What is the Baptism of Fire

"Repeat in your heart often, "baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire, fire, fire!" All the unction, and weeping, and travailing comes through the baptism of fire, and I say to you and say to myself, purged and cleansed and filled, with renewed spiritual power." -- Smith Wigglesworth

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"Twice we have found the double expression used, "He shall baptize
you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire." Three times we have seen the
last expression omitted. Why this difference? John is addressing a
promiscuous company in both Matthew and Luke. Some are repentant,
waiting for Messiah; others are proud, haughty, hypocrites, and
unbelievers, Some are humbly baptized in water, as signifying the
death their sins deserve. Others evade the baptism, or would undergo
it while unrepentant. John says in effect: Whether you are baptized by
me or not, you shall all be baptized by the coming mighty One, either
by the Holy Spirit, or in fire! He will make a separation between the
true and the false. Every corrupt tree will come down and be hurled
into the fire - baptized in the fire of judgment.

The wheat will be gathered into the garner: they will be the Spirit-
baptized ones. The chaff will be cast into the fire: this will be their
baptism of wrath.

In the accounts given by Mark, John, and in the Acts, there are no
unbelievers introduced. Both John and Jesus are speaking only to
disciples. To them they say nothing of the baptism of fire. There is
no judgment - no wrath to come - for them to fear. They receive the
promise of the baptism of the Spirit only, and this was fulfilled at
Pentecost." -- Harry A. Ironside

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"John who is preparing the people to receive the Messiah is juxtaposing believers with unbelievers. John says that Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Spirit (believers) and fire (non- believers). It does NOT mean the Holy Spirit and fire or the Holy Spirit that is the fire. John explains what is meant as he continues, saying that Jesus will gather His wheat into the barn BUT burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire, (which Jesus later describes as a fire that is never quenched Mk.9:43-). So the Bible does teach of a baptism of fire, only it is for unbelievers." -- LetUsReason Ministries

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"Jesus did not include the words baptized "with fire" when he was speaking to his disciples. That is because the baptism with fire that John the Baptist mentioned (in Matt 3:11 and Luke 3:16) ONLY pertains to the unsaved. Jesus will baptize the UNSAVED with fire.

John the Baptist was speaking BOTH to believers and to unbelievers in the crowds that followed him when he said that Jesus would baptize them with the Holy Ghost and with fire. (Holy Ghost for believers, and fire for unbelievers)

Pentecostals should take note of this when calling for the Lord to send Fire upon them and when following evangelists who scream FIRE, FIRE, FIRE upon themselves and their followers. The request of Pentecostals/Charismatics to be baptized with fire is a request to be cast into the Lake of Fire at the second death." -- Berean Research Institute

Thanks for posting this, it is food for further study

Quote"The request of Pentecostals/Charismatics to be baptized with fire is a request to be cast into the Lake of Fire at the second death." -- "

I am pretty sure they are not calling for the above, but rather for cleansing, purifying fire as per their understanding.

Blessings,

William, I agree that many who call for fire are not calling for the baptism of hell fire.

But as a spirit filled believer, I have to agree with a-servant regarding the context of the scriptures posted that the baptism of fire is the fire of judgement.

I have thought much on the topic of fire and like you said a purifying fire does indeed refine in the sense it is burning off impurities in our life, spirit, and soul.

I had a brother who passed away in 2011 and he had been ill for some time and he had always confessed that he wanted to be cremated. I never engaged him on the topic until shortly before his death and I told him that I would not do that.

He got angry and could not believe i would challenge his wishes. My response was that fire is something equated with judgement and that his body was to be preserved and cared for whole to await the reuniting of his spirit and his resurrected body.

The second thing I told him was about how fire or refining fire was used by God to burn off sin in our lives to purify and make us holy.

After that, he never said another word on the topic.

Just sharing my understanding on the subject. I will say as a spirit filled believer there are many many things that I differ on with mainstream charismatics.

For example when they (charismatics that I do not agree with) do call for fire, fire, fire it does not set well in my spirit as I believe they are self professing judgement on their own lives.

As I have said in the past, I believe one of the markers of a false charismatic is one who teaches that Jesus died spiritually. They claim that his physical death was not enough to redeem mankind but that he had to suffer the fires of hell and be the first man born again (their definition of the First begotten from the dead).

So pretty much all of the charismatics I consider suspect all teach this heresy and other jesus.

In the many debates that have taken place as of late on the topic of being baptized in the Holy Spirit one cannot help but see the sweet tender and gentle spirit that was evident in the responses to those who oppose the experience. Truly teachers, apt to teach.

A good thread/topic for those of us who have the genuine experience would maybe be where we disagree and not bear witness with the counterfeit charismatics.

I will say that Smith Wigglesworth absolutely does not fall in line with the charismatics I disagree with. The quote posted may be accurate but this is where I would agree with your summation that he was calling for a refining fire to purify and not judge.

A-Servant,

I am thinking,that baptism of fire is the fire that the Lord puts within our hearts,at that time to burn up the gross, from the pure gold.
And too,...to set our hearts ablaze for Him.

*I have thought lately of this song:
"Light The Fire In My Heart Again"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-80EzeM0FI&feature=share

Another one I love,hope it blesses someone
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aSIazjrA0Ls
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elizabeth

I actually never thought about it before reading the Harry Ironside
book. And even then I had to read it 3-4 times and check the Bible
to understand that the context supports only one position.

Before that I would had to believe Wigglesworth, or one of many
people that all read Matthew 3:11 without looking at what follows:

Matthew 3:12  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly
purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner;
but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is the fire it refers to.

That's what happens when we get brainwashed with contemporary
teachings that are based on some people's dogma, but not scripture.

That phrase "catch the fire" is very clever, it's satanic truth hidden
in plain sight, just like the greeting "hello" - what either means
"hell - ohhh!" or "hell - low ".

So the quote by Berean Research Institute is correct,
when the understanding is wrong, what we ask for is wrong,
and Wigglesworth is partially correct in his quote that the
weeping (and gnashing of teeth) comes through the baptism of fire.

"David do you have a chapter and verse on that?”

No I don’t believe the bible specifically says a person should not be cremated per say, It is more of a personal conviction based on the care that was taken with those who had died like Jesus for example. Great care was taken in anointing and wrapping His body and my personal belief has to do with the fact that one day our bodies will be raised up in the resurrection and reunited with our spirit.

It does not mean that God cannot gather those who die by fire or are eaten alive, etc. God can do anything He wants.

"What about those martyred saints who were burned at the stake for their faith in Christ?.....”

Like I said, God can gather our remains from whatever state our bodies are in when we die. But I believe that the fire used to burn the saints was a fire of judgement, NOT Gods judgement, but man’s judgement.

The original topic of the thread however was based on the scriptures that were provided regarding a baptism of fire and I believe they clearly teach of the eternal fire of judgement when you look at the text.

While there are things fire is good for such as keeping warm, cooking, and light these forms of fire are not eternal. If Christians choose to be cremated, that is their own personal choice but a choice I do not feel comfortable with.

Hope this helps to clarify my position.

We must not assume that the "fire” John the Baptist spoke of refers to judgement, although it may.

Remember Pentecost? The Spirit…the wind…fire separating upon each person….speaking in tongues and prophecying?

If you have the time, read the comments below:

Question: "What are cloven tongues?"

Answer: When people hear of "cloven tongues,” they almost immediately think of Acts 2:3. As the Holy Spirit filled the 120 disciples in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost, "there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them” (KJV). Other translations refer to "divided tongues as of fire” (ESV) or "tongues as of fire distributing themselves” (NASB).

The word cloven means "divided” or "separated.” The picture is of something like a large fire appearing in the room then dividing into "tongues” that rested momentarily upon each person in the room. Luke is careful to say that this was not actual fire, only "what seemed to be . . . fire” (Acts 2:3). The dividing of the "fire” into small, tongue-shaped flames signifies several things: John the Baptist’s prophecy of Jesus’ baptizing people "with the Holy Spirit and fire” was possibly being fulfilled (see Matthew 3:11), there is one Spirit who gives many gifts (see 1 Corinthians 12:11), there was a great variety of languages that the disciples were being enabled to speak (see Acts 2:6”“11), and the disciples were being granted "fiery” eloquence to preach the gospel to all nations (see Acts 4:13).

Before His ascension, Jesus had told His disciples not to leave Jerusalem but to stay there and "wait for the gift my Father promised. . . . In a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 1:4”“5). The gift of God came with an audible sign””the sound like a "rushing mighty wind” (Acts 2:2, KJV)””and with a visible sign””the "cloven tongues like as of fire” (verse 3, KJV). The Lord was true to His word, and the followers of Christ were changed forever. The presence of God Himself had come to indwell us, and the world was turned upside down (Acts 17:6).

And

Tongues of Fire and the Fullness of God
________________________________________
Ӣ\tResource by
John Piper

”¢\tScripture: Acts 2:1”“13 Topic: The Holy Spirit
When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. And they were amazed and wondered, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Par'thians and Medes and E'lamites and residents of Mesopota'mia, Judea and Cappado'cia, Pontus and Asia, Phyrg'ia and Pamphyl'ia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyre'ne, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians, we hear them telling in our tongues the mighty works of God." And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "What does this mean?" But others mocking said, "They are filled with new wine."
In recent weeks the argument I have developed goes like this:
\tPREMISE 1: The power promised by Jesus in Acts 1:8 and Luke 24:49 is an extraordinary power. The experience promised is beyond the power of the Spirit in new birth and gradual sanctification. This is plain, I think, from the terms ("clothing with power" or "the Spirit's coming upon"), and from the effects of the power seen when it comes in the book of Acts (as here in Acts 2), and from the fact that the disciples were already born again before Pentecost (Luke 10:20; John 15:3).
\tPREMISE 2: This promise that the disciples would receive power when the Holy Spirit came upon them (Acts 1:8) and that they would be clothed with power from on high (Luke 24:49) was a promise given to sustain the completion of world evangelization, and all the ministry that supports it. The context of both texts makes that plain. "You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses . . . to the end of the earth."
\tPREMISE 3: The task of world evangelization is not yet complete.
\tCONCLUSION: Therefore the promise of this extraordinary power to sustain and carry forth the work is still valid.
The Lessons of History Supporting Our Conclusion
The lessons of history give a strong support for this””namely, that crucial breakthroughs for the gospel have come because of periodic extraordinary outpourings of the Spirit. Jonathan Edwards, the leader of the Great Awakening 200 years ago in this country, put it like this:
From the fall of man to our day, the work of redemption in its effect has mainly been carried on by remarkable [i.e., extraordinary] communications of the Spirit of God. Though there [is] a more constant influence of God's Spirit always in some degree attending his ordinances, yet the way in which the greatest things have been done towards carrying on this work, always have been by remarkable effusions [i.e., outpourings], at special seasons of mercy. (A History of Redemption, Works, vol. 1, p. 539)
In other words, from time to time, God has moved in extraordinary ways in the history of the Christian movement. He has poured out his Spirit in fresh, new, uncustomary, dramatic ways. These times have been called times of revival or awakening or reformation.
Pentecost was the first of these great outpourings on the Christian church, and until the task of world evangelization is completed, I believe it is our duty to pray for fresh seasons of the extraordinary outpouring of God's Spirit””to awaken and empower the church and to penetrate the final frontiers of world evangelization.
So I come to our text this morning with no mere academic interest in some distant, unrepeatable event. I come with the persuasion that we have much to gain for our day of widespread deadness and powerlessness from the Spirit's work at Pentecost.
"Pentecost"
Let's begin in verse 1 of Acts 2 with the word "Pentecost": "When the day of Pentecost had come . . . " Why did Jesus choose Pentecost as the day when he would pour out the Spirit on the disciples? There are two possible reasons, which are really one when you stop to think about it.
1.\tOn this Jewish holiday there would be a lot of pilgrims in Jerusalem from across the known world. It was one of the three Jewish feasts that called for a pilgrimage to the Holy City. It got its name, Pentecost (fiftieth), from the fact that it took place 50 days after Passover.
2.\tIt was a feast of harvest. That's what it is called in Exodus 23:16 (cf.Deuteronomy 16:10). In other words there was a beautiful symbolic significance: the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in extraordinary power was meant for witness and world evangelization. And what is this but a great harvest in the field of the world. And that is exactly what happened””3,000 people were harvested for God and given eternal life on the day of Pentecost, the feast of harvest.
It's a shame that the term "Pentecostal power" has for many people become more associated with speaking in tongues than with the harvest of world evangelization. I'll come back to the miracle of tongues in a few minutes, but just be sure at this point that you see the main focus: it is a feast of harvest in Jerusalem, and on this very day, Jesus pours out the Spirit in extraordinary power and 3,000 people are harvested from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God.
"Suddenly"
Move now with me to verse 2 and notice the word "suddenly": "And suddenly a sound came from heaven." I focus on this word to drive home the point that the Holy Spirit is free and sovereign and not bound to anyone's timing or technique for how to get his power. We are to bank on his daily, indwelling presence and grace, walk in the obedience of this faith, and pray day and night for the outpouring of power from on high. But we cannot make the Spirit come. When he comes, he comes suddenly. He will never become anyone's bellhop. He loves and he serves. But he keeps his own hours. He knows what is best for us.
In the summer of 1871 two women of Dwight L. Moody's congregation felt an unusual burden to pray for Moody "that the Lord would give him the baptism of the Holy Ghost and of fire." Moody would see them praying in the front row of his church and he was irritated. But soon he gave in and in September began to pray with them every Friday afternoon. He felt like his ministry was becoming a sounding brass with little power. On November 24, 1871, Moody's church building was destroyed in the great Chicago fire. He went to New York to seek financial help. Day and night he would walk the streets desperate for the touch of God's power in his life. Then suddenly,
One day, in the city of New York””oh, what a day!””I cannot describe it, I seldom refer to it; it is almost too sacred an experience to name . . . I can only say that God revealed himself to me, and I had such an experience of his love that I had to ask him to stay his hand. I went to preaching again. The sermons were not different; I did not present any new truths, and yet hundreds were converted. I would not now be placed back where I was before that blessed experience if you should give me all the world””it would be small dust in the balance. (W. R. Moody, The Life of D. L. Moody, New York: 1900, p. 149)
He prayed and he obeyed and he waited. But he did not make the Spirit come. He came suddenly. And when he came, notice that the effect was Pentecostal””not this time in the experience of tongues, but in the harvest. When the Spirit comes in power, he comes suddenly””on his own terms and in his own time””and he comes for harvesting.
Wind and Fire
Next, notice the wind and the fire in verses 2 and 3: "And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them." At times the Holy Spirit makes himself known with visible, audible, touchable manifestations. In the Old Testament there was the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire. At Jesus' baptism there was the dove. In Acts 4 the building shakes. In chapter 6 Stephen's face was like the face of an angel. In chapter 16 there is an earthquake. At times the Spirit stoops to give us visible, audible, touchable demonstrations of his presence and power.
Why he does this for some and not others, and at some times and not other times is part of his sovereign wisdom. He is not fire. He is not wind. He is not a dove. He is not a warm glow. So he will not use these manifestations in a way that allows us to confuse him with them. He is free. But when he pleases, there may be fire and there may be sound.
The Experience of John White
John White, the psychiatrist and missionary and author, tells us of his experience of the Spirit's manifestation:
On one occasion it was as I prayed with the elders and deacons in my home. I had tried to teach them what worship was . . . We then turned to prayer. Perhaps partly to be a model to them I began to express worship, conscious of the poverty of my words. Then suddenly [note the word!] I saw in front of me a column of flame of about two feet in width. It seemed to arise from beneath the floor and to pass through the ceiling of the room. I knew””without being told””knew by some infallible kind of knowing that transcended the use of my intellect, that I was in the presence of the God of holiness. In stunned amazement I watched a rising column of flames in our own living room, while my brothers remained with their heads quietly bowed and their eyes closed . . .
I felt that I was in the presence of reality and that my brothers were asleep. For years afterward I never spoke of the incident. The others who were present could not have perceived the blend of stark terror and joy that threatened to sweep me away. How could I live and see what I saw? Garbled words of love and of worship tumbled out of my mouth as I struggled to hang on to my self-control. I was no longer trying to worship; worship was undoing me, pulling me apart. And to be pulled apart was both terrifying and full of glory. (When the Spirit Comes with Power, p. 87”“88)
From Knowing to Experiencing
This is what happened, it seems, to the disciples in Acts 2 when they saw tongues of fire and heard the violent wind. It filled them with an overwhelming sense of the presence of God. Until that moment we can imagine them praying (Acts 1:14) and reciting to each other the 23rd Psalm and saying, "Though I walk through the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for thou art with me," and rejoicing that God was with them””he was right there in that very room. How did they know it? The Bible told them so. Just the way we know so many wonderful things: "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so."
Then suddenly something happens that utterly transforms their knowledge of God's presence into the experience of God's presence. They see fire on each other's heads and they hear a loud wind. And they are filled not merely with a deductive certainty of God's present reality based on Psalm 23, but with an experiential certainty based on the extraordinary outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The fire begins to burn in their hearts (Luke 24:32) and in their mouths ("tongues of fire"), and the sound of the wind surrounds them and envelops them with the tokens of God's power. And they are simply overwhelmed with the greatness of God. And it begins to spill out in praise. Like John White, they are almost undone by worship””so much so that some people say they are drunk (v. 13).
Overflowing with Worship and Praise
The reason I say they are overflowing with worship and praise is because of verse 11: "We hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God." Luke calls this the fullness of the Holy Spirit in verse 4: "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Being filled with the Holy Spirit here is being overwhelmed with the greatness of God. The literal translation of verse 11 is that they were speaking "the greatnesses of God." Since the Spirit was giving them utterance, and since the utterance was of God's greatness, I take the fullness of the Spirit to mean that the Spirit's experience of the greatness of God becomes our experience of the greatness of God.
The flames on their heads had set fire to the knowledge of God, and turned it into passion. And the violence and loudness of the wind had drowned out all the puny voices of doubt and uncertainty. And so every remnant of timidity and hesitancy and weakness is swallowed up in the experience of God's greatness. And a tremendous boldness and courage and zeal was unleashed as they gave witness to the greatness of God.
The Essence of the Fullness They Received
That's the essence of the fullness (or the baptism in 1:4”“5) that they received””an overwhelming experience of the greatness of God and a spilling over in courageous, passionate praise and witness. I don't say the miracle of speaking in other languages is at the heart of the experience because the Spirit fell on the church again in Acts 4:31 and the house was shaken and the fullness came and the passion and boldness was there, but there were no new tongues. Nor were there wind and fire. In other words, God seems to give whatever manifestations he pleases at different times. They are not the essence.
The speaking in tongues in Acts has a very definite roll to play. It's directly connected to the presence of people from all the nations who need to understand the great things the disciples were saying. In other words the miracle of tongues was a demonstration of God's sovereign power, and it showed that this power promised in Acts 1:8 really was intended to advance the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth. It was a token that God means for all peoples to understand his greatness and that he is willing to do miracles to make his glory known among the nations.
Amazement and Perplexity
That leaves just one last observation from the text. And it turns out to be a caution to us. In verse 12 the demonstration of God's power in the miracle of tongues causes amazement and perplexity among everyone. "And all were amazed and perplexed." But the perplexity gave way to two very different responses. Some seriously asked, "What does this mean?" Others (in verse 13) mocked and leaped to a naturalistic explanation: "They are filled with new wine."
This is the caution: whenever revival comes””whenever the Holy Spirit is poured out in extraordinary power””this division happens in the Christian community. Some genuinely inquire as to what this is, and test all things, and hold fast to what is good. Others stand outside and mock and write off the enthusiasm as merely human, "They are filled with new wine."
There are some signs today that we are in the first stages of a genuine, widespread awakening. Not the least of which is the undying desire and prayer in the hearts of so many of us at Bethlehem that God would rend the heavens and come down and revive his church and empower us for the final thrust of world evangelization. If this is true, what we need very much is discerning, expectant, open hearts that say, "What indeed is this?" and then listen for a biblical answer.
John Piper (@JohnPiper) is founder and teacher of desiringGod.org and chancellor of Bethlehem College & Seminary. For 33 years, he served as pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church, Minneapolis, Minnesota. He is author of more than 50 books, including Reading the Bible Supernaturally.
SERIES: ACTS: WHAT JESUS DID AFTER THE BEGINNING

Further commentary...very precise

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
And there appeared unto them - There were seen by them, or they saw. The fire was first seen by them in the room before it rested in the form of tongues on the heads of the disciples. Perhaps the fire appeared at first as scintillations or coruscations, until it became fixed on their heads.
Tongues - γλῶσσαι glōssai. The word "tongue" occurs often in the Scriptures to denote the member which is the instrument of taste and speech, and also to denote "language" or "speech" itself. It is also used, as with us, to denote what in shape resembles the tongue. Thus, Joshua 7:21, Joshua 7:24 (in Hebrew), "a tongue of gold," that is, a wedge of gold; Joshua 15:5; Joshua 18:19; Isaiah 11:15, "The tongue of the sea," that is, a bay or gulf. Thus also we say "a tongue of land." The phrase "tongue of fire" occurs once, and once only, in the Old Testament Isaiah 5:24, "Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble (Hebrew: tongue of fire), and the flame consumeth," etc. In this place the name tongue is given from the resemblance of a pointed flame to the human tongue. Anything long, narrow, and tending to a point is thus in the Hebrew called "a tongue." The word here means, therefore, "slender and pointed appearances" of flame, perhaps at first moving irregularly around the room.

cloven - Divided, separated - διαμεριζόμεναι diamerizomenai - from the verb διαμερίζω diamerizō, "to divide, or distribute into parts." Matthew 27:35, "they parted his garments"; Luke 22:17, "Take this (the cup) and divide it among yourselves." Probably the common opinion is, that these tongues or flames were, each one of them split, or forked, or cloven. But this is not the meaning of the expression. The idea is that they were separated or divided one from another; it was not one great flame, but was broken up, or cloven into many parts, and probably these parts were moving without order in the room. In the Syriac it is, "And there appeared unto them tongues which divided themselves like fire, and sat upon each of them." The old Ethiopic version reads it, "And fire, as it were, appeared to them and sat on them."

And it sat upon each of them - Or "rested," in the form of a lambent or gentle flame, upon the head of each one. This showed that the prodigy was directed to them, and was a very significant emblem of the promised descent of the Holy Spirit. After the rushing sound and the appearance of the flames, they could not doubt that here was some remarkable interposition of God. The appearance of fire, or flame, has always been regarded as a most striking emblem of the Divinity. Thus, Exodus 3:2-3, God is said to have manifested himself to Moses in a bush which was burning, yet not consumed. Thus, Exodus 19:16-20, God descended on Mount Sinai in the midst of thunders, and lightnings, and smoke, and fire, striking emblems of his presence and power. See also Genesis 15:17. Thus, Deuteronomy 4:24, God is said to be "a consuming fire." Compare Hebrews 12:29. See Ezekiel 1:4; Psalm 18:12-14. The Classic reader will also instantly recall the beautiful description in Virgil (Aeneid, b. 2:680-691). Other instances of a similar prodigy are also recorded in profane writers (Pliny, H. N., 2:37; Livy, 1:39). These appearances to the apostles were emblematic, doubtless:

(1) Of the promised Holy Spirit, as a Spirit of purity and of power. The prediction of John the Immerser, "He shall baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire" Matthew 3:11 would probably be recalled at once to their memory.

(2) The unique appearance, that of tongues, was an emblem of the diversity of languages which they were about to be able to utter. Any form of fire would have denoted the presence and power of God; but a form was adopted expressive of "what was to occur." Thus, "any divine appearance" or "manifestation" at the baptism of Jesus might have denoted the presence and approbation of God; but the form chosen was that of a dove descending - expressive of the mild and gentle virtues with which he was to be imbued. So in Ezekiel 1:4, any form of flame might have denoted the presence of God; but the appearance actually chosen was one that was strikingly emblematical of his providence. In the same way, the appearance here symbolized their special endowments for entering on their great work - the ability to speak with new tongues.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
3. cloven tongues, like as of fire, &c.””"disparted tongues," that is, tongue-shaped, flame-like appearances, rising from a common center or root, and resting upon each of that large company:””beautiful visible symbol of the burning energy of the Spirit now descending in all His plenitude upon the Church, and about to pour itself through every tongue, and over every tribe of men under heaven!
Matthew Poole's Commentary
Cloven tongs; to signify the variety of languages which the apostles should be enabled to speak, to qualify them to preach the gospel unto all nations, and to remove the obstacle which the confusion of tongues caused.

Like as of fire; which represented,

1. The light that the apostles should impart;

2. The fervent heat and zeal which they should be endowed with;

3. The gospel’s spreading in the world, and carrying all before it, prevailing over all errors;

4. The purity and holiness which they and all that preach the gospel ought to appear withal.

And it sat upon each of them; remained, as far as was necessary for the founding of the Christian religion; and was not, as the gift of prophecy, bestowed only occasionally, as on Nathan, Samuel.

When you've looked at the recent eclipse of the sun
it appeared as the "black hole sun" - for a moment

but it wasn't. There is no black hole sun. It just appeared that way.

"As of fire" appearance has nothing to do with fire.

Besides Acts was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit,
we are talking about something different here.

William Booth, 1894
Founder of Salvation Army:
Send The Fire:

Thou Christ of burning, cleansing flame,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
Thy blood-bought gift today we claim,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
Look down and see this waiting host,
Give us the promised Holy Ghost;
We want another Pentecost,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
God of Elijah, hear our cry:
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
To make us fit to live or die,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
To burn up every trace of sin,
To bring the light and glory in,
The revolution now begin,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
’Tis fire we want, for fire we plead,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
The fire will meet our every need,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
For strength to ever do the right,
For grace to conquer in the fight,
For pow’r to walk the world in white,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
To make our weak hearts strong and brave,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
To live a dying world to save,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
Oh, see us on Thy altar lay
Our lives, our all, this very day;
To crown the off’ring now we pray,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!

A. B. Simpson wrote:

The baptism of John represented the cleansing of our life and conduct, the reformation of our character, and the work of the law and the truth upon human hearts. But Christ’s baptism was by fire, and went to the roots of conduct. The purity He required included motives, aims, and the "thoughts and intents of the heart.” He not only requires but He gives the purity that springs from the depths of our being. Like the flame that consumes the dross and leaves the molten metal pure and unalloyed, so the Holy Ghost separates us from our old sinful and self-like nature and burns into us the nature of the life of Christ (The Holy Spirit).

William Evans, writing in The Great Doctrines of the Bible, said one of the names ascribed to the Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of burning.” Evans cites two scriptures: Matthew 3:11 ("He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire)” and Isaiah 4:4 ("When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion . . . by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning”). This cleansing from filth is done by the blast of the Spirit’s burning. Here is the searching, illuminating, refining, dross-consuming character of the Spirit. He burns up the dross in our lives when He enters to take possession.

George D. Watson wrote:

True fire has its seat in the heart. It melts the affections . . . and all its furnace flames are centered in the love nature. False fire runs up into the head and centers itself in the imagination and produces rashness and impractical schemes. It produces an unbalanced view of truth. True fire produces great tenderness of spirit and a yearning in the soul for the welfare of everyone (apologeticsindex.org).

"Men ablaze are invincible,” said Samuel Chadwick. "Hell trembles when men kindle. The church is powerless without the flame of the Holy Ghost. Destitute of fire, nothing else really counts; possessed of fire, nothing else really matters. Without the flame and fervor of the Holy Ghost, the church will never accomplish its mission.”

The interpretation of Baptism of fire posted here is totally erroneous. To interpret this way, as the post says, one has to read the scripture this way

Whether you are baptized by
me or not, you shall all be baptized by the coming mighty One, either
by the Holy Spirit, OR in fire!

But the scripture does not say Holy Spirit OR fire, but Holy Spirit AND Fire. Any interpretation of scripture that requires altering the scripture is a lie of the devil! Period.

Jesus himself said - Luke 12:49 I have come to ignite a fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

Heb 12:29 -For our God is a consuming fire.

When God himself is a consuming fire, how can his Spirit (Holy Spirit) not be compared to a consuming fire!

Like I said all these alternate interpretations have been deviced to prove the Pentecostals wrong. Not everything practiced among Pentecostals are real fire, but ignoring the fire because of fake fire, is another extreme.

So far nobody seem to understand John the Baptist
in context, but everybody creates their own context.

Here a bit of context of what other terms used mean actually:

Deuteronomy 4:24  For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger: I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

"There are 515 verses of scripture referring to "fire"; none of which subjects believers themselves to fire. So, clearly, believers shall never be "baptized" with fire." -- Berean Research Institute

So where they get it from? Fables and false teachers

"On Aug. 11, 1927, Smith Wigglesworth stood in Angelus Temple to preach on preparing for the Second Coming of Christ. He told the audience that liquid fire was consuming him. Then Wigglesworth made this opening statement:

But there will be things that will happen prior to His coming that we shall know. You can tell. I am like one this morning that is moving with a liquid, holy, indispensable, real fire in my bosom, and I know it is burning and the body is not consumed. It is real fire from heaven that is making my utterances come to you to know that He is coming. He is on the way. God is going to help me tell you why you will know. You that have the breath of the Spirit, there is something now moving as I speak. As I speak, this breath of mighty, quickening, moving, changing, desirable power is making you know and it is this alone that is making you know that you will be ready.........." --- charismanews

 
"liquid fire" - unscriptural, but sounds good, like flowing lava

"holy, indispensable, real fire in bosom" - unscriptural, there are 515 verses of scripture referring to "fire"; none of which subjects believers themselves to fire.

"I know it is burning and the body is not consumed" - unscriptural, but reminds of the lake of fire where 'their worm dieth not' and is not consumed

"It is real fire from heaven" - ....he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men Rev 13:13

So far nobody seem to understand John the Baptist
in context, but everybody creates their own context.

Let us see what the context is,

Matt 3-11-I baptize YOU with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize YOU with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

The YOU used in the starting of verse 11 refers to those who obey God by being baptized by John. So the word YOU in the last part where he says 'baptize YOU with the Holy Spirit and with Fire', should mean the same YOU. This is how anyone who reads this verse in context will assume.

The alternate meaning that you are proposing here will work only when we do the following,

1. Assume that the word YOU is referring to different set of people for Holy Spirit compared to fire. Which is not the case when read with the context within verse 11.

2. Replace AND with OR.

In either case it is not a straightforward explanation of Matt 3-11.

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Exactly, the title 'consuming fire' and jealous are both same. A fire cannot be restricted from consuming just one part of the object. Fire's nature is always to consume the entire object placed in it. Same way our God will also consume the entire person for himself. He is not a God who is happy with just partial obedience to him. Like Jesus said, one cannot serve God and money!

Baptism of Holy Spirit is compared with baptism of fire because just like fire that consumes the entire object, Holy Spirit will now take control of entire person. Like how Jesus was, 'Zeal for God's house has consumed him'.

In New Covenant we have the Holy Spirit compared as all these 3 basic elements.

1. Fire - Matt 3:11 - Jesus will Baptize you with Holy Spirit and Fire.

2. Wind - The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

3. Water - John 4- 17 - the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.

What is the Baptism of Fire

If the Bible itself is not understandable to you:

check Wikipedia if you want to understand it
according to the teaching of 1900 years of Christianity

I also could point you to a Christian forum where
they all understand it, according to scripture,
but that would probably be against the tos .

The question is: Why do pentecostals and
charismatics not understand simple doctrines as this?

Luke 24:32 They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

Let me try one more time, there is always
a hope that at least one person can focus
and concentrate long enough to see it:

In Matthew 3:7-12 we find three times 'fire'

Every tree that doesn't bring good fruit :

a) is cast into the fire

b) will get baptized with fire

c) and will burn up with unquenchable fire

From Matthew Henry's commentary(don't think he was a charismatic):

"They who are baptized with the Holy Ghost are baptized as with fire; the seven spirits of God appear as seven lamps of fire, Rev. 4:5. Is fire enlightening? So the Spirit is a Spirit of illumination. Is it warming? And do not their hearts burn within them? Is it consuming? And does not the Spirit of judgment, as a Spirit of burning, consume the dross of their corruptions? Does fire make all it seizes like itself? And does it move upwards? So does the Spirit make the soul holy like itself, and its tendency is heaven-ward. Christ says I am come to send fire, Lu. 12:49."

I appreciate the input on this topic and while I do not always post on many debated subjects it does challenge me to dig deeper into the scriptures and prayerfully ponder them. I also appreciate the information that has been submitted and have no argument regarding a Holy Refining Fire in the believer’s life. So there is no denial of this Holy Fire or what was shared in relation to the tongues of fire.

Yet I cannot reconcile Matthew Chapter 3 and the fire it speaks of as a Holy Spirit Fire of Refining but rather see it as a fire of judgement and here is why.

The first 3 verses of Matthew we see John preaching repentance and fulfilling the words of the prophet Isaiah. Now a preacher doesn’t just preach to those who will accept the message but also to those who will reject the message. There are always TWO audiences.

Matthew 3:1-3, In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, (2) And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (3) For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Now here comes the FIRST audience who were Jews (Sinners) that received Johns message and they repented of their sins and were baptized.

Matthew 3:5-6, Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, (6) And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Now here comes a SECOND audience who were religious people who thought that by keeping the law of God were made perfect. John admonishes this group and tells them that they need to bring forth the same fruit of repentance as the FIRST group and not to think that they are Holy just because they were decendents of Abraham.

Matthew 3:7-9, But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: (9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Now John is speaking to BOTH audiences, not just those who received his message because he says to the mixed audience that the axe is going to cut down the trees and every tree that does not bear fruit will be cut down and cast into the fire. I do not see this as a Holy Refining fire as the following verses clearly show.

Matthew 3:10, And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

John has TWO audiences before him as both Jews who responded and who repented and were baptized and also the Pharisees who were trusting within themselves. John tells those who accepted his message that they will be baptized by Jesus with the Holy Ghost, and he is also telling those who would reject his message and were unwilling to repent and bear fruit that they will be baptized with eternal fire, not Holy refining fire.

Matthew 3:11, I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

How do we know that there are two baptisms? Because there are TWO audiences. The next verse makes it plain and clear that the FIRST audience is called WHEAT (Sheep) who will be gathered into the barn (This barn signifies those who are saved, preserved, sanctified, those who would be gathered in the Upper Room, and also the Church). The SECOND audience is the CHAFF (Tares) who will be burnt with unquenchable fire. This fire is not a Holy Refining fire that other areas of scriptures speak of and validate.

Matthew 3:12 (12) Whose fan is in His hand, and He will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

When God purges His floor He is separating between two audiences, those who receive the Spirit of the living God and those who reject Him.

Now look at the parallel account of this story in the Gospel Mark 1:2-8, Mark’s account only records ONE audience coming to John it says nothing about the Pharisees at all. In verse 5 Mark only records those Jews who received his message and repented and were baptized.

Mark 1:5, And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

In verse 8 Mark only records to this SINGLE audience that they will be baptized with the Holy Ghost, Fire is not mentioned at all. Why? Because Mark does not mention the SECOND audience at all.

Mark 1:8, I indeed have baptized you with water: but He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Brethren, I trust you understand that not only within the church of God there are indeed TWO audiences, but within the Charismatic/Pentecostal group there are indeed TWO audiences. And yes there are even TWO audiences within those who have repented, confessed Christ, are regenerated, called, continue to seek all that God has for them, and are the workmanship of God.

In my studies and ponderings not just recently but over the years I realize there are fires of REFINING that are HOLY that burn off sin and cleanse us and purifies us from things God and the Holy Spirit wants removed from our lives.

There is also STRANGE fire that is a counterfeit, false fire that mimics the Holy Refining fire, and this strange fire and its fruit will not be accepted by God.

And as what I see and I am at peace with regarding the fire that Matthews account tells is a fire of JUDGEMENT of which, once we pass from this life and are unwilling to repent and accept Christ, there is no chance of redemption.

There is also an account recorded in John on this subject which does not mention fire either but mentions the form of the Holy Spirit resting upon Jesus in the form of a Dove.

So is there some significance that the Baptism of Fire is only mentioned in Matthew (Written to Jews) and not in Mark (Written to Romans) or John (Written to All)? At the end of the day if we want to speak of a Holy Refining fire there are plenty of scriptures to use and not feel compelled to make Matthew 3 say something it simply does not say.

We can always count on Harry Ironside to shed a ray of sunshine and promote love and Unity among brethren

In Matthew 3:7-12 we find three times 'fire'

Every tree that doesn't bring good fruit :

a) is cast into the fire

b) will get baptized with fire

c) and will burn up with unquenchable fire

Why should the importance be given to the word fire alone? Put the focus on the word 'Baptize', you will hear equally good context (if not better),
a) I baptize you in Water for Repentance
b) Jesus baptizes you in Holy Spirit
c) Jesus baptizes you in Fire

The word 'AND' used to connect them signifies that they are given one on top of another.

All 3 directed at same people referred as YOU. In all 3 places Baptism is mentioned as a good thing from God.

God's word is Spirit and living word. A living person can be understood differently by different people. For example my colleagues, my church brothers and my wife can have a totally different understanding of my personalities. All of them are right. It is only perspective that makes them different. Same way, God's word can also be understood differently, as it is a living word. No one can argue that only his understanding is right. It is as stupid as my colleagues arguing that their understanding of me is better than my wife!

Similarly it is very dangerous when one use their interpretation of scripture to conclude that there is no purging work of the Spirit! Like D Fella has said here, he has different understanding of this scripture that I do not agree. But he does not use his interpretation to deny the purging work of Fire of the spirit.

David, yea almost, except:

I'm not sure what Bible you are reading, I'm reading KJV
and I don't find ANY "Holy Refining Fire" or "Holy Fire" in it.

It's a rational concept in American Religion
but not in Christianity. Of course everyone knows
what you mean by abstract thinking, but it is still
a wrong expression and a mental concept that places
the believer on the side of the unbeliever

Using 'fire' in context of pointing to the holiness of God,
to the believer as a refiner is using terms that in 98%
of cases signifies judgment to fallen creation.

So running around in a church service and shouting
fire-fire-fire! is changing sides from grace to wrath.

"STRANGE fire" is a scriptural concept, it is
trying to offer fleshly worship to a Holy God.

And because He is holy there is no way he can
or will accept that.

David: I appreciate your input on the two fires. To be honest, I have always interpreted the fire here as being one and the same with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But I can see the contextual point you are making and it makes me pause and did a little deeper here. You might just be right, especially since Matthew brackets this verse with two others that offer pretty clear commentary on the fire. It seems pretty inconsistent that he would do this and mean something different in each verse. I believe I am in agreement with you. Thank you brother.

I just read a bunch of translations of the passage and the attending footnotes; most say the more literal rendering is "baptize you IN the HS and IN fire."

Not sure if that makes a difference.

Thank you brothers for all your input and thoughts as they do cause and challenge me to ponder my position as well. I believe and trust we all may be found pure, holy, and precious in His site when He appears.

Now to our dear brother a-servant, wish I knew your first name as I am a man who prefers to be on a first name basis.

I appreciate your tenacity, determination, and zeal and yes I do read the same bible as you KJV and I also use other translations in my studies. I was given a bible when I was a sinner, it was a KJV. I read it and while many things were clear it did not really come alive until 10 years later when I was saved.

I can attest that when I was born again, the Word did indeed become alive and I saw it through a new set of eyes and my understanding was further opened.

Now while I know you are going to disagree with this next statement, but it must be said and I tell the truth, God knows. When I was filled with the Holy Spirit there was yet a deeper revelation of Gods word and a sweet sweet UNITY of Gods word and the Holy Spirit within me. The other brothers and sisters here know exactly what I mean.

I want to apologize for some of my posts in the past when it comes to the topic of the Holy Spirit. I think if we were to sit in a room together there would be no question as to our heart for God but more importantly His heart for us.

a-servant, I think you would be surprised that many of the charismatics you find appalling I do as well. Their practices, behavior, antics, rantings, ravings, are not of the Holy Spirit of God.

But while certain men, teachers, who so focus on the false they leave no room for the True. Herein lies the potential behavior to so accuse the false manifestations, signs, wonders, twisting of the scriptures, etc. that one may find themselves walking a very fine line and may tip over into blaspheming and denying the Holy Spirit.

They did it to Jesus and they will do it to His true followers today. The bible is replete with many admonitions and warnings of such.

But let me answer your statement in regards to a refining fire. You well know that God is going to try, test, and prove those who are His. Through affliction, even a furnace of affliction, trials, temptations, etc..

I am going to go a bit overboard here with the scriptures which is not the norm for me. Many times for myself I can be given ONE scripture that proves a point and the Holy Spirit Quickens it and the matter is settled.

This holds true for others I have ministered to as well. Its not to say that I don't study other scriptures to prove what the Holy Spirit has made alive, the study only further proves what was quickened.

But the problem in ministering to a hard heart (not saying you have a hard heart) or a heart full of pride, you can give that person 50 scriptures and they still choose not to believe. But here goes as to the fire that refines and proves those who truly belong to the Lord, this is not exhaustive by the way.

1 Peter 1:3-7 KJV Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, (5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (6) Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: (7) That the TRIAL of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be TRIED WITH FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:12 KJV Beloved, think it not strange concerning the FIERY TRIAL which is to TRY you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

Job 23:10 KJV But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath TRIED me, I shall come forth as gold.

Psalms 66:10 KJV For thou, O God, hast PROVED us: thou hast TRIED us, as silver is TRIED.

Proverbs 17:3 KJV The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD TRIETH the hearts.

Isaiah 48:10 KJV Behold, I have REFINED thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

Zechariah 13:9 KJV And I will bring the third part THROUGH THE FIRE, and will REFINE them as silver is REFINED, and will TRY them as gold is TRIED: they shall call on my name, and I WILL HEAR THEM: I will say, IT IS MY PEOPLE: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Malachi 3:2-3 KJV But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for He is like a REFINERS FIRE, and like fullers' soap: (3) And he shall sit as a REFINER AND PURIFIER of silver: and he shall PURIFY the sons of Levi, and PURGE them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 KJV (12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be REVEALED BY FIRE; and the FIRE SHALL TRY EVERY MAN'S WORK of what sort it is. (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.

James 1:12 KJV Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is TRIED, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

All the caps are for emphasis and the verses really don't need any explanation but I believe is a good starting point to further study the topic.

As I have said before, the ministry, patience, tenderness, and care of the saints here on SI are a proof that the Holy Spirit is the REAL Spirit of God that indwells them.

While none of us claim to be perfect and we do make mistakes we are all works of a faithful God in progress.

My cousin who is a spirit filled believer who received the Holy Spirit like myself several years after being born again engages many Christians daily as he lives and works in Indiana.

The amount of self professed and supposed spirit filled believers he meets in his line of work which is construction is rather amazing. He meets men who wear shirts with scriptures, scriptures on their trucks, have bibles in their trucks, go to church, etc.. And these men swear like there is no tomorrow, talk about women, live with women out of wedlock, and lie right to my cousins face and so on.

We talk or text almost daily and he gets so grieved and frustrated and when he calls, he will say, "I just met another hypocrite today"

I share this not for any reason to laugh or condemn but the fact of the matter is the Holy Spirit is getting a bad rap because of people like this.

He told one guy that he hired to do some cement work on a project he is working on who lied to my cousins face over and over again on price for the job, how long it was going to take, etc. that my cousin went to him a firmly and soundly rebuked him, and he told him to not mention Gods name to anyone he meets because by his lying cheating behavior he is bringing a reproach against God.

The point is, people like this are no excuse for us not to seek God and want all that He has desired, died for, rose again, and sent His Holy Spirit to indwell us.

God Bless,
Brother Dave

Great, and it proves my point, none of it is called "Holy Fire"

There is no "Holy Fire" in the Bible apart from contexts of judgment,

for example the context of Malachi is:

Malachi 3:2  But who may abide the day of his coming?
and who shall stand when he appeareth?

Jesus is coming in judgment and will refine and purify the sons of Levi

Part of that judgment is Zechariah 13:8  And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off
and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Zechariah 13:9  And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say,
It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

War and extensive EXTERNAL pressure, many deaths, the ones
that survive escape as through the fire.

regarding the Holy Spirit, very interesting, from South Africa:

The Biblical Holy Spirit vs. The False Unholy Spirit of Fire
discerningtheworld.com/2012/06/23/the-biblical-holy-spirit-vs-the-false-unholy-spirit-of-fire

I know it's a pain to read for people that mix Holy Spirit + Spirit of Fire

but honestly it is like mixing heaven + hell

George

Thank you George, I will read the article.