War Drums and Birth Pangs

Guess what Bear”” Jesus is coming back! Not sure when, but he is. That’s all I need to know. Remember, He Himself said it would be at a time no one expects. Hallelujah!

What about the observable things Jesus and Paul said would happen before He came thus giving us sure signs that His coming is near and growing nearer? We may not know the day or hour but can know things that have to happen before He comes.

No other group of people on the earth but Christians are able to partake of the peculiar value of prophecy which already has a verifiable 100 percent accurate track record.

Bear, I’m deep, really deep into Jesus, and I woke up this morning to some noise in the distance, could have been war drums, am I good to go? Or is there something else I need to do to prepare? What happens if I’m asleep in Christ before Jesus comes back, will all my preparation be in vain?

Just be ready by April 23. I don't know the exact time or hour of the day but tend to your business before then bro!

Oh boy the moon and Jupiter will be in Virgo on April 23. And Planet X smashing into the earth. Horrors. Really David? Please tell me you don't believe such utter nonsense.

But Frank-

What were folks saying during the Civil War? Or the Black Death decimating Europe? Or WWI and WW2? The Spanish Flu epidemic of 1917? It alone killed millions and millions of people. Believe it or not I am not scoffing. I just don't understand why now all of a sudden we are in the birth pangs and back then in the teens and 40's we weren't.

We have seen nothing even remotely close to those events. But now we are in birth pangs? Maybe, but why weren't we in birth pangs back then?

Obviously, every day that passes puts us a tad closer to the return of Jesus, but it takes no rocket scientist or prophecy to figure that out.

And these poor misguided folks (to put it nicely)- unfortunately many who claim to be Christians, saying the world will end on 4/23/18 because of an unknown and undiscovered planet Nibiro coming out of nowhere and destroying the earth concomitant with the rapture. How can intelligent people believe such idiocy?

Bear-- why don't you address the specifics of my post? Why weren't the horrific events I mentioned "birth pangs?" Why wasn't the utter destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD a birth pang?

And don't you agree that every day that passes brings us closer to Jesus's return? Why is right NOW, this point in history, the beginning of birth pangs?

And I hope David was being sarcastic. I couldn't tell. If so I apologize.

No matter what has come before, the end time scenario is impossible without a Jewish presence in Palestine (Canaan). We are among the first Christians in nearly two thousand years to see this. We have come full circle. Things are not the same as they have always been before.

//Fast Pace 10 minute video that gives snapshot headlines of events that concern end time prophecies.//

Good grief Bear- there is nothing new under the sun. Are tensions higher now than they were during the Cuban missile crisis? Iran has always hated and threatened Israel with destruction. What else is new.

But now its a birth pang. Whatever!

I can’t get past vs 34.

Read the account of Josephus in regard to the heavenly signs prior to Jerusalem’s destruction. Easy to find via quick google search.

The War Drums are beating over in Syria tonight.

Josephus says there were heavenly signs prior to 70ad. Do you think he was lying?

...brothers, no matter what the signs are showing, we know we are living on the edge, right?
Closer to the coming of the Lord than ever, right?

This should motivate us to do what?

"...encourage one another to love and good works,not forsaking the assembly, encouraging one another, even more so as we see The Day approaching"

"...comfort one another with these words (regarding Christ's return)"

Encourage one another to persevere in doing good to all men.
(This hopefully includes proclaiming the Good News of salvation in Jesus Christ to the unsaved)

1 John 3 verse 2b and 3:"We know that when He is revealed we will be like Him for we will see Him as He is. AND everyone who has this HOPE purifies himself, just as Jesus is pure"

It is time, brothers, to draw near to God, personally and corporately, and continue to stir and encourage one another to be true people of God, pursuing holiness in the fear of God, consecrating ourselves to His will more and more and preparing our hearts and lives for His soon appearing

God bless,

"If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.”
2 Chronicles 7:14

Frank there are ample, ample explanations of this which can be found with minimal effort and we have discussed it before on the forum ad nauseum.

To summarize greatly, coming on the clouds and the rest of the language Jesus uses is a common OT symbology for judgment.

So my answer to you is that yes, everything Jesus said happened at 70 AD, if you take into account the type of language Jesus was using and don't insist on hyper-literalism where the OT prophets did not expect hyper literalism using the same language and accept that Jesus was using that type of language.

Yes Frank, it does sound quite extreme Preterism what Todd is saying.

Todd, are we to assume you are saying the end times have come and gone? What days have we been living in since AD70? Has Christ set up His kngdom on earth already and we just don't realise it and how peaceful and righteous life on earth has been for the last two millenia? Is this as good as it gets!? Any chance of a new heaven and earth as promised?

I made up the term hyper literalism but it seems you understand my meaning.

What did Jesus mean when he said this before the Sanhedrin:

64 "You have said so,” Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Matthew 26:64

Who was he talking to? Who is "you?”

And what did He mean when he said:

34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until ALL these things have happened.
Matthew 24:34

Who was he talking to?

People who say he was talking to us today are saying he was not being literal.

And yes, I absolutely believe Jesus is coming again, yet future. I am decidedly not a full preterist. I just believe that Mt 24 is about the coming judgment in 70 AD. Jesus was speaking prophetically so He was using the language of a prophet.

ADD: why is it so offensive to see that Jesus used hyperbole or non literal language?

"34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:34

"When Jerusalem shall be reduced to ashes, and that wicked nation cut off and rejected, then shall the Son of man send his ministers with the trumpet of the gospel, and they shall gather together his elect of the several nations from the four corners of heaven: so that God shall not want a church...”

John Lightfoot(1602-1675, Commentary on Matthew)
_____________________

Verse 31
And he shall send his angels,.... Not the angels, i.e. ministering spirits, so called, not from their nature, but their office, as being sent forth by God and Christ; but men angels, or messengers, the ministers and preachers of the Gospel, whom Christ would call, qualify, and send forth into all the world of the Gentiles, to preach his Gospel, and plant churches there still more, when that at Jerusalem was broken up and dissolved. These are called "angels", because of their mission, and commission from Christ, to preach the Gospel; and because of their knowledge and understanding in spiritual things; and because of their zeal, diligence, and watchfulness,

With a great sound of a trumpet, meaning the Gospel; see Isaiah 27:13 so called in allusion either to the silver trumpets which Moses was ordered to make of one piece, and use them for the calling of the assembly, the journeying of the camps, blowing an alarm for war, and on their solemn and festival days, Numbers 10:1. The Gospel being rich and precious, all of a piece, useful for gathering souls to Christ, and to his churches; to direct saints in their journey to Canaan's land; to encourage them to fight the Lord's battles; and is a joyful sound, being a sound of love, grace, and mercy, peace, pardon, righteousness, life and salvation, by Christ: or else so called, in allusion to the trumpet blown in the year of "jubilee"; which proclaimed rest to the land, liberty to prisoners, a release of debts, and restoration of inheritances; as the Gospel publishes rest in Christ, liberty to the captives of sin, Satan, and the law, a payment of debts by Christ, and a release from them upon that, and a right and title to the heavenly inheritance. The Vulgate Latin reads it, "with a trumpet, and a great voice"; and so does Munster's Hebrew Gospel; and so it was read in four of Beza's copies:

and they shall gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other; that is, by the ministration of the Gospel; the Spirit of God accompanying it with his power, and grace, the ministers of the word should gather out of the world unto Christ, and to his churches, such persons as God had, before the foundation of the world, chosen in Christ, unto salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth; wherever they are under the whole heavens, from one end to another; or in any part of the earth, though at the greatest distance; for in Mark 13:27 it is said, "from the uttermost part of the earth, to the uttermost part of the heaven". The Jews say, that "in the after redemption (i.e. by the Messiah) all Israel shall be gathered together by the sound of a trumpet, from the four parts of the world.

””””Gill’s exposition of Matthew

Obviously other commentators state differently, some say through v 22 pertains to 70 ad and remainder to the 2nd coming; I see no clear break where Jesus said he was shifting gears but maybe he was.

The cut and paste is to show how those verses you bring up can be interpreted. I said that other commentators say different. You obviously don’t agree with the commentaries I referenced which is perfectly fine with me.

The answer to your question is that the church grew fairly explosively in that generation.

You insist that the words "the elect” mean every Christian that ever lived, therefore you cannot accept that the prophecy occurred in "this generation.” The two commentators explain that term in the sense of those early Christians reached by the spread of the gospel message by its ministers in that generation.

This isn’t a huge deal to me; I know Jesus will be coming back; we have been in the last days since Christ ascended.

Todd said...This isn’t a huge deal to me; I know Jesus will be coming back; we have been in the last days since Christ ascended.

Again, there are certain definite things that scripture reveal that must take place before the event of Christ's second coming. They don't pinpoint the day or the hour but they pinpoint specific events that will take place before His coming. If we don't know the day or the hour we can know for sure things that must occur before He comes that will enable us to know with certainty that the day is indeed fast approaching. It is a bit baffling that since it is believed and said we don't know the day or the hour that we in turn pay no attention to the things we can know.

David said...It is a bit baffling that since it is believed and said we don't know the day or the hour that we in turn pay no attention to the things we can know.

Bear, if you're are talking to me, did you really read my post? I said...

Mr. Bill said...I don't believe for one minute most Christians pay no attention to these things.

by bearmaster
But are we not call to be on the alert?

~~~ Therefore be alert, since you don't know the day your lord is coming... Mat. 24:42

I believe we are called to be alert to His coming. I, personally, have to be careful how "alert" I am! I can get all invested into "His coming" and studying it and now study the Scriptures for the sake of the Scriptures and my love of them. I've been there and done that, so I watch, read what you post without replying (because again, getting involved can envelope me).

But God bless you brother for us posted and letting us discern whether or not we want to get involved in the post.

Lisa

How does this video (which I watched in full) relate to His coming? I honestly have no idea. Maybe someone can summarize it for me.

Deleted”” thought better of it. Doesn’t matter.

The Encyclopedia Britannica (11th ed):

"Tiglath-Pilesar invaded Syria, and in 732 succeed in reducing Damascus. . . Except for the abortive uprising under Sargon in 720, we hear nothing more of Damascus for a long period.”

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

"Damascus had now lost its political importance, and for more than two centuries we have only one or two inconsiderable references to it. It is mentioned in an inscription of Sargon (722”“705 BC) as having taken part in an unsuccessful insurrection along with Hamath and Arpad. There are incidental references to it in Jer 49:23 ff and Ezek 27:18; 47:16 ff.”

Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible:

"The city’s doom was predicted by Isaiah (8:4; 17:1), Amos (1:3”“5), and Jeremiah (49:23”“27). Rejecting God, Ahaz of Judah turned for protection to an alliance with the Assyrians, whom he bribed with the temple treasure. The Assyrian king Tiglath-pileser III (‘Pul’) agreed and marched against the Syro-Israelite confederation. After defeating Israel he attacked Damascus, plundered the city, deported the population, and replaced them with foreigners from other captured lands. Damascus was no longer an independent city-state.”

William Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible:

"Under Ahaz it was taken by Tiglath-pileser, (2 Kings 16:7, 8, 9) the kingdom of Damascus brought to an end, and the city itself destroyed, the inhabitants being carried captive into Assyria. (2 Kings 16:9 ) comp. Isai 7:8 and Amos 1:5. Afterwards it passed successively under the dominion of the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans and Saracens, and was at last captured by the Turks in 1516 A.D.”

"The conquest of Damascus by Tiglath-Pileser III (733-732 BC) is the final result of the Assyrian intervention against the anti-Assyrian coalition of Rezin of Damascus and Pekah of Israel against Ahaz of Judah. Rezin and Pekah tried to capture Jerusalem, capital city of the kingdom of Judah, but they failed (about 735”“734 BC). Tiglath-Pileser III came to the aid of Ahaz of Judah, who promptly asked for the help of the Assyrian king. He finally destroyed the power of Damascus, by besieging the city, forcing king Rezin to surrender, as well as by conquering the whole region once under the control of Damascus. Rezin of Damascus died during the siege, according to the Bible (II Kings 16:9). After the conquest by Tiglath-Pileser III, Damascus was no longer the capital of the independent and rich kingdom of Aram.”

And this thread has been Resurrected.. :-)

This thread may be able to be resurrected, but not this prophecy in Isaiah 17:1 which has undoubtedly been fulfilled!

K&D commentary on Isaiah 17 Verses 1-3

The first turn: "Behold, Damascus must (be taken) away out of the number of the cities, and will be a heap of fallen ruins. The cities of Aroer are forsaken, they are given up to flocks, they lie there without any one scaring them away. And the fortress of Ephraim is abolished, and the kingdom of Damascus; and it happens to those that are left of Aram as to the glory of the sons of Israel, saith Jehovah of hosts.” "Behold,” etc.: (hinneÌ„h) followed by a participle indicates here, as it does everywhere else, something very near at hand. Damascus is removed מעיר (= עיר מהיות, cf., 1 Kings 15:13), i.e., out of the sphere of existence as a city. It becomes מעי, a heap of ruins. The word is used intentionally instead of ×¢×™, to sound as much as possible like מעיר: a mutilated city, so to speak. It is just the same with Israel, which has made itself an appendage of Damascus. The "cities of Aroer” (gen. appos. Ges. §114, 3) represent the land to the east of the Jordan: there the judgment upon Israel (executed by Tiglath-pileser) first began. There were two Aroers: an old Amoritish city allotted to the tribe of Reuben, viz., "Aroer on the Arnon” (Deuteronomy 2:36; Deuteronomy 3:12, etc.); and an old Ammonitish one, allotted to the tribe of Gad, viz., "Aroer before Rabbah” (Rabbath, Ammon, Joshua 13:25). The ruins of the former are Arair, on the lofty northern bank of the Mugib; but the situation of the latter has not yet been determined with certainty (see Comm. on Joshua 13:25). The "cities of Aroer” are these two Aroers, and the rest of the cities similar to it on the east of the Jordan; just as "the Orions” in Isaiah 13:10 are Orion and other similar stars. We meet here again with a significant play upon the sound in the expression (”›aÌ‚reÌ„) (”›Aro”›eÌ„r) (cities of Aroer): the name of Aroer was ominous, and what its name indicated would happen to the cities in its circuit. ערער means "to lay bare,” to pull down (Jeremiah 51:58); and ערער, ערירי signifies a stark-naked condition, a state of desolation and solitude. After Isaiah 17:1 has threatened Damascus in particular, and Isaiah 17:2 has done the same to Israel, Isaiah 17:3 comprehends them both. Ephraim loses the fortified cities which once served it as defences, and Damascus loses its rank as a kingdom. Those that are left of Aram, who do not fall in the war, become like the proud citizens of the kingdom of Israel, i.e., they are carried away into captivity. All this was fulfilled under Tiglath-pileser. The accentuation connects ארם שׁאר (the remnant of Aram) with the first half of the verse; but the meaning remains the same, as the subject to יהיוּ is in any case the Aramaeans.

Bear that is a dispensational/left behind way of looking at things and you can certainly do that.

But even Tim LaHaye, Mr Left Behind himself stated that Is 17:1 was fulfilled near the time of Isaiah’s writing.