway.

I am going to get grilled for this but I think Paul had a "slip of then pen" or more likely transcribers did, at 1 Cor 14:22 based on reasoning given by Dave which I agree with. It seems the thought in that verse should be reversed based on what Paul wrote earlier in Ch 14

by bearmaster
That still begs the question why the persecuted church in restricted nations operates in Acts 1:8 power. One brother who has a persecuted ministry in a restricted nation, says we step outside our door and see the book of Acts in operation.

I read a book on fasting and in it, the writer was asked why when he ministered in other nations there were miraculous healings and not in America. I'm paraphrasing what he said, 'it was because we have health insurance, no one needs God in that manner.'

I'm thinking we have become slaves in Egypt (health care system) and did not even know it. I and others told numerous people since Obamacare came into being, we need to learn to believe the Bible and lay hands on the sick AND EXPECT MIRACLES

Health care $$$ is taking precedent over how much life will they get out of the care. It's sad but I believe this is happening for a reason... to get people to cry out to God.

Gifts 4, 5 and 6 are the gift of faith, gifts of healings and the working of miracles. These gifts are for the taking if one wants to go boldly to the throne of grace!!

Will everyone be healed that we lay hands on? No, but we can't let that stop us from praying in faith believing and in the name of Jesus and letting Him heal who He wants!

God is good,
Lisa

Bro Dave,

Tongues and interpretation of tongues is right there in the list of gifts so no reason to question its validity. Why have it? Because that is how God willed it.
It works similarly to prophecy and can be judged the same way. Paul said let two or three prophesy and the others examine what is prophesied.

Even if people are concerned about tongues, where are the prophecies in our gatherings? How can it be possible to be filled by the Spirit and never have the desire to prophecy, or testify, in an inspired way. This concerns me greatly.
Can we be filled and controlled by the Spirit and never be moved?

In the OT when Saul came among the prophets the Holy Spirit came upon him and he was changed into another man!

Just as we should not have the gifts without the fruit, we should also not have the fruit but manifest no gifts.
The fruit of love, patience, kindness etc. is certainly not going to bring about deliverance from demons or healing of the sick?

Those from " reformed" or non Pentecostal/ Charismatic backgrounds ( I hate having to use those terms because Christ's church is one) please answer me this...
Do you believe a person can be possessed by demons?
If you do, what will you do for such a person if they come to you for help in their sane moments?
If there are demons, the gift of discerning of spirits is required, and the power of the Spirit is needed to cast them out.
If that gift is required then why not all the others?

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Blessings,

Hi Dave, here are my replies to your points:

1/ "There are some people who would not believe
in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today even if the dead were raised right in front of them."
Point 1/ Should we really base our doctrinal position of the ministry of the Holy Spirit on a miracle? What about false signs and wonders? Paul said even if an angel was to appear to us with a message, do not believe it if it is contrary to what has already been taught.

Here I talk about faith and the power of God given to the believer, no so much a doctrinal position. Yes, there are false signs and wonders. Satan counterfeits whatever he can.
Signs follow the preaching of the Kingdom of God, they are a demonstration of its power.
The upsetting thing about faith is that it works more in children than in theologians.
Satan can kill, but he cannot raise the dead, because it is outside his domain.

2/ "Nobody who has experienced the baptism with the Holy Spirit would argue like our brother."

Point 2/ Should we base our doctrinal position on subjective experience or on the revealed word of God?

Jesus announced the ministry of the Holy Spirit long before He was given. He spoke much about it but the disciples had no clue what he was talking about. So there was a word of promise, doctrine that preceded the fulfillment. Later on it was experienced by the disciples. I believe much of theology is very practical instruction not only to believe but also to apply and to experience.

We lack much of the experience because in our Christian walk we hardly come to the point were we for example are accused before tribunals and can speak irrefutable words without preparation or drink poisonous drink or lift up serpents.
These words can be very comforting in times of persecution which may be ahead of us.

3/ "Christianity without the power of the Holy Spirit is reduced to a moral framework that brings death to the hearer."

Point 3/ This is really a false representation of people who do not believe in the second blessing or Baptism of the Spirit. I don't know any believers, even the most ardent cessationists ( and I know quite a few) who would not declare they need the power of the Holy Spirit in their life and ministry. They just don't believe in the 'sign gifts' for today (i.e tongues, prophecies, healing miracles). We can disagree with them on these points, but that does not mean they reject the ministry of the Holy Spirit completely.

This is what Jesus accused the Pharisees of on Mat 23:27-36.
These were those who rejected what they did not know.

However, I do acknowledge that there are people like Apollos, who were burning in the Spirit but did not know the baptism of the Holy Spirit. In his case it was ignorance and not rejection. There is a world of difference between the 2. We are not told, but I do believe he later agreed with Aquila and Priscilla, otherwise Paul would not have tried to persuade him to come to Corinth again.

I really appreciate what Aquila and Priscilla did. Apollos was mighty in the scriptures and burning in the Spirit. He must have been a living OT concordance, enzyclopedia and commentary in one, but he was not big-headed but humble enough to accept Aquila and Priscilla's exposition - and subsequently experienced the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

It is sad that much of Christendom fall into either the cessationist or sensationalist camp, or they believe in the work and ministry of the Spirit but nearly never actually experience it.
I long for the day when the church will come to embrace both Word and Spirit, as Smith Wigglesworth prophesied and in 1947 and David Pawson elaborated in his book "Word and Spirit together"

It takes a lot of time to understand, especially when you
learned it the wrong way, some things you can read 5 times
without ever understanding what he said exactly,
until finally suddenly you can see the clarity of it,
here in the words of Harry Ironside from his chapter:

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and of Fire

"......in Paul's epistle to the Corinthians
where it is shown to be something past, in which all who were
believers had shared: "By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,
whether we be Jews or Gentiles" (1 Cor. 12:13), and the epistle is
addressed to "all that in every place, call upon the name of Jesus Christ
our Lord" (1 Cor. 1:2). Many of them were weak Christians, many
were carnal, many failed to enter into much of the glorious truth
pertaining to the New Dispensation, but all were baptized by the one
Spirit into the one body of Christ"

"....if [you are] not already numbered among those baptized by the
Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, you may now receive the Spirit
by the hearing of faith, as did the Galatians of old when they believed
the things spoken by Paul (Gal. 3:2,3)."

So he says the baptism of the church by the Holy Spirit is past tense,
one baptism for all believers

We now Receive The Spirit by hearing of God's word
by faith and not by acts of the law [or any religious activity]

Once you can see that you understand why there is no further
mention of a second blessing or baptism of the Holy Spirit

Again I would say that the context of 1 Cor. 12:13 has nothing to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The context of the verse is that we all had our entrance into the body on Christ by the same spirit, the holy spirit of God, by which we are born again, and because of this we cannot divide ourselves and one say to another that their function is not necessary to the proper health and function of the body of Christ.

You have made some pretty strong and absolute statements that seem to me to indicate that you believe very strongly that anyone who believes in the baptism of the Holy Spirit has mislearned and misunderstands scripture. I realize that this is a doctrine that you have no doubt been taught very strongly in and that you are convinced of. But may I share this perspective.

I was born again at 8 years old. My conversion was so real in my spirit that I can, 38 years later, completely relive the moment in my mind. The weight of sin removed and the knowledge of righteousness that washed over me was powerful and undeniable.

At 18 I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, with the same absolute witness of God. I not only spoke in other tongues as happened in 3 out of 4 recorded instances in the new testament, but I sang in tongues as Paul says he did in 1 Corinthians. Another person who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit the same evening also sang with me. Two people sining a song in another tongue in perfect unison, without missing a single word or a single note. It was totally supernatural.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit has been a source of power in my life ever since. I have not only seen many men and women used by God in the gifts of the Spirit, but God has used me in words of wisdom and knowledge, in prophecy, and in a gift of healing.

I say all that to say this. If the baptism of the Holy Spirit as in Acts 2 and other places in Acts was only for the inception of the church, and does not now happen, then you must conclude that my experience is not real. And, if not real, then you must conclude that it is either totally of my flesh or that it is demonic in origin. However I can tell you, as one who has experienced for myself, that it is neither of these.

Please do not misunderstand what I am saying. I am in no way trying to be contentious or to argue with you. I am simply trying to say that for one who has experienced this wonderful induing of power from God, there is no way that person can be convinced otherwise by man's wisdom. I am completely sure, based on what I read of history, that Ironside was a wonderful man of God and was a great teacher. If I could have known him, I am sure I would have counted it an honor.
However, I would have to say that He is mistaken in this case. I have experienced and continue to experience as a present day reality that which he claims to be past tense if indeed the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what he talks about.

The best way I have to explain it is this. When I am born again, I do receive the Holy Spirit of God as an abiding presence. However through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit I am indued with power by the Holy Spirit. Same Spirit. Different type of or if you will level of communion with that same Spirit.

By the way, I would also say this. The book of Acts covers the history of the first 70 years or so of church history. There are great numbers of historical church writings from then until now that replete with mention of the second blessing or the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The epistles were all written during the time period covered by the historical book of Acts. In 1 Corinthians especially there is extensive mention of and teaching on the baptism of the Holy Spirit (see chapters 2, and 12-14).

Those who believe in the 'gifts of the Spirit' (and I count myself in that) cannot see they are just as dogmatic in their views and interpretation of scriptures to support their practice as those of the opposite opinion. But I guess we are all too defensive to want to consider if we have got it right.

William, concerning tongues and interpretation, if you read Paul's argument in 1 Corinthians he clearly says that we should desire to prophecy rather than speak an unknown tongue, because prophecy will be understood by all, but tongues will not. This obviously means that the prophecy will be in the language of the congregation. They should only speak in a tongue publicly if there is someone who can interpret. How would you know if there was someone to interpret? I submit only if you know that there is someone there of that language! What we have today is not interpretation, but someone who at best may have a word of prophecy that has nothing to do with what may have been uttered in tongues. Can I prove that, no, but neither can you that it is an actual interpretation.
Paul also says that in the church it is the least gift, but why do pentecostal/Charismatics act as if it is the most sought after gift, in direct contradiction to what Paul wrote?

As I said there is so much that is taken as 'gospel' that is nothing more that teachings of men. I will give you just one example. Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:4 says "He who speaks in an unknown tongue edifies (builds up) himself, but he who prophecies edifies (builds up) the church".
Many teachers use this to tell us that the purpose of tongues is to build ourselves up! When in fact it is clear in the context of this whole discourse by Paul that he is actually rebuking them for being selfish in exalting themselves by tongue talking, rather than lifting up the church by prophecy.

Blaine: I agree with you but would add this. Jesus is revealed throughout the old testament. Jesus Christ and the good news of His sacrifice for our sins is witnessed by the law and the prophets. The Holy Spirit revealed this to the Apostles and they then preached it to the nations. It is absolutely amazing how much old testament scripture is quoted by Paul, Peter, and John in their letters. So they did have the written word of God, but it took the power of the Holy Spirit to reveal that word.

The same is true today. The closer my relationship with God becomes and the deeper my communion with the Holy Spirit, the more revelation of His word I receive. (Just so no one misunderstands me, when I use the word revelation, I am NOT talking about some new understanding of scripture. I am talking about the word moving from mere intellectual understanding and coming to life in my spirit. In other words, I understand the word of God in a way that bursts forth with life and causes change and movement in my heart and life.) It is the Holy Spirit that brings understanding and revelation of the word of God. Paul bears this out very clearly in 1 Corinthians 2.

What made the Galatians turn back from the Holy Spirit?

They couldnt find rest, their missing faith made them look
for "what else could we do to get a higher experience"

Pentecostals are in the same boat. They assume that Christians
for the first 1900 years did mostly not have "the baptism of
the Holy Spirit" - but now in the end of times this is going to
be corrected and restored. Mostly ignoring the NT that
the exact opposite happens just before the AC takes stage.

You can see the progression of doctrinal error when you study
church history, denominations , movements, single people
movements started by 1 one man like mormons, watchtower,
azusa etc. before 1900 and after, true Christianity progressively
gets replaced by self-centered religion and occultic influence
rises steadly over time.

The charismatic movement is a move of the endtimes, to
unite with tongue speaking catholics and tongue speaking
mormons etc.all by the "same spirit" - and unfortunately
discernment is not available in general. If it were, 100's
of mason pastors and satanists in the pulpit would be
regognized as what they are, and fired. Instead they
are the most "successful" in America, and almost nobody
thinks of them as being something other than they claim
to be. How ridiculous for someone that hasn't lost the
ability to think soberly.

As it is, the typical Charismatic has no way of knowing
the difference between a pastor that cares about the
flock and someone that just wants to impart a spirit
someone brought back from a conference, and then did
lay hands on local members, it's traceable where it all
came from. Study it!

But all the kids cry:
"But I want my baptism of the Holy Spirit and my gifts!"
Receive the Spirit by hearing of faith - of the truth you
once rejected by listening to false teachers, that also
imparted spirits they brought back from Toronto or
Lakeland and other places.

Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss
of course someone other than God then is legally
permitted to fill the void, since your lack of faith
in God's actual provision left you unimpressed
and restless, so you moved on and got "what you
wanted", although its something that will set you
up for, or is already the strong delusion, said to
be undetectable by the ones that are under it.

One of the US pentecostals I really liked for a very long
time, Henry Gruver was in a broadcast a few months
ago. I know him as a very sincere man that has a whole
life of experience behind him. He stated when asked
about the future of America that he agreed with what
the guiding spirits of George Washington told the
first president. Wow! One needs to study that subject
to find out that Washington's biograph writer made
a Christian out of him posthum, in reality he wasn't,
he was a freemason and he was listening to spirits.
And this pentecostal of long standing and mighty
works and wonders agrees with them - I could
not believe my ears.

This man prefers "what spirits say" + his own visions,
over of the Bible that puts the same events he saw
into a completely different picture with completely
different ending. America has sold out to the occult
form the very beginning. When even the believers
agree more with seducing spirits than the Spirit
of God then they are indeed in unsually severe trouble.

a-servant,

You use this phrase a lot "Receive the Spirit by hearing of faith"

What is your understanding of it?

Sherri,

The book I was talking about is, "The Hidden Power of Prayer and Fasting" by Mahesh Chavda

And another excellent book on the subject is:
Fasting for Spiritual Breakthrough: A Practical Guide to Nine Biblical Fasts by Elmer L. Towns

You wrote: "The days of Acts are not just history. Our Lord still moves in power through His precious Spirit....to deny His power is to have a form of godliness."

I totally agree with you! I look and pray for God's people to rise up and walk in HIS power (whatever His power is, believe it and walk in it!)!

God bless,
Lisa

The tongues we have today are not languages. They are gobbledygook. There is no grammatical structure to them, nor is there an extensive vocabulary of thousands of words. The tongues we have today are the same tongues also expressed by Mormons, Muslims, witches etc. They are demonic.

Thousands and millions of Christians have also been evangelized through fundamentalists who did not believe in the charismatic movement of today. They went out to the mission fields of the world and gave up their lives for Christ without anyone recording what they did. I heard a few of them speak one time at Moody's counterpart of the prairies of Alberta and believe me, the charismatic movement cannot duplicate what those obscure and humble missionaries accomplished in silence and anonymity.

To joed2:

I would be very careful in your place with the words... There is a difference between the gift of tongues and praying in tongues. And both come from God.

Yes there are groups, who have a counterfeit - that does not mean though that there is no such thing that comes from God. So to equate "the tongues we have" with Mormons, Muslim etc. is very near to blasphemy.

Sure if you speak about kind of "I invented it myself"-stuff, that would be true. But there is true praying in tongues and true gift of tongues (I shared a testimony on that already) - and that comes from God!

//They are demonic//

That's a rather outrageous statement.

1 Corinthians 14:2 "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. "

Note the apostle says "**NO ONE**" understands him, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.""

If this was talking about actual human language why does Paul say NO ONE understands him and why does he say he speaks mysteries?

I really think you should apologize to all the brethren you have grossly slandered with your statement.

Speaking only for me, joed2 didn't offend me (he lacks the power) nd it isn't me he should concern himself with if you know Who I mean. He is either from the "sola scriptura via MacArthuria" school or the IFB outfit. I have a lot of sympathy for the latter and zero interest in the former. Whatcha gonna do though?

And, so you can at least be pointed in the right direction, joed2, there is no commonality between the gifts of the Spirit and the so called "charismatics" (a term I depsise because it means nothing). Show me a praying, believing, Spirit-baptized, tongues praying woman warring before the Lord for her family, a similar minded man praying in the Holy Ghost for his church and his neighbor, Spirit filled teens seeking freedom and truth in Christ, and I will show you true pentecost and zero "charismatic".

Paul addresses division and the disunity of this whole topic in 1 Corinthians 1 - 3. There is a difference between the wisdom of men and the wisdom of God.

As a spirit filled believer I have many friends who I count as brothers in Christ who have not experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit for these reasons. They do not deny the experience, they are open and teachable and have asked God for all He desires for them, and most importantly they do not attribute the sign gifts of the Holy Spirit to the devil.

What does one call an individual who denies the clear plain teaching of the scriptures, history of the early church, and the signs, wonders, and miracles the Holy Spirit is still doing today and that Jesus Christ Himself said would follow the believer?

Is it self righteousness, a religious spirit, blasphemy, pride, an antichrist spirit? I really don't know the answer.

For one who was saved for nine years without the baptism I NEVER denied what I saw in others as far as the spiritual gifts were concerned. I just remained neutral until a major crisis came in my life that DROVE me further and deeper to God, wanting, desiring, and begging Him to have all that He desired for me.

Once I was filled, my life has never been the same, I have experienced divine healing, witnessed multiple healings, was delivered from demonic oppression, witnessed people delivered from demonic oppression, seen people saved through the power of Holy Spirit anointed preaching, faith quickened, words of wisdom, knowledge, and faith.... His voice became clearer, scripture became clearer, and religious mindsets and error were exposed in my life not to mention the ability to overcome besetting sin I struggled to put to death in the flesh. Most importantly the power and boldness to witness was far more effective and convicting to the hearer.

For clarification none of this makes me great, holy, or special but makes God so and much more.

This one thing I have learned, we as a people will never convince a demonic spirit, antichrist spirit, scoffer, unbelief, or doubt as to the reality of the fact we serve a supernatural God who has NOT changed.

With the amount of simple proof text that has been shared in these threads that a child would gladly receive without question they still choose not to believe.

Even those who self profess they are not cessationists are always posing silly questions as to why this or why that, are challenging scripture. They will say things like, "I am not a cessationist, but....."

As soon as you hear the word but, you can throw everything else that they said prior out the window. Truth is they don't believe. On the one hand they profess to believe but argue and rationalize as to why they shouldn't believe. God says a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

The 120 in the upper room that obeyed the commandment to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit were united and of one mind. Jesus is NOT coming back for a divided church, either we will speak the same thing as Paul told the Corinthians or we will be passed over.

1 Corinthians 1:10 KJV Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

As I have said before there is a difference between debate and reasoning. As spirit filled believers we need to be discerning between the two because we will never convince those who are opposing themselves when a spirit of debate is present. Reasoning on the other hand is done in love and is motivated through a gentle spirit because we have a genuine love for them and know our words will be received.

I appreciate the brothers and sisters here who are lovingly, patiently, and kindly ministering the clear truth of the ministry of the Holy Spirit. It is obvious to me as to the indwelling Holy Spirit in them. There is an undeniable unity and bearing of witness in what they say and how they say it.

But here is a word of caution when it comes to those who are relentless in their attack of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Paul warns,

Romans 16:17-18 KJV Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (18) For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Their attacks and argument are not with us personally but with the Godhead, thinking that they can have the Father and Son yet deny the Holy Spirit.

Here are some facts, you will never separate a triune God, you will never rise above your profession of faith, if you let those who have perverted, polluted, prostituted, and used the Holy Spirit for monetary gain or for their own selfish ambition define your perception of the God of the bible you are indeed a man most miserable.

You will never shorten Gods hand that it cannot save, redeem, or deliver.

When it comes to men like John MacArthur who blasphemes the genuine working of the Holy Spirit and attributing all manifestations of the Holy Spirit in sincere obedient Christians lives because of those who abuse the Holy Spirit I cannot give that man any assurance of his self professed salvation.

Jesus said that those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Apart from an experience of that of the apostle Paul I see no hope of their eyes being opened.

A final admonition from Paul to Timothy,

2 Timothy 2:11-19 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him: (12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him: if we deny Him, He also will deny us: (13) If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny Himself. (14) Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. (15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. (17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; (18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. (19) Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Joe: I totally agree that many, many people are born again, discipled, and go on to win others by those who do not believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is the case because these people are born again and indwelled by the Spirit of God. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and praise God for them.

I also agree that there are those who do not have a genuine experience. But the existence of error does not mean that truth does not exist. My great grandfather traveled to Mexico to preach. An interpreter was lined up for him, but as he began to preach, what came out of his mouth was perfectly fluent Spanish and he preached the entire sermon without the need for an interpreter. After he finished preaching he could not communicate with anyone as he did not know any Spanish.

About four or five years ago, the daughter of a good friend of mine traveled to the Dominican Republic on a mission trip with her youth group. While doing street ministry, she was asked to pray for a man. She began to pray in tongues. The interpreter and the man stood with their mouths open in wonder. When she finished praying they told her that she had prayed in perfect Spanish and had prayed for things that the man needed physically that she had absolutely no knowledge of.

Sometimes what we hear that does not seem to sound like a language is in fact a language. There is actually a known language that sounds just like assorted grunts and clicks made with the mouth.

So I think we have to be careful when we lump all tongues today under the category of demonic and when we try to pass judgement based entirely upon what we hear. Sure, there are false religions with demonic manifestation of tongues. I would totally agree with you. But the presence of the false does not make impossible the true. It only announces that there is a true that can be mimicked or faked.

Hi All,

I was busy and am just coming back to this thread. Hope to read all your posts and respond if necessary.

First, Travis’ post:

"I totally agree that many, many people are born again, discipled, and go on to win others by those who do not believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is the case because these people are born again ***** and indwelled by the Spirit of God *****. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and praise God for them.
"I also agree that there are those who do not have a genuine experience. But the existence of error does not mean that truth does not exist.”

Travis,

The Holy Spirit is a PERSON, the third Person in the Trinity. If HE indwells us, do we not already have HIM in us to do all HIS work in us? If HE is in us, do we not already have HIM in us to empower us? And would it not be so that He would not be able to work in us and empower us IF we had not known that He is in us OR had not had faith in Him OR had ignored Him OR had "grieved” Him OR "quenched” Him?

Blessings.

Add:

If we are in Rom. 8, we are full of the Spirit.
If we are in Rom. 7, we are the dry and parched land.
The way out of Rom. 7 into Rom. 8 is the full working of the CROSS in us.

Add:

What exactly is this "genuine experience" and "truth" you mentioned? Do you mean that those who have not had the experience you had are not true and genuine Christians? What is a Christian?

Hi Jade,

Since our American brethren are probably sleeping I will jump in here.

By the way, you have made some lovely points in your post.

I think Travis was referring to an earlier post by Joe (Joed ) where he refers to tongues of today as fake / demonic

Quote: "The tongues we have today are not languages. They are gobbledygook. There is no grammatical structure to them, nor is there an extensive vocabulary of thousands of words. The tongues we have today are the same tongues also expressed by Mormons, Muslims, witches etc. They are demonic."

Jade wrote:

"The Holy Spirit is a PERSON, the third Person in the Trinity. If HE indwells us, do we not already have HIM in us to do all HIS work in us? If HE is in us, do we not already have HIM in us to empower us? And would it not be so that He would not be able to work in us and empower us IF we had not known that He is in us OR had not had faith in Him OR had ignored Him OR had "grieved” Him OR "quenched” Him?"

Very good Jade, I believe you clarified the issue correctly.

Thanks, William.

This is the scriptural fact:
There are gifts of tongues but not all speak with tongues.

Once I heard a preacher giving instructions on how to speak in tongues……roll the tongue to begin etc. I am most doubtful about this. But I will not debate this further.

1 Cor. 13:8 -- Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

1 Cor. 13:13 -- But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

"Many acknowledge Him as the well but have not trusted Him for the rivers?"

Hi William,

There can be no ministry of life where the rivers of living water do not flow and we can all have the rivers of living water flowing from our innermost being by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Good article by T. Austin-Sparks:

Meeting 20 - Rivers of Living Water

3 March 1957, at Keelung, Taiwan.

For our consideration this morning, I am going to turn you to several passages of Scripture. Firstly, in the gospel by John in chapter 4 at verse 10, "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that said to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of Him, and He would have given thee living water."

Verse 14: "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

Now will you turn to chapter 7, from verse 37: "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive."

Now to the last book of the Bible, the book of the Revelation, chapter 21, at verse 6: "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

Chapter 22, verse 1: "He shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." Verse 17: "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

I expect that if you were asked what all those Scriptures are about, you would say that they are all about water. But that would be only half the truth, and really that is not what the Scriptures are about, although they all speak about water. It is not any kind of water that they are speaking about. If you look again you will find that in every case, it is called the water of Life. It is called Living Water. Now there is all the difference between Living Water and another kind of water.

Newness of Life

You know very well that in this country, as in many parts of the world, water can be quite fatal. It can be water which has disease and impurity in it and results in death. Therefore you are very careful about the water that you drink because there is water that is not living water that results in death.

There are other parts of the world where the water is without a living element in it. Perhaps you don't know much about that kind of water in this country, but if you went to a country where there is very much snow and the water is so often frozen, you will find the people in those countries suffering from a special kind of disease. It is a disease which affects the throat and it is because the vital element in the water has been killed. To avoid that particular disease, they have to put something into the water, because it is dead water and they have to make it alive. Now, that is what all these Scriptures are about. They are not talking about ordinary water, but they are recognizing the fact that there may be water, but not living water, so they are really speaking about Living Water.

Now we all know that water is a matter of life. We are so made that we must have water for our constitution. We can go longer without food, than we can go without water. So we must have water for life.

In a very real sense water means life for people. It is that which you live upon that makes a very great deal of difference with this people. You see, that is what the Lord Jesus was saying to this woman of Samaria. She came day by day to the well of Jacob to draw water. She had to do it every day of her life because that water never really satisfied; she did not take a drink of that water and then never thirst again. Her thirst returned again with every day and what we know about her in that chapter indicates that that was the kind of life that she had. She was a woman who had tried to find satisfaction in this world. I think it is very wonderful that the Lord Jesus came that way.

We know that the Lord Jesus was always led by the Holy Spirit in what He did and where He went, and we should be right in believing that that morning He had asked that He should be led that day. I think He would have prayed to His Father something like this: "Father, do lead Me today so that if there is anyone in need, I shall be brought where they are, or they will be brought to where I am." He had started the day like that and so He came on His journey and we are told that He had to pass through Samaria.

Fullness of Satisfaction

He was very tired and He came to a well and, being weary from His journey, He sat on the well while His disciples went into the city to buy food. And while He was sitting there, a woman came toward the well. God knew all about that woman, He knew her life, and He knew that she was all the time seeking for satisfaction and could not find it. And in His great mercy He led her to be in touch with His Son. The prayer of the Lord Jesus was answered then, and He spoke to her about Living Water and He said that this Living Water would so satisfy you that you would never again have to draw from the well. He said, "This water that I shall give will be a well inside of you. You have proved that the world never satisfies. I can give you complete and perfect satisfaction inside of your own heart."

Now, that is all very simple and I expect most of you are saying, "Well, we know all about that, all that is what our Christian life really means..." but I am saying this because I have something more in mind. You see that in our reading we passed from chapter 4 to chapter 7. Jesus had said to the woman that he that believes on Him shall have a well of water inside. There would be inside of him water that he could draw upon every day, that which would be a full supply inside of Him for all his personal need.

But when you move to chapter 7, you have another aspect of this. Jesus does not say there that whoever believes in Him will have a well of water there. He said, "He that believeth, out of him shall flow rivers of living water." Now do you see how the first leads to the second? You cannot give to others what you haven't got in yourself. If rivers of Living Water are to flow out to others, then you must have it in yourself first.

So John 4 relates to our own personal experience of the Lord and chapter 7 relates to our service for the Lord. Now I want to say this very simple thing. These are things which the Lord Jesus Himself said; He definitely said that whosoever believes on Him would have a well of water inside. It would be Living Water inside of him, he would have the Water of Life within like a well and that is a real challenge to us. We have come to the Lord Jesus. We have received the forgiveness of our sin, we have received assurance that we shall not come into judgment, we have received assurance that we shall go to heaven, but do we really know what this means, to have a well of water within?

We have seen that Jesus was speaking about the Holy Spirit, "This spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive." So that the Lord Jesus in the very first place is saying that you shall have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you and the Holy Spirit in you will be like a well and an inexhaustible source of Life. There would be Life in you. In the first place, you will be fully satisfied in your life. You will not want to go anywhere else for Life. You have got the answer to all your questions.

Life Triumphant Over Death

Now in your own heart, you know what it is to have the Holy Spirit of God dwelling within. You know this is a very great thing. You think of what this must have meant to this woman of Samaria. I take it that she was not a very young woman. Jesus told her that she had had five husbands and now she had got someone for the sixth but he was not her husband. All that indicates that she was not young in life, but that she had tried again and again and again to find satisfaction and death had robbed her of all satisfaction five times. Five times death had come into her home and taken away her husband.

You see, death had spoiled all her hope of satisfaction. This is a woman who had tried everything to find satisfaction and she was a disappointed woman and was disappointed with life. I think this must be indicating what happens at the end. You remember that after she had received the words of the Lord Jesus and had come to some understanding of her experience I think, she rushed back into the city and she said, "Come! See a man that told me all that I ever did. Is not this the Christ?" And then we read that they all ran out to see Jesus and they listened to Him and then they turned to the woman and they said, "Now we believe, not because of what you have said, but we have seen Him ourselves."

Now, it seems to Him to be quite evident that all in that city knew about this woman. They all knew what a disappointed life that was and if a woman like that could find satisfaction, well we will all go and see where she got it. If a person like that can find what she needs, then there must be something in it. You see, she had a testimony because she had the Life within. She had great influence with others, others were able to look at her and say, "Well, you have got something and you have got what we need. Do tell us where we can get it!" That is the simple beginning of the Christian life.

You see, first of all, the woman received the well of Life within and then it began to flow like rivers out of her to others and they came into Life through her. This is first of all our experience, and then it is our service. They are two sides to one thing. You see, the one side of this is: He that believeth. Jesus used those words in both cases.

"He that believes" firstly has the well within and the same person shall have rivers of Living Water flowing from within. These are not two Christians. This is the same person and we have to ask ourselves this morning, "Is this true of me? First of all, can I say that I know what you mean when you talk about the well of water within, that I know what you mean when you speak about Living Water welling from within?"

I know the great change from the dead water of this world to the Living Water inside. Every Christian ought to be able to say, "I know what you mean, and I know that that is my experience." But every Christian ought also to know the meaning of the second thing; it is not another Christian, it ought to be the same Christian that has rivers of Living Water flowing out of him so that other people are coming to find what they have found through you. These are Living Waters that should be going out from us to others. Wherever we go, we ought to leave Life behind us.

Faith in Jesus Christ's Work

Now I am going to go a little deeper into this matter. I am going to take an illustration in the Old Testament. I suppose that all of you know the story of Jericho. I will not stop to remind you of how Jericho was destroyed, but when that great city had been destroyed, a curse was pronounced upon it and this is how the curse went, "Cursed be the man who buildeth this city again." A curse was put upon that city. Now many years afterward, the city was rebuilt and then we come to the days of the prophets and we all know about the prophet Elisha.

One day the men from Jericho went to the prophet Elisha and said, "The position of this city is good, but there is something wrong with the water. We put all our work into the ground, we laboured that the trees might bear fruit and the trees grow. And the fruit begins to appear and then suddenly before the fruit gets ripe, it all falls to the ground. All our labour is in vain. We never get any ripe fruit from our trees and it is because there is something wrong with the water. The water is dead and it is not living."

Well, I need not tell you what Elisha did, but what I just said illustrates what this is. You see, there is a curse that rests upon this creation. When Adam sinned God said, "The ground will be cursed because of you." And from that day to this, there is a curse resting upon this whole creation.

How do we know that there is a curse upon this creation? Well, our woman of Samaria is an illustration. It does not matter how much you do, you never find satisfaction in this world. You spend your life, you use all your energy, you do everything, and then death comes and that is the end of it all. You never come into the full reward of all your labour. There is a curse upon everything. No one in this world ever comes to full satisfaction.

This world is like those trees of Jericho; the men put all their strength into the ground, they put all their intelligence into trying to cultivate their fruit. They saw the fruit begin to come out and they were full of hope and expectation. They said, "Now we are going to get something: the reward for our labour!" and all the fruit fell to the ground. It was good for nothing. That is this world. It does not matter what you do in this world, it all ends in disappointment. The men who have put all into this life have met in disappointment.

We look at that little hill outside of Jerusalem and we see someone hanging upon a cross. We know who it is that was crucified there and we look into our New Testament to see why He was crucified. Why was that young life of only 33 years cut off like that? You see, He was in the very prime of life. There ought to have been many years of fruitful service before Him. He had only lived for 30 years and He had been working for God for three years and now He is cut off from the land of the living. Why is this? All the hope and all the promise is suddenly brought to an end by death.
How disappointed His disciples were. They felt that all this should never have been. All their hopes and expectations and future were bound up with Him and now He was dead. What does all this mean?

We find it in the New Testament and this is what we read: "He who knew no sin was made sin for us." He was made a curse in our place. What is He doing? He is bearing the curse that rests upon this whole creation. He is taking on Himself all the meaning of that curse. The meaning of that curse is life ending before it ought to end; death coming in when death ought never to come in. He is taking the curse on Himself, the curse that rests upon us and the curse that rests upon the whole creation.

When His Father turned His face away from Him and His Son cried, "My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" it was because He was made a curse for us. In Him and by His Cross the curse is removed. Death is destroyed so He can give the Water of Life. The Living Water and the Holy Spirit can now come, for sin has been dealt with. Death has been dealt with and judgment has been dealt with and there is Life within.

Perhaps you remember how Peter began his letters, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." This is how we receive the well within. This is how the rivers of Living Water can flow from within: by faith in Jesus Christ as the One who took upon Himself the curse that was upon us.

Spiritual Health and Strength

Now, there is just one or two other things to say before I close. We have seen that this Living Water means newness of Life. We have seen that it means fullness of satisfaction. It means two other things. It means mighty energy from God in our life. When we drink of this Living Water, we feel greatly strengthened. The very energy of God comes into us and in that strength we can go on and on. We can do what we could never do before. The Apostle Paul put that in this way, "Strengthened with all might by His Spirit in the inward man." The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Life, but He is therefore the Spirit of Power, the very power of God in us.

And then this Living water is health. You remember one of the last things in the Bible gives us the picture of the rivers of the Water of Life and then it says that on this side and on that side of the river was the Tree of Life and leaves of the Tree are for the health of the nations. From this Water there is coming health for the nations. We know a little of how that is.

When this Water of Life goes out into the nations, a change comes about. This water makes us healthy. It cleanses us. It removes spiritual disease. It overcomes spiritual infirmity. It makes us spiritually healthy men and women.

Now, there is a great chapter in the New Testament and that chapter is all about this resurrection Life of the Lord Jesus. It is a very wonderful chapter that none of us understand. I have been reading that chapter for I suppose about 50 years or more, I have many times talked about it, but there is a lot in that chapter that I do not understand. I don't think I shall ever understand it in this life and I expect you are wondering what that chapter is. Well, it's the fifteenth chapter of the letter to the Corinthians.

You can read it at any time and you will see that it is very true that we can't understand it. There are things here which we shall only understand when we get to glory, but there is one thing that we can understand and that is the way in which the chapter finishes. I think we ought to take a look at it. 1 Corinthians 15:54-57, "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Now this is how this wonderful chapter ends, "Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord." You see, that takes us back to our Old Testament illustration. Here are these men labouring on the ground, bringing all their energy, and trying to bring forth these fruits and at the end they find it is all in vain. There is nothing for it, they have laboured in vain. Why is that? Because death was in the water.

Now 1 Corinthians 15 is the chapter of victory over death in the Lord Jesus and "Therefore," the Apostle said, "Brethren you can go on working as much as you like. You can just be always abounding in the work of the Lord and your labours will not be in vain. No death will spoil your labour because Jesus has conquered death."

Do you remember one thing that Jesus said to His disciples? He said, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and ordained you that you should go out and bear fruit, and your fruit will remain." Your fruit will not fall to the ground until it gets ripe. The fruit of your life will go on forever. Surely it is a very encouraging thing that the labour we are giving to the Lord now will not be in vain. All this is by the Living Water within.

Now, if you have not understood what I have been saying, these are not my words, these are the words of the Lord Jesus. He Himself said that he that believes on Him shall have a well inside. Do you know that in your life? And then He said he that believes on Him out of him shall flow rivers of Living Water. Do you know that in your life? That people shall know there are rivers of Living Water flowing from you; that Life comes from you wherever you go. That is the meaning of the name "Christian" that you are called. May the Lord make that true in every one of us.

Blessings

Hi Jade,

Please see my responses after your statements:

"This is the scriptural fact:
There are gifts of tongues but not all speak with tongues."

I agree as it applies to public speaking in tongues for interpretation. I believe that all may have the gift of tongues as a prayer language, though.The same Paul also said:" I wish that you all spoke with tongues...but even more that you prophecy"

"Once I heard a preacher giving instructions on how to speak in tongues……roll the tongue to begin etc. I am most doubtful about this. But I will not debate this further."

I am sure the preacher meant well, just as we would encourage our children when they are uncertain about something, however I can understand your misgivings.
I have personally prayed for people where they were immediately filled with the Spirit, physically trembled and began speaking in other tongues without any coaching from me.

"1 Cor. 13:8 -- Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away."

Contrary to the cessationists I understand the scripture as it plainly means in context, that at the final revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ these gifts will no longer be necessary. Paul was merely emphasizing the overall importance and priorities of LOVE.

"1 Cor. 13:13 -- But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love."

AMEN!

From Mike's thread regarding the Thirst for the Spirit:

" we discover that this being filled with the Holy Spirit of which the New Testament speaks is something definite and dynamic. It is something that makes a revolutionary difference in a person’s life and witness. He knows when he has it, and very soon other people know also. How different from this rather vague and mystic thing that so many people think is being filled, with the Spirit of God."

Blessings,

THE OUTPOURING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
Watchman Nee saw two aspects regarding the Holy Spirit: the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for life and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit for power. On the day the Lord rose from the dead, He breathed into the disciples the Holy Spirit (John 20:22). At that time the Holy Spirit entered into the disciples and indwelt them for the purpose of imparting life. But on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the disciples (Acts 2:4, 33). This pouring out of the Spirit was for the purpose of distributing power to the disciples. This second experience of the Spirit is what the Bible calls the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Most Christians do not see the difference between these two aspects of the Spirit. Watchman Nee, however, received a clear revelation concerning this distinction. Although he never spoke in tongues, he received repeated experiences of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Just thinking aloud.... These epistles were originally read as letters without the chapter divisions. So after having shown the better way and how tongues, prophecies, etc will someday cease, if you remove the later addition of chapter 13/ 14 division, we are still clearly told to desire te spiritual gifts along with pursuing love:

1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1 (NKJV)

"And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy."

I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned. Have not had a chance to read through this whole thread. (Thanks!)

Edited.

Excellent observation!

I am not a cessationist.

Most definitely there is the gift of tongues. And most certainly it is good to be blessed with it. But it should also be a true gift from the Holy Spirit and not a work of the flesh.

Our journeys are all different. The deep desire in my heart is to seek faith and love. It is faith and love that I earnestly pray for pray for.

I am passionate in my quest and my journey. I know the Lord is with me.

Gal. 5:6 (NET Bible) -- For in Christ Jesus ..... the only thing that matters is faith working through love.

God bless you, William.

Just thinking aloud.... These epistles were originally read as letters without the chapter divisions. So after having shown the better way and how tongues, prophecies, etc will someday cease, if you remove the later addition of chapter 13/ 14 division, we are still clearly told to desire te spiritual gifts along with pursuing love:

1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1 (NKJV)

"And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy."

I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned. Have not had a chance to read through this whole thread. (Thanks!)

I would agree and take this one step further. The entire motivation behind the gifts of the Spirit should be charity, mutual edification, the heart of God. I know we use 1 Cor. 13 for all sorts of love related situations, but in context it is specifically meant to teach the motivation behind spiritual gifts.

Thank you for the great observation.

Perhaps the gifts are to help us to reach the spiritual maturity of faith, hope and love? In Ephesians where the heavenly church is brought into view, gifts are no longer mentioned but love is everywhere there.

Add:
In contrast, the Corinthian church had many problems and lacked love.

Eye hath not seen , nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.

Jade,

I understand your viewpoint, my sister. I am simply commenting on your comments 🙂

Does spiritual maturity equate to no need for the gifts?
Should we try and split the Holy Spirit?
Holy Spirit, bear in me the fruit of faith, hope and love but I have no need of spiritual power or gifts.

We have received the Spirit of power, love and a sound mind. The same Spirit Who works love in us can work through us in power, for the benefit of all our brothers and sisters.

The sum of it is really what was previously quoted:" pursue love...AND desire spiritual gifts..."

Blessings,

Mr Billpro -- "but God has revealed it to us by the Spirit". 1 Cor.2:9, 10
I add that not to contradict, but to testify and affirm who He is and what He does. 😀

I agree Tim, I think what I posted meant, yes, he's reviled some things, just not everything yet. :-)

Hi William,

The church in Corinthians was a "carnal” church (1 Cor. 1:1-3). They lacked love. They were still "men of flesh” and "babes in Christ”.

To this church that lacked love, Paul had to show them the more excellent way of love. To them, he had to say, "Pursue love.”

Without love and being "babes”, they needed gifts. Therefore he said to them, "Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy” (1 Cor. 14:1).

1 Cor. 13:10 - but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

Gifts are "until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ” (Eph. 4:13).

We can only have the fullness of Christ when we have His love in us:

Eph. 3:17-19 -- so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through *****faith*****; and that you, being rooted and grounded in *****love*****, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the *****fullness of God*****.

Christ in us is the hope of glory.

When we have Christ in us, we no longer need His gifts for all that are His are ours too. We are joint-heirs of God with Christ (Rom. 8:17).

Abraham’s servant gave many valuable and precious gifts to Rebekah. But when Rebekah was married to Abraham’s son Isaac and she could freely help herself to everything that Isaac had, does Isaac still need to give her gifts?

Phil. 3:12 - I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

It was only eleven days journey from Horeb by the way of Mount Seir to Kadesh-barnea but the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness for forty years.

1 Cor.1:24 -- Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

John 16:13-15 -- But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. *** He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you***. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

by BranchinVINE
1 Cor. 13:10 - but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

Gifts are "until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ” (Eph. 4:13).

Are you saying, (teachers are) "until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ” (Eph. 4:13).

Are you saying, (evangelists are) "until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ” (Eph. 4:13).

Are you saying, (the building up of the body of Christ is) "until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ” (Eph. 4:13).

Are you saying, (the work of serving is) "until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ” (Eph. 4:13).

Etc, you get my drift, I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to see where you are going with this. Or what gifts are you speaking of, just one or more of the 9 gifts of the Spirits?

Thank you for the clarification,
God bless,
Lisa

Eph 4:11-13 He gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, shepherds and teachers
for the perfecting of the saints,
to the work of serving,
to the building up of the body of Christ
...until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Hi Lisa,

I still do not know many of the mysteries of God. The depths of the riches of the knowledge of God are infinitely vast and deep and I am definitely not even "ankle-deep” in my grasp yet.

But I am committed to learning Christ and pressing on to lay hold of the unsearchable riches of God in Christ. The goal and the prize is: Christ in us, the hope of glory (Col. 1:27).

This is how I see it:

In Christ all the fullness of God dwells (Col. 1:19) and His fullness is to fill us all (Eph. 1:23). In Christ are all the unsearchable riches of God (Eph. 3:8) and we are joint-heirs of God with Him (Rom. 8:17). We can draw all from Christ by faith as a branch draws all its needs and its life and its nature and its power and its riches from the vine (John 15).

Matt. 9:29 (KJV) -- According to your faith be it unto you.
John 11:40 (NASB) -- Jesus said to her, "Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?"

Christians who are still "babes in Christ” lack the knowledge and the faith and love to draw all they need and desire from the unsearchable riches in Christ Himself. So gifts are graciously given and it is good for them to desire the gifts.

But Christians who by faith and love lay hold of the immense riches and mighty power in Christ Himself are on higher ground. The Giver is infinitely greater than His gifts.

A minister who is not drawing all his resources and power from the immense and unlimited resources and mighty power in Christ Himself by faith through the Holy Spirit may be given gifts to do the work God wants to be done.

But a minister who by faith and through the Holy Spirit is laying hold of the immense and unlimited resources and mighty power in Christ Himself is definitely on higher ground.

God Himself is the Builder and we are His co-workers. When the house is completed, the workers’ work is done. God moves in and enjoys His house. And the house in which God lives will surely be filled with all the abundance and holiness and power of God. But till the New Jerusalem comes having the glory of God and brilliance as a stone of crystal-clear jasper (Rev. 21), teachers, evangelists, the building up of the body of Christ and the work of serving go on. BUT we press on to maturity (Heb. 5:12-14, 6:1).

Col. 1:28-29 (NASB) -- We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ. For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.

Gal. 4:19 (ESV) -- my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!

Phil. 3:7-14 -- But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Blessings.

Dear Jade,

I think I understand wher you are coming from, however you seem to be differentiating between Christian maturity and the gifts of the Spirit as if the two do not go together?

How so? When the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples at Pentecost He came bearing gifts. He was given to be " dunamis / dynamite" power within us and upon us to do the kingdom works in Jesus Name, just like Jesus did.

Jesus didn't walk around like a hippy spouting " peace and love" but He " went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him."
He demonstrated both love and power and so should His people.

You said:" I am committed to learning Christ and pressing on to lay hold of the unsearchable riches of God in Christ. The goal and the prize is: Christ in us, the hope of glory (Col. 1:27)."
Christ in us the hope of glory is the Holy Spirit dwelling in us now as surety of the glorious things to follow, which Jesus promised to prepare for His disciples.

I appreciate your heart and your goal which you stated, my sister, but this does not mean we no longer need the gifts in operation in our midst. As long as people are being added to the church and we desire to serve one another with the Holy Spirit's help, His gifts will be an integral part of our ministering.

Blessings,

Hi William,

Responding to your post.

"He was given to be "dunamis / dynamite" power within us and upon us to do the kingdom works in Jesus Name, just like Jesus did.”

THE HOLY SPIRIT

John 16:13-15 -- But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. ***** He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you*****. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

1 Cor.1:24 -- Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Therefore the Holy Spirit takes the power of Christ and gives it to us.

CHRIST’S MINISTRY ON EARTH

Christ’s ministry on earth was not based on gifts. He absolutely depended on and trusted in His Father to work mightily in Him and through Him.

John 17:21 - ……You, Father, are in Me and I in You…..

John 5:19 -- Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.”

John 8:28 -- "… I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.”

John 10:32 -- Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father”

John 12:49 -- For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

"Christ in us the hope of glory is the Holy Spirit dwelling in us now as surety of the glorious things to follow, which Jesus promised to prepare for His disciples.”

CHRIST IN US

John 14:19-20 -- After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

John 15:4, 5 -- Abide in Me, and I in you....I am the vine, you are the branches……

John 17:23 -- I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity

John 17:26 -- and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.

Gal. 2:20 -- I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Col. 3:10-11 -- and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him-- a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

"I appreciate your heart and your goal which you stated, my sister, but this does not mean we no longer need the gifts in operation in our midst. As long as people are being added to the church and we desire to serve one another with the Holy Spirit's help, His gifts will be an integral part of our ministering.”

I am not saying that gifts are no longer given for ministry. I am saying that we can EITHER base our ministry on gifts OR the Lord Jesus HIMSELF can work mightily in us through the Holy Spirit, by faith. He is the Head. We are His body……His hands and feet etc.

The Holy Spirit is GOD, the Holy Spirit. He is our Master to lead us and take charge, NOT our servant to help us.

Blessings.

Sister Jade,

I truly believe you are unnecessarily differentiating between the revelation of Christ within and the gifts of the Spirit. Surely you cannot separate the Spirit from His gifts? I think that is why we seem to be saying different things. I also believe in the complete teaching of the New Testament, not certain parts, and if it seems I am overemphasizing the gifts of the Spirit, it is purely because of the current discussions and the perceived apathy regarding the empowerment of the Spirit, not only to teach us and guide us but also in manifestations of power.We have an anointing from the Holy One and we know all things (teacher) He also comes upon us and anoints us for service, just as Jesus was anointed and set people free, healed the sick, raised the dead etc. Do we all do these things? No, but we can all be empowered at least to do some of them so that corporately we become as the fullness of Jesus Christ in the earth.

Quote Jade:"I am not saying that gifts are no longer given for ministry. I am saying that we can EITHER base our ministry on gifts OR the Lord Jesus HIMSELF can work mightily in us through the Holy Spirit, by faith. He is the Head. We are His body……His hands and feet etc.

The Holy Spirit is GOD, the Holy Spirit. He is our Master to lead us and take charge, NOT our servant to help us."

Questions:
1. The Lord Jesus Himself works in us through the Holy Spirit, by faith: How does He work through us? Does He not manifest in certain ways, demonstrations, administrations, and gifts?
2.Holy Spirit is GOD: Absolutely, most on this forum would not deny this. Jesus was / is GOD but came among us as a servant. Is it so hard to believe the Holy Spirit is also among us as a servant?
In fact, to love is to serve and when we take up the garment of a servant in the fellowship of believers we will find the Holy Spirit works with us in our service.

A couple of scriptures to show that gifts and gifting are included in the church, in ministry, in the Holy Spirit:

1 Thessalonians 5 verse 16 to 22: "16Rejoice always, 17pray continually, 18give
thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will
for you in Christ Jesus.
19Do not put out the Spirit’s fire. 20Do not treat
prophecies with contempt 21but test them all;
hold on to what is good, 22reject whatever is
harmful.”
1 Timothy 1 verse 18 to 19,5:” 18Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command
in keeping with the prophecies once made
about you, so that by recalling them you may
fight the battle well, 19holding on to faith and a
good conscience,”
1 Timothy 4 verse 13,14:” 13Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading
of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.
14Do not neglect your gift, which was given you
through prophecy when the body of elders laid
their hands on you.”
2 Timothy 1 verse 6 and 7:” 6For this reason I remind you to fan into flame
the gift of God, which is in you through the laying
on of my hands. 7For the Spirit God gave us
does not make us timid, but gives us power, love
and self-discipline.”
Romans 12 verses 4 to 8:” 4For just as each of us
has one body with many members, and these
members do not all have the same function, 5so in
Christ we, though many, form one body, and each
member belongs to all the others. 6We have different
gifts, according to the grace given to each of
us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in
accordance with your h faith; 7if it is serving, then
serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8if it is to encourage,
then give encouragement; if it is giving,
then give generously; if it is to lead, i do it diligently;
if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.”

Blessings,

The church in Corinthians was a "carnal” church (1 Cor. 1:1-3). They lacked love. They were still "men of flesh” and "babes in Christ”.

To this church that lacked love, Paul had to show them the more excellent way of love. To them, he had to say, "Pursue love.”

Without love and being "babes”, they needed gifts. Therefore he said to them, "Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy” (1 Cor. 14:1).

1 Cor. 13:10 - but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

Gifts are "until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ” (Eph. 4:13).

We can only have the fullness of Christ when we have His love in us:

Eph. 3:17-19 -- so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through *****faith*****; and that you, being rooted and grounded in *****love*****, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the *****fullness of God*****.

Christ in us is the hope of glory.

When we have Christ in us, we no longer need His gifts for all that are His are ours too. We are joint-heirs of God with Christ (Rom. 8:17).

1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul seems to paint a very different picture. Saints, You are enriched in all knowledge and utterance, You are not coming behind in any gift. I think the picture of Corinth as a church that was totally carnal and very messed up is not a very accurate picture of this body, although it is a picture painted by many teachers.

But, there were some problems in the church that needed to be addressed, as we would expect of a church recently born out of paganism.

The carnality is specified as factiousness brought about by preference of one teacher over another teacher. They were dividing themselves, essentially, into groups that followed different men who had come to Corinth to minister to them. Sounds a little denominational if you ask me. And the carnality was a sign of immaturity. Paul addresses this carnality and this immaturity in the first and third chapter.

The twelfth through fourteenth chapters are not in the context of carnality. It is in the context of proper operation of the gifts of the Spirit. Some things I think we should note here. First, this is the only place in scripture where we are commanded to covet. "Covet earnestly the best gifts". The people were not commanded to grow up so they did not need gifts of the Spirit. Rather they were directly commanded to earnestly yearn to be used in these gifts.

Second, the thirteenth chapter cannot be viewed outside the context of the twelfth and fourteenth. Paul did not break his thought to insert an unrelated text. "Covet earnestly the best gifts, and yet I show unto you a more excellent way." That more excellent way is to understand that the motivation for the gifts is mutual edification, not spiritual showmanship. Paul is getting to the motive of the matter. Why do we desire to be used in the gifts of the Spirit and what motivates the inspiration and the operation of these gifts? It can only be the heart of the Father, God's love in us and through us to minister to another. This is the entire focus of chapter 13. This is why Paul just finished instructing the church that the body must work in unison without one member trying to assert it's function as more critical than another member's function. Chapter 14 then concludes the matter by enumerating nine spiritual gifts and giving some instruction on the proper use of the gifts in the body.

I feel like many teachers have made a huge, extra-biblical leap to suggest that the last few verses of 1 Cor. 13 say that the gifts of the Spirit cease when (you fill in the blank as many different things are surmised) that which is perfect is come. The entire point of Jesus sending the Holy Spirit to baptize believers is so that they may, as we read in John 14, do even greater works than these. Jesus was with us, but now the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead can dwell in us in power and authority. It is really to lift these few verses out of the entire context of what Paul is teaching throughout this portion of his letter and it is to contradict his explicit statement that we are to covet to be used in the gifts of the Spirit.

I believe Eph. 4 does not address spiritual gifts at all. It addresses the function of five specific individuals that God gives to the body to mature the body. These five are charged with ministry primarily to the body, while the body is then charged with ministry outside of itself. They are to bring the body to the stature of full grown men in God.

It has been my experience that God usually uses the most mature in the gifts of the Spirit the most often and the most powerfully. I know there is another thread right now about experience. I have seen honest, powerful, supernatural, and mature operation of the gifts of the Spirit for my whole life. I am not sure there is one gift that I have not seen in operation in someone during my life. I have also been to many places and seen flaky stuff. But the flaky never caused me to reject the real, only to appreciate it more and more.

I do TOTALLY agree that we can only have the fullness of God when His love is perfected in us. In fact, the revelation of His love is the doorway to the fulness of His Spirit and His power in us. But this does not mean we then cease to see the gifts of the Spirit operate. It means that now we have the proper perspective on the gifts and we can be used by God to minister His power to others out of the motivation of His love for others.

Thank you Travis.

Blessings

by Travis
The people were not commanded to grow up so they did not need gifts of the Spirit. Rather they were directly commanded to earnestly yearn to be used in these gifts.

God bless,
Lisa

Hi Travis,

Could you share some thoughts on the mature operation of the gifts, as well as on how to exercise discernment?

Anecdotes would be great!

The difference between maturity and immaturity is often manifested in the motive behind the action. A child might call adults sir and maam and say such things as please and thank you, not because he has great respect for the adults, but rather because his parents might discipline him for not doing so. But a mature man will understand that his actions are a demonstration of respect for another person. The actions are identical. The motive comes from the level of maturity.

I believe this is why Paul speaks so specifically of a more excellent way and then goes on to elaborate on the love of God. We are to covet earnestly the best gifts, but we need to do so from a mature motive if you will. Remember that our revelation of His love in the book of Ephesians is the only way that we can be filled with all His fullness. Think about Paul's admonition in 1 Cor. 14. I would that you all spoke in tongues, yet in the assembly I would rather you say a few words in the known language than thousands of words in tongues. Why? Because we are to seek the edification of the body, not the exercising of gifts through us personally.

I was in a meeting and had invited some friends to come. The man ministering that night came up to me and asked me if the visitors were friends of mine. I said yes and started to talk about them. He stopped me before I could complete even a sentence and told me not to tell him anything about them. He felt the Lord was giving him a word of knowledge about them and he did not want his flesh to intervene. Toward the end of the service he went to them and began to speak to them about their wayward son, and about a medical problem that she had. This word of knowledge opened the door for him to be able to pray for them specifically about these issues. They were edified and received ministry from the Holy Spirit.

I was in a prayer meeting a couple of months ago and a man asked for prayer for his knee. He was facing knee replacement surgery and it was giving him a lot of pain. He works construction, so his knees get a lot of hard use. During the prayer meeting I felt like I should go to him and lay my hand on his knee and pray. No super spiritual prayer. I simply asked God to heal it. He said all pain left the knee. The next day he was rejoicing and praising God that he worked all day with no pain. That has been a couple of months ago and his knee is totally healed. He was edified, the body was edified, and God gave me more confidence in hearing His voice, which edified me as well.

Discernment is twofold I think. On the one hand, we must compare what we see and hear with the written word of God. If what is happening violates the written word, then it is quite obviously not of God. But this alone is not enough. If my understanding of the word is wrong, then I will obviously discern wrongly. So we have the second part of discernment, the voice of God to our own spirit. We must spend time with God and grow in our relationship with Him so that we can learn to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit clearly.

I remember going to a meeting once where I met a woman who was part of the leadership team. (I am not debating women in leadership here. I am just saying that this was the case.) Something in my spirit just did not set well with her, but I passed it off as my own opinion. About five years later, her true colors began to show. She was manipulative and was trying to take control of the work. God gave me two very vivid dreams about her in which He woke me in the middle of the night and spoke very clearly the interpretation. I went to the pastor of the church and told him my dreams and what I was discerning and he angrily passed it off. Sure enough, what God had shown me came to pass and the church broke up and was scattered. I should have discerned this the very first time I met the woman. I know now God was trying to reveal something to me, but for some reason I was not hearing His voice very clearly. It was a real learning experience for me.

I believe we must have the two in operation if we hope to discern correctly and consistently. We must passionately pursue the word of God, but we must also passionately pursue our relationship with God.

I know this bleeds over into many other discussions that have taken place here on SI. But I believe we cannot divorce the written word of God and the spoken word of God through the Holy Spirit. Proper discernment takes both working in unison.

The other thing that is important is that we are good ground as in Matthew 13 and Luke 8. We must be careful that we do not crowd our lives with other things to the point that we begin to be hard hearted toward God. Doing so is a sure fire way to lose our ability to discern correctly.

Yehuan: I wanted to add this. My own experience has been so limited. I see so many other men who walk close to God and bless so many people as God uses them, and it makes me hungry to know God more. I remember the verse in Hebrews that says, "Labor to enter into that rest", and I make some application here. It is hard work sometimes to press into deeper relationship with God. It means denying my own flesh, and I find that hard to do sometimes...well, OK, how about most of the time. If I do not continually and intentionally spend time in His word and in His presence, I find that my hunger for Him subsides a little bit and I find myself less able to hear His voice.

I find it fascinating that people from India like curry so well. I will eat it occasionally, but I really cannot say I like it. I love smoke oysters, but most people around me do not like them at all. We do not eat what we are hungry for. We are hungry for what we habitually eat. I truly believe that if I had curry once a week, I would probably grow to love it. The same is true in our spiritual walk. There is a discipline that will lead to a romance if you will. If a man spends enough time with a woman, they will eventually have feelings for one another. If a man spends enough time with God, that man will fall in love with God in a way that will make Him continually hungry to have a deeper walk with Him and a greater understanding of His word.

So one of the biggest keys to maturity, the proper operation of the gifts of the Spirit, and to discernment is pursuit of relationship.

I have not had time to read all the new posts submitted since I last posted. Will do that when free.

Meanwhile……

Travis,

Coming back to the baptism with the Holy Spirit. A question:

John 14:10 -- Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but ***** the Father abiding in Me does His works *****.

John 14:19-20 -- After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that ***** I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you *****.

John 14:12 -- Truly, truly, I say to you, he who ***** believes in Me *****, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

1 John 4:17 -- .....as He is, so also are we in this world.

Therefore, as it was His Father dwelling in Him who was doing His works in the Lord’s earthly ministry, do you disagree that it is Christ dwelling in us who is doing His works in our ministry by our faith in Him?

Point is: It is not by this experience you had that you call the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Travis, you had a great experience and you are so blessed. But we need to establish truths by scripture, the Word of God.

Blessings.

Jade, I don't want to interrupt Travis from answering your post, which I'm sure he will, but you make some good points here.

That is why I think one of the 'big' errors is separating and using the term 'baptism of the Spirit' as different from 'filled with the Spirit' Careful reading of the bible shows clearly they are interchangeable and one and the same thing.

Therefore all Christians today can either be filled with the Holy Spirit or not and all can receive any of the gifts that God chooses to impart. There are NOT two classes of Christians, those with the Baptism of the Spirit and those without! There definitely are Christians that are filled and those who are not, but as you say the 'spirit filled believers' are not synonymous with those who claim to have 'had the baptism'. All believers can be filled or empty and all can operate in the power of the Spirit or the flesh. This is my understanding of scripture and also my experience of being in fellowship with both doctrinal camps on this issue.
And as has been quoted before "A man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument" Cuts both ways!

Dave: I think you made a good point. We sometimes talk past one another. Can I put it this way.

The entire intent of the sacrifice of Christ was restoration of relationship, reconciliation according to the Bible. This relationship is only possible in the Spirit. Those who worship must worship in spirit and in truth. This is the point of Jesus conversation with Nicodemus. It is your spirit that is born again. His is a spiritual kingdom, not a fleshly kingdom.

The major result of that reconciliation is that the Holy Spirit that was with us in Jesus Christ will now be in us. We may now live a life totally empowered and directed by His Holy Spirit, no by our own flesh.

Jesus died and was raised again from the dead for our justification. His sacrifice atoned for our sin, so that the barrier of sin no longer stood between us and God. Recall that the enmity between us was contained in the law of ordinances. The law revealed our lost condition and condemned us. But that barrier was taken out of the way, nailed to the cross so that we can be righteous, not by our own works, but by the blood of Christ.

But Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit so that we might be endued with power from on high, so that the same Spirit that empowered Christ to do what He did might also indwell us and allow us to walk as Christ walked. Jade, the scriptures you quoted are beautiful because coupled with what Paul said in Philippians we see that Christ served as our example. He emptied Himself of divine ability or privilege and became in all points like me and lived a perfect and overcoming life empowered by the Holy Spirit. He did nothing on His own, but did only what He saw the Father do and what the Father empowered Him to do through the Holy Spirit. When He ascended, He sent that same Holy Spirit of God to baptize us and indue us with power from on high.

So when we are born again we are justified. Our spirit is born again and made alive again to God by the blood of Jesus and through a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. For by one Spirit have we all been baptized into one body. This is the baptism of death and rebirth that Paul talks about in Romans 6. We absolutely have a relationship with God through the Holy Spirit and we commune with Him through the Holy Spirit.

And when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit we are indued with power just as Jesus was when the Spirit descended upon Him at His baptism by John, and just as happened to the disciples and the early Christians as recorded in Acts 2 and in the other three instances in Acts.

Justification is the indwelling presence of the Spirit of God. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the induing of power by the Spirit of God. Both can occur at the same time, and often do. Both can occur in sequence as happened to me. I was born again at 8 and experienced an awesome presence of God. But I was baptized in the Holy Spirit at 18 and experienced a wonderful infilling and induing of power from the Holy Spirit.

Here is my question. Why do we make it so much of a controversy? I have always wondered. Jesus taught about the Holy Spirit and said this.

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

The context, the point of what Jesus is saying, is the Holy Spirit. It seems to me that if I read in scripture that there is something that I can receive from God, I would ask to have it as well. I think God is pretty responsive to a pure and honest heart. I am reminded of an incident with some of the apostles. They had already experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit recorded in Acts 2 but then we read this.

30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness

They were filled, but then they were filled. It shows me that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a one time event that we check off our spiritual bucket list, but a continual filling that allows His supernatural empowerment to flow in, through, and out of us in ministry to accomplish His will. I surely want that.

So, if I ask to receive it, and my request is a little bit off in understanding, I believe God is faithful to know my heart and give me that which I desire, which is a greater measure of His Spirit and power through me to do what He desires me to do.

Amen Travis very good edifying input here.

Travis, I generally agree with you, I understand there is a difference between the empowering of the Holy Spirit for witness and the regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit, but it is one and the same Spirit in us who works in this way.
I will make my point again..to keep using the term 'baptized with the Spirit' in a way that gives the impression that it is something separate from and distinct from 'being filled with the Spirit' is not biblical.

In Acts 1 Jesus said to the disciples " in a few days you will be Baptized with the Holt Spirit". When this occurred in Acts 2 it says: "And they were all FILLED with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." So clearly it is the same thing.

Check through scripture (in particular Acts and the Epistles) and you will see that the empowering of the Spirit nearly always referred to as 'Being filled' or 'receiving the Spirit'.

You ask: "Here is my question. Why do we make it so much of a controversy? I have always wondered. Jesus taught about the Holy Spirit and said this."

Part of the reason for the controversy is that there is this 'teaching' that says the 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' is a experience that someone receives and once they 'have it' they have now got spiritual power and the gifts and until someone receives this 'baptism' they lack the power of the Holy Spirit. My contention (from scripture) is that the Holy Spirit is now (post Pentecost) available to fill (baptize) all Christians on an ongoing basis. We might be filled (baptized) one day and not the next.

Because of this faulty teaching we have multitudes of people who think they 'have the Spirit', because "I received the Baptism in 1982 brother!", who are not filled with the Spirit operating in what they consider the 'gifts of the Spirit', but in reality is just their flesh and soul. This is why most 'tongues' you hear are not the real thing. At best they are just repeating what they heard or remembered from a previous experience.

It would be interesting to know the percentage of folks minds/opinions, that have been changed during these long debates. Maybe we should have a thread and call it, "My Mind/Opinion Was Changed" and have a brief testimony from that person, on how and why their mind/opinion was changed. That would not only be a powerful thread, it would also be a very humbling thread, to help folks understand it's ok to not know everything. Scripture teaches that we can have a true and personal knowledge of God, but this does not mean we will ever understand him exhaustively. The Bible is clear that God is ultimately incomprehensible to us; that is, we can never fully comprehend his whole being. The following passages show this:

Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, and his greatness is unsearchable. (Ps. 145:3)

Behold, these are but the outskirts of his ways, and how small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand? (Job 26:14)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa. 55:8”“9)

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" (Rom. 11:33”“34; cf. Job 42:1”“6; Ps. 139:6, 17”“18; 147:5; Isa. 57:15; 1 Cor. 2:10”“11; 1 Tim. 6:13”“16)

These verses teach that not only is God’s whole being incomprehensible but each of his attributes his greatness, power, thoughts, ways, wisdom, and judgments are well beyond human ability to fathom fully. Not only can we never know everything there is to know about God, we can never know everything there is to know about even one aspect of God’s character or work.

Dave: Agreed! I have known of believers who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, checked it off their list, and never continued to hunger for the power of God in their lives. They had a one time experience and somehow thought that was the goal.

But being indued with power by the Holy Spirit is an ongoing relationship that consists of His presence and power continually being poured in, our continually being filled up, and Him flowing out through us in ministry to build the kingdom and see Christ formed in men.

I make no distinction between being filled with or baptized in the Holy Spirit. One and the same in my opinion. But I do believe there is an initial introduction into this induement of power just as there is an initial introduction into the kingdom, being born again. This is how I think I would describe the way I have experience it. When I am born again, it is not a one time shot. I am born again, but I continue to grow in faith and maturity. I continue to receive revelation of just what Jesus did for me. I continue to allow God to transform my life from that moment on. In that sense, being born again is something that continues for my entire life. The same with being filled with the Spirit or baptized in the Spirit. There is an introduction point and then a continual growth from that point on. I am to continually be in a state of being filled with the Spirit.

Bill: I can honestly say that discussions such as this force me to dig into scripture and question myself. They also edify me and build me up. I know that sometimes men and women get into the flesh and become argumentative and even angry in these discussions. This is very unfortunate and it highlights immaturity in our lives. Hopefully when we see that in ourselves or in others it prompts us to go to our knees and ask God to change us. But I don't believe this means that the discussion is unfruitful.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Thanks Travis for the thoughtful reply.

Further questions:

1. What does it mean to be filled with the Holy Spirit? Is that an experience (to continually receive a tangible touch of God, as some interpret it)?

2. I can relate to what you shared about discernment. My discernment can be very sharp, but there have been instances where I have been wrong though - and that can foment doubt. So how do you know if your discernment is of God? I guess more generally, how do you practically discern the voice of God?

Travis, what a heartfelt response, and you're so right, when I see the flesh enter these threads, it just keeps me from even wanting to join in. What bothers me the most, is the back and forth where it almost becomes an arrogance for one to be right. This has been going on for a long time, and I know most of my posts some don't like, because I bring more of a realistic view, and biblical view, like we will never know it all, or understand it all. Some will duel until it gets ugly, I feel called, to just sometimes be a mediator, to let folks know, it's ok, because not one of us knows it all. Yes, the flesh always will have the desire to win, were the spirit has the desire to love. :-)

Hi. I haven't read the whole thread, but I tried to search through it to avoid only saying things that have been said before. Hopefully I'm successful.

I agree with a lot of what has been said, but I think I have something to add. There is a connection between John 20:22 where Jesus breathes on His disciples, giving them the Holy Spirit, and chapter 2 of Genesis where God breathes into Adam, making him a living being.

We know that the work of Jesus on the cross not only provides for our individual salvation, but also begins the redemption of all of creation (Romans 8). This connection between John 20:22 and Genesis 2:7 indicates to me that THIS is the beginning of the new creation. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." (2 Cor. 5:17)

To me this is the clearest evidence that the apostles were born again at John 20:22. As was said before, the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is an experience above and beyond the reception of the Spirit at salvation (though possibly it could occur all at once). The breath of Jesus in John 20:22 compared to the sound of a mighty rushing wind in Acts 2:2 should make this evident. Also, being filled with the Spirit can and should be repeated (Acts 4:8, 4:31).

I tried to keep this brief; I hope I explained myself well enough. I hope this was helpful to people.

Hmmm. Jeff I have never heard it put quite,that way before. Similar but not quite that way. I will have to study that one a bit. Thanks fir the input.

yuehan: We have a tendency as Americans, and I think as people in general as well, to try to boil things down to a formula. If I complete steps 1-3 then I am now at this level of spiritual maturity, or I am at this level of discernment, or I am at this level of spirituality. Unfortunately it is not so with the things of God.

Being filled with the Spirit (or as some would say baptized in the Holy Spirit) is both receiving and abiding. It is like this. One day I married my wife. There was a ceremony, a new level of intimacy, a celebration, etc.. But that was only the initiation of my marriage. What had welded my wife and I together has been the continual abiding together, the continual emotional and physical intimacy, and the continual learning about one another's thoughts and heart. This abiding in one another has grown that relationship. The same is true with the Holy Spirit. There is an initial filling such as we read of in Acts 2, but then there is a continual abiding that causes us to grow in Him. Be continually in a state of being filled with the Spirit.

The same is true of discernment. In all reality, discernment is primarily hearing the voice of God. Our ability to do this increases as we abide in Him. The more I abide in Him and the less I give myself to other things, the greater will be my ability to hear with my spiritual ears.

So there is no real sequence of steps or practical advice. Die to yourself, abandon the things of this world more and more, learn to abide in Him and in His presence more and more. Let the love relationship that you have with God through Jesus grow. Get to know Him more through continually feasting on His word. Make Him your everything. In doing this, you will find that your spiritual discernment will grow over time. It is a lot like a child growing into a man and a man growing into a mature elder. The change just happens and we can't quite put our finger on it. So it is with spiritual maturity in my opinion.

Bro Travis,

Beautifully stated, as always.

Maybe we should start a separate thread concerning spiritual growth / maturity and delve a little deeper.

Blessings,

We did. I have been blessed as I read it so far.

Travis, my guess is to totally understand any book perfectly, you probably would have to consult the author. So it goes even deeper, since the author of the Bible is not here to consult, we have to consult him through the spirit. Now if you can perfectly understand the spirit every time he speaks to you, well my guess is you can perfectly understand the Bible. I for one, cannot perfectly hear/or understand the spirit ever time he speaks to me, maybe some can here, but my guess is if some can here, they probably would not be wasting to much time here, they would would be out bringing in the lost sheep.

God goes to great effort to seek lost sinners and He greatly rejoices when they come to repentance. If that is what our God is like, then that is what we, as His people, should be like. So, whens the last time any of us regular posters, have brought in any lost sheep? :-)

Bill: If I don't miss my guess, you have the heart of an evangelist. You live, eat, sleep, and breath bringing lost souls to Christ. I have a good friend that is exactly like that. I traveled with him once, and a stop at a convenience store was a very long and drawn out affair because he would invariably find someone who was lost, strike up a conversation, and before you know it he was ministering to them and they were coming to Christ. It was an awesome thing to watch, and it was an anointing on His life.

I am a teacher and I wonder sometimes if there is not a bit of a pastoral calling as well. My heart is to take new believers and teach them the word of God so they can grow up to be mature men and women of God who are able to go out and minister to the lost and other new believers.

We are all called to win the lost. I ministered to a lost man earlier today. He did not come to the Lord yet, but the door has been opened to speak into His life. But the calling on our life sometimes puts an emphasis in us that is stronger than that same emphasis in another believer.

I am in total agreement with you that if all we do is sit around discussing the word of God in our own homes and never seek to win the lost, then we are missing our universal calling and need to get off the couch. But I also believe that there is great benefit in discussing the word and coming to a fuller understanding.

I also agree that none of us have a perfect understanding of the word of God. That is why we must have a heart that is humble enough to consider what others say and seek the Lord and His word to see if that is true. And, if I come to a better understanding of the word through the discussion, then I am better able to minister that understanding correctly to those with whom I come in contact.

Travis, you're just to nice. Yes! I have the gift of gab, just ask Sister Lysa, she will testify to that. :-)

I am not sure whether this thought was already presented here, but it came to me while I was reading Luke 3.

Even in 2nd blessing, Jesus is our example. Did he receive the 2nd blessing? If yes then we should be arrogant to deny the existence of 2nd blessing.

How was Jesus born?

Luke 1:35 - The angel replied, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be born will be called the Son of God.
The Holy Spirit came upon Mary and Jesus was conceived in her womb. Hence Jesus was born of the Spirit from his birth.

How does this apply to us?
When we are born again, we are born of the Holy Spirit. (John 3:6). Hence we are in the same state as Jesus was when he was born in the likeness of our flesh.

Did Jesus being born of the Spirit, receive the Holy Spirit again? Yes he did!

Luke 3:21 - Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while HE WAS PRAYING, heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”

So Jesus after being Born of the SPirit, did not do any ministry for the first 30 years of life. All he did is to please God. But when he was baptized, he was found praying. We do not know what he prayed, but we can guess it based on how God answered the prayer. God answered it by sending the Holy Spirit upon him. Hence Jesus was praying for the Baptism of Holy Spirit, which he received upon him as an answered prayer. He then ventured into his allotted ministry.

Are we not arrogant to not pray for Baptism of Holy Spirit, if Jesus himself prayed for it? Are we not arrogant to venture into a ministry without seeking Baptism of Holy Spirit, when Jesus himself did not do that?

I think it is plain arrogance of Bible knowledge that makes so called believers deny the 2nd blessing.

Oh my, We (some) are now AFTER the time of Pentecost, not before

NOW: It Is Not Scriptural To Pray for the Holy Spirit.

There is not a single line in Scripture, after the coming of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, where anyone is commanded or exhorted to "tarry" or pray for the Holy Spirit.

NOW: It Is Not Scriptural To Seek the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Nowhere in the Word of God is anyone admonished to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not once in their epistles do Paul or Peter or James or John write anything about believers "receiving their baptism," or "having their Pentecost."

by a-servant
There is not a single line in Scripture, after the coming of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, where anyone is commanded or exhorted to "tarry" or pray for the Holy Spirit.

Tarry = remain = wait = abide 'until ye be endued with power from high,' and we know what happened when they did, brother!

by a-servant
Nowhere in the Word of God is anyone admonished to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not once in their epistles do Paul or Peter or James or John write anything about believers "receiving their baptism," or "having their Pentecost."

God bless you, brother,
Lisa

Hi brother,

Would it not be more accurate to say we are still in Pentecost? Yes, the initial Pentecost was when the Holy Spirit was poured out that day, however He is said to be poured out "on all flesh". The promise is:" to you and your children and to all still afar off"

Clearly, all flesh do not have Him, so there are conditions to be fulfilled (repent and believe the gospel etc) and sometimes there is an act of asking and receiving…

And the scripture Lisa quoted:” 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”
If receiving the Holy Spirit was basically automatic at conversion why did Paul lay hands on them?

And no-one can truly explain the initial evidence, at this later stage, that they "spake with tongues and prophesied”….

If all have received why do all not speak with tongues and prophesy?

Blessings,

This has been an excellent discussion, and it is a blessing that we can all remain teachable, seeking out the truth about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, searching through the Word, and allowing the Spirit to teach us.

Travis and William, your posts have been extremely helpful, because it is one thing to have a doctrine about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but it is quite another thing to have the experience. Of course our experience should line up with the teachings in the Word of God, and it appears to me that both of you guys are not only filled with the Holy Spirit, but you operate in the gifts of the Spirit, and you flow in the love of God.

God will never withdraw His gifts, because the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:29).
Ephesians 5:18 implies that we are to be continually filled with the Holy Spirit. This speaks of our relationship and fellowship with Christ. Staying full of the Holy Spirit is dependent on our abiding in Christ. We must stay connected to the Vine and draw on His life in order to bear fruit.

Another good discussion would be to start a topic on how does a Christian bring forth fruit that is pleasing to God.

George:

Nowhere in the Word of God is anyone admonished to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not once in their epistles do Paul or Peter or James or John write anything about believers "receiving their baptism," or "having their Pentecost."

This is a true statement, but the absence of a particular statement in the letters of four men does not mean that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a reality. We do, however, have three instances other than the day of Pentecost in the book of Acts in which believers received a second infilling or baptism of the Holy Spirit. In two of those three instances they spake with tongues and prophesied. In the third we do not know what the manifestation was, but we do know it was significant enough that Simon was willing to pay money for the ability to reproduce what He either saw or heard. We also have an instance of some of the apostles being filled with the Holy Spirit (The place was shaken and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit). So we see that there is a baptism in the Holy Spirit that is different from the baptism into Christ and His death in Romans 6 (the rebirth). It has an initiation, an initial baptism. We see the apostles receiving this in Acts 2. But then it is a continual walk in which the Holy Spirit continually fills us as is evidenced by the occasion I mentioned.

So there is ample evidence for this baptism. After Jesus ascended, the Apostles and over 100 other people gathered in the upper room. They were already believers. They had already, by faith in the sacrifice of Christ, been born again. But there was more for them to receive. There was another baptism that God had prepared for them. A baptism of power, of fire.

I have seen people who received he baptism of the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. I was not one of those. I was born again at 8 and experienced the presence of the Holy Spirit abiding in me. That happens at salvation. But I still needed another baptism if you will, the induement of power from on high. I received that at 18, and I can tell you it was a very real and very life-changing experience.

Brother Mike,

Thank you and maybe it is time to move on to another subject :)

It is just that I feel compelled to give input on such an important subject as this truly can effect our whole Christian walk and service.

Maybe I should end off by saying: " You show me your Spirit Baptism by the fruit alone and I will show mine by both fruit and demonstration of gifts"
:)

Blessings,

William: I like that. If our lives do not show fruit, we have to ask what we have planted? This discussion has truly been a blessing to me. Bless you brothers and sisters.

a-servant wrote

Acts 8.14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria.

15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,

16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

I simply don't understand how this can be explained away....

God bless,
Lisa

Luke 24.49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

= pre Pentecost, the Holy Spirit hasn't arrived yet

I think we did talk about the other one, the time of Pentecost was that time in history to bring different groups of believers into the church:

1. Jewish believers, (Acts 2).
2. Samaritan believers (despised, outcasts, mongrels, part Jew and part Gentile), Acts 8:14-17.
3. Gentile believers (Cornelius and other "Gentile dogs"), Acts 10:45-46.
4. Disciples of John the Baptist, Acts 19:1-6.

After the first representatives of these four distinct groups (Jews, Samaritans, Gentiles, and disciples of John the Baptist) had been incorporated into the body of Christ, there is no record of speaking in tongues when the Holy Spirit came into the hearts of believers.

Samaritan believers:

This account is a bit difficult to understand, given the fact that it says that these people, "were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." This was obviously water baptism, because the whole point was that they still needed to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. But the question is - Why could they be baptized in the name of Jesus, and yet still need to receive the Holy Spirit? Doesn’t this prove that the baptism with the Spirit is a second blessing, wholly distinct from salvation? 

This passage does NOT say these people were, "saved in the name of Jesus." It says that they were BAPTISED in His name ”“ and baptism, even in the name of Jesus, doesn’t birth anyone from above, even today. The fact that the passage never mentions salvation seems significant. The point is, they were NOT born again ”“ under the New Covenant ”“ for they had NOT yet received the new birth from above. They had simply received the Word of God, and had been baptized in the name of Jesus ”“ which was nothing more than John’s baptism.

Yes but it says they were "believers." When in the NT are believers not "born again?"

So....WHY has God given you this experience you call the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" and not to others?

Are some Christians "greater" than others.....?

The Lord Jesus emerged from Jordan into the new day of the Holy Spirit.

It IS FINISHED!

Rom. 6:4 -- Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Rom. 6:5 -- For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection.

As the Lord Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit when He emerged from Jordan, so we too are filled with the Holy Spirit in our union with Him in His resurrection.

1 Corinthians 12:12”“13 -- For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

1 Corinthians is the answer

In addition to my last post about Acts
we do have (4) different accounts:

1. Jewish believers, (Acts 2).
2. Samaritan believers (Acts 8:14-17.)
3. Gentile believers (Acts 10:45-46.)
4. Disciples of John the Baptist, Acts (19:1-6.)

all (4) are accounts that differ from each other, If you pick any
one (1) of them by itself only, and apply that as doctrinal teaching
you basically could create 4 different denominations today
and have "full scriptural backup" by a single verse each,
but in reality you've created a doctrine based on 1 historical
case only, never again repeated anywhere else later in the Bible.

Beginning of church history is unique not to be repeated or to
be taught as doctrine. That is entirely wrong, and leads to error
and consequently lots of misunderstandings of what is actually
said by all the apostles after Pentecost.

What do we really have after Acts? remember Paul in Galatians
Didn't You Receive the Holy Spirit By the Hearing of Faith?

he did not say: didn't you receive Your Baptism of the
Holy Spirit -- his emphasis is on 'hearing' and 'faith',

and so absolutely confirming all related mentions regarding
the all inclusive One baptism in Corinthians and Ephesians .

So how can anyone build a theology on 1 historical verse,
wrongly understood like the Samaritans one [when the final
baptism is in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of
the Holy Ghost - according to Jesus] , backed up with
pre-pentecostal verses that simply do not apply at all?

And then on top of it all Paul says nothing about second
blessings, or any other of the other apostles.

Would second blessing assumptions have any merit or
significance, they absolutely would had to mention it
- or otherwise they all would have taught a 50% gospel only.
They did not.

By David A. DePra - very long article, here tiny excerpt,
title: Is There a "Second Blessing?"

Once you chop up Jesus Christ, or the Spirit of God, into TWO experiences, which must be separately received ”“ you have completely undermined the entire plan of God. And what you get is division, pride, and deception. 

Read the Bible. You will find NOT A SINGLE verse exhorting people to go on to find a second blessing, nor even one verse telling them to be thankful they did receive it. You will not find so much as a suggestion that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is a separate blessing from salvation, or a suggestion that there is such a thing as a Christian who lacks the second blessing. Not a teaching, not a type, and not a parable. Quite remarkable, given the fact that this is a major issue today ”“ one that could have been easily cleared up with one verse. That is because there is no second blessing. The existence of it is purely the invention of religious man. 

Always be aware of what people make into a major issue, but which the Bible is silent about. The Bible didn’t leave out important Truth. Where the Bible is silent, we ought to be silent.

So....WHY has God given you this experience you call the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" and not to others?

Are some Christians "greater" than others.....?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

I don't intend for this to sound the least bit sarcastic. I am being very sincere when I say this. But I guess the simple answer is because I asked.

I am always puzzled that any believer could ever think of himself as "greater" than any other. The reward was reckoned of grace, not of works. In and of myself I have only been deserving of a one way ticket to hell. But praise be to God that His marvelous grace was extended to me and I was saved from what I deserved and given His righteousness in its place.

George: I might say that all of Paul's letters and I am sure most of the general epistles were written during the time period that is described by Luke in the Acts. I say all of Paul's because Luke records Paul's life right up to his final imprisonment and even records the martyrdom of James. So that being the case we cannot, in my opinion, use an argument such as, "We don't find any record of people receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit after the ones recorded in Acts, so that must have just been a one time and special occurrence.

Also, I would ask you, where in scripture do we find that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was only to bring four distinct groups into the church and then the purpose of the gift was finished and God changed the program so to speak? I will be transparent. I am asking this question rhetorically because I think we must be careful that we do not simply accept an opinion that is not supported by scripture.

I think that written history of the church is replete with accounts of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. In fact, the history of the church is still being written as we speak. I would put this account forth as an example.

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."

I can tell you from my own experience that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the one thing that has happened in my walk with God that has resulted in the most power in my life, the most joy, and the greatest spiritual growth. I have seen God radically change so many men and women when they received this gift. I believe that Jesus never intended for one believer to live without being indued with power by the Holy Spirit.

I asked:

"So....WHY has God given you this experience you call the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" and not to others?
Are some Christians "greater" than others.....?”

This is also a serious and genuine question.

There are Christians who have been made to feel that they need to have this experience, have desired it and prayed for it but have not received it and this doctrine of the "second blessing” has become a stumbling block to them.

If you have been given this special spiritual blessing, is it not given to make others rich?

2 Cor. 6:10 ”“ as poor yet making many rich, as having nothing yet possessing all things.

Gen. 12:2 -- I will bless you ……… so that you will be a blessing.

"13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”

Does this not apply to the gift of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Acts 2:38? All the riches of our salvation are received by faith, prayer and thanksgiving.

Add:

I have also heard of people who have had this "second blessing" experience and failed in their Christian life.

1 Corinthians 12:12”“13 -- For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Amen, Bill.

by BranchinVINE
There are Christians who have been made to feel that they need to have this experience, have desired it and prayed for it but have not received it and this doctrine of the "second blessing” has become a stumbling block to them.

The point I’m trying to make is that whether we like it or not, we come off as offensive to some or most in our zeal for sharing the Lord with everyone! I learned that not all of my unsaved friends and family wanted to be saved.

by BranchinVINE
If you have been given this special spiritual blessing, is it not given to make others rich?

I am surrounded by many friends who do not speak in tongues and they love me anyway and I love them! The only place I contend with anyone about speaking in tongues is on SI. I’m sure it’s the same for the rest of us tongue talkers! We read something that provokes us to love and to share our experience and so we do.

God bless you Jade,
Lisa

Jade: Everything we receive from God, we receive by faith. I quoted verse 13 because it specifically deals with the gift of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The context is that we are already children and are asking for a gift that God promises will be given.

I don't know how exactly to begin this story, so I guess I will start at the beginning. I hesitate to tell this in detail, as I don't want to be misunderstood. But I guess this might be a blessing.

I was born again at eight years of age and experienced such a genuine and wonderful sense of sin forgiven and presence of God in my life. But I knew there was something missing that I desired. By age 14 I was praying to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

But all of us have come from somewhere, and I had grown up in a church that had a fairly rigid view of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and what I have come to realize was a fairly legalistic and skewed view of sanctification. As a result, I had somehow become convinced in my mind that I had to reach some level of personal perfection or holiness if you will in order to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I remember being at a summer church camp and praying from about 9 p.m. until 2 a.m. at an altar, seeking God for the gift of the Holy Spirit. I was hungry for sure, and I was determined. These were wonderful times. I spent nearly six hours straight, absolutely lost in the presence of the Lord. The time went by as if it were nothing. But there was a battle going on as well between my mind and my spirit. Due to some error in either what I had been taught or in my understanding, I would be disappointed that I had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

A couple errors here that I think were present. First, I believed I had to be perfect to some arbitrary level before I "qualified" in God's eyes to have such a wonderful gift. Second, I thought that a person absolutely had to speak in tongues or he had not really received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I was trying to figure that out with my analytical mind. I did not understand that tongues are from the spirit, not the mind.

At age 18, I was finally made to understand that I did not have to be perfect in order to receive the empowerment that comes from the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but that I needed that empowerment to help me to live a life holy and pleasing to God. That was a total game changer. That very night I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and, by the way, prayed and sang in tongues for the first time. Since then the Holy Spirit has been a source of strength and power in my life that has been amazing.

Since then I have learned much, and had many misconceptions cleared up in my mind. I understand faith in a greater way now. I understand relationship in a greater way now. I have prayed with many who were wanting to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I have rarely seen anyone who did not receive right away, with the exception of a few who, it seems, had similar legalistic upbringing as I had.

I find it interesting that it seems the religious mind (I use that term in the sense of those who try to please God through their own efforts of religion) that has a legalistic bent seem to be the ones who have the most difficulty walking in faith and simply receiving what God has freely offered to them. But then again, scripture tells us this happens.

I have learned that what God has offered is to simply be received. This is true of the baptism of the Holy Spirit as the scripture I quoted clearly says. It is like this. Suppose I told you that I would give you a dollar any time you wanted it. If you were to ask me for a dollar and you had established relationship with me and knew that I genuinely loved you, you would have every confidence that I would simply reach into my wallet and hand you a dollar. There would be no question. The simple act of asking would, in your mind, be inseparable from the act of holding the dollar in your hand. So I like to picture it this way. Receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a simple as asking for a dollar and receiving it.

Some would ask, do I have to speak in tongues to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I answer no. However, if you are baptized in the Holy Spirit, you can commune with God by praying in tongues, so why would you not want to? But that again is done by faith, as is everything with God.

I would say this as well. Paul tells us that when a man prays in tongues it is his own spirit that prays. Now we know that this is only possible if we are baptized in the Holy Spirit and our own spirit is in communion with the Spirit of God. In other words, we can pray in tongues because He gives us that ability. But if it is our own spirit that prays, this means that we determine when and where that happens. Our own spirit is who we really are right? (Understand that I am NOT talking here about the gift of tongues in the assembly. God determines when and where that happens, not me.) But this is done in faith.

I hesitated to share that experience because some who have not been raised around pentecostal people, or who have had only experiences with pentecostal people who are off in left field, or those who have been taught against these things might misunderstand me. But I thought my own experience might help someone else.

Baptism of Holy Spirit is real, Jesus received it (30 years after he was born of the Spirit), apostles received it ( few weeks after they received the Holy Spirit). Hence it is only arrogance to say it is not applicable to us.

Now I find these arguments against those who deny it, is totally meaningless. How can you prove a blind person the existence of color? A person who is devoid of the power of the Holy Spirit cannot be proved that such a thing exists. Let them continue living blind (powerless christian)!

For a person who has experienced the Baptism of Holy SPirit, even at gunpoint, I cannot deny it. My life changed before and after the baptism of Holy Spirit. How can I deny what the Lord did in my life?

Here is a question that may puzzle some Christians. If Jesus was born by the power of the Holy Spirit, then why did the Holy Spirit have to come upon Him when He was baptized? Are there two kinds of interactions with the Holy Spirit for Christians as well?

It is important that we recognize the need for the baptism (immersion) in the Holy Spirit to live a life of increasing purity. This is the only way that we can increasingly reflect Jesus in His purity. But there is an equally important need for the baptism in the Holy Spirit for our service to God that many do not recognize. The Holy Spirit must give us His supernatural gifts if we are to fulfil our calling as members of the Body of Christ.

Some churches identify spiritual gifts by getting their members to take some sort of Christianized personality test. These tests identify spiritual gifts based on the strengths of various personality types. Now personality tests can help understand human strengths and weaknesses, but this is NOT the power of the Holy Spirit needed for God's work. The supernatural power of the Holy Spirit for God's work is a gift, and is given even in spite of the weaknesses in our personality. So a man who is afraid to boldly speak about Christ can be supernaturally empowered to speak with the authority of the Holy Spirit in a way that produces true repentance in others (Peter in Acts 2).

So as we study God's Word and look at the life of Jesus, we can learn truths about the baptism in the Holy Spirit as it relates to our lives as well as our calling here on earth.

1. Jesus alone baptizes us in the Holy Spirit. And it is confirmed by faith in God's Word.

We are commanded by Jesus to baptize people in water (Matthew 28:19). But Jesus remains the only One who baptizes people in the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11). Even when the apostles laid hands on people to receive the Holy Spirit, it was still Jesus Who did the baptizing.

In the book of Acts and the accounts we read there of the early church, we see that the Holy Spirit did at times fall on people even without anyone laying hands on them (Acts 2:1-4; Acts 10:44-46). But the early apostles also had a definite authority to lay hands on others to impart the Holy Spirit to them (Acts 8:17; Acts 19:6). I see that God used this to validate His authority in His true apostles, and also expose imposters who were greedy and enslaved to sin. We see an example of this in Simon the magician (Acts 8:17-24).

We also see from Acts that the gift of tongues almost always accompanied the receiving of the Holy Spirit. We know that the gift of tongues is the least of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:28). So the gift of tongues was the most basic of gifts of the Holy Spirit, and served as an instant and tangible way that newborn believers could know that their prayers for the Holy Spirit had been answered. But the hope was that this would thereby build up their faith to seek for the greater gifts (1 Cor. 12:31).

So is this still applicable? Do we also receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit by the laying of hands? And does the gift of tongues usually accompany the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

For us today, the Holy Spirit is not received through the laying of hands. I have never heard of anyone in the last many centuries who could lay hands on people such that they would definitely receive the Holy Spirit. I believe that this was the prerogative of the 'God-sent-ones' (apostles) in the early church alone. (Ananias was not an apostle, but he was a sent-one - Acts 9:10-18).

Further, the gift of the Holy Spirit is not confirmed today through the gift of tongues. That gift is most definitely still active and useful in the church today. But, incredible saints of God like John Wesley, D.L. Moody and Charles Finney were clearly filled with the Holy Spirit more than almost any Christian today. They each had Holy Spirit-empowered ministries in their generation. Yet none of them ever spoke in tongues.

One reason why things are different now in both the receiving and the evidence of the Holy Spirit is that we now have the complete written Word of God. The Bible tells us everything that we need to know about the Holy Spirit and life with God. The first century Christians did not have this. So we who have the Bible today can depend (with full confidence) on His Word to have the assurance of the Holy Spirit within us.

We must see that everything in the Christian life hinges on faith in our hearts. And our faith and assurance must ultimately come from the Word of God (Romans 10:17). It must not rest on the evidence of any external sign. There is, in fact, a perverse and wicked instinct within us to seek for signs (See Matt.12:39). And the Word of God acts as a super-sharp sword that penetrates to the deepest parts of us - beyond our soul with its emotions and intellect and into our spirit (Heb. 4:12). As it drives into our innermost being, it seeks to divide between soul and spirit, and show us whether we are baptized in the Holy Spirit (in our spirits), or have been merely excited by some emotional experience (in our souls).

2. The Holy Spirit rested upon Jesus after His baptism and anointed Him with supernatural gifts for His public ministry.

Jesus began His public ministry at the age of 30, after He was baptized in water and the Holy Spirit rested on Him. Jesus had already lived a perfect and sinless life for 30 years - through the power of the Holy Spirit that He had from birth. But the Holy Spirit now "rested upon" Him to equip Him with the gifts He would need for His public ministry of helping others. So it is critical to recognize that the perfect and sinless Son of God was specifically anointed by the Holy Spirit for His public ministry. This was the Father's way, and Jesus submitted to it. Up until then, Jesus was content to remain in subjection to His parents, with no public ministry (Luke 2:51-52).

So it is with all of us who are members of the Body of Christ here on earth. Even when we live by the power of the Holy Spirit in our personal lives, we still need to be anointed with the gifts of the Holy Spirit to be able to serve God and help others. And we need to continually seek to be baptized/filled/be full of the Holy Spirit, so that we can help others as the Spirit-filled Church of Jesus Christ - and not as a social service organization.

3. The baptism/filling with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 enabled the disciples to stand united and be bold witnesses for Christ. It did not give the disciples immediate victory over sin.

There is no evidence that the disciples got instant victory over their sins on the day of Pentecost. What the baptism in the Holy Spirit did give them was AN AUTHORITY AND A UNITY to proclaim the gospel message. We see Paul filled with the Holy Spirit later, standing united with Barnabas and speaking with authority against evil people (Act 13:9-11).

Let me differentiate this from the fullness of the Holy Spirit that we need for our personal walk. For victory over sin in our own lives, we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, consider ourselves dead to sin, not set our minds on the things of the flesh, and be filled with the Holy Spirit to help us put to death our selfish desires. We can each live in victory over sin if we keep listening to the Holy Spirit in our private daily lives.

But to be useful for ministry with other members of Christ's Body in our local church, we need to seek the baptism in the Holy Spirit for blessing others, rather than seeking a blessing for ourselves.

We need supernatural AUTHORITY to proclaim the good news about God in a way that brings repentance and faith in others. For this, we need the Holy Spirit to come upon us, just as the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus when He was baptized in water. The authority of the Holy Spirit is not the same as being bold to preach stirring sermons. And neither is it becoming an extrovert or overcoming stage fright. Rather, the authority we need is to free those bound in sin, and this can only come from the Holy Spirit anointing us and giving us His supernatural gifts with which to minister to and serve others.

We also need supernatural power to be UNITED with other believers and minister as a united expression of the Body of Christ. Only the baptism of the Holy Spirit upon a group of Christians in the local church can enable them to be preserved in unity when the forces of hell seek to attack and divide them. No amount of human resolve or community time together or even listening to the most anointed preaching can do this. Remember what the disciples did when Jesus was arrested? They all deserted Him! And this was after spending 3+ years with the perfect Man Jesus and seeing His miracles and hearing His teaching. But things changed after Pentecost. They became a united group of witnesses for Jesus. "By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (1 Cor.12:13).

So it is for this supernatural authority and unity in the Body that we need to seek to be baptized in the Holy Spirit as believers in every local church.

Finally, let me say that the Person of the Holy Spirit and His ministry are mysteries. Even as we seek the Lord for wisdom and understanding, we must also embrace the mystery about Him.

But we can be sure of one thing: The Holy Spirit is THE ONLY PERSON who can produce the pure life of Jesus in us. And the Holy Spirit is THE ONLY PERSON who can give us the authority and unity to do His work alongside other Christians as fellow members of His Body. No amount of self-denial can produce that in us. And neither can any amount of righteous living or bright human ideas. So let us remain perpetually thirsty for constant immersions in the Holy Spirit so that Jesus Christ is increasingly reflected in our lives.

Amen!

//Here is a question that may puzzle some Christians. If Jesus was born by the power of the Holy Spirit, then why did the Holy Spirit have to come upon Him when He was baptized?//

That's a great point and something that I have never considered before.

This alone should quell any argument regarding the need to be baptized by the HS.

I personally believe that EVERYTHING Jesus did (including every miracle) was NOT done because He was God(he emptied himself) but because he was filled with the HS. In this manner He was a model for us.

If Jesus needed to be filled with the HS, how can we possibly be in a position to argue that we don't need to be?

Travis' and Sree's posts are long and I have a busy day .... will read and respond later.

Todd,

What do you say about this:

Jesus was NOT identified with us when He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was NOT born of Adam. It was only when He entered Jordan that He became "numbered with His transgressors". Jesus' baptism in Jordan was a picture of Him taking our place and of His salvation work for us. It is a picture of the cross and the resurrection. At the cross our old man was crucified. And in Him, in His resurrection, we are born again as a new creation in Him, no longer of flesh and blood as Adam was but of spirit and where we were filled with "flesh" when we were "in Adam" we are now be full of the Holy Spirit IN CHRIST. No one of flesh can be in Christ. And no one in Christ can be without the Holy Spirit.

The HS came onto Jesus when He was baptized. It is as plain as day and that is when his public ministry began.

Comparing us to Jesus, I cannot believe I'm reading this

Jesus is the only son of God. The only reason the Holy Spirit
could come to the church as a whole is that he rose from the
crave, descended to heaven and then the Spirit could come
to all believers - and then the church was born.

All believers in Jesus Christ ARE Holy Spirit baptized as per
1 Corinthians 12:12”“13

as long as you reject that, you are preaching something
other than Paul, and it would be time to read 2 Cor.11:3 again.

What you posted by S. Poonen is very much my understanding and experience.... very well written and for the first time in a long time I can agree with every line I read :)

Thank you for sharing this dear brother!

America can do everything without the Holy Spirit
because some are stuck in a loop by trying to
understand the scriptures by starting with "the gifts",
others want to start with "their experiences" as a
foundation, and yet others want to go back to the time
before the cross.....

So most will not read or understand the following
either, written by a Charismatic, he seems to be
one of the rare ones, that still can see at least
the gross basic errors:

A Different Spirit From The One You Received?
http://www.amen.org.uk/studies/rh/rec-anth.htm

Important chapters:
"Is Today's Practice Non-Biblical or Un-Biblical? "

"Not Every Spirit Sent By God Is Of God"

what reminds me of someone that called all
gross error "Kundalini spirit" what is basically
a technical explanation, but does not tell us
anything about the "others, that act normal"
or what is really going on in the church in
these last days of great confusion.

Comparing us to Jesus, I cannot believe I'm reading this

Jesus is the only son of God. The only reason the Holy Spirit
could come to the church as a whole is that he rose from the
crave, descended to heaven and then the Spirit could come
to all believers - and then the church was born.

Is this your reasoning to deny that 2nd blessing that Jesus received? Jesus is our example in everything.

1 Pet 2:21 - For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps.

Heb 6:20 - where Jesus our forerunner has entered on our behalf.

Jesus is our forerunner means, he ran the race before us, for us to follow him.

If Jesus himself had to receive the 2nd blessing, how is it not applicable to us today?

All believers in Jesus Christ ARE Holy Spirit baptized as per
1 Corinthians 12:12”“13

That is not what the scripture says. The scripture says those who were baptized in the Holy Spirit where all baptized by one Holy Spirit. It is really dangerous when you use one small piece of misinterpreted broken scripture, to deny the experience of Jesus, the Apostles and plenty of many Godly men of past and presence.

Luke 3:22 says the Holy Spirit descend on Him like a Dove. Not IN Him. I think it was God's way to show those who witnessed His water baptism, that God had a personal relationship with Jesus and was pleased in His submission to God's ways.

Luke 3:22....and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Luke 3:22 says the Holy Spirit descend on Him like a Dove. Not IN Him. I think it was God's way to show those who witnessed His water baptism, that God had a personal relationship with Jesus and was pleased in His submission to God's ways.

If you want to be consistent with this definition of Holy Spirit coming upon people including Jesus, then Consider Acts 11:15 -

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning.

So even on Apostles the Spirit only came upon?

Sreeram, wooo backup, I'm not doing anything but posting a scripture, please take that up with God... :-)

You might want to read this:

Scripture teaches that we can have a true and personal knowledge of God, but this does not mean we will ever understand him exhaustively. The Bible is clear that God is ultimately incomprehensible to us; that is, we can never fully comprehend his whole being. The following passages show this:

Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, and his greatness is unsearchable. (Ps. 145:3)

Behold, these are but the outskirts of his ways, and how small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand? (Job 26:14)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa. 55:8”“9)

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" (Rom. 11:33”“34; cf. Job 42:1”“6; Ps. 139:6, 17”“18; 147:5; Isa. 57:15; 1 Cor. 2:10”“11; 1 Tim. 6:13”“16)

These verses teach that not only is God’s whole being incomprehensible but each of his attributes his greatness, power, thoughts, ways, wisdom, and judgments are well beyond human ability to fathom fully. Not only can we never know everything there is to know about God, we can never know everything there is to know about even one aspect of God’s character or work.

After he was baptized, scripture says the HS led him into the wilderness to be tempted. I don't think the HS was sitting on his shoulder like a parrot. Rather, he was imbued with power, like Elijah or Elisha and because of his sinless nature and perfect communion with the Father he was able to do what he did.

If someone thinks Jesus was able to perform miracles by reason of His deity, they are missing the teaching of Phillipians 2

Mr. Bill, please do not take my post personal. I know that in your previous post, you just mentioned what you think would have happened when Jesus was baptized.

I agree that we can never understand God and his ways completely. I do not even believe that my understanding of Bible is perfect. I am always willing to change my understanding. In fact I do not even believe that God's word can be constrained in a theological box. That is why those who try to constrain God's word inside Calvinism and Arminianism, have to ignore or give a twisted explanation of certain scripture. To avoid this, I read the Bible as it is. I accept it when it gives me warnings about me losing my salvation and I also accept it when it gives me eternal security. I do not find these 2 contradicting.

Coming to the topic in hand, the most convicting proof about the 2nd blessing that Jesus received was its timing, which was inline with the experience of the Apostles. Jesus ventured into public ministry only after receiving the 2nd blessing which is the Baptism of Holy Spirit. Same was the case of Apostles, whom Jesus warned not to leave for ministry till the Holy Spirit was poured upon them during Pentecost. It cannot be coincidence. There should a truth behind this, which simply cannot be ignored.

If someone thinks Jesus was able to perform miracles by reason of His deity, they are missing the teaching of Phillipians 2

I wanted to agree with you when you posted on this line previously. My understanding on Jesus and his ministry is exactly similar. We have received everything that Jesus was equipped with during his life on earth. Otherwise He simply cannot be our example and we have a very clear excuse for all our unchirstlikeness! That is why Jesus said we will be able to do greater work than Him.

Only things that Jesus did using his deity which is not applicable to us are accepting worship and forgiving sin. Though Jesus was 100% man on this earth, he was also 100% God. Hence he cannot reject worship and authority to forgive sins.

//Hence he cannot reject worship and authority to forgive sins.//

He may have "sort of" rejected worship when the rich young ruler called him "good" and He asked "why do you call me good?" It's a very subtle point and I may be incorrect about it.

Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Well, even this wicket man knew that the Holy Ghost was given to those baptized only in Jesus name. He must have witnessed something very precious and desirable that he was willing to pay money for. There must have been powerful manifestations accompanying it, more powerful than his witchcraft, otherwise he would not have coveted it.

If this filling with the Spirit was just something plain and
unspectacular, he would have never coveted it.

RE: "Is this your reasoning to deny that 2nd blessing that Jesus received? Jesus is our example in everything. Jesus is our forerunner means, he ran the race before us, for us to follow him."

You confuse the issue as a whole and cannot see
what happened at Pentecost. You also confuse
Jesus with the church. If you think in terms of "foreunner"
that will basically mean you will go to be nailed to a cross,
and then your bretheren can receive your spirit within them?

RE: "All believers in Jesus Christ ARE Holy Spirit baptized as per 1 Corinthians 12:12”“13"

That exactly what the scripture says, Paul has 2 other
verses so there are 3 scriptures confirming each other.
Unisono one line of reasoning, no one can misunderstand that,
unless you bend your mind and read into it with wrong pretext.

You have NO scripture for your assumption. None.

Your last straw is to refer to Jesus and make this case of
comparing him to the church. Our case here is only about
the church:

(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him
should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given;
because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:39

Sree wrote:

"Jesus ventured into public ministry only after receiving the 2nd blessing which is the Baptism of Holy Spirit. Same was the case of Apostles, whom Jesus warned not to leave for ministry till the Holy Spirit was poured upon them during Pentecost. It cannot be coincidence. There should a truth behind this, which simply cannot be ignored."

So.....all those who have not received this "second blessing" are exempted from ministry and the Great Commission? After all they do not have the power......?

//So.....all those who have not received this "second blessing" are exempted from ministry and the Great Commission? After all they do not have the power......?//

This is a red herring. Of course people can minister. The disciples went off two by two and did great things because they were sent and they obeyed. This was before Pentecost. But it can hardly be argued that they were not bolder and more effective after Pentecost.

In regard to those who have not received the baptism of the HS, the first thing necessary is to have faith there is such a thing. A person cannot have faith for something they scoff at.

That was my position for around the first 30 years of my Christian walk.

So.....all those who have not received this "second blessing" are exempted from ministry and the Great commission? After all they do not have the power......?

It is a very good question. The same question can be asked to Jesus as well, in Matt 28-16 Jesus spoke about great commission, but before him being taken up to heaven, he commanded them not to leave Jerusalem. Are these 2 commands contradicting? How can Jesus command them to go all over the world and then after few days tell them not even to leave Jerusalem?

But the apostles did not find those 2 contradicting. Acts 1:4 is just a temporary Hold that Jesus put on Matt 28:16.

How is it applicable in our life? I was born again and baptized in a church, in which they allowed everyone to share after the main message was over. Sometimes I had something to share but I never had the power to share. The desire was there but no power. I kept quiet due to lack of spiritual authority and power to share. But when I received the baptism of holy spirit, the desire to share God's word was coupled with power and gift. Now I lead a Church and share God's word frequently!

God looks at our desire. Every born again believer can share the gospel to his neighbors and witness to them. We are called to be light to the world around us. But to take up a ministry like teaching or traveling evangelism, one has to seek and receive the baptism of Holy Spirit. The God who gives the desire will also equip us. But he does not want us to strive with our human power. That will be unfruitful.

Matthew 3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

It's a declaration of the Father to identify His Son to us
and a practical example of what baptism relates to
It was the typical baptism and Holy Spirit both together

So where is the "second blessing"?

Did you not receive the Holy Spirit when you first
believed and been baptised? Then you haven't
actually been a believer back then, it was some
mental interest of sorts - without faith or reality.

If you think in terms of "foreunner"
that will basically mean you will go to be nailed to a cross,
and then your bretheren can receive your spirit within them?

I posted you 4 scriptures to prove that Jesus is our example and we are commanded to live like him. But you seem to deny all of them with human logic, on top of it you accuse me that I have no scriptural backing! I really appreciate your sense of humor!

Even here your logic is a failure. We are called to follow Jesus and he is our forerunner in every aspect. Even in the aspect of carrying the cross. But the sacrifice of Jesus is good enough for the sins of the world, hence we do not need to die again for the sins of the world. But the cross that Jesus carried is also applicable to us. It is also an example to us.

Phil 2-5 - 5 Have this attitude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, ... 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross.

Hence from Phil 2-5 to 8, it is clear that Jesus is our example for Humility based on how he died on the cross. We are called to have the humility that Jesus displayed by humbling himself on the cross. How is the cross not an example for us?

Further Jesus also commanded us to take up our cross and follow him. Everything that Jesus did in his life is an example for us to follow. For example he does not need to be baptized of water because he was sinless, there is no need for baptism of repentance. Still he took baptism, to be an example for us.

The Church is commanded to imitate Christ, Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ (1 Cor 11:1). Going by your logic even the Apostle Paul is confused with Christ and Church!

Ephesians 5-1:- Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.

Here it proves that the offering and sacrifice of Christ is an example for us to walk in love as he walked.

1 Peter 2:20 - For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;

The sacrifice of Christ here is an example for us to show how to suffer.

I have given 3 clear scriptures to show how the death of Christ on the cross is also an EXAMPLE for us for Love, Humility and Suffering. You may disagree with the scriptures I have posted here because of pride, but do not lie openly saying I have no scriptural references. I hope you know where all liars will end!

You have NO scripture for your assumption. None.

Let me teach you the basics of placing an argument. The 2nd blessing of Holy Spirit, Baptism of Holy spirit is absolutely scriptural. I posted clear scripture on how Jesus himself received the 2nd blessing and How the Apostles received the 2nd blessing. Now to refute all these events in scripture, you need clear scriptural backing to prove that they are not applicable.

The 1 Cor 12:12 that you are posting here, is a misinterpretation. It does not mean what you said it means. It only means that it is same Holy Spirit that baptizes everyone. The point is same Holy Spirit, not same Baptism. It does not mean everyone has already received baptism of Holy Spirit. For example if I say, everyone in France speak French, it does not mean everyone in France can speak. There will be people born mute in France who cannot speak. It only means among those who can speak, the language is French. It is foolish to interpret this as everyone in France can Speak!

Your arguments reminds me how I once had a discussion with a Muslim apologist. He was refuting the death of Jesus on the cross using Bible. He said Jesus did not die because in Hebrews 5:7, it states that his prayers were answered!

Heb 5-7 :-In the days of His flesh, [d]He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him [e]from death, and He [f]was heard because of His piety.

We know that his interpretation of Heb 5-7 is wrong and cannot be used as a basis to deny an event clearly represented in the scripture. Same way your erroneous interpretation of 1 Cor 12:12, cannot be used to refute the example of Jesus, Apostles and that of many Godly men of past and present.

My advice to you will be, believe whatever you want to believe. You have all rights to do it and remain blind to the higher life. But when you deny a higher experience that God has promised to his disciples openly, then you are preventing others from entering this greater experience. You seriously deserve the woe that Jesus spoke of.

Matt 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven [c]from [d]people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Neither you experience the power of Holy Spirit and also prevent others from experiencing it by openly teaching against it. To tie a big milestone and jumping into a well, would be better than spreading such an erroneous teaching.

Like I said before it is absolutely futile to argue on the Baptism of Holy Spirit with one who denies it. It is like explaining a blind that color exists.

RE: " I posted clear scripture on how Jesus himself received the 2nd blessing"

John the Baptist obviously knew who Jesus was
and therefore he should actually get baptised by
him, Jesus said let's do it anyway - the one that
said before Abraham was, I AM - it was for us only
- as an example - not to build a false doctrine
about a "second blessing" - by rationalising
what is written. 2 things you can learn from it:

1) Jesus is the Son authorized by the Father
2) Baptism and Holy Spirit both come together

That "Jesus that needed a baptism in order to be
ready for ministry" is just a man that was not God,
but "became God" - that is another Jesus.

===

I hinted at the following earlier with simple words,
but someone else understood it better than me:

"If having received Him (and this I would equate with having been baptised in Him) I then go and ask THE LORD to give Him to me again, I am declaring that that which I had received was not the Spirit of Truth. By implication it must have been a snake and not a fish! This must be very close to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Perhaps in reality what most people who are receiving this present spirit(s) are saying to THE LORD is "The one you have given me is not satisfying enough, please can I have one more to my liking?"

Todd,

This is NOT a sarcastic question: Can you tell us what you have achieved in your ministry?

Note: I most certainly do not scoff at this experience that is called the "second blessing". It is a real thing. But to me it is not the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Add:

My position is:
Everything that we need for our Christian life and ministry is IN Christ and we can draw all we need from Christ by faith and prayer and through the Holy Spirit indwelling us who is with us forever (John 14:16).

To all who disagree with me:

I think it is pointless to continue with this discussion. We are on different tracks and ……never the twain shall meet!