sport car

Evangeline do you mean someone gives a sports car to certain preachers, or that certain preachers buy sports cars for themselves?

Was thinkin the same thing brother Todd...

I seem to remember a sermon where Art Katz had been gifted a Cadillac and he loved it... He spoke of resisting the urge to drive it faster than the speed limit and how (for him) that would’ve been sin -

Here we go! :-)

Could someone help me here, I need the right equation so that what I do and possess gives me the appearance of spirituality.

Me plus sports car 45K = unspiritual
Me plus SUV 70K = non-sports car = spiritual
Me plus Mercedes sedan 90K = spiritual
Me plus wrecked sports car 5K = unspiritual
Me plus Maserati sports car = damned to hell
Me plus two Harleys, RV trailer, 60K pickup = spiritual

Or
Me plus old car 1K plus hidden envy for SUV = spiritual
Me plus scooter 2K plus coveting neighbors wrecked sports car = spiritual

This is serious, because I prayed for the old car...My prayers answered, I prayed for the SUV unanswered, I prayed for my home, prayer answered, I prayed for money for school clothes, wifes wedding ring, that suit I wear to church to look presentable all answered.
The problem is I am judged for all of it.
I am not providing well because I have a bad running car, I am coveting and unspiritual because I wanted the SUV, I am wasting money because I bought new school clothes instead of salvation army style. I threw caution to the wind and purchased a 1ct diamond wedding ring for my wife, surely I must be a woman-pleaser but not a God pleaser with such extravagance. And anyone wearing a suit to Church must be unspiritual because suit represent the old establishment...and we know Jesus hates that.

A long post to say, when you set up litmus tests of spirituality by what a man owns or what a man drives there is only one viable conclusion; the grace of God is removed and personal rules and regulations must be imposed.
Those who impose them of necessity judge themselves as more spiritual and that spirituality has one true function...condemn those who are not like you.

This is not an argument in favor of greed, lust, coveting, envy or wastefulness...my intent is to show that a "sports car" is no sign of either spiritual or unspiritual without knowing what the character of the owner is like.

Evangeline I think the best policy is to not worry about what others have or do- leave them to God. If it upsets you that a pastor drives a sports car then you don’t have to attend his church but like Fletcher said some very godly men drive nice cars.

Ha! Well I drive a 46 yr old international with no heater or a/c so you know what that makes me?
Crazy!!
Sweaty and cold,... alternating tween the seasons and I love it:)

Fletcher, I may just have you beat, I live in a 33' travel trailer on an acre of property, and drive a 1998 GMC...Can I be a Preacher? :-)

Well...internationals and travel trailers are on my list...you aint getting in past the pearly gates. Now if you had a ford... and you blacked out the windows on the trailer I'll put in a word with Peter.

Im sure Evangeline was serious now Ive taken this thing into silly.

...but you still aint getting in.

Marvin, a little humor here would not be a bad thing, can I get an Amen! My friends all ask me, Bill why don't you build you a nice home on that property, you know what I ask them, how many homes did Jesus own? So it appears I'm in good company. :-)

Mark me down for a 1965 Mustang. 289, please. I will do my best to not speed or sin in it.

Sweet. We have two Honda Civics. Not flashy but great reliable cars. Will drive them until they turn into dust or judgment day, whichever comes first.

HaHaHa! Thought for a minute that this was an automotive forum. Put me down for a 1995 Jeep wrangler that I calculated has cost me about 10 cents per mile in vehicle purchase and modification costs. No air, 4wd, and I LOVE it. Fletcher, is it a scout?

I think Todd is right here. Spirituality is not determined by possessions, and possessions are not necessarily sin. I have a friend with a 5,000 square foot house, two businesses, seven children, who can afford really cool vacations every year. But this man funnels more money into the work of the kingdom of God in a year than I make in a year. He sees it as his ministry calling, and he joyfully goes about giving where few see him doing it.

I heard a story from a minister of a close personal friend of his. This man had a huge horse ranch, hundreds of thousands of dollars of really fine vehicles, boats, UTV's etc. The man lives a pretty opulent lifestyle by anyone's estimation. People sometimes accused him of greed and of being unspiritual for having great wealth. What they did not know that the minister did know was that this man gave to the kingdom of God 90% of every bit of income he had and lived on ten. Yet he was judged harshly by someone who most likely lived on 90% and only gave 10%.

Food for thought.

Brother Travis,

Ha! Good call- yes it is the first year for the scout ll, and while the aforementioned qualities are true, she’s good looking:)
Not easy to drive tho, especially on 9 hr trips with no top to NE Arkansas to visit family-
Ahhh but the memories;)

A good and godly man completely restored it for personal use but ultimately sold it to me 4 yrs ago when they were expanding their auto body shop. He’s an elder in their local assembly and tho he’s "reformed osas” I don’t hold it against him;)

Also heard about the brother who owned catapillar, he too was very wealthy and tithed 90% and still had more than enough to be judged harshly:/

If anyone cares to read there’s a wonderful writing here on SI by Clement about the rich man and heaven.... IMO he does well to fetch out the truth from the scriptures. He’s fun to read by if you like Paul’s wordiness as Clement too is very intelligent and wordy.

I hear ya brother Blaine and your point is well taken... not to derail the thread but given its lightheartedness perhaps it’s ok-

I was wondering why the apostles sometimes healed and sometimes where not able to, or at least it seems that way in certain cases-
For example when Paul wrote about Epaphroditus,... why didn’t Paul just lay hands on him? Especially considering he almost died from his sickness!

Bear I love that story””it is actually attributed to Thomas Aquinas during a discussion with Pope Innocent II.

A Pharisee would drive the sports car and tell everyone else they weren’t good enough to drive one.

Or the one preacher that told his flock that Jesus wanted him to have a $65,000,000 G5 plane and they all needed to give him $300 each so he could use the plane to spread the gospel....
now that is clearly devoid of the spirit of God.

Evangeline: I had a little fun with your post, but what is important is recognizing what we prioritize. Do we put our soulish self in the first position? How can I tell? Well, when you spend your time, effort, health, stress, money, planning is it mostly for worldly things? Do you organize your life, work and plan because the new shiny thing is what all that effort is for? Any time for prayer, the bible and concern for others? Yes, its factored in between Sunday 10am and 11:30 am and on Wednesday taking the kids to youth group. Anything else? No.
You see, dining, TV, entertainments, facebook, friends, jobs, family, house upkeep, hobbies, chores, all demand their place nearest to 1st spot.
What about Jesus? Well, Jesus gets Sunday 1.5hrs.

So, if the exploitation preacher has a fat check and big house and big expenses...are we not imitating exactly what he is about...on a smaller scale? Maybe some of us are, maybe I am? Maybe the imitation of their luxurious lifestyle is what we craved while doctrinally we condemn.

A wife and family out of order, kids being trained in ungodliness without even a double check by dad on weekly basis? Maybe mom loves Church but hasn't had a real conversation with her Christian mom friends about Jesus...since who knows when.
The world infiltrates the Christian home from a dozen different angles in any one moment. Those who want to stay out of the ghetto, get away from the dirty drug filled apartments, get out of the bad neighborhood where its only a matter of time before little suzie is pregnant, little bobby is a gang member and you come home after 1.5 hours of Jesus and go..."where is God when I need him"?

No, there is a lot more to knowing and discerning where people are at...and the driveway check is really the worst of the tests.

Brother Blaine: You don't know how to be a Pharisee do you?

A Pharisee driving a sports car doesn't only say "he doesn't deserve to drive one"...he says "If he gets one, it must be what our club finds popular and trendy, it must be that you are one of us and what you are adds to us more prestige and increases the notoriety of our members."

So, don't show up with your sports car thinking you can drive with us...because your not one of us.

Remember there is a life, a career, a reputation and monetary influence that even allows you to apply.

Your website Pharisee car club president.

Brother Marvin,

All jokes aside-
Your reply to sister Evangeline is very well articulated, and if I may, I’d like to copy and share it with someone close?

I don’t think anyone here disagrees with the sentiment of Evangeline’s post.

There have only been cautions about making blanket judgments about other believers/preachers based on something they may own.

I do not see anyone condoning the gross excesses of prosperity preachers.

But I have a feeling that even John MacArthur and Franklin Graham and John Piper probably drive nice cars.

I think it is important to look at the context of Luke 12:33. We cannot understand what Jesus is saying here without looking at the whole context not only of the chapter itself, but of His teachings and actions in the entirety of the New Testament.

In Luke 14, Jesus says that unless a man hate his father and mother, yes and all of his family, he cannot be my disciple. Now we know from context that Jesus is not saying that we should harbor hatred toward our families. He is saying that to love them more than you love Him will cause you to follow them rather than Him. In other words, you will not be His disciple because in your heart you are committed to them rather than to Him.

The same thing applies here. Look back at verses 21-32. In verse 21 Jesus give the entire point behind what He is teaching. Don't lay up treasure for yourself, but be rich toward God. Then He describes the man who is consumed by his own material needs. This man is worried and frets over where his next meal or his clothes will come from. If that is where your heart is, you will never be able to be His disciple. The heathen seek after these things. Why? They do not have the Spirit of God. They are carnal. Their treasure is where their heart is.

So if you are bound by riches, sell all you have and start putting your heart where it should be. Get rid of the treasure that has you bound and trust in the Lord.

Isn't this the same point that Jesus made to the rich young ruler?

Jesus is not teaching that holiness or righteousness or spirituality if you will is found in being poor or in giving away all of your material possessions. If that were the case, then we all ought to be homeless and wandering. Jesus did not command all believers here to live at a certain socio-economic status by giving away all of their possessions.
He is teaching us that possessions cannot still have us in bondage.
We cannot live for possessions. That is what unsaved people do.
If that is your temptation, perhaps you need to cut it off as we read in another place.

If Jesus were indeed teaching us to be poor in order to demonstrate spirituality, then where do you draw the line? Is a Ford sedan holier than a Mercedes sedan? Would a bicycle then not be holier than a Ford? But what brand bicycle? Should I buy it from Wal-mart or am I allowed to go to a custom bike shop and get a $3000 rig?

You see, if we miss the point, we get into all kinds of weird legalistic wrangling, when what God is interested in is the motive of the heart. Out of the heart come our actions. We can no more judge motive and heart by what we see a person driving than we can judge the quality of a car by looking at the tires that have been installed on it.

Let the tree be good, and the fruit will be good. It is NEVER the other way around. The motive is the driving factor, not the actions or the material circumstances.

If money has me and I am greedy and coveteous, then being poor will not make me any more righteous, nor will it deal with me greed or coveteousness. A wicked heart looks the same driving a Yugo as it does driving a BMW. But if money does not have me, I will use my resources as God directs me whether my resources be few or many.

This is how I see it. Legalism is much like Buddhism or Hinduism. It is an attempt to gain right standing in God's eyes by keeping the law, just like Hinduism is an attempt to be right with or to please a god by keeping the Hindu rules or principles. Most of us would say, I am not into legalism. I believe in salvation by grace through faith. But often our conversation belies the tendency in us to try to relate to God based on rule of law. These things are always external as laws are written to address actions, not motives.

I have been very guilty of this over my walk with God. Whenever we find that we have been displeasing to God, it should cause our heart to break and to desire to please Him in the future. But it should not cause us to be absolutely derailed spiritually. I was in the second category. Any infraction, no matter how minor, would send me into a tailspin. It should not be so.

I ministered to a woman recently who was filled with shame and condemnation because she had not felt like she had been in her Bible enough to please God. This is what I am talking about. It is legalism because she tied her relationship with God and His love for her to her external actions. It is a treadmill that results only in bondage. In fact, this is the bondage that Paul says in Galatians 5 that we should not be entangled in.

But we cannot judge another man as a legalist or as unspiritual based on certain outward actions. Now obviously if I see you coming from a bar, drunk, I will be able to judge, rightly, that you are not in a good place spiritually. So we are not talking about these kinds of externals. We are talking about possessions here.

Lets take Greg for example. Since I do not know Greg personally, I talk in general. If Greg believes in living a very simple lifestyle, then I have absolutely no issues with that. The question is, what is his motive? That is what is critical to the discussion. If he believes that God has called him to live this lifestyle, and if he does so out of a heart that recognizes the grace of God that has made him righteous, and if he lives this lifestyle out of obedience to God through love, not through fear of obligation or law, then I would say his lifestyle is awesome and beautiful in the eyes of God. However, if Greg were to walk in condemnation before God, feeling like his lifestyle was necessary in order for God to love and accept him as righteous, then his lifestyle is legalism, and external, and by its very definition enmity against God and displeasing to Him. Its Romans 4-8 through and through. But I do not now Greg's motive or his walk with God. So, I have no ability to judge those works.

The flesh is enmity against God. We are told to repent of dead works. These are the works of the law, legalism. They bring us only death. However, these same works, done out of obedience and motivated by our love relationship with the Lord are beautiful and represent the fruits of righteousness. It is not the works, but the wellspring from which the works originate that is everything to this discussion in my opinion.

Another thing that comes to mind. God has not called us to be wealthy, nor has He called us to be poor. He has called us to love Him more than possessions. If that is the case, wealthy or poor, we will have a heart to give liberally and generously on all occasions. We will be obedient to God where all of our possessions are concerned. He has called us to be good stewards of what He has given us. Again, the steward does what the master commands. This will lead us to be obedient to Him in our financial dealings. This has nothing to do with the brand of car we drive, nor with its ultimate cost. It has to do with love and obedience.

Brother Travis,

Well said sir!

Amen to what Travis says about legalism. The Christian life is more about relationship than rules. I am not kicking godly living to the curb when I say that. My deal is that the Christian disciplines such as Bible study, prayer, church assembly, worship, tithing, witnessing and service are practices where we engage with God and acquire His attitude of being outward focused on our vertical relationship with God and our horizontal relationships with others instead of being self-focused on ourselves and our performance. Too many Christians I feel are actually hindered in their relationship with God and others because they approach the disciplines and obedience from an angle of performance to attain right standing. If someone says they do these things in order to "please the Lord", it could be they are speaking from a good and healthy perspective where they know they are loved and accepted by God purely by grace and not works and they genuinely live godly because it expresses who they are as new creatures in Christ or it could be they mean they are trying to please the Lord by doing the disciplines and works because God isn't pleased or accepting of them until or unless they do everything right. That latter attitude I fear describes the lives of too many Christians. Godly living should flow naturally from having a close and loving relationship with God. Relationship based on God's love and grace should be the starting point and not the works and disciplines even though they are important and should accompany the relationship.

Everything below is taken from a book by David Takle entitled "Forming, a work of Grace" and develops these points further:

One day when I asked a friend of mine how his relationship with God was going, he hesitated for a few moments and then began, "Well, the Bible study I'm leading on Sunday mornings seems to be going OK. As for the rest, I’m not so sure. I know it could be better. I'm still dealing with my anger issues, my wife and I fight about a lot of stupid things, and I have yet to get involved in one of the small groups at church.” After acknowledging his struggles and empathizing with his efforts, I repeated my question. "How is your relationship with God going?” He responded with a quizzical look and asked, "You mean my quiet time?”

It is interesting that when you ask people about the quality of their relationship with God, they will talk about the things that they do, whether they do them well or poorly, and how they measure up against some ideal standard of what a Christian ought to be like. For the vast majority of Christians, the phrase "relationship with God” is almost synonymous with the phrase "how well I am doing in my Christian obligations.”

But relationship with God is not about how we are performing or how many vices we have conquered. Imagine for a moment that when you ask someone about their relationship with a favorite professor they respond with, "Well, I get to most of the classes on time, I'm getting a 3.5 in his classes, and I'm fairly certain I'll pass the final without too much trouble.” Those things might have some connection, but they tell you almost nothing about that person's relationship with the professor.

A genuine relationship has some substance to it, an emotional closeness, a trust that is tangible and meaningful, and an expression of time together, with conversations and gifts of life from one to another. Yet for most Christians, their relationship to God is about on par with their relationship to their banker. They know how to ask for help when they need it, but they have no idea what the guy even looks like.

My friend’s question about his quiet time is getting closer to the point, but may or may not have anything to do with a real connection to God. A time set aside to be with God is an essential part of building a relationship with Him. Unfortunately, most of us have been taught to have a quiet time that bears a striking resemblance to cramming for a test. It looks and feels more like doing homework than connecting with a person.

The very fact that we confuse having a relationship with God with doing Bible study or going to church or conquering sin ought to be evidence enough that something is terribly wrong in the way many Christians have been trained.

A major part of Christian formation is understanding the nature of our relationship with God and learning how to be with Him, not just think about Him or have correct theology about Him. An authentic relationship with God is a lot more than just being legally adopted into heaven's family tree. It is something we need to give time and attention to because relationships involve shared experience and a knowing of each other's heart. Even a strong bond with another person will change us in ways we do not expect and in ways we could not accomplish in isolation. Much more, a functioning relationship with God will change us from the inside out.

Many Christians today have more of an arrangement with God than a relationship. The arrangement goes something like this: "God, I will believe Your explanation of reality and confess my need for Your redemption, and in return You will take me to heaven when I die. And then in gratitude for what You have done for me, I will try my best to do Christian-like things and live an ethical lifestyle.” In many places this sort of thing actually passes for the gospel message.

As delicately as I can put it, that kind of transaction is a travesty, a mere caricature of the Good News. Jesus did not come to earth to make a deal with us. He came to offer us LIFE itself, an invitation to live in the presence of God. These words are not some fancy way of talking about a legal contract. They are the very heart of the matter. God came to participate in a tangible, substantive relationship with us that is as real as any we have with another human being, only far more life-giving.

Rather than view our relationship with God as primarily an arrangement whereby we get to have life after death, Christian formation views our relationship with God as the very definition of life itself, a relationship that leads to living forever with the King. Only a perspective of this nature can make any sense of the passion of the early followers and the kind of language they employed in their writings.

-Daniel

Brother Travis said "Another thing that comes to mind. God has not called us to be wealthy, nor has He called us to be poor. He has called us to love Him more than possessions".

I totally agree! I personally feel one of the greatest drawbacks of the forum is folks bring up the pastors and the way they lived their lives, 50-75-100-150 years ago, we are NOT comparing apples to apples. Even though some of the old pastors had a good message, play that message in front of a class of 16 year olds, it's just not going to work in today's world, they want to hear someone that has to had to deal with TODAYS issues in TODAYS world, the world is completely different than is was even 25 years ago.

Times have changed, we didn't have computers back then, or a lot of the things of today that brought on the temptation. If folks want to live poor, drive a 50 year old car, and live in communes and home church and grow long beards to look like the some of the old school pastors, thats wonderful. My guess if God wanted us all to live that same lifestyle, he would have not given us a free will, and just made us all the same. People need to quit trying to control folks that are living good honest lives, God is the designer, not man, leave the designing of the way people live to God.

Sometimes I wonder why we've lost a generation, because they don't want to go to church and listen to how poor or frugal they need to live, maybe, just maybe God has a plan for someone that requires a lot of money, so what? we're going to condemn their lifestyle before he even works out his plan through them? If anyone wants to live in the 1800's hey thats their business, and they have my Blessings, but please respect what God may be doing in other lives, not just your own.

If luxuries in life are sinful, God would have just had satan kill Job, but no, God did not allow satan to wreck Job's life because of luxuries, he did it to show Job's faith. Matter fact, if your remember, God gave Job back more Luxuries than he originally had. O NO! can Christians still have luxuries and still have faith, and live a Godly life? well let me answer that, YES! and many do.

twayneb....Lets take Greg for example. Since I do not know Greg personally, I talk in general. If Greg believes in living a very simple lifestyle, then I have absolutely no issues with that. The question is, what is his motive?

Mr. Bear, there were many people in the bible that God used as example's in many different ways, David, Daniel, Paul, Peter, Moses, and many more, but I don't recall once him saying we need to be exactly like these people. What we need to be like is, the person God has called us to be, when Christians start following any man, and chooses to live a lifestyle like that man, and shuts out God, they will be very miserable and unhappy. We are called to live Godly lives, not manly lives, but by all means, if God has called you to live a poor, frugal, walk to church, grow your own food, listen to pastors sermons that are 25-50-75-100 years old, etc. life, go for it, I'm sure not going to second guess what God is wanting to do in anyone's life. By the way, my shepherd is Jesus Christ, when he ministers to me through the spirit, he doesn't holler, condemn, minister any condemnation, he isn't mixing his opinion with the word of God, he ministering pure spirit and truth.

Hi Fletcher: Please feel free to use anything I said ( good or bad) to help someone else.

Hi guys/gals.

I am the one who started with a post using sarcasm to make my point. If that caused a stumble, it was not my intention. What I wanted to convey is this text.
Joh_7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Instead of just toss the text forward as a kind of a slap to Evangeline, I wanted to employ a bit of sarcasm to clarify what it means to judge according to appearance.
My intent was to show that when we deviate from the wisdom of God here, carnal reasoning jumps in and will rationalize everything from poverty to G-5 planes.
I was hoping that instead of just text-dumping on her or anyone else...I attempted to open up what it becomes when carnal rationalizing begins.

As things progressed I wanted to have fun with this thread...but it may have been misinterpreted as a mocking gesture, I did not seek to demean Evangeline by my humor.

What Travis and many others have to say on the subject seems to clarify three important aspects of godly Christian living. 1. Seek first the kingdom of God. 2. Judge not according to appearances. 3. Legalism in all its forms betrays a spirit that depends upon other things for their justification in the sight of God.

For me, this thread was edifying and I believe the Spirit of God spoke clearly to instruct us all.

In my area we have about 300 families of an Amish cult moving in. they are to pious to drive a 1 or 2 thousand dollar vehicle. Instead they are holding up traffic all over the place driving $50,000 plus tractors as daily transportation.

God has been working this revelation in me as well. For many years I accepted that I was saved by grace, but then I tried to live my life through performance. I was always falling short and not measuring up in my own mind. I think it has just been in the past six months that God has been showing me what His love and grace is really about. It has been transforming my life. I am now beginning to live my entire life out of this revelation, and it is giving me renewed power in my life to live in victory in every area of life. I am realizing that because of God's love and grace toward me that I never have to have another bad day. He has given me joy and peace in all situations. I never have to give in to any temptation again. I never have to entertain thoughts that are contrary to His word. He has given me victory over that. He has set me free. His grace teaches me to live in victory. His empowerment is complete. Praise God, I have been set free. What my own effort could never produce, His power amply provides.

Mr. Bear sorry if you felt like I was addressing you, I hadn’t even read your post when I posted, so no didn’t get you mixed up with anyone. I hope you don’t start taking everything I say in the same thread we both participate in, personal.

Edit: Just read all Mr. Bears posts on this thread, guess I see now why he might have thought I was addressing him, nope just addressing myself. :-)

by Sherri2
It all boils down to a heart issue....1 Corinthians 13 clearly states that.

It’s not what we wear. Modesty, yes! It’s not what we drive, it’s not the house we live in...it’s a matter of the heart. A woman can wear the longest dress, covering every part of her skin, wear a complete hair covering, and a man can easily look at her and be tempted the same as if her dress went to the knees. Deep in her heart she can have secret thoughts no one knows except God. Man or woman can look holy outwardly, but inwardly be full of dead bones.

sherri2...Honestly, since I’ve been on SI, I mostly feel condemnation.

Sister Sherri,

Praise God! I'm so glad to hear that you have accepted God's grace and love for you!

I decided to look at SI about the Sports Car thread to see why there were so many posts. I am so glad I did...and I am so blessed to read your post on here. I was so concerned about what was going to happen to you. I'm glad that God is working out everything.

I'm so happy and thankful for you! I will be praying for you and your family that God will bless you amazingly in the future He has destined in Christ for you! I pray that you will be free to listen to God and believe His love for you, your husband, and family. I pray that Christ will be the center of your home and that your whole household will be saved, walking in His truth and Love.

Blessings...rbanks

Dear Sherri,

"I go in peace."

Amen.

1 Peter 2:24-25 -- and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

Phil. 3:13-14 ”“ …… one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

My Faith Has Found a Resting Place
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd3Md0FBlm8

He Giveth More Grace
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o63If7p-Z6E

Jesus Paid It All
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bPaXN9j9yQ