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The Poison of sour grapes

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sermonindex

Eze 18:2 "The parents eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge."

Politics is a poison to the soul. It is why i do not vote. Don't get me wrong, I have opinions, plenty of them and I am not afraid to express what I believe. Yet since I don't vote I don't have to choose between the lesser of two evils, I just call evil wherever I see it whether it has a left leaning or a right leaning. The partisan spirit to me, is one of the great evils of the day and helps to corrupt the minds and souls of children as they listen to the sour grapes of their parents, whether it was bitter complaints about President Clinton or bitter complaints and rejection of President Bush, President Obama and now President Trump.

With every passing generation for the last few decades we have seen hatred and bitterness and partisanship passed down like an ever heavier weight for our children to carry. The legacy that we pass to our children should be a legacy of faith and of joy and of peace in God. We should be equipping our children to find the living God and serving Him all the days of their lives, not caught up in a slough of despondency. This current hatred of President Trump will eat into the children, that are being raised with it, like a cancer and draw us ever further apart as a society. Once we teach our children to reject authority then hell follows in its path and society is drawn down into the abyss. The children's teeth are set on edge, God, help the children......bro Frank

S
sermonindex

Sobering post my dear brother, but I wholeheartedly agree with you. Thank you for sharing, living by example, and praying.

Love you!

S
sermonindex

Thank you Caleb, I was going to name it the high cost of sour grapes because there is a high cost to pay for even a root of bitterness..............bro Frank

I
InTheLight

The legacy that we pass to our children should be a legacy of faith and of joy and of peace in God. We should be equipping our children to find the living God and serving Him all the days of their lives, not caught up in a slough of despondency.

Equipping our children in a world that is on fire is no easy task and must be considered very carefully and prayerfully.

God's call upon our lives and the lives of our children is to love and to be one with all who are in Christ Jesus, and then to let God's truth speak into the whole sphere of life and society.

We must teach our children that it is their responsibility to touch the whole church and the whole society. This is to teach them how rich Christianity and God's truth are. Our faith touches the whole life. Jesus is Lord if He is Lord of the totality of our life, including all the social and political and cultural life.

Our children must learn from past mistakes. God will raise a testimony in them that will turn the churches and the society around, and at least slow down the slide to a totally humanistic society.

In Christ,

D
dspks

In response to appolus:

I would suggest NOT to use this verse to establish any opinion or doctrine.

You are entitled to your opinion BUT you are using this verse TOTALLY out of context.

The Lord will NOT allow my children to use my actions (ie. politics, anger, gluttony, etc) as an excuse or reason for THEIR actions/sins...

THAT is what the context of this verse is talking about.

M
MrBillPro

I don't know exactly how to interpret this scripture, but I do believe children are negatively affected by their parents sins. I also believe sin can have far-reaching consequences, especially when children learn their parents ideas and emulate their behavior.

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dspks

In response to appolus:

One may have an OPINION/CONVICTION BUT most are neither biblical or factual.

The danger of both Convictions/Opinions is making them into DOCTRINE.

An OPINION may be a CONVICTION…

BUT it is not DOCTRINE.

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dspks

If one reads the context of stated verse... it explains itself.

Yes, I do influence my children... and yes, I will be held accountable for MY actions... BUT, my children are NOT prisoners to MY actions.

God's grace is GREATER than all my sin!!

The devil will use any resource he can to infiltrate our souls...

BUT...take heart parents:

Your children will be wholly held responsible for their decisions. The Lord will NOT use you as an excuse for THEIR choices!!

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MrBillPro

dspks....One may have an OPINION/CONVICTION BUT most are neither biblical or factual.

The danger of both Convictions/Opinions is making them into DOCTRINE.

Your OPINION may be a CONVICTION…

BUT it is not DOCTRINE.

Slow down there Hoss! I never said anything about my opinion being biblical or factual, or making them into doctrine. If opinions are dangerous, you just voiced an opinion, saying my OPINION may be a CONVICTION, well that's your DANGEROUS opinion.

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havok20x

Here are the first few verses of Ezekiel 18 for greater context. I agree that the context of the verse used to support the idea is actually contradicting the idea that is being presented. Let us be careful about how we use the scriptures.

-------
The word of the Lord came to me: "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

"‘The parents eat sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

"As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child””both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.

Read the remainder of the chapter for a greater context.


-----------

The idea brought forth though is not necessarily wrong. I don't think anything is wrong with voting per se, but I don't think it is a Christian duty by any means.

Also, we ought to train our children up in the way of the Lord. We ought to shine as lights in the darkness. When all peoples are putting their hopes in who the next president will be, we ought to be putting our hope in Jesus. God is handing our nation over to our own depraved minds. But if our nation should repent and turn to Jesus, then the blessings of the Lord will come upon us individually--not this materialistic nonsense that is promoted today, but holiness, righteousness, peace, and joy in Jesus Christ. No terrorist attack or crumbling of any stock market can take that away from us.

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MrBillPro

havok20x....I agree that the context of the verse used to support the idea is actually contradicting the idea that is being presented. Let us be careful about how we use the scriptures.
And I totally agree with you here.
"dspks" was somehow of the impression I agreed with the original post, my post was just an opinion, and "SURE NOT ANY CONVICTION" that's all, never said I agreed with the OP definition of that scripture.

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dspks

Appolus said, "Politics is a poison to the soul."

Sounds like a factual conviction to me.

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MrBillPro

dspks....You said, "Politics is a poison to the soul."

Sounds like a factual conviction to me.

Can you please point out where I said that? My name is Bill not Frank.

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dspks

sorry Mr. Bill... My whole post is in response to appolus...

T
TMK

I think the idea that in large part kids are being brought up to be unthinking brats is true. However, they are brainwashed by their parents behavior in regard to politics more than their ideology which is more subtle and devious. This results in the inability to compromise or reasonably discourse on a topic. Way yonder too much labeling. They see the behavior of adults on social media (and the actual politicians on TV) and conclude that is the way political discussion should be.

S
sermonindex

This post has nothing to do with voting. Not sure why one would use caps other than to suggest that they are shouting. Not interested in shouting or arguing. If anyone does not like the post I have no problem with that. I understand well the context of the chapter and it is wonderful to know that God does not judge the child for the sins of their father, unless the child takes up the sins of his father which is what my post is about...............bro Frank

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MrBillPro

I think this thread has turned into Sour Grapes. :-)

G
Gloryandgrace


Unless I missed it, Ezekiel 18 is really not going to carry the thought Frank connected to it ( his commentary)

I believe Frank's comments more closely fit this text.
Exodus 34:7

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation...

This text more closely resembles the commentary made by Frank. His brushing over of political jabbing, angered rhetoric, polarization of families one against another portrays the results of ungodliness manifesting in constant animosity with one another. Each group deferring to worldly wisdom that James declares...
Jms 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

The fruit of peace that Frank spoke of is not the result of a party spirit making divisions in accordance with political judgments and not according to the word of God.

If I missed it ok ( not the first time) but I don't see Ezekiel's text portraying Franks commentary.

But the Exodus text gives room for it, because when the parents live according to their own worldly wisdom and elect officials in keeping with their worldly ideologies, their children by default are now subjected to the fruit of worldly wisdom, human autonomy and lifestyles founded upon the premises that they are to live in alienation from God and ignorant of his word.

We do reap what we sow and when we sow a humanistic ideology into our schools, politics, colleges, civil government in doing so we ( the voters) have elected the ungodly who according to their ungodliness will partner with other ungodly people and work their delegated power to glorify man and his wisdom. God's glory and wisdom is now set at variance with the populace and what ensues is a political power acting without reference to God's word and without the fear of God.

My parents wanted this, my friends wanted what they got the last 50 years and now gen Xers, millenials will vote in the ungodly who promise to give them access to unhindered-ungodliness without penalty of law.

If I were to quote

Ezk 9:4And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.


S
sermonindex

I think your right Bill :) People like to tear into things as you probably know, sigh. I did not take my context from Ezekiel 18, I took it from the ancient proverb it spoke of. That will mean little to some, who never post but only ever comment on posts and usually in the negative...........bro Frank

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Gloryandgrace

Sorry Frank if you interpreted my response as negative. I agreed with what you said, I just shifted the base text from Ezk to Exodus. I was essentially just trying to connect the dots in my own head, It wasn't my intent to be an offense.

S
sermonindex

No problems Marvin, I am simply amused at the people who have to announce that they never said they agreed with the original post. The post is based on a proverb which is quoted in Ezekiel 18, the post is not based on Ezekiel 18, its a simple as that. But in the spirit of partisanship that the original post alludes to, one must announce that they agree or disagree with the post. Deep sigh. My suggestions to people who feel the need to correct rather than to add to and edify, just simply sit quietly in prayer and see if the Lord will speak to you and if He does, come and share. But beware :)..........bro Frank

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dspks

I was totally mislead by your first post... thinking that the only verse that you quote and refer to through out your post was the verse you based your post on.

I guess.. I missed the original portion of scripture you based your post on... ????

S
sermonindex

Dspks, my post is based on a ancient Hebrew proverb quoted in Eze 18, my post has nothing to do with Eze 18 the chapter which is teaching something very different.......bro Frank

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dspks

So your post is based on the truth contained in this proverb:

"...The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge?” Ezekiel 18:2, KJV.

??

G
Gloryandgrace

Hi Frank:

I was not going to respond further but I felt it best to be direct on this subject.

The proverb. Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?

The proverb sets up the basis for the remaining text in Ezekiel 18. So it cannot be true that the proverb is divorced from the remaining chapter or that to use the proverb outside of Ezekiel's interpretation of what the Jews meant and why God said...Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

Without going into lengthy exegesis, the summary is simply The Fathers who sinned against God (ate sour grapes) are not the cause of Israel's hardships and judgments. The Children themselves are guilty of their own sin (children's teeth set on edge).

Jeremiah helps with a quick summation of exactly what I quoted and commented on. Jer 31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

The proverb is a distortion of the Exodus text I spoke of earlier which Israel had twisted into a falsehood. That falsehood being that Their fathers sinned and the children are bearing the brunt of God's judgment when in their own minds they are innocent victims of their fathers sinful failures.

God of course is refusing and correcting such error by telling them they are suffering because they are sinning as their Fathers did...and as Jeremiah said.
Jer 16:10 And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, Wherefore hath the LORD pronounced all this great evil against us? or what is our iniquity? or what is our sin that we have committed against the LORD our God?
Jer 16:11 Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law;
Jer 16:12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:

Jeremiah explicitly says "ye have done worse than your fathers".
The children are to be blamed for their own sins and God's punishment that comes to them because of their own sins.

I wrote all of this for clarification, not that you were contesting any of the above interpretation.
But mentioning it because the proverb is directly relatable to the context and its interpretation is declared by a lengthy explanation by the prophet.

What I am getting at is your initial OP you stated
"Once we teach our children to reject authority then hell follows in its path and society is drawn down into the abyss. The children's teeth are set on edge, God, help the children."

You used the phraseology of the text to illustrate a failing characteristic in our society, as I understand this, the phraseology of the text doesn't lend itself to your characterization.

You actually came back later and said...
"it is wonderful to know that God does not judge the child for the sins of their father unless the child takes up the sins of his father which is what my post is about....."

I think maybe this led to some confusion.

Your last statement is what prompted my response to you elaborating on how our society shows a progression of God rejection for which our own children's teeth are set on edge by reason of their own sinful choices.

Lastly, I offer this as an academic not an argument against the sentiments you expressed.

S
sermonindex

The proverb in Ezek 18 was used to show that God was saying that He would not judge the children for the sins of the father. Now we know that is a fact, but it did not change nor has it changed the fact that we can indeed raise a child with hatred and humiliation and violence, for instance, and that child will, in the normal course of events, follow how he was raised. This is the sour grapes of bad parenting. One can also raise up a child in the way that they should go, in the fear and the admonish of the Lord and that child will be in a better place, have a better start on life. That's all brother, nothing to technical..........bro Frank

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