The First Resurrection

...I started a discussion on this very subject. The bible says what it says and you got it correct. It's not mysterious, it just says what it says. Where we have problems is that others of renoun have taught differently. I'll take the Word of God over the teaching of man.This scripture just blows "pre-trib" rapture out of the water as well. There can only be one "first resurrection". This is clearly at the end of the trib. So it is then that the dead in Christ shall rise first, not at the beginning of the trib.If someone else knows how to find the other thread here, I'd appreciate you putting up the link. Thanks.In Him,lahry

Be careful with this one. Yes it means first. But these are jews spoken of here. These have an anointing and sanctification from God. If this were not so, you could just throw out the rest of the bible as meaningless. We are not about self righteousness. We are about faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified. So let Him, the author and finisher of our faith unfold all of this the way He chooses. Be careful.In Him,Lahry

Smokey said:Rev. 14.4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.This verse calls the 144,000 firstfruits. This means first right?xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStevers response:Christ is the first of the Firstfruits. He is the first man resurrected from the dead. All believers will be resurrected as well, and be part of the Firstfruits (of the Resurrection)- THE FIRST RESURRECTION.Jesus resurrected from the dead on Sunday, the feast of Firstfruits. This is what Jesus Christ had to say about those who are resurrected into eternal life- they are sexless, like the Angels. They are "virgins" in their new resurrected bodies, to say the least:Matthew 22:30 " 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."Also, since they are from the 12 Tribes, they will all be Jewish believers, that believed in Messiah, and have been resurrected from the dead towards the end of the 7 year tribulation. When did they originally die? The text is not clear if they had died long ago, or during the Tribulation.All Christian believers will be raptured before the Tribulation, and will also be part of the Firstfruits of the resurrection. But this reference in Revelation 14 (the 144,0000) is in regards to Jewish believers in Jesus Christ, the Messiah. There will also be another resurrection (part of the "First Resurrection") after the Tribulation, for all believers (many of them being Jews) that have been martyred during the Tribulation--This is also part of the Firstfruits (of the Resurrection)- all part of the First Resurrection, starting with Christ! The Firstfruits of the Resurrection is a continuous feast, started on the 17th of Abib, Sunday, the Feast of Firstfruits, the first day of the week when Jesus Resurrected, over 2,000 years ago!God bless,SteverP.S.Revelation 20:3-5 explains the Resurrection (again, part of the "First Resurrection") that takes place right after the Tribulation, afer Satan is thrown in the bottomless pit:3. And cast him (Satan) into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Lahry wrote:This scripture just blows "pre-trib" rapture out of the water as well. There can only be one "first resurrection". This is clearly at the end of the trib. So it is then that the dead in Christ shall rise first, not at the beginning of the trib.If someone else knows how to find the other thread here, I'd appreciate you putting up the link. Thanks.In Him,lahryxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:The Firstfruits of the Resurrection:1 Cor 15:20:20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and BECOME THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT. 21. For since by man came death, by MAN (JESUS CHRIST) CAME ALSO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.22. For as in Adam all die, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.23. But every man in his OWN ORDER: CHRIST THE FIRSTFRUITS; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.In regards to the pre-tribulation rapture being in error, then please explain to me why Christ has to come down and separate the sheep from the goats? They would automatically be separated at the rapture- the dead in Christ rising first, and those (in Christ) that are alive next? Who would be left behind but the Non-believers? There would be no need to separate the Sheep from the Goats if this event occured at the SAME TIME AS THE RAPTURE.1 Thes 4:16-1716. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.The Firstfruits is the resurrection from the dead of believers in Jesus Christ. Those that believed God and the Messiah to come that lived and died before the Cross, as well as those that believed God and the Messiah that came, and lived and died ( and some still living) after the Cross will all be RESURRECTED IN THEIR OWN ORDER.God bless,Stever

You are not holding fast to what is written in my humble opinion. You are holding on to what you have been taught.Paul said, the dead in Christ will rise first. 99.9999% of the "believers" in this country will tell you that these are everyone who has died a believer since Jesus rose from the dead. Is that so? Most will tell you that this is at the rapture of the church and at the beginning of the trib. Is that what it says?How many "first resurrections" can there be? The one in Rev. 20 is clearly after the trib. It clearly defines who will be resurrected. The rest will have to wait for the end of the millineum. That's what the bible says. Most of what you say cannot be supported by scripture and tied to a "pre-trib" event. The bible simply does not say that. To anyone who wants to dig it up, the history of "pre-trib" rapture can easily be traced back to man, about the 16th or 17th century. Before that, it was not heard of or taught anywhere. None of the early church "fathers" mentioned it. I admonish you both in love, let the Holy Spirit through what the bible says mold and fashion your theology. You'll be glad and blessed that you did. Hugs in Christ Jesus,Lahry

Lahry said:Paul said, the dead in Christ will rise first. 99.9999% of the "believers" in this country will tell you that these are everyone who has died a believer since Jesus rose from the dead. Is that so? Most will tell you that this is at the rapture of the church and at the beginning of the trib. Is that what it says?Stever's response:Lahry, who exactly is Christ? Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the seed of the woman. As far as your statement that I am only spewing out here the doctrine of men, I have to disagree with you. The Doctrine that I have provided here comes directly from the Old and the New Testament. Most Christians spend no time in the Old Testament, but Christ, as well as the Disciples used the Old Testament as doctrinal proof that Jesus Christ of Nazareth was the Messiah, the "seed of the woman" that was prophesized throughout the Old Testament. Christ said "in the volume of the Book (the entire Old Testament) it is written of ME!We are saved by ????? Faith in Jesus Christ. Old Testament believers in the Messiah were accounted to be righteous (saved)----How???? By believing God and the Messiah to come.We who live after the Cross are only saved by the works of one man, Jesus Christ the God Man. We perform no "works" to be saved. We are saved by our belief and faith in the works of Jesus Christ. That is what sanctifies us, that is what saves us. We today are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, witnesses that are ALL Old Testament Saints, Old Testament Believers in the Messiah to come. Men like Moses, Abraham, King David, Samuel, Jonah, Isaiah. Do you consider your walk with God today to be on equal footing with their walk? I only wish that I had the walk of David, or Abraham, or Moses. How about you, do you feel the same?Do you remember, after the crucifixion & resurrection about how Christ led "captivity captive"? Ephesians 4:8-10 " 8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"These people held captive are believers in the Messaih to come, that had died and descended to Abraham's Bosom. He spent 3 days and 3 nights down there witnessing to them, and took them all to heaven with him. Paul tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This situation could not take place until sin was dealt with, until sin was paid for in full. Once that happened one of the first things He (Christ) did was to bring the believers from the Old Testament back to heaven with Him. When we die, if we do so before the Rapture, then we will be immediately in His presence as well, right along all of the Old Testament believers- Samson, Jepthae, Noah, Abel and others.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxLahry said:How many "first resurrections" can there be? The one in Rev. 20 is clearly after the trib. It clearly defines who will be resurrected. The rest will have to wait for the end of the millineum. That's what the bible says. Most of what you say cannot be supported by scripture and tied to a "pre-trib" event. The bible simply does not say that. Stever's response:Again, you are not understanding what I said and the Bible Verses I quoted to back it up. There is only one "First Resurrection" to eternal life. Christ is part of the First Resurrection and started it---we after Him are part of it as well. To make it more understandable, the First Resurrection is an EVENT that started with Christ resurrecting from the dead (to eternal life), and will end with the last person resurrected from the dead and raised to eternal life. This "resurrection to eternal life" takes place at different times, but they are all part of the same EVENT:1 Cor 15:20:20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and BECOME THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT. 21. For since by man came death, by MAN (JESUS CHRIST) CAME ALSO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.22. For as in Adam all die, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.23. But every man in his OWN ORDER: CHRIST THE FIRSTFRUITS; A F T E R W A R D (afterward) they that are Christ's at his coming.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Lahry said:To anyone who wants to dig it up, the history of "pre-trib" rapture can easily be traced back to man, about the 16th or 17th century. Before that, it was not heard of or taught anywhere. None of the early church "fathers" mentioned it. Stever's response:A thorough read of 1 Thessalonians reveals that Paul wrote this letter to them because of the tremendous persecution that they were going through and their own belief that they had missed the Rapture. Paul himself mentions the rapture here, to the Church at Thessalonica, and tells them not to worry, it is a future event. Please note that this event is not tied to the end of the Tribulation or to end-time events, like you have suggested above. It is an event that can take place at any moment. The Christian is told to keep his eyes on Jesus. The reason for that is the rapture can take place at any time. We are not told to look for the Antichrist, for the re-building of the Temple, or any other events that take place during the Tribulation.Paul tells them that they will be delivered from the wrath to come (the Great Tribulation):1 The 1: 10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.Paul tells them that the rapture will come before the beginning of the "Day of the Lord":1 Thes 5:2 " 2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."Paul re-assures them again that God has not appointed them (believers) to the wrath to come (the Great Tribulation): 1 Thes 5:9-11 "9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."Paul admonishes them, and tells them that they should not be ignorant (because they have been ignorant-thus the purpose of this entire letter to them) of this event, that he (Paul) has already taught tehm before:13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.Many wonderful Christian believers (John F. Walvoord being one of them) confuse the separation of the sheep and the goats with the rapture. This event (the separation of the sheep and the goats) takes place at the end of the Tribulation, when Christ comes as a Thief, to kill and destroy (hardly sounds like the glorious event of the Rapture, does it?). The ones taken are the ones (the goats)that will be judged at the Great White Throne, at the end of the 1,000 reign. These are the people that are destroyed by Christ when He comes again to rule and reign on the earth. The ones that are left (the Sheep)will be people of flesh and blood, who came to belief in the Messiah during the Tribulation, and are still alive at the end of the Tribulation (probably most of them will be Jews, who have been supernaturally protected by God) who will enter the millennial reign with Christ for 1,000 years. These are the people of flesh and blood that will not die during this period and will have many, many, many children- billions in fact.XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxGod bless,Steverp.s. The Doctrine of men? The doctrine of men such as Westcott & Hort and other Bible "Scholars" & "Textural Critics" have really been nothing more than infidels and are the ones that have destroyed our understanding of the Bible. The bible is 66 Books written by 40 authors over one thousand five hundred years and are totally consistent and inspired by God. Every Book of the Bible is inspired.Sincerely,Stever

Thank you sir for your post. I almost agree with Roady in that this kind of discussion rarely produces edification. I would ask one favor of you. God back over your post and see how many times you applied the word "rapture" to the scriptures you listed that do not have this word in them. That is searching for scripture to support your doctrine. The old and the new testament both teach of the second coming of Christ. Only one second coming, that being at the end of the tribulation. If you would but consider all the scripture you posted in light of this awesome event and it's revealed time table, you will see the harmony within it all. While it is true that some prophecy is not so easy to fully understand, this scripture in Rev 20 to me is very clear, in it's timing and in it being the "first" resurrection, not "a" resurrection. I don't doubt your zeal or sincerity. I just think you are sincerely wrong and are having difficulty accepting what the bible clearly states as fact. I was raised in religion, where traditions of men had precident over the Holy Bible. Once I read the bible for myself, I had to make a choice, tradition or bible. I chose bible and have never regretted my choice. I dont' know just how it's all going to pan out. But this I do know, it will all come to pass, just like the bible says. And when it says "first resurrection" and this event is clearly written after the tribulation period, I believe it means just that. God bless you and thank you for your comments.In Christ Jesus,Lahry

Lahry said:Thank you sir for your post. I almost agree with Roady in that this kind of discussion rarely produces edification. Stever's response:Dear Lahry:The Pre-Trib, Post-Trib Rapture dispute has been going on for generations. The majority of the Christian body holds to the Pre-Trib position. But, who needs to argue over something that has nothing to do with our salvation, and appears to be impossible for some to reconcile.I still have a question that I posted earlier, that you have never answered, and would appreciate a reply:In regards to the pre-tribulation rapture being in error, then please explain to me why Christ has to come down and separate the sheep from the goats ? They would automatically be separated at the rapture- the dead in Christ rising first, and those (in Christ) that are alive next? Who would be left behind but the Non-believers? There would be no need to separate the Sheep from the Goats if this event occured at the SAME TIME AS THE RAPTURE.God bless,Stever

Smokey said:The only issue is the timing of this event... I believe that the pre-tribulation rapture "theory" is just a repeat of the original lie of saten found in Gen.3.4. Stever's response:So, I guess you are saying here that the entire book of 1 Thessalonians can be thrown in the ash can? Have you taken the time to read and study it? It involves new revelation that Paul has been provided by Jesus Christ. The second coming and the rapture are not one and the same event. At the 2nd coming Christ comes with His saints to the earth. At the rapture, He comes to get his saints---his saints meet him in the air and he does not come down to the earth.Paul refers to the Doctrine that he teaches as MY DOCTRINE:2 Timothy 3:10" 10. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,"2 Timothy 3:16-17 " 16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."Paul had a face to face encounter with the risen Christ on the Damascas Road. He was taught by Jesus Christ, face to face for 3 years- 1st in Arabia and then to Damascas- read/study Galatians 1:12-18"12. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14. And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 15. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days."The point is, this is new revelation, not found in the Old Testament. There is Old Testament teaching about a type of snatching away by force (the Rapture)---when Enoch was walking with God, and then he was not, because God took him. This is really the only "picture" or "Type teaching" of the rapture. Some try to say that the Ark is a picture of the rapture, but it is not. It is a picture of what happened to Shadrack, Meschack & Abedingo in the firery furnace, and also a picture of what will happen to the Jews that will be supernaturally protected by God during the Tribulation.The Rapture is the complete snatching away of the dead in Christ first, and then the living in Christ, that are snatched up to be with the Lord, forever.At the 2nd coming Christ comes with His saints because they are already with Him in heaven:Zech 14:5-7: 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE. 6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.jUDE 1:14-15 " 14. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS, 15. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.XXXXXXXXXXSmokey said:If you have a "church" that believes that they will avoid this time of trouble , and go to heaven before trouble starts, you get a "church" like we have now, FAT AND LAZY. Roadsign, you admonished me earlier about basing my question on only one verse of scripture, and not taking into account other similar occurances, I now ask you to do the same thing, and think on these observations on the past workings of God.Stever's response:So, you are saying that Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit is not in control of His own Church? Sounds like you believe that flesh (the power of the will of the believer, not the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit that indwells all believers) has power to perform miracles, to raise the dead, heal the sick, and cast down strongholds?Are we, as Christians supposed to be tough, and strong, and work out with weights, and be in shape? Is all our power in our flesh, or is all of it found in Christ?At the end times, my Bible tells me there will be a falling away. For the past 40 years we (the World) has been in a free fall. It really has nothing to do with the power of our will, or our belief or non-belief in a Pre-Tribulation rapture., or anything else that is in our control. Have you ever read about early America and the Great Awakening? Was that the result of the works of George Whitefield, or was it the result of the works of the Holy Spirit who anointed him.That, my friend, is something to ponder over.God bless,Stever

I still have a question that I posted earlier, that you have never answered, and would appreciate a reply:In regards to the pre-tribulation rapture being in error, then please explain to me why Christ has to come down and separate the sheep from the goats ? They would automatically be separated at the rapture- the dead in Christ rising first, and those (in Christ) that are alive next? Who would be left behind but the Non-believers? There would be no need to separate the Sheep from the Goats if this event occured at the SAME TIME AS THE RAPTURE.God bless,SteverYou are so close, it's almost forrest and trees kind of view. Why would Christ have to seperate the sheep and the goats? Because they have not yet been seperated. When will this occur? At the end of the rapture. Those who are His will rise up into eternal life and those who are not will be lost eternally. Do you think that at "pre-trib" there will be an assembly of "goats" and they will respond "Lord, when did we see you naked"? I don't. But it can fit at the end of the trib, or perhaps even at the end of the millineum. I just can't make it fit at the beginning. You may be right, but what if you're not. What then? See, when you realize that there is only one second coming of Jesus Christ, and one first resurrection, it's not difficult at all to understand the chronological order of events. Jesus comes to seperate us from the lost and reign for a thousand years. He shuts up satan, raises the dead, and gathers those that are His, that is, those who are alive, and those who gave up their lived during the trib for their profession of faith in Christ Jesus. These are the ones who will reign with Him for a thousand years, and the bible clearly says so. Will the dead in Christ include every saint that has died previously? Perhaps. But the Word does not say this. God is not confused, nor is He dismayed. All of these things will happen just as He chooses and probably in some very surprising ways. If Jesus takes the church away tonigh, I'm going with Him. You will probably testify that you are too, and by your testimony I would agree, though my agreement matters nought. But what if the second coming of Jesus is post-trib? Will you have the faith it is going to require to hold fast till "the end"? Will I? I pray we do. How is that faith developed? By waiting for the trip to begin? I think not. I think it must be matured now, while there is yet time. Finally, rapture will mean little to those who are lost today without Christ. Many people here in this country left home this morning and will not return home this evening. Are they ready? Their personal rapture will take place today. Since no man has a promise on tommorrow, you and I may be among them. We must live our lives like today is our last, and the only passion we possess is that of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. To God be the glory, now and forever amen.In Him,Lahry

Diane,As I read your questionIsn't that the real purpose of studying the end times? I heard a sharp, rasping sound in my head, something like that of a sickle being sharpened. I can just make out a field of ripe grain and have the impression of one person in the foreground but there are other workers - just not in my line of vision.Are you sharp, or is it the word of God which is sharp?

Stever said:I still have a question that I posted earlier, that you have never answered, and would appreciate a reply:In regards to the pre-tribulation rapture being in error, then please explain to me why Christ has to come down and separate the sheep from the goats ? They would automatically be separated at the rapture- the dead in Christ rising first, and those (in Christ) that are alive next? Who would be left behind but the Non-believers? There would be no need to separate the Sheep from the Goats if this event occured at the SAME TIME AS THE RAPTURE.Lahry Responded:You are so close, it's almost forrest and trees kind of view. Why would Christ have to seperate the sheep and the goats? Because they have not yet been seperated. When will this occur? At the end of the rapture. Those who are His will rise up into eternal life and those who are not will be lost eternally. Do you think that at "pre-trib" there will be an assembly of "goats" and they will respond "Lord, when did we see you naked"? I don't. But it can fit at the end of the trib, or perhaps even at the end of the millineum. I just can't make it fit at the beginning. You may be right, but what if you're not. What then?See, when you realize that there is only one second coming of Jesus Christ, and one first resurrection, it's not difficult at all to understand the chronological order of events. Jesus comes to seperate us from the lost and reign for a thousand years. He shuts up satan, raises the dead, and gathers those that are His, that is, those who are alive, and those who gave up their lived during the trib for their profession of faith in Christ Jesus. These are the ones who will reign with Him for a thousand years, and the bible clearly says so. Stever's reply:Thank you for your reply. the problem that I have with your posts is that you never back up your positions with Scripture. How about going through the Scripure that I posted in my previous emails, and then showing me how my interpretation of scripture is incorrect. The importance of justifying Doctrine by Scripture is that it does away with pre-conceived ideas. What is a pre-conceived idea? Your post above in which you conclude:"See, when you realize that there is only one second coming of Jesus Christ, and one first resurrection, it's not difficult at all to understand the chronological order of events."You have come to a conclusion, a "realization" that you cannot back up with Scripture. I have quoted scripture that you have not even addressed. According to you it has all been dismissed. You have not even weighed it in the balance. Why? Because of your preconceived idea mentioned above.Without backing each view that you present here without Scriptural Support ends up being nothing more than He Said- She Said. Yes it is, No it isn't!Let's take this post to the place where it is supposed to be focused---GOD'S WORD.Take each post of mine and answer the Scripture I posted with not only your views, your thoughts, but also by God's word that supports your views, and proves my views in error.2 timothy 2:15 "15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."God bless,Stever

Stever's response:Again, you are not understanding what I said and the Bible Verses I quoted to back it up. There is only one "First Resurrection" to eternal life. Christ is part of the First Resurrection and started it---we after Him are part of it as well. Lahry's response:I see, so you are saying that people have been dying and then being resurrected 3 days later since Christ died. Ah-hum.Stever cont.To make it more understandable, the First Resurrection is an EVENT that started with Christ resurrecting from the dead (to eternal life), and will end with the last person resurrected from the dead and raised to eternal life. This "resurrection to eternal life" takes place at different times, but they are all part of the same EVENT:Lahry's response: You ask me for scripture. where oh where pray tell me please is the scipture to support this hypothesis? Stever cont.1 Cor 15:20:20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and BECOME THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT. Lahry- Old testament saints.21. For since by man came death, by MAN (JESUS CHRIST) CAME ALSO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.22. For as in Adam all die, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.Lahry - did all rise with Christ when He arose?23. But every man in his OWN ORDER: CHRIST THE FIRSTFRUITS; A F T E R W A R D (afterward) they that are Christ's at his coming.Lahry - They that are Christs at His coming. Does not say He's coming before the trib. It just says He is coming again, and those that have been resurrected will arise at that time.Stever:Paul tells them that they will be delivered from the wrath to come (the Great Tribulation):1 The 1: 10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.Lahry - The scripture does not say the wrath that is to come is the tribulation. Wrath is reserved for those who are condemned because they rejected the Savior. It does not say when that wrath will occur.Stever:Paul tells them that the rapture will come before the beginning of the "Day of the Lord":1 Thes 5:2 " 2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."Lahry - Paul does not mention any rapture. He says it's the "day of the Lord".Stever:Paul re-assures them again that God has not appointed them (believers) to the wrath to come (the Great Tribulation): 1 Thes 5:9-11 "9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,10. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.11. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."Lahry- The above scripture does not say rapture, nor does it give a time table.Stever:Paul admonishes them, and tells them that they should not be ignorant (because they have been ignorant-thus the purpose of this entire letter to them) of this event, that he (Paul) has already taught tehm before:13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1 Thes 4:16-17Lahry - where does it say Pre-trib?The Firstfruits is the resurrection from the dead of believers in Jesus Christ. Those that believed God and the Messiah to come that lived and died before the Cross, as well as those that believed God and the Messiah that came, and lived and died ( and some still living) after the Cross will all be RESURRECTED IN THEIR OWN ORDER.Lahry - Scripture reference for the above please.18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.I am comforted. Jesus is coming again. Paul actually believed that Jesus would come again before his generation was gone. In 70 ad there was terrible tribulation and wrath. Jerusalem was destroyed. Must have seemed like the trib to them. But it was not because of the old testament prophecy that was not yet fulfilled and Christ did not return. Neither were there nor has there been since anyone resurrected. That is because of the following:Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and shout for joy [exulting and triumphant]! Let us celebrate and ascribe to Him glory and honor, for the marriage of the Lamb [at last] has come, and His bride has prepared herself. [Ps. 118:24.] Rev 19:8 She has been permitted to dress in fine (radiant) linen, dazzling and white--for the fine linen is (signifies, represents) the righteousness (the upright, just, and godly living, deeds, and conduct, and right standing with God) of the saints (God's holy people). Rev 19:9 Then [the angel] said to me, Write this down: Blessed (happy, to be envied) are those who are summoned (invited, called) to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said to me [further], These are the true words (the genuine and exact declarations) of God. Rev 19:10 Then I fell prostrate at his feet to worship (to pay divine honors) to him, but he [restrained me] and said, Refrain! [You must not do that!] I am [only] another servant with you and your brethren who have [accepted and hold] the testimony borne by Jesus. Worship God! For the substance (essence) of the truth revealed by Jesus is the spirit of all prophecy [the vital breath, the inspiration of all inspired preaching and interpretation of the divine will and purpose, including both mine and yours]. Rev 19:11 After that I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse [appeared]! The One Who was riding it is called Faithful (Trustworthy, Loyal, Incorruptible, Steady) and True, and He passes judgment and wages war in righteousness (holiness, justice, and uprightness). [Ezek. 1:1.] Rev 19:12 His eyes [blaze] like a flame of fire, and on His head are many kingly crowns (diadems); and He has a title (name) inscribed which He alone knows or can understand. [Dan. 10:6.] Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dyed by dipping in blood, and the title by which He is called is The Word of God. Rev 19:14 And the troops of heaven, clothed in fine linen, dazzling and clean, followed Him on white horses. Rev 19:15 From His mouth goes forth a sharp sword with which He can smite (afflict, strike) the nations; and He will shepherd and control them with a staff (scepter, rod) of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath and indignation of God the All-Ruler (the Almighty, the Omnipotent). [Ps. 2:9.] Rev 19:16 And on His garment (robe) and on His thigh He has a name (title) inscribed, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. [Deut. 10:17; Dan. 2:47.] Rev 19:17 Then I saw a single angel stationed in the sun's light, and with a mighty voice he shouted to all the birds that fly across the sky, Come, gather yourselves together for the great supper of God, [Ezek. 39:4, 17-20.] Lahry- Please note that the marriage supper of the Lord has not yet occured, but is about too. We are at the end of the tribulation here folks. Rev 19:18 That you may feast on the flesh of rulers, the flesh of generals and captains, the flesh of powerful and mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all humanity, both free and slave, both small and great! Rev 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the rulers and leaders of the earth with their troops mustered to go into battle and make war against Him Who is mounted on the horse and against His troops. Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized and overpowered, and with him the false prophet who in his presence had worked wonders and performed miracles by which he led astray those who had accepted or permitted to be placed upon them the stamp (mark) of the beast and those who paid homage and gave divine honors to his statue. Both of them were hurled alive into the fiery lake that burns and blazes with brimstone. Lahry- This is the end of the battle of Armagedon. Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword that issues from the mouth of Him Who is mounted on the horse, and all the birds fed ravenously and glutted themselves with their flesh. Lahry- But wait, there's more. The beast and the false prophet are slain, destoyed.Rev 20:1 THEN I saw an angel descending from heaven; he was holding the key of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and a great chain was in his hand. Rev 20:2 And he gripped and overpowered the dragon, that old serpent [of primeval times], who is the devil and Satan, and [securely] bound him for a thousand years. Lahry- Satan is bound for a thousand years, and the millineum is about to begin. End of Trib here. Rev 20:3 Then he hurled him into the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and closed it and sealed it above him, so that he should no longer lead astray and deceive and seduce the nations until the thousand years were at an end. After that he must be liberated for a short time. Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom authority to act as judges and to pass sentence was entrusted. Also I saw the souls of those who had been slain with axes [beheaded] for their witnessing to Jesus and [for preaching and testifying] for the Word of God, and who had refused to pay homage to the beast or his statue and had not accepted his mark or permitted it to be stamped on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived again and ruled with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years. [Dan. 7:9, 22, 27.] Lahry - The ones slain in these verses are clearly slain during the tribulation. They would not take the mark of the beast. Rev 20:5 The remainder of the dead were not restored to life again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Lahry - Who was not restored to life? The remainder of the dead. Those that were restored, were those slain during the trib, you know, saints, church folk, set apart ones that some say are not here because the church is raptured. Rev 20:6 Blessed (happy, to be envied) and holy (spiritually whole, of unimpaired innocence and proved virtue) is the person who takes part (shares) in the first resurrection! Over them the second death exerts no power or authority, but they shall be ministers of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and they shall rule along with Him a thousand years. Lahry- and then the second resurrection shall occur, along with the great white throne judgement. Shalom,Lahry

Paul tells them that they will be delivered from the wrath to come (the Great Tribulation):Stever,It is clear you believe the 'wrath to come' is the 'Great Tribulation', but you do have to admit that this is an interpretation which is created by the claim that 'wrath to come' is interchangable with 'tribulation'. Yet, when scripture uses two different words, in other contexts, it means two different things. A good example of this is the verse in Ephesians which says 'goodness and righteousness and truth' (5:9) - three completely different nouns which are further defined and expanded by other verses in other books.TRIBULATIONBy the way, by accepting that 'wrath' is not equal to 'tribulation', you remove none of the terror of tribulation from the text. Only, it makes more sense of the whole of John 16, which ends 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. The beginning of the chapter is about suffering for the faith - even dying, physically - not because of wrath. This is backed up by these verses.1 John 54 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? It doesn't say anything about escaping tribulation. - And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Rev 12:11)WRATHRegarding wrath, here are some more verses which do not imply 'tribulation'. Ephesians 21 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God,Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Coloss 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: The above provide a better context for understanding that wrath is about what awaits those who do not believe. That is, those who have not become obedient to faith.This thought ties in with the promise that those who prefer darkness, or, who do not believe, are condemned already - therefore, will become subject to the judgement (wrath) of God.1 Thess 59 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Christians escape 'wrath' through faith in Christ. At no time in Church history, can they be sure of escaping tribulation. Paul actually believed that Jesus would come again before his generation was gone. Does he exactly say this anywhere?Neither were there nor has there been since anyone resurrected. Didn't Jesus ask Martha whether she believed in the resurrection? He said 'Your brother shall rise again'. Here is his declaration. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Doesn't v 26 puts the cat amongst the pigeons here.Another problem is what the crowd were discussing about the very fact of Lazarus's death.37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?Isn't this last bit of reasoning what our flesh hopes for itself before salvation, and why we are to take up our cross daily, after salvation?

Thanks for the post. Good comments indeed.Yes there have been those who have been raised from the dead. But they are not raised into their immortal bodies, they are raised back into life as we know it now. People were raised from the dead when Jesus died on the cross. But not into immortal bodies, but back into the corrupted ones. To all the pre-trib rapture folks, I don't have a problem if you are right. Praise God. It would be wonderful to be snatched out of this world and into the loving arms of my Master. I hope you are right. There are great arguments to be made using scripture both for and against your position and mine. If we are living our lives today like Christ told us too, loving God with all our heart, no idols, and loving our neighbor as ourselve, no cheating, then it really does not matter either way. If we are snatched, praise God. If we are in the midst of tribulation, praise God. Did not the Psalmist say that God has prepared us a table in the sight of our enemies? Do we not walk through the valley of the shadow of death, and yet not fear. Are you ready to do that? Am I? I hope that you are. Know this, if Israel signs a peace treaty with the Arabs, the 7 year clock will begin to tick, rapture or not. God bless you all as you go on with Jesus. May His rhema Word abound in your hearts and lead you and guide you into all truth.In Him,Lahry