Justification by faith from first to last

When was Abraham’s faith reckoned to him as righteousness? Those who know the scriptures are aware that there are several different references to God reckoning his faith as righteousness?

This is critical for our understanding justification by faith because Paul uses the life of Abraham as the primary example of God reckoning a man’s faith to him as righteousness.

So when was Abraham justified? In Genesis 15, he heard God’s promise, looked to the heavens and believed and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

In Romans 4 we read -"he did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrennessb of Sarah’s womb. 20No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness.” This was much later than Genesis 15. Here Abraham’s faith is reckoned to him as righteousness after a long endurance, finally coming to the full assurance of faith.

We also read in James that Abraham was justified for what he did when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar in obedience to God. James wrote - "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”””and he was called a friend of God. 24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

So we have at least three different times recorded when Abraham’s faith was reckoned to him as righteousness. Faith is the common denominator, but the times and circumstances are unique.

Have we pondered why? Is there significance that Abraham’s justification is not a "singular” event? He is the perfect example of the righteousness of God being revealed - "from faith to faith”. He believed and was justified. He continued to believe and his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness. And near the end of his days, he obeyed and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

He is our father in the faith, our example of "by grace through faith.”

I have been feasting on this meditation and I thought I would invite you to join me and share your thoughts and insights.

Dear Alan,

Thank you for this, which is an insightful illustration of Abraham's ongoing and lifetime Faith. Seems to illustrate that faith and belief has to be present and continuous reality if we want our righteousness with God to be present and continuous, which is what I understand the language of the NT teaches.

It seems funny how 'righteousness by faith' morphed in later times into 'you exercised faith once and now you are declared righteous for all time'!

"Faith justifies our souls, good works justify our faith."

Thomas Adam

Just because something is newly revealed and brought to greater clarity does not mean it did not already exist before. It just may not have been fully revealed as for example the church was revealed clearly for the first time in the New Testament. But does that mean it did not exist before? Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. That is the exact same thing that happens when one becomes a believer and becomes part of the true born again believing church. And Abraham continued in faith the exact same way New Testament believers are enjoined to do. So my question is does Abraham being accounted righteous mean he was part of the believing church even back then? Did the church exist back then only later to be brought to clear light in the days of Christ and the apostles. Many people thoroughly and staunchly believe the church began at Pentecost. Perhaps the experience of Abraham shows us different. What do you think? That's a sincere question from me regarding this issue that still vexed me a bit. It's natural to assume the church began at Pentecost but Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. How could the Holy Spirit not have been involved? Still scratching my head a bit.

"Did the church exist back then only later to be brought to clear light in the days of Christ and the apostles."

Yes.

Throughout the history of humanity there's been the Cains and the Abels, Jacobs and Esaus Judas' and Peters. One's father is the devil, the other's is God. There are children of the devil and there are children of God.

There's never been a time when God was without a people. You may call them by whatever name you like, but they have always been His people by possession.

Acts 7:35-38

This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush. He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.

Note: '...the church in the wilderness...'

Thanks Dave, you wrote - "...Abraham's ongoing and lifetime Faith. Seems to illustrate that faith and belief has to be present and continuous reality if we want our righteousness with God to be present and continuous, which is what I understand the language of the NT teaches." end quote

This is also the treasure I have seen in Paul's writing. Abraham is the perfect example of how God credits His righteousness to men as a gift "by grace through faith."

From beginning to end, from faith to faith, righteousness is credited to men as a gift of grace. There is a beginning - "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." By grace through faith we were justified from sin and grafted into the root - Jesus Christ.

And like Abraham, our journey continues from faith to faith - "As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving." Just as we received the Spirit initially by the "hearing of faith", God continues to supply the Spirit and work His power among us through the hearing of faith." We cooperate with the Spirit in putting off the old man which is being corrupted according to deceitful lusts and we put on the new man created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. With the help of the Holy Spirit, we mortify the practices of the body as we continue to receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. Through the grace our Lord makes to abound to us, we begin to reign in life through the life of our Lord being imparted to us "by grace through faith." We die to sin and begin to live unto righteousness - by grace through faith.

We continue in the faith by which we gained entrance into the grace wherein we stand. We don't boast over fallen men, because we remember what happened to the natural branches who were broken off because of their unbelief, and we realize that we are standing by faith. We consider both the kindness and severity of God, and by grace through faith we continue in His kindness so as not to be cut off. We also count God's longsuffering to be salvation for those branches who were broken off, because we know that if they do not persist in unbelief, they can be grafted in again.
God's grace to us through faith causes us to glorify our Father for His indescribable mercies.

Thus not only were we saved by grace through faith, but we are continuing to be saved from sin and from the coming wrath by His grace through faith. Now as those who partake of the divine nature, and compelled by such exceeding great and precious promises, we give all diligence to add to our faith virtue, knowledge, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness and love. By faith we do not want to forget that we have been cleansed of our past sins and we have no desire to become near sighted and blind. We cling to the promise by faith that if these things are in us and abound, they will keep us from being ineffective and unproductive in our knowledge of God. By faith we seek to make our calling and election sure.

This is the assurance that Paul the apostle of grace enjoyed even as he "beat his body and made it his slave, lest after having preached to others, he would become rejected." He knew His Lord was able to keep that he had committed unto Him. By grace through faith, Paul knew that he had fought the good fight, he had finished his course, he had kept the faith. By grace through faith, he was fully convinced that the Lord, the righteous judge was going to award unto him the crown of righteousness. He knew that by that same grace through faith he was first shown on the Damascus road, by that same grace through faith he had overcome.

This same grace through faith will be shown to all who have loved the appearing of our Lord. We too are to become strong in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and keep ourselves in the love of God as we abide by faith. We are to continue looking to Jesus to make ALL His grace to abound to us. It is always through His fullness we receive grace for even more grace.

Like Abraham we will have stumbled into our Ishmaels and Abimelechs. But even in this stumbling, the grace of our Lord Jesus continues to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness as we walk in the light in fellowship with Him.

I see in Abraham, the friend of God, that by faith he was being justified throughout his journey with God. By faith and endurance he obtained the promise of God, the promise he began to receive by grace through faith and against all hope in hope believed unto the full assurance that God had power to do what He had promised - and for this his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness. He is truly the father of us all.

Abraham's example shows me that Paul was not focusing his thoughts upon "when" Abraham was justified, but the "WAY" he was justified - by grace through faith unto faith.

Abrahams faith could do nothing except believing the chair will hold him when he sits on it.

Abrahams faith was completed by God's works and Abrahams works shown forth that completing work of God unto Abrahams Faith.

Ephesians 2:1-10 You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience; among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus; for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

Whose Grace, Whose Faith, Whose works wrought in us?

It was God not Abraham that that counted the righteous of God in Abraham because it was God's righteousness.

Now we know the mystery of righteousness, for Christ has been made our righteousness which is now birthed in us by the Plan of God the Father through God the Son we are counted righteous, not only counted but made righteous by the Christ in us.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I will glory in Gods Faith by the Faith of Jesus Christ in me and in Abraham not of him but of God by His completing Faith wrought in Abraham by Gods works as in our works by the Christ in us the Hope of Glory.

Who is made unto us righteousness? The process of God never changing, but completed on the Cross by the Son Jesus Christ who is now the Head of the Church the Body of Christ.
Amen and Amen: This mystery now revealed to the Church.
Of which Paul speaks loud and clear.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Whose works?
In Christ: Phillip

Abraham's example shows me that Paul was not focusing his thoughts upon "when" Abraham was justified, but the "WAY" he was justified - by grace through faith unto faith.

Excellent!

Paul shows us clearly in Romans 4 that the "way" is by promise, faith and grace which always go together. You cannot take the promise away without faith and grace also disappearing. Over against these stand law, works (that is, transgressions) and wrath. These also always go together.

Either you have the promise with faith and grace, or you have the law with transgressions and wrath. The one excludes the other. If you come with the law, you exclude the promise, and so meet not grace but wrath, for under the law faith is made void and the promise is made of no effect.

Paul is really saying that God does not act where there is a human possibility of accomplishing a given objective, but becomes active when all such possibility has ceased to be. Humanly speaking there are no grounds for hope, since the promise is impossible to man, but in truth this is where hope begins for the man of faith who is looking away to the God of the impossible. This is the "way" of life in Christ.

In Christ,

"Whose faith is it” is easily answered by answering the following question - Whose unbelief is it?

If men are held accountable for their unbelief, on what basis is their unbelief sinful and liable to judgment? If it is God’s faith, not men’s - whose
"unbelief” is it?

o 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Ro 3:3
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Ro 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Unbelief came by rebellion not faith thereof. Therefore the question of the Faith of God given to the believer unto wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption, this Faith if of God not of man but of and in and through Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:22-24 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Who's Faith given?

Rebellion has separated me from the ability to attain the Faith that saves, I am accounted for unbelief through rebellion and am now of my father the devil. Saving Faith from Jesus Christ by the Father has now given me the Faith of Jesus Christ given to them that believe.

Our faith unto Jesus Christ and salvation is a gift, a fruit of the Spirit. Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

How do I now live? Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I could go on and on, but my Holy Faith which is given me by God to believe that Jesus Christ is My God and Savior and the Father has made me a son by the Son that is in me and a fellow heir with Jesus Christ, my faith given by the Holy Spirit is my all and in all, Jesus Christ my God, Brother and Savior. Amen

In Christ: Phillip

When Abraham is declared righteous by faith, it is called 'his' (Abraham's) faith, or "Abraham believed".

Also there are many accounts of Jesus saying, "your faith has made you well".

I don't think you can build a case for 'faith' not belonging to the individual. I agree that faith has an origin, which is God, but He is also the object of our faith. Faith comes from hearing the word of God, but becomes our faith when we act on it.

We can over complicate 'faith'. I think put simply, faith is to trust and obey who God is and what He says.

Ron Bailey, who used to frequent these forums, had a wonderful definition of faith that he liked to use, I believe that it went something like this;

Faith is right response to revelation.

In Christ,

I agree that we all receive Faith from God.

Heb 12:2- looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith,

It is not that I who was raised as an unbeliever, suddenly started believing in Jesus by my own work. No Jesus found me and put his faith in me. But Jesus also is the perfecter of my faith. Which means that my faith is not perfect yet, it has to be made strong and perfect.

In acts we read about Stephen as,
Acts 6-8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

So there is fullness of faith that was found in Stephen. There were also times when Jesus rebuked the disciples for their little faith. So there is a measure for faith.

Romans 12:6 - If someone’s gift is prophecy, let him use it in proportion to his faith.

I believe God wants us to increase in faith by putting our faith in practice when our faith is tested.

So Abraham had faith and he also increased in faith by obeying God when his faith was put to test. I believe this is what meant by the scripture from faith to faith we grow.

Romans 1:17- For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Human faith is not the gift of God.
Human faith is not capable of doing what God has required of faith "obtaining Christ".
Human faith is still a slave to sin, it must be a slave because when God regenerates a man by the Spirit of God he 'then' can see the kingdom of God, where it is revealed to him. If you have only human faith Jesus wont commit himself to you. See Jn 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Where do we see a picture of men testifying of Jesus but were not born of God and had not the gift of faith to see the kingdom or know the truth about Jesus?
John 3 in his dealings with Nicodemus.

Nicodemus had human faith, he could testify of Jesus miracles and could see the power of God and could see there was something powerful and wonderful about Jesus...but as we read about Nicodemus we read what it was where Jesus "didn't commit himself unto them".
Jesus didn't commit himself unto Nicodemus, nor to the rich young ruler, nor to those who need to bury their dead or cannot abide living as Jesus in an ordinary way.
The gospels are replete with parables and examples of people who want Jesus but don't want to follow him according to his command.
Why was it that Jesus didn't commit himself to them?
Because to be a true disciple you must be 'given' Jesus by the Father. You don't just take Jesus when you want, if you want and however you want.
It is the working of God for true conversion and biblical regeneration by the Spirit of God.

Human faith gives place to human repentance and human justification and human sanctification and in the end doom. For everyone that thinks they have the faith on their own, the repentance God requires on their own must needs fail and God designs them to fail.

Be pleased with God's gift of faith because the opposing 'unbelief' is ours by reason of our sinful hearts and alienation from God...we are dead in sins and unbelief is the fruit of it. We own unbelief intrinsically, but God given faith we do not own or receive at birth, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

If you put your trust in being born of God by human ability to believe, then you have no right to become the sons of God. John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The 'right to become a son of God' is given because God himself birthed him of his own will, not ours.

Sree and Marvin

Words of truth, praise God and Amen.

Marvin can you help me reconcile John 1:12 and 2:23&24?

Thank you for the fresh air of truth.

In Christ: Phillip

I am truly trying to understand what you are attempting to explain, but the passage you quoted states that Jesus gave the authority to become sons of God to those who had already received him. He did not give them the ability to receive him, he gave authority to those who had received him.

I know that it is BY GRACE -through faith, so I can see the reason to lay the stress upon God’s grace enabling men to believe. Jesus IS the grace of God and the words He spoke and the signs He did "enabled” many to believe - and this without having the Holy Spirit, for the Spirit was not yet given since Jesus was not yet glorified. Yet many "believed” in Him because of hearing and seeing Him.

Many others did not believe. Are you saying that those who did not believe after hearing and seeing Jesus were not able to believe because God did not give them faith? All the people encountered the grace of God when they encountered Jesus. He is the grace of God. He came to His own and His own received Him not, but as many as received Him TO THEM HE GAVE. The scripture does not say, He gave to them and they received Him.

I believe men have a God given capacity to hear and believe. Faith comes by the thing heard - the message itself is spirit and life. It is not too difficult, the word is near you.

Unbelief is "evil” because it is refusal to believe. The Greek word for disobedience is a form of "pietho” the verb for to persuade. The idea of this word is refusing to be persuaded.

I have appreciated the discussion as it has challenged me to search the scriptures to consider this matter again.

If you are saying no one can believe unless God gives that person the ability to believe, then please explain whether or not you believe that God offers the gift of faith to ALL MEN.

Thanks

Hi Mak: thanks for responding.

I am saying God is the author of or faith, we are not our own authors. Human faith does not accept the word of God for transformation because human faith is still linked in-separably to the human will.

It's important to understand who is working in us before we come to Christ. Since it is God who gives faith Eph 2, and repentance Rom 2, God gives the Spirit Eph 1 he does all of this because he has an elect that he has chosen for himself.
Since man cannot 'will himself' born of God
John 1:12, he is at the mercy of God who will bring into Christ all that he has chosen.
When we discuss topics like this and omit the Sovereign electing grace of God, we are saying "God's choosing is because we chose first"; this is an error, God is the author of our faith, God is the grace giver on account of his own plan and purposes. Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Since our spiritual blessings originated in heaven, Paul explains that it was in Christ before the foundation of the world his choosing us to salvation brings to us all spiritual blessings, it brings to us our conversion, regeneration, reconciliation, righteousness, justification and sanctification...and finally our glorification.
What God has provided was provided to us long before we made any decisions to believe, tears of repentance or confessions of sin and faith in the resurrection.
We are the children he chose, the people he elected, the lost sinners that he determined to reveal grace and kindness to us through Jesus Christ.

Our salvation is not hinged upon human faith, but upon God's divine will to bring his word to us, give us faith, give us repentance and reveal Christ to us. Our love is what his grace and kindness produces, what we are is not the product of human anything. God left the cults, liars, false teachers and prophets to make for themselves disciples that will follow them, serve them and abide by their word. Those kind need no divine agency, they serve with human faith, human strength and human ability.
Christianity functions on God's power to transform rebels into willing servants and sons. Christianity regenerates the heart, it does not simply add new but relaxed rules to the same old game.

Unbelief for the sinner is intrinsic because he is dead in sins and trespasses, he is alienated in his mind by wicked works. His faith, is nothing more than a moral improvement, a turning over of a new leaf. He cannot come to Christ anymore than Nicodemus could come to Jesus...because at the heart of Nicodemus faith was unbelief.

Jesus goes to great lengths to explain that salvation is the gift of God, it is not the product of human 'willing to believe'.

When people encountered Jesus, they encountered both man and God, they encountered a man who was fully submitted and consecrated to do the will of God at all costs.
People didn't encounter grace when they met Jesus, they encountered God's chosen man. It is from God's chosen man that Jesus would extend grace, kindness, healing and deliverance. In a philosophical way, you can say Jesus is the personification of grace, but you can say he is equally the personification of the law as well.

Our salvation from beginning to end is all of grace. Our faith, our righteousness and sanctification are all of grace. This grace didn't activate upon the act of human faith, it was given purely out of God's own goodness that he will bestow on whom ever he will. rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Israels salvation and the gentiles grafting are all due to God's own appointing.

Are we making the gospel call nullified because God will not give faith to all? We are not, because we are not charged with saving anyone, we are charged with declaring the saving grace of God as it appears in Jesus Christ.
It would not matter if only 8 people were saved, we take note from Noah, he was faithful and God saved all that he would save.

I recognize many do not like a God that choses them before they chose him, but if you are going to believe scripture you must submit yourself to God's sovereign will and purpose.

We are very fond in our culture to magnify the will of man and exalt it above all that call itself God. God has no sympathy for our cultural proclivities that have intermixed in our doctrines.
Our evangelism is all about declaring the gospel of Jesus Christ and we do so because God has a chosen people and because God has determined to bring them to Christ and show his lovingkindness to them. This is the basis for evangelism. It is God's calling through out the whole world and those whom he has chosen will hear and they will receive power, they will believe, they will repent and they will glorify God in their lives.

I have no faith in the faith of man, I have faith that God will give faith upon entry of his powerful word and bring a transformation...a conversion because God worked in that heart.

I hope this clarifies my position.

Thanks for the thoughtful questions.

Hi Marvin,

John 1:29 ”“ The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

1 John 2:-2 -- and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

John 3:16-17 -- For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Salvation is for the WHOLE WORLD and NOT the chosen few.

Hi Jade:

You will encounter many difficult problems believing Jesus came to save the 'whole world'.
First of all there has always been an elect people, there has always been a chosen few.
You know yourself that "few are chosen" I didn't say that, Jesus did. So when Jesus says that, people who believe after your manner, they must reverse the text to mean
"few have chosen him". Many are called and the gospel is to be declared through out the world, but as I said earlier, God does the choosing, he does the electing.

The salvation we have all received is due to God's divine will and purpose. It was not us who determined all spiritual blessing would be granted us in Jesus before the foundations of the world.

From the beginning, God has chosen his own.
I get it that people do not like the idea that God didn't chose some folks.
But if you think even for just a few minutes about the reality of this world, multitudes' of millions and millions have died not hearing the gospel. Countless multitudes have only had some smidgen of knowledge about Jesus and died in their sins. Was God lacking power to send them a missionary? Was God negligent to save the heathen? Was God uncaring to leave whole tribes and nations to rot from paganism and sin without any chance of hearing the good news of redemption?
Where was the Church 100 years ago? Where was it 400 years ago, Where was it a 1000 years ago? God does with his people as he pleases and sends whom he will send and orchestrates the salvation of those whom Christ died to redeem.
If God is truly sovereign and truly almighty and truly loving and all wise, we have no other reason for their lostness in that God had not chosen them to salvation.
Jesus will lose nothing, he will receive all that the Father will give him.
You can blame the Church, you can blame God, you can disbelieve there is any chosen or any elect, those are just vague unknown bible terms for 'our choosing God'. But that answers nothing, it misrepresents God and in the end it says "Well God you sure brought forth a lot of creation that you didn't want to keep eternally".

After you say that, let the countless billions who lived in paganism before Christ and died outside any faith or knowledge of God and you will get a picture that many do not want to see...A God who has chosen a people for himself, a gospel that was designed to save that people, a heaven made for that people, a grace given to that people.

It's not a man-made salvation we have obtained, it's not a man-contrived 'elect' that becomes so because I joined the Christian group.

Truth is, God has saved a people for himself and it may seem unfitting that God would not save all, but we have 6000 years of history where God has not saved all and has never in all those years proven an intent to save all.

One cannot argue that 'mans will' got in the way. But it didn't stop him from saving you! Are we better than other sinners before us? Did we have something another sinner didn't have?

The scriptures that teach God's choosing and election are too numerous, to expansive and the scriptures do not hide any of it. Unfortunately the doctrine has been neglected, God's will, purpose, plans, choosing, electing are relegated to some hateful Calvinist invention, therefore it is dismissed as if it is from some cult.
Because of this, many will never confront the difficult problem that I am saved and chosen of God and yet others are not...and it put fear in me and no doubt others, that God did something so great for me and would not do it for someone else. What kind of God is this?

At that point, I must learn and accept God is more fearful than I previously imagined, he makes decisions not based on anything I can figure out, he calls men to judgment whom he birthed into the world for a purpose only for this temporal world and not for the eternal glorious world to come.

This is the God I meet in scripture.

Marvin,

So how do you explain away the scriptures I quoted?

And how do you explain away this:

1 Tim. 2:3-4 (Young’s Literal Translation) -- …… God our Saviour, who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

Hi Jade: I am seeking to explain my point of view and hopefully my interpretation of scripture is consistent with the sum of scripture.

I hope you do not feel I am "explaining away" the texts you quoted. It's important in any study to let all scripture stand, I don't quote some obscure passage on election and attempt to 'check' some passage that seems to negate it.
This is called scripture nullifying...I don't want to do that with you or anyone. Scripture is not pitted against scripture, its usually a long held belief...tied to a dozen other beliefs that once shown errant, we become fretful we have believed everything wrongly.

I am simply introducing an extended view of Justification, righteousness and sanctification. That God has in Christ determined what he would make us in order to display his glory and grace in ages to come.

Insofar as the 1Tim2:3-4 text, the answer is simple ( at least for me) That God has willed all kinds of men ( not every single man or woman) because we have scripture examples of those whom God did nothing to circumvent their fateful demise. God gave them over to destruction, God didn't save the brute-beast men who were to be taken and destroyed, nor is he to be reprimanded or accused of injustice because he can make a vessel unto honor or one unto dishonor.
Judas was with Jesus, yet he is the son of perdition and Jesus WOE was directed at Judas. Jesus knew who would betray him.

In the scriptures, one has to reconcile an important aspect of God's actions; "His willing" is it merely passive like ours, where we hope but cannot accomplish? God has no such impotency.

More directly, John 3:16 for God so loved the world.
Is this to mean every single man and woman born? If it is, how then can they be saved who have no preacher? Rom 10, Where were the preachers of good news during the last 2000 years? In some places there were many, in others, there were none.
My point is, I do not interpret world to mean "every man woman", I interpret it to mean-in context Jesus is telling Nicodemus that God doesn't have love for Israel alone but for the Gentiles too. That Christ lifted up will draw Gentiles and Jews into one great body of believers.
Of the Elect Jews there will be grace and salvation given, of the Elect Gentiles the same.

So the gospel message is declared world wide, grace, forgiveness of sins and mercies are declared world wide without exception...because God has willed all kinds of men be saved. From each tribe, tongue and nation will come forth God's chosen, they believed, they were made sons of God and they will be glorified in the end.

It's important to note, Gentile salvation was a very new thing! Paul preaching to the pagans was a brand new exercise in grace and mercy from God. Therefore it would be right to say succinctly "God wills all men to be saved".

When we preach the gospel to the lost we do not know who is God's elect and who is not, but it's not given to us to know the secret things of God, it is given to us to declare the explicit message of the gospel to all men. So we preach the gospel to every man and we live our lives as a witness to every man, but we do so not because every man is equally to be a recipient of grace, but because in following Jesus as our example he was good to the just and the unjust.
We were not called to save people, we were commission to preach the gospel and make disciples wherever people respond in faith to the message of God.

So, these texts do not impinge on the doctrine of election, nor do they impinge upon the free offer of mercy and grace.

If I require the "world" in John 3:16 to mean every man or woman born, then those who died as pagans long before Christ have a legitimate complaint against God. If I require "world" to include all men and women ever born, I am also saying God has elected everyone to salvation. But there is no scripture that would bear that out, but plenty that would negate it.

We who are born of God are truly given something so great and so outstanding it defies explanation and why God didn't chose others cannot be answered by scripture because scripture does not reveal the secret counsels of God before the foundation of the world. What we know of God's heavenly counsels are those revealed by the apostles and prophets and these do not direct us to the knowledge of God's secret purpose and plans for each individual born on the earth.

No offense please, but I am having a hard time understanding.
But I believe Ron said it right when he quoted,
‘Faith is right responce to revelation ‘

I really believe that, truly sum’s up Abraham’s faith,..
... God spoke / revealed His Word to Abraham,.. He believed God,
he obeyed God. (Abrahamic Faith)

For your consideration too,..
When we were yet in our fleshly nature in God’ timing,
He calls to us by His Grace,... by The Word of God,..
He sends His Grace,... which is Spirit Word: Seed into our hearts,
(His Devine influence upon the heart) (Grace)
...to draw us to God,... (remember how He was drawing
at the first)

The Word says that is not His will that any man shall perish,
... ....but we know that some will not receive Him.... will reject Him.
It is really a ‘will’ thing. Our ‘will’ or His ‘will’ .

In this kingdom , there is a King to rule, Be Lord over us ,but do we say,
‘We will not have this man to reign over me? ‘

The Lord, He is God, The Lord, He is God,... and God is The Spirit / Word,..
........
.........
........submission to God.

Not mine,... but His,
””””””””””””
elizabeth

Marvin, so that I can understand where you are coming from, I'd like to ask you how you interpret the verse,"God wills all men to be saved". Do you understand that verse to mean:

1)Gods will is for each and every person to be saved

or

2)Gods will is for all different sorts of people to be saved

In other words, does all mean all or do we need to add a twist so somebody's systematic theological toes don't get stepped on?

-Daniel

Hi Marvin,

(1)

John 3:16

You say: "I do not interpret world to mean ‘every man woman’".

Strong’s NT 2889 kosmos: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

Benson Commentary: God, says he, so loved the world, that is, all men under heaven……

Barnes Notes on the Bible: The world - All mankind. It does not mean any particular part of the world, but man as man - the race that had rebelled and that deserved to die.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges: loved the world] The whole human race……

Bengel’s Gnomen: the world) [all] the men under heaven……

Pulpit Commentary: For God so loved the world. The Divine love to the whole of humanity in its condition of supreme need

(2)

1 Tim. 2:3-4

You say: "God has willed all kinds of men be saved.”

Marvin, you have added words to scripture. 1 Tim. 2:3-4 says God wills "all men” to be saved. It does NOT say God wills "all kinds of men”.

(3)

You wrote:
"If I require the ‘world’ in John 3:16 to mean every man or woman born, then those who died as pagans long before Christ have a legitimate complaint against God. If I require ‘world’ to include all men and women ever born, I am also saying God has elected everyone to salvation.”

These are separate issues.

The issue here is:
Is Christ’s salvation for ALL MEN or is it NOT for all men? I.e. Are some men predestined by God to go to heaven and others are predestined to go to hell??

(4)

You say:
"If God is truly sovereign and truly almighty and truly loving and all wise, we have no other reason for their lostness in that God had not chosen them to salvation.”

I ask:
Is it God’s doing that many have not believed and therefore are not saved?

Listen!

Mark 4:3-8 --
Listen to this! Behold, the sower went out to sow; as he was sowing, some seed fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up. Other seed fell on the rocky ground where it did not have much soil; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of soil. And after the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. Other seeds fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.”

Mark 4:13-20 ”“
And He said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones on whom seed was sown among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word, but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.”

It is Satan, flesh and the world that are the robbers and the thieves of man's salvation and the enemies of faith.

Is every man, woman and child from Adam to the last child born this very minute in the world saved? No? Then why the question? If all are to be saved, why is Hell even in the Bible? Is the whole world going to be saved, why then as by fire, a new heaven and new earth.

Last but certainly not least; Is God still in control or are we changing God to be who we want Him to be.

Why did Jesus come, preach salvation, die by crucifixion, preach to the captives, rise the 3 day, return to Heaven after 50 days, present His shed blood to the Father, sit down at His right hand and for us most of all come back born again in the believer that we might be called son' of God joint heirs with Jesus Christ to the Kingdom of God and live with God the Three in One for all eternity?

I see more in the bible not saved than I see saved. The saved according to His purpose and remnant for His Glory.

Praise God I believe; 1 John 5:9-13 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Hath or hath not?

In Christ: Phillip

I want to say that I recognize the heart in both Phillip and Marvin to give all glory to God the Father and our Lord Jesus for the salvation of men.

Let us be mindful of what Paul exhorted the Philippians - "and if we think differently, that too God will make manifest, only let us live up to that which we have attained.” May we avoid allowing these discussions to become wrangling over words. We are to endeavor to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Sincere and devout men, simple pastors and academic scholars, have studied the scriptures and drawn differing conclusions about some of the ways certain aspects of how this great salvation is imparted to men. None of them believe salvation is "of men” or possible apart from God’s grace. We all agree God is the author and finisher, and we agree in large part on many other wonderful truths.

There are significant ways that men differ in their understanding, and it would serve the body of Christ well to avoid simplifications and characterizations. I have spent much time in prayer asking God the Father to fill all involved in this discussion with His spiritual wisdom and understanding. There are certain forms of discussion that ruin the hearer, so we should continue to guard our communication with each other to insure that it is "full of grace and seasoned with salt.”

I would like to stimulate discussion on one aspect of this discussion that has arisen in this thread. We all understand that mankind has been corrupted by sin and every man is "dead in trespass and sin.” However, many godly men do not believe that this state has rendered mankind incapable of hearing, understanding, and receiving the good news by faith. This is an area where men think differently. I understand why those who believe mankind is incapable of hearing and receiving the gospel hold to the idea that only the elect are quickened to life and given the gift of faith. Their view of total depravity naturally leads to this conclusion and their reasoning is consistent with that basis. They see every aspect of "hearing, believing and responding to be God at work in a dead man.

However, other men believe that sinful men can still hear and understand the message of the gospel, and receive it by faith. These men do not believe this robs God of His glory or changes the nature of salvation being a gift of grace. They do not believe that men’s ability to hear, believe, and receive the gospel makes salvation "man centered” or gives any man a claim to boast in his faith.

I want to be brief, but I hope that others will contribute to this aspect of how men have a different understanding in this area. It helps to grant each other the same respect in regards to sincere study and integrity. Condescension, although only a tiny leaven, taints a discussion with pride and the contention which follows.

//but I hope that others will contribute to this aspect of how men have a different understanding in this area. It helps to grant each other the same respect in regards to sincere study and integrity. //

I certainly appreciate your sentiment here, but in some cases the different understandings are so very different and carry so much theological "baggage” that I am not sure they can be reconciled in any fashion. For me personally, for example, it is more than a mere matter of a theological difference, because I see one understanding as slanderous toward God.

Dear Alan and Dina Martin,

"I believed, therefore I have spoken".

Anyway, I will leave this thread.

mak wrote:

I would like to stimulate discussion on one aspect of this discussion that has arisen in this thread. We all understand that mankind has been corrupted by sin and every man is "dead in trespass and sin.” However, many godly men do not believe that this state has rendered mankind incapable of hearing, understanding, and receiving the good news by faith.

Ah yes, and some of the reformed position would have you believe that God somehow just zaps you into being saved (regenerated) in order that you can believe. Spurgeon, who was reformed, did not follow them in this folly. On this subject, Spurgeon said:

"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners."

I do believe that God can do a pre-salvation work of grace in a sinner to open his eyes to see his lostness, his need for a Savior and God can draw him, as Jesus said the Father would do to all who were to come to Him, to receive the ability to believe. God grants repentance and faith to those who receive salvation but that means he gives them the ability. It doesn't mean he "pulls the trigger" for them. God does not repent for me and neither does he believe for me. But he does draw me to Him, opens my blind eyes, shows me my need, gives me the desire and ability to repent and believe. It is up to me to respond positively to the gospel appeal. He doesn't do that for me.

More on the issue of "Does regeneration precede faith" can be found here:

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/regenera.htm

-Daniel

Hi Daniel: My interpretation is "all kinds of men", not every single man or woman born.

As far as theological toes, I will step on yours as fast as I will step on anyone else's. I owe my allegiance to Jesus first when it comes to understanding his word and his will.

My interpretations are my own ( though shared by many).

The reason I believe my interpretation of that text be accurate is, God has an Elect people, therefore God taking occasion by his own choosing of such an elect has left others out.

Hi Jade: great questions, I do not endorse double predestination, though many reformed do. I see God as passive in terms of creating vessels to dishonor. Meaning,
God leaves out the grace he would bestow on his elect, their own sin nature will fit them for a just destruction.
I don't see the necessity of divine decree for damnation when our own sin takes care of that adequately.

In Romans 1, where God 'gives them over', this is the withdrawing of divine light and act to preserve them. In short, their corruption is not God's active working, but their own when left to themselves. We see by this wicked men are always kept in check unless God withdraws his grace.

Yes it is and always has been God's doing that men are not saved.
1. Man has never been able to save himself at anytime.
2. God's withholding grace and mercies is his choice, if anyone takes issue with that, they must consult God, I have no right or knowledge to speak for him on that issue.

Those 4 soils and only 1 produced fruit? Which one? The one with good soil. That is election in working, where the heart is made fit for the word and what would come from the word. All other soils are just various kinds of religious-lost folks.

Lastly, when 'mankind' is used for 'world' it is a generality. You are making it a specific and that in itself is a defeater to your assertion, I need not reply to it for its contradictory in itself.

Thanks for the good question, I've asked all of these and more myself again and again.

Mak: Though we disagree on some issues here, I freely and openly praise God for men like you and request that God would raise up another 10,000 just like you.

Well said post as usual and what a demonstration of maturity and wisdom. Praise God for what he has done in you and is still working in me.

Daniel:

It doesn't mean he "pulls the trigger" for them. God does not repent for me and neither does he believe for me. But he does draw me to Him, opens my blind eyes, shows me my need, gives me the desire and ability to repent and believe. It is up to me to respond positively to the gospel appeal. He doesn't do that for me.

Well said, I would never preach anything but what Spurgeon has eloquently stated. "I am made willing in the day of his power",

I recognize you have issues with my theology, but I am your brother and we are on the same side fighting the same enemy.

//I do not endorse double predestination, though many reformed do. I see God as passive in terms of creating vessels to dishonor. Meaning,
God leaves out the grace he would bestow on his elect, their own sin nature will fit them for a just destruction. //

That amounts to a distinction without a difference.

From Wikipedia:

A distinction without a difference is a type of logical fallacy where an author or speaker attempts to describe a distinction between two things where no discernible difference exists.[1] ***It is particularly used when a word or phrase has connotations associated with it that one party to an argument prefers to avoid.*** (my emphasis)

Examples
"I did not lie; I merely stretched the truth a little bit."[2]

From the film This Is Spinal Tap:[3]
Marty: "The last time Tap toured America, they were, uh, booked into 10,000 seat arenas, and 15,000 seat venues, and it seems that now, on their current tour they're being booked into 1,200 seat arenas, 1,500 seat arenas, and uh I was just wondering, does this mean uh...the popularity of the group is waning?"
Ian: "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no...no, no, not at all. I, I, I just think that the.. uh.. their appeal is becoming more selective."

Marvin, I just want to say that although we've never had conversation before now, I have noticed you from afar and have seen that you are a kind, gentle and tender soul. I see Jesus in you. I may not agree on all points of doctrine with you, but you are my brother in Christ and I desire God's best for you as you let God's love rule in your heart. Grace and peace.

-Daniel

I certainly agree with Daniel and hope that disagreement, even strong disagreement, does not have to break unity.

I have been involved in very long hotly debated discussions in forums and I have been moved to change my position in three particular areas, the current discussion being one of those areas.

Hi Todd: Ok, we drank our coffee this morning ;)

That's a great way to get me to clarify what might not be common knowledge among non-reformed ( the logical fallacy distinction without difference)

I make the distinction because in reformed theology the double predestination camp ( I say that as a reference point only) conclude God is active in the predestining to condemnation. But as I read Rom 9, the greek for Gods dealing with vessels of wrath, dishonor etc is passive, so in order for me to maintain as close as I can to Paul's teaching, I too must consider God passive. The D.P. camp believe God has decreed the non-elect to damnation, where I do not see explicit scriptural proof for that position. I do see explicit wording for passivity on God's part.

The discernible difference between double-pred and non-double pred is God's active/passive role.

I personally don't like double predestination because in that doctrine God must eternally decree damnation, this also gets into what us reformed nerds call infralapsarianism and supralapsarianism. I am infra ( after the fall) The problem with these doctrines is they are built upon inferences and extrapolations. They in fact may be right and they may very well be wrong.

I discuss it here because you asked...but otherwise I would much rather glory in the right now work of God in you and I, rather than theological abstracts that are as difficult to explain as they are to prove.

by the way Spinal tap seriously? your showing your age...didn't that thing come out 40 years ago?

Haha never saw Spinal Tap but it came out in my college days. It was actually an example used in the Wikipedia article.

Daniel: That was really gracious of you, thanks brother.
I realize I am discussing reformed theology and that has been a sore spot in the past. In my efforts to declare my beliefs on the subject, I am happy and thankful for any and all questions. As Mak said, there are good men on both sides and that's a fact.

I want folks to feel comfortable ( at least with me) that when discussing something not all agree with, I have no bombs to drop no anathemas to shout and no agenda to conform everyone to my own conscience.

Thanks for again for a very kind word to me, it blessed me.