Friendships between Baptists and Pentecostals?

Hello everyone,

here am I once again with a question: What do you think about "interdenominational friendships", in this case about a friendship between Pentecostals and Baptists?

I am "P", although I prefer to describe myself as a follower of Christ. In my town I met some Baptists sharing tracts and started to talk with them, visited several times their church and I somehow love them. I do understand that we have doctrinal differencies (i.e. on praying in tongues) but... If they are truly children of God, is there something wrong or dangerous in having fellowship with them, too? Or is there a danger that I "fall from the faith" and be drawn by doctrines of men?

Yours in Christ, E.

I started out Baptist, went more charismatic, now I'm back to Baptist. Good friends on both side of the aisle. In my experience the best Bible teachers are Baptists, the best prayers are charismatics.

I have never heard of a Pentecostal shunning a Baptist- over what? I went back to Baptist because of the gross excesses of the charismatic movement, and the fact its hard to find a serious Bible study on the charismatic side.

There is not enough doctrinal difference to warrant avoiding Baptists. However, it doesn't necessarily work the other way around, particularly if the charismatic church is a tad wacko.

You’re right- I was using them interchangeably. My bad.

Oh God! How sick the church is that questions like these can even be asked

Agree, Tyler. This must surely break our Heavenly Father's heart.

I ask:

What is a Christian?

All denominations and church groupings have the doctrines of men alongside the doctrinal truths of scripture. This includes the cessesationist Baptist and Pentecostals/ Charismatics. Whichever side of the pendulum swing you are on, there will be man's tradtions and doctrinal stances added to biblical truth. Unfortunately everyone believes their particular set of doctrines are solid biblical truth. We saw this play out in the recent cal/arm debate.

There is only person I know who has all their doctrine 100% correct. Thats me! :) Joking obviously, but this is how we think too often.

Hope you find can have fellowship with the Baptists that are part of your family if the are born of God.

Frank, It is equally true to ask how many Petecostals would protest if Paul came and said that 'tongues' is the least of the gifts and not all spirit filled Christians have that gift? Ref "Do all speak in tongues?". Rhetorical, meaning 'no'.

Frank, I was alluding to the petecostal position of tongues as the evidence for baptism of the Spirit. I concede not all Petecostals hold to that view.

I'm not defending the Baptist position, but see both if not all traditions have their blind spots. I too have over many years had and have fellowship with both Pentecostal and Baptist traditions. Not quite 40, but around 36. :)

I believe that labeling believers as Baptists, Pentecostals, etc. etc. only brings division within the Body of Christ. We tend to have our own preconceived ideas as to what those labels mean, and not all Baptist Churches teach the same thing concerning the Baptism and gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the same is true of Pentecostal Churches. Many people that hear of the name "Pentecostal" think that it relates to
a Pentecostal denomination, but there are Christians from every denomination that have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, that are Pentecostal, because they have the experience of Pentecost.

The basis of all fellowship is that as born again believers in Jesus Christ, that we have all been made to drink out of the same Spirit. The enemy is behind all of these debates on doctrine. We can still disagree on many things and still remain in fellowship with one another.

It is the will of God that all of the Body of Christ would come to the unity in the faith, and this will only come about if we are allowing the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us into all of the truth, having a teachable spirit, and speaking the truth in love.

Mike,

The fact is they label themselves, it is not us putting the label on.
In labelling themselves they then box themselves in to a doctrinal position that comes with that particular group. Hence the original question, 'Can I being a Pentecostal fellowship with a Baptist?'
Granted many are part of said churches who may not label themselves as such, or box themselves in doctrinally, that said it is a problem of the system.

@Tyler - I do not know why do you think that the chruch is sick. It was I that posted the question, and the others may (and partly do) have a different view on that.

Actually I know that there are great differencies among churches even of the same denomination. So also among Baptists, Pentecostals etc. My point was that, I do not want to reject somebody who God has accepted. And that is why I love them. At least from what I perceive, this local Baptist church seems to me to strive to follow God in their everyday life. Perhaps some may still find it difficult to accept me, but so were I, I guess several years ago...

I am not for denominations. I believe God has no contract with chruch organisations but rather with people - so just because you are part of a movement / denomination that started out with God in a revival, that does not mean that God has a contract with your denomination (i.e. "I will be with 'Holiness Chruch', 'First Baptist Chuch' or whatever the name... till the end of the world).

@TMK - Yea, I too love how they expound the Bible and dive in it. There are also some among the Pentecostals who do likewise . But (I hope) with time, I learn to rejoice at everybody who is a disciple of Christ, whatever the camp. Cause "those who are born of the Spirit are children of God". :)

So, I go to a baptist church. My mission trips to Kenya have been with an Assemblies of God ministry. When we had a Discipleship Now weekend, we invited a well-loved, well-trusted charismatic couple to teach the students. Just yesterday, we arrived from a Men's Conference hosted by a charismatic church. Are there doctrinal differences? Yes. Are there questions on both sides? Yes. Do some of the more baptist-leaning men in our church grapple with tongues, declarations, etc? Yes. So what do we do? We fellowship! We dialogue about our differences. We hold those men with whom we've been fellowshipping in honor because they CLEARLY love Jesus, CLEARLY are yielding to the Spirit when they are teaching, and CLEARLY love us. And you know what? We do the same with them.

There is a lot to be said about the character of a man when discussing doctrinal differences. My pastor, in my own church, does not see eye-to-eye with me on every doctrinal point. But you know what keeps me from even casting a sideways glance at him? His character. The man clearly loves Jesus and loves people. The fruit of the Spirit is evident in his life. That's why I can simply discuss the differences and come away still loving other brothers and sisters who disagree.

Now, if a man had poor character and disagreed with me on doctrines, I would likely not be able to fellowship with him. That being said, if a man agreed with me on EVERY jot and tittle of doctrine, but had poor character I wouldn't be able to fellowship with him either.

havok said:

Now, if a man had poor character and disagreed with me on doctrines, I would likely not be able to fellowship with him. That being said, if a man agreed with me on EVERY jot and tittle of doctrine, but had poor character I wouldn't be able to fellowship with him either.

Amen. Life is a test of character, not knowledge or skill.

//Attend a Baptist service for a period of time, and lets say you get a word from the Lord in tongues. Stand up and give it and let me know what happens. //

That’s a good question- at my Baptist Church it would likely depend on a few things: 1) what is the circumstance (ie is it overly disruptive) 2) who it is that begins speaking 3) is there an interpretation 4) who does the interpretation 5) what is the message- does it square with scripture and is it significant

I have been in charismatic circles where someone comes forth in tongues and usually there have been red flags in all or some of those areas. Very few times have I felt the speaking and the interpretation was legitimate- but when it was it was unmistakeable.

Great discussion so far in my opinion.

The original question was whether friendships between pentecostals and baptists were possible. To me, that is a little bit like asking if friendship between two brothers is possible. But there is a little bit of a caveat to what I just said.

I believe there is coming a day, and very quickly, when the church is going to abandon labels of denominationalism. I believe that to go on with God we are going to have to abandon our own opinions and ideas. There is only one truth, not many. There is only one true interpretation of scripture, not many. God did not inspire His word to mean many different things to many different people. He has a truth, and it behoves me to fall into line with it. I believe that those who choose their own denominational nuance over what God is saying are going to be left at the shrine of man's opinion of God and not move on with God Himself.

That being said, I have seen God moving among people who come from all different denominational backgrounds. I was raised in what is very fundamental and foundational pentecostalism. Yet, I have relationship with many who have been raised in the Christian church and the Baptist church. I have fellowshipped with them, sometimes taught or spoke to them, and sometimes were taught by them. What I noticed is that it is not very hard to tell who had a heart after God Himself, and who is bent on protecting a tradition at the cost of the presence of God.

My wife and I have attended a marriage retreat put on by a man who is very fundamental, and we might even say holiness, baptist. I have seen evidence in his life of the power of the Holy Spirit and have felt the genuine presence of God in the meetings at the retreat. When he was asked about tongues, he was very open and honest. He was careful not to criticize. He simply expressed his understanding and, if I might be blunt, His ignorance of the gift. He had friendly fellowship with a pentecostal church that I was familiar with about 15 minutes from his home and had visited the church. I could see in this man a humility and a desire to have all of God. He was the kind of man that I could fellowship with because of the condition of his heart toward God.

I also had a fellow pentecostal who teaches at the same public school that I teach at who came to my desk to visit one day. He wanted to know what I believed about various topics as he is from a slightly different group of pentecostals than I am. He kept fishing until he found that I did not believe wholeheartedly in a pre-tribulation rapture and the accompanying dispensationalism. To be honest, I had not totally made up my mind where I stood. I felt I did not have a complete enough understanding of scripture to land solidly on one side or the other. He spent the best part of twenty minutes trying to argue me into seeing it His way. When I told Him that I was not settled one way or the other, and was OK with that at the moment, he could not accept it. When I told him I did not think it was an essential doctrine for salvation, he told me it was and that I must see it his way, as his way was the only correct way. True fellowship with this man was impossible. Not because I did not desire it, but because his own heart was not in a place where He could receive and give it.

I believe the heart of man is the key. Forget the label. They are going to disappear very soon in the true church I believe, or at least they are going to lose all significance. But there is coming a unity among true believers that cannot be broken, and it centers around complete surrender, in humility, to Christ. In that place, I see also a unity of doctrine arising on a level that we have not seen before in the American church.

Amen!
Well said brother and I believe your words to be more prophetic than even you imagine regarding the shedding of denominational labels and the truth church/body being revealed...
Perhaps brother Bear is right in that wether as a precedent or as a provocation of... persecution will most likely be a factor in this revealing-

It is sad when we limit our fellowship to those whom share in our pet doctrines not realizing we are passing through and there is more the Lord reveals to us, growing and refining us if we will only open our hearts and listen.

Thanks for your post brother as brother Caleb said, it is a blessing:)

If you are a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, you are my brother, as stated in the verses below taken from Ephesians

"13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far
away have been brought near by the blood of
Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made
the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing
wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his
flesh the law with its commands and regulations.
His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity
out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and
in one body to reconcile both of them to God
through the cross, by which he put to death their
hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you
who were far away and peace to those who were
near. 18 For through him we both have access to
the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners
and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people
and also members of his household, 20 built on
the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with
Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone."

"4 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you
to live a life worthy of the calling you have
received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be
patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make
every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through
the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one
Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when
you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all
and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace has been given as
Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it b says:
"When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.” c
9 (What does "he ascended” mean except that he
also descended to the lower, earthly regions d?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the
whole universe.) 11 So Christ himself gave the
apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors
and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of
service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the
knowledge of the Son of God and become mature,
attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of
Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed
back and forth by the waves, and blown here and
there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning
and craftiness of people in their deceitful
scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love,
we will in all things grow up into him who is the
head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body,
joined and held together by every supporting ligament,
grows and builds itself up in love, as each
part does its work."

This discussion has been a good one, and I appreciate the input that has come through the Body.

I remember back in the early 70’s when many Christians in mainline denominations were getting baptized in the Holy Spirit, and were fellow shipping with believers in other denominations. This was a move of God to bring the Body into unity. However the denominational leaders were the greatest enemy to what God was doing. At this time there were some Baptist pastors that were baptized in the Holy Spirit that were given the left foot of fellowship, and churches were literally divided.

Jesus is building His Church, and it is not a Denomination. Denominations create division, even though many of them were established when certain truths that had been abandoned were being restored to the church.

The unity that God is calling us to is not conformity, just agreeing with each other in order to get along with each other.

We would do well to give heed to the following scriptures as Brother William mentioned:

"Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord,one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:3-6)

I used to pray with a group of guys in a coffee shop on Wednesday nights. The guy who ran the coffee shop (also in the group) would close it at 7pm and we’d pray in there.

In the group, there were 2 or 3 ultra charismatics ("prophetic stream”), a couple more conservative charismatics, one very conservative and wary charismatic (me), a Baptist pastor who leaned charismatic and a couple of strong non charismatic men of God.

It was an extremely powerful time of prayer I think because of the diversity. We all knew where each other stood but that did not matter and no one judged.

After a couple of months of meeting I had a very vivid dream, one of two or three that I know without doubt was directly from the Lord. I may have shared it before but here it is:

As the dream began I was walking into what I describe as a gymnasium. It may not have been a gym but it was a large open room like that. As I entered through the doors, Charles was sitting on a high stool to my left. I am not sure exactly what he was doing or what his function was, but I knew that he was in a vital position. I said "Hi Charles” and walked on in.

I noticed several people ahead, all on the left side of this room. If you
imagine a basketball court, everyone was to left side of the out of bounds line but there were no bleachers. First, I saw Dave L. on one knee ministering to someone who was sitting on the ground. I am not sure if he was sharing the gospel or praying for a healing, but I sensed intensity.

Mark S and Dana were further ahead involved in some sort of activity””I believe they were moving a long table together in preparation for some ministry purpose. I remember there was joy on their faces and it made me smile.

Todd R. was in character, sort of flitting around from person to person
encouraging or assisting in some way.

There may have been more people in the room, but I cannot remember specifically who was there. But my sense was that there was a lot of activity, but at the same time it was very serene and orderly.

Then I sat in a chair kind of to the left of where Dave L. was talking to that
gentleman. I heard Dave say "This is the best song I have ever heard” and he handed me a sheet of paper with lyrics to a song on it. I knew
he meant "worship song" but he didn't say that specifically. The only thing I
can remember about these lyrics was that the word "Eden” was in there. I wish I could remember more about that.

But the most powerful part of the dream is that when I took that piece of paper and started looking at it, the overwhelming presence of God came over me in such a powerful way. I mean I couldn’t breathe, I couldn’t speak, and I couldn’t continue reading. I don’t know if you have ever felt really excited about something or really felt the presence of God where you are shaking internally””almost like really strong shivers””but that is what I was feeling.

The most important, and encouraging part about this dream is this: the sense that I got was that there was holiness in this room because of the men that were in it. God was saying to me that I was fortunate to know these men; because where they are He will also be in a mighty way. I want to stress that I know that the reason I felt that overwhelming presence of the Lord was because of the men who were in the room, and what was going on in the room.

When I related this dream to my prayer group one of them reminded me that Eden means "delight””” I had heard that before but had forgotten. That was the exact sense of the dream- that God was delighted that this diverse group of men were committed to meeting with Him on a regular basis.

Wow! Beautiful awesome testimony Todd!

God bless,

Amen!!!
Where two are three are gathered+:)

How true it is when we lay down ourselves (petty differences/agendas) and put on Christ, His kingdom comes and His will is done~

Very blessed by your sharing this!

Appolus,

The OP said,

"here am I once again with a question: What do you think about "interdenominational friendships", in this case about a friendship between Pentecostals and Baptists?

I am "P", although I prefer to describe myself as a follower of Christ. In my town I met some Baptists sharing tracts and started to talk with them, visited several times their church and I somehow love them. I do understand that we have doctrinal differencies (i.e. on praying in tongues) but... If they are truly children of God, is there something wrong or dangerous in having fellowship with them, too? Or is there a danger that I "fall from the faith" and be drawn by doctrines of men?

Yours in Christ, E."

I think my response addresses an aspect of this question.

I do feel you are right about a lot of baptist churches, but you aren't right about all of them. Baptist does not equal anti-charismatic. I know, because I go to a baptist church that has charismatic members. Some members do pray in tongues. We know of no one in our midst who has the gift of interpretation. So that is probably why no one has given a word in tongues. But I will tell you this, the Spirit has given plenty of good words in English.

Again, I want to emphasize that I do believe you are right about a lot of baptist churches here in the south. But I want to also emphasize that I go to an SBC that you are not right about.

Did you know the NAMB, run by the SBC has recently (within the past years) relaxed their restriction on tongues? I believe they will relax it further as time goes on. So much of what makes baptists baptists is reactionary theology. Sometimes we react well. Sometimes we go too far. It's all a learning process, brother. As long as we've got our eyes fixed on Jesus, He'll bring us center.

I will tell you this, there is a great danger when baptists make charismatic friends or visa versa--danger for the kingdom of darkness. The enemy doesn't like it when we love one another and lay our lives down for one another.

Some really great and lovely responses! I thank God and praise Him for that! :)

I am really glad to realise that what I found good, is not some kind of "falling from the faith" or becoming colder etc. To be honest I think even that if it is possible to unite these two groups and all other people who REALLY follow the Lord and are born from above, it would be just wonderful, amazing and powerful. One day Christ will gather all His sheep and there will be the most glorious Bride ever - the Church, the greatest wedding of all times is yet to happen! Praise the Lord!

What I see as a problem in my local church, and generally in churches of all sorts - is TRADITION. Somehow for men it is easier to get attached to a custom, a habit. Not that it is a bad thing to have habits, it is even very profitable if they are good ones. But after some time, people remember the habit and not the reason why they do what they do. And out of this come "doctrines of men" because we are trying to preserve the way things always were but without the power of God. (Correct me if I am wrong.)

But... is it not the will of God to cleanse us from these things?! I think even that these theme goes beyond personal friendships and fellowship. It has also something to do with our vision of God moving here. Do I want just to fill my pew, do I want numbers, do I want to prove to others that I have the most right doctrine and my church is best. Or do I want to see God move among his people and revive them, and bring people to himself - even if it does not fill MY church? Do I seek His glory, or mine (or that of my denomination)? Do I seek to teach people the fear of God, or pass on only tradition? "They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules" (Isaiah 29:13)

Travis, I agree with what you said, and await the day of our union. Do we really need persecution to bring us there?! I think no. But in times of severe persecution that happens. May God open our hearts and purge us (John 15:2)

Thank you all for your input! You are free to share more, if you want. :)

God bless you!

With Jesus all things are possible.

We at the S.I discussion group are a perfect microcosm of the Church.

Denominationalism will never die, we ( all of us) are as entrenched in what we believe, because we believe we have the truth. To some, that's too much to swallow. But think for a moment with me.

We are saying we need revival, we are saying denominations are not God's perfect plan, we are saying unity is important and biblical. I agree wholeheartedly.

How is it we can make such a claim "the Church is not where it should be, denominations are walls, we need to be cleansed of traditions of men."
Upon what basis to we make these claims? Is it because God has directly told you, are you now an apostle to the Church?
Or, is it because it is a growing consensus among those at SI discussion forum? Or is it because your Church thinks we need revival and denominations are bad? Where do you put your trust in making these declarations?

Most of us will say "we believe these things because God's word instructs us"

But haven't you disallowed your personal beliefs as a viable means of seeking revival or unity or tradition-rejection?

Some might say...when did we do this? Every time you run into a discussion you do not like, disagreements that rub you the wrong way, you abandon what the scriptures say and resort to the pattern of the world that says "that's the way you believe, but we don't, therefore you cannot claim you have the truth"

You fail to see that when you decide biblical truth that is strongly represented from one-side or another must be poopooed and silenced. Why? Because it does not reflect your point of view. Yet, out of the other-side of your mouths you take up the cause you feel is worthy, you feel is right, you feel is biblical and write posts telling everyone else how right it is we seek revival or seek unity or seek bible-based preaching.

We are the very thing we anathematize, we are the epitome of do as I say, not as I do.

Denominations are no where near a death bed, namely because for one, they will not receive from some what they believe to be error, the other because their primary truth is 'neither side has the truth', therefore both sides are in error. In both cases the boundary lines are drawn, the walls are up and the truth is not what's at stake, its our own personal preferences.

How do you get past a post that challenges you like this?
Ignore it, knowing you have the truth.

It is because of 1 Corinthians 1, brother. We are commanded to be united. So, knowing that there are doctrinal differences, and knowing that we are commanded to be united, knowing that that are issues difficult to grapple with, we seek to walk in the perfect love of Jesus Christ. We seek to exalt him in our love one for another. We seek His face by laying aside questions that cause division until the appropriate time of peaceful reconciliation.

That is what many of us here at SI are striving for. I know that I don't agree with every brother and sister here on everything. I know that I don't. That's not even a question. But I am commanded to love my brothers and sisters--so when I am grappling with what that looks like in practice, seeking the Lord and submitting to Him, I will not be put to shame.

My sin is ever before me, but I will not be condemned or called out for attempting to love my brothers. Not by the enemy or anyone else. Our calls for unity, revival, and looking past differences for the sake of the Gospel are, indeed, Biblical. There's not even a question there. Love covers a multitude of sin, as it says more than once in the Scriptures.

I will admit, I have indeed been guilty of railing when I should have shut my mouth. But that is not going to keep me from seeking to do what is right after I have repented. There is no condemnation for me. None.

The world recognizes us by our love for one another, not our ability to convince others of error.

Marvin, is your post personally directed to me? Cause I don't understand what are you saying, where I have called denominations "death beds" or where I have been guilty in acting in the way you describe.

I will reread your post, but please - Is it directed to me? To all?
Thanks!

Hi Takeupthecross:

I was speaking general, and as such if the shoe doesn't fit, don't try to wear it.

I didn't say denominations where a death bed, I said "denominations are no where near a death bed"

My post was directed to confront the trivialization of another beliefs; and secondly, to remind everyone that when you claim others don't have the truth because you disagree with it or its unpopular among the members, has no bearing upon its truthfulness. The sword that cuts down my beliefs cuts down theirs as well. No one called such a thing into question since it was couched in 'preserving unity' but the sword still cuts away at their own pet doctrines or 'truth' I decided to take that trivialization and skepticism and apply it to what is important to so many on the S.I forum. Needless to say the responses were nil.

The final point is whatever verbiage is being posted as to unity, it falls apart when someone challenges a consensus of beliefs among the posters.

For some, it might be that silence or conformity is what unity is about, but this is the heart of denominationalism and sectarianism, its about ending discussions, not about learning and listening to the opposite side.

I am not here to force my views on anyone and haven't attempted to do so, but I do recognize when the hills they will die on are not questioned, but someone else's, if they stand to their beliefs, they are equated with divisions, strife, quarrelsomeness. This again is denominational walls where labeling the dissenter is much easier than actually thinking about what is said.

As I said we are what we preach against, I included myself as I too have no corner on perfection.

If we can see this in ourselves it easy to see where corrections can begin, and where a conciliatory spirit can be very helpful. If we cant see this in ourselves we will never find unity, we will find compromise, error and confusion because we surrendered truth when we should have surrendered unity. Truth by nature is a corrosive to error, it eventually exposes it's weakness and inevitable failure.
Unity with deception and unity with compromise has a dozen examples in the Old Testament all of them end badly.

Marvin, I'm guessing you probably don't have a Readers Digest in layman's term version of your last post, since layman's terms for you are probably as far as the east from the west. :-)

Marvin said "I am not here to force my views on anyone and haven't attempted to do so". Well lets just agree to disagree on that statement, heck none of us here are guilty of that.. :-)

Marvin if you are referencing our discussions re points of reformed/non-reformed doctrine, I submit that the two sides can quite admirably dwell in unity as brothers and sisters. At my prior church, I dearly loved various brothers who were very reformed and also excellent teachers. I kept my mouth shut there. I figured if I wanted to find a non-reformed church I could do so. But the teaching was so strong there in general that we loved it. I taught there as well but I never taught contrary to what the church would teach- actually it never came up in the classes I taught at least not explicitly.

The church I attend now I would say leans strongly reformed, based on some statements by the two guys who teach our bible study class (who are both excellent teachers). I don't feel the need to chime in my 2 cents where I disagree. I have no desire to "rock the boat."

This however is a discussion forum and it doesn't function exactly like a church that meets in person. That's because people are really not their exact self in here as opposed to out there. In here I will argue a point-- out there I rarely do.

But I think I agree with you that arguing a point does not mean that unity is destroyed. The two can co-exist- although sometimes it does seem to be by a thread.

Brother Havok:

I know what your getting at and there is no condemnation coming from me. I was simply challenging an assumption that no one questioned.

What you mentioned are hills you will die on, I believe they are worth dying on...because you believe them to be scripture revealed to you and now see their importance. I am no different in the way I think, the only difference lay in the choice of scripture. You cannot negate truth by way of claiming its controversial or divisive. What this means is "I will not listen, I will not prove what I believe, I will simply claim anyone who raises the subject as divisive and without unity, prayer or peacefulness".

Is this not the heart of division itself?

I am not contesting the truth of what you believe regarding unity, I am contesting that peacefulness and unity are not necessarily removed by reason of debate, they are removed because of offense, at the base of it all (rhetorically speaking) is not what is true, it's what I feel about me, you and what others think.
So, the best way to rid ourselves of this discomfort is to silence anything the consensus deems divisive. This is sectarianism in it's purest form, it forbids the entry of truth in favor of peace and unity among the tribe.

When is the appropriate time? I would venture to say its only when the subject is discussed in such a way that I/you/others have no intent of giving it any heed.

This leads me to something I believe, Denominationalism is a good thing in that it seeks to preserve truth from the innovations of Satan that are always coming down the pike.
It is a bad thing when for the sake of conserving members, status among leaders or its monetary consistency it requires a mere 'subscription' to a set of doctrines that need not be understood, approve or settled in the conscience of the member, it is required because its the 'entrance' to the affiliation.

So, it doesn't matter if its calvy/armin or gifts/no gifts, pretrib or preterism, mass evangelism or one on one evangelism or any other of the many debatable subjects.
What matters is 'our group', our Paul and our Apollos keep their positions and we keep our loyalties intact.

Who would challenge the Deity and Humanity of Christ?
The monophysites, the Sebbelians, the Modal-monarchians, the gnostics, the Patripatassians...all of these were 86'd because they were error. Today, we have Open Theism and even among our ranks here, I could barely hear a whisper of resistance against it. Maybe because unity was at stake?

What you unify with is important, what you unify for is important, who you unify with is telling of what you actually believe in your heart.

Hi Todd, I came against you harder than I have anyone here, yet, in the end, I considered you a brother, someone beloved of God. Though we strongly disagreed, what was more important to some was our strong statements, it was not where we stepped back and said "we love one another in spite of our differences".

I have unity built in to a true brother in Christ, he is born of God and so am I, therefore when strong disagreements occur and they do, I am called to love my brother "in knowledge", meaning I have moved away from sentimental 1/2" thick love to something deeper and crucifying to my flesh.

Denominational boundaries exist because sentimental non-committed love never challenges our motives, our actual intent and words to another brother, all just stays very plastic and artificial. We are safe, we are secure and we are assured by our own tribe we are right. I am reformed, we reformed have made an art of this kind of thing. We stink as bad as any other party when we treat 'non-reformed' as second class, second rate, ignorant, simple minded or with some, calling them unsaved. It's a stench and we own it.

Okay

http://babylonbee.com/news/christian-denominations-set-to-settle-disputes-in-annual-hunger-games/

Does anyone disagree that this will not solve all our problems?

The biggest problem I see here 99% of the time is, everyone wants to be a teacher. What ever happened to just sharing the word of God, without everyone having to dissect every scripture, to many teachers and not enough sharers. I get a whole lot more out of someone just posting a scripture, then letting the spirit speak to me personally through that scripture, but by the time it’s dissected, it just creates more confusion for me. It all starts when one person decides that not what that scripture is really saying, then the whole thread starts heading south, of course it will never stop, because we all have egos to satisfy. :-)

"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.” (John 17: 20-26)

The prayer of Jesus Christ in John 17 expresses the heart of God that all of the family of God would be one even as Jesus is in the Father, and the Father is in Jesus. The same love that the Father has for the Son is in every born again child of God. The greatest witness of the church of Jesus Christ to the world will be believers truly loving one another and being of the same mind in one accord.

Bill-

Your point is well-taken.

The scripture that came to my mind since this thread started is:

Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud””even your own brothers! 1 Cor. 6:7-8

I know this is in the context of lawsuits among believers, but the phrase "why not rather suffer wrong" keeps surfacing in my mind. Greg brings this up all the time- about just letting the other person have the last word.

At the same time, there are different ways of seeing things, and I have learned from how others see things.

Its a balance, and sometimes I do go way yonder to far on one side of the see-saw.

Life Worthy of the Gospel
27Whatever happens, as citizens of heaven live
in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then,
whether I come and see you or only hear about
you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm
in the one Spirit, c striving together with one accord
for the faith of the gospel 28without being frightened
in any way by those who oppose you. This is
a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that
you will be saved””and that by God. 29For it has
been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to
believe on him, but also to suffer for him, 30since
you are going through the same struggle you saw
I had, and now hear that I still have.

Imitating Christ’s Humility
2 Therefore if you have any encouragement
from being united with Christ, if any comfort
from his love, if any common sharing in the
Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then
make my joy complete by being like-minded,
having the same love, being one in spirit and of
one mind. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or
vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others
above yourselves, 4not looking to your own interests
but each of you to the interests of the others.
5In your relationships with one another, have
the same attitude of mind Christ Jesus had:
6 Who, being in very nature d God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be used to his own
advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature e of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a human
being,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death””
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest
place
and gave him the name that is above
every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should
bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the
earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus
Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
a 13

Amen, StirItUp.

This type of thinking flies in the face of so many attitudes we promote in the church. We should be the type of men and women who delight in the exaltation of others and the humility of our own selves. We should be the type of people who defer to others and not our own selves. We should be the type of people who give PREFERENCE to others in honor, counting them as more important than our own selves.

This isn't a competition. Rivalry among believers is a death sentence for the church.

Think of the position that Jesus left! Think of the power He had! Think of what He could have done while on earth! Doesn't it make you tremble to think that the God of the universe walked among us--to SERVE us? He didn't wipe us out! Instead, He served us and loved us and gave Himself for us, and yet many won't give one another even a fraction of that self-sacrifice.

I remember back in the early 70’s when many Christians in mainline denominations were getting baptized in the Holy Spirit, and were fellow shipping with believers in other denominations. This was a move of God to bring the Body into unity. However the denominational leaders were the greatest enemy to what God was doing. At this time there were some Baptist pastors that were baptized in the Holy Spirit that were given the left foot of fellowship, and churches were literally divided.

I know this is a little bit off the subject, but we all must realize, especially those who are in eldership or pastors, that the church is not ours and that people do not belong to us. We continually urge people who visit our fellowship to pray and find the place God has called them. If it is with us, great. If it is not, then we don't want them disobeying God. We only steward the part of His body that He has given us to steward. No more, no less.

One thing that may have some bearing is this:

I enjoy discussing/debating certain theological topics. It seems that those who enjoy it are drawn into the more "discussed" topics.

I don't really have an outlet to discuss theology; my wife doesn't enjoy it (she says I think too much) and I moved away from friends I talked to on a regular basis.

In a sense it's a "hobby" which of course is why I have so many posts (but still only averages to 2.03 per day). Ha!

Excerpt from "The Church and the Work" by Watchman Nee -

The Basis of Union and Division:

"What then is right? All exclusiveness is wrong: all inclusiveness (of true children of God) is right. Denominations are not scriptural, and we ought to have no part in them, but if we adopt an attitude of criticism, and think, They are denominational, I am undenominational; they belong to sects, I belong to Christ alone - such differentiating is definitely sectarian.

Yes, praise God I am of Christ, but my fellowship is not merely with those who say, "I am of Christ," but with all who are of Christ. What is of vital importance is not the confession, but the fact. Although other believers say they are of Paul, of Cephas and of Apollos, yet in fact they are of Christ. I do not mind what they say, but I very much mind what they are. I do not enquire whether they are denominational or undenominational, sectarian or unsectarian. I only enquire, are they of Christ? If they are of Christ, then they are my brethren.

Our personal standing should be undenominational, but the basis of our fellowship is not undenominationalism. We ourselves should not be sectarian, but we dare not insist on non-sectarianism as a condition of fellowship. Our only ground of fellowship is Christ. Our fellowship must be with all of the believers in a locality, not merely with all the unsectarian believers in that locality. They may make denominational differences, but we must not make undenominational requirements. We dare not differentiate between ourselves and others. They are the children of God, and because they make distinctions between themselves and other children of God, they do not on that account cease to be the children of God. Their denominationalism or sectarianism will mean that severe limitations are imposed upon the Lord as to His purpose and mind for them, and this will mean that they will never go beyond a certain measure of spiritual growth and fullness. Blessings there may be, but fullness of Divine purpose, never."

Todd said...”I enjoy discussing/debating certain theological topics. It seems that those who enjoy it are drawn into the more "discussed" topics”.

Todd, I personally totally understand you. The issues I’ve seen here is, they all start out great, until you have 5 people with a different opinion show up, and all are adamant about their opinion. Todd, you’ve been here long enough to have witnessed many, many threads that go south, because everyone wants to be a pitcher and not a catcher. To be honest, I don’t believe there’s an answer to keep some of these heated discussions from going south. The flesh is tough, the conflict with the flesh is one of the most hostile wars we will ever fight as a Believer. Most Believers learn the hard way, that their flesh is fighting mad and is out to destroy their life, I personally fight this battle everyday.

Very true Bill.

Usually when the discussions "go south” it doesn’t bother me personally (ie I am not offended if the fire is directed at me- it usually is!); HOWEVER the fact that it bothers other people who may be reading is enough to try to prevent it from happening.

Y'all got something against the south!?

No me! Look at my location... :-) "Going South" is a term a lot of southern folks use, when things stop edifying, and start heading downward.

Brothers,

I have found that when we are having a good, friendly discussion on a subject, not necessarily all agreeing, but having honor for one another, that the best approach to a ugly and divisive post is to ignore it, and keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

I know Brother, I was just teasing :p

Brother Greg wrote:

"But the question is, does Christ dwell in you by His Spirit? It does not matter whether you are pentecostal or baptist for that question I believe.”

Amen.

Travis wrote:

"But there is coming a unity among true believers that cannot be broken, and it centers around complete surrender, in humility, to Christ.”

Amen!

Some thoughts:

THIS IS WHAT A CHRISTIAN IS:

In Christ

Eph. 1:6 (KJV) ”“
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Joined to Christ and fruitful IN Christ

Rom. 7:4 ”“
that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

John 15:5 ”“
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

John 5:8 ”“
My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

Comment:
Discipleship is proven by fruit bearing and fruit bearing is not possible without the vital union with Christ.

Christ in us, our glory

Col. 1:26-27 ”“
that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

John 17:22-26 --
The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.

Conformed to the image of Christ

Gen. 1:26 ”“
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness……

Col. 3:10-11 ”“
……… put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him -- a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

2 Cor. 3:18 ”“
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Having in us the eternal and incorruptible life of Christ

1 John 2:25 ”“
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

John 1:4 ”“
In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

1 John 5:11-12 ”“
And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

2 Tim. 1:8-10 ”“
…… God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Comment:
The word "immortality” is more accurately translated "incorruptibility”.
English Revised Version:
"but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and incorruption to light through the gospel,”
HELPS Word Studies:
Cognate: 861 aphtharsía ”“ properly, no-corruption (unable to experience deterioration); incorruptibility (not perishable), i.e. lacking the very capacity to decay or constitutionally break down.
T. Austin-Sparks:
"Jesus Christ... abolished death, and brought life and incorruption to light through the gospel". It is the quality of the life, the inherent and intrinsic nature of the life that He has brought to light, that is the incorruptible thing. He ANULLED death, not just only non-existence, but destroying the essential nature of death which is corruption. Life and incorruption, in the way in which the Apostle links them here, are one thing. Incorruption is the nature of the life.

Comment:
Eccl. 1:2 ”“ "Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher, "Vanity of vanities! All is vanity."
That is the life of fallen men……all is utter emptiness!
1 Pet. 1:24 -- All flesh is like grass, and all the glory of it like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls away………
In toil we eat of a ground that is cursed all the days of our lives. By the sweat of our face we eat bread till we return to the ground. For we are dust and to dust we shall return (Gen.3:17-19).
The Lord Jesus came to abolish all that. He came to give us a life that is eternal, indestructible and incorruptible; a life that can never fail or decay or vanish away. He came that we "may have life, and have it abundantly” (John 10:10). He came to give His own unimaginably glorious life to us.
John 4:13-14 -- Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

---------------------

CHRIST IS IN US THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT IN US:

John 14:16-17 ”“
I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 14:20””
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

Comment:
"that day” i.e. that day when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the believer forever.

Comment:
The proof of the Holy Spirit in us is Christ revealed in us by the Holy Spirit.

--------------------

THE HOLY SPIRIT IN US:

2 Cor. 6:16 ”“
For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them, and will walk among them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people."

1 Cor. 6:19 --
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Ezek. 36:26-27, 36 ”“
Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances……I, the LORD, have spoken and will do it.

Gal. 3:14 ”“
……we……receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

\t
John 1:12-13 (YLT) ”“
but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God ”“ to those believing in his name, who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten.

Gal. 3:26-28 ”“
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal. 4:6 ”“
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

1 Cor. 12:13””
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Comment:
I hold that all true believers are baptized/immersed in the Holy Spirit whether or not they have a special and wonderful manifestation of the Holy Spirit’s filling.
Also, it is the fruits of the Spirit and not the gifts of the Spirit that is the mark of a Spirit-filled Christian.

1 Cor. 12:7-11 ”“
But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

1 Cor. 12:29-30 ”“
All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

Matt. 7:20 ”“
So then, you will know them by their fruits.

Gal. 5:22-23 ”“
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Comment:
The proof of the Holy Spirit in us is shown in "the love of God …… poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us” (Rom. 5:5).

---------------------

THE FINAL CRITERIA:

FAITH, HOPE AND LOVE

1 Cor. 13:13 (YLT) ”“
and now there doth remain faith, hope, love -- these three; and the greatest of these is love.

1 John 4:7-8 ”“
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

1 John 4:16 -- God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

Gal. 5:65 ”“
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

1 John 3:23-24 ”“
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The name of the Lord Jesus:

Ex. 3:13-14 ”“
Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

John 8:58 ”“
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

2 Sam. 7:12-13 ”“
When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

Eph. 2:19-22 ”“
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Comment:
We are a dwelling place for Christ, the great I AM. We are a dwelling place for His infinitely great and glorious name. We are a dwelling place for His life, His love, His power, His wisdom, His righteousness, His holiness, His redemption, His peace, His joy, His comfort, His healing, His provisions, etc., etc. We are a dwelling place for the riches of Christ which are unfathomable (Eph. 3:8).

Gal. 2:20 (YLT) ”“
with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;

Ps. 9:10 ”“
And those who know Your name will put their trust in You……

Luke 8:18 ”“
…… when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"

Heb. 11:6 ”“
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

John 1:12 (YLT) ”“
but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name,

John 11:40 ”“ Jesus said to her, "Did I not say to you, if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

Col. 1:27 ”“
……Christ in you, the hope of glory.

2 Cor. 5:17 (Berean Literal Bible) ”“
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, the new has come into being.

Gal. 6:15 ”“
For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Eph. 3:14-19 ”“
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

JESUS ONLY

2 Cor. 4:6 ”“
For God who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness, is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Matt. 17:8 (YLT) ”“
and having lifted up their eyes, they saw …… Jesus only.

Ps. 40:16 ”“
Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You;
Let those who love Your salvation say continually,
"The LORD be magnified!"

I remember back in the early 70’s when many Christians in mainline denominations were getting baptized in the Holy Spirit, and were fellow shipping with believers in other denominations. This was a move of God to bring the Body into unity. However the denominational leaders were the greatest enemy to what God was doing. At this time there were some Baptist pastors that were baptized in the Holy Spirit that were given the left foot of fellowship, and churches were literally divided.

The Lord revealed to me a while back that if a person (non-tongue speaker) likes a friend (tongue speaker), they will accept God's gifts in their friend's life whether they are Baptist or not. And I found that to be true in my life.

I'm thinking that has something to do with fellowship, maybe the communion of the saints or something like that! :)

God is truly faithful,
Lisa

Brothers and sisters,

This may be splitting hairs, but......

are we friends or brothers and sisters in Christ?

Friends can be platonic.

We are commanded to love one another as Christ loved us, deeply, sacrificially, sincerely, in deed and truth

Blessings,

The world defines friends as merely a platonic relationship. The Bible defines it differently.

Proverbs says there is a friend that sticks closer than a brother.

Jesus said there is no greater love than a man lay down his life for his friends.

I hear you brother, but we are called to be brothers and sisters in God's family, as well as members of the same spiritual body.
Friendships can easily be dissolved or broken but family is forever, whether we realise it or not :)

That's why all these different denominations etc is actually a sad indictment of the church.

Blessings,

I am not sure it really has to be one or the other, why not both? Why not both, Biblically? Our relationships in this world are all fallen, even familial ones. In our fallen state, none of them are a perfect picture of Christ, the Church, or any of those things.

But we know what Biblical family--the way the Lord created it to be--looks like, and it is perfectly acceptable to model our relationships with other believers after that.

We also know that Biblical friendships (Jonathan and David as an excellent example) are not dissolvable. We know that when God called Abraham His friend, that it didn't come with a bunch of conditions. Same with Jesus and His disciples.

Friendships and familial relationships and marriage relationships all contain aspects to them that honor God and teach us good things about what it means to be a church.

Currently, in this discussion, we are emphasizing the friend part of the church body, but I definitely agree that we shouldn't ignore the familial.

by havok20x
Proverbs says there is a friend that sticks closer than a brother.

Jesus said there is no greater love than a man lay down his life for his friends.

What I believe now is when my sister offends me or hurts me, when my brother has said something very cross or even my spouse, that there is no greater love than me laying down my life (my response, my opinion on the matter, my jealousy, my offense), for my friends (family also) and just loving them no matter what.

Then they see that there truly is a friend that sticks closer than a brother! And that would be Christ in me, the hope of glory!!! We must die to ourselves (laying down our life) for our friends and family.

Just my two cents!! :)
God is faithful!!!
Lisa

Brothers and sisters,

I follow the thread and read through your posts with great interest. But I am not able to answer each post (and I do not find it necessary). This discussion has been imo very productive, and may God bless you for your input! :)

@AbideinHim

They are the children of God, and because they make distinctions between themselves and other children of God, they do not on that account cease to be the children of God.

Exactly! And that's one of the reasons why I want to strive to love all children of God, no matter if they are of the same denomination like me or not. Denominations is a broad theme but I would briefly add the following: every genuine movement of God could later turn into something "denomination-like". I think that's the way many of the denominations came into being (correct me, if I am wrong).

Non-denominational churches tend to have sometimes (at least from my experience) also the taste of "denominationalism". So if you take for example the "local churches" - their way of worship is very specific for "the local churches". The problem is, I think, not so much in the name of the Church - as in the way how we understand and practice brotherly love.

@StirItUp

This may be splitting hairs, but...... are we friends or brothers and sisters in Christ?

I think havok20x adressed your question very well. We are both family (with all children of God) and friends (with some). But let me give you some background to my question and you will understand perhaps why I asked so.

I currently go to a Pentecostal church in another town (40-50km away from mine).That's not because I have specifically sought for "Pentecostal" church. I've been to several churches in my town and did not want to remain there because imo, shortly said, I was doing myself spiritually speaking more harm than good. Then I learned about that church from a sister, who goes in similar church in her town. And I've been going there since Feb 2017. (btw these are russian-german congregations).

One day in February, I was out with my sister in the city and while we were walking, I saw posters with Bible verses and people who share tracts. We walked by them and I noticed they were not JW, so I decided to take a tract and talk a little bit with them. It turned out they were Baptists and they invited me to their youth meeting the same day. We went and had really wonderful fellowship. Since then I've been to their meetings several times, although I continue to go regularly to the meetings of my church.

Since then I've tried to talk with brothers and sisters (from the Pentecostal "camp") about fellowshiping with Baptists. And some are very reserved, others go to extremes. But somehow I hear about similar reactions from the Baptists. Now, I do not know how is it in USA, but here in Germany (and perhaps especially among some russian-german churches) there is almost something like enmity: Baptists forbidding believers in their congregations to even talk with Pentecostals; claims that tongue-speaking is devilish; thoughts that non-tongue-speakers cannot go to heaven; requierements to proclaim that tongue-speaking is not of God etc. - these are the things that I have heard of. Shocking!

So my question came like: if I go closer to these people, and visit their church often (cause it is in my city) - would it be harmful to my faith. Can they be my friends or I must keep distance? (Some worry that they could drag me into false teachings, especially when we speak about baptism of the Holy Ghost). Would it be harmful for me and my spiritual walk if I go to both churches as times allows me and make friends with believers from both churches?

You know what StirItUp, it is easy to say "We are all brothers and sisters", while everybody remains in 'his house' where he feels comfortable. But I ask myself sometimes: Do I love somebody, even in my local church, so much that I would be ready to give my life for them? How can you love somebody you do not really know? And how can you "lay down your life for your friends", if you never in the first place befriend certain people (in this case Baptists)?

I personally believe that there are A LOT OF THINGS my local church can learn from this particular Baptist church that I visited. I so much love to see how they "dive into the Word", the teaching and preaching of the Word. And I do realise that neither all Baptist churches, nor all Pentecostal churches are good. Perhaps also not all Baptist would accept me, and some Pentecostals are going to think I am weird...

Anyways, I think the label does not guarentee spirituality but "those who are led by the Spirit are children of God".

"Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his. And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." - 2 Tim 2:19

P.S. Edit to add and correct

Dear sister,

My point is not that we cannot be friends or that friendship is not important. Friendship is usually limited to a few people in our lives, if that many. Even Christ did not share His earthly life equally intimately with everyone.

My actual point is that we forget the labels, the denominational barriers etc and receive each one who calls himself brother and is proven by his confession and practice to be so in truth, no matter where he or she may fellowship.

"3Make
every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through
the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one
Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when
you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6one God and Father of all, who is over all
and through all and in all."

Those who believe and practice by any other rule are in danger of despising the Body of Christ and are not obeying Christ's command that we love one another and thus prove the sincerity of our faith.
There should be no question because:" he who loves has passed from death to life"

He who does not love his brother cannot truly love God or know God...

God bless,

Takeupthecross,

I want to encourage you to read the book, "The Insanity of God" by Nik Ripken. There is a lot in that book that has little to do with this discussion, but there is a WHOLE LOT that has everything to do with it.

You asked, "How can you love somebody you do not really know?"

The love we have one for another has been given to us. It is not a result of knowing one another, but of the Spirit of the Living God making us alive in Him. There is a sense of fellowship and love that is inexplicable that Christians experience for one another, even though they do not know one another. Many believers have given their lives firstly for the Lord and also for the brethren--many of whom they do not know.

Although it is true that there are brothers with whom I am closer than others, I'd lay my life down for even the least of them, not because I have attained to some special spiritual standard, but because of what Jesus has put inside of me--the same thing He has put inside of you.

My actual point is that we forget the labels, the denominational barriers etc and receive each one who calls himself brother and is proven by his confession and practice to be so in truth, no matter where he or she may fellowship.

Amen, somebody! :D Absolutely agree with you!

There is a sense of fellowship and love that is inexplicable that Christians experience for one another, even though they do not know one another.

You are right. And Jesus Christ does not call us to lay down our life for the spiritually grown up brothers and sisters, but even for "one of the least of these my brethren". Perhaps everybody would lay their life for the pastor, the elders, the strong in the faith. But even the least one is your brother / sister and you should him/her in the same manner. And isn't this the love that will shock the world?!

Praise the Lord for the Church of Christ, the Bride of the Lamb and for the Love that the Lord pours out in our hearts!

Thank you all for this very encouraging discussion!