Pope Francis says there is no hell?

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/pope-francis-there-no-hell

This article (and the Italian interview that it references) states that Pope Francis, the current pope of the Roman Catholic Church, has stated that he doesn't believe people go to Hell when they die.

According to the article, Francis was asked in the interview about "bad souls" and where they would be punished. His response:

Pope Francis says, "They are not punished, those who repent obtain the forgiveness of God and enter the rank of souls who contemplate him, but those who do not repent and cannot therefore be forgiven disappear. There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls."

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/pope-francis-there-no-hell

I agree, emestiu. It is baffling that people want to be "Christians" (or, in this case, religious Catholics) yet completely ignore the teachings of Jesus Christ.

It makes no sense to me how anyone can call themselves christian and not believe in an eternal hell. It's the righteous judgment of God. I think people don't know God's character when they say there is no hell for unrepentant, wicked men.

Personally, I can't wait to see Jesus and dwell in the company of loving christians and angels for eternity. I'm so sick of filth and depravity all around me.

I want to rescue as many people from the lake of fire as possible, but if they stubbornly refuse God's grace and want evil, why do people think it is unjust for God to give them what they want (a place without God?)

//It makes no sense to me how anyone can call themselves christian and not believe in an eternal hell. //

Many very sound Christians do not believe in a hell of eternal torment. Have you ever read or studied their reasoning? They make very sound biblical sense if you actually study what they say.

One of the links Chris posted has a footnote from the Vatican that says Pope’s comments were not accurately quoted by the interviewer and were taken out of context.

Universalism, ultimate reconciliation, and every other shade of teaching that attacks the biblical doctrine of hell is completely heretical. If you say hell is not forever you must also say heaven is not forever, because the same Greek word for eternal is used to describe both heaven and hell, aionios. I think the problem goes deeper than mere theological differences; I think this doctrine is one of the core principles of christianity, and denying it is tantamount to denying the virgin birth of Jesus or His sinlessness.

I think what the Pope was trying to say is, I sure hope there's not a hell, because if there is, I know that's where i'm going when I pass.

Show me a preacher or teacher who denies hell and I'll show you a powerless man with a dead philosophy that can't bring people to repentance and relationship with Christ.

Simmer down there, Nigel. You do not know of what you speaketh, and spewing gross generalities and terms like heretical is nothing but a bullying tactic.

I don't mind being bullied as I am not that sensitive, but regardless that is what you are doing.

I do not believe you will actually take the time to do any research on this issue-- it is far far easier to simply do what you are doing.

Catholic Church has denied this article. So it is not a trusted source. I personally feel it will be good not to discuss about this news as it is not from a trusted source.

Todd,

Why not speak plainly and tell the SI forum that you agree with the Pope!

Next week's headline: "Pope: Gravity is an illusion."
Next month's headline: "Pope: I'm a bird, I'm a plane, I can fly."

//Why not speak plainly and tell the SI forum that you agree with the Pope!//

Why in the world would I do that?

Todd,

Do you believe in the eternal punishment/torment of hell spoken of in the Bible, in which the person in hell is conscious of where they are for all eternity?

I sum up the biblical evidence and support as follows:

1) eternal conscious torment: possible but not probable

2) evangelical universal reconciliation: possible but not probable

3). Conditional immortality: possible and probable

4) universalism (no hell, everybody goes to heaven): not possible

todd: Well, methinks you got some splaining to do Lucy!

This reminds me of the time when I joined a staunchly reformed group on facebook. The first time I said "I speak in tongues a lot" in a few short hours.......
Cut to the scene in Patton, where Patton has his first tank battle with Rommel; this mildly comprehends what took place.
Result? I didnt have to defend myself long, they kicked me out.

Way to start the weekend.

I've never heard of the term evangelical universal reconciliation.

Care to elaborate?

Nigel:

If a person does not believe in eternal punishment, but the usual annihilation, or non-existence...my usual reply is.

Then if sin has no eternal consequences, and the worst of sinners will matter of factly never face justice ( because there is no such thing as punishment of a non-existent entity) The necessity for becoming a Christian, for fearing God, or for regretting any of your sin is all mute.

Becoming a Christian is exactly the same as joining a club you prefer, its a preference to be a Christian and that preference is simply because there are benefits for me.
Otherwise, If I don't want to join the club I can in all reality destroy the world itself and all that it contains and I would not suffer as much as a paper cut.

There are few doctrines once removed from the pulpit that are as effective to display a false god, a false gospel and a false church as the removal of the doctrine of hell/eternal conscious punishment.

//todd: Well, methinks you got some splaining to do Lucy!//

Greg does not allow discussion/explanation of the alternative views of the fate of the wicked. Therefore that puts me at a distinct disadvantage.

But I will say that I have studied this for several years and I will tell you that nothing frustrates me more than flippant dismissals because folks who do so generally have no idea what they are talking about.

When I say evangelical universal reconciliation I do so to distinguish it from what most people think of when they hear the term universalism, namely that there is no hell and everyone just goes to heaven.

To summarize greatly, Universal Reconciliation holds that hell is real , the torment is real, but that the punishment is remedial and ultimately, given enough time, those in hell will repent. Of course this means that this view allows for the possibility of post-mortem repentance.

I am not going to provide support for any of the alternate views because Greg has previously stated he does not want this on the forum and I will comply with that. Besides there is a plethora of readily available resources should a person wish to look into it. Edward Fudge and Clark Pinnock (and many others) support Conditional Immortality; Thomas Thayer ( and many others) write in support of Universal Reconciliation.

Very cool Todd, thanks. I'll look into those authors.

I thought Rob Bell, held to something as you mention here Universal reconciliation?

Thanks for the clarification and thanks for helping me steer clear of dragging you into taboo areas.

My wife was raised Seventh day Adventist, they have a soul sleep, annihilation position, my wife was resistant to my point of view for years which resulted in many conversations.

My Father in Law was of the same opinion as my wife and he took me all over scripture in my younger years as a new-er believer. (When you get married you find out not all doctrinal positions come out when dating)

I was a resolute hell-fire guy to begin with; and after all those debates, conversations, bible studies and books I had to read I ended up becoming as certain of it as I am of Salvation by grace.

Over the years I have written more than I can count about the subject by reason of dissenters challenging my interpretation.

Thanks again for being candid.

I’ve noticed over the years that when well founded saints change their positions on fundamental doctrines, it’s unfortunately the result of an external circumstance they’re trying to resolve/reconcile with the word and when the word (as it is here) is clear beyond any intellectually honest questioning, they simply seek out an alternative meaning to plain, even redundant texts. This practice has been observed to take on a host of forms some of greater extremes than others. One case that occurred with someone very close to me happened as a result of a family member of there’s being tragically and senselessly murdered. The question of their salvation arose rather quickly and while on the surface it appears there’s very little chance as they were actively and unrepentanty living in open sin... I observed the family members each struggle with the revelation of the high probability of their close relative being condemned for eternity, in several cases I was put in very awkward positions thru questions relating to my opinion regarding the matter.
Over time (years) I’ve watched the members each respond differently to this tragedy... the person closest to me has unfortunately changed the most in their positions. Where before there was a healthy acknowledgement of the reality of hell and it’s horrors now it’s been questioned to the point of presently denying its existence-
Interestingly this took place incrementally, and amendments to several other core doctrines were required before they arrived at a place where they could comfortably reject the idea of the existence of hell. For this individual it was easier to change (in their minds) the word of God than it was to accept the consequence of the word relating to their departed loved one. Not surprisingly this individuals faith overall has weakened significantly and their interest in books "about the Bible” that appease these newly acquired doctrines has almost become an addiction. I say addiction because it’s as if a new source of information is required to maintain this position.
As a barber, I’ve witnessed this phenomenon occur for decades as I have personal contact with many people on a recurring basis for years. Recently (over the past decade) I’ve noticed this phenomenon of "changing the word” to fit the circumstance has become ever more frequent. Honestly it has taken quite a toll on me recently as just this week I’ve personally experienced several of these ranging from, homosexuality isn’t a sin- living in a adultry isn’t a sin- fornication isn’t a sin- or that there isn’t a hell to begin with... in each case the individual whom held these beliefs had once held the opposite belief but changed due to someone close to them needing an exception/exemption.
Needless to say my spirit is grieved beyond measure as I encounter these situations. Tho the Lord has me minister patiently and humbly to them they are almost always defensive and usually wind up offended.

This is not to say that everyone whom holds to this doctrine, does so as a result of this type of circumstance,... however from my experience the majority who change from believing in sin/hell etc- to not believing it usually do so in order to avoid accepting the truth as it’s clearly presented in scripture.

I dabbled very heavily with Christian universalism (ultimate reconciliation) in the late 1990's to early 2000's. But my dabbling ended when I started teaching Jesus at the jail. I had to leave my opinions at the door, believing and dabbling is one thing but to steer people in that direction is a whole other (Jesus) thing. (If you get my meaning).

About a month ago, I quit a non-denominational church I had been attending for over a year over this very topic: universalism. And then I brought up to a guard at the jail that I had quit this fellows church over this topic and some of the things he said led me to believe that he too believes in this. This "other" gospel has infiltrated the church.

Show me a preacher or teacher who denies hell and I'll show you a powerless man with a dead philosophy that can't bring people to repentance and relationship with Christ.

When I was into ultimate reconciliation, they would say, "get this special bible or this book to understand." No one loves to read more than I do!! But for someone to tell me I've got to read "another" book (other than the Bible) to understand the real meaning of hell is just nonsensical to me, imho.

God bless,
Lisa

Hi Frank-

No, I don’t believe in purgatory.

To many, hell is just like a movie, it plays on your emotions, but it's just not real!

It gets the same reaction...it's very moving!

But in less than 2 hours it's all done!

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

//And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever//

Judgment against Edom

"For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever." Is. 34

This reminds me of the sign I saw as I drove by a local church building the other day. They had coined a new motto for their bible study series they were starting on the subject of hell.

It read: "Don't Worry Be Happy"

Am I having an out of body experience, or, are we really debating if there is a hell or not here?

Hey Jude (oops), I mean Bill,

Just jump in and sing along with John and the Lennonites...

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Maybe after the sing along you'll have a genuine out of body experience!

Don't forget to wear your Sunday best this Easter Sunday!

No Todd, I am not bullying at all. I just take my Bible seriously, so seriously, in fact, that I will warn people about judgment and not say, "don't worry, hell is not forever, you can burn off your sins after a few million years."

I actually do like to research other opinions, so I will check out the authors you mentioned. However, I believe what Jesus said about hell being eternal, that is the straightforward reading of scripture.

There are certain aspects of Christian doctrine that are non negotiable, hell being one of them.

And I would say to everyone, if you are in a church that says hell is not real or that downplays it, run for your life. Get out of that church as fast as you can.

//Am I having an out of body experience, or, are we really debating if there is a hell or not here?//

No debate here, Bill. It is a topic worthy of discussion but it will not happen here.

//I actually do like to research other opinions, so I will check out the authors you mentioned. //

A fairly short paper by Edward Fudge is here:

https://edwardfudge.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/JETS_final_end_wicked.pdf

I did read some of the Edward Fudge article, and I found nothing to sway me from what the Bible says about hell. I think people using fleshly reasoning and not spiritual discernment come to these conclusions. I believe this is a fundamental error in understanding God's character. When you talk to sinners about their souls, what do you tell them? "Well, you should repent and accept Jesus, but if you don't, you'll just burn for awhile and then sleep forever"? What kind of incentive is that? It guts the gospel.

His whole article is a discussion on what the biblical passages say about hell, and you make the comment "I found nothing to sway me from what the Bible says about hell."

You don't have to be swayed, but when the entire article is devoted to talking about the various biblical passages that talk about hell, your statement is non-sensical. This is what I find so frustrating when discussing this topic. Rather than address specific points you disagree with, you make a misleading statement that makes it sound like he wasn't citing the Bible throughout the entire article.

It seems absurd to even debate the existence of an eternal hell in the light of Christ's words about hell. Let us boldly maintain that there is a hell and plead with people to flee from it before it's too late.

"knowing the terror of the Lord", the worm, and the fire, let us "persuade men" (2Cor 5:11).

It was J.C. Ryle that said, "it is not possible to say too much about Christ. But it is quite possible to say too little about hell."

As a side note; I watched the movie "I Can Only Imagine" today and one of the previews was about an upcoming movie about the pope. There was much ecumenical jargon about the need of the world uniting (supposedly under the pope's leadership). Very strange days we are living in and yet very exciting days because the Lord's return is near.

In Christ,

Bear if you read the article I linked below he addresses all those scriptures.

Fudge said that the scripture about "the smoke of their torment ascending up forever" proves the wicked will cease to exist and only the smoke will keep ascending. That is a pretty weak argument. Smoke dissipates. Seems to me he's "Fudging" a little bit.

Todd you have not addressed Blaine and I when we tried to explain what the word eternal means in reference to the eternal state of the just and wicked. The word in Greek is "aionios" and it means age lasting or forever. Like Blaine and I said, you can't have it both ways; heaven and hell are both either forever or they are temporary.

In regard to smoke rising forever we have to ask ourselves if the smoke rising from Edom's destruction described in Is. 34 really still rising. If not, why not? This scripture says that it is. Further, the smoke of the torment is not the same as the torment itself. The smoke from Sodom ascended well after its inhabitants were dead (Gen. 19:27).

In regard to everlasting life and everlasting punishment you yourself said that the word ainios can mean age-lasting. Further, a person who is extinguished is extinguished forever although the fire/smoke may continue after their extinguishment. I don't see the problem you raise in that passage. A person who is executed via capital punishment is dead permanently, at least as far as walking around on the earth is concerned. Similarly, a person that God snuffs out of existence after an appropriate time spent in the LOF is snuffed out for all eternity.

I want to reiterate here that I am not arguing that eternal conscious torment may not be the correct view-- it certainly may be. But if you truly do research the other evangelical views you will find very good biblical support for those views as well.

For example, the essay by Fudge that I posted is a very short abridgement of his much more complete work "The Fire that Consumes." Clark Pinnock and John Stott also have full scholarly works on the subject.

As I previously said, Greg does not like this topic debated so please don't ask me any more questions; any question or objection you have has been amply addressed by the authors I have noted, as well as many others. Steve Gregg has a very helpful book that lays out the arguments for and against the three main views (Traditionalism, conditional immortality and Restorationism). He addresses all the passages used by each camp and provides the pro and con arguments for each passage. https://www.amazon.com/All-Want-Know-About-Hell/dp/1401678300/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1522512118&sr=8-2&keywords=steve+gregg

Todd: I read Edward Fudge's article twice. The second time slowly seeking to obtain his intended meanings.

He is an annihilationist, but unlike the soul sleepers has sinners suffering for a time until their final annihilation.

His 3 point attack on the traditionalist view was well put together, but as I read, I realized he had truth in his hand, but put it down to take up something more suitable.

In my opinion he also committed a common mistake in bible study and that is to take OT allegorical references and define them in a way that New Testament references must shed their revelation and revert to OT analogy. I've been in numerous debates with others when this reversion was being used. It's error lay in dismissing the reality and substance of New Testament teaching in favor of analogous OT teaching in symbols and allegory.

This is his most clever usage of the tool when in the final analysis, the fate of the wicked is annihilation ( non-existence).

Then there were selective usages of aionion ( eternal) and it's 6 times usage as (age or period), yet ( at least in this article) dismissing the dozens of direct correlation 'eternal' life with death.
Now, not to be counterpunched, he merely denotes eternal death as annihilation to solve that correlation.

In the end, I see a mixing of perspectives, the one from the Saints point of view "The wicked die and are no more" Meaning their days are numbered only to be annihilated later. And the Sinners perspective "Fear him, after he has killed has power to cast into hell".
He intermixes them so for the sinner, the fearful warnings of wrath, judgment and doom are only a front.
There is no substance to them, (thanks to helpful OT texts used to allegorize-away actual conscious punishment)
So, for the sinner, he is to view it as a saint in that, "oh yea, I will be broken as a pot, I will be a dead carcass, my power will come to nothing"
So, in this very fashion, all fear of such a judgment is removed because at best the sinner might spend some time suffering, but it all ends with a big dramatic show for the saints and the sinners don't really feel a thing.

The real problems with his assertions lay in the unproven "torment for a time" and then annihilation sequencing...which means he's not really able to escape completely from conscious suffering and the idea that allegory was ( edit to add ) NOT, John the Revelator's true intent, rather, his was substance or true to being.
He made no mention in this short article that since death and hell are 'in' the lake of fire, those who were not written in the lambs book of life will be with 'death' and 'hell' eternally.
You cannot non-exist and yet eternally be 'with' hell or 'with' death 'in' a lake.
In short, you have an empty lake of fire for all of these who enter do so under the same verbiage, meaning what is analogous to the sinner must be necessity be so for the Devil.

You need not respond, I only wanted to let you know I did read the article and I did give your perspective some time and consideration without any cart-blanc dismissal.

This returns me to my original offering, that in the end justice is not served at the judgment throne of God, in fact you will receive vastly greater justice in our corrupt world courts than you will before the "Holy and Just God".
But, I hold no such blasphemous position, God will not analogously show his wrath, nor will he figuratively punish the wicked. Punishment of a non-existent being is a categorical error inconsistent with an all-wise God.
The terrible show of wrath, anger and hatred for wickedness all ends in the anti-climax of a persons transformation to non-entity.
This kind of justice is a perversion even among perverse men, how can I attribute this to God? I cannot and will not.

I have read these people you destroy the rules of Hermeneutics of New Testament Priority if you interpret an Old Testament passage to interpret a New Testament Passage it is simply wrong. Other proponent of this view are people like Rob bell, John Stott and most evangelicals have put him outside of the Christian Faith as this is a fundamental to the Christian Faith. I have been trying to find D A Carsons rules of Hermeneutics as if you do Theology it is standard 101 to know this!

Dr Phil Fernandes debated one of his proponents ! The Jehovahs Witnesses that was one of the first views they believed.

Chris Date and Phil Fernandes Debate Hell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaPz33dVPvc

If there is no Hell, there is no reason for God to save sinners, there is no Justice for Evil in this world! As people can do anything they want because they will simply get annihilated!
The Jehovah witnesses actually take the passage the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched actually out of there bible!

Mark 9:43
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched

This view is not something a christian can debate on as Jesus talked on in extensively!

Luke 16

Luke 16:19-31 King James Version (KJV)

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke 16:19-31 King James Version (KJV)

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 18:9
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

You cannot believe in Eternal Hell and Heaven at the same time as the same greek word is used.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The thing is this view is whether you are a Christian or part of a cult it is not a light subject!

At the moment I have been working in the hospital I have been seeing dead bodies most days they have been convered in blue coverings so you cant see that they are bodies.

I walk through ICU which is where people are dying and know that they will either go to Heaven or Hell and God has given them a chance. It is not a matter of opinion as God created us he has the right to take us to Heaven or Hell he has provided a way through his son by dying on the cross for our sin and raising from the dead giving us hope that when we die we will eternally be with him. If we do not believe Hell is eternal, why should we believe that Heaven is, God is more real than me.

If we reject that there is Eternal conscious torment as Hell we reject the reason for Jesus dying on the cross for our sin as we are simply annihilated, there is no justice.
Noone is rewarded and noone is judged. God is a unloving God if there is no Hell. Because he has not dealt with the problem of Evil as that is where God deals with the problem of Evil with an eternal Hell!
Rapist, Murders and others do not get justice, Hitler does not get justice if there is no Hell.
God created Heaven he has the right and he has provided only one way to get there and that is through his son if you reject him , eternal concius torment in Hell is the only option as he is God and King.
There is something called Regicide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regicide
where you commit a crime against the king, killing the king that is the highest crime according to the government now, hope about the king of kings and lord of Lords, the angels did not escape Hell and they sinned yet God sent them to Hell! Jesus has provided a way of salvation for us!

Where is the fear of God in this forum,

Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God
There is nothing that keeps wicked men, at any one moment, out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God.
http://edwards.yale.edu/archive?path=aHR0cDovL2Vkd2FyZHMueWFsZS5lZHUvY2dpLWJpbi9uZXdwaGlsby9nZXRvYmplY3QucGw/Yy4yMTo0Ny53amVv

We can believe in Pink Elephants can fly out of Nowhere but Heaven and Hell are more real than the computer keyboard that I am typing on, If God created the heavens and earth, he created those places aswell!

Marvin- thanks for your response and your valid points.

Concerning other authors.

I appreciate John Stott, Ive read his works and appreciate his ministry and preaching. Yes, I do disagree with his conclusion about Hell. Now, I've not read Stott's work on hell, only read exerpts and 'other' authors speaking of Stott's position.

Ive read Rob Bell's book which I found to be a patent journey into heresy, he is comfortable with heterodoxy and that kind of 'free thinking' no doubt made him popular with millenials and younger folks. He has a way of presenting the unorthodox in a way that makes you feel you need to buy a ticket to board his Titanic and experience a promised successful voyage. His book Love wins, displays a god that does not have a great value upon his law, his Son or his own judgments.

As to Clark Pinnock, he really grinds my nose. From his arrogant attacks on reformed theology to his embracing of Open Theism; I couldn't read him without feeling like I was taking a seminar with David Koresh or some other cultist.

Over the last 2 decades the body of Christ has witnessed the emergence of various highly educated scholars that obtain their praise and position by reason of calling 'traditional' meta-narratives into question and then offering alternatives.

Post-modernism is geared to remove the meta-narrative and adopt any relativistic option that gives more room to private and public sins without reproach.
The fact that God, hell, salvation, homosexuality, gender, feminism, children, authority and the Churches poor standing in public opinion are all spun into attacks within and without the body of Christ do show God's judgment upon the Church's failings...and the coming cleansing and purifying of it. God has a way of turning the sword of the enemy against them and the net that is spread for us, they fall into.

It's a good thing when the Pope makes such clear declarations about Hell and gender issues; his candid admissions make it where the youngest and most unlearned believer can steer clear of him and his teachings. Those who are already seduced by the babylonish imitation will likely not register a second look.

Rob Bell argues from emotion- I am not a fan.

People who argue from scripture, even if it may go against traditional understanding, are worth at least listening to (or reading).

After all, I left my "Left Behind" eschatology because I read and listened to voluminous teachings on alternative views. Before I actually came to realize there were alternative views to the Pre-trib rapture, I had no idea that such views even existed. Why? Tradition- pure and simple. But now I am convinced that "left behind" tradition held by practically every Christian I know personally is wrong. And they have no idea that there are even alternate views out there.

That is the danger of simply relying on tradition.

I've said it, Dominic has said it, if you take hell out of the Bible you have no gospel, nothing to save men from.

And like I've also said, these men like Rob Bell and Edward Fudge are powerless; the pablum they feed you might sound nice to carnal ears but it has no substance to it. Give me men like Jonathan Edwards and David Wilkerson, those are true men of God, men that love people enough to be unpopular, to warn sinners there is a penalty for their evil ways. They saw men's lives changed by the power of Christ. Rob Bell and his ilk produce nothing but false converts, people that are comfortable in their sins. They are dogs. I can't use strong enough language. Didn't Paul warn us people would turn to doctrines of devils in the last days?

The two men (Pinnock and Fudge), as Marvin already has noted, whose books are being appealed to by Todd on the subject of hell, are "Open Theists", believing in what is known as "the openness of God."

A primer on "Open Theism" is below. After reading it, you decide if you'd trust anything these men wrote on the subject of hell, or any subject for that matter.

"Open theism is a sub-Christian theological construct which claims that God’s highest goal is to enter into a reciprocal relationship with man. In this scheme, the Bible is interpreted without any anthropomorphisms ”“ that is, all references to God’s feelings, surprise and lack of knowledge are literal and the result of His choice to create a world where He can be affected by man’s choices. God’s exhaustive knowledge does not include future free will choices by mankind because they have not yet occurred.”

One of the leading spokesmen of open theism, Clark Pinnock, in describing how libertarian freedom trumps God’s omniscience says, "Decisions not yet made do not exist anywhere to be known even by God. They are potential”“yet to be realized but not yet actual. God can predict a great deal of what we will choose to do, but not all of it, because some of it remains hidden in the mystery of human freedom … The God of the Bible displays an openness to the future (i.e. ignorance of the future) that the traditional view of omniscience simply cannot accommodate.” (Pinnock, "Augustine to Arminius, ” 25-26)

Defining Characteristics

Open theism is characterized in several ways:

God does not have exhaustive knowledge of the future. Indeed, He cannot know certain future events because the future exists only as possibility. God is unable to see what depends on the choices of free will agents simply because this future does not yet exist, so it is unknowable. In this way open theists attempt to reconcile this doctrine with God’s ominiscience.

God takes risks. Because God cannot know the future, He takes risks in many ways ”“ creating people, giving them gifts and abilities, and so on. Where possibilities exist, so does risk.
God learns. Because God does not know the future exhaustively, He learns, just as we do.

God is reactive. Because He is learning, God is constantly reacting to the decisions we make.

God makes mistakes. Because He is learning and reacting, always dealing with limited information, God can and does make errors in judgment which later require re-evaluation.
God can change His mind. When God realizes He has made an error in judgment or that things did not unfold as He supposed, He can change His mind.

The most important thing to note is that God knows the future only as it is not dependent on human, free-will decisions. God does not know what any free-will agents (ie humans) will do, because those decisions do not yet exist and God cannot know what does not exist. God decided, in Creation, that He would limit Himself in this way in order to give complete freedom to human beings. Therefore, God does not know or control the future ”“ He learns from our decisions and constantly adapts as necessary. He often needs to change His mind or re-evaluate His options as the future unfolds.

Thanks for that Savannah. I don't trust anything these men say, they clearly have a wrong view of God's nature and personality.

Nigel,

Are you certain!

Maybe there is something to this "open theism", birthed in the pit of the abyss. Read this passage;

That same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven milesa from Jerusalem. They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. And as they talked and deliberated, Jesus Himself came up and walked along with them. But their eyes were kept from recognizing Him.

He asked them, "What are you discussing so intently as you walk along?”

They stood still, with sadness on their faces. One of them, named Cleopas, asked Him, "Are You the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in recent days?”

"What things?” He asked. Luke 24:13-19

Look at the questions asked by Jesus. It appears He was unaware of these things.

At any rate, Pinnock and Fudge now know the truth.

Howdy from Texas, hope yaw folks all have a wonderful Easter Day.....

Merry Xmas Mr Bill...

...I mean Ishtar!

...Seize the day for Jesus Christ!

by drifter
To Todd...
Like Blaine and I said, you can't have it both ways; heaven and hell are both either forever or they are temporary.

God bless

I don't know if anyone has brought this up but ....

Numbers 16:28-34

And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.

If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the Lord hath not sent me. But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord.

And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.

They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

Lysa wrote:

by drifter
To Todd...
Like Blaine and I said, you can't have it both ways; heaven and hell are both either forever or they are temporary.

I'd like to hear that one myself!
””””””””-

It’s not that hard to see how-

Is a small planet the same size as a small pebble?

So Todd, I'm curious; when you tell people about Jesus, what do you say? What's your message?

That depends on the situation and who I am talking to. But I would say on the whole I present a typical gospel presentation.

You can probably surmise that "repent or burn” is not my go-to message, but neither was it the Apostle Paul’s.

"Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men..." 2 Corinthians 5:11

I'd say it was...

"Repent, turn from your sin and believe Jesus took the penalty for your rebellion, but if you don't you'll just sleep for eternity..."

Doensn't sound very convincing to me...

Just watching "What's Wrong With The Gospel" by Keith Green and I heard something interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUl4zQZTde0

(Start watching at 26:36)

"You can bet your Bible that whenever someone believes false doctrine it's because they need to believe that false doctrine to have false peace."
-Keith Green

"You can bet your Bible..."

I heard of the Bible belt, but this is the first time I've heard of the Bible bet!

For all we know, this god of whom is being spoken of may very well change his mind about hell anyway. Since he don't even know the future, he may decide that all this wasn't such a good idea after all. Things just ain't turning out the way he'd planned. The future must be quite a foreboding thought to him.

But...then again...we're supposed to trust in him with all our heart. Sure hope he can figure things out, and do better this time. I guess he will just have to see what we humans do and go from there and see what happens.

Can't you just feel the tension!

I'm voting for him! All in favor say "I"

Nigel- if you think threatening hell was a focus of Paul’s preaching you are sadly mistaken.

Not threatening hell, warning sinners in love of eternal consequences. I would never point a condescending finger at a lost person and shout at them they are going to hell; I warn them with love and brokenness about their destiny if they keep rejecting God's love.

Big, big difference.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above..."
Exodus 20:4

Seems to me a lot of the time people have an image of God that bears no resemblance to who He is. Edward Fudge, for example, said telling people that God sends people to hell for eternity would "turn sinners off" and make them atheists. I guess tell that to Charles Finney or D. L. Moody. I bet Fudge had way more converts than them...

Nigel- I guess my point is that Paul never uses the word "hell” one time- not in the book of Acts and not in any of his epistles. Not one time! How could he be so negligent as to omit such a drastic and dire part of the gospel message?

"Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God” (Acts 20:26,27

Todd,

Re: Paul -

You say, "How could he be so negligent..."

He wasn't. Have you not read? In the lost books of the disciples it is written how Paul was enlightened when he came across a book written by the great great great great great great great and greater yet, grandson of Ed Fudge.

Not only did he come across that book, but another. Written by the great great great great great great great and greater yet, grandson of Clark Pinnock. So, he wasn't negligent at all. He understood that god wasn't sure if a hell would be necessary in the future. So, not to offend anyone he figured that it would be best to wait and see what the gentiles might do, since god was hoping that the future might go better than the past.

Or, it might also have been that it took god by surprise when he got wind of what Paul had omitted on the subject of hell.

Yet, Jesus went ahead and said these words,

"And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him! Luke 12:4,5

It may be that he didn't know that in the future there'd be no hell required!

You can thank Pinnock and Fudge for coming along and clearing these things up.

It is appointed to men once to die, and after this, judgment. Heb. 9:27

They've each kept their appointment!

Regardless, I stand by my statement.

And in case anyone is confused, my statement "how could he [Paul] be so negligent” was rhetorical.

A small part of an article titled "If Hell is Real," from a popular reconciliation-of-all web site:

//////////////////////////

If Hell is real how could the Apostle Paul (who was especially commissioned by God to preach the gospel to the nations) say that he had declared the entire counsel of God (Acts 20:27), when indeed he never warned of "Hell" in any of his letters? If Hell is real, wouldn't Paul, of all people, warn of it repeatedly?

If Hell is real, the sin/death of Adam has had a far more powerful effect on the world than the resurrection life of Christ! And yet Paul declares in Romans 5 that Christ's victory is far greater than Adam's transgression! Listen to Paul's confidence in the work of Christ! If Paul believed in eternal hell for the majority of men, how could he write the following verses?

".Just as the result of one trespass (Adam's) was condemnation for all men , so also the result of one act of righteousness (Christ's) was justification that brings life for all men . For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. ( Romans 5:18,19).

"Since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22)

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe" (1 Timothy 4;10).

(The above verses are just a few of the many verses where Paul writes of a pre-eminent Christ that far transcends the traditional Christian view. This article is full of many more New Testament references by Paul that display his views of the Christ triumphant, unlimited, all-powerful, all-conquering, and victorious).

If Hell is real, why is it that the only time Paul even mentioned "Hell" in any of his epistles, was declare the triumph of Christ over it? (1 Corinthians 15:55). The word "Grave" in the passage is the Greek word "Hades."

If Hell is real, why is it not mentioned once in the book of Acts in any the evangelistic sermons that were recorded by the early Apostles?

If Hell is real why do some of the best Bible scholars and Bible teachers say it is not in the Greek or Hebrew text? (William Barclay, John A.T. Robinson, Lightfoot, Westcott, F.W. Farrar, Marvin Vincent, etc.)

If Hell is real, why does the word itself come from the Teutonic "Hele" (goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe ). The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word.
////////////////////////////////

Can we who believe in eternal punishment answer these questions Biblically or are we fighting a losing battle? (I'm at work and this is all I had to time to post)

Hey Lysa-

Of course a traditionalist can answer biblically. That is all I have been saying- there is actually strong biblical support for three views of hell.

The reason folks don’t want to acknowledge that there is biblical support for all three is because it is too much of a shock to their system and what they have always been taught and believed.

Todd,

You stated,

"...there is actually strong biblical support for three views of hell."

That is impossible!

It's possible to come to the conclusion that there is, but it's impossible for that to be true.

Well, obviously all three cannot be true. But there is definitely good support for all three if a person is willing to study it without preconceived notions.

This certainly is not the only area where divergent camps claim (quite adequately) that scripture supports their view to the exclusion of the other. I can think of two such areas right quick.

The correct and reasonable response to these dilemmas is to say "I can see why you hold that position, and the scriptures you cite do seem to support your position." Then depending on the person they will either explain why they disagree without getting personal, or swallow their pride and maybe take a further look at what the scriptures say. Over time they may or may not change their position.

The incorrect and unreasonable response is: "You are a heretic, reprobate, or sheep in wolf's clothing because your interpretation does not agree with mine."

Only the Holy Spirit can show a person the reality of hell. If we use our own reasoning, or tout "higher learning" (like Fudge does), we invariably come to wrong conclusions.

Jesus warned of hell, so it stands to reason that Paul also warned of it. He may have not used the word "hell", but he certainly warned of God's wrath.

Todd, I don't know you personally. I don't know your state before God. All I know is that all through history, men anointed of God have warned sinners about hell, and mighty revivals followed. False prophets have always said "Don't worry, you'll escape judgment; ye shall not surely die. Hell isn't real." Which category do you fall into? Don't you find it odd that so many cults deny hell?

And for everyone on here, please, get on your knees before God and ask Him to show you the plain, undeniable reality of hell. You only miss it if you want to, if you purposely twist scriptures. When I read scripture I hear a loud trumpet, a holy God warning sinners "Hell is real. My Son spoke of it, the prophets spoke of it, My servants all through history spoke of it. Run from this awful fate into the arms of Jesus." I think if you can't see this, you have lost sight of God's heart; something is wrong.

We haven’t even got into the discussion about what Jesus meant when he used the word "hell” (of course he did not use that word at all, but rather a word translated that way for some unknown reason).

Also- I am not sure what you mean when you say the prophets warned of hell. I will grant that Hades or Sheol has been mistranslated as "hell” in some Bible versions, but it is doubtless a mistranslation.

ADD: I wanted to add that if a person’s motivation for "being saved” is avoiding hell, he is still a self-centered person who has not truly repented.

Salvation is for God’s glory, not ours. Rebel’s have not recognized that there is one true King, one Jesus, to whom they must bow and submit, forsaking all rights to themselves and all other allegiances. If they are still thinking of how this "salvation” will benefit them they have not repented. Paul said he was was willing to be accursed for the sake of his brethren; many today "respond” to a gospel message to protect themselves from being accursed. A bad motive in my mind means there has been no repentance.

Question: Will we pray for ALL men to be saved?

Ezek. 22:30-31 ”“ I searched for a man among them who would build up the wall and stand in the gap before Me for the land, so that I would not destroy it; but I found no one.

Isa. 59:16 -- And He saw that there was no man, And was astonished that there was no one to intercede;

Isa. 53:12 -- Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.

Luke 23:34 -- But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing."

Ps. 65:2 -- O You who hear prayer, To You all men come.

Ps. 145:21 -- My mouth will speak the praise of the LORD, And all flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever.

Thank you Todd for all of your posts. There seems to be such an inadequacy of people really hearing what you are saying. What I am hearing is that you are not claiming that you hold the whole truth and nothing but the truth. But that tradition/religion keeps us in a bubble and we think that there is no other beliefs than our own.
Exploration is key to learning what you truly believe, but tradition and religion want to prohibit people from even reading other beliefs that don't fit into their own theological statement. Also, that there could be other ways that God decides to handle things. Which is His right. I truly hope that hell is not eternal, but I really don't know.

I was definitely raised on turn or burn theology. I readily admit I came to Christ strictly to avoid hell. The
"beginning" of wisdom is fear and it does serve a purpose, but it is incomplete imo because it is only the beginning of wisdom. I appreciate it when a person is willing to truly read and give time and consideration to other interpretations.

Also, to the ones that keep saying how do you share your beliefs... what do you say.... "If you don't repent you will just vanish for all eternity." or "what's the point if you can't preach CONSCIOUS AWARENESS OF ETERNAL PUNISHMENT AND TORMENT! Or "what's the point of preaching repentance if there is no punishment for sin?" WOW!! Didn't Paul say it was God's kindness that leads to repentance, as well as they will know you are Christ's because of your love one for another and a million other verses about the love of God? And how sin brings DEATH. I dare say that the motivation of SURRENDER to Jesus, the process of TURNING FROM sin, the process of being CONFORMED to His image, the process of truly being born again, the process of loving others as He loved, the process of walking in a deep revelation knowledge of Him and HIS LOVE FOR US should be the motivation of wanting to spend eternity with THE ONE WHO LOVES ME! To bring GLORY TO HIS NAME ONLY!! TO WORSHIP HIM! FOR THE SAKE OF HIS NAME BEING GLORIFIED AS THE GREAT I AM and THE KING OF KINGS and the thought of NOT spending eternity(wherever that might me) with THE ONE WHO LOVES ME AND CREATED ME is a tormented thought. Might I propose that many believers have yet to walk in an ever deepening revelation of the burning and intense love of God, so therefore they cannot fathom the gospel-GOOD NEWS- without the fear motivation? All I know is that fear will keep you for a bit, but it will never bring about TRUE CHANGE in the depths of one's heart. Just doing something out of fear is not walking as a new creation IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

Now, do I believe in eternal hell... honestly I don't know. I still tend to believe that it is eternal and I definitely do not speak of my thoughts on this matter to just anyone.. only a few trusted people will I have this conversation with. But I definitely speak of coming to Christ with the above mentioned motivations. I pray for a deep revelation of God's love to bring them to Christ to be known as HIS BELOVED. blessings!!

Thank you Tina for your post - you definitely understand where I am coming from.

Well said!

I have never claimed one should seek salvation solely because he is afraid of hell. People repent when they are convicted by the Holy Spirit.

On that note, the Holy Spirit's job is to convict us of sin, righteousness and judgment to come. I firmly believe the Holy Spirit will faithfully warn us that there is a judgment coming, and everyone who rejects the Son of God will suffer the vengeance of eternal fire (Jude 1:7). People can go ahead and superimpose their own ideas onto crystal clear verses like this, "well, you see, the fire burns forever but the people don't" or some other theological gymnastics, but I'll take God at His Word. I'll get my theology from the Bible and not Jehovah's Witnesses or some other cult, thank you very much.

"We need a baptism of old fashioned hell fire preaching, I'm sure of that."
-Leonard Ravenhill

"You cannot find me a generation of preachers that hasn't had a revival at some time, and one of the main theological points was preaching on hell."
-Leonard Ravenhill

Casey James Lawhorn, 23, said on Facebook that he killed his mother and a close friend April 8, 2018 in East Ridge, Tenn. (Allie Caren/The Washington Post).

From his Facebook post confession;

"As I sit here in Mississippi, writing this on the side of I-59 south after my car broke down, what I look forward to is the nothingness after death. I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about murder, wondering what it feels like. But I’ve barely felt anything.”

"Since so many people keep trying to reach out to me on Facebook, I figure I can just say my piece once here and be done with it. Before I start, I need to emphasize that I take full responsibility for my actions. Nothing anyone has or hasn’t done to me caused this, my decisions and my failures are my own.”

"I don’t want or need forgiveness from anyone. What I did is unforgivable. Nothing happens after death, but if there is a hell, I’m going to be in the lake of ice at the bottom.”

----------------------------

Sounds like these no-hell authors and supporters are making headway.

This is as serious as it gets!

Will the real preachers please stand up!

But even if one were to rise from the dead, many would still refuse to believe.

But...lets not take it personal...!!!