alone christian....

I wasn't aware that church attendance was necessary for salvation.

Is it possible this person is misquoting Hebrews 10:24,25 "And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is..."

Can I ask who posted it?

I think, in general now, that a true Christian would usually desire to go to church to fellowship and worship with other believers.

The quote is intended to prick the conscious of those who claim to be Christian but exhibit no fruit in their lives.

There ya go, and I always thought that we Christian s were the church and not some physical building.!

True but even the truest and most devout heroes of the faith went to church(or pastored a church).

In our society true Christians generally gather together, whether in a large building or someone’s home.

Again I am speaking in generalities and I am not saying you can’t be a Christian if you don’t attend church or gather with other believers.

The trouble with quoting a propositional claim like this taken from Facebook is that it lacks context. It seems like an angry self-righteous poster who has a bone to pick.

The internet can be a cesspool of "clickbait" titles and topics. It's like people are constantly throwing out "sticks", to see who will fetch them, tug against them, or at least click "like". We do well to ignore most of these "sticks" tossed our way - especially the ones that defile our peace, rob our joy, and deplete our mental energy.

The quote is intended to prick the conscious of those who claim to be Christian but exhibit no fruit in their lives.

//Prick the conscious - or condemn. //

It’s a fine line and I agree I would not trust a Facebook post in that regard.

You have heard it's been said on Facebook, ________________...

but...

Simon says, ________________...

but...

I must go now, I've got to scratch my ears.

--------------------------------

You have heard it's been said, Facebook is ______________...

but I say, if you even look at Facebook to learn from her, you may be famous one day and go viral, and even make the headlines.

Multiple choice: answer a,b,c,d

SEE YOU IN __

a) church
b) heaven
c) hell
d) purgatory

And this little piggy went __

a) home
b) to grandmother's house
c) to market
d) to church

It's beginning to feel alot like __

a) christmas
b) superbowl sunday
c) easter
d) 2018

I voted for __

a) fun
b) none
c) him
d) her

How's your __

a) love life
b) worship
c) hygiene
d) daily devotions

A real man is __

a) one who let's women define what a real man is
b) one who loves his wife if he is loving her the way she says he is supposed to love her
c) one who takes his family to the church his wife wants to go to
d) all of the above

The proof is in the __

a) pudding
b) the Facebook post
c) science laboratory
d) flat earth

How much is __

a) that baby in the window
b) 2+2
c) that Mercedes
d) your bail

Last question,

Everything is __

a) beautiful
b) relative
c) about you
d) your imagination

So...how'd you do?

Pass or Fail?

If you got them all wrong, you passed.

If you got them all right, you failed.

Wether you pass or fail this test may mean that you are going to hell.

One more question,

The best way to waste your time is __

a) on Facebook
b) watching the superbowl
c) reading posts
d) sleeping

Til next time...

There is nothing in the Bible that say's were are to know it all, or that we are expected to know it all. Praise Jesus!

Hey Mr. Bill, I see that you posted at 9:43am on Sunday morning (the christian sabbath).

According to Facebook chapter 1 verse 101 you may be going to hell. Because, hasn't the WORSHIP SERVICE started already. And by logical deduction you aren't attending church.

BTW... how'd you do on the test?

This is too funny.... no self-righteous cynicism here, right?!
... Maybe a safety valve for our overloaded minds - you know, all that toxic societal clutter.

Surely he must be referring to the apostolic Roman Catholic Church right? Not the rebellious off branches of Luther?

Im speaking facetiously here to point out that such a claim is ridiculous and will bring up a million questions that prove the shallowness of such an idea.

I failed that test miserably! But I did listen to Charles Stanley this morning, he had a great sermon.

Hey Mr Bill,

Glad to hear that you listened to a sermon this morning!

But isn't Charlie a Baptist?

I think you might have to be a Baptist to go to Heaven.

If you don't go to a Baptist church, you may be going to hell.

You, Mr. Bill are halfway there. You may not have gone to the Baptist church, but at least you listened to a Baptist sermon.

BTW - I noticed that you addressed me as Ray. For the future, remember, it's Mr Ray to you - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

You guys are crazy! But in a good way, btw I didn’t take the test because I thought it was a trick to get my personal information, like spam or something. Blessings dmiller

I didn’t take the test because I thought it was a trick to get my personal information, like spam or something.

.... said by either someone wisely caution or a nutty conspiracy theorist.

How doe we tell the difference?

Those poor believers in Somalia, North Korea, China, Afghanistan, Eritrea--places in the world where believers do not live close enough one to another to even have a church--they must not have made the spiritual cut, I guess.

savannah...BTW - I noticed that you addressed me as Ray. For the future, remember, it's Mr Ray to you.

//Those poor believers in Somalia, North Korea, China, Afghanistan, Eritrea--places in the world where believers do not live close enough one to another to even have a church--they must not have made the spiritual cut, I guess.//

To be entirely fair, it would seem the original quote is not addressing this scenario.

He is pointing to a problem (rather crassly I admit) of people who claim to be Christians but have no desire to attend church. I am sure the persecuted saints in the countries you note would love to attend church with other believers if they were able.

If we are 100% honest we would see that, at minimum, a person who claims to be a Christian but refuses to go to church of some sort if he is able is exhibiting "red flag” behavior.

Again I am speaking in generalities but I could rattle off multiple names of people I know who would claim to be a Christian but have no interest in attending church, reading a Bible, praying etc.

The purpose of the quote is to shock people to do a quick assessment, obviously. But it is no stronger than things Ravenhill or Tozer have said.

I think the problem is a combination of medium by which they choose to express themselves, the utter lack of context, and the lack of clarity in distinguishing what it means to go to hell and what it means to go to heaven.

I get that people claiming to be believers and refusing to attend fellowships are acting in disobedience. But I have obstinately refused to do what I knew what was right for a season, but that didn't mean I was going to hell.

The thing that draws me back is never the threat of condemnation, but the love of Christ for me. His mercy, His love, His correction, and the loving influence of other believers brought me back.

However, there are times to be hard. That being said, we just need to practice discernment. Maybe the brother who posted on facebook did it under the influence of the Holy Spirit, but it strikes me as a side-line attack directed toward someone on social media, without engaging them directly.

Agreed.

TMK...If we are 100% honest we would see that, at minimum, a person who claims to be a Christian but refuses to go to church of some sort if he is able is exhibiting "red flag” behavior.

Hey Bill- I indicated I was speaking in generalities. And I know you have not forsaken the word, prayer etc. God certainly knows your heart and I am not judging.

I still think, in general, that the lack of any desire to go to church is perhaps indicative of a professor’s true heart condition. But there are always exceptions.

Thanks Todd, there is a church on every street corner in Houston, I just got burned out on trying to find one that I could live with, so I had to take a break for a while after being so discouraged.

Lol

I have a good friend, a brother in the Lord who doesn’t attend any church gatherings but he stays in the Word of God, and I strive to have fellowship with him as often as I can. I don’t doubt His salvation at all, and his walk is spot on excepting that one thing. Occasionally we(my wife and I) invite him to church but he usually just answers back with silence. He is very active in his public witness and He constantly is in prayer. I guess one of these days he may attend with us?

I don't like to continue to bring my past 5 years of tragedies up, so I won't detail them, most here already know. My message is, don't be to hard on folks, you never know what they've been through. I'm closer to the Lord now, than I've ever been in my life, the past 5 years have just taken all the wind from my sails. I'm slowly picking up the pieces, but I'm also basically living the life of a hermit right now at this point in my life. My friends have invited me to so many different occasions in life, but I'm sorta like your friend I just go silent, but thank God they understand and continue to ask very graciously now.

I too have stopped attending church for a season due to discouragement so I certainly understand.

I mentioned my friend because I understand. I know burn out and what it is like to be blindsided by life, just my way of letting you know that I consider you a brother in The Lord church attendance or no church attendance.. God Bless bro dmiller

MrBillPro,

I don't know the circumstances you are in and I don't know how extensive your search has been for a body of believers. But I would like to encourage you to find a body of believers that you need to be plugged in to. I live just north of Houston--if you're willing to drive 2.5 hours north every Sunday, you can come to mine, and I don't say that tritely.

I would also like to encourage you to not look for a church that doesn't need you--what I am saying is that you are a functioning member of the body, with specific gifts, with specific callings. You don't need to look for a church that is perfect, you need to look for one where you can serve other believers.

We are commanded NOT to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, so there is definitely a place for you. Even if you had to move somewhere else to get it.

Again, I don't know your circumstances, but I will tell you this, if I was in a place and there was 0 fellowship, 0 gathering of the believers, then I'd work to plant a church or move somewhere that had it.

I know it's probably tough, especially in Houston, but the Lord can and will help you to do what He has commanded.

I appreciate your thoughts. I can’t move, I’ve owned a business here since 1984 and cannot afford to totally retire, I have to stay in Houston. I have a mom in a nursing home down the road from me, and numerous kids, grandkids and great grandkids that wouldn’t want me to move either, plus, I consider my business part of my ministry.

At 66 driving a couple hours to church, and 2 hrs back, especially with the health issues I’ve had, would probably not be a good idea. I know the word says, not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, but does it mean we have to assemble between the walls of a church building, or could it be 3 people at someone’s home? I’m not looking for the perfect church, because as soon as I joined, it would now be imperfect. What I would like to be involved with, is a place of worship, were a lot of "all” the word is taught, Old and New Testament, and maybe one with a fellowship hall on the premises, to where after church folks could meet for coffee, and farther discuss what was taught in church that day, and have some personal prayer time for each other.

Yes, maybe I’m being to picky, but am I really? I once belonged a church that really taught the meat of the word, and the pastor went on to be with the lord, I guess I got spoiled. I do understand churches have to find a happy medium to keep all the congregation coming back, and I can appreciate that. I try my best not to let my past tragedies keep me in bondage, but some things in life just take time for us to heal from, of course we all would like it always to be a short time. I do feel I’m recovering on Gods timing, and I do trust that one day I will be totally healed, and be able to break away from my current "hermit type” lifestyle, to one that does have me assembling together with the body of Christ somewhere.

So when I was in Africa on my last mission trip, I dislocated my shoulder. I came back to the states and it was totally incapacitated. I couldn't do much with it, and because it was injured, I didn't do much with it. Finally, after still being incapacitated for weeks, I went to the doctor. I told him that the recovery was really slow and it just didn't seem to be getting better.

Turns out, my recovery would have been much faster if I had actually made attempts to use it--not full fledged like the other arm, but stretch it a little more than it wanted to go, lift just a little more than I felt it could. After putting it to a little more use, it made a full recovery.

This is what I am suggesting to you. Pain and hurt CAN be healed alone, but in the midst of a group of loving believers, it will go much faster. Did it hurt to use my shoulder--yes. Did it recover? Definitely.

Here is a verse that the Lord gave me when I started isolating myself away from people:

Proverbs 18:1--"A man who isolates himself seeks his own desire; He rages against all wise judgment."

The Lord had to deal with me right when I got to the "rages against all wise judgment" stage of isolation--because I was just pushing off everyone's advice, encouragement, etc. Not saying you're there yet, but it is a good verse for me to keep in my mind every time I want to go into hermit mode.

I MUCH prefer to be by myself. It has taken me a long time to learn to deal with people, but now I don't deal with them--I love them, and that only comes through the power of Jesus. So when that temptation arises, I throw up my shield of faith and say "That's not what the Bible says" and counter with that verse. Helps a lot, to be honest.

havok20x....Proverbs 18:1--"A man who isolates himself seeks his own desire; He rages against all wise judgment."

The priority of Jesus solitude and silence is everywhere in the Gospels, It’s how he began his ministry, It’s how he made important decisions. It’s how he dealt with troubling emotions like grief, "which this is what I'm dealing with" It’s how he dealt with the constant demands of his ministry and cared for his soul. It’s how he taught his disciples, It’s how he prepared for important ministry events, It’s how he prepared for his death on the cross.

How could we miss the significance of Jesus solitude and silence with the Father? How could we think that we can live well or love well without following Jesus example? I personally believe, the silence and solitude of Jesus is one of those foundations of fellowship we can not do without.

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Since the scriptures clearly teach each individual born again person is a member of the 'body' or the 'Church' of Jesus Christ, when I assemble together the Church is where ever 2 or 3 are gathered together in his name.

Our western mindset depicts 'church' in the institutional model, so those who believe are taught to assemble because to be in-the-Church means to assemble at a specific location, with a specific pastor, elders, organization and non-profit status with the government.
But the Church in ACTS knew nothing of this 'type' of Church assembly. It knew the Synagogue, the home group and the public meetings on the grass. Later it knew them in the catacombs, the caves, the desert, the outside-of-town farm home.
The assembling together was understood as the members of the true-church meeting in fellowship, prayer, study, communion...and that's how you recognized the 'true church' as the baptized communion taking convert.

So, according to scripture, when we assemble for home groups, I am in obedience, when we assemble in the park, desert, caves, public meeting houses or even the institutionally owned building I am in obedience. There I can fulfill the mandate of the writer to the Hebrews and provoke others to love and good works; and I too am provoked by others as well.

One can avoid the institutional mode, but he cannot avoid the those smaller, 'unofficial' looking meetings and still be in obedience to the scripture.

Isolation keeps you from being provoked to love and good works. Your isolation keeps you from helping others to love and do good works. In effect your first act of love and good works is to promote it in other members.

It must be understood clearly, when any member assembles together, whether it be institutional or cave-group the mandate is being fulfilled.
But, remember too, the mandate of assembly is not simply to assemble as is the habit and weakness of our western culture. The point of assembly is to provoke to love and good works. This means an active participation in the group in some form where ever you meet.

To me, worrying about whether or not someone is going to an institutional style Church is missing the point of the text, our assembly is for our participation in others lives and that can be done anytime in most any location...as with Paul and Silas...even in prison.

I think when we mention solitude or isolation or alone time, others have to be careful that they don’t assume, we’re here for the duration. In my opinion, solitude is a valuable practice. "Alone time” with God can allow God to examine us. It can also be a time of knowing God more deeply, a time of strengthening, a time of refreshment, a time of sharing our deepest concerns with God, and a time of simply being with the One who formed us and loves us beyond our understanding. Personally speaking, I still work, I consider my business part of my ministry, so I’m not living in a cave, but sometimes in this world we live in today, a cave sure seems tempting.

Alone time with God is as necessary as holy fellowship.

Intimate time with God that cannot be replaced by any other spiritual discipline is where prayer, faith and belief all meet. It is in God's presence alone that these three migrate from doctrine and mental acquisition into Holy Spirit revelation.

It is because of a Holy Spirit revelation the man or woman of God transcends the mere doctrine-parrot. Instead of talking about prayer, they understand what prayer-presence is about. When they speak of biblical truth they understand truth-freeing them rather than truth and doctrine by category places them in greater esteem in the eyes of others.

It has been my experience again and again, my alone time is where I meet God, and when I assemble together I am equipped to obey the mandate of Hebrews 10.

My private times with God are a hundred fold more filled with the presence, power and revelation of God than when I assemble together. This is not to minimize what God does by my assembling together; I have learned that alone time with God equips me for together time with men.

Right on Mr. Marvin, I totally agree 100%.

our assembly is for our participation in others lives and that can be done anytime in most any location.

I have experienced remarkable connections through Christians of the past - through their biographies, devotions, etc. That "cloud of witnesses" is amazingly effective in challenging us and teaching us.

I wonder why we are prone to putting value judgments on the religious habits of another. Even if they are absolute scoundrels shaking their fist at God - is that necessarily bad? Consider the prodigal son... compared to the older brother. Who ended up with the more powerful testimony?

We are right on the edge of taking this verse out of it's context and just applying it to whatever we feel is suitable to our lives for the justification of our own actions.

That verse in Hebrews is specifically talking about the meeting together of Brethren--an organized even which Paul speaks about VERY often.

The verse regarding 2 or 3 being gathered together is in Matthew 18 and is hardly applicable to this discussion, since we are not talking about Church discipline or the judgement of believers together or believers gathering together to make requests to God.

We forget that the REASON why believers did not meet in buildings for long was because they were thrust out of synagogues, but then they went were they could and gathered together, intentionally. These meetings were STRUCTURED and had CLEAR INTENTIONS. A cursory reading of the Pauline Epistles will show that.

Brothers and Sisters, I am not saying that those chance meetings or brief encounters with other believers are not to be cherished--they ARE and should be. What I am saying is that we cannot wash away the command to meet together by saying it has been fulfilled by a car ride to the mall with a believer.

In the same token, I do not believe that people just showing up to a church is a fulfillment of that verse either--if there is no fellowship, no spurring on toward love and good works, no encouragement, no speaking into each others' lives, no worship--then it might as well end.

Finally, I make a practice of isolating myself with the Lord daily. I don't doubt it's importance. We are commanded to due such, especially in prayer. However, long-term isolation from an intentional gather of believers is never recommended--it may be a consequence of persecution or a lack of believers within traveling distance, but I never see it recommended.

Right on havok.

by havok
Finally, I make a practice of isolating myself with the Lord daily. I don't doubt it's importance. We are commanded to due such, especially in prayer. However, long-term isolation from an intentional gather of believers is never recommended--it may be a consequence of persecution or a lack of believers within traveling distance, but I never see it recommended.

I used to argue that we didn't need to go to church to be saved, but as iron sharpens iron, we need one another on a weekly, if not daily basis to challenge our ideas on the Bible face to face, not just online or here at SI.

God bless,
Lisa

Going to a church building is not a bad thing, not going to church building is not a bad thing, you know what is? allowing Christians that do go to church building, put you under any condemnation if you don’t. Again, as I’ve said here many times, you’ve never been really beat up, until you’ve been beat up by a Christian, because they can beat you up spiritually. Do you know who else can beat you up spiritually? Yep! you guessed it.

Havok: Very well said, and a needed course direction from my seemingly 'nonchalant' assembling. I would not suggest that our fellowship at the starbucks is what the writer of Hebrews was intending, but I do want to stress our assemblies with other brothers can for a season be found in small group settings with no pastor.

I also appreciate your post in that the ideal is pastoral leaders, elders and the ministry of the saints among themselves.

This of course is where the rub has finally showed up, where the model of Church is all platform ministry, then everyone packs up and goes home. In this way the Church was never permitted to be a 'body building Church', just a pastor building Church.

Again, I think its important to make sure we all counsel ourselves and other as biblically as possible and your post was in my opinion spot on.

There are some very good points in this thread.

I would like to add that I have attended many different types of congregations -- large and small. I've typically felt like I was more of a "stranger" at the larger congregations than most of the smaller ones.

If one of the purposes of the church gatherings is for the encouragement of the brethren (and all the more as we see that day approaching), then I've felt more encouragement and meaningful fellowship in small settings (like a dorm room Bible study and prayer meeting) than many of the large congregations I've visited.

My wife and I frequented one moderate-sized congregation for nearly two years; yet, the people of the church thought that I was a visitor for most of that time. Each service, someone would introduce themselves, shake my hand and ask if it was my first visit (sometimes the same people would do this two or three weeks in a row).

I don't fault anyone for this (*and it could have been that I just never made more effort to be a part of the church regulars' "inner circle").

Paul wrote over half the New Testament in a prison, no saying that Starbucks is much better, but I’ve seen a lot of Bible studies going on in a few different Starbucks I’ve been in. I wished I knew who that writer of Hebrews was, maybe I could ask him what he was talking about when I get to the other side. Any idea who the writer was Mr. Marvin?

by MrBillPro
Going to a church building is not a bad thing, not going to church building is not a bad thing, you know what is? allowing Christians that do go to church building, put you under any condemnation if you don’t.

Are you saying because I or the others disagree with you, that we are putting you under condemnation? :) :) :)

God bless,
Lisa

Hey Bill-

I don’t think anyone’s trying to put you down. You are a grown man and can certainly do what you want.

My experience is somewhat different from yours. In the seasons I have not been regular in attending church, I have "slipped” spiritually. There is something about corporate worship and studying the Bible together that my spirit needs. But that’s just me.

Mr Bill: The conjecture is Paul, I have a few friends that insist Paul wrote Hebrews, but if it was really that sure, the scholars would have called it, but they haven't, so Im with you we'll find out in glory.

We don't have to guess on the book of Hebrews, it was written to the Hebrews "shocker"! They understood a synagogue and the temple as normative places of meeting.

But, with the inclusion of Gentiles...times be a changin, so did the Christian gatherings, which started house to house, it was probably a couple of centuries before public worship was allowed (Constantine). But in other countries outside the Roman empire...now were talking really Out of town, a public assembly could happen.
The early fathers wrote to Churches and locales of believers, but as with Paul's letters, these were passed and copied from place to place.

It's also important to remember Pauls teachings in 1 Corinthians about Order in prophecy, gifts, order in men and women, Leadership/elders were given their 'flocks' to oversee 1 peter. The idea of Church assembly had structure to it.

It seems to me, the writer of Hebrews was seeking to encourage the Hebrews to continue in fellowship, breaking of bread, communion and prayer together. Some of those Hebrews were having second thoughts on all this Christianity stuff...with so much persecution from their own brothers and by the Romans too, it seemed as if their departure from the faith would be halted if they would return to 'assembling themselves together' and encourage one another.
But this form of assembly put so loosely by the writer of Hebrews can be taken in a variety of ways and I expressed that variety.

Yet, the ideal is structure, a communal body of believers not just loosely formed but having a Pastor or Elder to rule, prophets or teachers to instruct and admonish.
This is why our present 'official' Churches contain structure and leaders.

The rub it seems, is in our culture we immediately call for structure and governments in a Church body, and with that structure and government relegate the work of the ministry to that professional 10% while the rest are indoctrinated to passivity and inoculated against 'doing your own thing' lest you be thought a rebel not submitting to authority.

It surely wont be fixed by my or anyones cynicism over the matter, it is going to be fixed by prayerful men, tackling the difficult task of remolding the 'structure' to one conducive to order and yet gives freedom for the body to serve God according to their own giftings and abilities in Christ.

Isolationism is a knee-jerk reaction to problems inherent in our congregations, but I do not see how forsaking one another is going to fix our 'getting together' problems.

Sorry, I definitely wasn’t calling anyone out, I was just speaking in general. Usually "for the record” unless I forget, if I’m speaking to anyone personally, I will put their name/names up yonder where is says Re: :-)

I totally understand, some have to be involved in a church fellowship to stay on that narrow path, I’ve personally done an excellent job of staying on the narrow path, with my home fellowship.

"Isolationism is a knee-jerk reaction to problems inherent in our congregations, but I do not see how forsaking one another is going to fix our 'getting together' problems”.

I really think it’s deeper than that, because sometimes we need knee-jerk reactions to get us away from congregations that are not producing any fruit. Read Christophers reply again real slow, because a lot of what he said is exactly why I’ve left many churches.

MrBillPro,

I totally get what you mean by being beat up. When I was a young Christian, I went to a church that was flourishing--the people loved one another, good doctrine was taught, and accountability was held. That was the ONLY church that I have attended where I witnessed church discipline in action--it was one of the most beautiful things I had ever seen, because the person repented and everyone gathered around them and told them they would be there for them, and it is STILL that way to this day.

Then, when I went off to college, I went to a church where I became a youth minister. It started out okay, but when I started holding people accountable (like was done at my previous church) they began to reject me. My last day at that church went like this: I had called a meeting about how to get more youth's parents involved in the youth group (the Pastor was in attendance). It quickly progressed to a meeting about why they didn't need a youth minister anymore and the pastor could not lift his eyes from the ground long enough to defend me, though he KNEW I was right in what I said.

Since then, I have been at several churches and even at the church that I have called home for the past 9 years I have faced rejection, confidences being broken, lies being told about me, I have been spoken evil of--even by my current pastor. I have faced more persecution from believers than I ever have from the world! And you know what, it hurts. It hurts bad and the temptation was to sull up and just forget the whole thing or go find a congregation that agrees with everything I say.

But that isn't the plan from the Lord. I LOVE my brothers and sisters, as imperfect as we all are. I forgive them, even though some of them have done me wrong. And the relationships that I currently have with them?--they are good, not because of me, but because Christ is in me and in them and He is bringing us all to completion.

---------

That being said, all believers need to bring themselves into submission to other believers, within the constructs of an assembled body of believers. This is why we wind up "rag[ing] against all wise judgment". If we are not in submission to other believers, we will stumble into pride and it will infect everything we do. We will end up justifying our actions because of it, and we will be worse for wear.

Brother, you are a member of the body--a vital organ! Which of your organs is able to survive detached from the body? None of them. They may live for a moment, but too long detachment results in their death, and the injury or death of the body to which it belongs. This isn't just about you, this is also about fulfilling your role within the context of a local gathering of believers.

Sorry for the long post, but there is a lot to say regarding this.

Mr Bill:

Allow me to speak bluntly.

You are an edifying and gracious man. You staying away from folks that need that very thing-your gracious and kind spirit, you are the cause of what you complain about.

Your experience and knowledge of God, your willingness to read folks like me who are seemly the opposite of what you are and still address me in grace, friendliness of tone, interest, that brother is just a few of the many things you have to offer.

Personally I don't give a hoot that some other congregation was not productive, sometimes it's just good to move on and obtain a place and people that God will fit you into.
Bill, brother don't waste time avoiding the personal contact with the people of God, they need you, they were created for your input, your life, your opinions, your hopes and dreams. Likewise you were created for the input of others and this website testifies to that fact every since I've been here.

Times and seasons of relocating oneself is pretty common. But relocate somewhere. I think I read somewhere you are quite a distance from various congregations, I do not doubt for a moment God will put you into a place where your life, will benefit others...because Jesus is your life and he is evident in you.

My exhortation is just that, I'm exhorting you to engage face to face with the people of God, you need them, they need you and that is the plan and will of God for us all.

Lastly brother, do not read this as some bullet from me, if I were face to face with you I would be even more bold and tell you "Bill get in the car where goin somewhere and knock on doors until the Lord opens one for us" Here I can only exhort by word, if I were with you, it would be in deed.

sometimes we need knee-jerk reactions to get us away from congregations that are not producing any fruit.

Bill, For sure, God can design creative means for turfing us out for our good. It may not be pleasant! Still, a bad church is not a reason to leave, and a good church is not a reason to stay. I’ve come to see that it’s more about God’s program for ourselves. We are inclined to make it more about "them guys” while God is thinking about us - what’s good for our spiritual growth. Perhaps he wishes to make us less dependent on people, the church itself ”“ through the irritations (God's grace-builders). Perhaps he’s tempering our snobbishness or giving us a place to practice living forgivingly.

My story is strange. After I was drawn out of an evangelical church I was called (quite against my "better judgment”) into a liberal leaning church. I thought I’d serve there as music director for a few weeks, but ended up there 13 years. I learned how not to sneer when I heard announcements about card games. I learned how not to polish my own sense of self-righteousness whenever I heard liberal leaning stuff (though it grieved me). I simply lived as a believer before them, and as able, affirmed the gospel message through the songs, scriptures, and conversation, building relationships.

Today I am a circuit rider (without the horse), going around preaching the good news (sometimes also playing organ or piano) in dying liberal churches ”“ mostly rural churches that can’t afford a full time clergy.
I never cease to be blessed by the surprising flickers of faith. Those folk do me a lot of good. For one thing, I am learning to "see through their eyes” - and that is important in preparing my messages.

Bill, through my occasional postings here you no doubt get a drift of my theological leanings. Do you think my present church life might be compromising my faith growth?

Diane

Many years ago, I had a dream - I saw a friend of mine being angry at some clergy person who had heavily wounded him. It was a very sad dream... not knowing if the dream was true, I prayed for my friend.

We were in different cities at the time, so it took a while before I had the chance to catch up with him. Indeed, he had left church (many years later, my friend would tell me that he did not see Christianity being true in his life nor in the lives of others).

At that time, I thought that the solution to his situation was to find a better church - it almost seems obvious, right? However, my many disappointments with church community eventually took its toll on me... then I realized things are not that simple.

We might tell those who no longer attend church (be it Christians, or those who have left the faith) about the necessity and benefits of church gatherings, even quoting Scripture to them. But people do not leave church after long years of engagement for frivolous reasons.

Perhaps a more effective way to minister to these people is to spend time with them, listen to their story, show them that you care. Whether they will attend church again is altogether a different issue - but they would have encountered Christ in you.

And isn't that what church is about?

"...through my occasional postings here you no doubt get a drift of my theological leanings. Do you think my present church life might be compromising my faith growth?"

Any here a mathematician?

Please figure out this equation:

What is the equivalent of:

faith growth âž— church life = theological leanings with a remainder of occasional postings

Clue to the answer - You must have graduated from kindergarten to even get close to the right answer.

See you in Theology 101 class in Facing-Both-Ways Church next Christmas!

Diane said...Do you think my present church life might be compromising my faith growth?

Remember, his thoughts and are not our thoughts, and his ways are not our ways, this is why I am probably the most reserved person on earth in my answering questions on what God might be doing in another persons life. Diane, don't you wonder sometimes if the folks trying to tell you "even in love" whats Gods doing in our life, if they even know what God is doing in their own life?

Look, I know we all here want to try and help each other, and I cherish the words Brother Marvin said in his response to me, it brought many tears to my eyes. Maybe what he said was from God, but all I'm hearing at the moment, is "be still, and rest for my plans for you are near". Diane, this might give us all a little prospective, they're over 7 billion folks on earth, some might say well not all are believers, so rule out what they say and do, God's not working in their lives, WRONG! I can look back and see so many times he was working in my life when I was acting stupid, I couldn't see it at the time, but it's clear as glass today.

7 Billion, he can achieve a lot of different things with that's many folks, question is, will he have some doing the same EXACT things, or a little something different for everyone? My message here in my above example, is how can we possibly know what Gods doing in someones life, you would have to be God to know. I'm not God, so I have no idea, so how can I possibly answer your question?

Edit Side Note: For the record before we get to carried away, I left the last church I attended, because the pastor said he doesn't believe Jesus Christ is the only way into heaven, should I have just stayed there, or run like a bear was after me?

Bill I’d be heading for the hills in that instance.

Diane, I could never answer that question, …

Actually, I suspect that a dumb reason for leaving (or joining) a church is not such big deal to God. Nor is a righteous reason. After all, He will always find something that needs further sanctification, mortification, and other refinements. As for all those admirable explanations ”“ well that can simply be our personal epistles of self-justification. Who cares!

Any here a mathematician?

De Nada.

________________

Then all the men who knew that their wives were offering sacrifices to other gods and all the women who were standing by””a large group, including all the people who were living in the land of Egypt in Pathros””answered Jeremiah: "As for the message that you reported to us in the name of the LORD, we won’t listen to you! Rather, we will keep doing everything that we said we would by offering sacrifices to the Queen of Heaven and by pouring out liquid offerings to her just as we, our ancestors, our kings, and our leaders did in the cities of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem. Then we had plenty of bread, things went well for us, and we didn’t experience disaster. From the time we stopped offering sacrifices to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out liquid offerings to her, we have lacked everything, and we have been consumed by the sword and famine. Indeed, we are going to continue offering sacrifices to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out liquid offerings to her. And do you think we have made cakes to represent her or poured out liquid offerings for her without our husbands’ approval?” Jeremiah 44:15-19

Bill: you said.

Edit Side Note: For the record before we get to carried away, I left the last church I attended, because the pastor said he doesn't believe Jesus Christ is the only way into heaven, should I have just stayed there, or run like a bear was after me?

Me, ran at him and rebuked him for unbelief and spewing that unbelief under the name of Jesus Church.
Then walked out, warning him, I will not spare, I will not help you in any way, anyone who comes to me I will tell them you are heretical, false and should never be listened to...ever.
The deity of Jesus Christ is interwoven in so many other essential doctrines of the Christian faith, pulling out that pillar collapses it all.

Probably not what most would do, but wolves in sheeps clothing receive no quarter.
An essential of the faith is exactly that, an essential element of Christian belief.
It's not that everyone knows or understands this doctrine when they are new Christians, it's those who should know better by reason of diligent study, they are tasked with guarding those who are yet unaware of falsehood disguised as friendly pastors living in my neighborhood.

You were right to leave and in my opinion right to take with you anyone born of God.

Or we could follow Matthew 18 and rebuke the sinning brother in private. Remember accusations against elders require 2 or 3 witnesses. Then they should be rebuked in the presence of all that the rest may fear.

1 Timothy 5:19-21 "Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality."

That's how this situation should be handled in any church.

That being said, saying that in this situation is was right to leave is entirely contingent on whether the brother was addressed. He could be a brother, but in serious error. He could be a wolf in sheeps' clothing, not sparing the flock. It is up to us to obey the Bible and do what it says for the sake of the church.

Let me add this:

There was one time that I discovered that my pastor was in sin. He was doing evil, but no one knew it except for me. Guess what, no one still knows about it. I talked with him in private he stopped, and after a few months, he apologized to me. And our relationship is good. The church is flourishing. God is being honored. We didn't have to go through some malicious deacons meetings, or bunches of rumor spreading or any of that to correct the problem. It was handled biblically and to the glory of God.

That is why I am a huge proponent of Biblical church discipline, because I have seen it work again and again and again. If we'd just do what the Bible said about it, then lines would be a lot clearer.

Or we publically rebuke him. False doctrine preached from the pulpit is not a 'second hand information' where its an accusation I heard from a 3rd party.

This very thing has happened in a meeting I attended. The leadership, the congregation were just sucking up what this guy said because it was delivered in a scholarly manner. But it was pure ancient heresy. So I stood and said it was heresy and was rejected by the Church long ago and is still a heresy. He didn't like that, and I didn't like doing it, but it needed done. The leadership didn't send me out, in fact I talked to them afterwards and asked them why they didn't engage the error themselves. But that not this thread.

I don't know what Bill's situation was, he didn't elaborate, and I have been confronted myself and have confronted others due to what I heard from the pulpit.
sometimes we just biff it, we don't actually believe that but it came off wrong or we explained it wrong. No problem, corrections are made and we move on. This was not done publically, but afterwards in private, not seeking to reproach him but to simply question.

Other times it's just plain falsehood being repackaged in a new wrapper with 21st century terms serving as the invite.

It's because error like I heard is preached with no regard for God or the people of God that it continues and will in fact poison their minds.

I am not contesting the 'normal' and acceptable mode of confronting error as you quoted in 1 tim. I am saying
Paul did this kind of thing, his situation was somewhat different than mine,
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

I was not going to give this man place to continue speaking to the Christians, teaching them his error so I confronted him. I did not speak to him in a mean tone, nor did I use insulting verbiage, but I let him know and the congregation know this 'new-revelation' he was teaching was in fact and old heresy rejected by the Church and has been rejected by the orthodox believer. He made it clear he would always preach this and I said, I will always resist it.
This quenched his zeal to minister afterwards to the congregation, which was an answer to my prayer.

Whether the man was a true brother or a wolf was not what the Spirit of God was attempting to show, I was resistant to the doctrine and resistant to his continuation in teaching it.

Havok you are right in that rashness would be inappropriate and unbiblical, and my post no doubt gave that impression.
Thanks for stating the biblical principles.

I don't know what Bill's situation was, he didn't elaborate

Mr Bill: I would change nothing. A man who is supposed to be God's leader and yet not sure Christ is the only way cannot offer Christ, for Christ said I am the way the truth and the life...
He must offer what he has...and whatever he has, is not Christ.

God has decided...

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

By his own mouth it is evident he has not been with Jesus...for those who have been know "none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

For him, there must be 'another name'.

Sadly he is not alone...for others have the same opinion, and the Apostle gives his judgment from God upon those of contrary opinion.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

A 'gospel' that is unsure of the way of God is a false gospel.

"Whether the man was a true brother or a wolf was not what the Spirit of God was attempting to show, I was resistant to the doctrine and resistant to his continuation in teaching it. "

Brothers,

This is precisely why Matthew 18 exists, because you don't know who is a true brother in error or who is a wolf in sheep's clothing. That is why Jude tells us to make a distinction between them. Think about this:

You are in the midst of a congregation and a man goes up to teach, spouting clear heresy. You stand up in the middle and condemn it as such and half of the people, silently disagree with you. Another half disagrees with the speaker. Now they are divided and YOU drew the line. Now there is a gaping wide foothold for the enemy to easily tear a church apart. One side fights with the other and bitter rumors start and people leave the church and see each other as enemies instead of brothers.

Now, let's take it according to Scripture: He is spouting heresy. You pull him aside and correct his error. He doesn't listen. You bring some brothers along with you, who love the man and are able to divide the word of truth. He doesn't listen. Now it goes before the whole church--the points are laid out, and it goes 1 of 2 ways:

1) He resists and takes some members with him, but it was done in the structured manner. Those who agreed with him initially have heard why it was wrong, why it was incorrect, and a Biblical defense for truth, so now they can make the decision apart from emotions. Those who left, leave because of pride. Those who stay are grieved because of the error and they grow closer together because they see the damage that heresy can do. They are more fervent for one another and love each other more.

2) He publicly recants and everyone forgives one another and he sees the error of his ways and the whole church is strengthened and Jesus Christ is honored.

There is a way to go about this. Heresy abounds in this country and we can STILL follow the Biblical mandates for how things like this should be handled, and we still should until we have exhausted those things.

I know we've gotten way off topic, but we can't be pragmatists. The test for whether what we has done is right is not whether or not it was effective--for you cannot see the full end of things--but whether it was Biblical.

We live in such a pragmatic time for Christianity--our test is whether or not it meets our expected results, and we receive very little consultation form the scriptures. This is so wrong and definitely not how it should be.

Anyhow, I feel like I've killed the horse, so I am not going to beat on him anymore unless yall ask me questions directly. Thanks for the discussion.

Havok: a good word and well said.

This quote from Sylvester Stallone is thought provoking. I like it because it rings very true in my personal experience of being churchless.

"Without the church it’s like having a boat without the rudder. You think you can do it on your own and this may sound pedestrian or trite but I’ll equate it to this: all my life I’ve been involved with exercise but no matter how much””and I know a great deal about the body””you need help. You need a trainer. You need to go to a gym and you need to have the expertise and the guidance of someone else. You cannot train yourself. I feel the same way about Christianity and what the church is. The church is the gym of the soul."

Regardless of what you think of Stallone, this quote isn't meant to condemn, just make you think.

I feel like this has been a really good discussion!