End times stuff and Jerusalem the capital city.

Frank you seem to be saying the tribulation will be suffered only by the remnant and not the world in general, but I wanted to make sure this is what you are saying. I do not believe I have heard that interpretation before. I have heard the version set forth by Art Katz that Jews would be the target of the great persecution.

I’m definitely not pre-trib- your explanation helps because as you explain it worldwide trouble is concurrent with religious persecution.

One thing can be counted on. The issue of who is to control Jerusalem and the accompanying "what's to be done with the Jews in Palestine" problem is not going to go away and will eventually threaten world peace. The nations, or the humanistic leadership of nations, will likely take an even more dramatic shift against Israel as Israel maintains a unmovable attitude over the issue of Jerusalem. This controversy of Zion will become the epi-center of world geopolitical problems and the Jews will once again become the main culprits in the eyes of the nations. This controversy will be in the heart and middle of events swirling around the end of the age. It's said Christ may walk through the eastern gate upon His second advent to Jerusalem. Therefore the Muslims have sealed up the eastern gate and have a graveyard on the outside built up to the gate in hopes that the Christian and Jewish Messiah would not walk through a graveyard. Likewise, the principalities and powers know that when Christ has returned and is secure in Jerusalem that their sway and hold over the minds of men in this present evil age is over and done with. Hence the latter day controversy of who should own and have control of Jerusalem.

Hi Frank,

I have a very similar understanding as you on these events.
what I thought was interesting was that you seem to see the seals unfolding concurrently with the trumpets and vials. I also see it that way, i.e. they describe the same period of Tribulation in different detail, but I've not heard anyone else state this.

Does it seem that the seals, and the bowls etc are 4 viewpoints of the same events like the Gospels are four views. So 1111 2222 3333 etc? The first advent and the second advent.

I think a very literal temple is to be built.
Nothing is too hard for God. It seems like a tiny earthquake or a muslim missle, instead of intercepted by Israel, can be redirected right into the mosque by the hand of God.

It is the LAND that is important.

Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

The reason I do not believe it is a peace treaty because it is not clear from this verse , to me from this passage it says sacrifice and oblation shall cease and that cannot happen in a non literal temple

I also struggle with it being a peace treaty as there has been so many peace treaties with Israel which one is it and it is not clear from the scriptures that it is a peace treaty

2 Thessalonians 2

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In the passage in 2 Thessalonians 2
it says that the antichrist sits in a literal temple to me this is not to far fetched as the temple institute have all the requirements to build the third temple, the menorah and other temple vessels , even the plans

Maimonides has requirements for a Jewish Messiah and building the temple is one of them and no jew who is orthodox will accept an antichrist who does not build the third temple

god bless you apollos as you are a lovely brother
god bless Dom

Interesting how others are saying what I have concluded, too...many of these judgments as described in Revelation are describing the same event but from a different perspective. (We know the Gospels did the same with the life of Jesus.) I generally do not share this sense much because I was not sure how to explain it although I did start with drawing a chart but got sidetracked and never finished it. And if you do share this someone will be sure to come and knock it down, but even then the conviction still remains.

In observing the conflicts that have engulfed society, reading Revelation gives me a sense of peace because we are told that all calamities are happening under the supervision of God. And....history teaches us the world is EVIL and we have to learn to accept that it always will be until Jesus return.

Sandra

Many assume the abomination of desolation is spoken of only in Daniel 9:24-27. It's also recorded in Daniel 8:13, 11:31 and 12:11. Considered together it seems there is scant room to believe a literal temple is not included in the overall context. Nor is a symbolic non literal AC/man of sin being spoken of.

Jesus said when you SEE the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet let those in Judea flee for this event will begin tribulation such as never occurred. Jesus could not have been more clear and personally directed believers to the prophet Daniel. It's detrimental to ignore His instructions. The AOD will be the most specific clue of clues of clues that the final crisis of mankind will have begun culminating in Jesus' physical second advent. A church that knows what to look for will recognize the AOD for what it is (the most clear and specific sign Jesus gave) and will not be left in the dark wondering what to look for.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation

Truly I tell you, **this** generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Mark 13:30 (my emphasis).

There is no indication in the Olivet Discourse that when Jesus says "you” he means anything other than his direct audience who asked him the initial question which initiated the discourse.

"Who so readeth let him understand," means the reader can understand that when the abomination of desolation is SEEN which the prophet Daniel spoke of then it can be understood that the end of the age and Christ's second coming is near and will be preceded by a unprecedented time of trouble and distress such as has never occurred nor ever will again. Let the reader understand. With no literal temple then I suppose there is no literal AC/man of sin. Hence, the interpretive mode of over spiritualization of prophecy once again actually ends up blurring the picture.

TMK,

The problem with this type of view I think is that the final time of trouble which Daniel spoke of (Daniel 12:1) and Jesus spoke of (Matt 24:21) is in close proximity of time to the resurrection. Jesus in Matthew 24:21 was making reference to Daniel 12:1 - a time of distress and tribulation such as has never occurred. Then Daniel 12:2, the very next verse, speaks of the resurrection - many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awaken. The tribulation that ends the age is in close time proximity to the resurrection that signals the end of the age.

I agree appolus. It's a little late and I was thinking I may found a little brusque. So I hear you.

I just have a hard time understanding how a literal AC can walk into each believer if believers are the temple bring referred to. How can a literal AC walk into the new birth and new man in Christ within each of us? That has always been my question on this issue.

Thanks.

End times End Times
In 2017
Antichrist Antichrist
Will soon be on the scene

Tribulation Tribulation
For seven years
Like the Great Alexander
Is all one hears

Rapture Rapture
Take me away
Don't be left behind
Is what they say

One thousand years
Just like one day
We will reign with Him
Is what they say

Pre Mid Post
Or something like that
One and all
Must be blind as a bat

Israel Israel
Americans say
Be her friend
And you'll be okay

Born a jew die a jew
In His favor
It really doesn't matter
If Jesus was their Savior

Relativity is relative
It's just a theory
All this end times talk
Just makes us weary

What's happened to the Gospel
Just preaching Christ
This end times stuff
Is the cause of the heist

Let's get back to the fundamentals
And the old old story
Not a baby in a manger
But the Lord of Glory

If angels sing about it
So can I
Now fall on your knees
And worship Him on High

He brought to an end
Sacrifice and oblation
Destroyed that temple
And made us a Holy Nation

Let's proclaim the praises
Of Him Who lives
Who called us out of darkness
And always gives

A light to all the nations
We're called to be
Going into all the world
That they would Jesus see

To everything there is a season
And certainly an end
So after we're all done reading this
May all our knees bend - RF

One of the specifications of the Jewish Messiah is to build the third temple ,the Jewish Messiah will be the antichrist

http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/maimonides-laws-pertaining-messiah/

the Bible is a Jewish book

this is why I believe it to believe it to be a literal temple with the temple institute already having the plans and things ready

god bless

Dominic

All this end time stuff concerns Christ finishing the work He began at His first advent. Why does the end of this age and the events to occur profusely fill the pages of the Bible if they are irrelevant? Eschatology has become the only area of Biblical truth that is treated as unimportant to know. The end of the age is also going to reap a monumental and exceedingly great abundance of souls as it is preached that God was in Christ and His atonement reconciling sinners unto Himself. The preaching of the cross will take a center place and prominence in the true church at the end of the age.

I am upset with teaching such as the world will be christianised and then jesus will return or that everyone when they become a christian they will be healthy and wealthy as it produces atheists

"The Holy Place" was the common term used to describe the site of the temple and the holy place contned therein. Jesus was only repeating the common usage during His days. When he said the holy place it was clearly understood He was referring to the temple.

Where is there scripture to support the view that three major religions will come together band achieve world peace? It seems possible there might be a broad coalition of sorts along the lines of z 10 nation confederacy.

And following from that and respectfully making a observation, if the desolation is three world religions coming together then it seems the desolation would be performed not by a personal AC/man of sin (II These 2:1-10) but by a confederation of religions. Paul seems pretty clear in identifying the man of sin as a "he" - a person. "HE will exalt HIMSELF" (II Thess 2:1-4).

How then can the term holy place not support the temple view when the holy place was within the temple? The holy of holies.

My view also is that the great whore of Rev 17 is not referring to a apostate church but to a apostate Jerusalem. The great whore of Rev 17 is riding the trans-historical great red dragon/beast. It is Jerusalem. This is because at the end of Rev 17 and the whole of ch 18...take a marker and start in verse 1 and trace the pronouns..."her" and see she turns into "that great city" and then go to Rev 11 and see that "that great city" becomes Sodom and Egypt where our Lord was crucified (Rev 11:8). This is Jerusalem. Yet the great city has a determined destiny because of its ultimate election that has always set it apart. It will be destroyed during the final events of this present age but will be rebuilt during Christ's coming reign over the earth and will be known as the city of peace.

OK appolus. No problem. Note Rev 11:8 though. That city, the great city is the one in which our Lord was crucified.

Blessings.

ӢӢӢ the Bible is a Jewish book ӢӢӢ

For until this day remaineth a vail of blindness on the unsaved Jewish mind when they read the Scriptures.

So there perspective is not a good lens for Christians to read the Scriptures through.

clarity

ӢӢӢ the Bible is a Jewish book ӢӢӢ

This is the claim of the Hebrew Roots movement. Their assumption is one must get back to the Jewish roots of Jesus and the Old Testament to truly understand the scriptures. I believe that assumption to be false as it is a Holy Spirit who applies a scriptures to our hearts different us of Christ.

It is true, the only person who wrote a new testament book who was a gentile was Luke , this is not a hebrew roots argument just a fact from the scriptures

In my previous post, the jews expect there messiah to build the third temple

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/101744/jewish/Laws-Concerning-Kings-and-the-Messiah.htm

MISHNEH TORAH:
Hilchot Melachim
Laws Concerning Kings

Chapter XI

1. The Messianic King will arise in the future and restore the Davidic Kingdom to its former state and original sovereignty. He will build the Sanctuary1 and gather the dispersed of Israel.2 All the laws will be re-instituted in his days as they had been aforetimes;3 sacrifices will be offered, and the Sabbatical years and Jubilee years will be observed4 fully as ordained by the Torah.5

Anyone who does not believe in [Mashiach], or whoever does not look forward to his coming,6 denies not only [the teachings of] the other prophets but [also those] of the Torah and of Moses our Teacher. For the Torah attested to him, as it is said:

"G”‘d, your G”‘d, will return your captivity and have mercy on you. He will return and gather you [from all the nations whither G”‘d, your G”‘d, has scattered you]. If your banished shall be at the utmost end of the heavens [G”‘d, your G”‘d, will gather you from there]… and G”‘d, your G”‘d, will bring you [to the land that your fathers possessed, and you will possess it]…”7

These words, explicitly stated in the Torah, include all the [Messianic] statements made by all the prophets.

There is reference [to this principle] also in the section of Bilam.8 There he prophesied about the two meshichim (anointed ones): the first anointed one who is [King] David who saved Israel from the hand of their oppressors; and the final anointed one [i.e., Mashiach] who will arise from [the former’s] descendants and save Israel in the end.9 Thus it says there:

"I see him, but not now”10 this refers to David;

"I behold him, but not nigh” this refers to the Messianic King.

"A star steps out from Jacob” this refers to David;

"and a scepter will arise from Israel” this refers to the Messianic King.

"He will smite the great ones of Moab” this refers to David, as it says, "He smote Moab and measured them with a rope;”11

"and break all the children of Seth” this refers to the Messianic King, of whom it is said, "His rule will be from sea to sea.”12

"Edom will be a possession”13 this refers to David, as it is said, "Edom became servants to David;14

"[and Seir] shall be a possession” this refers to the Messianic King, as it is said, "Saviors shall ascend Mount Zion [to judge the mount of Esau]…”15

2. In context of the "cities of refuge,” too, it says, "When G”‘d, your G”‘d, will expand your borders… you shall add three additional cities…”16 This has never yet taken place, and the Holy One, blessed is He, does not command anything in vain.17

As for the [other] prophets’ utterances [about Mashiach], there is no need for prooftexts as all the [prophets’] books are full of this concept.

3. Do not think that the Messianic King will have to perform signs and wonders and bring about novel things in the world, or resurrect the dead, and other such things. It is not so.18 This is seen from the fact that Rabbi Akiva was a great sage, of the sages of the Mishnah, and he was an armor-bearer of King Bar Koziba19 and said of him that he is the Messianic King: [R. Akiva] and all the wise men of his generation considered him to be the Messianic King until [Bar Koziba] was killed because of sins, and when he was killed they realized that he was not;20 but the sages had not asked him for any sign or wonder.

The essence of all this is that this Torah [of ours], its statutes and its laws, are forever and all eternity, and nothing is to be added to them or diminished from them.21

(Whoever adds or diminishes anything, or interprets the Torah to change the plain sense of the commandments, is surely an impostor, wicked, and a heretic.)22

4. If a king arises from the House of David23 who meditates on the Torah and occupies himself with the commandments like his ancestor David, in accordance with the written and oral Torah,24 and he will prevail upon all of Israel to walk in [the ways of the Torah] and strengthen its breaches,25 and he will fight the battles of G”‘d26 it may be assumed that he is Mashiach.27

If he did [these things] successfully (and defeated all the nations around him28), built the Sanctuary on its site29 and gathered the dispersed of Israel he is definitely Mashiach!30 He will [then] correct the entire world to serve G”‘d in unity, as it is said, "For then I will turn to the peoples a pure tongue that all shall call upon the Name of G”‘d and serve Him with one consent.”31

(If he did not succeed to that extent or was killed, it is clear that he is not the [Mashiach] promised by the Torah … for all the prophets said that Mashiach is the redeemer of Israel and their savior, and he gathers their dispersed and reinforces their commandments…)32

Chapter XII

1. One is not to presume that anything of the ways of the world will be set aside in the Messianic era, or that there will be any innovation in the order of creation; rather, the world will continue according to its norms.33

As for that which is said in Isaiah, that "the wolf will dwell with the sheep and the leopard will lie down with the kid” 34 this is an allegory and metaphor. It means that Israel shall dwell securely alongside the wicked heathens who are likened to wolves and leopards, as it is said "a wolf from the plains ravages, a leopard lies in wait over their cities.”35 [In the Messianic era] all will return to the true religion and will neither steal nor destroy, but consume that which is permitted, in repose alongside Israel, as it is said, "the lion will eat straw like the ox.”36 All other such expressions are also allegories, and in the era of the Messianic King everyone will come to know what the allegory is about and what allusions are indicated.37

2. The sages said: "There is no difference between the present age and the Messianic era but [delivery from] subjection to foreign powers.”38

From the plain sense of the words of the prophets it is apparent that in the beginning of the Messianic era will occur the war of Gog and Magog;39 and that prior to the war of Gog and Magog a prophet will arise to correct Israel and to prepare their hearts, as it is said, "Behold, I am sending you the prophet Elijah [before the coming of the great and awesome day of G”‘d].”40 He will not come to declare the pure impure or the impure pure, nor to disqualify people presumed to be of legitimate lineage or to legitimize those presumed to be of disqualified lineage;41 but to establish peace in the world, as it is said, "He will turn the heart of the fathers to the children…”42

Some sages say that Elijah will come before the coming of Mashiach.43

All these and similar matters, however, man will not know how they will occur until they come to pass; for in the [statements of the] prophets these are undefined matters, and the sages, too, do not have a clear tradition on these subjects except for the [apparent] implications of the Scriptural verses. That is why they have differences of opinion in these matters. In any case, neither the sequence of these events nor their details are fundamental to the faith.

A person should not involve himself with the homiletical statements or protract on the Midrashim speaking of these or similar matters, nor is one to consider them fundamental; for they do not lead to either fear or love [of G”‘d].44

Likewise, one is not to calculate "ends” [dates of the Messianic redemption]. The sages said, "May the spirit expire of those who calculate the ‘ends.’ ”45 Rather, one is to await [the redemption] and believe the principle of this matter as we have explained.

3. In the era of the Messianic King, when his kingdom will be established and all of Israel will gather around him, all of them will have their pedigree determined by him,46 by means of the Holy Spirit that will rest upon him, as it is said, "He will sit as a refiner and purifier.”47 First he will purify the descendants of Levi,48 saying "This one is a legitimate Kohen (priest), and this one is a legitimate Levite,” while diverting those of improper lineage to the [rank of] Israelites.49 Thus it is said, "The governor [Nechemiah] said to them… until there will rise a Kohen with the Urim and Tumim;”50 from this you can infer that the determination of presumed pedigree and the public declaration of lineage is by means of the Holy Spirit.51

As for the Israelites, he will only determine their tribal lineage, that is, he will inform that "this one is of such-and-such a tribe and that one is of such-and-such a tribe.”52 He will not pronounce on those presumed to be of legitimate ancestry that "this one is a mamzer and that one is a ‘slave’;”53 for the law stipulates that once a family is intermixed [with the Jewish community at large] it remains intermixed.54

4. The sages and the prophets did not long for the Messianic era so that they may rule over the whole world or dominate the heathens, nor to be exalted by the nations, nor in order that they may eat, drink and be merry; but only to be free [for involvement] with the Torah and its wisdom, without anyone to oppress and disturb them, so that they may merit the life of the World-to-Come, as we explained in Hilchot Teshuvah.55

5. In that era there will be neither famine56 nor war,57 neither envy nor strife,58 because good will emanate in abundance and all delightful things will be accessible as dust.59 The one preoccupation of the entire world will be solely to know G”‘d. The Israelites, therefore, will be great sages and know the hidden matters,60 and they will attain knowledge of their Creator to the extent of human capacity, as it is said: "The earth shall be full with the knowledge of G”‘d as the waters cover the sea!”61

QUOTE:

" the Bible is a Jewish book"

I know very little about the Hebrew roots movement; never checked into it because I have no interest in it, like a lot of other religious groups. Unless they reside in our community I will not bother to educate myself concerning them.

However, I do agree that the Scriptures is a Jewish book. I used to find the Epistles boring, repetitious- talking about sacrifices, altars, law, etc (think the book of Hebrews). Then one day the Holy Spirit so clearly led me to study the OT law so I can think like a Jew. I did that: studied it, gaining an insight what life looked like living under the OT law thereby gaining an understanding what Jewish culture looked like during the Apostles era. Suddenly I understood what Paul was saying - it was like a window was opened and the light shone in. There is some reason why God had the OT and the law preserved for his people. Digging, learning, gaining insights to the awesomeness, greatness of God is beyond awesome.

Sandra