Salvation = obedience?

Per some of the recent threads, I am wondering what the thoughts, of the saints on SI, are regarding the role (if any) of obedience in relation to salvation/eternal life with Christ?

Hi Fletcher: I believe in a monergistic salvation. God undertook to bring our perfection to us by everything done in terms of giving of the law to the sacrifices to the giving of His own Son.
Our part is to act upon a God given faith, believe in a God given word, obey a God given gospel, and we only do this when God's Spirit has planted the word in our hearts and given us his gift of faith to act upon what we believe.

Our salvation, reconciliation, redemption, new birth and indwelling Spirit are the invisible workings of God upon the human heart. We are recipients from beginning to end of God's grace.

The unredeemed have no free will only an enslaved will, they are dead in sins, therefore if they do attempt to gain from God it will be a dead work. If while they are yet unredeemed they undertake to fulfill the law, to act in obedience to God for God's sake, that man/woman will fail miserably.

It is not until God's electing love works by the Spirit of God to birth us and indwell us do we have any power or willingness to live rightly according to the scripture.
At that point, as saints we believe the promises that God's law is not external but written in our hearts. We believe God's love is evident to us because what the cross means and who was raised up on that cross become more precious than life. We recognize that we are now his and crucified with him. His kingdom and his will and his life are utmost; therefore obedience, good works, fruitfulness are the normal outcome of being united to Christ.

We have no part to play in earning, meriting, gaining pity or moving God's heart towards us because there is some intrinsic goodness and value that obligates God not to waste such a creation and so accordingly sound wisdom dictates he save us. But God has no such obligation set upon his grace, his grace is free, his love is free and his election is according to his own willing.

The sinner is dead and therefore anything contributed by the sinner is also dead. It is not until God's Spirit has planted the word in us and with it births us...by his own power are we capable of being sons of God and giving to God the love and worship and service he deserves.

Your thoughts are well ordered and arranged in an articulate, and I believe accurate, expression of your doctrine and while you already know I do not personally subscribe to a reformed grace position, I nonetheless am blessed by your earnestness, honesty and willingness to help me to understand better your understanding:)
Though we may rub on some points there are many you have drawn out that we are wholeheartedly in agreement upon, and for that I am truly grateful-

Thank you dear brother for taking the time to respond, I’m hoping to get a better understanding of how other saints view different points of doctrine without dividing over our perceived differences, as such you have made a notable contribution and I hope to hear more:)

Brother Fletcher,

thank you for the very gracious words to me. I have no peace-time brothers, I have only war-time brothers. That means anyone who is born of God is with me not against me, he is of the same body, born of the same Spirit, serves the same God, redeemed and loved by the same Christ. I link arm in arm with any Arminian as I would a Calvinist, I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, Jesus commands me to love and those who are born of God love those who have been born of God. 1Jn5:1.

Peace-time brothers are those whom you can reject if they don't fit into your camp. The older I get the more truth I see in Christ making us one body with one Spirit having one Lord I am the better and the wiser to join ranks with those whom Christ has enlisted in his army.

"Most of the discussion on this topic centers on what the true Gospel requires of us. The biblical answer begins with repentance, faith, baptism and continued, loyal obedience to Christ. But identifying what the Gospel requires of us is not the same thing as saying what the true Gospel actually is. This list of duties correctly identifies the proper response to the Gospel””not the Gospel itself.

The Gospel is a particular message of good tidings, heralded through Christ and the apostles (but only rarely by modern evangelists). It is called "the Gospel of the Kingdom" (e.g., Matt.4:23; 9:35; 24:14), because it is the proclamation of the presence of another Kingdom and another King””one Jesus (Luke 2:10-11; Isa.52:7; Acts 17:7; 20:25). This entire proclamation can be summarized by the original Christian confession: "Jesus is Lord [i.e., King]." This is what one must confess, in order to be saved (Rom.10:9). It is because He is the King that we must repent (of our former neglect of His lordship), trust Him, and be baptized into His alternative, royal society. Obedience is the obvious response to Lordship:

"Why do you call me 'Lord,' 'Lord,' and you do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46)

One is not saved by the perfection of his/her obedience, but by the determination to obey completely. This is what happens when one hears, believes, and does not rebel against the proclamation of Christ's Kingship. Baptism is the public submission to the Crown, and a pledge to loyally follow Him until death. Many reduce the Gospel to a decree of justification only. However, justification, in the context of the Kingdom of Christ, is simply the amnesty granted by the King to penitent rebels, as they return in submission to the Authority they formerly spurned.

One is not saved by 80% obedience””nor by 100% obedience (which actually is possible over short periods, by the way). One is saved by having genuinely embraced the King and the life that logically follows from having such a King. None obeys completely, but we are commanded to do so, and true disciples have every intention of doing so. Failure to obey completely is a breach of the King's law, but it is not, in itself, damning. To inadvertently violate the speed limit is not to renounce your citizenship. Likewise, a child is not disowned by his parents because he forgets to do a particular assigned chore. There is grace in this Kingdom for those whose disobedience springs from weakness, ignorance or temporary insanity (James 3:2), and not from rebellion (Matt.26:41).

The Gospel is not a message of performance-oriented acceptance with God. We are saved by the grace of the Crown, and we obey because we love the King. If we do not love the King, whatever begrudged obedience we may render is a sham. It is not salvation.”
~~Steve Gregg

Wow!!!

As I was reading over your submission, I confess that I was thinking "wow, brother Todd has really dug into this one” and then I get to the end and see it was Steve Gregg’s words...

Tho they may not be penned by you, the very fact you submitted them as a response says that they speak your position, reflecting accurately your understanding and I must say there were several times while reading that I not only agreed with but thought, "wow that was very well articulated” as some of these turns can get sticky and murky yet the writer (Steve Gregg) was able to navigate these with a learned hand, having himself been confronted by them before.

Brother Todd this submission too is very much a blessing to me and I’m grateful for it and for you taking the time to select and submit it,..
Thank you!!

Yes- he very plainly is able to express my thoughts on this issue and, for me at least, explains convincingly how obedience is linked to salvation.

We don’t have kings any more so sometimes that idea is difficult for us to grasp.

But there are examples of good kings”” I always think of Aragon from The Lord of the Rings. If I vow fealty to such a king, but at every turn try to figure out ways to avoid his directives, or do not cooperate in his purposes or even actually oppose his reign by subtle or outright subterfuge, can I really be described as a person who has truly sworn fealty to the king?

I was always struck by the "conversion” statement of Marcellus from "The Robe:”

"From this day forward, I am enlisted in His service. I offer Him my fortune, my sword, and my life. And this I pledge to you on my honor as a Roman.”

Very much relate to the "King” analogy-
Seems fitting:)

Another one is;
Is Jesus the producer and director of your life?
That’s not to say you won’t miss your lines or go off script from time to time and even occasionally get out of character,... but that’s where grace comes in to enable faith to fill in those gaps, encouraging us to continue to follow His direction to lead us and His production to supply us.
This is analogous to how (I see) our obedience to God working-

Very good contributions everyone. I myself am coming around to the position of salvation as allegiance to a Sovereign. We probably won't perfectly act in accordance with our pledge but if we return humbly to the path of submission we know we belong to God. A book that speaks of this is by Matthew Bates. It is titled: "Salvation by Allegiance Alone: Rethinking Faith, Works, and the Gospel of Jesus the King"
I am still reading it. If you read the reviews, there are some nit-picks here and there but overall I think the thrust of it is on-target.

https://www.amazon.com/Salvation-Allegiance-Alone-Rethinking-Gospel/dp/0801097975/

-Daniel

I see the gospel presentation is actually two part.

The first part of the gospel is the introduction of the law and Christ's fulfillment of the law, making himself the perfect sacrifice. All this is to clear the way for redemption and reconciliation between a rebellious man and a good God. Once God has effected a change of heart, the sinner believes, repents and calls upon God. Now God's intention from the beginning is realized...God dwelling in man.
The second part of the gospel is man's new relation to God, where God now lives in us and through us to fulfill the commands he has given and make us fruitful as Christ was fruitful. Our life is to be depiction of the gospel and kingdom rule, whereby even when we sin, God's grace which is abundant in Christ is given and the believer continues to move toward more and more conformity to Christ's own life.

The gospel reconciles, then it sanctifies. The gospel redeems, then it bears fruit. The gospel offers alienated man a new heart to begin a new life in a real relationship with God. When that new life is indwelling by the Spirit, new works, new ambitions, new plans, new service, new attitudes, new surrenders, new sacrifices all emerge.

The good news for a sinner is he can be reconciled and the enmity between him and God done away with permanently. The good news for the Christian is he no longer has a heart for the world or for sin or for self, his heart has God's law written upon it, and it is always in the presence of the Spirit of God.
The sinners heart lived by his own reason
The Saints heart now lives by faith in the Son of God.

A Christian does not reconcile himself, save himself, sanctify himself, remove any enmity, create any new relationship with God. God himself has undertaken that in the work of redemption through Christ.
The Christian learns what it means to live a life of reconciliation, he learns that God transforms his mind, sanctifies his desires, purges his sinful ambitions. The Christian experiences grace instead of the previous alienation, acceptance instead of estrangement, love instead of guilt and shame.

We live what we offer, we speak of what we know, we rejoice to share what we too have received. The gospel we preach is a gospel not only received that brought salvation, but received every day through the power of the Holy Spirit making all that God has promised effectual in us to God's glory.

We are living epistles known and read of all men.

Thank you for sharing the book-
And we find accord in that we probably won’t perfectly accord;)

It’s like acting out a role in a play, no two people would act out the same role identically as each would bring their particular experience and talents into the character even tho the script is the same- much like with the gospel...

Brother Marvin,

I’m definitely tracking with you in your last writing, and see it very similarly:)

As for the Cal/Arm topic...
staying with the director/producer analogy;
The Calvinist essentially see how the director/producer selects/elects specific persons for specific roles-
The Armenian essentially sees the producer/director having auditions where certain persons are selected/elected for specific roles-
While I’m well aware this analogy falls short of the full spectrum, I personally see it as both... the director/producer does have the authority to select whomever He wants apart from any audition, while at the same time holds casting calls and auditions;)

Dear Daniel @ TrueWitness,

I can remember a time when you did not adopt such beliefs concerning the doctrine of salvation (from what I could glean from your forum posts). It is disturbing to see that your position has been evolving away, even departing, from the simple truth of salvation by faith alone, through grace alone.

As a brother in the faith, let me urge you to be prayerful and discerning concerning the "Salvation by Allegiance Alone" book that you are reading. Is it the same gospel that the apostles preached? (Gal 1:8-9)

How is "salvation by allegiance" different from "salvation by works"? If salvation is by allegiance, then what makes the New Covenant any different to the Old Covenant?

You might recall the famous OT passage Joshua 24:19-28, where the Israelites pledge their allegiance to God. If anything, the passage clearly shows that we cannot pledge and fulfill our allegiance to God without *first* being born-again. I trust you are well aware of Gal 3:21-25, which states the entire purpose of the law was to show that we cannot serve God, we cannot live up to our promises, and we cannot remain obedient / in allegiance to God - thus showing our need for Christ.

You wrote that, "We probably won't perfectly act in accordance with our pledge" - so that means if salvation was by allegiance alone, you too agree that you would miss the mark. Let us not water down the meaning of allegiance - allegiance has to be 100% perfect, otherwise it is simply not allegiance. Unless the title is revised from "salvation by allegiance" to "salvation by occasional allegiance" (if you've noticed, those who preach "salvation by works" always attempt to water down the requirements of the law in some way - so that they would qualify).

Finally, I'll flag up Eli Brayley's website - he strives to explain the gospel with precision and clarity, I believe it is a good resource on gospel doctrine: http://www.timothyministry.com/

"My Lunch with Six Mormon Missionaries" is a thought-provoking article on the meaning of biblical repentance, as it pertains to salvation doctrine: http://www.timothyministry.com/2008/03/my-lunch-with-six-mormon-missionaries.html

Eli's testimony is an excellent illustration of gospel doctrine too - God did a great work in his life: http://www.timothyministry.com/2010/05/about-eli.html

I wrote all these out of due concern for a brother, as well as for my Brother's gospel.

//How is "salvation by allegiance" different from "salvation by works"? If salvation is by allegiance, then what makes the New Covenant any different to the Old Covenant?//

You are misunderstanding the order. Allegiance proves salvation but does not "cause” it.

ADD: "We are save by faith, not works. But we are not saved unless our faith works.”

I think Keith Daniel might have said that. It’s always stuck with me as a very simple statement regarding the relation of faith and works.

TMK,

If you read the book reviews on Amazon.com, it would be clear that the book's position is that we are saved by our allegiance to God. That's why it's titled "salvation by allegiance alone".

Addendum:

This article tackles the issue as to whether we are saved by faith or by our faithfulness: http://www.timothyministry.com/2014/07/faith-or-faithfulness.html

I’ve never read the book- you may be right and if so I agree we are not saved by allegiance.

The purpose for God giving His grace in Christ is for the sake of His great name to be honored through the dynamic work He performs in us. The people of the first covenant had profaned His name by their persistent disobedience and He purposes to make a New Covenant where the people would be so dynamically transformed by His working that He would show Himself Holy through their transformed conduct. If we miss this original purpose as stated in Ezekiel 36, we have missed the very heart of why God gives His grace to men.

We are saved unto the good works that have been pre-ordained for us because when men see the good works His grace produces in us - they will glorify Him, this fulfilling the reason He gives us grace.

Our Christ empowered righteous conduct is for the praise of this glorious grace. Obedience is the "end” - the goal of the New Covenant. The Law lacked power to perfect the people,but in Christ the believer is fully endowed with every thing needful for life and godliness. Our obedience is the purpose of grace - where God shows Himself holy through our Christ empowered godly conduct.

The book about salvation by allegiance attacks the watering down of what we call "faith" as being basically just mental assent to facts concerning Jesus: his divinity, his death, resurrection, etc.

We are saved by faith alone but true Biblical faith is stronger than mere agreeing with some doctrines. It is a trusting and adhering to a person, Jesus, who is also divine. Today so many are not trusting in Jesus so much as they are trusting in an arrangement God set up so that if you "believe" in Jesus, your sins are forgiven and when you die, you go to heaven. That is a caricature of the gospel that is sold day in and day out across the land.

Also, while we are not saved by good works. Good works are important. We should reflect in our lives the character of God. We are saved unto good works that we should walk in them. But to make it clear, we don't do good works to impress God of how deserving we are to go to heaven.

And to repeat the words of Jesus: Why do you call me Lord if you don't do the things I say? A saved soul should be affected to the point that they have respect and love for the Lord. And if you love and respect the Lord, your life will reflect that in obedience. Please don't misunderstand me, I am not putting the cart before the horse. Salvation results in obedience, albeit imperfect in this life, and not the other way around. But the problem of "easy believism" is real and must be confronted.

-Daniel

You wrote; "Our obedience is the purpose of grace -”

Amen!!
And I find much of your writing to line up with scripture and my own understanding, as such I very much appreciate your sharing:)

Not having read the book I cannot speak to its value however I very much agree with what you have just written!
Honestly have found the same to be true in not only my study but also in experience. The "allegiance” issue could also be called "devotion” which is one of if not the primary characteristic of all the heros of faith as recorded in scripture.

The direction of this thread reminds me of a recent post by Jeremy 221 where he shared an Art Katz sermon on this very subject- I found it to be fantastic:)

Here it is again in case anyone missed it ;
http://artkatzministries.org/MP3s/K-436_Exploring_True_Faith_2_of_2.mp3

Brothers,

We obey God when we believe in His Son Jesus Christ. Our obedience is the obedience of faith. Jesus Christ, and faith in Him, is the foundation on which we carefully build.
This is the work of God, said Jesus, that you believe in the One Whom He has sent.

He who has the Son has the life, he who does not have the Son does not have the life.

We continue to be saved as we continue holding fast to the Head Jesus and to our faith in Him

Blessings,

You wrote; "We continue to be saved as we continue holding fast to the Head Jesus and to our faith in Him”

AMEN!!!
Well said dear brother:)

Hello Daniel,

As much as "easy believism" can be a problem, the solution is not in redefining the word "faith" (pistis) as "allegiance" (or "faithfulness", etc.).

We have the gospel of John as our example. Sure, there were tares and fake believers ("easy believism", if you will) - but the word "believe" was still used (John 3:16, John 6:29). The distinction between the saved and unsaved was not in their degree of commitment, but between those who truly believed and those who did not (John 6:64).

In redefining "faith", Matthew Bates (the author of "Salvation by allegiance alone") is effectively redefining the doctrine of salvation. "Salvation by faith alone" and "salvation by allegiance alone" are fundamentally two different gospels. I will leave it to your prayerful discernment as to which is the true.

I will also note that Matthew Bates was educated and teaches at Catholic universities. As stated in his book's introduction, he hopes that his book "will ultimately contribute to the healing of that long-festering wound between Catholics and Protestants". These are indications to us that we have to exercise caution in adopting his views.

Addendum:

I've shared this in a previous post - this is a good article (by Eli Brayley) which discusses a similar issue, about why redefining "faith" as "faithfulness" is problematic:

http://www.timothyministry.com/2014/07/faith-or-faithfulness.html

Excerpt:

"Changing our understanding from "faith" to "faithfulness" greatly affects the meaning of the gospel. This is not a small interpretative issue. To say that we are saved through faithfulness is different than to say that we are saved through faith. The former makes it a self-focused salvation that is about our own reliability and work, while the latter is a God-focused salvation that is about looking away from ourselves and trusting in Christ's reliability and work."

We obey God when we believe in His Son Jesus Christ. Our obedience is the obedience of faith. Jesus Christ, and faith in Him, is the foundation on which we carefully build.
This is the work of God, said Jesus, that you believe in the One Whom He has sent.

Amen, SitrItUp. Indeed, it is the obedience of faith - and this is the true meaning of repentance (Greek: "metanoia" - "change of mind").

Let us cease from our works and diligently enter into His rest (Hebrews 4:10).

Yuehan, please don't think that I am saying that a Christian has to attain or maintain a state of sinless perfection to get or stay saved. I'm not. I just believe that a Christian should surrender control of their life to the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Again, not in order to get or stay saved, but now that we belong to the Lord, He deserves our respect and allegiance. And if you look at the Greek word for faith (pistis), it is translated as both faith and faithfulness. True faith will demonstrate itself with good works as the apostle James attests.

I also want to mention that I firmly believe that the Lord is patient and forbearing and sympathetic to Christian who struggle with a besetting sin. Just as parents don't disown their children when they misbehave, our Father is patient with us. If however, a Christian is not grieved at a pattern of sin and disobedience in their life, God will send discipline. It is done out of love, not rage. And if the Christian continues to be rebellious and refuses to submit, a darkness will invade them and they may be beyond hope unless perhaps they have a prodigal son type realization and repent. I don't ever think anyone is beyond hope but the reality is that deep darkness doesn't go away by itself and people deceived generally don't on their own have a 180 degree turn around.

I think Yuehan that you've been listening to Joseph Prince too much and in my opinion he presents many half-truths. He avoids any talk of sanctification (practical, not imputed) or discipleship because he is afraid that people will get the idea that we are saved by sanctification. I just think that the Lord who gave His life to save us deserves our allegiance and obedience. It is the way we show our love for Him. Jesus said, if you love Me then obey Me. It is the Christian who refuses to surrender to the Lord who I feel is deceiving himself. If you feel God is asking too much of you, are you willing to pray a prayer such as this: Lord this is hard. But I am willing to be made willing. If this is a sincere prayer, God will honor that and be patient with you.

-Daniel

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Rev 2:23 NIV I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Rev 3:1-2 NIV To the angel of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.

Hi Daniel,

Paul did not preach "salvation by allegiance alone”.

Paul preached "salvation by faith”.

Salvation includes both justification and sanctification.

Paul preached justification by faith as well as sanctification by faith.

Rom. 1:1-6 ”“
Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship !!!!!to bring about the obedience of faith!!!!! among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Rom. 1:8 ”“
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your !!!!!faith!!!!! is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.

Rom. 1:16-17 ”“
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. !!!!!For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH!!!!!."

Phil. 3:8-9 ”“-
!!!!!More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through (((((faith in Christ))))), the righteousness which comes from God (((((on the basis of faith))))), that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.!!!!!

1 Thess. 2:13 ”“
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for !!!!!salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and (((((faith))))) in the truth!!!!!.

Daniel, you wrote:
"The book about salvation by allegiance attacks the watering down of what we call "faith" as being basically just mental assent to facts concerning Jesus: his divinity, his death, resurrection, etc.
"We are saved by faith alone but true Biblical faith is stronger than mere agreeing with some doctrines. It is a trusting and adhering to a person, Jesus, who is also divine. Today so many are not trusting in Jesus so much as they are trusting in an arrangement God set up so that if you ‘believe’ in Jesus, your sins are forgiven and when you die, you go to heaven. That is a caricature of the gospel that is sold day in and day out across the land.”

Shouldn’t we get our preaching on "faith” right instead of bringing in a confusing and questionable new teaching of "salvation by allegiance alone”? Where in the Bible is it written that salvation is by allegiance alone?

Blessings

//Shouldn’t we get our preaching on "faith” right instead of bringing in a confusing and questionable new teaching of "salvation by allegiance alone”? Where in the Bible is it written that salvation is by allegiance alone?//

Who on this thread has said or suggested this?

And they entered into the covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and soul; and whoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman. Moreover, they made an oath to the LORD with a loud voice, with shouting, with trumpets, and with horns. And all Judah rejoiced concerning the oath, for they had sworn with their whole heart and had sought Him earnestly, and He let them find Him. So the LORD gave them rest on every side. 2 Chronicles 15:12-15

‘I tell you that everyone who has will be given more; but the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. And these enemies of mine who were unwilling for me to rule over them, bring them here and slay them in front of me.’” After Jesus had said this, He went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. - King Jesus

I have done my duty as a brother in the faith.

And thanks Jade @ BranchinVINE for your firm stance on the gospel.

Yes, of course we are saved by faith alone. Yet faith includes not only "believing" the truth of all the facets of the salvation message and believing it is true for yourself but also the word faith includes the aspect of fidelity or as Matthew Bates calls it, allegiance to the one you have faith in. Why are people so allergic to the idea of having allegiance or fidelity to their Savior. Please explain that to me. The book is a reaction against the watered down idea of faith being simply mental assent to a creed or doctrine.

And I have gone into detail elsewhere about how our faithfulness in this life will be less than perfect. Nobody is promoting any idea of sinless perfection here. But if a Christian thinks sanctification or discipleship is optional and they choose to just live their life any old way they want and it's all good because I'm forgiven and it's covered by grace, that attitude stinks to high heaven.

Paul Washer who is held in high esteem here talks about this extensively although he doesn't use the word allegiance to my knowledge. And plenty others besides him too. But when you read the gospels and hear Jesus speak, you hear the same thing. There is a cost to being called. You must deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow Him. This does not earn you salvation. But faithfulness or allegiance to the King is a requirement for living in His Kingdom. It's not an outrageous proposition.

BranchVine said:

Salvation includes both justification and sanctification.

Yes! And to refuse or reject sanctification (discipleship) is rejecting the salvation Christ offers you. Now do you see?

Paul preached justification by faith as well as sanctification by faith.

And I agree with that also. And sanctification (practical) obviously requires more than mental assent, it is a conviction so deep and personal that it changes one's behavior. That is what I am talking about. It's not behavior modification or willpower to a list of rules. It is reckoning yourself in Christ and living out that abiding life. So all's I'm saying is that faith is deeper and more substantial than what many are recognizing. And if you are to be in God's kingdom, is it so outrageous to recognize Christ as Lord (supreme boss) and make it important to live for him.

and that He died for all, that those who live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him who died for them and rose again. 2 Cor. 5:15

-Daniel

Have you read the article by Eli Brayley - which I've posted twice in this thread - where he discusses the difference between "salvation by faith" v.s. "salvation by faithfulness", and why they are not the same gospel?

If you need the link, here it is:
http://www.timothyministry.com/2014/07/faith-or-faithfulness.html

Yes yuehan, I did read that article. And while I understand what he is saying when he says we are not saved by our faithfulness to the Lord, I do believe that after being regenerated we are to be faithful.

You know, I think we are getting tripped up here because salvation is something that is past, present and future. We were saved at the moment of regeneration. We are being saved in this life as we allow ourselves to be sanctified. And we will be saved (glorified) at His coming. Unfortunately, we usually think of "saved" as regeneration only. That initial born again experience continues or should continue to have a ripple effect during our whole life.

Now at the moment one's eyes are opened and they see their need for the Savior and feel the Lord calling them I don't believe you have to physically do anything as a prerequisite to being saved (regenerated). But now repentance is required which is a change of mind. And true repentance doesn't just stop at acknowledging your guilt and need for forgiveness. It also includes your realization that you are being transferred to a new Kingdom and you submit to living a life of faithfulness to the King. If it is a sincere conviction, I believe you are truly saved, born again, regenerated. But if your repentance does not include both aspects, I doubt you are saved.

-Daniel

The burning issue is what "believe” actually means.

Like someone else quoted, "why do you call me "Lord” and not do what I say?”

No one is disputing that faithfulness is a rightful response for a Christian towards the Saviour who purchased him.

But faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit. This virtue - along with all the other fruits of the Spirit - is the outcome of being saved, not a condition of salvation.

To claim that we are saved by allegiance, or saved by faithfulness, as Matthew Bates' book suggests, is biblically erroneous. The most dangerous errors are the most subtle ones.

"Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right." - Charles Spurgeon

A few quick points in effort to untangle the knots being quickly tied-

Firstly the scriptures do not say "faith alone” that was Luther-
Jesus, James, Paul etc... ALL TAUGHT that obedience is essential,... not so much as a prerequisite but as a living expression of faith, else our faith "is dead”
So the response to the free gift of grace of the believer is.... FAITHFULNESS- full stop
While this response will, in most cases, be far short of perfect- the believer nonetheless "strives to please the one who enlisted him” and thereby makes good use of the grace given by acting on it in faithful obedience.

Also, it should be noted, that there is a significant difference between reformation and regeneration... just as there is a significant difference in justification and sanctification... not that they are unrelated, rather they are parts albeit connected yet different in functionality.

Additionally I’d like to inquire, since He has yet to be mentioned which is surprising to me, the role of Holy Spirit concerning our obedience???

It’s true, been established, and no one here (so far) is arguing the component of faith in regards to obedience is anything less that essential, however faith is only one component,... what about the others???
From beginning to end the scriptures are replete with examples of these other components and while the function along side and in concert with faith, are they to be neglected?

Much like the pulmonary system consists of the heart, lungs etc... while these do in fact work together for the benefit of the whole, they themselves are different in not only their constituents but also in their functionality.
Likewise are the different aspects/constituents of obedience-
Perhaps we can go a lil deeper into this subject, mining as it were the pure gold God has hidden that we may search it out:)

God has actually given us a very clear definition of "pistis" in Hebrews 11:

"Now faith (pistis) is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

No need to speculate anymore. Now that we have the answer, we can all go outside and play =)

yuehan said:

To claim that we are saved by allegiance, or saved by faithfulness, as Matthew Bates' book suggests, is biblically erroneous. The most dangerous errors are the most subtle ones.

If you actually read the book, he is not saying we are saved by our performance. And if that is what you gleaned from the title of the book, you are mistaken. But I understand how someone could mistakenly assume that is what he is saying. He is saying that true saving faith includes not just 'believing' the facts of the gospel and making it a personal thing but that it also includes a submission, and a decision to follow, obey and be faithful to the King. And I will say it again for the umpteenth time, we will not be perfect in being faithful in this life. The Lord is patient and forbearing with us if we have a contrite and humble attitude and spirit.

Perhaps it should be stated this way with clear lines of demarcation;
Obedience (as we all know) is different in the NT as from the OT-

In the new covenant, once the new birth has occurred, we WANT to obey whereas before it appeared we HAD to...
this is the crux of the matter, we (the new creations in Christ) don’t HAVE to obey, we GET to:)))

Now comes the how, and while grace and faith are certainly gifts and components they of themselves are not the whole of the story as we shall see the greatest gift ever given, the Spirit of God Himself, is the essence of all acceptable obedience.

So my question is, how (in your understanding/experience) does Holy Spirit facilitate the predestined works/obedience in the believer whom is now not only justified/reformed and sanctified/regenerated but now also is a "living stone” a "holy epistle” whose life, while a work in progress is also a simultaneous expression of God the Fathers Holy character?

yuehan said:

God has actually given us a very clear definition of "pistis" in Hebrews 11:

"Now faith (pistis) is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

This is true and the apostle James further elaborates on the meaning of faith when he writes:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Again, don't think that James is saying we gain salvation by works. He isn't. He is saying that true saving faith will demonstrate itself by producing good works. We don't put the cart before the horse. If you quote Hebrews 11 to imply that faith is simply a mental assent or agreement with some truth, it is much deeper than that. It is a conviction that produces change in behavior.

-Daniel

I just finished reading another blogpost from Eli Brayley whom yuehan loves so much and found that he actually agrees with what I have been saying. Have a look from the original found here:

http://www.timothyministry.com/2018/03/in-defense-of-doctrine-of-justification.html

Here are the relevant quotes:

And what do we do with James? It’s true that Luther and many Protestants struggled with James, but to their credit they all in the end opted to keep James, believing the contradiction to be only apparent, not real (and indeed there is no contradiction). Their struggle with James is only due to their firm conviction that the Bible teaches we are justified by faith apart from works, as indeed we just saw that it does.

and:

But Protestants do have an answer, and have had one for a long time: it is that our faith in Christ cannot but produce works, or to put it another way, what we believe inevitably affects how we behave. I don’t think anyone will disagree with that. If you claim to believe something but your alleged faith does not produce the necessary and inevitable actions that corresponds to such a faith, then you really don’t have faith. James illustrates his doctrine so we cannot misunderstand: Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac and Rahab (the harlot) hiding the spies demonstrated that they believed God. And since they believed God they were justified. Their works still didn’t justify them, their faith did. The presence of works signaled the presence of faith, and the presence of faith justified. Luther and Protestants have never seen faith as static: "Oh, it is a living, busy, active, mighty thing, this faith,” said Luther. The classic Protestant dictum is "We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone”; it produces works.

End of quotes

I never said were were saved by works or faithfulness or that works were a prerequisite to receiving salvation. Eli has beautifully summed up the truth of the matter in this post (I don't necessarily agree with everything he says on his blog, I haven't read it all). And this is what the whole saved by allegiance is saying too. I think the title (of the book) is trigger-bait and could be misunderstood if all one had was the title to go on btw. But I agree with the main thrust of it.

The reason the word allegiance was used was to emphasize how true faith will cause obedient or faithful behavior. We've heard the word faith so much and technically it is the correct word but so many people equate faith = believe = mental assent to correct doctrine which, while this is necessary, falls short if it does not also cause transformation of heart and behavior.

-Daniel

James 2:22 speaks to the heart of this discussion - "You see that the faith was WORKING TOGETHER with his works and out of the works, the faith was perfected."

This verse clearly presents faith and works as two elements working together -not as a single element. Faith and work are presented as a dynamic synergy that results in faith being brought to completion.

We should take caution in promoting the idea that "faith IS the work." Faith in Jesus Christ is the means by which we are enabled to do the works of God.

Jesus could have said to the church of Sardis - "I have not found your FAITH complete in the sight of God" - but He said it was their "WORKS" that were not complete.

How then do "works" perfect faith? Works complete the God given purpose for which we have received grace through faith. Through Ezekiel, God stated - "It is NOT FOR YOUR SAKES that I do this, but for the sake of My great name which you have profaned." The people of the first covenant caused God's name to be blasphemed among the Gentiles through their conduct. The New Covenant would have a people that would no longer profane God's name by their disobedience, but glorify and magnify His name through their grace generated obedience.

The "good works" that all believers are to be zealous for and walk in, are designed to bring honor and glory to the name of God through the holiness and righteousness demonstrated in our transformed character and conduct.
This is what is meant by "I will show Myself holy before their eyes THROUGH YOU." We are to become holy as He is holy in all of our conduct before the eyes of those with whom we live.

When men SEE our good works, they glorify our Father who is in heaven. This is God's purpose for our works. This is to the Father's glory, that we bear much fruit SHOWING OURSELVES to be His disciples. Faith is never complete until this goal is reached - the goal of the honor and glory brought to our Heavenly Father through the good works that He preordained that we should walk in.

God's stated goal gets obscured when men turn the focus solely upon our personal benefit - our own salvation. When we only focus upon what we must do to be saved - faith is all that is necessary - AMEN! But the beginning is not the end! We are saved UNTO GOOD WORKS. Believers who are not concerned about how their conduct affects the honor and glory of God have not yet realized the "goal" for receiving the gift of salvation.

I believe Jude's warning speaks to this issue. How were men turning the grace of God into licentiousness?. I believe they were simply turning the focus of the gift of grace into salvation being all about our own personal benefit. I believe this error can be done in sincerity, but it is still a grave error with serious consequences. I believe men can do this believing that they are giving all the glory to Jesus by this narrow focus.

We are to "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled." A careful look into the "root of bitterness" will underscore that it refers to a person who blesses himself in his heart thinking that he will be safe though he persist in going his own way."

This is the danger of making faith "the work". James left no doubt with the grammar that he used - faith and works were the means by which Abraham was justified. Abraham's faith was made complete by his works. TWO elements dynamically working together.

My heart is overjoyed in reading your very well worded, sober minded post:)))
On every point, and there are several crucial ones, we are in 100% agreement! As I find your position to draw upon the heart of God Himself, while refocusing our sight squarely unto Him high and lifted up:)

If I may inquire, in your understanding, are you willing to share your insights into how Holy Spirit functions regarding obedience?

In either case, thank you dear brother for your contributions:)

I agree- very well stated by mak.

Dear JFW,

I believe Romans 8:3-4 lays the foundation for the answer to "how the Holy Spirit functions regarding obedience."

"For what the law could NOT DO in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." This fulfills the promise of God for those who would experience His New Covenant: God would do this dynamic work: He would create in us a new heart and new mind, cleanse us from all our lawlessness, and put His Spirit within us so as to enable us to WALK IN ALL HIS PRECEPTS." The Holy Spirit is the LIFE of God who empowers us to be able to walk in all His precepts.

The LIFE of God (the DIVINE NATURE) imparted to us through the Holy Spirit provides all things that pertain to LIFE AND GODLINESS. His LIFE AND POWER overcome the condition of sin at work in our members. We all need deliverance from this condition and the Holy Spirit is sent to circumcise our stony heart and do away with the body of the sins of the flesh so that we will no longer live our lives under slavery to sin. The Holy Spirit in us transforms us into slaves of righteousness.

This is where Jesus in the fullness of time HAD in HIMSELF what the Law did not have - the LIFE and POWER of God Himself. "IN HIM WAS LIFE". ONLY God's own LIFE can produce righteousness in us. This is what Peter meant that by our "partaking of the DIVINE NATURE, we escape the corruption that is in the world through lusts." The Holy Spirit imparts the very LIFE AND POWER of Jesus to the believer. It is the Holy Spirit who is God's life in us - "at work both to will and to do."

The Holy Spirit performs a "circumcision of the heart, the circumcision without hands". This circumcision renders the "body of sin" powerless, freeing the believer from slavery to and obligation to live after the flesh. The Holy Spirit then begins and continues the dynamic work of the restoration of our entire soul by taking everything that God the Father fully endowed in Jesus Christ and declaring it unto us. We actually experience ALL GRACE being imparted to us by the Holy Spirit taking from what is Jesus and making it available for us. This is so amazing.

This is what really brings glory to Jesus, not simply the contrast of our wretchedness to His perfectness, but the wonderful truth that His perfect nature is actually imparted to us through the Holy Spirit living and working inside of us. For in Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwelt bodily and WE ARE MADE COMPLETE IN HIM. The Holy Spirit is the agent of this dynamic impartation. We do not just look at Jesus with awe and wonder - WE actually TOUCH HIM and HIS POWER is transferred unto us. His strength is made perfect in our weakness.

The Holy Spirit brings to the believer what the Law lacked. The Holy Spirit is the actual LIFE AND POWER of Jesus Himself that the Law did not have. The disciples and we with them receive this POWER when the Holy Spirit comes upon us. This power of the very life of Jesus is what enables us to live as disciples. Those who walk by the Spirit do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Those who are led by the Spirit, they are the sons of God.

We are able to obey because the Holy Spirit, God's very Life, empowers us to obey.

Mak: The only thing I would add "I wish I would have said that".

Solid, biblical truth.

This is what I call preaching the gospel to the believer.
This is the good news for the believer...not just that I am forgiven of sin, but I now overcome it. Not just that I am made alive in Christ, but I now live out that life following the example of Christ.

Well said brother, this is the true blessing of good discussion and edifying one another.

Beautiful-AMEN!!!

This is what I had hoped for when starting this thread, wether through discussion or dissemination, and I am truly grateful for your response as it is (again) very well worded and is a blessing to read and meditate on:)

Holy Spirit’s role is truly the essence of all our life as new covenant people and you have drawn out the majesty as well as mystery in a very accessible way and for that I thank you 🙏🏻

Brothers: it is so important to preach the gospel! Yet, preaching the gospel to the believer is different than preaching it to the unbeliever.

When I preach the gospel to the unbeliever it is in the form of an 'offer', that the sinful man may in fact become holy, a godless man may in fact become indwelt by God, a wicked man may in fact follow Christ in word and deed.

But a believer, the gospel takes on a different form.
The gospel to the believer moves from offer to become a child of God to a call to obedience as a child of God.
I moved from offer to receive justification, I now am called live out full acceptance and sonship.
I was sanctified by the indwelling Spirit in the day of my redemption; I now live out my sanctification of the Spirit with words and deeds spoken through me by the Spirit and done through me by the power of the Spirit.
I am a partaker of the divine nature...oh so true, and because I am a partaker, by that same Spirit I add to my faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge temperance...
I am able to add because as a son I am now bearing the image of God in Spirit.

I rejoice in what God has done; obedience, not by way of conformity to human opinion, nor by uniformity where I am accepted because of creedal and traditional resemblance. I am being conformed to Christ, by Christ's Spirit for Christ's glory. In the midst of it all, I am loved and love in return, I am made near to God so I draw my brothers and sister near to me...I see in part that God in me calls to and loves himself dwelling in all others.

My gospel obedience is never that I might be justified, but being justified I show God's acceptance and love toward me. My gospel obedience is never that I might become sanctified, but that being sanctified by the Spirit of God, I love what God loves, I desire what God desires, I esteem what God esteems...and I hate what God hates and refuse what God refuses. I am his son, I am the life of Christ in this world demonstrated uniquely through my personality, my abilities and giftings. How am I the life of Christ? I am whatever life indwells me, if it is only a soulish human animal, that is the only life I can demonstrate. If it is Christ dwelling in me, it is the life of Christ that must be demonstrated.

All our believing lives are a mixture of human/soulish demonstration and Christ-like life, I do not return to dead works seeking to undermine the work of Christ by turning what is supposed to be a demonstration of God's life in me, to a confusing attempt in gaining a righteousness or a justification with God that is never given by works.

It is well worth considering, that those who claim a gospel that reconciled them to Christ but are not seeking to live out the new creation they supposedly become. These are in error. A gospel truly received is a gospel that transforms the recipient.

John 15:4-5 ”“
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

John 14:20 ”“
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
(Comment: "In that day” i.e. In that day when the Holy Spirit comes to indwell a believer.)

1 Cor. 12:3 ”“
…… no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Gal. 3:14 ”“
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excerpts from "Of Justification by Faith and Works” by William Law (Date written: 1760):

…… the whole of our redemption consists in our being made one with Christ, essentially born of him, that having his whole redeeming nature come to life in us, we may be in him, as he is in God, one spirit, one life to all eternity. "God was in Christ Jesus," saith Paul, "reconciling the world to himself." But Christ was the reconciler between God and man, only and solely by that which he was, did, suffered, and obtained by and through his whole process. This is his mediation-work. Are you in this process, you are in the arms of your mediator; his mediation-work is like a new creation within you, and what God saw in his beloved Son, that he sees in you; and you must belong to God, as he does, because his nature, life, and Spirit, are in you.

Without Christ, we are without God; but who is without Christ, is told you in the following words, "Unless a man deny himself, take up his cross," &c., "and follow me, he cannot be my disciple." This is the one term of union with Christ.

"Without me," saith Christ, "ye can do nothing," that is, all is in vain without my process; for Christ is that, which his process is. St. Paul saith, "No one can call Jesus Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." In these two short texts, you have the whole nature and substance of Christian redemption, namely, that it all consists in the process of Christ, and the coming of the Holy Ghost.

Christ's process in the flesh, is the only way of dying to all that fleshly evil, that Adam brought to life in us; Christ came in the Spirit, is the one only quickening of that divine life, to which Adam died. Trust to anything else, seek to anything else, but this process of Christ, and this power of the Holy Ghost, and then all your leaning upon the gospel, will be no better than leaning upon a broken reed. These two fundamental truths plainly show, why the first preaching of the gospel began, and must ever go on, saying nothing but what is implied in these words, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand." "Repent," shows the necessity of making Christ's process the one way to the kingdom of God; for repentance-works are in his process, and nowhere else. "For the kingdom of God is at hand," shows that Christ's coming in the Spirit, is the one thing sought for by his process; for the kingdom of God come amongst men, is nothing else but Christ come in the power of the Spirit; and where this power is not come in the likeness of a kingdom, wherever plenty there may be of preachers, the kingdom of God is yet afar off.

The Law ended with Christ come in the flesh; his process was the fulfilling of all its types, figures, and sacrifices.

The coming of Christ in the Spirit, is just the same one only fulfilling of all the gospel- dispensation. And as the Law would have been all in vain, without Christ's coming in the flesh; so would the gospel also, without Christ's coming in the Spirit. And the Jew with his Old Testament, rejecting Christ come in the flesh, is just as true to the Law, as the Christian is to the gospel, who does not own Christ as come in the Spirit, to be the one only fulfilling of all its doctrines. For as all the types, figures, and sacrifices of the Law, were in themselves but empty shadows, without Christ being the life of them, so all things written in the gospel, are but dead letters, till Christ coming in the Spirit quickens a new creature, to be the reader, the rememberer, and doer of them. Therefore, where the Holy Spirit is not sought after, trusted to, and rested in, as the end, the substance, and living power of the whole gospel, it is no marvel, that Christians, high or low, learned or unlearned, Churchman or dissenter, should have no more of gospel-virtues, than the Jews have of patriarchal holiness; or that the same lusts, vices, and worldly craft, which prosper among apostate Jews, should break forth with as much strength in a fallen Christendom.

See here then your work, ye awakened preachers, if God has sent you forth, you can have no other errand but that, on which Christ sent his apostles. Do you preach anything but the process of Christ, as the way to the kingdom of God, or call men to any power of walking in it, but that of the Holy Spirit, you are strangers to, or deserters from the truth, as it is in Jesus, for neither Christ, nor his apostles, ever taught anything else but this. The old man must die, or the new man can never be made alive in Christ. But nothing brings death upon the old man, but that one self-denying process of Christ; nothing gives life to the new man, but the one Spirit of Christ born in it. This is the gospel-language from the beginning to the end.

With this language in your mouths, the whole gospel is with you, you may cry aloud and spare not; be as zealous here as you will or can; go out into the streets and lanes, the highways and hedges; compel hypocrites, sensualists, worldlings, and hardened sinners to tremble at their ways, to dread everything that is contrary to Christ's salvation- process; preach certain damnation to every sinful lust of the flesh, and no possible power to be delivered from it, but by Christ coming in the Spirit, to set up his own kingdom of God within you……

@Marvin

What you have spoken of here is indeed an integral aspect of the gospel and a sign of maturity, dividing the word rightly-
This very point you make is the point of so much stumbling, however as you’ve demonstrated, doesn’t have to be and in fact should be a blessing-
It’s like a child adopted into a new family,... firstly the child needs to know they are loved and accepted as they are and that there is not only an invitation to join but also a strong desire that they will. Only after the offer is accepted and the child experiences the love and value of a new family can the child be exposed to discipline whereby the family is not only maintained but grown. This is a very delicate and easy to err in undertaking. One where my personal shortcomings have been exposed on many occasions and while the Lord is merciful and full of grace, my failures and the scars they leave are a reminder of just how much I need Holy Spirit as a constant and not just as a reference.
The deeper I go with the Lord the more I need Him and that’s never more apparent to me than when my failing of His grace injures another or even misrepresents Him, His mercy and patience. Indeed there is a mixture and tho it may be well intended, it nonetheless falls short of the calling.
It’s understandable that this is part of the breaking/grinding down process, yet to see someone with whom we’ve been entrusted, someone we love be spiritually injured by our carelessness or impatience is, if not for His grace, unbearable.
What a messy business it is, for Him to conform us unto the image of His son,... how even when we are willing it is no small thing. Yet He remains faithful, patient, merciful with us even and especially when we fall so short so as to be ashamed, yet He is not ashamed to call us His children.

I do very much appreciate what you have shared regarding this point and it is more helpful to me than you know:)
Thank you dear brother ~

Brother Fletcher:

There's nothing you've said about yourself that is not equally true of me, God have mercy on us both, God give us grace to lay aside every weight and sin that so easily besets us and run the race...Jesus he loves us with an everlasting love, therefore conformity to his image must be a joy to him, how I have often thought "Is there any thing in my heart Lord that is not utterly ruined?"
The gospel to myself...The Spirit of God in me is not ruined he has indwelt me to purge me of what I hate and God hates. My astonishment at my own weakness is only mine, Jesus knew all along what he purchased and intends to conform to his likeness. So too with you my brother.