Is Turning from Sin Necessary for Salvation?

Brethren, it is taught by some that turning from sin is not necessary for salvation, that only believing in Christ is necessary. One of their arguments is that the word repent does not appear anywhere throughout John’s Gospel, which Gospel to them is thee Gospel that emphasizes how one can have eternal life. Yet based on that kind of logic, there is no need to believe in or warn anyone about the existence of hell since the word hell isn’t found in John’s Gospel either; and based on that logic we do not need God’s mercy since the word mercy is also not found in John’s Gospel.

I would contend that while it is true that the word repent is not found in John’s Gospel, the need to turn from sin for salvation is most certainly taught therein. For example, in John 3 when Christ reasoned with Nicodemus about his need for the new birth, the need for repentance (turning from sin) was implied. How do I know that? Well, our Lord reprimanded Nicodemus for not being acquainted with the new birth as it was taught in the Old Testament. And how was it taught in the OT? Ezekiel 36:25-27 puts it this way,

"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them."

Another example is in the case of the women caught in adultery in John 8. Did not our Lord tell her, "go and sin no more,”?

Our Lord also said in John’s Gospel that His sheep hear His voice and FOLLOW Him (Jn. 10:26-28).

And there are more examples from John’s Gospel that could be cited.

Those that deny the need for turning from sin argue that when the New Testament mentions repentance it is synonymous with belief/faith/trust in Christ and that it has absolutely nothing to do with any turning from sin. And they say that men of God like Paul Washer, Ray Comfort, A.W. Tozer, John MacArthur and others have erred in preaching that repentance involves a turning from sin and that it is necessary for salvation.

But does the New Testament really teach that repentance has nothing to do with a turning from sin? The following are examples of repentance being taught as a turning from sin:

"But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 "You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 "Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 "For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.”-Acts 8:20-23

"Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 "And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 "I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.”-Revelation 2:20-23

"But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.”-Revelation 9:20-21

The late H.A. Ironside (theologian and pastor of Chicago's Moody Church) explained this issue well in his book titled "Except Ye Repent." Ironside wrote there,

"The arrangement of the four Gospels is in perfect harmony. In the Synoptics [Matthew, Mark, and Luke] the call is to repent. In John the emphasis is laid upon believing. Some have thought that there is inconsistency or contradiction here. But we need to remember that John wrote years after the older Evangelists, and with the definite object in view of showing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that, believing, we might have life through His Name. He does not simply travel over ground already well trodden. Rather, he adds to and thus supplements the earlier records, inciting to confidence in the testimony God as given concerning His Son. He does not ignore the ministry of repentance because he stresses the importance of faith. On the contrary, he shows to repentant souls the simplicity of salvation, of receiving eternal life, through a trusting in Him who, as the true light, casts light on every man, thus making manifest humanity's fallen condition and the need of an entire change of attitude toward self and toward God (Except Ye Repent, 37-38).”

Brethren, the need to turn from sin for salvation is clearly taught throughout both Testaments. May we not allow the enemy of our souls to deceive us in this vital matter.

Blessings

The dispute may be over an issue of timing.

In order to be saved you must agree with God that your way stinks and you must surrender and decide to follow His way and you have to mean it. You must believe that Jesus is the only means to do this.

If you are truly converted you will gradually turn from sin. You may turn from some sins miraculously fast; others may take time.

What I would strongly disagree with is that you must turn from sin IN ORDER to be saved.

I don't think I have any disagreement there TMK. I would only clarify this part of your post in terms of how I see it:

What I would strongly disagree with is that you must turn from sin IN ORDER to be saved.

Todd said....If you are truly converted you will gradually turn from sin. You may turn from some sins miraculously fast; others may take time.

Just to clarify, even after one is saved through repentance and faith, one continues to repent and trust Christ as a way of life. So there is no sinless perfection being referred to by me.

Also TMK, you wrote:

The dispute may be over an issue of timing.

Some have described saving faith as a "repentant faith." I don't have a problem with that because repentance and faith are so interwoven together that sometimes it's hard to clearly delineate a clear-cut distinction between them.

The problem with making turning from sin a prerequisite for salvation is this: how much turning is required?

Oratio- what do you mean by "repent?" It may be we have a differing definition of what that term entails. I certainly agree that "repent and believe in the gospel" is required- after all Jesus said it (Mk 1:5).

The problem with making turning from sin a prerequisite for salvation is this: how much turning is required?

Oratio- what do you mean by "repent?" It may be we have a differing definition of what that term entails. I certainly agree that "repent and believe in the gospel" is required- after all Jesus said it (Mk 1:5).

But to answer your question, I think you defined what repentance is quite well in stating:

In order to be saved you must agree with God that your way stinks and you must surrender and decide to follow His way and you have to mean it. You must believe that Jesus is the only means to do this.

If you are truly converted you will gradually turn from sin. You may turn from some sins miraculously fast; others may take time.

In true repentance one is deeply sorry/broken over their sins against God to the point that they renounce and forsake any and all known sins in their life as they turn to Christ; At first one may not know that certain things are sins but nevertheless one determines to forsake what one clearly knows to be sin. Afterward, God gives us more light and we continue to forsake our evil ways by God's grace as we grow spiritually.

The tax collector in Luke 18 comes to mind as a picture of a true penitent.

Proverbs 28:13 says, "He who covers his sins will not prosper, but whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy."

In Ezekiel 18:30 God says, "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin."

Isaiah 55:7 says, "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon."

I'd also point out the verses I shared from the New Testament in the OP, verses which clearly show that repentance involves a turning from sin, whether it be murder, fornication, idolatry, etc.

Is turning from Sin required for Salvation?

Salvation itself is to be saved from Sin (Matt 1:20). But sadly many (99.999...%) CHristians think that salvation is to be saved from Hell. There is no Biblical proof of it. If salvation itself is to be saved from Sin then how can turning from Sin not be essential to salvation? Because of false understanding of salvation, they have false understanding of Sin.

Acts 2:38- Peter said to them, "REPENT, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

Without repentance there is no belief.

Which one of you will marry a person who is still living in Adultery with another person? You expect your spouse to leave the adultery relationship before they enter in an relationship with you. How do you think God who is almighty one, will accept you as a bride when you are still in adultery with the world?

Hi Oracio,

It's a great question, and I believe this is one of the most urgent issues which needs to be resolved by the Christian community. The entire gospel hinges on it - we must get it right. I'll say from the outset that I appreciate TMK's post.

We know that the word "repentance" is tied to believing the gospel. This was the core message of Jesus' ministry, summarized in Mark 1:15 - "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

So what does "repentance" mean, and what should we repent from? Does it merely mean "turning from sins", as assumed in the thread's title? If so, in which new direction should we to turn to?

Note that in Hebrews 6:1-2, where the fundamental, basic principles of the Christian faith are listed - the phrase used is "repentance from dead works and of faith toward God". It is not "repentance from sins", but a repentance which encompasses repenting from "good works" which were really "dead works".

Suppose that "repentance" means "forsaking all your sins" (which I do not believe is the biblical meaning). Let me provoke you with some questions:

1. Have you sinned recently? Have you lusted? Exhibited self-righteousness? Experienced spiritual pride? Been unloving towards others? (sins which are not uncommon on this forum...)

2. If the answer is yes, then that shows you have failed to forsake your sins. Whatever your intentions, you have failed to "repent" (going by that spurious definition).

3. As you have not "repented" of your sins, you are not saved.

4. Given another year, do you think you would be able to forsake those sins listed in the first question - and thus finally "repenting"?

5. If one year is not sufficient, how many years do you think it will take for you to clean yourself up, to finally "repent" and qualify for God's salvation?

Do you see where this line of logic is going?

What do you think?

This testimony, which belongs to Eli Brayley, is a beautiful illustration of (i) the biblical meaning of repentance; v.s. (ii) "stop sinning" / "forsake all your sins":

http://www.timothyministry.com/2010/05/about-eli.html

I encourage everyone to read it (if short on time, read the sections "Zeal Without Knowledge" and "Peace with God"). God did a great work in his life.

At what point does the HS enter a person? I would think that it must happen before a person stops sinning, otherwise sinning will not stop.

At what point does the HS enter a person? I would think that it must happen before a person stops sinning, otherwise sinning will not stop.

This implies that it is not possible to obey God before receiving the Holy Spirit.

The Bible states the requirements for receiving God's Spirit: "Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 2:38). So we have two basic requirements to receive His Spirit: 1) repentance and 2) faith in the sacrifice of Christ. (Baptism is an outward confession of this faith in Christ's sacrifice.)

What is repentance? Repentance is a deep and genuine feeling of remorse over having committed sins against God. It is accompanied by an urgent desire to make the necessary changes in our life so we avoid committing the same sins again. A truly repentant person will immediately begin striving to obey God. Upon seeing repentance and faith God gives the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,

Ron I agree with your definition of repentance. That is why it is not necessary to ACTUALLY STOP sinning before being saved. Those that believed Peters sermon were baptized that very day. There was no time for them to stop all their sinning before that. What changed was their mind and heart.

Todd, it seems you and a few others here may be misunderstanding what I mean by "turning from sin." I do not mean a mere outward turning from sin. Biblical repentance begins as an inward turning, a change of mind and heart regarding God, sin and self. And it results in, and is manifested by an outward transformation of conduct. The thief on the cross did not get a chance to manifest his repentance much outwardly (only a small bit). But had he lived longer it would have been inevitable and evident in his conduct. And again, it's not about sinless perfectionism.

O- I agree 100% with what you wrote.

Good to hear we agree Todd.

yuehan, you wrote

Note that in Hebrews 6:1-2, where the fundamental, basic principles of the Christian faith are listed - the phrase used is "repentance from dead works and of faith toward God". It is not "repentance from sins", but a repentance which encompasses repenting from "good works" which were really "dead works".

Methodist theologian Adam Clarke said the repentance from "dead works" there likely refers to repentance from sin as it was experienced under the Levitical law, based on the context of Hebrews; Matthew Henry's Commentary says it refers to repentance from sins of all sorts in general, to conversion/regeneration.

And what do you do with all the verses I shared that clearly show repentance to involve turning from other types of sins as well (i.e. murder, fornication, theft, blasphemy, idolatry, etc.), not just the sin/s of self-righteousness or "good/dead works" as you put it?

I agree that self-righeousness (trusting in one's own "morality" or works) must be repented of, but again, Scripture is clear that that's not the only sin one must repent of.

There are many who have been taught just that, that the only sin they need to repent of is self-righteousness or trusting in their morality. And many of those being taught that say, "Oh, you mean I don't really have to worry about turning from my adultery and fornication, or from my drunkenness and wild parties? You mean all I have to do is believe that Jesus died for my sins and rose on the third day and confess that truth with my mouth and I'm in? Cool, sign me up, I can handle that."

Yet according to Christ, the Biblical Gospel says you must deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Him in the straight and narrow.

We must accept the whole counsel of God's Word in terms of its clear teachings.

Suppose that "repentance" means "forsaking all your sins" (which I do not believe is the biblical meaning). Let me provoke you with some questions:

1. Have you sinned recently? Have you lusted? Exhibited self-righteousness? Experienced spiritual pride? Been unloving towards others? (sins which are not uncommon on this forum...)

2. If the answer is yes, then that shows you have failed to forsake your sins. Whatever your intentions, you have failed to "repent" (going by that spurious definition).

3. As you have not "repented" of your sins, you are not saved.

4. Given another year, do you think you would be able to forsake those sins listed in the first question - and thus finally "repenting"?

5. If one year is not sufficient, how many years do you think it will take for you to clean yourself up, to finally "repent" and qualify for God's salvation?

Do you see where this line of logic is going?

What do you think?

Hebrews 12:14-16 exhorts and warns,

"Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright."

Yes, in the Christian walk there's a struggle and battle to overcome temptation and sin and we're not perfect this side of heaven. But if you're comfortable in your sins and have given up the fight against it, you should be afraid and should examine yourself to see if you're in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).

For over 1,900 years Jesus has been our intercessor seated at God's right hand, and the sole mediator between God and sinners seeking mercy.

Oration,
I came across this the other day,...talks about 'What has the Lord saved / salvation, us from ?'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yi6goNc4Wo&feature=share
(All to Jesus)

Repentance means a turning around,... we were going in the direction of self / the flesh,..the 'My will',...But now we are to seek His will,His judgements, in matters.

My experience was ,at the very start,when The Lord, at the very beginning of His drawing me (Grace), He began THEN to show me things in my life that I must leave off. ( change / regeneration ) ,.....( unclothe, that we may be clothed upon,with instructions unto His righteousness)

Have we attained unto that 'HIGH CALLING' yet? .... 'Forgetting those things that are behind, and reaching for the things that be of God,.. through being filled w/His Spirit ,and led by His Spirit .

Repentance is a continual thing,...Through His Blood He initially saved us,....it is a continual turning from our will unto His , a cross,...a dying daily.

Rom3:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, AT THIS TIME his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth IN Jesus....( IN JESUS)

.....IN HIM,we live and move and have our being...

- a hard saying...

Bless us all w/ more of your Grace, O' Lord,

Grace: 'The Devine effluence upon the heart, and it's reflection in the life.'
(The help that we need to obey)
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elizabeth

Amen to your post Elibeth. Powerful video, thanks for sharing.
Sree, Ron and Evangeline, amen to your posts also.

I'll flag up this audio sermon, which comprehensively explores the definition of repentance in the Bible:

https://www.mixcloud.com/AllSaintsLogan/eli-brayley-02-28-16-repent-matthew-31-2-417/

A large part of the sermon is focused on the meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek words, which are "shuv"/"teshuva" (to turn) and "metanoia" (change of mind) respectively. It also discusses how these words are used in various contexts in the Old and New Testaments, as well as a brief history of how these words were translated into our languages today.

There's also discussion about how "repentance" is understood in other religions. Very provocative, and prompts us to consider if the concept of repentance in Christianity is the same as in other religions.

(Oracio - I'll take time out to address your post later)

The book of Jude is very instructive in this matter of defending the doctrine of biblical repentance. The main theme in that short epistle is an exhortation to earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3). Verse 4 warns us to watch out for false teachers "who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.” And then Jude goes on to describe what type of lifestyle these false teachers (and those who follow their lead) are characterized by (i.e. unbelief (v.5), sexual immorality (v.6), rejecting authority and religious pride (vv.8-10), greed (v.11)).

But notice that Jude says these false teachers "turn the grace of our God into lewdness.” The Greek word for "lewdness” can also be translated, "unbridled lust, excess, licentiousness, lasciviousness, wantonness, shamelessness, insolence.” In other words, they teach that the grace of God gives one a license to sin; they teach that there is no need to repent of or turn from our wicked ways because, "after all,” they say, "the grace of God covers it all, as long as you just believe.”

Don’t we see that kind of false teaching prevalent in some circles within Christendom today? May the Lord protect His true children from falling prey to such teaching.

Hi yuehan, like me, it seems your mind is pretty much made up on this issue. So I'm not sure if anything constructive will be accomplished by us continually corresponding or debating in this thread. If you are sincerely open to changing your viewpoint on this and have sincere questions, let me know. Otherwise I can't promise a continued correspondence here between you and I.

I think I've sufficiently presented and sought to explain and defend my view from Scripture here.

I'm cool with that, Oracio. But I want to make some final points:

1. I like this definition of repentance shared by RobertW on this forum before: "Repentance is a change of mind, which results in a change in a direction".

2. Any definition of repentance has to keep in mind this truth: it is only until people have an encounter with Jesus that they have the power to stop sinning.

The parable of the woman caught in adultery - note that she first receives the gift of no condemnation from Jesus. It is this grace which empowers her to sin no more.

3. The greatest sin which we need to repent of is unbelief in God. Other sins such as adultery, fornication, pride, etc - these are fruits of unbelief in God.

4. Likewise, let us not underestimate the change which comes with believing in God. Once the key sin of unbelief in God is resolved, all other sins will resolve naturally.

5. The gospel is simple: sinners should be free to come to Jesus as they are, and He cleans them up. He dresses them in new robes, and gives them a new heart and a new mind.

The gospel is not about what we have to do (e.g. show remorse, hate our sins, etc.). It is about what Jesus has done!!

Whatever our theology or definitions, we must never hinder the sinner to come to Jesus by attaching "extra conditions". That would be different to the gospel found in the New Testament.

The grace of God is unmerited. And the only thing we can do is to just believe - open our hearts to receive this unmerited gift of God. Can you believe that God is that loving and gracious? If you do, receiving that love cannot leave you unchanged.

yeuhan,
Considering what you said here,..
"The gospel is not about what we have to do (e.g. show remorse, hate our sins, etc.). It is about what Jesus has done!!"

I may not be understanding you quite right,..but ...

We know that we did not / do not deserve what Jesus has done for us / the whole world.But through His Blood,there is a Way that has been made for us into His kingdom,..when we are born again of His Spirit.

His Grace is surely a gift,..we did not know of it until it was coming upon us,...to turn us from darkness to light....a drawing of us to God.

When we have Jesus,./ His Spirit / The Holy Spirit,...we have God, who is The Spirit / Word,....the kingdom of God with-in, ..that the Word says,that it is The Father' good pleasure to give it to us.

He comes in,by Way, of The Holy Spirit,to do a work in us....Remember Jesus saying that it was The Father that did the works.

NO,NO, IT IS NOT THE LAW !
It is not in reading the law and trying to do it !,..

But it is The being 'filled with the Spirit, and being led by His Spirit'

Please look this up:
Jesus expressed over and over again, 'The gospel is the gospel of the kingdom'
...It is a place in God, ..(Who is The Word / Spirit, ) where He rules and is Lord, through The Spirit.

Grace is unmerited favor,...we none deserved this Grace,
* Grace: "This Devine influence upon the heart,and it's reflection in the life."

This drawing,..the strength / help-that we none deserved,..and that it is impossible to live for Him without this Grace....'The Spirit of Grace'

Remember when Paul was asking for help in something he was going through,.. The Lord said, "My Grace is sufficient for thee"
-----------------
elizabeth

A few more Scriptures of interest:

Paul is speaking to king Agrippa,..saying,The Lord is sending him unto the Gentiles

18 To OPEN their EYES, and to TURN THEM FORM DARKNESS UNTO LIGHT, AND FROM THE POWER OF SATAN, UNTO GOD,that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

19 ¶ Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should REPENT AND TURN TO GOD, and do works meet for repentance.

Paul speaking, (Acts 14:15,16)

...that ye should TURN from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

Acts17:29,30,31,
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; 'BUT NOW' COMMANDETH ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT.
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

-----------------
elizabeth

*edited:
Just think about it,.. Paul says 'TURN TO GOD'
and,
"In the beginning was The Word,and The Word was with God and The WORD was God. "

The good gospel preacher/witness will include repentance from sin as a necessary component of becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ. A good gospel preacher/witness will recognize not everyone comes to Christ with the same information. Some come to Christ based solely on Jesus love and kindness toward them. When those who come to Christ do so by reason of genuine conversion the Holy Spirit leads them immediately toward repentance of sins. When the brand new-convert sees the lives of other believers and how they have turned from sins toward the living God and this turning differentiates them from the ungodly they have a two-fold witness. The threefold witness must include biblical instruction and is found everywhere in scripture.
The Spirit, the Church, and the Word all witness the necessity and importance of repentance.
When a convert is found deficient because of a poor witness from the Church or no biblical instruction ( or no bible at all) that convert is still under conviction of sin because of the Spirit who witnesses to them their own sins...God's judgment of sin and God's love of righteousness in our lives. The answer for this kind of convert is godliness in his fellow Christians and biblical instructions given from knowledgeable Christians.
If one encounters a believer who has no conviction of sins at all ( differentiated from merely being fearful of punishment for wrong-doing) this is no convert, this is a person who has taken the name of Christian but Christ has not taken him. He/she has not been redeemed.
Our American churches have been negligent in giving gospel truth whereby repentance is not only ignored but repentance in fellow believers is absent. The so-called believer, in this case, has no Holy Spirit witness, no witness from the Church and no biblical instruction given.
There is no such thing as a true convert to Christianity that does not have Holy Spirit conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment. He may be deficient in Christian witness or access to a bible and its teachings but he personally will not be deficient if God indwells him.
What I have experienced with both teens and adults in American Churches are people who have listened to sermons or joined groups or heard youth leaders speak and their motivations were centered on following Christians for loaves and fishes, or for acceptance from a boy or girl they liked or for parents sake or for their own personal gain in some way. But as John teaches us...Joh 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
Joh 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them because he knew all men,
Joh 2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Seeing of miracles, promises of God to bless or heal, promises of God to deliver and save, motivate people to believe...but Jesus did not commit himself to them. Today, Jesus does not commit himself to them.
One example of such a believer is Nicodemus who came to Jesus, acknowledged his miracles but when Jesus addressed him he told Nicodemus he must be born again. This is the case for every spurious convert.
In fact when looked upon as a whole...the Whole of John Chpt 3 is addressing the person who believes and yet...does not come to him for his deeds are evil and the light of God's conviction exposes their deeds as evil and therefore they are evil.
John Chpt 5 and 6 also address this same kind of person who in the form of the Pharisees saw, believed...and yet didn't see and didn't believe...and those who followed by reason of loaves and fishes saw, believed and yet didn't come to Christ for Jesus himself but what Jesus could provide.
The necessary and God-given contingency for every truly born-again person is the work of the Spirit of God to regenerate their heart whereby their conversion follows suit.
When all you are is a follower of Jesus by the will of man...or a follower of Christians by the will of the flesh you are unable to obey the commands of God, incapable of loving God for God's own sake, without the power to take up the cross and follow Jesus forsaking all others.

Marvin,
Read this twice,just to let it sink in,...
....agree and appreciate this.

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elizabeth

yuehan, just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that you're not welcome to continue sharing in this thread or corresponding with SI members here as far as I'm concerned. By all means, please feel free if you're led. My concern was a continued dialogue and debate specifically between you and I, seeing that we were not seeing eye to eye at all. And in retrospect I think I was too impatient in that regard, for which I apologize. I noticed that you and Fletcher have been having a very cordial dialogue in another thread despite some disagreements between you two, and I was convicted for my lack of patience here. So I'm open to continue participating here and corresponding with you if you'd like. God bless.

ӢӢӢThe gospel is not about what we have to do (e.g. show remorse, hate our sins, etc.). It is about what Jesus has done!!ӢӢӢ

I agree. Jesus responds in John 6,

ӢӢӢ Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

...John 6:28-29

And again in Acts Paul writes,

ӢӢӢ and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."...Acts 16:30-31ӢӢӢ

In Ronans 10:8-9 Paul says,

ӢӢӢ that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation...Romans 10;8-9 ӢӢӢ

And Paul writes in 1 Corithians,

ӢӢӢ But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."...1 Vorithians 1:30-31ӢӢӢ

Bottom line. Jesus has accomplished our salvation. Our response is to believe and trust in Him. Then the Spirit begins to work within us that we turn away from our sins and walking with Him by faith.

As somebody said before you can clean the fish you have to catch the fish.

Blaine

From Genesis to Revelation we see God through the Prophets, through the Lord Jesus, through the Apostles and Disciples calling all people to repent of their sins and trust in Him for salvation.

Again, what do we do with all those scriptures that clearly teach repentance as being necessary? Do we simply ignore them and pretend like they don't exist?

While it does seem to me from Scripture that repentance and faith occur at the same time in conversion, I do find it interesting that, as far as I remember seeing in Scripture, when both repentance and faith are mentioned together, repentance is mentioned before faith (e.g. Mk. 1:15; Acts 20:21; Acts 26:20). So if we're going to say that one must "logically" come before the other, we'd be safer to say that repentance comes before faith according to the scriptures.

Was listening to a Ravenhill sermon today and this quote stood out:

"You know, we’re preaching an acceptable gospel today; make it as painless as we can. And all we do is give people a shot to put them to sleep so they’ll get to hell quicker. We need some hell-fire preaching on repentance. One old definition says repentance is to leave the sin I’ve done before, and show that I in earnest grieve by doing it no more…If any man, anywhere, at any time be in Christ, he may be the most twisted, carnal, perverted, cruel, stinking man in the whole world, but if the miracle of regeneration comes in then he gets a new heart, a new mind, a new spirit, a new in-look, a new outlook, a new everything. We’ve forgotten about the majesty of the new birth. People just nod their head and say the sinner’s prayer and go straight to hell down the aisle after they’ve leaned their head on the shoulder of the pastor. You know I’d doubt if five percent of professing Christians in America are born again.”

Brother Ravenhill wasn’t afraid to tell it like it is.

Quote taken from this message: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=230&commentView=itemComments

Thanks Elibeth it's a joy to share my faith and a double joy that others see what I see.

I very much appreciate and can relate your words to my own understanding and experience-

While you and I most likey differ on doctrine, we find fellowship in the Lordship of Christ:)

Blessings to you ~

Bottom line. Jesus has accomplished our salvation. Our response is to believe and trust in Him. Then the Spirit begins to work within us that we turn away from our sins and walking with Him by faith.

I am totally against those who preach this FINISHED work. I do not find it in Bible at all. There is not a single place where the Bible says the work is already finished and we do not need to work. Instead it says the opposite. For example we are asked to workout our salvation. If the work is finished then what is the reason for Workout? James says faith without work is dead.

The greatest problem I have with those who believe in this unbiblical account of FINISHED WORK is, they reduce the importance of repentance, both at the beginning and daily. This post is a classic example of erroneous beliefs based on erroneous finished work!

It is true that we are in Christ because of what Christ has done for us. What Christ did for us is to pay the price for the penalty of our sins. But salvation does not end with taking away the Penalty. Salvation is lot more than that.

Romans 5:10 is a clear scripture against the Finished work errors - For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved [f]by His life.

So there is more to salvation by the Life of Christ. It does not end with the death and resurrection of Christ. God is willing to save us more by the life of Christ.

Imagine you were imprisoned for a crime committed by you. Someone comes and takes that punishment on themselves. Now if you truly believed that the other person has taken your punishment then why would you ever stay in the Prison? If you still remain imprisoned then it means you do not believe in the price paid by the other person. Same way if someone truly believes that Jesus has paid the penalty for their sins, they why would they not repent from those sins? The fact that they have not repented proves they did NOT believe. Repentance and belief God has united together. NO MAN HAS ANY RIGHT TO SEPARATE THEM. What God has united let no man separate.

Sree: Your post seems to conflate a few teachings, namely justification and sanctification. As it stands your post is confusing and for the sake of the newly converted, I'll ask you to clarify your disdain for the "finished work" and "our work" so specific questions can be asked.

Fletcher: Praise the Lord then we are brothers in arms fighting the same devil and going to the same glorious home with Jesus.

Marvin, by Finished work, I mean the teaching that says our salvation is already Finished by what Jesus did. This is a lie. What Jesus did for us is for our Justification. But salvation does not end with Justification. Salvation starts with Justification and then proceeds with Sanctification and ends with Glorification.

I hope the Illustration I used here is clear enough to prove that Belief and Repentance cannot be separated.

Imagine you were imprisoned for a crime committed by you. Someone comes and takes that punishment on themselves. Now if you truly believed that the other person has taken your punishment then why would you ever stay in the Prison? If you still remain imprisoned then it means you do not believe in the price paid by the other person. Same way if someone truly believes that Jesus has paid the penalty for their sins, they why would they not repent from those sins? The fact that they have not repented proves they did NOT believe. Repentance and belief God has united together. NO MAN HAS ANY RIGHT TO SEPARATE THEM. What God has united let no man separate.

When Jesus said, "IT IS FINISHED"
-- His work that He had come to do ,was finished.

He came to make A Way for us through His Precious Blood,..
Isn't that what He came to do ?

But His teachings, / the writings of His Ways and how we are to live,
Hear / obey,..instructions pertaining to His kingdom continued for all that will hear His voice,through The Spirit and obey .
🍞
❤️
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elizabeth

Hello Sree:

A couple of things.
Jesus finished work as declared and described in scripture deals with the atonement of Christ whereby that atonement done only by him for his people secures a justified standing in the sight of God. Our justification renders us perfectly suited to begin the life of a "new creation in Christ". This is no lie.
So, it must be as I understand Jesus atonement his finished work on the cross that secures the necessary reconciliation of ourselves to God. This reconciliation is not secured by any other means or works done by his saints.
Our sanctification is the outworking of what Christ's finished work on the cross secured for me. So, I live by faith in Jesus Christ empowered by his Spirit dwelling within me.
It is important to note, Jesus Christ did finish the work of atonement for sins, he will not die again, sacrifice himself again, it is explicitly declared he refuses our sacrifices as any kind of atoning work.
Correct me if I'm wrong. You seem to be saying the finished work of our salvation is not completed until we have run our race, finished our course, lived out the faith given to us and born fruit unto God for his glory. Then our glorification or the reward of our life given in love and honoring Jesus Christ...that shows Christ's finished work.
Other than some articulation issues, we seem to be on the same page.

Amen Marvin,

Christ has been made unto us by God the Father, Christ in us the new creation, Made to be wisdom, not mine; righteousness, not mine; Sanctification, not mine: and redemption, of which I can do nothing to be redeemed.
1Cor 1:30 The redemption is Christ' finished work on the Cross; It Is Finished Period. I myself can not finish any of the attributes of The Work Jesus did on the Cross.

It is by His works in us that we are sanctified, redeemed, become righteous and by His wisdom in us, by which we know the truth.

Whose works? "The mystery" Why was Paul given the answer to this mystery? To fulfill the Word of God. The fulfillment of the finished work of Christ on the Cross, His work and His work alone, none of mine. Christ is my "wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and my redemption, plus nothing.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. His work in us is the only work that will be presented to Himself, His Bride the Body of Christ His Church, His Bride without spot or wrinkle. His works in us are the only works that are presentable to God our Father, He is our propitiation to the Father. Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. He is coming for His Bride.

Ephesians 5:27-33 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. (Does Christ Love Himself as the Father loves the Son) For no man For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

We are His Bride now and will be taken to His Fathers house, the wife of God The Son, then the wedding supper of the Lamb. Amen. Husband and Wife become one flesh. We become one in Christ; For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. I might add His Spirit also.

In Christ: Phillip

SINS are the symptoms. SIN certainly can be repented of. That sin of 'going my own way!' That root of sin must die. Paul said " What would you have me to do, Lord"

Heart Repentance, Brokenness and Forsaking the sin of 'my way NOT thine'. Repentance toward God the Father. Faith in the finished work of God the Son. Receive God the Holy Spirit to dwell within to live His life through us.

Pastor Reidhead in his message Satanic Strategy concludes with these statements: Satan has deceived the Church. He will say: 1 Its not necessary for you to die to your sins.
2 Not necessary you come to the Cross.
3.Believe, just believe.

The Church is made on the grounds of the cross. Christ not only died FOR the sinner but WE take our place on the Cross. The Cross is not only FOR but IN the sinner.
I identify with Christ on Cross and unite with Him on the Cross.

If Satan can keep the Church an organization instead of an organism the Church is made impotent and powerless.
eileen

Amen SugarRun/Eileen!

SugarRun wrote

SINS are the symptoms. SIN certainly can be repented of. That sin of 'going my own way!' That root of sin must die. Paul said " What would you have me to do, Lord"

Genuine repentance unto salvation has been compared to a subject giving up his rebellion against his king and the king’s kingdom. A king may offer terms of peace to a certain rebel in his kingdom. But if that rebel refuses to lay down his rebellion against the king and his kingdom, how can there be reconciliation between the two? And it’s the same with God. How can God be reconciled to an open rebel against Him and his kingdom. It’s impossible. Repentance unto salvation is a waving of the white flag of sweet surrender to the Lord Jesus Christ. If we are not willing to take Christ as our Lord He will not be our Savior.

1 Corinthians 15:1-11 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

Why do we make the simple Gospel different than what it is?

l. Jesus died for our sins

2. He was buried

3, Jesus rose from the dead on the 3rd day.

Then begins the Grace of God in Christ Jesus, which Paul says were not his works, but the Grace of God with him.

How could Paul do so much for the Body of Christ, His Church? Not Pauls works but the Grace of God. This is true and complete repentance.

Why?

27: "which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"

Colossians 1:28-29 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

What worketh in us? His working, which worketh in us mightily".

If anyone asks what is the Gospel of our salvation? It is simple 1 2 3. Plus nothing.

1 Corinthians 15:11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. Again; Repentance.

Then comes wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. 1 Cor 1:30

We all cannot accomplish anything in our works, but everything in His. Again Repentance

Then our labour and faith are not in vain. The results of repentance;

In Christ: Phillip

There is one sin that needs repented of;

John 16:7-9 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;

That sin is "they believe not on Me" which if you believe what God has said about His Son, Repentance has already come which God has granted. 2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

I believe on Him. My repentance is complete unto salvation in Christ Jesus, by Gods granting and giving repentance. A work that I can't boast of.

In Christ: Phillip

Oracio wrote:
"Genuine repentance unto salvation has been compared to a subject giving up his rebellion against his king and the king’s kingdom. A king may offer terms of peace to a certain rebel in his kingdom. But if that rebel refuses to lay down his rebellion against the king and his kingdom, how can there be reconciliation between the two? And it’s the same with God. How can God be reconciled to an open rebel against Him and his kingdom. It’s impossible. Repentance unto salvation is a waving of the white flag of sweet surrender to the Lord Jesus Christ. If we are not willing to take Christ as our Lord He will not be our Savior."
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This is a very good presentation of the truth of saving faith Oracio.

When folk say 'we just have to believe', we need to understand what 'believe' means. It is not just some mental acceptance of facts. It means to trust and rely on the truth of who Christ is and what He has done. This effects the very core of our life and how we then live.
So the 'Gospel' (i.e good news) is 1. Christ died for our sins, 2. He was buried, 3. He rose again, but this is what He did, but we then have to understand what that all means and our response to those facts is what brings us into salvation in Christ or excludes us from it.

Amen Dave.

I have a question for our consideration. What would you say to someone who says they’ve accepted and believe in Jesus as their Savior; they say they believe He died on the cross for their sins, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day, yet the following describes their lifestyle:

They make a habit of shoplifting and have no conviction about needing to turn from that even after being confronted regarding that sin;
they go to night clubs every weekend and get high on cocaine and methamphetamine, get drunk, and fornicate with multiple partners, also with no conviction about forsaking those things;
they curse like a sailor, again, with no conviction to clean up their language.

Again, they say they’ve accepted the Lord and believe in Him and love Him. When a Christian tells them that they need to forsake those evil ways they say that only God can judge them, and say that He is not that concerned with their lifestyle because His grace covers it all as long as one accepts Him into their hearts and believes in Him as their Savior.

From my experience, the above describes many people in the US because that’s what they’ve heard taught across this nation.

If you believe that turning from sin is not necessary for salvation, what would you say to a person like that? Would you embrace them as a brother or sister in Christ? If not, what would you tell them since you can’t tell them they need to turn from their wicked ways because you don't believe it's necessary for salvation?

Phillip, I'm sincerely interested in knowing your answer to that question. Would you embrace such a person as a brother or sister in Christ?

Would you see them as saved but in need of spiritual growth and discipleship?

If you could not embrace them as a saved brother or sister in Christ, what would you tell them they need to do to be saved? Keep in mind that they’d say they’ve already repented of the sin of unbelief; keep in mind that they’d say they’ve accepted the Lord and placed their trust in His death, burial and resurrection.

Hi Oracio: That is a loaded question. If "If" they are one of the Shepherds children, I am not going to interfere in His plan for them. I don't know their hearts and it is not for me to judge them by outward appearances. The Great Shepherd of the sheep maybe will let them get caught in the thickets as He is watching over them all the time, He may let them go so far that they begin to scream for help, then when He takes them back into the fold, they have learned exactly what the Shepherd want them to learn, that their lives must and will with His help come into the life of Christ he has prepared for them.

If He has prepared them and asks me to intervene I will not run away because of their outward garments they are wearing.
He will have prepared me to give them what He wants me to say or do. Most likely they would ask a question God has prepared them to ask and me to answer. What is my job?
Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
So if He wants me to work in their lives, I will strive to do so by His working in me mightily on their behalf. I must always being praying for them according to what God gives me to pray for them.

I don't want to be a hindrance to them by interfering with what God is doing in their lives, and He would grant them repentance and bring their live in line with His Son Jesus Christ If he has birthed in them His Son Jesus Christ who now new life in them and He will show them that they are a new creature in Christ. I may have to show them by the Word of God but that is the Holy Spirits work in me for them. Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Faith, Pistis They must come to the faith of the Son of God that the life in the flesh they live is by His Faith in them.

In Christ: Phillip

Hey Phillip, I appreciate you taking the time to reply. I’d like to reply to your post, but I will not ask you to reply back this time unless you are led to do so, because I don’t want to give the impression that I’m pressuring you to get into a long drawn out debate here with me. I'll share some things and ask some questions mainly for yours and others consideration.

You wrote:

I don't know their hearts and it is not for me to judge them by outward appearances.

"I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner””not even to eat with such a person.”-1 Corinthians 5:9-11

Does not that passage teach us that Christ calls us to make judgments according to certain outward appearances of those who claim to be a Christian? Christ tells us in Matthew 7:16 that we will know them by their fruits.

In Matthew 18:17 Christ commands us to treat unrepentant professing Christians as heathen and tax collectors, in other words, as lost sinners in need of salvation.

I’d also encourage you to consider the following five passages of Scripture:

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”-1 Corinthians 6:9-10

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”-Galatians 5:19-21

"For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”-Ephesians 5:5-6

"And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”-Revelation 21:6-8

"Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.”-Revelation 22:14-15

There are some that teach that 1 Cor.6:9-10, Gal. 5:19-21 and Eph. 5:5-6 are referring to not inheriting some position in a future millennial kingdom, that those passages are not referring to being barred from heaven. Yet Rev. 21:8 clearly says that those who practice sin will be cast into the lake of fire and Rev. 22:14-15 says they’ll be barred from heaven, not from a supposed position in a millennial kingdom.

And the Ephesians 5 passage says that because of those kinds of sins God’s wrath comes upon the disobedient. We are warned there not to let anyone deceive us with empty words. In other words, those who teach what is sometimes termed "Hyper Grace,” "Cheap Grace” or "Easy Believism” only spew out empty or vain rhetoric that comes to nothing in the end. We are commanded not to give any heed to that teaching. That teaching is harmful to souls.

In 2 Corinthians 13:5 God says through the Apostle Paul, "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?””unless indeed you are disqualified.”

God calls us to examine ourselves to make sure that Christ, the hope of glory, is indeed in us. In 2 Peter 1:10 Christ through the Apostle Peter exhorts us to make our calling and election sure.

In Matthew 7:21-23 Christ warns that not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. He warns that on Judgment Day He will declare to many who call Him Lord, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!”

Notice that a key characteristic of those who will be barred from heaven despite calling Christ their Lord is that they "practiced lawlessness.” In other words, as Paul Washer has said, they lived their lives as though God never gave them a law to obey.

Hebrews 5:9 tells us that Christ "became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”

So God’s Word is clear all throughout that if there is no repentance of sin (not just the sin of unbelief) and no obedience to Christ’s commands, there is no salvation regardless of one's claim to believe in Christ as their Savior.

So I recently checked out a YouTube video which included clips of Steven Anderson whom I'm sure some here are familiar with. The video was seeking to refute the idea of defining repentance as a turning from sin. At the end of the video, the guy who put the video together provided a list of preachers whom he deemed as false teachers who’ve preached a false gospel because they’ve preached that repentance is a turning from sin and that it’s necessary for salvation. Here’s the list of preachers he provided:

Todd Friel
Ray Comfort
Tim Conway
James White
John MacArthur
David Wilkerson
David Cloud
Francis Chan
Billy Sunday
Leonard Ravenhill
R.C. Sproul
Billy Graham
Paul Washer
John Piper
Charles Spurgeon
John Calvin
Charles Finney
Jonathan Edwards
Martin Luther

I think it’s telling that this person considers all those preachers as false teachers. I think many of us can discern that one has to be off to see things that way.

Hi Oracio-again:

You have just given as much Law as Moses. I guarantee I have broken at least one of them. I believe in Jesus.
So now what? Is there a chance for me?

Where do I run? Romans 9:16-19 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

I must beg for mercy every day and by faith depend on Jesus Christ for my salvation, not whether I will not to sin or run from sin but in sin beg for the righteous of Christ in me.

1 Corinthians 1:28-31 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I have no glory or righteousness, even if I could keep the Law perfect, I would still need Jesus for my wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.

Not of me, but of Him am I saved? I believe He is my chance, my only chance.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Philip. You wrote,

"I believe in Jesus. So now what? Is there a chance for me?"

It depends on what kind of "belief" you have in Him, as I'm sure you're familiar with James 2 which says even demons believe and tremble and that there's a dead kind of faith that does not save. Since I don't know you well enough I'll leave that between you and the Lord.

As to the scriptures you shared dealing with Christ being our righteousness, I affirm that truth 100%. And I believe that that truth reconciles with all the scriptures I've shared which deal with our need to repent of our sins and believe upon Christ for salvation. And if you'd like I'd have no problem endeavoring to explain how those truths in God's Word are reconciled.

My question to you would be, are you confident that your position reconciles with the scriptures I shared in my last reply to you? Because if you're trusting in a position that contradicts those scriptures and you've not heeded the truth of those scriptures in terms of your need to repent of your sins, indeed you should be afraid.

In the Sermon on the Mount, our Lord warned that those who hear his Word and do not obey it are like one who builds his house on sand, whose fall and destruction will be great on Judgment Day.

Yes

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Why is God faithful and just to forgive and cleanse.

Certainly not because of my repentance, which is nothing without The Cross being the focal point, which If I repent, God has granted it in me by the Christ that has been born again in me.

I don't need to argue with you about my salvation, for the witness is in me of Christ being my wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Who is my witness? Not man but God, the Three in One, that which is in me.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

So what record do we have that we are born of God?

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

AS I Said before, "I believe in Jesus Christ", He is the Son of God.

My repentance does cleanse me, it is given me by God, if I confess sin and even confession, Godly influence on my soul leads to my Godly confession and repentance.

Do you still sin? Do you believe that confession leads to forgiveness and cleansing? Is confession of sin the same as repentance?

I know I have eternal life. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

This does not make my repentance dependent for my salvation, but my proof of God granting me repentance which is something He does not me.

This is how we present every man perfect in Christ.

Colossians 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Ephesians 2:7-9 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This is my repentance.

Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

By which I receive glory from only ONE. The glory of His Son in me.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

I see no repentance here. I do see myself going on to perfection in Christ Jesus who lives in me and is now my life.

Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

No repentance of dead works for me but Life in Christ Jesus of I am.

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Where does repentance come from? The Law of which I am no longer to lay its foundation but go on into perfection.

Turning from sin is the results of salvation not the prerequisite for it.

In Christ: Phillip

Christ has been born again in you? Where is that in the Bible? He is formed in us, not born again in us. Just sayin, let's stick with biblical terminology. I don't think you want to be likened to Word of Faith preachers who teach that Christ had to be born again.

It sounds a lot like you're coming at this from a Calvinistic perspective, which doctrinal viewpoint I don't really wanna get into here. Whether you believe man can choose to repent, or believe God grants/causes it by a sovereign act is not the issue here.

The issue is whether there can be salvation without repentance/turning from sin. The Bible is clear that it's impossible.

Towards confession, it's an aspect of repentance. Repentance includes confession and confession includes repentance (you can't have one without the other). A mere verbal confession is not a true confession of sin. For a confession to be genuine there must be true contrition.

You asked if I still sin. Of course, who doesn't? That's not the issue, and I've made that clear in this thread. The issue is, have you truly repented of your sins and trusted in Christ as your Lord and Savior? Have you truly been born again? I ask that in general for all who read this.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word (Logos) of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

What is corruptible seed? The seed by which I was conceived and brought into this world, Physical seed of man.

What is incorruptible seed? The Seed the Holy Spirit conceived sent by the Father in Mary and brought forth the Son of God, by the Holy Seed of the Father.

So I am born again by the incorruptible Seed by the Word,(Logos) the divine expression of Christ. The same Logos (Word) as in John 1.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Who is the Word, the incorruptible Seed I am being "Born Again by"? It is Jesus Christ who is born again in me.

There is another word of God. hray-mah: The written and spoken word of topic from the Bible as we know it.

1 Peter 1:25 But the word (Hray-mah) of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Born again in me; John 1:12-14 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The will of God, The spirit of Satan, of whom he was my father the devil. He is defeated and out of me. The Spirit of Christ is now born again in me making me a son of God by the birthing of the incorruptible Seed of Jesus Christ in me. I now call My God Father by the Son God in me.
"Our Father".

Jesus Christ born again in us is our only hope of glory in heaven in our Fathers house prepared for us by Jesus Christ Himself.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

The most powerful words in the Bible; "Christ in You" Or us "In Christ", which is mentioned 163 ways and times in the New Testament.

In Christ and Christ in me: Phillip

I don't think any of those scriptures prove that Christ is born again but I'll let you have at it.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The only part of Jesus that died was His body, He did not need to be born again, But He died that we might be born again of His Spirit which His resurrected body was flesh and bone no blood, His Spirit that God rebirths in us when we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. This then is the Gospel we must believe; 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

We are born again of incorruptible Seed of the Word of God, (Jesus Christ) John 1:1-4

Joh 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1Pe 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Born again of the Spirit of Christ; Amen

In Christ: Phillip

The word faith has a double meaning in Scripture in the Greek. It means trusting in God and being trustworthy towards God. Therefore, repentance is integral to the very meaning of someone having faith. That's why Paul described salvation as turning towards God and faith in Jesus Christ. Some are trying to divide something that cannot be divided.

Amen Robert, great explanation of what saving faith is.

English-Strong's Index: faith

H529 'emuwn (1)
from 539; established, i.e. (figuratively) trusty; also (abstractly) trustworthiness:--faith(-ful), truth.
IN WHOM NO FAITH (1)
De 32:20

H530 'emuwnah (1)
feminine of 529; literally firmness; figuratively security; morally fidelity:--faith(-ful, -ly, -ness, (man)), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.
BY HIS FAITH (1)
Hab 2:4

G1680 elpis (1)
from a primary elpo (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstractly or concretely) or confidence:--faith, hope.
OF FAITH (1)
Heb 10:23

G3640 oligopistos (5)
from 3641 and 4102; incredulous, i.e. lacking confidence (in Christ):--of little faith.
O THOU OF LITTLE FAITH (1)
Mt 14:31
O YE OF LITTLE FAITH (4)
Mt 6:30; 8:26; 16:8; Lu 12:28

G4102 pistis (239)
from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
AFTER THAT FAITH (1)
Ga 3:25
BY FAITH (21)
Ac 15:9; 26:18; Ro 3:28; 5:2; 11:20; 2Co 1:24; Heb 11:4,5,7,8,9,17,20,21,22,23,24,27 ...
FAITH (141)
Mt 8:10; 9:2,22,29; 15:28; 17:20; 21:21; 23:23; Mr 2:5; 4:40; 5:34; 10:52; 11:22; Lu 5:20; 7:9,50; 8:25,48; 17:5,6 ...
FOR THE FAITH (2)
Php 1:27; Jude 1:3
IN FAITH (3)
Ro 4:19,20; Tit 2:2
IN THE FAITH (5)
Ac 14:22; 16:5; Ro 14:1; Col 1:23; 1Pe 5:9
OF FAITH (1)
Heb 12:2
OF FAITH (24)
Ac 6:5,8; 11:24; 14:27; Ro 3:27; 4:13; 10:8; 12:3,6 ...
OF THAT FAITH (1)
Ro 4:12
OF THE FAITH (3)
Ro 4:11; Eph 4:13; 1Ti 3:9
THE FAITH (31)
Ac 3:16; 13:8; 24:24; Ro 3:3; 4:16; 1Co 16:13; 2Co 13:5; Ga 1:23; 2:16,20; 3:23; Eph 3:12; Php 3:9; Col 2:7,12; 1Ti 1:2 ...
THROUGH FAITH (3)
Heb 11:3,11,28
TO THE FAITH (2)
Ac 6:7; Ro 1:5
WITH FAITH (1)
Heb 4:2

How am I to repent unless God grants it. In Granting it my faith must be turned from my faith "The sun is going to rise" to His Faith that I might believe the Gospel.

In Christ: Phillip

Phillip. If you're saying faith (and thus repentance ) is a gift of God, agreed. Scripture says a fruit of the Spirit is faith. To get the fruit, the root or heart has to be changed. I know that is controversial but the Scriptures say that very plainly.

Amen Robert,

Colossians 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Christ is our Justification; Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

How are we justified? By the Faith of Jesus Christ who is birthed in us by the Fathers incorruptible Seed.

The life I now live in the flesh, I live by the birthed Christ in me. "Christ Life"

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Thanks for your reply Robert.

"Phillip. If you're saying faith (and thus repentance ) is a gift of God, agreed. Scripture says a fruit of the Spirit is faith. To get the fruit, the root or heart has to be changed. I know that is controversial but the Scriptures say that very plainly"

That is why Paul was appointed apostle to the gentiles, and spent 3 and a half years under the Teaching of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in Arabia.

How do we go on into perfection? Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

Done unto salvation by believing what God said through Paul, 1 Cor 15:1-4 The Gospel, which we believe. By permission of God. The Works of Jesus in me. My only life.

In Christ: Phillip

Original question; """Is Turning from Sin Necessary for Salvation?"""

Yes, how is this done? By the Christ that is birthed in me and His working in me mightily. A new creature in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

I'm not sure what birthed in me means. The Spirit of Christ in union with my spirit is what creates my justification and accomplishes my sanctification. This is what Galatians 2 teaches. Union with Christ is our justifying righteousness. Communion with Christ accomplishes our becoming like Him in sanctification, thus Christ in us our hope of glory. I wish the body would grasp this vital truth. It is the foundation of the new covenant in His blood and it is the foundation of our assurance that we are His. He who has Christ (one spirit with Him) has eternal life by the Spirit.

by CofG on 2017/10/23 8:22:42

Re:
"The word faith has a double meaning in Scripture in the Greek. It means trusting in God and being trustworthy towards God. Therefore, repentance is integral to the very meaning of someone having faith. That's why Paul described salvation as turning towards God and faith in Jesus Christ. Some are trying to divide something that cannot be divided."

Robert,

You have great way of saying it.

I believe,w/ time and tradition,many words have been distorted from their true meaning.....while the world slumbered and slept ....

Can that be a hazard?

I know that I am being drastic,...but that is in my heart,...and ,...
do I not say ?

Truly lovingly,
----------------
elizabeth