Unconditional love - Really?

I hear this phrase "unconditional love” in Christian circles all the time and it bugs me.

I am not convinced that this is actually a right depiction of God’s love for all of us. We must differentiate between God’s love for fallen mankind at the cross and the personal love of God to the saint.
God does provide elementary things to sustain human life on earth such as food, drink, shelter, and other means, but this is just common grace extended to sinners and saints alike. The only expression of love for fallen mankind is described in John 3:16. Other than that I do not think that God has a personal love toward those who live in rebellion to him.
God cannot love sinners on a personal level before they actually repent. Sin is so repulsive to God that He had to take the utmost measure to deal with it ”“ to let his Son die on a wooden cross at the hands of sinners. Only when we respond to His offer on the cross and repent and believe can we transfer from a wretched state to a blessed state of God’s pleasing.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
If Sinners are still under the wrath of God, how can he love them on a personal level?
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Only when we come to repentance and faith can God’s love be experienced on a personal level:
Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
The only but utmost love for sinners is displayed at the cross ”“ and there is no other expression of God’s love to fallen mankind.

The second phrase that bugs me is "God accepts people just as they are”. It sounds nice and kind of God, but it makes light of sin in effect. How can a God that accepts everyone as they are still command "men everywhere to repent” Acts 17:30.
I think we should better accept God as He really is and acknowledge Him in everything. This attitude will greatly help us to progress and reveal us that we are not accepted as we are but rather "accepted in the Beloved”. Eph 1:6.
We must look to Christ for everything. We must yield our everything to Christ and God will do a work our grace despite our frail humanity. We must not seek to fix our old but rather see him crucified so that our new man in Christ liveth.

//God cannot love sinners on a personal level before they actually repent. //

Are you sure you meant to type that?

Hi narrow:

This subject is like a bag of cats all jostling around in the bag and you just opened the bag to pull one out. But in pulling one out 3 more claw their way out too.

I appreciate questions like this because the answers cannot be found by mere skimming the bible for love verses. The answers are for many a little scary and for some, once they realize there is a biblical and accurate way to understand these things, are not obtained easily but it comes at a price...diligent study.

Narrow, you'll go a few rounds talking circles with folks unless you clarify some basic premises.
Who obtains the blessings of covenantal love?
Who obtains the blessings without covenantal love?
Jesus loves sinners? That means what?
Jesus accepts sinners? That means what?
Jesus died for sinners? That means what?

When these things are ironed out in your own mind ( I'm not saying they are not already clear) your approach to Christian axioms "God's unconditional love for everyone" will drastically change.

Example: Lets say you believe God only loves the elect. In this case when you present the gospel to an unbeliever, your witness is modified. In the past you might say "Jesus loves YOU!" But now, you say "Jesus came to save sinners" and leave off the personal pronoun, but instead 'label' the person in terms of their current covenantal status.
Why the change? Because for you, you don't know if God actually loves them specifically and in fact your message is not to declare to the unbeliever 'covenantal love', but rather if God gives them repentance and faith and they believe upon Jesus...they will declare themselves that God loves them.
For others, this kind of God is scary; namely because they are not in the drivers seat driving their life with the license that "God loves me"; in their heart they say "I'm not on love with God and don't know if I want to be."

I hope you can see where this is going? Do you want to declare a gospel that assumes the covenantal love of God to an unbeliever when in fact there is nothing in scripture or the world that necessitates God love them? In this case you may sense that you are presuming on God.

Other cats get out of the bag too, namely can God love those upon whom his wrath is currently upon them? Is this a contradiction to electing love? Is it a contradiction to the gospel?

Anyway Narrow, the cats are out, but who will respond willing to put one back in?

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:8

35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
Luke 6:35-36

I agree with your statement on repentance. God can accept any being only when they repent from their own ways. No one either born again or not, cannot be accepted by God without repentance.

But I still believe God loves sinners but he hates sin. It is like I as a father love my child but hate the sickness in them. So I have to restrain my children from those things that make them sick.

Prodigal Son's case is a clear example, the father could accept the Son only when he repented. But the father loved the son all the time, yet he chose not to visit his son when he was longing for pigs food.

A born again person living in sin beaks his fellowship with God. But God still loves him.

A perfectly loving God should also punish the sinners because they have sinned against his other children whom also God loves. God cannot show partiality if he perfectly loves them. Hence a loving God has to show his wrath.

When I tried to end my life as a person who was hateful toward my Mum I heard God's audible voice which resonated with love for me . But he also revealed to my heart a few minutes later that I was condemned. I had believed that there must be an after life and if I was good and kept doing good things that I would receive it.

That's when I was shown I was forbidden from it. It gave me a terrible depression but a short while after I found salvation and was born again of the Holy Spirit through a preacher in our city centre.

I don't know if God loves everyone but just thought I would say he does love the lost.

A few quick points;
1- Jesus loves everyone
2- Jesus’s love is not tantamount to salvation
3- repentance positions us to receive/actualize Gods love which can lead to salvation
4- Gods attributes are mutually inclusive, meaning He doesn’t stop one to initiate another; Gods love, justice, wrath, mercy, etc... are simultaneous

The gospel has been reduced (in many circumstances) to "God loves you”
without a sobering call to repentance- FACT
The apostles were murdered in the streets for the message they proclaimed- FACT
The message they proclaimed wasn’t simply "Jesus loves you”- FACT

So the "question of Gods agape love for the world” is (for me) without question, for He has clearly and eternally expressed that by the cross of Christ-
(For me) the question is how we respond to Gods love demonstrated in Christ and Him crucified... ie; do we love Him???

If we do we will obey Him and when we fail His grace, we will ask forgiveness and repent believing He is faithful to restore and empower us to walk upright before Him as a testimony to a lost and dying world~

The cross is the one and only and all sufficient expression of God's love to sinners. There is no other.

The biblical gospel message to the Gentiles should not be "God loves you" but repent and believe, as per Acts 17. I do not see any precedent in the bible where someone said "God loves you" to an unbeliever, neither Jesus, Paul, or Peter.

We must talk to them about sin, righteousness and judgment the same thing that the Holy Spirit convicts.

The Gentiles have the witness of creation. The Jews have the law and the prophets that point to the Messiah, Acts 2, 3 7 and 13.

Once you repent an believe the love of God can be experienced on a personal level otherwise you are still under Gods wrath. Paul give a very detailed explanation of the Gospel to both Jews and Gentiles in Romans. He starts in chapter 1 with the wrath of God and elaborates on man's perversion. Now after 2000 years we think we know better and preach "God loves you"

//I do not see any precedent in the bible where someone said "God loves you" to an unbeliever, neither Jesus, Paul, or Peter.//

Maybe not, but that does not mean it’s not a true statement. Plus you are forgetting that Jesus didn’t have to tell them because he loved them in a practical manner.

You would not be able to count the number of times that Billy Graham told his audience that God loved them. Why did he tell them this? Because it’s truth right out of Bible!

Amen Bear. God is love. He can't deny Himself.

Rusty

I knew that this passage would come up and I cannot deny that Jesus showed him his love that moment. The word is indeed agape. Point taken. I think the young man triggered Jesus love for the first steps he took: running to him, kneeling, wanting to do something to attain eternal life. He was on track to break through and Jesus wanted him to succeed.

It was this drawing grace that came out of Jesus that moment because he wanted to draw him against a strong force lurking inside that poor fellow. In the end, the appeal of wealth and honor prevailed in this tug-of-war in his soul.

But where is he now? He is most likely condemned without parole. He went away grieving and is in much stronger grief now. He is under the wrath of God now.

Is that unconditional love? Did Jesus show the same love for both dying thieves, Herod and Pilate?
There was the expression of ultimate love for them at the cross for them - and it was rejected.

I was hoping someone would see what I see when questions like that are asked. You actually have to go back and take a closer look at scripture without adding your own emphasis.

Many texts suggest the love of God while we were enemies of God.
Roms 5. "While we were yet sinners"
John 3 "For God so loved the world he gave"

and other more specific such as bear quoted. "Jesus loved him"

There is no question God loves people while they are yet in their sins, but maybe another question needs to be asked and bears text explicitly denotes the quandary.

Jesus loved him, but he went away, disobedient, unsaved, unwilling.
Telling folks "God loves you" can have the same effect as Jesus love toward the rich young ruler, Jesus loved...the ruler didn't want Jesus.

To Narrow's point, telling folks "God loves you" can in fact be misleading in that if they "know God loves them" it's difficult to send someone you love to hell, therefore they may stay their own course because fear of judgment is mitigated.

But remember the scripture contains more text than this.
"all that the Father giveth me, cometh to me." Jn 6:37.
Another question is raised.."did not the Father give to Jesus the rich young ruler?" He may not have, therefore he didn't come.

The point is, Jesus even when he loved, didn't use that as the motivational point for his calling to the young man.
He actually used the law and compassion to certify whether or not the young man would take up following Jesus with the other 12.

Romans 8:38-39 New International Version (NIV)

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I see our Father’s Love as conditional in the sense of where it can be accessed - only IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.
Blessings

Showing that Jesus on the earth loved sinners (using rich young ruler) does not prove that God loves sinners. Jesus when he was on earth, he was 100% man and 100% God. As a Man he had to obey the command to 'love your neighbor'. If Jesus did not love the sinners around them then he has sinned which does not qualify to be a sacrifice.

But in New Covenant, Jesus gave us a new Command to Love our brothers (John 13:34). This command is higher than 'love your neighbor'. The reason being God shows a special higher standard of love to Born again believers who follow Jesus. Hence we who are born again should also reciprocate the same love towards our brothers.

//But where is he now? //

Some folks think he was Joseph of Arimathea

Lots of cats coming out of the bag. The hypostatic union, the covenant of God, God's love for his people, God's universal call, man's unwillingness to say "yes" to Jesus even when Jesus gives a direct invitation to become a disciple. Obedience to the gospel, covenantal promises given to covenantal people.

Roms 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

So what does it mean when God "commends his love toward us?"
Does it mean show, or prove or recommend?

And to Narrow's point; when is the love of God shed abroad in our hearts? Is it when we are in rebellion to God? Or is in reconciliation to God?

If its in our rebellion, is that love toward sinners "as they are" meaning 'unconditionally' or is the point of knowing the love of God meant to be understood only in terms of reconciliation with God?

Can a sinner 'know the love of God' and not be transformed by it? Is there a difference between an unbelievers knowledge of the love of God and a Christians knowledge of the love of God? What makes the difference?

I understand the scripture to hold out to the sinner that God's love can be known and received. But while the sinner is still in his rebellion, the love of God that he might come to know will never be known ( in terms intimate knowledge of God's goodness toward him) until he has been reconciled. This is part of the gospel, that God's love can be known and received, but as Narrow so clearly remarked, telling unbelievers they are 'loved of God' is at best a half/truth and may in fact be a whole lie.

It is God's proper right to prove, show and commend his love towards those whom he has chosen to love and elect. The gospel does not include this secret knowledge, our message is to declare what can be known. "Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners".

When God has done his work of reconciliation this follows.

Roms 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

This whole thread is ridiculous.

"For God didn’t give a rip about the world but He gave His only begotten son anyway [who was brutalized and crucified by the way ] so that whosoever [ie the folks God can’t stand] believes on Him shall not perish (much to God’s disappointment) but have everlasting life.”

The only problem is that’s not what the Bible says, thank goodness.

Todd: Narrow made some pretty strong judgments on just how we should speak of the love of God.

I think this is a good way to lay out what scripture says, I feel the thread if far from ridiculous, reviewing our assumptions is not a bad thing.

Questioning how we speak of the love of God in a clear biblical manner is a good thing too.

It's a fair question to ask " If God loves me, why am I on my way to hell? That doesn't sound like a loving God to me!

It's because unbelievers ( when they have the audacity) sometimes do ask those kinds of questions that discussions on this topic can bring biblical answers.

I personally enjoy these discussions because when I teach new believers and unlearned believers, I get to read and consider viewpoints far different from my own. I want to learn so that I may help the faith of others.

A great brother in the faith once said "Is Jesus Lord?"
I said, yes he is Lord. He said "prove it". It is that kind of questioning that lead me to think clearly why I believe what I believe.

so, here I am.

Im sure not asking questions in order to depict God as an unwilling savior who derives more pleasure in punishment than mercies. What we all want to do is depict God accurately out of love for God.

I hope you will give it a second chance.

Sree said:

Showing that Jesus on the earth loved sinners (using rich young ruler) does not prove that God loves sinners. Jesus when he was on earth, he was 100% man and 100% God. As a Man he had to obey the command to 'love your neighbor'. If Jesus did not love the sinners around them then he has sinned which does not qualify to be a sacrifice.

You make it sound like Jesus only loved people because He was compelled to by the Law and that if it wasn't for the ordinance to love your neighbor, He wouldn't.

-Daniel

//Questioning how we speak of the love of God in a clear biblical manner is a good thing too. //

I think it’s the title of the thread that bugs me.

Obviously there are different layers to the onion of Gods love.

But God’s love toward his creation (humans) is unconditional in the sense that he had a plan in place to save them and the Bible says it was out of love that he did this.

Everybody knows (well at least everybody here I hope) that there is no true love relationship possible with God unless there has been repentance and belief.

But I surely don’t think it is wrong t tell unbelievers that God loves them. It’s a true statement, and like I said Billy Graham said it countless times.

The love God showed on the cross to all mankind is universal and ultimate. There is no greater expression of the love possible.

Therefore it is a love that has the right to command: repent and believe!

The person who rejects this offer is condemned already.

Read on in John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It is never Gods fault when someone does not repent.

God no longer loves sinners in hell, he must hate them, otherwise he would not subject them to everlasting and unbearable torment.

God's love is ultimate on the cross.
Ultimate love rejected leads to
God's ultimate wrath in hell.

..but I cannot see God's love as unconditional, rather as ultimate.

//It is never Gods fault when someone does not repent.//

I certainly agree although some folks certainly believe this without saying it so explicitly.

//God no longer loves sinners in hell, he must hate them, otherwise he would not subject them to everlasting and unbearable torment. //

That sounds like a rationalization to me to address an idea that is repellant.

Does God love sinners? I believe everybody here agrees that, yes indeed, He does love sinners.

It is the question, "Does God hate sinners?" that is not easy to answer. But the bible, I believe, is clear in its answer - YES! Among many, these 2 verses come to mind.

Psalm 11:5 - The Lord tests the righteous,
But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

John 3:36 - He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Again, does God love sinners? Yes
Does God hate sinners? Yes

This contradiction is settled on the cross.

The only problem Bear is that Calvinism would say that God predestined who the sheep and the goats are. So if God hates the goats as some here suggest that means he created goats to hate. Doesn’t sound very nice to me. In fact it sounds downright nasty.

Perhaps it will help to reflect upon John 16:27 -"For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from God.” Here the Greek is "phileo” - personal love of intimate friends. This is the relationship Abraham had with God, for he was called "friend” (philos) of God.
Paul wrote "and everyone who does not "phileo” the Lord, be anathema.”

James also wrote that "friendship” (another form of phileo) with the world is enmity with God.”

God IS love, "agape”, but God only "phileos” (befriends) those who "phileo” Him. Agape is a love that God has for the whole world, but phileo is a love between close friends.

God loved (agape) the world, but He phileos only those who phileo Him

Jesus said,

John 10

"Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever does not enter the sheepfold by the gate, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2But the one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen for his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will flee from him because they do not recognize his voice.”

6Jesus spoke to them using this illustration, but they did not understand what He was telling them. 7So He said to them again, "Truly, truly, I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who came before Me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and have it in all its fullness.

11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd, and the sheep are not his own. When he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf pounces on them and scatters the flock. 13The man runs away because he is a hired servant and is unconcerned for the sheep.

14I am the good shepherd. I know My sheep and My sheep know Me, 15just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”

19Again there was division among the Jews because of Jesus’ message. 20Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him?”

21But others replied, "These are not the words of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

22At that time the Feast of Dedicationa took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple courts in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25"I already told you,” Jesus replied, "but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. 26But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Sounds good to me Mak.

I suggest using the powerful bible study tools available to us to search out the uses of "phileo”. The use of this word set in the context of the passages the writer chose to employ it will prove very helpful in understanding the distinction between general love "agape” and a love based upon shared interest and heartfelt connection - "phileo”.

I personally was helped by doing what I am suggesting.

Mak

Well said makrothumia (Alan), I have said the same in this thread as well, but never done the research that you have, neither am I interested in Greek research! It proves that God will reveal to even a babe like me what only people who research on Greek can understand. In my Spirit I always knew God's love for the world and God's love for disciples of Jesus are different and are of different measure.

Sree writes

~~~ Showing that Jesus on the earth loved sinners (using rich young ruler) does not prove that God loves sinners. ~~~

Okay I'm not the brightest bulb here. But exactly what does Romans 5:8 mean when it says,

~~~ But God proves his own love toward us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us! ~~~
???

Blaine

I am sure you are not the brightest (fun intended)! The quote that you posted of mine is about Jesus showing love to sinners. Romans 5:8 is about God as a father showing love. They are surely comparing Apples to oranges, not even related to the point I was making.

I still believe God loves sinners but the love that God has for disciples of Jesus is way above the love he has for sinners.

Better not ring Cal-Arm alarm, Greg will be on the case :)
God displayed his ultimate love to all mankind on the cross.
Man is commanded to repent to receive his grace and experience his love on a personal level.
Failure to do so on man's side will leave him under eternal wrath. God hates sinners who finally reject him.

Both God's love and wrath of God is ultimate and conditional to our repentance and if we bring worthy fruit by works of faith. Here is another can of worms:
Intial conversion is by faith and repentance, but on judgment day it will be works of faith that validate if our once confessed faith is worth the blessed entry into heaven.

The man who initially believed but never bore fruit in his life and just continued to live for his pleasure will face God's wrath, and join those who never believed.

We must hold the 2 verses in balance, they are both true for all humans.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 1:18-19
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

It seems we all agree that covenantal love of God toward his own sheep is 'true love' expressed, received and reciprocated.

Since God has what is being referred to as a 'general love', or a benevolent love for the lost, yet that love is not saving love, nor is it electing love.

So which one is being spoke of when someone says "God loves you", is it a general love that by our own admission does not save or a covenantal love that we know they don't have but declare it anyway?

Anyone willing to answer?

The biblical term to describe God’s love is EVERLASTING.

The usual meaning of the word unconditional is `without conditions or reservations; absolute meaning people
need to be loved and accepted unconditionally - without any conditions of performance

Unconditional love cannot be based upon performance or it wouldn't be unconditional. Therefore, it must be based on the intrinsic worth of the person.

Now the well-instructed Christian immediately recognizes a number of serious errors in this teaching of the
Humanistic psychologists and others.

You must not ignore the God of burning holiness who has declared that certain behavior is right and good.

Certain behavior is wrong and evil.

God, in a judgmental and restrictive way demands that all men do what is right and good.

The term "unconditional love" was coined by
Erich Fromm, an atheist in 1934 and developed in his 1956 book ‘The art of loving’

Fromm naively believed a father’s love was always conditional. A mother’s love unconditional and couldn’t be forfeited by sins or transgression.

Fromm taught that a person must love himself, accept himself, and esteem himself in order to reach his highest potential. He did not see love as coming from outside himself.

~ Most of this article from an article found on internet search. ~ eileen

6 For the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.”[a]
7 As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by its father? 8 If God doesn’t discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children at all.

//God hates sinners who finally reject him.//

Why do you keep saying this?

Does a judge have to hate someone he sentences to death?

Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 33:11

//So which one is being spoke of when someone says "God loves you", is it a general love that by our own admission does not save or a covenantal love that we know they don't have but declare it anyway?

Anyone willing to answer?//

I know I keep harping on Billy Graham, but he told his audience in every sermon that "God loves you.”

I just saw a tribute to Billy (very well done and sobering) and in one of the clips he was preaching and said that when Jesus was hanging on the cross it was God’s way of saying "I love you”. Then he looked out across the audience moving his eyes across the audience while saying " and he loves you, and you, and you...”

Why would Billy say such a horrible thing?

But I’ll tell you there were a lot of tears in the audience and I was about set to start bawling myself.

Hi Todd:

All of us pattern ourselves and our Christianity after some other man in some way or another, either in terms of sermon adherence, or lifestyle or, some other kind of thing. Todd, you are not the first or last to derive credibility and truth from and a man of God you respect.

I too respect and thank God for what Billy Graham and his Son Franklin have done through Christ.

Over the years I have come to question a great deal of what passes as biblical Christianity, some of it is simply methodological, others doctrinal, some not worth arguing for or against. This topic is important to me because I do evangelise, I do speak to unbelievers on the streets and wherever I meet them.

When I asked the readers, If they say "God loves you" what do you mean when you say it to an unbeliever, I was hoping to find some that would say neither, because as I see it in scripture neither is appropriate.

The point of articulating the gospel accurately and with passion is hardly a minor subject with me.
I do not declare "God loves you" with the meaning that "God is good to the just and the unjust, he makes the rain fall on the righteous and unrighteous". Because folks do not understand 'common grace' or 'benevolent love' as some lesser form of God's divine love, they equate all equally.
When I declare the love of God demonstrated by God's crucified Son, I do not declare they have received that love, only that such a love is available to them. It's offered as part of the gospel. As it has been declared by several the cross is God's 'show' of love to sinners, but in that cross is also forgiveness, mercies, a covenant relationship with God. I do not declare forgiveness before they have believed and repented, nor do I declare mercies until they have believed God to receive mercy.
Declaring the love of God for me is the same as declaring the forgiveness of God or the mercy of God, I cannot properly express covenant blessing without them first being reconciled.

So, my answer is "neither" I offer the love of God as a result of seeking God for forgiveness and mercies. If they will believe God to forgive and show mercy, God will give them the Spirit of God to shed abroad in their hearts the love of God...God tells them inwardly they are loved and they are forgiven and they are given mercy.

For me, Billy was presuming, but my post here has nothing to do with scrutiny of Billy's preaching, it is my understanding of scripture so that I offer Electing love, Saving love, Covenantal love upon reception of the gospel.

Telling folks God loves them specifically is not explicit in the scriptures, so I don't need to explicitly declare it.
But people need more than implied love because some stranger tells them they are loved by the God who is this moment going to throw them into hell...not because he's a mean God, but because he is a really good God and we are really bad people who reverse the truth of who's good and who's not.

For me, there is not obligation at all in scripture to declare 'common grace', nor am I under necessity to presume 'electing love' is truly theirs regardless of their stand with God. I am responsible to declare faithfully what is written, and what is written is a God who loved who gave, a God who showed his love by sending his Son, a God who has done everything necessary to secure a true and real relationship with his fallen creation. Those truths I can declare without hesitancy and with explicit scriptural proof.

There is a reality my brother, that reality is God does make vessels unto dishonor and vessels that he intends to destroy. God can make whatever he wants for his own purposes. Romans 9 clearly declares that is the kind of God we are to love and worship according to scripture.

Calvinism does not so heartlessly declare God "makes em to bakem". That is a caricature of their teaching.

But, the reformed such as I am seek to understand and declare God as God is revealed in scripture even when I don't have all the answers.

TMK, I believe we can proclaim JESUS is God’s love for sinners. IN Him and through Hiim men can receive love and mercy. Outside of Jesus, men only receive God’s general kindness, for we know God is kind to the wicked and the ungrateful.

But to experience the love of God, there is only one way - through believing in Jesus. God has limited His grace to ONE SOURCE. Outsiide of Christ there is no fellowship with God, no pardon, no mercy.

I know that you already know this, but since the discussion has become what can we accurately proclaim, then it is imperative that we preach Jesus Christ is the only love of God possible. Outside of Him, all is judgment. Only IN Jesus, is there forgiveness, reconciliation, and spiritual life.

Jesus is the love of God

This is well put. We have no intrinsic goodness that attracts God to us. Christ is the only and ultimate experession of God's love to all man.

Well I agree-

When Billy G said that Jesus hanging on a cross was God’s expression of love for his audience, he always followed up by saying that they had to repent and believe.

ADD: the only reason I am referencing Billy G is because he readily comes to mind as someone who preached that God loved sinners.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=2142

Paul washer's unconditional love is equal to covenantal love expressed toward his redeemed.

In listening to dozens and dozens of P.W. sermons there is nothing that leads me to believe he has an affinity towards "God loves you" that is not enshrouded by all the things mentioned in previous postings.

It is too bad the other various topics that surfaced are not followed up. There were a great many biblical truths mentioned in relation to this topic. I hope that this thread is not ending because of some silly calvy-armin squabble.

I understand it is also 'work' to think out these things, articulate them and submit them for scrutiny. But it's good for you to be questioned.

I remember debating a brother on a topic and after dozens of rebuttals and clarifications I won...only to find out later I was dead wrong and he was right. But he was unsure in his own mind while I was sure in my own mind. Yet, my confidence was in Christ, God corrected me...and that brother if he were here, I would openly commend him for telling me I was all wet...because I was and didn't know it.

Some times though, it's tough to read through other peoples learning processes.

I recall a preacher at one time saying something like this...

You may refuse Gods offer in Christ and end up going to hell... but it will not be because you were not loved

This is an interesting topic. Here is a passage of Scripture for your consideration:

Luke 6:32-36 (KJV)

32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

God calls us to love our enemies. Is it too much to think that God would not do the same? This doesn't mean that God ignores sin or that God's judgment would be clouded by His love. The only thing that separates us from those condemned to Hell is that we believed on Him and had our names written in His book. Otherwise, we would be no different from everyone else in this world (whether we acknowledged His existence or not).

Totally agree Chris- I brought those verses up earlier in the conversation but looking back I do not believe I completed my thought- which you just did.

It seems rather strange that God would say "do as I say, not as I do” in this instance. In fact I am quite sure He never says this.

ADD: except where He says, in effect, "don’t you do this, let Me do it instead.” (Eg, revenge, judging)

Yes, Christ set the example.

The right understanding of Gods love will lead us into biblical and effective evangelism.

Ro 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

This universal love to sinners is expressed in Christ crucified only. It only becomes personal upon your repentance, believe and subsequent baptism.

It is unbiblical to say to non-believers: You are special to God, he loves you as you are, just accept his love for you. Just say a little prayer and you are forever secure, job done.
A wrong approach to evangelism leads to pseudo-converts. They are goats who always need to be driven and entertained. These cannot endure sound teaching and will turn against you when you preach about self-denial, suffering and enduring hardships.

I would say the biblical way is something like this: We are all born sinners and continue to sin against our fellow man created in God's image and an against a just, holy and almighty God. We deserve eteral damnation for that, but we can escape it. Do not go on sinning, for God commands everyone to repent and believe in his Christ crucified. He will take away your sins, justifies you gives you eternal live. You must continue to follow him and his Holy Spirit helps you all along your walk with him.

Hi narrowpath,

I agree with the essence of what you're saying. At the same time, I do believe that God personally loves each person whether they are a believer or not. After all, we love Him because He first loved us.

I don't believe that God saw the world as a faceless, impersonal entity when Jesus said that "God so loved the world that....WHOSOEVER..."

The words and message of the third chapter of John are explicit in calling for belief AND repentance.

Jesus was speaking directly to Nicodemus the Pharisee ("Verily, verily, I say unto THEE..."). Nicodemus was not born again (at least not yet). This is the purpose of our Lord's message.

Despite of the love that God had for the world and the fact that He sent His Son into the world and the fact that the Son is the only way by which mankind can be saved, there was still a call for repentance.

.......

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 3:15-21

.......

The fact that people must turn to Christ and repent doesn't negate the love that God has for each of us. I stress the word "each" because that is how I believe that the eyes of the Lord see the whole earth. Each person matters to him because he is love.

Consider the words of I John 4:7-9...

.......

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

I John 4:7-11

.......

This well-known passage references the notion that "God is love" and that "herein is love" that God sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. This reinforces the idea that God sent His son -- motivated by love -- while we were yet sinners.

Of course, all of the love in the universe cannot stop the judgment of God. This is why I believe that, when we come to Christ and repent, our love is made perfect.