I am not posting this to be divisive. As a child of God that is a citizen of another Kingdom, if you were at an event where the flag was being raised, and the national anthem was being sung, would you stand?
Does being patriotic to our nation bring us in conflict with our allegiance to Jesus?
Yes I stand .... and I cannot imagine in light of Romans 13:1-8 (specifically vs7) one could find it being in conflict.
Having said that,
I’m sure we could create scenarios where, through nuance, one could find a conflict- tho (in my understanding) that would require us to force a position or preference upon the text rather than simply being humble and obeying God in a clear and reasonable command.
Brother Mike
I am a believer of Jesus. I am also fervently praying for revival of this nation.. I would stand for the American Flag.. I am a USA citizen and as a citizen of another country I represent JESUS.. Did He not say render to caesar what is do? I also am a daughter of a veteran who suffered in WWII to help keep America Free.
Matthew 22:20-22
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.
So yes.. I would stand and also will continue to pray for revival.
in Jesus
sister Frannie
No...I haven't stood for the flag in well over 25 years and I'm not going to. I'm not going into the whole thing but when I was in college (I had been Born Again well over 10 years at this point}, I had one epiphany after another (please don't ask). It was like an appointed time where God said "it all has to go". So much so it changed the trajectory of my professional and sociopolitical life. He laid it all out for me. I didn't even pledge a Sorority. Think 2 Timothy 2:2-4. So for me the only flag I will ever be standing for is the blood stained banner one. I can't speak for anyone else but this is my true conviction.
Whether it is NFL protests, or racism or police brutality, we hear a lot spoken about freedom in our age. Every day we here that we are free to protest, we are free to resist, free to fight back free to express whatever that is on our mind. The following article is solely for Christians whether black or white. It is not for the secular mind which could not possibly even begin to understand what true freedom in Christ means.
As a man born in Scotland, there is a mythological notion about what it means to fight for freedom. It is wrapped up in the psyche of the people and Scotland, in many ways, has become synonymous with freedom, thanks mostly to Hollywood and history. Indeed the declaration of Arbroath was the forerunner, by centuries, to the declaration of Independence. This notion of rising up and throwing off our oppressors is a very glamorous notion. Rebellion and rejection of authority is fundamental to the very essence of what it means to be American and really what it means to be human thanks to the garden of Eden. Shortly after coming to Jesus I had a vision. It was a powerful vision that took my breath away and changed forever my notions of freedom. Here it is...............
"I felt the rush of air rising beneath me, lifting me in the updrafts of His presence up and through the clouds. Suddenly a mountain top appeared, rising majestically through a sea of gray.The mountain trembled and the thunder clapped and I heard Jesus say, ” go.” I flapped my arms effortlessly and soon the mountain was far behind as I flew over rivers and valley’s and great forests of pine. Then I came across a great assembly of men gathered together on a bleak and desolate Scottish moor as the rain began to fall and the wind howled in anguished anticipation. Words of freedom echoed up to the sky above from the ground below. And Jesus said to me "will a man die for freedom? How many men have spilled their blood and hastened their souls to eternal damnation for that which is not even a shadow. These men fought and died not knowing that it is not in the winning or the losing, neither can that which they seek be attained by knife or sword." I flapped my arms once more and suddenly the mists of time rolled back, back, unto the dawning of a different age. Below me, another assembly of men, angry men. These men were not fighting for freedom, they were seeking to destroy it. They shouted,”crucify Him, crucify Him,” and freedom hung in the balance. And all of hell’s fury cheered as the sky grew dark and the lightning flashed and the earth stood still in utter dismay. Would the sun ever rise in the sky again, or had darkness won the day? Then after three days and three nights, from a sea of darkness and gloom, rose majestically, a pure white standard that shattered the darkness forever. Now the white flag signifies surrender, when we surrender our life’s to Jesus, we gain victory from the jaws of defeat and the darkness is destroyed forever."
Jesus shattered my notions of freedom by this vision and word. What a tragedy that men and nations could fight for political freedom, could throw off the shackles of slavery and then die knowing nothing of true freedom. This freedom was given to us, not by men, for what is given by men can be taken by men, no, this freedom that was given to us by God Himself on the bloody battle-field of Calvary of which no man nor power that exists can take from us. Would it not be better to live as a slave in this world but be a free man in the world that was and is and is to come? What a tragedy to throw off the shackles of human slavery and yet die a slave to sin and eternal damnation. Temporal political freedom means nothing in the Kingdom of God. The only freedom that truly matters is the freedom that we have in Christ.
I am wearied of any identity that exists outside of our identity in Christ. Identifying and highlighting our so-called differences runs counter to the Scriptures. If we are in Christ then we are one. Christians should not allow the secular world to divide that which the Lord has united. It is the work of Satan himself in the guise of clever and devious politicians to divide and conquer. I see no black man, I see no white man, I see no brown man, I see no yellow man.I see Christ in my brothers and sisters and in that there is true freedom. Freedom from hatred, freedom from bitterness, freedom from anger, freedom from the desire for revenge. The Body of Christ should be the shining city on the hill. Do you hate or dislike another man because he is white? Do you hate or dislike another man because he is black? Then you are a slave and you know nothing of the freedom of which I speak. You will gravitate towards secular men and away from Jesus as the sting of slavery begins to bite deeper and deeper. Would you be free today? Lay down your rights. Would you be free today? Lay down your long-held grievances for you cannot serve two masters. The true master told an enslaved people that when their earthly masters compelled them to walk one mile, they were to walk two miles. Anything outside of this is to worship Barabbas and reject Jesus. The spirits of the age, like the sirens of old, are luring your ship onto the rocks. The lighthouse that shines in the darkness warns us to flee from such spirits and to put Satan behind us........bro Frank
I would gladly be the ONLY one standing any time anywhere.
Rusty
Yes, absolutely, with hat off and right hand over heart. The star spangled banner is a notoriously hard song to sing but I give it my best shot.
Because not standing is now a magnet of attention, I would stand and do. It ain't about me. Meaningless to me to stand, harmless. Needlessly provocative to sit. I have nothing to prove by it. No one will see Christ in my seat.
by AbideinHim
Does being patriotic to our nation bring us in conflict with our allegiance to Jesus?
What I do believe that conflicts with Christ is for a Christ follower to slander and belittle those who do not stand for the national anthem widening the divide that is already there.
If the Spirit of God be in us, doesn't that make us peacemakers and reconcilers to HIM and not to a way of life?
God bless,
Lisa
I'm not an American, but the issue is the same in any nation.
Therefore I humbly submit that Frank's post is the one that truly represents the spiritual reality.
Whether you stand or sit, we need to watch over our hearts and what we are bound to.
I should not be offended by a mere National Anthem... It not hurt to stand up and show respect to the country God chosen me to be born and grew up...
I love my country (Canada). I absolutely will stand during the national anthem. "God keep our land glorious and free..."
I am an Indian living in US. I was very patriotic before I was born again. Now I have no patriotic feel about any nation. I am really thankful to USA for the religious freedom that I enjoy here. But nothing more.
Regarding standing up for national anthem, I will stand up if there are people around me. I do not want to offend people using my freedom in Christ. If my freedom in Christ offends someone then I am not using it right.
Romans 13:7 - Pay everyone what you owe him: taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, RESPECT TO WHOM RESPECT IS DUE, honor to whom honor is due.
If people around you expect you to Respect the national anthem then pay the respect. I believe not paying the respect in the name of freedom in Christ is a Sin as well according to Romans 13:7.
Greeting Sree
by Sree on 2017/9/29 7:50:00
Romans 13:7 - Pay everyone what you owe him: taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, RESPECT TO WHOM RESPECT IS DUE, honor to whom honor is due.
If people around you expect you to Respect the national anthem then pay the respect. I believe not paying the respect in the name of freedom in Christ is a Sin as well according to Romans 13:7.
__________________
Just a quick question I have if I may:) Would it be a sin then if say an official called everyone together and said when the music is played everyone come together and bow down to worship? Would it be sin for someone not to do that? I suppose everyone who was doing it would expect us to do so also? I realize you will probably think well no one is asking us to bow down and worship the flag...perhaps that is true, but then again some come dangerously close to that if not out right do...
Before you think I have answered the question with my questions let me say that is not the case. I am just more curious to your or anyone else reasoning for pronouncing it a sin not to stand.
I realize you shared scripture but I am not sure that we are compelled to stand for the anthem the way you are compelled to pay taxes...Do you think we are?
Also as I wonder and I continue thinking of this topic, wasn't caesar of Rome to be considered as GOD and for a lot of Romans they believed he was but I know GOD would not want me to pay homage to caeser in such a way? Perhaps there is no correlation there but something to consider before HIM I think. (The last thoughts are my own thoughts and have nothing to do with what you shared. Please do not think I am implying you were suggesting anything other than what you shared,)
As for my answer to the original post...Honestly I have not been to any event in recent memory or even not so recent memory where the national anthem is played so this question has not come up for me at all. I really do not foresee it coming up in the future so I think my best answer would be not to deal in "what if" questions and say if I found myself in the situation where I had to decide to stand or remain seated I would pray in that moment and ask GOD what HE would have me do. I am learning if I am truly going to surrender all, that means every moment of my day and every choice I make. Even if I should stand or sit for me should be put to prayer first then upon HIS leading I would know exactly what I should do :)
I want to add a disclaimer to my post. I have prayed about writing it however I know that attitudes can always be read into this kind of communication. I have done it myself and am attempting to learn not to :) Anyway, I would like to say the above questions are asked sincerely with no preconceived right or wrong answer. Merely wondering how you or anyone else thinks about this.
And if I may ask the forum at large, did anyone else pray and ask GOD how he would want them to conduct themselves in such a situation? I know we all pray before we post but I am more wondering if anyone prayed specifically "LORD what should I do, stand or sit when the national anthem is played?" Remember no right or wrong answers just wondering.
I want to make it clear I have no real thoughts either way if a person should stand or sit. As I said I have not really considered this because it has not come up for me at all.
God Bless
mj
ps one side note here. I thought was interesting when my son was watching the game and all those players were kneeling, and locking arms...they looked like they were praying. If some of them were would that change our view of it I wonder?
Dear Sister,
Your line of questioning and the logic of it is lost on me.... as it seems to miss the very context of Romans 13 as a whole, which is to submit to every earthy governmental ordinance in order to honor God Himself. Of course that would preclude worshiping an idol of any kind, tho short of that there isn’t really any "wiggle room” that I can find.
Also you make a comparison between saluting a national flag (for which many have given their lives for freedoms sake) and bowing for or worshipping music.... that doesn’t appear to be an equitable analogy as I don’t know of any song for which millions have willingly died to preserve access to, so the two aren’t really comparable (for me).
As far as it being a sin to not stand,... well if we know to do a thing and don’t then that is a sin, no?
Personally I find brother Sree’s position to be consistent with my understanding of not only scripture but more importantly the Spirit of the letter-
Blessings sweet sister :)
Greetings JFW
Thanks for the reply. I was not necessarily making a comparison to anything more like one line of thinking took me on to the next :) I think Ginnyrose calls it a rabbit hole!
I do pray for my leaders and I do pay taxes because the law commands that I do and since it does not interfere with my walk with JESUS to do so, I do it. However, there is no law that compels me to stand for the anthem so I suppose that is where i was thinking there was 'wiggle room'(as you put it) I have no issue with Sree thoughts and heart on the matter either, except the part where he calls it sin not to stand?? I am Praying about that one? I know Romans 13 but as i said there is no governmental ordinance that says I must stand so not sure how I would be sinning if GOD lead me to sit? GOD says to pay taxes because that is the law of the land, in that case there is a governmental ordinance that I do so. right? is there a law or ordinance that says I have to stand for the anthem? that is where I want to be praying further on this one. I just want to be sure that all that I do brings HONOR and GLORY to HIM as I know you all do as well.
I know my other post was a bit rambling. I give you credit for wading through. Could I ask you do you pray and ask JESUS if you should sit or stand for the anthem? you so totally do not have to answer I am just curious. Recently I have been seeing how much of my daily living happens out of my own leading and decision making and not in submitting unto HIM. I do so many things without ever seeking HIM and lately I am seeing if I am sold out for JESUS is that truly the right and heart for me to have??(Sorry that went off topic just a tad. Alas another rabbit hole I suspect)
Anyway did you think it looked like some of the players might have been praying while they were kneeling? Would it matter if they were? My son said, sad truth is some might actually not kneel if they believed someone thought it looked like they were praying instead of protesting. I suppose he is right, he does watch football and I do not. I do like baseball from time to time though :)
Thanks again for the response. I am learning a lot through all this. GOD is so good HE teaches us everyday even in the little things :)
GOD bless
mj
I do have one concern in all this and it flickered in me from a headline I read today where a high school football team has instructed its players that they will be dismissed from the team if they kneel during the national anthem.
Seems to me dangerously close to a loyalty test the likes of which should make Christians check-up on running headlong into this worldly fight. Before we pick the side of non-kneelers vs. kneelers, let's make sure the ramifications of our decision is well thought through. Seems to me that maybe folks aren't taking things to their logical, plausible ends.
Other than this, my biggest gripe has been the muddying of sports and politics. I hate politics. I like football. Politics and media are ruining football. I don't personally care who kneels, stands, sings, or does an Icky Shuffle to the Star-Spangled Banner. If freedom of speech doesn't mean people have a right to be wrong, then it doesn't mean much.
Other than this, my biggest gripe has been the muddying of sports and politics. I hate politics. I like football. Politics and media are ruining football. I don't personally care who kneels, stands, sings, or does an Icky Shuffle to the Star-Spangled Banner. If freedom of speech doesn't mean people have a right to be wrong, then it doesn't mean much.
_______________
Greetings
That is how my son feels as well. He sees all the kneel or don't kneel issue as a huge distraction to the game. He would just like to watch football.
Actually you comment got me thinking further too. What if this had an opposite effect, what if in the not so distant future we found ourselves being forced to stand, to pledge, to pray, to bow down?? Things are happening at an ever increasing rapid pace it seems. If I have the freedom to stand, surely the person next to me has the freedom to sit??
Then again according to my son the NFL rules say the 'players' are to stand so maybe this is just a workplace issue thing ;) More rabbit holes I suspect.
Thanks for letting me chime in.
GOD bless
mj
Sister MJ and Brother Tim,
Yes and Amen to that point!
And it is a concern and does give me pause, that this or any issue like this is walking a razor wire culturally as well as legally and may very well come back to bite us at a future date in a different climate.demanding conformity to a state sponsored code of conduct (outside of established legal context) seems to quickly digress into fascism in one form or another. Which is to say we shouldn’t try to legislate morality, as it will only adddres the byproduct and not the primary issue, which is the heart.
Having said that, my understanding (limited) says that most everything either honors or dishonors God and with that we are commanded in scripture to "do all that you do as unto the Lord” so as sister MJ suggests, we should pray and seek the Lord in all things following after the Spirit of the letter and not the letter of the law.
So to answer your question dear sister,... Yes I pray about it personally and while it may appear that some are praying, I’m not sure that would change it objectively but certainly would subjectively.
For me, the whole "movement” is misguided as it applies blame elsewhere with no personal responsibility being shouldered by those whom are participating in what the core issue (socially) is- which in my opinion is absent fathers in over 70% of the homes that are the victims of police brutality. If those protesters where actually concerned about the problems they claim to be then IMO it would be far more effective to address the problem and not just the symptoms and that can only be addressed with the gospel of Jesus Christ :)
However, there is no law that compels me to stand for the anthem so I suppose that is where i was thinking there was 'wiggle room'(as you put it) I have no issue with Sree thoughts and heart on the matter either, except the part where he calls it sin not to stand??
Sister Romans 13:7 commands us to give respect to those who seek respect. Just like you pay Tax to government based on what they seek, irrespective of whether you agree with their tax law or not. For example I believe it is unjust for USA to demand Tax from me as I am an non-immigrant here. I get no social security benefits, still I need to pay for it! But even though I find it unjust, I still pay it.
Same way whether you agree or not that certain thing has to be respected, if the nation commands you to respect then you better do. It is applicable to people as well. There are politicians in India who are very corrupt, but they demand respect when common man meets them. So when I get a chance to meet these politicians, I make sure I stand and give them the respect that they demand. If I do not show the respect just because I know they are corrupt (which is true), then how am I following Romans 13:7? Am I not withholding respect from a person who demands it?
I hope I clarified my point here.
Sometimes we do not know that this person demands respect, hence you might offend them by not showing the kind of respect they expect. Those are unconscious sins, which we can apologize to both man and God and set things right.
Also possible that one may not see Romans 13:7 in the same light as I see. It depends on how much light they have and how much they value God's word when it comes to obedience.
Sree wrote: I hope I clarified my point here.
______________
You did clarify your understanding of things. For you to remain seated would be a sin. I understand that now. Thank you for responding to me.
God bless
maryjane
As a citizen of another Kingdom, at the moment, I would probably prayerfully stand so as not to give the appearance of evil/ rebellion against the governing authorities God has appointed.
"Does being patriotic to our nation bring us in conflict with our allegiance to Jesus?"
I believe it can, does many times, and will increasingly do so in these last days. Though I grew up reciting every morning in elementary public school , "I pledge allegiance to the flag..." while standing with my hand over my heart,
...after the Lord saved me, I found the thought of pledging allegiance to any earthly flag to be very disturbing and even wrote out a new version of the pledge of allegiance in my journal that started off "I pledge allegiance to the Lamb..."
So what brother Frank shared resonates in that regard:
"What a tragedy that men and nations could fight for political freedom, could throw off the shackles of slavery and then die knowing nothing of true freedom. This freedom was given to us..by God Himself on the bloody battle-field of Calvary...Would it not be better to live as a slave in this world but be a free man in the world that was and is and is to come? What a tragedy to throw off the shackles of human slavery and yet die a slave to sin and eternal damnation. Temporal political freedom means nothing in the Kingdom of God. The only freedom that truly matters is the freedom that we have in Christ."
I do agree with my brothers and sisters as well though who want to demonstrate godly submission/ respect to the governing authorities. So, though the context may be different, the principle of the scripture below came to mind, knowing that each of us in this thread love the Lord and would either stand or not stand as unto Him..may He allow us to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace as we grow togeher in Him and in our understanding. (So thankful for what everyone takes the time to share on here)
"He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks. He who doesn't eat, to the Lord he doesn't eat, and gives God thanks." (Romans 14:6)
This discussion is lacking correlary Scripture.
Mark 7:4 KJV
[4] And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
What does this have to do with honoring a flag?
Look a little further down.
Mark 7:11 KJV
[11] But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free .
So what do you see? Isn’t this a much more profound issue? Here we are discussing the banality of sports culture. What an utter waste of time. Sports culture, the epitome of humanism.
What does Christ say?
Mark 7:10,13 KJV
[10] For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
[13] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Throughout my Saved life I've watched God take things that were seemingly unimportant and use those things to give me a greater understanding of Himself and His Word. A majority of the time it was because I asked a simple question in my heart. There may be some Christians out there who may have questions in their heart regarding patriotism, loyalty, vows, racism, etc. God can be using current events to draw those saints into seeking Him to see what He says about these issues and how to apply His Word concerning these matters. Some Christians have never even thought to ask the Lord and they should. So I don't consider it a small thing at all.
I am a vet having served in The United States Air Force. I did nothing heroic or served in any combat. When I stood guard at the flagpole base where the flag flew in glory in certain places and saluted it in passing by, to me it was an honor and is an honor to this day. Every time I hear the Star Spangled Banner, or see Old Glory I still salute, as to me it is a National Treasure. I don't know how many of us on Sermon Index know or have heard the full song, when I hear it, I stand, pray, salute and thank God for our Nation and His continued blessing on the United States of America.
The Star Spangled Banner Lyrics
By Francis Scott Key 1814
Download a printable PDF ”“ The Star Spangled Banner lyrics
line-stars
Oh, say can you see by the dawn’s early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars thru the perilous
fight,
O’er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket’s red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?
On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe’s haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o’er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning’s first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream:
‘Tis the star-spangled banner! Oh long may it wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion,
A home and a country should leave us no more!
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps’ pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war’s desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav’n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust.”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
The Star Spangled Banner lyrics
"""Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war’s desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav’n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation."""
Who is the Power that hath made us and preserved us a nation?
The Stars and Stripes to me are always a reminder of Gods Hand upon our great country.
"In God We Trust" of which our Flag is that reminder of whose power we are under. Even our money.
Amen; In Christ we stand and our flag is that Standard which I hold High as my reminder of all that have died for it and me. Thank you Father for their lives shared for us; Let Freedom Ring loud and clear.
Phillip
Thank you for your service Phillip.
Reasons why many NFL players
dislike authority - Who knew? Talk about media covering up bad news about celebrities!
If you're wondering why NFL players are acting out against injustice,
it's because many are criminals and criminals always blame someone else.
NFL ARREST DATABASE, by Team, and Number of Arrests Since 2000:
Minnesota Vikings 42
Cincinnati Bengals 40
Denver Broncos 36
Tennessee Titans 33
Miami Dolphins 28
Kansas City Chiefs 28
Jacksonville Jaguars 27
Tampa Bay Buccaneers 27
Cleveland Browns 26
San Diego Chargers 25
Indianapolis Colts 24
Chicago Bears 23
Seattle Seahawks 20
New Orleans Saints 20
Washington Redskins 18
Oakland Raiders 18
Baltimore Ravens 18
Carolina Panthers 18
Green Bay Packers 17
Pittsburgh Steelers 17
Atlanta Falcons 16
San Francisco 49ers 16
Detroit Lions 15
New England Patriots 15
Buffalo Bills 14
Dallas Cowboys 13
New York Giants 13
Arizona Cardinals 12
New York Jets 11
Philadelphia Eagles 10
Houston Texans 9
St Louis Rams 8
Total 656
Data source: San Diego Union Tribune NFL Arrest Database
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