Are you a liar?

Greetings Brethren, hope all is well. This post is offensive, but all can be backed up by scripture

ARE YOU A LIAR?!

1 John 2:4 KJV
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The Bible says He that saith I know Him and keepeth not His commandments is a liar.

If you claim to be a Christian but don't go to church you're a liar. If you claim to be a Christian but don't pay your tithes you're a liar. If you claim to be a Christian but use profanity you're a liar. If you claim to be a Christian but you put your job in front of God you're a liar. If you claim to be a Christian but are shackin up with somebody you're a liar. If you claim to be a Christian and are bitter and unforgiving to others you're a liar.

If you claim to be a Christian but are living in adultery you are a liar. If you claim to be a Christian and watch ungodly things on tv that you know you shouldn't be watching you are a liar. If you claim to be Christian but listen to ungodly, worldy music, you're a liar. If you claim to be a Christian but still drink alcohol you're a liar. If you claim to be a Christian and still get high, shoot up, or do drugs you're a liar. If you claim to be a Christian but don't love your neighbor as yourself you're a liar.

If you claim to be a Christian but dress like the World and cause others to stumble you're a liar. If you claim to be a Christian and support abortion, homosexuality, or lesbians you're a liar. If you claim to be a Christian but your stealing from others you are a liar. If you claim to be a Christian but don't ever invite people to church you're a liar.

If you claim to be a Christian but reject any part of the Word of God you're a liar. If you claim to be a Christian but believe the commandments aren't for us today, or live by your beliefs and system of right and wrong instead of the Bible, you're a liar. If you claim to be a Christian but hold the opinions of your mom, dad, pastor, anybody in higher authority than the Bible, you are a liar.

If you claim to be a Christian and your old friends/ partying buddies have no problem being around you not only are you a liar but they know your a liar as well. If you claim to be a Christian and have time for hobbies, activities, friends, etc but have no time for prayer or Bible study you are a liar.

The Bible says all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire, and if you claim to be a Christian but your life does not line up with the Word of God that is where you will go. You do not have to die that way. Jesus said I am come that they might have life and have it more abundantly. There is hope in Jesus Christ! Repent of your sins and he will give you power over sin, victory over the enemy and eternal life!

God bless!

Nice.

Expect some 'feedback' from this. And they might not be too pleasant.

Or is that what you wanted?

Yes- whoever wrote that mess of garbage is also a liar. If true, every Christian will burn in the LOF.

According to that I would indeed be guilty...

Man0fGod,

That verse is very true. All of the book of 1st John is true.

That being said, we need to be careful when we draw a line in the sand and say, "Everyone on this side of the line is going to heaven, but everyone on this side is going to hell!" There is DEFINITELY a line, but the line you are drawing runs parallel to the Biblical one, but not directly on top of. We have an advocate in Christ and God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness when we confess our sins.

The person who is a liar is the one whose life is not in Christ--he is a bad tree that bears bad fruit. There is no good fruit, as the scripture says. They are not seeking to submit themselves to Christ, nor will they all Him to rule over them (though every knee WILL bow and every tongue WILL confess). Their God is their belly. They are greedy, hateful, merciless, and selfish. Because of their unregenerate hearts, they only do that which they deem to be good for them. They do not keep the commandments of God because their entire motive for everything they do is wicked.

But the believer--it is not so. When God saved me, He delivered me from a heavy addiction to pornography, a foul mouth, a love for filthy things, meanness to my siblings, and delivered me over to a love for others, a servant attitude, and an insatiable desire to read the Bible. However, I struggled with dipping snuff, perverted thoughts (if I did not walk in the Spirit), etc. I do not continue in all of those things in which I still struggled upon salvation, but day-by-day, the Lord is making me more like Christ and has overcome in me many of those things with which I used to struggle. I am not a liar, although I stumble. I still have growth to do, but as the scriptures says, I am confident that He will complete the work He started in me. If it were already complete, then I'd be resurrected.

I am not a liar, although I stumble. I still have growth to do, but as the scriptures says, I am confident that He will complete the work He started in me.

1 John 3:3 Says that he who has the hope that he will become complete one day (conformed to be like Jesus), will cleanse himself.

As long as we keep cleansing ourself, that is repenting from all unchirstlikeness that we see in ourself every day, we are not liars.

But the moment we stop doing it and live a substandard life. We become a liar and the truth in not in us.

I believe many so called Christians who proclaim that their belief will save them are liars. Almost 99% of professing Christians do not continuously cleanse themselves. Nor is it proclaimed in Christianity anymore.

//But the moment we stop doing it and live a substandard life. We become a liar and the truth in not in us. //

How many days, hours, minutes, seconds? can go by before we are a liar?

It sounds like what Jesus did for us stands on exceedingly shaky ground.

I'm sorry but I don't see one of the apostles of our Lord speaking this way?

Quote:"ARE YOU A LIAR?!

1 John 2:4 KJV
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The Bible says He that saith I know Him and keepeth not His commandments is a liar.

If you claim to be a Christian but don't go to church you're a liar. If you claim to be a Christian but don't pay your tithes you're a liar."

Answer: 1 John 2 verse 22:" who is a liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ"

Jesus said:" a new commandment I give you, that you love one another as I have loved you"
John said:" Now * this is his commandment: ** that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he gave * us the commandment."

Going to church is a commandment? Where do you find that?
Tithing is a commandment in the New Testament, to the spiritual body of Christ? Where do you find that?

Etc etc etc

Of course many of the points in the OT are debatable.

But the more concerning overriding tenor of the post is that putting your faith in Jesus is simply paying the entry fee. Then you have to work your heinie off to keep from getting kicked out of the game.

I am by no means a proponent of hyper grace. A true disciple of Christ will be known by his fruits.

But the OP goes way yonder too far and gives man far too much credit for what Jesus, and only Jesus, did on the cross.

God speaks about his forgiveness in Ezekiel 33 "nor will the wicked behavior of wicked people destroy them if they repent and turn from their sins". John the baptist also taught repentance and forgiveness of sins. Under the new covenant, it was not just the sacrifice of Christ alone that saves us. For grace is only given to the born again. and how are you born again? It is through repentance and water baptism.

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.Galatians 5:1

Thanks for the Feedback everyone. I will reply when I get more time.

1 John 2:3-4 KJV
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Thats Bible. Just remember you're not arguing with anyone except the Word of God.

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:10-24 KJV
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point , he is guilty of all. [11] For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. [12] So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. [13] For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. [14] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, [16] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? [17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Just wondering Elijah...how old you might be. If that is too personal I understand. Could you just say, like, under 30, or under 40,or under 50.

Thanks for posting this. And I'm not lying either!

A text without context is a pretext for a proof text.

Stiritup:

I like the name. You asked is going to church a commandment?

Hebrews 10:25 KJV
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is ; but exhorting one another : and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Jesus was faithful to church. The Apostles were faithful to church. If Christ lives in you, you will go to church. I was glad when they said unto me let us go into the house of the Lord.

You asked is tithing a commandment?

Malachi 3:8-12 KJV
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. [9] Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. [10] Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it . [11] And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts. [12] And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts.

Abraham paid tithes before the law was established. Nowhere did Jesus abolish tithing. Jesus Christ told the Pharisees

Matthew 23:23 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

--------------

You asked when did our Lord or the Apostles speak this way? We read in the first Scripture that the Apostle John spoke this way. Apostle Paul said we use great plainness of speech. He says in

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

James said if you are a friend of the world, then you are an enemy of God.

Jesus said in Matthew 13 everything that offends Him will be gathered by His angels and thrown into the fiery furnace.

Jesus was and still is very narrow minded. He preached if you don't repent you will perish! He preached you must be born again to go to heaven. He preached that He was THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER! He said in John 10:1 that if someone tried to climb up some other way into the sheepfold they were nothing but a thief and a...liar.

Talk about rough preaching!

Bearmaster,

How are you?

Of course he does, do you remember what the people told Jesus?

John 6:60-61 KJV
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this , said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? [61] When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

That is why the Bible says Matthew 7:13-14 KJV
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The truth is offensive, that's how one knows they don't have it. Jesus Christ is offensive bro Bearmaster.

Jesus Christ said think not that I am come to bring peace but a sword.

Peter himself rebuked Christ when The Lord told them He was going to die.

Should we then water it down because we know it will offend people?

Do you think it was considered offensive when Jesus said if you are not born of the Spirit you will not enter into the kingdom of God? Do you think Jesus was concerned about how people viewed him when He went into the temple with a whip, whipped them out and flipped the tables over?

1 Peter 4:17-18 KJV
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? [18] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

//But the moment we stop doing it and live a substandard life. We become a liar and the truth in not in us. //

How many days, hours, minutes, seconds? can go by before we are a liar?

Take a pig, clean it and keep it in middle of the house. It will still run to the gutter and jump and live in it. But a cat when it falls into gutter by accident, it will immediately cleanse itself, by licking off the dirt!

When a person is truly born again, his nature changes from Pig to cat. He does not need to be restrained by chains to prevent him from running to gutter. Nor does a cat need to know how long it is allowed to swim in the gutter before it is rejected. Only Pigs need answers to such questions! That is why the Bible has no answers to such questions because it expects us to be like cats not pigs!

A born again person can live with freedom. Even if he accidentally falls into gutter, he will raise up immediately and cleanse himself with the previous blood of Christ.

It sounds like what Jesus did for us stands on exceedingly shaky ground.

The righteousness that we receive from Christ is called Justification. God looks at us, as if we have not sinned. But this justification is positional. It is based on our position in Christ. As long as we abide in Christ we are completely righteous before God, even if we have plenty of unknown sins.

1 John 2:6- Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

The positional righteousness that we get from Jesus is applicable only when we abide in Jesus which according to 1 John 2:6 is to walk as Jesus walked. The moment we turn from the way of Jesus, we no longer abide in him. The positional righteousness is no longer applicable to him.

JFW, thanks for commenting. Those are great Scriptures.

The publican said God be merciful to me a sinner. That's why Jesus said He was justified, he was repenting and asking for forgivenes!

2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1 John 1:6-7 KJV
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: [7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2:3-6 KJV
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. [6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Sree-
That sounds wonderful but totally ignores reality. Christians are not always in a perfect state of mind so that they will do all things perfectly at the perfect time. Again I am no proponent of hyper grace but I am a proponent of plain old grace, which is pretty amazing. Nor am I a proponent of OSAS but I certainly don't think a person can lose their salvation because they had a bad day. Please.

Havoc and Sree,

Thanks for your input, excellent comments. Wish I had a 'like' button!

Tmk,

How have you been?

What is garbage? What's debateable? The Bible plainly says

1 John 2:4 KJV
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 21:8 KJV
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1 John 5:3-5,18 KJV
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. [4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. [5] Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? [18] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18 KJV
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? [15] And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? [16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them ; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [17] Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing ; and I will receive you, [18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Luke 6:46 KJV
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Thanks for your input. God bless

Please read the entire book of first John very slowly and than read the Book of Galatians very slowly and multiple times

1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us

1 John ch 3 v 23
" And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. "

Proud papa, we all have SinnED.

1 John 1:9 KJV
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1,3-4,6,15-17,28-29 KJV
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. [15] Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. [16] For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. [17] And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. [28] And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. [29] If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:3,6-10 KJV
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. [6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. [7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [10] In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Jesus Christ said man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh, if one doesn't believe The Word of God then one doesn't believe in Christ.

2 John 1:6-7,9 KJV
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. [7] For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. [9] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Great Scriptures you posted, but one scripture doesn't contradict another. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. Thanks for your input.

Elijah,

When was the last time you sinned?

Sorry for the long post guys!

Jesus said that at the judgement, there would be many people who are shocked by their rejection from glory, and they will attempt to use their works as the basis by which they should gain admission. Here are the verses:

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

There are a couple observations I want to make about these guys.

1) Their hearts are revealed in their responses. They truly believed that their works secured their access to heaven. Clearly they lacked faith. They believed more in the works than in Christ.

2). They clearly were surprised. They probably didn't hear rebukes from other believers because they fit in so well. TMK, I agree with lots of what Sree and Man0fGod are saying, but I think you agree with the content and not the delivery. I am fairly certain that a person claiming to be a follower of Christ that is motivated by selfishness only is likely a wolf, especially if it is that way their whole lives.

To strengthen my point, look at these familiar verses:

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
Mat 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
Mat 25:38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
Mat 25:39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
Mat 25:44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
Mat 25:45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I want you to examine this passage carefully. Most people use this to say the true believers had works but the fake ones didn't. If you read the responses, that isn't true. They both had works. The true believers laid down their lives for the least. The unbelievers ministered to important people. Their hearts are revealed. One group looked like Jesus. The other looked like the Pharisees--serving others only when it gained them glory.

To directly answer you, TMK. There is not an amount of time. It is a matter of the heart. A true believer will seek to be pure inwardly and outwardly. An unbeliever focuses on the outward only.

Sree, I would also like to add to your comment that IF a believer does continue to rebel, that God will discipline them, even to death, as seen in 1st Corinthians.

RE : /// Great Scriptures you posted, but one scripture doesn't contradict another. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. Thanks for your input.///

Yes, I agree it did not contradict the Scriptures you posted, it defined what those Scriptures where implying.

Which makes the Writings of John consistent with the writings of Paul.

add : We are not justified by the law

JFW, here ya go

1 John 5:16-18 KJV
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. [17] All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. [18] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

I don't want this discussion to go astray from the OP.

1 John 2:4 KJV
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The Scripture still stands.

Romans 6:1-5,7-16 KJV
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin. [8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: [9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. [10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. [11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. [13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. [14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. [15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. [16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Thanks for your input.

Sree-
That sounds wonderful but totally ignores reality. Christians are not always in a perfect state of mind so that they will do all things perfectly at the perfect time. Again I am no proponent of hyper grace but I am a proponent of plain old grace, which is pretty amazing. Nor am I a proponent of OSAS but I certainly don't think a person can lose their salvation because they had a bad day. Please.

I am definitely not OSAS, I believe it is lie of the devil. A doctrine that has sent many to hell!

The problem is people who proclaim the truth that I do here are considered to be proclaiming spiritual perfection and lacking eternal security. Both are lie. I have more eternal security than anyone who believes in false doctrine like OSAS. One does not need to believe in lies to hold eternal security. Even after holding on to complete Bible (not picking and choosing favourite verses), I can have higher Biblical eternal security.

Also I do not believe that we are already perfect. No we are. Even the Apostle Paul acknowledges that he is not perfect but pressing on to Perfection (christlikeness).

That sounds wonderful but totally ignores reality.

I am not against reality. If we ignore reality then we become hypocrites. Jesus hated and spoke against the sin of hypocrisy. But reality should not be used to trust in God's promises and his word. His word is clear that if we do not repent and cleanse ourself regularly then we are not abiding in Christ. We cannot reduce the scriptural standard based on reality.
Let God alone be true and every man with reality be a liar. Including you and I!

Amen proudpapa.

Havok, Great thought. Its true we will not be judged by our accomplishments, but by our obedience or lack thereof to God.

Matthew 7:21 KJV
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

well put. God bless Bro. DMiller

Sree,

Are you against the abuse of the OSAS doctrine or do you believe that I can be redeemed and then become unredeemed again?

John 14:21  He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them,
he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my
Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt
manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep
my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him,
and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not
my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's
which sent me.

Jesus points to the Father, His words are not His own

John 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,
he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself;
but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will
shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive
of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father
hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine,
and shall shew it unto you.

The Holy Spirit points to Jesus, not Himself. While Jesus
points to the Father.

that's why the current days consent of "there are no more rules
for believers" is synonym with Isaiah 8:20  To the law and to the
testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because
there is no light in them.

That is what 1 John is all about, to not follow any voice that
climbed in any other way into the sheepfold.

Could it be redundant ? No, only for people that misunderstand Paul
it's even in the book of Revelation, "Here are the saints...."
"Blessed are they that......have right to the tree of life"

A-servant, can you expound on what you are saying. I am not sure I am grasping it entirely. Thanks!

Elijah,

That's called evasive verbal behavior.... which is in itself deceptive by nature-

The question is only posed because you seem to be suggesting, not by your words or scriptures being quoted, by the tone of your argument that you don't sin or fall short....
I say that because the fruit of gentleness, meekness, much less humility seems clearly to be missing from your posts- just sayin ~

Also the Word/Sword of the spirit isn't intended to cut down others but to cut away the entanglements/sins that bind them...

I can very much appreciate your zeal and share it wholeheartedly, however zeal without discipline is a dangerous thing....

Elijah,

I just want to make sure that you are not saying that obedience secures salvation. Because that is the very error in Matthew 7. Our obedience is a product of our salvation in Christ.

Consider 1 Corinthians 3. In that chapter we see carnal (immature) believers, people building improperly on the foundation of Christ (poor teaching/doctrine), and yet they are brethren according to that chapter.

I just want to make sure that you are not saying that obedience secures salvation. Because that is the very error in Matthew 7. Our obedience is a product of our salvation in Christ.

I believe you are wrong here. If they were obeying then why did jesus call them workers of inequity?

They were people who were once saved and had gifts to serve God. But they got carried away by their service. Look all that they said were all service by gifts, like casting devil, prophesy etc. Jesus never denied what they did. No one can come before Jesus to tell lies. Hence what they said is true. But what they ignored is personal walk with God. They were like Pharasees who focused on external testimony but we're dead inside. White washed tombs. Hence Jesus rejected them.

This is in accordance with what Jesus said in the same context, 'you will know a tree by fruit not by gift'. It is all to be seen in same context. If we remove the context then we get into erroneous interpretations like this!

Are you against the abuse of the OSAS doctrine or do you believe that I can be redeemed and then become unredeemed again?

I do not believe that man cannot lose his salvation. Man can lose it. One has to edure till the end to be saved. These are the words of Jesus.

Hebrews 3-6: Christ was faithful as a Son over His house””whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Salvation is not to be saved from hell. There is no scripture that says this. Salvation is to be saved from sin. This salvation is a continuous process. One has to continue in the process to remain eternally secured.

This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.ӢӢӢ

The 2 things to see here are belief in Jesus and love one another. It is not just one time belief. How can some one who lusts with his eyes when Jesus commanded us not to lust with eyes, believes in Jesus? He is an unbeliever no matter which doctrine he claims to believe. To believe someone, we should believe every word they said.

Now regarding love, how can someone who watches pronography loves the neighbor whoes daughter or wife is shown nude there? What kind of cheap love is it? What is wrong to call this so called believe a liar?

havok20x,

1 John, the whole book is a reality check of the Christian life,
whether our faith is based on the Jesus of the Bible, or a
another Jesus.

That reality check, if we really know Him, or know someone else
got kicked out as invalid by people that confuse Paul on the isssue
of Justification vs. Sanctification.

This has been talked about here for years, so it's not something
new, the commandments - as repeated by Paul at several places
of his teachings, don't earn anyone any favors or salvation, but
without them sanctification or walk in the Holy Spirit is a mere
lip service and not reality.

That's where the holiness movement messed up, they wanted
instant and total sanctification through a second blessing,
instead of going the Christian gospel way of the doctrine
of the apostles. The strange fire of the early church was
gnosticism, read a book or articles about what that is,
it helps to understand the whole issue.

I think most people on here would agree with the premise that if someone is living in habitual, unrepentant and willful sin and claims to be a Christian they are in fact (as John says) a liar and do not have eternal life. That is unless they are of the extreme grace / OSAS position.

However the OP issue that has caused such a reaction is that MoG has defined what is sin by his own convictions and/or church traditions. So can anyone here (apart from MoG) agree with the following from his OP......

You are not a Christian are will are destined for the lake of fire if you..
(a) Don't pay Tithes
(b) Don't 'go to Church' (whatever that means! We are the church, don't 'go there).
(c) Don't invite people to church?!
(d) Drink alcohol (any amount)

Even if your personal convection is in line with the above, I don't know any sound Christians that would accuse others that do the above as destined for hell.

These are just the extreme examples from the OP. The list sounds like something that comes from a manipulative church leadership that wants to control it's people in a cultic way.

Sree,

I have come to the conclusion regarding MOST debates about OSAS that the men and women who believe you can lose your salvation would identify people as having lost it when I would identify those people as never having had it in the first place.

We can discuss the symptoms of our beliefs ad nauseum. The root issue is the atonement. Jesus is our propitiation. The definition is thus: "The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement or satisfaction, specifically toward God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to him."

Here is a quote you said:

"I believe you are wrong here. If they were obeying then why did jesus call them workers of inequity?"

They were workers of iniquity because they did evil in the sight of the Lord. They were bad trees with bad fruit. They looked good on the outside, but inside they were dead men's bones. Whitewashed tombs. Bad fruit doesn't necessarily mean rotten. A bad tree carrying bad fruit does indeed grow fruit, but it is unrighteous.

Right on Dave.

Yes indeed and Lord have mercy on him!

Sree says,

"I believe you are wrong here. If they were obeying then why did jesus call them workers of inequity?

They were people who were once saved and had gifts to serve God. But they got carried away by their service. Look all that they said were all service by gifts, like casting devil, prophesy etc. Jesus never denied what they did. No one can come before Jesus to tell lies. Hence what they said is true. But what they ignored is personal walk with God. They were like Pharasees who focused on external testimony but we're dead inside. White washed tombs. Hence Jesus rejected them."

Jesus says,

Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

Jesus didn't say the words that Sree is putting/adding to the words Jesus said. He plainly says, "I NEVER knew you..."

Jesus didn't say the words that Sree is putting/adding to the words Jesus said. He plainly says, "I NEVER knew you..."

What word did you find me add? Can you please clarify? !!!

What do you think Jesus meant by saying 'I never knew you'? If it is plain not knowing them, then how can Jesus be God if he does not know who his creations are? So the word know here means more than just to identify someone.

Those have to be born again believers who have lacked a fellowship with Jesus. Hence they were rejected. Any other alternate identification of them will actually diminish the divine authority of Jesus. For example if they were mockers who were simply lying then it makes Jesus (during his 2nd coming) a mock-able person before whom anyone can give a false testimony. That is why I reject all those popular teachings on these verses. People just choose the interpretation that fits their theology even if it makes Jesus a powerless guy! Shame on those who hold such views. They love their theology more than Jesus, that is why they are willing to strip him of his powers, to defend their theology.

Hey dave, thanks for commenting.

The Bible agrees with what was listed, as that can all be found in scripture.

A(malachi 3, 1 cor 6:9-10)

B (hebrews 10:25, acts 3:1, acts 16:4-5, 20:7)

C (Luke 14:21-23)

D (1 cor 6:9-10, 1 cor 5:6-11, Mark 15:23)

Do you drink? Since you said any amount. How much before it's considered wrong? Is it okay to tell one lie, kill one person, cheat on my wife one time?

Also. The bible says faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. Jesus said man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word of God.

Please post Scripture with your position.

Thanks for commenting. God bless.

//What do you think Jesus meant by saying 'I never knew you'? If it is plain not knowing them, then how can Jesus be God if he does not know who his creations are? //

Sree- you obviously know that the word "know" can have more than one meaning, right? Adam knew Eve his wife. You bet he did, in more ways than one.

In those verses at issue, Jesus obviously means he never knew them AS BELONGING TO HIM. He may know them as individuals but not as part of his flock.

Elijah (great name BTW),

If you think any of those scriptures are condemning the things I highlighted as sin, you are misreading the scriptures and reading them in a legalistic way.

If you personally believe God has told you to adhere to them, then for you it would be sin to disobey, but the scriptures do not say this.

I will pick just one example, Tithing. Malachi 3 is OT and addressed to the Levites. The 1 corinthian 6 passage is not teaching tithing, but a collection for the saints in need in Jerusalem. There is no tithing teaching in the NT at all. I know folk who do believe in the principle of tithing, but would never say it is an issue of sin and eternal damnation! BTW if you want to keep the OT law of tithing you need to give at least 30% of your wages.

Sree, You missed the point that Savanah was making.

"Jesus didn't say the words that Sree is putting/adding to the words Jesus said. He plainly says, "I NEVER knew you..."

The point is 'NEVER',They were NEVER His.

Sree,

Can I ask you a question. Who is completing salvation in you? Is it you or is it the Lord?

Hey dave,

Thanks, I appreciate that. Dave is pretty cool as well.

What don't the Scriptures say? Please re-read the verses in Malachi 3. God plainly called them robbers because they were not paying tithes. He even said they had brought a curse upon their nation. Robbers don't go to heaven, the Scripture from 1 cor 6 was to illustrate that.

Where was tithing abolished? Where does it say it is only to the levites? Did not Abraham pay tithes before the law was established? Did Jesus do away with tithing?

If those verses do not apply to us because they Are OT, do verses like Isaiah 40:31, 54:17 not apply to us as well? Does lev 18:22 no longer apply? Where the bible says when the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord would raise up a standard against him, is not available for Is today?

In Malachi where He said

Malachi 3:11,16 KJV
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts. [16] Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it , and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord , and that thought upon his name.

Does the book of remembrance only for the levites as well?

Dave, I am not trying to be critical, but Where do we draw the line?

Also, no disrepect intended, but I noticed once again while explaining the Scripture, you posted no Scripture.

The Bible says the just shall live by faith. How do we get faith? Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God.

Thanks so much for your input.

Sree, havok, heydave, tmk, and everyone else that has commented,

Thank you all for your time and input. I appreciate it. I made another thread, if you haven't seen it yet, I ask you to head on over( it's in the Scriptures and doctrine section) and check it out. Your input is valuable, thanks again. God bless.

"Jesus didn't say the words that Sree is putting/adding to the words Jesus said. He plainly says, "I NEVER knew you..."

The point is 'NEVER',They were NEVER His.

Sorry sir, you are wrong here. The point is not NEVER. The point is 'KNOW' as I have shown to Savanah. You are interpreting 'know' as 'his'. Anyone can interpret 'know' as anything. For example someone can say 'I never KNEW you' means 'I never created you', this is because Jesus being God should know all his creations! Now even this interpretation is logical. But fails with rest of the passages. It is not in line with the complete incidence.

Same way your interpretation of 'not his' also fails to match with rest of the passages said about them. We cannot write a theology by removing a word out of context. It has to fit with the context.

1. The context here is clear based on verse 20, Jesus here is talking about those who lack the fruits but have amazing gifts and did mighty things. He is teaching us not to be carried away with gifts. If he is talking about unbelievers who were never born again from verse 21 then it does not fit into the context of verse 20. HENCE FAILED.

2. They called Jesus LORD. Let us see what the scripture says about those who call Jesus Lord -

1 Cor 12-3:-Therefore I inform you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord,” EXCEPT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Hence they should have received the Holy Spirit. Which proves that they are born again at some stage.

3. They did mighty things which are inline with Gifts of the Spirit, done in JESUS NAME. If they never did them but just mocked those gifts then why did Jesus did not deny what they said about mighty works? If they did using some other source of power, then why did they say they did in JESUS NAME? How can Jesus be mocked when He comes for the 2nd time with Power? So they are not mockers as conventionally believed by OSAS group! Hence failed.

Can anyone here who believes that they were never saved, give me a satisfactory answer to all the 3 points? I am not willing to believe in any interpretation of the word 'I never knew you', that misses the context and other scriptures. I am sorry I am not a one who gives up the scriptures to satisfy my theology!

Here is my explanation of 'I never Knew you', which will be inline with rest of the scripture. Like TMK pointed out, Knew is the same as 'Adam Knew Eve'. It is that intimate relationship that Adam had with Eve to give her a child. Jesus is saying you and I never had that intimate relationship. Not everyone who calls himself a Christian, who claims to believe in Jesus have this intimate walk with Jesus. A walk in which one is willing to consider everything as loss compared to know him (Phil 3:8). It is that kind of walk that they were missing. But they received the gifts and calling which are irrevocable even though they never had an intimate walk with Jesus.

Sree, when 'logic' is the master the reasoning has to fail
eventually. If you stumble over one word "Never" and
reinterpret it you force yourself into error along the way.

Better way is to believe what is written, exactly as it says,
and THEN start reasoning why that can be so, as it is said.

Faith first, reason is the servant, not the master

One possibility of false logic:

"3. They did mighty things which are inline with Gifts of the Spirit, done in JESUS NAME. If they never did them but just mocked those gifts then why did Jesus did not deny what they said about mighty works? If they did using some other source of power, then why did they say they did in JESUS NAME?"

Jesus does the mighty things in Jesus Name. Not the gifts.
Gifts are not there to apply them according to human will,
we are only servants, not the initiater of God's will,
nor vessels of power - That would be "christian magic".

Faith first, reason is the servant, not the master

I believe the faith here is on the theology OSAS rather than God's word. Faith is to believe everything that God said is true irrespective of whether it suits OSAS theory or not. I think this fundamental faith is lacking here. In this case your interpretation is totally against the context and interest of the word of God. If your interpretation is against the context and intention of God's word, then it is a plain lie spread to suit OSAS theory!

Jesus does the mighty things in Jesus Name. Not the gifts.
Gifts are not there to apply them according to human will,
we are only servants, not the initiater of God's will,
nor vessels of power - That would be "christian magic".

I agree, this is God's intention to use the Gift. But that does not mean God will physically restrict man from using his Gift for personal gains. No it is not true.

Paul clearly agrees that he could use his gifts to please men. It is a battle of everyone who has gifts, they can use it to please men or please God. As a person who is considered as a gifted speaker of God's word, I can testify to it. Also we have witnessed so many men of God who started with a very gifted ministry and later fell to money and fame. Their gift is still operational, but not in a way to please God.

Gal 1:10-Am I now seeking the approval of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

I'm strongly againts OSAS teaching,
and you are reasonging against what Jesus said,
I'm not sure where you want to go with this.

one thing I forgot to tell you, I read the first post
you posted after you told the forum about your
"new blessing" a few weeks ago. Only savannah
replied to your "new insight" that basically tried
to corrrect the Bible on a very wellknown scripture,
you argued on having received "the true meaning"
of it, which was contrary to what the Bible actually
says in plain words. It's not coincidence, did you
ever reflect on that? Did you even notice?

you are reasonging against what Jesus said,
I'm not sure where you want to go with this.

What ever I have said here is backed up with scripture and context of Matt 7:21. We both are arguing against different interpretations of what Jesus said. My interpretation is backed by scripture and context. If anyone else disagrees with me then they have to answer the 3 points I have posted here to backup my interpretation. I do not see anyone having any valid reasoning here against those 3 points, which proves how unscriptural their interpretation is. Otherwise it is plain pride that prevents them from accepting the truth that I have posted here.
Let God alone be true and every man be liar here.

2 .no one can say, "Jesus is Lord,” EXCEPT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

right, but what does that mean? Of course everyone can
verbally say that. Do they then all have the Holy Spirit?

But not everyone accepts His authority in all things.
What does it mean to have a Lord above oneself?
Listen to him, and obey him. Verbatim. He is always right.

He is the Lord, we are not little lords that correct his words.

Neither do we move the Holy Spirit to act on
our command. We get moved to act by Him:

For example gift of prophecy

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the
Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:21

What is the accuracy of "current days prophets"?
such a low percentage that they had to change the
meaning of the word 'prophecy' to accommodate
our actual current day reality.

Even one of the "best of them" like D. Wilkerson has
so many failed prophecies to his name it is troubling
to admit for some.

What is the accuracy of "current days prophets"?
such a low percentage that they had to change the
meaning of the word 'prophecy' to accommodate
our actual current day reality.

Even one of the "best of them" like D. Wilkerson has
so many failed prophecies to his name it is troubling
to admit for some.

No body has changed the meaning of prophesy. You seem to be ignorant of New Covenant prophesy. Old Covenant Prophesy was given to warn Israel of the attack of enemies. Take the example of the ministry of Elisha.
2 Kings 8 & 9 :-And the man of God sent word to the king of Israel saying, "Beware that you do not pass this place, for the Arameans are coming down there.”

Now the ministry of God's prophets in New Covenant is to warn the Church of the spiritual attack of enemies. This kind of prophesy will only edify and build the church as stated in 1 Corinthians. How will CHurch be build by someone predicting some war? Because many do not see the beauty of Church, they do not see the purpose of this great ministry. For such people predicting the future is great thing, but seeing Church being edified is not important. That is why such worthless arguments are placed saying people are changing the meaning of Prophesy!

Think about it - 1 Cor 14-24:- But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an [l]ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

How do you think the secrets of one's heart will be disclosed if the entire Church was predicting the future? But if they were prophesying about spiritual warnings then the newcommer's secret of heart will be disclosed.

If we learn to value the CHurch then the real Prophesy will be of great value compared to Old Covenant Prophesy. There is no wonder that those who still do old Covenant Prophesy have failed miserably, including David Wilkerson, who was a man of God.

So many times, people have asked me how I know exactly what spiritual need they have when I shared the word in the Church. I only give the credit to God. It cannot be done by human intelligence. Once even a new comer came to me and expressed the same.

right, but what does that mean? Of course everyone can
verbally say that. Do they then all have the Holy Spirit?

They were people who accepted Jesus as Lord through the Power of Holy Spirit but never actually lived a life worth of yielding completely to Jesus. Most of the born again Christians who accept Jesus as Lord, do not start immediately to yield everything in their life to Jesus. It is a progressive sanctification. Self or money will still be in throne. It was same for me as well. Though I was born again by the Power of Holy Spirit, it was not that I immediately lived a life with Jesus being the Lord of my entire life. But I coming from Hindu background could not have forsaken those Hindu Idols without the Holy Spirit. But forsaking the inner idols took time and was progressive work of the Holy Spirit.

If they never accepted Jesus as their Lord and savior, then they were mocking Jesus by calling him Lord. This makes Jesus a mockable figure! Either way this interpretation of yours is erroneous. Like I said, no other interpretation fits the entire context of Matthew 7:21.

Jesus Christ and His Apostles preached against OSAS

James 5:19-20 KJVS
BRETHREN, if any of YOU do ERR from the TRUTH, and one CONVERT HIM[20] Let him know, that he which CONVERTETH THE SINNER from the error of his way shall SAVE A SOUL FROM DEATH and shall hide a multitude of sins.

"Is James talking about backsliding believers, or is he talking about evangelizing those who do not know Christ?” The first part of verse 19 would indicate that James is talking about believers ("My brethren, if any among you strays…”). But when verse 20 talks about saving his soul from death, it sounds like saving a soul from hell.

Some assume that James is talking only about believers. Since believers cannot lose their salvation, they interpret verse 20 as saving the person from physical death as God’s discipline for sin. The other approach, which I believe to be correct, is to say that James is writing to the church, but he knows that there are some in the church that have made professions of faith, but they are not genuinely saved. This fits with the overall theme of James, which is to emphasize that true saving faith is not just to make a decision or to say, "I believe in Jesus.” True saving faith always, necessarily results in a life of good works.

Thanks Elijah, I never saw James 5:19 and 20 as an argument against OSAS. It appears that it is very clear here.

Some assume that James is talking only about believers. Since believers cannot lose their salvation, they interpret verse 20 as saving the person from physical death as God’s discipline for sin.

This is the classic example of interpreting the scripture though one's theology rather then allowing God's word to dictate theology!

but they are not genuinely saved.

Why were they not genuinely saved? Was it their mistakes or God decided not to save them?
Why is James calling them Brethren if they were still unsaved and living in Sin? I believe to call someone brother means they are actually fellow brothers of Jesus, born again in God's family.

Brothers and Sisters,

This has gotten out of hand. In what way are we seeking to edify one another? Is anyone in this thread willing to listen or are they just jumping to their already "perfect" understanding of the scriptures?

This is ridiculous. If a worldly person came in here, they would not be able to identify us as disciples of Jesus because we are not showing much (if any) love for one another.

Check your hearts. If you are going to enter into this discussion, then it needs to be in another form that isn't point-counterpoint. No one here is going to change their beliefs today using that methodology.

If we can all agree that we are going to listen to one another, seek the Lord, and allow him to lead us in this discussion, then it will be fruitful. If none of you are willing to do so, then this is pointless.

Yea I think we got a bit sidetracked here and now one
error leads to the next error. It really doesn't help to
address more than 1 point in a post, it's just too complicated
for anyone to follow 3 leads at the same time.

What was this here originally all about?

Ah yes, "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him,
and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the
Spirit which he hath given us". 1 John 3:24

This has gotten out of hand. In what way are we seeking to edify one another? Is anyone in this thread willing to listen or are they just jumping to their already "perfect" understanding of the scriptures?

I am blessed by this thread. I have also acknowledged in my previous post how the scripture posted by Elijah was something I have not seen before in that light.

I am also blessed by the discussion I have had with A-servant on Matthew 7-21. I really appreciate his efforts to address the 3 points I have posted here. I may not agree with his views but it will help me to understand the alternate line of thinking. What really annoys me is those who hold a view and does not care to defend it even when proved unscriptural. There is nothing wrong in defending one's understanding, Jesus himself did that. It is in fact Pharisees who said, I do not know and walked away without defending their understanding. Neither did they acknowledge the wisdom in the argument presented by Jesus. I see many Pharisees here!

If we can all agree that we are going to listen to one another, seek the Lord, and allow him to lead us in this discussion, then it will be fruitful. If none of you are willing to do so, then this is pointless.

When was the last time you did it? I can testify to that so many times. I can honestly say before God that I have come here with teachable spirit. If anyone can prove any of my point is wrong based on scripture then I am willing to change. But I have rarely witnessed a teachable spirit here.

Just so everyone knows, so that I am not appearing to be devious or deceptive. I am emailing a response to Sree. If Sree wants to post it regarding this, then that's fine, but I am trying to not spark and uproar over this. Thanks!

As I was reading down this list of liars I recognized something from my past. What I recognized was my own zealousness to completely overstate my case. In this case, I believe the O.P in his zealousness overstated the case to the point of error and damaging exaggeration. Every failure to meet the demands of the law or the commands to live a life of imitation of Christ is handled rather poorly and condemns all of us as if we are bastards and not sons. All my sins, though they are many and repeated do not and cannot be the determiner of my sonship. For as soon as I make my performance to the law or the commands of the new covenant as the litmus test for sonship there would be no sons of God, and the O.P would not be absent from the punishment of his own judgment.
We are all exhorted to live a life of holiness and no godly person here would deny that, but this post goes beyond scripture in its result, ( though I do not question the intent was sincere and godly). The result was condemning those whom God has justified by faith, not by performance. To adhere to this O.P use of "liar" would in effect denounce the whole body of Christ including himself and relegate the work of God being done in all of us as a patent failure.
Zeal and desire for truth, willingness to obey and speak it regardless of how others might like it or not is the mark of a man of God. But there are other marks of godly maturity, one of them being that the word of God is also used as a scalpel and not just as a bludgeoning sword in every occasion. Here I see zeal without the wisdom to articulate it.
Someone might disagree with my opinion and no doubt there will be some but what is very apparent is when the word is misapplied, it generates strife and division amongst those who are truly seeking God and know the chastening of God, that those he loves he rebukes and chastens. The key to growth in holiness is the knowledge that God loves me, that I am his son and my failures are not the sum and substance of my life. I am not a liar and false because I failed my brother's personalized litmus test for Christianity.

Thanks, Caleb glad to meet you too.