16th century Anabaptist taught : "innocent party to a divorce was permitted to remarry"

"Divorce has not permitted among the Anabaptists and Mennonites from the earliest times to the mid-20th century except for the cause of adultery, in accordance with the Biblical standard as found in Matthew 19:9, although separation (either legal or privately arranged) was generally allowed.

In a tract entitled Concerning Divorce written by one of the first Swiss Brethren in 1527, possibly by Michael Sattler, appears the earliest known Anabaptist treatment of the subject. The main points in this tract stressed: (1) the permanence of the marriage bond; (2) the supremacy of one's obligation to Christ over obligation to the marriage partner; (3) the only ground for divorce was adultery; (4) to marry one guilty of fornication was itself fornication; (5) the innocent party to a divorce was not forbidden to remarry, and was by implication permitted to do so. Except for the fifth point, regarding which there was some ambiguity and occasional divergence within the brotherhood, this tract can be thought of as summarizing quite well the position of the Mennonite church regarding divorce through the mid 20th century.

Menno Simons also clarified the Anabaptist position on divorce, referring directly to the words of Christ and of the Apostle Paul. He reiterated the theme of adultery being the only acceptable ground for divorce. "And also, that the bond of undefiled, honorable matrimony is so unchangeably bound in the kingdom and government of Christ that neither a man nor a woman can forsake one the other, and take another, understand rightly what Christ says, except it be for fornication, Matthew 19:9. And Paul also holds the same doctrine, that they shall he bound to each other, and that they are to live in union; that the man has not power over his own body, nor the woman over hers, 1 Corinthians 7:4." (Works, 247). The Wismar Resolutions of 1554, (as quoted in Mennonitisches Lexikon I, 530) say: "Adultery on the part of one member breaks the marriage relationship. However, the responsible party may return to re-establish the relationship provided he (or she) gives evidence of due repentance and a changed life. In cases of deliberate adultery, the innocent party may be free to remarry after consulting with the congregation." The position taken by the Hutterian Brethren was ". . . that nothing can break the marriage bond except adultery. In cases where a man is married to an unbelieving woman, and she desires to live with him, he may not divorce her (nor vice versa). If the unbelieving husband threatens her faith or hinders the training of the children in the faith, she may divorce her husband, but must not remarry so long as that man is living."
http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Divorce_and_Remarriage

Michael Sattler :

"He who divorces without fornication, the only reason, and remarries, commits adultery; and he who takes a
divorced woman causes her to commit adultery; for Christ says, "These two are one flesh". But he who cleaves to a
harlot, as Paul says, 1 Cor. 6, sins against his own body and is one flesh with the harlot. Thus he is by this act
separated from his own flesh, in that he has attached himself to the alien flesh of the prostitute, and thus the marriage
is broken; for they are no longer one flesh, since the fornicator has become one flesh with the harlot. The one who
finds herself thereby divorced may now marry, whom she will, only let it be in the Lord..."

Menno Simons:

"These two, one husband and one wife, are one flesh and can not be separated from each other to marry again
otherwise than for adultery, as the Lord says. Matt. 5:19; Mark 10; Luke 16.

Dirk Philips :

"The Lord desired and commanded that men should do this no more (freely divorce their wives for any cause),
except in case of fornication, which is the only and true reason or cause for which a man may leave or put away his
wife (((and take another)))."

P. 401 Martyrs Mirror Article xxv :

"..., that they might not, on any account, separate and marry another, (((except))) in case of adultery or death

RE : /// I would say MANY remarriages are under wrong circumstances. Is it right to tell couples to dissolve their relationship (even with children involved) if its a remarriage under wrong circumstances?///

"Should not separate and live as single people thinking that this would result in less sin because all their sexual relations are acts of adultery. The Bible does not give prescriptions for this particular case, but it does treat second marriages as having significant standing in God's eyes. That is, there were promises made and there has been a union formed. It should not have been formed, but it was. It is not to be taken lightly. Promises are to be kept, and the union is to be sanctified to God. While not the ideal state, staying in a second marriage is God's will for a couple and their ongoing relations should not be looked on as adulterous." - John Piper

edit added more of the quote of Pipers.

by sermonindex
I would say MANY remarriages are under wrong circumstances. Is it right to tell couples to dissolve their relationship (even with children involved) if its a remarriage under wrong circumstances?

Acts 10
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Acts 13:11 And that is what some of you WERE. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

How can someone be guilty of a sin and still be justified?

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: and by him ALL THAT BELIEVE are justified FROM ALL THINGS, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

James 2
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and MERCY REJOICES against judgment.

Bro Blaine,

Greg was addressing : "((if)) remarried in the wrong circumstance..."

I thought it was a rather balanced view.

edit: clarity

This is and always has been a very controversial subject among Christians, and always will be. I look at it two fold, yes God said he hates divorce, but he never said it's unforgivable, I also would be very cautious of telling folks that divorce is a sin God will not forgive, if so this scripture was written in vain. Matthew...12:31 Therefore I say unto you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. If everyone could just take that scripture at face value, and not try and twist other scriptures to go against it, I'm sure it would make God happier.

Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.But I say to you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery" (Matthew 5.31-32). In other words, "In An Ideal World", whomever you marry, you stay married to. And the only out is this, if you think you'll be better off unmarried, then get divorced, but then stay that way.

Hermes A.D. 90

Hermes was sold into slavery and sent to Rome as a boy. He was later set free by his owner, a woman called Rhoda. He became known as one of the authoritative Fathers of the Church and an influential Christian writer, noted for his detailed description of early Christianity. His surviving book, "The Shepherd”, was considered to be an inspired book of the Holy Bible until the fourth century A.D.

To quote the translators: "The Shepherd of Hermas is in form, an apocalypse. It consists of a series of revelation made to Hermas by the church, who appears in the form of a woman, by the shepherd, the angel of repentance, and by the great angel who is in charge of Christians. Each revelation is accompanied by an explanation, and from these it can be seen though the form of the book is apocalyptic and visionary, its object is practical and ethical.”

Hermas wrote:

"I charge you," said he, "to guard your chastity, and let no thought enter your heart of another man's wife, or of fornication, or of similar iniquities; for by doing this you commit a great sin.

But if you always remember your own wife, you will never sin. For if this thought enter your heart, then you will sin; and if, in like manner,you think other wicked thoughts, you commit sin. For this thought is great sin in a servant of God. But if any one commit this wicked deed, he works death for himself.

Attend, therefore, and refrain from this thought; for where purity dwells, there iniquity ought not to enter the heart of a righteous man." I said to him, "Sir, permit me to ask you a few questions." "Say on," said he. And I said to him, "Sir, if any one has a wife who trusts in the Lord, and if he detect her in adultery, does the man sin if he continue to live with her?"

And he said to me, "As long as he remains ignorant of her sin, the husband commits no transgression in living with her. But if the husband know that his wife has gone astray, and if the woman does not repent, but persists in her fornication, and yet the husband continues to live with her, he also is guilty of her crime, and a sharer in her adultery.

" And I said to him, "What then, sir, is the husband to do, if his wife continue in her vicious practices?" And he said, "The husband should put her away, and remain by himself. But if he put his wife away and marry another, he also commits adultery."

And I said to him, "What if the woman put away should repent, and wish to return to her husband: shall she not be taken back by her husband?" And he said to me, "Assuredly. If the husband do not take her back, he sins, and brings a great sin upon himself; for he ought to take back the sinner who has repented…In this matter man and woman are to be treated exactly in the same way. ”“The Shepherd 4:1-10

Hermas taught:

1. If a wife persists in adulterous behavior the "innocent party” may, and should, divorce in order to separate away from the sins of the offender

2. If a husband divorces his wife for such a reason he must remain single and not remarry.

3. If a wife repents of her offence the husband must forgive her and receive her back as wife.

4. If the husband does not forgive his repentant wife he brings a great sin upon himself.

5. Men and woman are to act and be regarded exactly the same in this matter.

May I offer for some thought ?...

Mt.19:

¶ He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

10 ¶ His disciples say unto him, 'IF THE CASE BE SO WITH HIS WIFE,' it is not good to marry.

11 ¶ But he said unto them, '***All men cannot receive this saying,'....

(And , next sentence Jesus continues,)

12 *For there are 'some eunuchs', 'which were so born from their mother's womb': ....

and there are 'some eunuchs', which 'were made eunuchs of men':,....

and, ...'there be eunuchs',...
...which 'have made themselves,eunuchs' ...'for the kingdom of heaven's sake'. ...He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Eunuch: ( Strongs Exhaustive Concordance)
2135 eunoúxos ”“ properly, "alone in bed" (i.e. without a marriage partner) ”“ literally, a castrated (emasculated) man; a eunuch; " 'a chamberlain, keeper of the bed-chamber' of an Eastern potentate, 'a eunuch' " (Souter); (figuratively) someone who abstains from marriage (sexual relations) to be solely devoted to God ”“ as in Mt 19:12 where 2135 (eunoúxos) refers to someone who voluntarily chooses a life of abstinence.

Question:
But WHY,..Would some 'make themselves EUNUCHS,....'FOR'.....
'THE KINGDOM OF GOD SAKE'......??

Now,!
Next verses Jesus is talking about 'little children'...and 'the kingdom of God'

Why,??

13 ¶ Then were there brought unto him 'little children', that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: 'for of such is the kingdom of heaven'.

He just talked about marriage / divorce, and 'an Eunuchs' and 'the kingdom of God', ......

...and now He switches to 'little children',....and 'the kingdom of God',...

Then on down,...
The rich man desiring Eternal Life,.."what must I do to inherit Eternal Life? "

Taking all this teaching into consideration,because it seems to be a continuation,....,...

....what is Jesus getting at ?

This is what I see, .....

Jesus is giving instructions, for 'for His kingdom, 'the kingdom of God'
or 'the kingdom of The Word / Spirit,..on :

marriage / divorce,..
Then, 'little children'

Little children,......( us ).......humble, willing to hear / obey,...teachable.... in the kingdom of God or God' kingdom ...

Then 'the rich man' ,... was he willing to 'hear' / obey ?

* all for 'the kingdom of God'........Eternal / Everlasting Life ...?

I cannot tell anyone what to do,..but I would encourage ,...

In all these things,..is it not to be 'filled with The Spirit of God' and 'to be led by The Spirit of God,...?

......hear what He is saying to us individually....through The Spirit, and confirming it in The Word,...and conversing with God, on any matter.

That Devine effluence upon our heart,....( Grace. )
.......

---------------------🙏
elizabeth

Divorce and Remarriage is a difficult subject. There are hard cases such as remarriage before conversion and when children are involved. We must go by scripture regardless.

1.Cor 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

Where does it say that this means remarriage?

39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

1.Cor 7:27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

I just cannot find any scriputure in the New Testament that permits remarriage except for the death of one spouse.

Again, the only remarried person in the NT I can think of was king Herod.

Divorce and remarriage was not enshrined into the law until about 100 years ago, because law makers and the general public tended to fear God more than today.

We are talking about the option of remarriage for the believing, innocent party in this blog.
If I read Romans 7:3, Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9 in the plainest sence even the innocent party is committing adultery if they remarry - please show if I am wrong.

In the past people understood that marriage was a covenant between husband and wife for life, recognized in society and joined togehter by God. People held out even if the marriage was not happy. They understood that it would be better to stick it out together than to abandon spouse or children to fight for survival.

Marriage is bigger than husband and wife living together. It is something that is a the very core of God's plan for mankind, it was there even before the fall. It is a mystery that mirrors Christ's relationship to his bride that will NEVER be dissolved.

It is a serious thing to take assunder what God joined together. By legalizing divorce and remarriage the very fabric of society has been destroyed. Children and abandoned spouses carry deep scars.

Mal 2: 15-16 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.For the Lord, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the Lord of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

50% of all marriages end in divorce and God hates it.

Drug abuse, mental illness, violence is spinning out of control in the US, and Europe is not far behind.

We are paying a very high price for this freedom.

RE : /// Divorce and remarriage was not enshrined into the law until about 100 years ago, because law makers and the general public tended to fear God more than today.///

If I am correct the law of the land has always allowed Fault divorce "such as abandonment, cruelty, incurable mental illness, or adultery."

Secondly the 16th century Early Anabaptist understood that the Scriptures allowed the innocent to remarry. It is not some new way of reading Scripture that has only came about in the last 100 years by people whom fear the general public more than they do God.

Bro Blaine,
Thank you for your kind words,...I appreciate them.

Now could we take a closer look at the word 'yoke' ?

The Lord does not want us to go backwards again back again iinto The 'bondage' of sin, ...that we were once yoked up to / with,...He has broke the yoke of sin from off us.....It is a heavy laden yoke.

Jesus wants us to be yoked up w/ Him, and continue yoked w/ Him.

Mt.11:28-30,
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

(Grace to us and peace / rest)

29 "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find 'rest' unto your souls..".....
....(Rest)

......(not only 'learn of me, but a yoke,........a yoke,...but why a yoke ?
We are yoked up w / Jesus......he quides 'The Way'...helps us every step of
The Way,...( I Am The Way).......grace,.....(strength),..to help in time of need..

30 "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Dear Brother,
I am not telling anyone what to do,...the Word says for us 'to work out our own 'Salvation' with fear and trembling '

Salvation:
His Spirit is within us to 'Save,...Salvation us from our
sins,..everyday,..always,...He will never leave us or forsake us.
( however, we might could leave Him.)

Do hope I am not coming across as 'legal'

*The new and Living Way,..is to be filled w / His Spirit and to be led by His Spirit,...( not legal)..(not law).

Lovingly always,
---------------🛐
elizabeth

Brothers and sisters
As I read these posts I have to agree and disagree. I am walking in the anointing the LORD has given me and the shoes He has given me..
Mosty I agree with Mercy. I always will side with Mercy.
Without HIS MERCY I WOULD NOT BE HERE..
PSA 103:Bless the Lord, O my soul;
And all that is within me, bless His holy name!
2 Bless the Lord, O my soul,
And forget not all His benefits:
3 Who forgives all your iniquities,
Who heals all your diseases,
4 Who redeems your life from destruction,
Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies,
5 Who satisfies your mouth with good things,
So that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.
6 The Lord executes righteousness
And justice for all who are oppressed.
7 He made known His ways to Moses,
His acts to the children of Israel.
8 The Lord is merciful and gracious,
Slow to anger, and abounding in mercy.
9 He will not always strive with us,
Nor will He keep His anger forever.
10 He has not dealt with us according to our sins,
Nor punished us according to our iniquities.
11 For as the heavens are high above the earth,
So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
12 As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
13 As a father pities his children,
So the Lord pities those who fear Him.
14 For He knows our frame;
He remembers that we are dust.
15 As for man, his days are like grass;
As a flower of the field, so he flourishes.
16 For the wind passes over it, and it is gone,
And its place remembers it no more.[a]
17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting
On those who fear Him,
And His righteousness to children’s children,
18 To such as keep His covenant,
And to those who remember His commandments to do them.
19 The Lord has established His throne in heaven,
And His kingdom rules over all.
20 Bless the Lord, you His angels,
Who excel in strength, who do His word,
Heeding the voice of His word.
21 Bless the Lord, all you His hosts,
You ministers of His, who do His pleasure.
22 Bless the Lord, all His works,
In all places of His dominion.
Bless the Lord, O my soul!

There are reasons why people divorce. Two people break the covenant..
What about Abuse??
MAL 2:16
For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
God hates abuse.. violence that is covered..

Regardless.. of the reasons if the people repent?? IS there not forgiveness from Our Father..
We are under the Abrahamic Covenant and the Covenant of Grace. What is the message of the Cross??
To me it is Mercy.. JESUS took my place.. Jesus took my shortcomings. HE DIED FOR US ALL.. He knows all things..
He knows each one of our hearts on this forum. Does He not??
Im not trying to be mockful here..
Psa 139:16Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
Regardless of the reasons.. Is there not Mercy?? Is there not forgiveness for this sin.. As Mr. Bill Pro quotes

Matthew...12:31 Therefore I say unto you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven

I am a believer who will always side on MERCy..
I believe the Lord forgives those who are truly repentant. Whether they married unsaved and then got saved or one goes toward the world and cheats, or sleeps with a man or woman..
This is dangerous on how we are splitting hairs..
I will always side on mercy.. I will always remember the STONE i carry.. God will judge us all and will lift one up and the other..
When I get to the other side (Hopefully) I would rather be chastised for being too Merciful than for being too judgmental..
Just my thoughts no disrespect intended.; I pray we can all agree to disagree.. for I am only walking in the anointing He has given me.. As a Daughter of the KING who has Mercy for me a sinner saved by His grace no matter what I have every done He has forgiven me.. I repent if I have disrespected JESUS; teachings.. I give Him permission to correct me if Im in err.
In Christ
Sister
Frannie

Wismar Articles (Dutch Anabaptist, 1554)

Article IV.
In the fourth place, if a believer and an unbeliever are in the marriage bond together and the unbeliever commits adultery, then the marriage tie is broken. And if it be one who complains that he has fallen in sin, and desires to mend his ways, then the brethren permit the believing mate to go to the unfaithful one to admonish him, if conscience allows it in view of the state of the affair. But if he be a bold and headstrong adulterer, then the innocent party is free--with the provision, however, that she shall consult with the congregation and remarry according to circumstances and decisions in the matter, be it well understood.

http://www.anabaptistwiki.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Wismar_Articles_(Dutch_Anabaptist,_1554)

Is the marriage bond less violable than the bond between a believer and Christ? Maybe unrelated to the thread and if so my apologies.

Justin Martyr A.D. 151

Justin Martyr was one of the great, early theologians and apologists for the Church. He had the distinction of presenting a defining explanation and defense of Christianity to Caesar and the Imperial Roman Senate.

His "Apology for the Christians”, written to refute charges of sedition to the Roman state, is a magnificent legal testimony of the power of early Christians to live Holy and pleasing lives in an evil and corrupted society. Justin was beheaded for refusing to sacrifice to pagan Gods.

Justin Martyr wrote:

"In regards to chastity, Jesus has this to say: ‘If anyone look at lust at a woman, he has already before God committed adultery in his heart.’ And, ‘Whoever marries a woman who has been divorced from another husband, commits adultery.’ "

"According to our teacher, just as they are sinners who contract a second marriage, even though it is in accord with human law, so also are they sinners who look with lustful desires at a woman. He repudiates not only one who actually commits adultery, but even one who wishes to do so; for not only our actions are manifest to God, but even our thoughts.” (First Apology 15)

Justin Martyr taught:

1. To indulge in lust is to be guilty of adultery of the heart.

2. Whoever marries a divorced person commits adultery.

3. Whoever contracts a second marriage is sinning against God. (while a former spouse lives)

4. God does not, and the Church must not, take into account human law when it is in violation of God’s law.

5. God judges motives and intentions, private thought life and actions. All is known and exposed to the God with which we have to do.

"Is the marriage bond less violable than the bond between a believer and Christ?"

__________________________________

According to the following verses there's a difference.

"For this cause a man will leave his father and mother, and will join to his wife, and the two will become one flesh, so that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Mark 10:7,8

"Do you not know that anyone who is united with a prostitute is one body with her? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh.” But the one united with the Lord is one spirit with him." 1 Corinthians 6:16,17

I'd venture to say as well that according to these verses the marriage bond is less violable.

Being one flesh is not equal to being one spirit. There's clearly a contrast being made in verses 16 and 17 of 1 Corinthians.

Now, for those who believe that a marriage is indissoluble, making any and all second marriages adulterous, there's inconsistency.

Not only do they make the bond between a believer and Christ less violable than the marriage bond, but make it so, to the degree of eternal irreconcilablility.

They do so in their believing that one who is Christ's, being one spirit with Him, may be eternally lost and cast into hell.

I believe Bro.Tim ask a very 'thought provoking' question .....

Re:
"Is the marriage bond less violable than the bond between a believer and Christ? Maybe unrelated to the thread and if so my apologies."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When we enter into a marriage covenant,..we know that it takes (2) to enter into this covenant.....
( binding covenant)

But doesn't it also take (2) to enter into the new covenant w/ The Lord, when we enter in by The Blood of Jesus,..into a relationship w/ Him?
( Binding covenant)

....
Am I seeing this wrong
Just thinking on this today,
------------------
elizabeth

Elizabeth said,

"When we enter into a marriage covenant,..we know that it takes (2) to enter into this covenant.....
( binding covenant)

But doesn't it also take (2) to enter into the new covenant w/ The Lord, when we enter in by The Blood of Jesus,..into a relationship w/ Him?
( Binding covenant)"

_________________________

A Covenant Indeed - A Covenant made between The Two Who are One - The Father and The Son

We receive our benefit not specifically by covenant, but by inheritance.

"For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance- now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.” Hebrews 9:15

Jesus and the Father made a covenant, and then by marriage (Romans 7:1-6) we received all that Christ received by covenant as our inheritance through His death, and then He came back from the dead to join us and make sure we got by inheritance everything He willed to us.

We see a clear example of covenant language in John 17:10,

"All I have is yours, and all you have is mine.”

"The Hebraic understanding of covenant entails two parties joining their lives. The covenant means that what one person owns the other person owns. This is similar to a modern marriage in which two people share all possessions. If a woman has a million dollar debt before she gets married, her husband will have a million dollar debt after they get married.”

Therefore John 17:10 is is an extremely clear indicator of Covenant Language between the Father and Son. - Harold Eberle

In Hebrews 9:15 Jesus is the mediator that received the New Covenant similar to how Moses was the mediator that received the old covenant, yet the New Covenant people are not partners, we are named as inheritors.

Savanah, has entered the word 'inheritance' ,.....requires much thought /
with The Word,...for insight, as to 'if' it differs or not from being married
( covenant) to Christ ..?

Would hope for some farther wisdom from others on this ,..as I prayerfuly consider and study what you have said, brother.

Sincerely,
-----------------🛐
elizabeth

Rom. 7:4

Therefore, my brothers, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit to God.

that ye should be married to another; or "that ye should be to another", or "be another's"; that is, that ye should appear to be so in a just and legal way; for they were another's, they were Christ's before by the Father's gift, and were secretly married to him in the everlasting covenant, before he assumed their nature, and in the body of his flesh bore their sins, satisfied law and justice, paid their debts, and so freed them from the power of the law, its curse and condemnation, or any obligation to punishment; all which was done in consequence of his interest in them, and their marriage relation to him; but here respect is had to their open marriage to him in time, the day of their espousals in conversion; to make way for which, the law, their former husband, must be dead, and they dead to that, that so their marriage to Christ might appear lawful and justifiable; who is very fitly described by him, who is raised from the dead; and is a living husband, and will ever continue so, will never die more; and therefore as the saints can never be loosed from the marriage bond of union between Christ and them, so they can never be loosed from the law of this husband; wherefore though they are dead to the law as a covenant of works, and as ministered by Moses, and are free from any obligation to it, as so considered, yet they are "under the law to Christ", 1 Corinthians 9:21; under obligation, by the ties of love, to obedience to it, and shall never be loosed from it. J. Gill

Covenant / Inheritance

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even 'TO HIM WHO IS RAISED from the dead, that we should 'bring forth fruit unto God'.
~~~~~~~~
(Bring forth fruit now unto The New Name that we have)

Thoughts along the way:....
This is what I am seeing thus far:

(We are now married to Him (Christ) who is raised from the dead)....

When we enter into a marriage covenant, with the bridegroom, we acquired His Name,...and God' Name which is The Word of God.

He has now given us His Name, which is The Word of God)....His Spirit, which He hath placed within us is ,The Spirit of God,..is The Word / Spirit....

..so we entered into The covenant w / God,...

Which is God' Name, ....which is Jesus' Name (as a Son,..Jesus 'INHERITED' His Fathers Name, ,...
But we, received His Name by 'Covenant marriage'

Jesus was / is the mediator of the new covenant,..that we could come to God,.The Father,..a covenant of marriage,..and He gave us His Name,...
(The Spirit / Word of God,....( He gave us Himself)

Please bear w /me and forgive me for rambling ,...

~~~~~~~
5 For 'when we were in the flesh', the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to 'bring forth fruit unto death'.

6 BUT NOW,...we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; 'THAT WE SHOULD SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, and not in the oldness of the letter.

(* server Him in this newness of Spirit that He has placed within us.)
~~~~~~~~~~
Doesn't the inheritance come as a result of being married to Christ ?
..........

🛐Thoughts,
--------------
elizabeth

Bro Blaine,
There are two things that came to mind after I read your post.

(1)
We can be prodigal,......

(2)
We do not denounce The Lord, but other things can become
our 'first' love......(I know this to be true, because I did this)
But God drawed me back to Him,..in a mighty way.

I, also believe we can be ''FULL' of The Holy Spirit, and can get 'LAX' in this area.....

It takes a 'Drawing close to God, and He will draw close to us.

Song of Songs 6:4,
I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine:....❤️

--------------------
elizabeth

Bro. Blaine:

I think we have to be sure to read the passages in Hebrews in the context of the writer and recipient of the letter. It was written to Jewish believers who were under immense pressure by their culture to abandon faith in Christ and return to the law. The writer is not talking about a person committing an act of sin and losing his salvation. He is talking about a person who totally abandons faith in Christ and returns to righteousness by law, the very thing that Christ put to death in his body on the cross. Returning to the law would be the ultimate affront to the blood of a new covenant.

So, yes, I would agree that it is possible to fall away, to lose ones salvation. But it is not going to be because we are divorced and remarried on this earth any more than it is going to be because we lied to someone or ill treated a brother because envy rose in our heart because of his new car. We will lose our salvation because our heart became hardened to the point that we renounced the blood of Christ and returned to our former dead works as our means of righteousness.

Not trying to muddy the water. But my understanding is one can fall away or even walk away from the gracious Covenant of the Lord Jesus Christ. But the one who is truly jointed to Him ia a saving relationship will certainly not want to.

Totally agree!

Something that has bothered me about this thread. It has been insinuated that if a person is divorced and remarried, that it might mean that this person cannot be forgiven and might go to hell as a result. I wonder then how divorce and remarriage is a sin greater than any other sin.

I will throw something out there that I am sure might be controversial, but something that I believe we have totally misunderstood from scripture. We read that an elder (meaning any overseer in the body of Christ) is to be the husband of one wife. We have assumed that this means someone who has not been divorced. Yet that is an assumption for which we must take pretty broad liberties in interpretation, because it is definitely not explicit, in fact, far from explicit. A full half of all commentaries I have ever read say that this means that a person who is living in polygamy is disqualified. I agree fully with this stance. This was common in the Jewish culture of Jesus day. The very nature of the statement leans that direction.

I know of several men who have been divorced in the past. Granted the divorces happened before they knew Christ. Yet these men are powerful pastors who have the fruit of the Holy Spirit growing bountifully in their lives and ministries.

Divorce is no less forgivable than any other sin.

But, one might say, if I preach this then my people will want to get divorces and marry other people. My reply would be, "Then you are preaching to a congregation that is not born again and does not know God at all. Their divorces would only be a manifestation of their spiritual condition as it stands right now. They would then divorce just as the remainder of those who do not know God. It would simply be sinners that are still sinning." If a person is born again by the Spirit of God, he will not consider divorce, as he will understand the significance of marriage.

Hope that is not too strong a statement, but I believe it is true. God is NOT for divorce. Divorce stands in direct opposition to the message of Romans 7:1-3. Marriage is sacred because it is a picture of Jesus and His bride. Divorce is sin. But divorce is not unforgivable, and it does not disqualify a person from being used by God any more than lying or stealing. However, a person who is truly born again will NOT desire divorce. How could he?

In my experience as a counselor at the Crises Pregnancy Center I had quite a few divorcees as clients.

In our counseling I would ask them about their being divorced, how do they feel about it? With no exception they all told me it was wrong. Then I would ask them why they think so. Then they would tell me, "you know what the Bible says", so I ask them, "what does it say?" With no exception they would quote the concept as found in Luke 16:18: "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery." NASB Also Mark 10:11.

I found it very insightful that people from the street - ignorant of deep theology, if you will - had a clearer understanding of what the scripture says on this issue. They were simple and to the point. Did they repent? Likely not, and neither did very many fornicators. Sin is so much fun...so they think.

BTW, I worked at this CPC for 15 years and think I have heard of every sin known to man and imagination. Rough world out there...

Sandra

"I found it very insightful that people from the street - ignorant of deep theology, if you will - had a clearer understanding of what the scripture says on this issue."

So, you think that those who are spiritually dead in sin, and who are devoid of the Spirit, have "... a clearer understanding of what the scripture says on this issue", than those who are filled with the Spirit, whether it be those here on the forum, or even the founders and leaders of your own Mennonite Church,and their Anabaptist contemporaries as well?

...and Eve was deceived by the devil, thinking that he had a clearer understanding than God!

I suppose some may refer to me as a strict Mennonite but when we make decisions we allow the Word to have the final say, regardless of what the early Anabaptist leaders would say. While we appreciate their willingness to stand against prevailing thought, they were still human and subject to error, just like moderns. In fact there is one doctrinal point Menno Simons held to that causes us to give some pause, but it cannot be denied that he gave a struggling and often fragmented group a sense of cohesiveness that resulted in strengthening a movement.

Yes, there is a modern 'conservative" Mennonite group who is altering its position on this issue based upon the Anabaptist writers and ignoring the clear teaching of the Word. They are not regarded as conservative anymore...

I have witnessed what happens when Mennonite churches become tolerant of MDR....they lose out quickly and before too long are like other modern churches.

I must say this....the question always arises: but what if one person was married to a divorced person the first time and then they divorced, is this person allowed to remarry? Many would say "yes" because the first union was not a Biblical one, but an adulterous one. This is the position we support.

Sandra

"I suppose some may refer to me as a strict Mennonite but when we make decisions we allow the Word to have the final say..."

...but they didn't allow the Word to have the final say, as ya'll do!

___________

"...we appreciate their willingness to stand against prevailing thought..."

Oh,so that's all they were doing!

____________

"...they were still human and subject to error, just like moderns."

But you and the other Mennonites are exceptions to this, as ya'll got this one down!

______________

"...ignoring the clear teaching of the Word."

All of us and those before us are guilty of this, according to Sandra and the elite conservatives!

_______________

"...like other modern churches."

Your indictment upon all churches, on a universal scale is signatory of exclusivism and maybe even phariseeism!

________________

"...but what if..."

But what if...you are wrong on this and "the position you support", because you are "human" and "subject to error", and are trying "to stand against prevailing thought".

Thanks for your time and consideration...

Greg, these are two burning ideas I've always had when reading these types of threads, I in no means am pointing a finger at just you when I say 'you' in my response. I tried to put, "those who believe like you," but that is just redundant each and every time. This is NOT personal, it was your response that lead to mine.

by sermonindex
Yes, I do believe God can convict couples to separate who were unlawfully and sinfully married.

by sermonindex
Only God can make it clear and give peace in the Holy Spirit.

My two cents about this topic...
God bless,
Lisa

Savannah,

Sarcasm...mmm, I had thought better of you...

Sandra

It is very odd that people do not get the point I made in my post two posts ago.

I do not see Menno Simons quoted much at all in Mennonite literature - I read more of it on non-Mennonite sites then I do in "Sword and Trumpet" or other Mennonite lit. This is the attitude of many moderate Mennonites - we appreciate what these fellows did and their willingness to stand amidst persecution but we do not consider their interpretation as having the final say in matters of Scriptural interpretation. (Check out Walter Beachy's talks on Anabaptists History here on SI. I know Walter personally.)

To suggest that we think we are superior is missing the point completely. To use the Anabaptist writers as a reference point in deciding how one should interpret scripture puts one on a fast track to become cultic and there are those that have. We do work to follow the example of looking to the WORD for our authority.

If this confuses people, so be it.

Sandra

Sandra,

mmm...if sarcasm is all that stands out to you, you've not checked your own heart in light of what was brought to your attention.

In your last post I detect some agitation in your spirit, behind your words.

Do you not believe that those here on SI, and these men of ages past, are "looking to the Word for their authority"?

Why not remove the word "Mennonite" from the sign outside the church building!

Others here are thinking, what I am posting. They're just nicer than me, and don't want to go on record and be seen as mean or intolerable. And that's ok.

It's beyond mean and intolerable to tell some dearly loved couples that their marriage is adulterous, because you hold to the Roman Catholic interpretation of indissolubility.

But...at least you're being consistent when you tell them that they must separate or face a fiery judgment of hell with all the other adulterers.

Savannah,

For your information, I had (now deceased) an uncle who was married a few years when his wife left him for another man and divorced him. Before too long he remarried to another woman, was married to her for 24 years.

While married to her they went to an Assembly of God Church, but in the meantime the Holy Spirit was convicting him about this relationship. The pressure got so severe he planned to commit suicide twice but God intervened every time by allowing someone steal his pistol that he had acquired to use to kill himself.

In time, he decided to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit and he left this woman, but leaving her property to keep her comfortable physically.

He died never having remarried again.

Granted, one cannot use this testimony to substantiate the principle that a couple living in adultery should separate, but you may be surprised how many times the Holy Spirit convicts people such. In my counseling at a CPC I have never had a divorcee defend her marriage to the man she is with. They told me it was wrong and that was without any input from me.

Me upset? I am grieved....

Sandra

Blaine,

The question of an innocent party needs defining. Some would say there ain't no innocent party; others would say if one party did not defile the marriage bed he/she is the innocent party.

I know it seems harsh to forbid remarriage to the "innocent party". But what does Jesus say? "Whosoever marries him (or her) that is divorced commits adultery". I did not write this, Jesus did. If it had been up to me I would have said it differently but this just proves I would not make a good god.

If you look at what divorce and remarriage has done to the American family, we are seeing it being destroyed right and left. In my own extended family there is a lot of divorces, innocent people remarrying. There are three things happening: 1. family line coming to an end in another generation; 2. single households with girls having babies with no husband in sight; 3. people resorting to perversion. Most of this was none existent 60 years ago in my family. Now it is commonplace.

How are we going to protect the sanctity of marriage? How are we going to assure that future generations will have their mom and dad raising their children? Have loving parents?

Sandra

Ginnyrose,
Reading your responses, a lot of questions came to my mind and I'm going to go a head and ask them, I am NOT attacking you (by any means). I'm really just wondering so please hear in my voice kindness...

by ginnyrose previously
In my counseling at a CPC I have never had a divorcee defend her marriage to the man she is with.

by ginnyrose previously
They told me it was wrong and that was without any input from me.

I'm just trying to lovingly point out that you may have thought there was no input by you when you could have unknowingly reeked of input but I could be wrong.

by ginnyrose
If you look at what divorce and remarriage has done to the American family...

Again, I mean no disrespect whatsoever, I just have unanswered questions.

God bless you,
Lisa

Sandra,

This woman I know got married at 18. The man she married seemed to be a very nice guy. After a couple of months of marriage, he got involved with some very bad people. He began to drink heavily. He'd come home drunk every weekend and beat his wife. This went on for over a year. He was finally arrested and convicted for raping and murdering several women. He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

When his wife visited him in prison, he confessed to her that he was bisexual. He sued her for a divorce so that he could marry his male lover he met behind bars.

Six months later the divorce was finalized. He married his male lover and has no contact with his ex-wife.

She's now 23 years old. She has repented of her sinful lifestyle and turned her life over to Christ.

She began attending a truly conservative church. After a couple of months going to the church she was asked to give her testimony. She shared her story, and the following week she received a phone call. Two of the leaders and their wives wanted to meet with her. She was invited to one of the couples homes for dinner. After dinner they asked about a young man she'd been seen talking with at the grocery store. She told them that he was a christian she recently had met at a church she visited that some of her relatives invited her to. She told them that he had expressed an interest in taking her out to dinner.

Over the next three hours the two couples informed her with Bibles open, that she is not eligible to be considering pursuing a relationship of any sort with this man because she is married in God's eyes, and that she'd be guilty of adultery if she were to remarry.

She left that evening in tears as they all had a time of prayer together.

What counsel do you have for this young woman Sandra? Or,for any man who'd be considering marrying her?

What counsel would you have, SI forum members?

I guess my question here is, will the divorced husband or wife that remarries, still make it into heaven? or is this an unpardonable sin? Yes, I just like to keep things simple so I can personally understand, I'm only a high school grad, with no master's degree from a divinity school.

Well I know I should not mention grace here, but O well here goes. Grace is God’s unmerited favor, If we did anything to earn it or deserve it, it is not grace. If God owes it to you because we're a pretty good person or we have tried to do the best we can, it is not grace. If God gives it to us because He foresaw that you would believe in Him of your own free will, it is not grace. Grace means that we get the opposite of what we deserve, we deserve God’s wrath because we have sinned against Him, instead, He saves you by His grace. Over and out...

by savannah
What counsel do you have for this young woman Sandra? Or,for any man who'd be considering marrying her?

by savannah
She was invited to one of the couples homes for dinner. After dinner they asked about a young man she'd been seen talking with at the grocery store.

Now, to bring up another ironic arm of this belief that we've discussed previously on this forum and that is (1) a person can have as many sexual partners as they want BEFORE they marry, (2) a spouse can mistreat, rape, beat their spouse, (3) spouse be gay or bisexual BUT as long as they never divorce that spouse, they're all good. This attitude boggles the mind and one reason why the world looks at us and thinks the church is nuts.

I knew a couple years ago, she was married and divorced her husband over infidelity and a few years later met a man who had been married 4 times before, she was going to be his 5th wife and every single person in that family said, "It won't last," (and I'm ashamed to say that I was one of those people). But it has lasted happily 35 years, they are part of the foundation of the church they go to and they are faithful.

Mark 16:20 says "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." If there are Godly signs following a remarriage, then people who are against remarriage need to be so careful about speaking against what God has blessed.

We have to remember that Jesus said, "every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Matt 12:36

God bless us all as we navigate these waters,
Lisa

How did people get married in the Bible times? Go to the courthouse buy a license and have a ceremony ? I thought when you had sex with a person you became one flesh even if you had not been to the courthouse to buy the license and had the ceremony ? II stay off of SI then as soon as I visit again there is always a post about the unpardonable sin of divorce. Makes me terribly sad for the people being counseled by legalism and not The riches of God’s mercy, love, hope and grace.

noone...I stay off of SI then as soon as I visit again there is always a post about the unpardonable sin of divorce. Makes me terribly sad for the people being counseled by legalism and not The riches of God’s mercy, love, hope and grace.

Savannah,

I got a story worse then yours.

I had a client one day. She was 16 years old and because she was fornicating her parents pressured the boy to marry their daughter. They took them to the JP who married them and they went their separate ways, never "consummating" their marriage - never mind what they did before the vows because now she was afraid she was pregnant. The husband never made any contact with his bride after the vows were said. Never.

I have no clue what happened to this girl. My personal opinion is that what the parents did in this case was utterly stupid. Is she now allowed to remarry? Granted this kind of situation is not normal, but had a client who was married for three weeks and decided she wanted to divorce her husband because he was so irresponsible. Can she remarry?

Dealing with these situations just about makes me a Calvinist...God must choose some to be saved and not all. SIGH

Sigh.

A body can get so stuck in working with these difficult situations and then fail to see the bigger picture to work at preventing more of the same.

Church people have allowed all these "exceptions" to diminish the understanding of the permanence of marriage, opening the door to all these people thus filling their pews with people who view life through logic and not faith (obedience). In response the church has become like evil society and has lost its light. Homes are fragmented, single parenting has become the norm because males prefer to act like studs instead of dads who take their job seriously. People think they deserve to be happy regardless what it takes and don't you dare rain on my parade in my pursuit of happiness! The youth are not taught moral purity and how to abstain from sexual sin. Prevailing culture is anathema to the will of GOD and people would rather make room for moral failures then prevent it.

That is philosophy. But what does Matthew say? In chapter 5 Jesus discusses the law "ye have heard ...but I say unto you..." Jesus takes the law and expands it, explains what it really means.

Matthew 5:27 he takes this law "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY" and then proceeds to explain what adultery is. In verse 28: who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Lusting with the eyes is adultery.

Verse 32: everyone who divorces his wife....makes her commit adultery. Divorcing your spouse is adultery EXCEPT in the case of unchasity, then it is not adultery.

Verse 32: "whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery." Marrying a divorced person is adultery.

Context, sir.....context...

Do I like it? It does not matter how much I like it, the word is still the WORD...and life is short. Eternity is much longer. Marriage does not guarantee happiness, but serving God has its rewards and how can one risk his eternity destiny in pursing happiness as the flesh desires and put your soul at risk of being sent to hell?

Sandra

At the church I attended there were three men in leadership positions. Each of the men had large families. No less than 8 children each.

Each of the men had large bank accounts as well. They each were the owners of thriving businesses. They were very generous with the money they had. They would give to any in need.

They would purchase houses and property, and help families who were struggling, by providing them jobs and a place to live.

One of the families they helped had five children. The three men had paved the way for this family by moving them from out of state, all expenses paid, so they could join the church. They gave them a house and gave the man a job.

After several months of settling in with their new church family, one of the men in leadership received a phone call from a church member of the church this couple used to attend. He asked how they were all doing and told the man what an amazing testimony of the grace of God this couple was.

He went on to tell this man that he never thought that this man, now the father of five, would have ever recovered from his past hurts. When the church leader asked what he meant, he said that the woman who he was married to over 10 years ago took all his money, divorced him, and married a man she had met online.

After this phone call the three men in leadership met to discuss this, and to decide how they should handle it. It was decided that they should meet together with the man and his wife. So they arranged for their wives to babysit the couple's children.

They met together with Bible's open and went through the Scriptures to show this couple that they were living in adultery due to his previous marriage. They instructed them that they must separate, but that he could and should still be part of the children's lives.

The man reluctantly found an apartment nearby and moved in. He read the Scriptures he had been shown, over and over again as he spent his nights alone in his apartment. Not being fully persuaded that the Lord's words applied to every and all divorce and remarriages, he explained to his wife that he was not convinced that the Lord saw their marriage as no more than adultery.

When the men in leadership heard he'd been questioning this teaching, they went to his wife and met with her, along with their own wives. They met each evening for several hours at a time with Bible's open.

Not long after these meetings she informed her husband that she was convinced that the Scriptures applied to their situation and that she would no longer discuss these things with him.

He appealed to the leadership, but to no avail. He told them how very lonely he was in his apartment night after night, and how he missed his family. They told him that they understood, but that this was the Lord's will and that they'd pray for him.

One Sunday morning at church, the men in leadership asked the mother of five where the father of her children was this morning, as they did not see him there. She said that she hadn't heard from him over the weekend and was expecting to see him there at church.

That day several phone calls were made in attempt to contact him. But no one got an answer. The three men decided to go to his apartment and speak to him in person. When they arrived they found his car parked in the driveway, so they knocked on the door. When they got no answer, they looked in the window and noticed a Bible open on the coffee table. They knocked and knocked, but still no answer. So one of the men reached for the doorknob and turned it. To their surprise it was unlocked, so they opened the door a bit and called his name. Getting no answer, they entered and began looking for him as they called out his name.

One of the men opened the door to the closet in the bedroom. He called loudly to the other two men, and they came rushing into the room. They stood there in awe at what they saw. Their search was over, and their curiosity had come to an end. He'd hung himself.

Sandra, sad story. Personally I would say, marriage is marriage, if the boy or the girl was so weak they allowed the parents to pressure them into marriage, that should have never happened. As you know God doesn't elaborate on marriage and divorce, he's pretty straight forward about it, so it's simple enough in my opinion even most really young folks probably understand. If God didn't list a scenario if this happen, my guess is they were married, and should be held accountable to what God say's in his word, about marriage and remarriage. I'll say this again, divorce is not an unforgivable sin, as some holier than thou Christians might like it to be, and probably the ones that have not had to deal with divorce in their family. The best answer to your question, "can she remarry" well yes she can, we 'can" do anything we want, will she suffer consequences as a result of remarrying? I don't know, but I do know this, God is tough, and wants us to try and live according to his word, but I would say this also, God's not blind...

Savannah,

This is what happens when one puts their theology ahead of following the Holy Spirit and allowing the Holy Spirit (not themselves) to guide a person/couple.

Sad, so sad. I believe these 3 couples will have blood on their hands.

I love you all in Christ, even though we do not agree on this subject and I would like to point out one more verse. A lot of you hammer on what Jesus said about the sin of adultery, but conveniently leave this verse out...

Matt 5: 27 You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

By this one verse alone, all men have been condemned because they've ALREADY committed (the act of) adultery in his heart.

If there is no mercy or forgiveness for the remarried, can you please explain to me why there is mercy for the husband who commits adultery in his heart???

This is really getting deep now, I’m taking it a little deeper. :-)

"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart”.

Does this mean even a married man? Because I must have lust after my wife thousands of times. It does say anyone "I'm anyone" who looks at a woman to lust after her "my wife was a woman”. So did I commit adultery even though I was married? Please provide scriptures, not opinions to my question.

"By this one verse alone, all men have been condemned because they've ALREADY committed (the act of) adultery in his heart."

8 verses before Jesus said what He did in verse 28, He said this,

"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Herein lies the key to understanding verse 28. The Jews saw the Law as only going so far as the commital of the outward physical act. Whereas, the Law was intended to reveal the desperately wicked and deceitfully evil heart of man.

Jesus words in verse 28 reflects this truth. Sin is a heart problem where the root lies. His intention was to show these self-righteous men that just because they hadn't committed the physical act of adultery, nevertheless they were guilty.

And the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You fools! Did not he who made the outside make the inside also? Luke 11:39,40

The sin of David with Bathsheba is not the same as the man who looks with lust. It may very well lead to the act, as we know it did with David. But anyone who insists it is the same, would have to introduce me to one woman who conceived as a result of a man looking and lusting at her.

The point Jesus was making was that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. If Christ is not your righteousness, then you must think you have a righteousness of your own to offer to God and enter the Kingdom of Heaven upon such grounds. Such is the case with many who deceive themselves, missing the truth of salvation being 100% God's grace. To them, Christ's death becomes of no effect.

If I thought of having all that money in the bank, and I looked at it with lust as I saw the vault open one afternoon as I was cashing my $800 check for that week, would I be handcuffed by the officer upon attempting to exit the building? Would the judge sentence me and require me to do time as a convicted bank robber?

This illustration serves to show that the two are not the same. Although I'm guilty, having a sinful heart to lust for that which is not mine, I won't be doing the time because I haven't committed the crime.

I may not be dying of some STD in the hospital as the guy lying in the hospital bed next to me, but I may be lying and dying in that hospital bed from the injuries suffered from that jealous husband who saw me looking with lust at his wife.

If I dreamed last night that I had married the woman of my dreams, upon waking would I be guilty of adultery if I did eventually marry a woman I met the following year who was not that woman in my dream?

All sin is equally sin, but all sin is not equal.

I agree that all sin is not equal, there is even scripture that proves that. I think this scripture would be a good example "In John 19:11, Jesus says to Pilate, "…he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.” I believe Jesus is saying here that some sins are considered greater. I agree that all sins may be unequal in the degree to which they offend God, and harm others, but I also believe all sins are equal in their ability to be forgiven.

Blood is on their hands as far as I am concerned. Disgusting.

Blaine,

I'd be able to tell more stories of the same nature, but it would not do anyone a bit of good.

These two alone say enough!

To answer your question about the two incidents...the answer is no, they weren't in the same church.

In regard to the woman, I can't say that I know what ever became of her.

As far as the three elders, I can't tell you that I witnessed any heart-felt emotion by them. If they did, it was behind closed doors at home, with their wives. Of course they expressed grief and some emotion, as they did when they replied they "understood", when the man told them how lonely he was each night in his apartment.

As for the wife, she must have been torn in pieces, but I honestly can't say I witnessed it myself.

The tragedy and incredulity of believing in indissolubility!

"If error is harmless, then truth is useless." CHS

Last year my family and I went back to the state we moved from, for the first time in 12 years. We saw some of those same men who were involved in the two incidents I mentioned.

One of the men had a definite change of heart. I was quite taken back when I saw him though. Reason being, because he now has Parkinsons Disease. He has led the church in a direction where they're more compassionate to the remarried.

One of the other men was seated in the same room. But he could not join in the conversation. Due to his condition his wife lives separate from him. His son and daughter-in-law care for him daily. He lives with them. He suffers from a severe case of Parkinsons Disease as well.

I was surprised to hear of the fate of two other men who were involved. They each died of cancer. Another man and his family, with the exception of one son, were killed in a car wreck.

None of these men are/were old men. Others I knew who had been staunch defenders of the separating of families, had had a change of heart and were now gracious rather than graceless.

But many others I know, are yet on the warpath, to make sure that they let any remarried couple that they may meet, know that they are living in adultery.

I'm done here now!

Carry on my fellow soldiers of the cross...

Brother Blaine,

This has been a confusing topic for me for a few years now; I was always under the impression that I could not get remarried (until death of my ex spouse). I am not looking for an answer that tickles my ears, but I truly wonder if the topic of divorce and remarriage has been viewed incorrectly for so long because of the law (before Jesus fulfilled it), and the gentiles (Paul speaking of divorce/remarriage).

Are Christians truly forbidden from getting remarried if their unbelieving spouse desires a divorce and remarried? Again, not looking for an ear tickling answer, because I feel each should seek the Lord, but I’m asking for clarity within scriptures. I’ve heard both sides of the topic.

What are your thoughts?

Lisa,

I would encourage you to carefully consider the verses that you submitted.

Acts 10
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

This verse seems to me to have nothing to do with adultery or any other form of sexual immorality. Peter did not see a sheet with a group of prostitutes on it. What relationship does this verse have to do with Jesus' teaching on marriage and adultery?

Acts 13:11 And that is what some of you WERE. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

How can someone be guilty of a sin and still be justified?

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: and by him ALL THAT BELIEVE are justified FROM ALL THINGS, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Do you mean that any sin someone is living in becomes not sin anymore at some point because of what Jesus did? If so, that seems so contrary to Jesus' whole message. Jesus wasn't whitewashing tombs, he was cleaning out dead men's bones. Jesus wasn't forgiving sin without setting people free from sin, he was setting people free so that they could be right with God and also be forgiven.

James 2
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and MERCY REJOICES against judgment.

I'm not sure what you meant by including this verse but I think this gets to the heart of the issue. Unfortunately, many people want God's mercy shown to them more than they want to show mercy to others. This is the heart of the problem with remarriage while one's spouse (however, rotten they may have been) is still living: it is a fundamental departure from Jesus' radical teaching on love, mercy and forgiveness.

Why would I have to give my last piece of clothing to someone wrongfully suing me, who I may barely even know but be able to refuse to reconcile with my wife because she was unfaithful? Why would I have to pray for a man who is torturing and killing my family, asking God to have mercy on him, and yet give up on the woman God has joined me together with and go get another one?

If I am unfaithful to my wife because she was first unfaithful to me, I am inviting Jesus to judge me by the same unmerciful standard that I have judged her and I can be sure I will get exactly what I deserve.

Joel

I want to respond to the comments I read in this thread about divorce and remarriage being the unpardonable sin.

I fail to see the reasoning behind this argument, which I have heard before.

Are homosexuality, or drunkenness, or murder, or theft, or greed, or idolatry the unpardonable sin? Of course not! However, to be reconciled to God requires a man or woman to forsake these sins (i.e. stop doing them). Just being sorry that you are committing them is not good enough.

What makes the sin of adultery any different? Why does a man who takes a mistress on the side (without getting a divorce) have to forsake that to truly repent? If such a man then gets a paper from the state saying he is no longer married, how does that somehow make his adultery something that doesn't have to be repented of?

Acts 10
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

by Joel
This verse seems to me to have nothing to do with adultery or any other form of sexual immorality. Peter did not see a sheet with a group of prostitutes on it. What relationship does this verse have to do with Jesus' teaching on marriage and adultery?

Thank you for your concern. I'm at work so I have time to respond to only one point.

There seems to be 2 camps, one who hyper-focus on the sin of remarriage and believe that there is no forgiveness for staying with the remarried partner and then the other camp who believes that God doesn't want two or families tore apart, they can repent of adultery and it is forgiven therefore they can stay in the marriage and they believe that ALL sin is forgiven except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

I reside in the latter camp. And no, the verse does not apply to divorce/remarriage per se but how it applied in my post is, "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common," ...what God has forgiven (cleansed), do not call common (uncleaned or unforgiven).

Peter was one of the original 12 and Jesus had to tell inform him of that in a vision. Peter did not even believe that Gentiles could be saved, but did that stop Gentiles from being saved? Only in Peter's eyes (belief system) but it did not stop Jesus from accepting them into the fold. Until Peter saw them converted by the evidence of speaking in tongues did he realize God had accepted them and would accept other Gentiles. He had a face to face encounter with the Holy Spirit!

Only will the first camp believe that truly ALL sins are forgiven and that remarriage is not a perpetual sin of adultery when they too have a face to face encounter with the Holy Spirit. What God has cleansed, do not call uncommon.

God bless you,
Lisa

by Lysa
Acts 13:11 And that is what some of you WERE. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

How can someone be guilty of a sin and still be justified?

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: and by him ALL THAT BELIEVE are justified FROM ALL THINGS, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

By Joel
Do you mean that any sin someone is living in becomes not sin anymore at some point because of what Jesus did? If so, that seems so contrary to Jesus' whole message. Jesus wasn't whitewashing tombs, he was cleaning out dead men's bones. Jesus wasn't forgiving sin without setting people free from sin, he was setting people free so that they could be right with God and also be forgiven.

Jesus came to do exactly what you said AND more. Do you and others realize that not in one place has the Bible EVER said that "marriage” is a sin, any marriage? But it does say, "repent and be forgiven.” That is a theme thorough-out our Bible as well.

by Lysa
James 2
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and MERCY REJOICES against judgment.

By Joel
I'm not sure what you meant by including this verse but I think this gets to the heart of the issue. Unfortunately, many people want God's mercy shown to them more than they want to show mercy to others. This is the heart of the problem with remarriage while one's spouse (however, rotten they may have been) is still living: it is a fundamental departure from Jesus' radical teaching on love, mercy and forgiveness.

But from reading the rest, it’s seems (I could be wrong) that you are inferring that I am taking liberties with Scripture? :) :) That’s ok, I will always side on the side of forgiveness and mercy, always. Yes, Jesus did say it was adultery but like I stated, I believe with the belief system of the-unforgivable-sin-of-remarriage that the whole concept of repentance and forgiveness that is in the Bible is overlooked.

Remarriage is a HUGE matter, and yet somehow Jesus and the Holy Spirit failed to include specific instructions about divorcing your current spouse?? This is just my personal opinion but saying that Jesus inferred that they must leave their current covenant marriage to be reconciled with the first, to me THAT is taking liberties with the Scripture!

Let me be clear, I believe that Christians who are remarried can repent, dedicate their lives to Christ and each other and STAY married to one another and it will not be a continuous sin of adultery. There I said it, I don't believe Jesus will stone me! :) :) :)

God bless us all as we are trying to be the Christ’s hands and feet to this generation,
Lisa