Can you answer this?

Forgive me for answering with a question, but..

Why did He choose Judas?

I think the fact that God IS all powerful and omniscient (and we are not) will limit our ability to comprehend from the get-go.

I think God knew that He could still be sovereign and have his purposes fulfilled in spite of Lucifer, Judas, Antichrist etc.

It's still worthwhile to Him.

That God has tolerated the presence of Satan until now demonstrates at least one indisputable fact: God has use for him, or else He would have tossed him into the lake of fire before now. If God has use for a devil, would He not be entitled to create one for His purpose?

Good thought brother!

"If God has use for a devil, would he not be entitled to create one"?

Wow brother, that is sounding very "C.S. Lewis" of you ;)

God bless you,

Maybe it's possible that If there was no devil there would be no fall of grace for mankind. If no fall then no possibility of a restoration process from God where he could have disobedient humans brought into a status of being joint heirs with Christ.
Joint Heirs with a new body incapable of disobeying and willing to love God freely
Because it also has the divine nature.

Something which he couldn't have created before hand (possibly because he doesn't want to force people to love Him). Even the devil when created, was capable of falling from grace. It never had Gods divine nature.

by emestiu
When God created Satan/Lucifer, does He not know that the angel He created will rebels against Him, will tempt Adam and Eve and will caused a cursed earth and humankind. And now the result of it is dying and hurting world, many people are in Hell now also with no escape.

My two cents!
Lisa

Sister Emestiu,

You wrote "GOD is all powerful and omniscient, He knows the future.

When God created Satan/Lucifer, does He not know that the angel He created will rebels against Him, will tempt Adam and Eve and will caused a cursed earth and humankind. ”

Just going on how you founded/framed your question- would that not also mean that God tempted Eve?

If not, how is it not?

Jn 1:3 All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.

Rev 4:11 Our Lord and God, You are worthy to receive glory and honor and power, because You have created all things, and because of Your will they exist and were created HSB

Since God knew what would become of Satan, the Angels and Humanity before he created them, he did so in full knowledge of their outcomes and how he would interact with them in all the myriads of thoughts and actions they produce.

In our minds we look at something we did or made that turned out to be a disaster, something to be ashamed of.
(at least I have). But God in his perfect wisdom, his absolute holiness and righteousness creates what he created with purposes and plan in mind that we were not designed to comprehend or apprehend. It takes faith that God is who he says he is in the face of incomprehensible horrors and sins.
It takes faith to express the love of God in the presence of tragedy and pain.

The only way to overcome what we see in this world of sin and corruption is to look and apprehend by faith the promise of God, that we as his beloved are safe and loved in his secure grasp.

His plans and purposes will be fulfilled, he will be loved by his own beloved, he will get glory by reason of their love and obedience to him, he will get glory and renown for his righteous judgments upon men and angels.

Moral judgments about the will and purpose of Satan are not for us to make, we do not judge God, he judges us. If we believe in Jesus, we commit ourselves to a faithful creator who loved us and gave himself for us. That is sufficient.

As for love toward God, though it is not programmed it is not natural, it is the inworking of the Holy Spirit that gave us birth and made us new creations. Our love is not the product of human will, it is the product of divine indwelling coupled to human-dying-to-self. Whatever love we have toward God is his own life being lived though us. We do truly love, but not without the divine life qualifying it as "love" toward God.

I do not know why God created Lucifer knowing he knows everything from the beginning. Scripture does not tell us so we are left to speculate. Since this is the case I think we do well to leave it there - regarding it as one of the mysteries God choose to not tell us. If he thinks it is wise to not say I think we will be wise to not pursue the issue.

I know people who will work to discredit the existence of God will argue this issue. I suspect they have sin issues they want to justify, defend and if they can discredit the authority of God it will give them a sense of 'peace'.

My understanding.

Sandra

I don't remember reading that in the bible, about satan being good then turning bad. Jesus said he was a murderer from the beginning

It’s not there Tyler- you’re right.

Ezekiel 28:
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

a little background so you can see the spiritual/physical comparisons and note that great king was simply the pawn of a much greater monarch.
http://biblehub.com/topical/t/tyre_or_tyrus.htm

Here is an unembellished summary of the available biblical data:

ӢJesus and John inform us that Satan was evil "from the beginning" (John 8:44/1 John 3:8)

ӢProverbs states that God made everything for Himself...even the wicked for the day of doom (16:4)

ӢThese verses may or may not be addressing the origin of Satan, but if they are, they suggest that God may have created Satan as a divinely-appointed "tester" (the literal meaning of "tempter"), to test His people's loyalty (as He tested Israel with false prophets--Deut.13:1-4).

ӢThough scripture affirms that some angels have fallen (2 Pet.2:4/Jude 6), no scripture anywhere ever states that Satan is or was himself an angel.

ӢIn the poetic language of Ezekiel (which never mentions Satan), the king of Tyre is said to have been a cherub in the garden of Eden (28:13-14). But later, in the poetic language of the same prophet, the Assyrian is said to have been a tree in the garden of Eden (31:3, 9)! Why should one passage be taken more literally than the other?

ӢA few verses earlier than the disputed Ezekiel passage (v.2), the ruler of Tyre is specifically said to be a "man" (not an angel). The statements that the king of Tyre is "full of wisdom," "perfect in beauty" and "perfect in all thy ways" are clear hyperboles, which were used earlier in the book about the city of Tyre itself (27:3, 28:3). This "king of Tyre" was corrupted by "trading" or "merchandise" (v.16), a distinctive of the city of Tyre, but hardly fitting any scenario of the activities of an un-fallen angel in heaven.

ӢLikewise, "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12) is clearly identified as the "king of Babylon" (Isa.14:4) and as a "man" (v.16). The lofty aspirations of "Lucifer" are exactly those of the builders of the Tower of Babel (the origins of Babylon). Lucifer is nowhere identified with Satan in the Bible.

ӢThe fact that Satan was seen by Christ falling "like lightning from heaven" (Luke 10:18) does not tell us anything about Satan's origin. Jesus did not state a timeframe for what He saw, and might well have been seeing prophetically the downfall of Satan which He later describes in John 12:31, and which John describes in Revelation 12:9---both of which seemingly were fulfilled at the cross (cf. Col.2:15/Heb.2:14).

ӢNone can doubt the devil's ability to "be transformed into an angel of light" (2 Cor.11:14), but this does not tell us any more about his actual nature than we can learn about the true character of his ministers from the fact that they "are transformed into ministers of righteousness" (v.15).

Let me ask you this:

What is the practical difference between creating a being whose role would be to tempt man to sin, as well as kill and destroy, vs. creating a being who initially did not do that but who God knew WOULD do that? Now, if you say God did not know that then the dilemma disappears. And if God has no purpose for that being, why does He not get rid of him? There are some things that Christians attribute to God that I do not. I absolutely do not believe God created evil. But God seems to have use for a being that tempts men toward evil. How can we say otherwise? Satan exists.

I have not expressed any thoughts on the origin of satan. Quite frankly I have no idea because there is no scripture that actually tells us, as outlined in the various passages I quoted.

I am not dumb; I realize that the vast majority of Christians believe that satan is a fallen angel but that is only based on the very questionable interpretation of the passages noted.

Satan may very well be a fallen angel, but that is merely conjecture. What difference does it make? He is what he is, whatever that is and we are to resist him with all our might. There is no lack of clarity about that.

ADD: I did not say that God created a being that was evil from the beginning. What I did do was reference a quote from Jesus and a quote from John that says satan was evil from the beginning. What is meant by "beginning” is not 100% clear.

Whoa there Frank- you seem to be attributing things to me that I have not stated. I did not say God created evil, nor have I said He is the author of sin.

In fact I said: "I absolutely do not believe that God created evil.”

How can I be any clearer than that?

I will add that I agree with everything you said about God in your post.

Is it me or do I smell the upcoming false-dilemma arising?

That if you grant God created Lucifer as good in his original state, it can be conjectured God didn't know Satan will fall, thereby offering another entry of Open Theism into the mix?

So, either way God is diminished; either God created evil or God lacks full knowledge of all future events...this is the dilemma the Open Theist or those who favor it will present.

God is not the author of sin, to say that is blasphemy.
God is not lacking in knowledge of anything, to say that is blasphemy.
The dilemma is false, the biblical alternative is found in Ezekiel and Isaiah...which are not mere poetic attributions, but revelations of the Prince of Evil working his designs behind Pagan Kings.

Frank you obviously have an axe that you want to sharpen against me for some reason.

In my 4/20/18 10:32 am post I explicitly stated:

"I absolutely do not believe that God created evil.”

You seem to be ignoring that statement in order to attack something that you think that I have said but have not.

In fact, my pages and pages of railing against certain tenets of reformed theology that gained so much attention recently was because of my jealousy for the character of God, namely his goodness and holiness. Unfortunately I seemed to be alone in that fight, and either people cannot see or refuse to see the damage that doctrine does to God’s character. I believe it is slanderous., and I said so in that long series of posting.

So for you to now say that I am claiming God created evil or causes men to sin is rather astonishing.

I guess I’ll say it again”” I do not believe God created evil nor is he the author of sin.

If that charge can be laid at anybody’s feet it is against the Calvinists. For not only do they hold that God created the vast majority of humans with no ability to seek redemption, he also created an unspeakable place to confine them in for all eternity.

Good grief Frank you must be blind. Did you read my last post?

I guess I'll have to quote myself again. I said:

"I guess I’ll say it again”” I do not believe God created evil nor is he the author of sin."

When I say God did not create evil, that means God did not create evil. He did not create any evil thing, nor did He create any evil being. I thought that was self explanatory but obviously it was not. My bad.

This whole thing started because there was a question whether the Bible clearly teaches that satan is a fallen angel. This is stated nowhere in scripture, so the idea is conjecture, although reasoned conjecture. I happen to personally lean toward the idea that satan is a fallen angel; however once again we are never explicitly told this in scripture and that idea is imported into the texts from Ezekiel and Isaiah. Those texts are problematic because they EXPLICITLY state who is being described and in each case a specific man is being described.

Some people believe that God created a "tester" to test mankind who was initially incorrupt but became corrupted. The only difference from that idea and the traditional idea is that he was never an exalted angel and head of heaven's worship band in this alternative view. But just like the traditional view, this view is not stated in scripture either.

I think some people like the alternative view because there are difficulties trying to figure out how a holy exalted angel in the presence of God with no evil anywhere could have ever rebelled in the first place. Some of the difficult questions:

---If sin presupposes temptation of some sort, who or what tempted a holy angel to sin?
---If an angel could sin without a devil to tempt him, may we not sin without a devil to tempt us? (I have also heard it asked, "if Satan sinned in heaven, how can we be sure WE will not sin in heaven?")
---If an angel was tempted by evil passions, could he have been holy?

Now it is possible that angels are not holy; I always considered angels to be holy but I may not be right about that.

But Frank--to answer your question, yet again, no I do not believe God created evil, or any evil being, or any evil thing.

Here are just some of my old common sense thoughts, I'm thinking God originally created a perfect world, perfect universe, perfect angels, and perfect man (Adam and Eve).
But, due to free will being allowed by God, the perfect Angel (Lucifer) sinned, and everything went south from there, and most everything is still going south, especially this thread. :-)

You’re right about that Bill.

Hey Mr Bill,

What's wrong with going South? You're in Texas aren't ya!

One of my sons went South. We're all considering going South now.

Smart birds go South too!

Even Abram went South;

And Abram went up out of Egypt, he, and his wife, and all that he had, and Lot with him, into the South. Gen. 13:1

What is evil? The absence of good. If God is the only One Good. Who is evil? He who does not believe God. We must depend on Jesus Christ for God has made unto us who believe God, Jesus is made wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. Evil is the absence of God in life of His creation. That in itself is evil, created or uncreated. The Goodness of God Himself has created evil. God did not say this day I will create evil, for anything created is not God.

In Christ: Phillip

Todd: Without rehearsing what was said on an earlier thread, I will make sure I am clear on this.

Todd said:"If that charge can be laid at anybody’s feet it is against the Calvinists. For not only do they hold that God created the vast majority of humans with no ability to seek redemption, he also created an unspeakable place to confine them in for all eternity."

This is bibically inaccurate and slanderous, in that Reformed Christians anathematize such a thought.

Calvinists do not hold that view (taken at face value) alone, all orthodox Christianity holds that view.
Humanity not only will not seek God, and when they do it's to work some angle.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The reading of this text is done everywhere Arminian or Reformed, they acknowledge that man is lost, and he does not seek God, he does not come to Christ
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

In your haste to shift some odious God-authors-sin-charge to the reformed, you have condemned every Arminian who holds that Christ is the only way to God. Why, because good ole arminians believe that the gospel is necessary for conversion, they believe the Spirit of God must convict of sin righteousness and judgment, they believe in the pre-salvation work of God upon a sinner that is requisite for any sinner to believe. In short, They are equally guilty for they too know men have no ability in themselves to save themselves, to answer God with faith or birth themselves by the Spirit of God.

If the sinner does not have the working of God upon their heart they are doomed, they will die in their sins, not because they forsook Christ ( though many have added that sin to their account) but because they are sinners by nature, sinners by action and sinners by will.
God is just...as Paul explicity stated. Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Hell is a reward for the wages of sin, wrath is always upon the sinner and in his hardness and love of sin he will continue in it and justify himself in it.

The culpability lay upon what men are and what men do because of what they are.

God created a lake of fire and he will certainly cast every unbeliever, idolator, liar, fornicator into that lake as a divine judgment upon human and angelic sin.

He could cast you an I into that lake and be fully justified in doing so, we have nothing to recommend ourselves to him, though we may believe him to be merciful, he will not acquit the wicked, he will not defer. It is only by the means he has provided that men are saved.

God has provided the means to save those who have absolutely no recourse, no advocate, no helper, no sacrifice. God provided as Paul goes on to explain in Romans 4-8, if some are not saved, there is no injustice in God for not saving them, their is no injury to his person or accusation that can be fastened upon him. All of God's judgments are just and righteous.

Every Born again Christian realizes this terrible truth, that multitudes of men and women are born into the world as sinners and as sinners they will die and they will know of no blessing, joy or love that was not given of God in this world. But they will endure an eternity of punishment for sins because God derived use for them only while they lived on earth. He was longsuffering because of them, he had long forbearance with them and did not cut them short, though they sinned from youth to old age.

You may think that Calvinists hold some special doctrine that makes God out to be cruel and capricious, but faithful Arminians hold those same truths.

As an aside...I know of no one personally who thinks God is the author of sin, I know of only one Reformed Christian Apologist that explicitly stated such a view, Vincent Cheung. Though wonderful on some levels, he is out to lunch in my opinion about God's authoring sin. But, he is the only one I've read that has stated such.

All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

Evil did not have to be a thing to be created. Evil is because there is none but God who is good. Thus evil exists because God is the only one who is Good. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are all that is Good. He who has the Son Has life, The Life of God in us, "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

All else save God is evil. That is why Jesus Christ in us is the only righteousness, (goodness in us the absence of evil), the way, God can accept us into heaven.

God did not speak evil into creation. His plan to overcome evil is perfect in Christ to overcome evil, which is outside of Himself, and make us the sons of God in Him.

In Christ: Phillip

A little off topic here. Many may disagree with me, but I truly believe they're some things that only God can answer, so if you think you have all the answers to everything, you might be God. I also don't believe God is limited to the word of God in what he wants to do or say. A perfect example is, if we knew all that God does, every miracle he's performed would be listed in the Bible. Why do people put God in the box of only what the Bible says? Remember there was nothing mentioned about Jesus between the ages of 12 and 30, we can only guess what he might have been doing, even today we can only guess what God may be doing.

Yes, we do have the information on what God has "done" in the word, but only in our spirits will we ever know what God is doing today in our lives. Maybe if we all would like to know what God is doing today, some of us should list some of the things he's doing/done in our lives, this sure would make a better topic. Sad thing is, it could still bring out the debaters on why God couldn't have done that in your life, and this is why.

Amen Evangeline!

I take this perspective. The Bible tells us that Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. If this is the case, then God knew ahead of time that Adam would sin and made preparation for it. The same with Lucifer in my opinion.

I believe that love is impossible outside of free will and choice. If my wife had no choice but to love me, then what she is giving me would not be love at all, but merely instinct or programming. This is what separates me from the animals, what makes me human and truly alive. God programmed a chicken and a dog with instinct. He made me with free will and choice. I have every ability to choose Him or deny Him. This is, to me, the foundation of relationship.

God is love. He chose to demonstrate His love for me in that while I was yet in rebellion He sent His Son to die for me. His choice demonstrated to me His love.

Travis-

Do you believe that God is "outside time” and looking in, so to speak?

I believe brother Frank and some others have stated well how God is Love and not the author of evil. Also, that our love to God is what he truly desires of his creation to be willingly.

The thing that I would like to mention is that before Lucifer fell and became the adversary against God and man he was placed very high in rank and beauty as one of the archangels of God. This tells me that the angels were tested first to always obey and love God. Lucifer began to focus on himself and began to lift himself up in pride so God had to bring him down. This changed him into the adversary to work evil against God and the plan that he had for His creation.

Now God created man first with a natural (temporal) body not yet like the angels because he knew man had to overcome Satan (formerly Lucifer) and his temptations. God didn't remove Satan before he made man because he knew man would also have to be tested. He never let man eat of the tree of life in his fallen condition. He had a plan to redeem man from the start so that in the new world everyone will have the nature of the son of God and will be kept eternally by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Yes God created man knowing that he was going to fall but also loving us so much that he paid the price of our redemption so that we would love him forever! God wants his children to love him and do His will. So God went ahead and created Adam a little less than the angels knowing that he would be tempted by the devil (desiring him to overcome the devil) but knowing he would not overcome him but fall into sin. But he also gave birth to the second man (the last Adam) Jesus who did overcome him as a man to make us a new man in Christ by way of his death on the cross and his resurrection.

The desire of God is for man to be an overcomer. We must be overcomers for God desires us to overcome Satan by the blood of the lamb, the word of our testimony and by loving not our lives unto the death. The plan of God is beautiful because before the foundation of the world God so loved the world that he provided a redeemer which is Christ the slain lamb of God for our sins. The redeemed will always love God for the great price that was paid for our salvation.

If God had not had a plan through His Son Jesus then all mankind would have been lost forever and separated from God. We must overcome all the nature of the devil. Thank God we can through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

Blessings to all!

Do you believe that God is "outside time” and looking in, so to speak?

We measure time by days and nights, both created by Him. We think in terms of years, but He also created those. The creator of the mechanism must be outside the mechanism. So yes, I believe He created time and is outside of time. Kind of makes the concept of eternal preexistence a bit more interesting doesn't it?

Frank: I think there is somewhat of a scriptural support for your perspective. Scripture says to be not many teachers, but teachers will be held to a higher standard.

A teacher should be closer to God than those he teaches. I am not talking about an ego driven idea of being "more spiritual". I am talking about leading others into the place that you yourself have already attained. As an elder in my fellowship, it is my responsibility so to speak to seek God more diligently than the rest of the congregation and spend more time with Him than they do. The reason for this is that I must have somewhere to lead them. If one of them surpasses me, PRAISE GOD!!, but I must be able to lead them somewhere substantive and not simply tell them where they ought to go. I think this principle can apply to what you are saying. The angels had a greater revelation and relationship, and therefore were held to a different standard.

Angels were born into the presence of God. They were immediately privileged to dwell in the unadulterated presence of God Almighty. It is obvious that they had the ability to sin, as man did, but there is a direct correlation between proximity to God and depth of sin and rebellion.

Men know in part, and have at best, vague notions of God. Angels knew everything there was to know about God and what it meant to dwell in His presence continually. Obviously to reject that, there is no where else to go. Redemption is to bring someone into a right relationship with God, Angels already had that. This is what they rejected, that is why they are already judged.

-quote-

I really liked your writing brother Frank!

I have felt that God planned something so much better for man than he did for the angels. Those fallen angels went against the light and presence of God and therefore doomed themselves. The scriptures state that Hell was created for the devil and his angels.

This leaves me to believe that God in his foreknowledge created man with a natural (temporal) body first with limited knowledge so that he could be redeemed and then receive a glorified body like the angels. This kept man from being separated from God forever! What great Love God has for man!

Hebrews 2:14-18 (KJV)
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Blessings to all!

//So, rather than God tempting men by a created devil (God forbid) He does the exact opposite and points men to the Truth and to Himself.//

The latter part of your statement is obviously true, but would you say that God has use for satan? If so, what is that use? If not, why is satan still around?

"A person’s character determines how he interprets God’s will (see Psalm 18:25-26). Abraham interpreted God’s command to mean that he had to kill his son, and he could only leave this traditional belief behind through the pain of a tremendous ordeal. God could purify his faith in no other way. If we obey what God says according to our sincere belief, God will break us from those traditional beliefs that misrepresent Him. There are many such beliefs which must be removed”“ for example, that God removes a child because his mother loves him too much. That is the devil’s lie and a travesty on the true nature of God! If the devil can hinder us from taking the supreme climb and getting rid of our wrong traditional beliefs about God, he will do so. But if we will stay true to God, God will take us through an ordeal that will serve to bring us into a better knowledge of Himself.”

~Oswald Chambers

"...dishonors God with even a mere suggestion that He may have possibly created evil."

God says of Himself,

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

And again He testifies,

Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job, and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God, and turning away from evil. Job 1:1

His beloved servant Job, who was surely one who'd not dishonor God,testified;

"The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away.
Blessed be the name of the LORD.” Job 1

But he(Job) said to her(Mrs Job), "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.
Job 2:10

To the Word and to the Testimony!

That just put the fox among the chickens! :)

Context shmontext :)

I don't want to get caught up in the scriptures I have no idea what they really mean, so the simple man just has a question, could evil maybe be storms, floods, fires, etc. I mean those things are pretty evil. I do know God did create Lucifer, I don't think God created Lucifer as evil, but allowed the potential for sin. Also I think, when Lucifer chose to rebel, he instantly became the author of sin. Evil was the result of a free-will choice by Lucifer. This is how the old common sense dude defines the way he interrupts all this. :-)

Ecclesiastes 7:29

Behold, this only have I found: that God made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Genesis 1:31

And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

_________________________

No true christian would argue that those verses I quoted in my previous post are a contradiction to those above.

I have to agree with Frank here. I do not believe God created evil. God created lucifer, the angels, and man. At his creation he was the anointed cherub and, like all of God's creation, was good. (Genesis 1) Lucifer allowed wickedness in his own heart, deceived man, and the whole of creation fell into sin. (Genesis 2)

I think what often happens is that we settle on a doctrine and then we hurl proof texts to support our doctrine. Exactly the opposite, I believe, of good interpretation.

Savannah referenced Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6. The problem with these scriptures is that we can also find scriptures that seem, very plainly, to contradict those. Savannah posted a few of those as well. 1 John 1:5 among them. I can also add Psalm 5:4 which says God has no pleasure in wickedness, neither shall evil dwell in Him. Also James 1:13 that tells us that God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man.

So either the Bible is extremely contradictory (That is absolutely not the case), or we not understanding what is meant by evil (Which is the only other alternative, so it must be true).

The word evil in the OT is a very broad word. It can range from meaning something that is basically equivalent to wickedness to something that simply means a calamity as in, "Great evil came upon the city when the tornado hit it."

The context of Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6 cannot mean the first, wickedness, because that would directly contradict James 1, Psalm 5, 1 John 1:5. It would also contradict the clear Biblical teaching that God hates wickedness. However, understanding these scriptures to mean that God brought about a calamity upon a city is totally consistent with context both of the passages themselves and the rest of scripture. Look at Jeremiah 19:3 and 15, and Joshua 23:15. Also think about Sodom. God definitely brought evil upon that city. But that in no way implies that God created wickedness.

// I do not believe God created evil.//

I do not believe that anyone here disagrees with that statement.

Obviously "evil” in the verses quoted by Savannah mean "judgment” or calamity and there is no doubt God visits that upon persons or nations as He deems necessary.

Exodus 4:11

And the LORD said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?

John 9:2,3

And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?” Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was in order that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Romans 9:23

What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--

An old question, which when the answer is given, explains all that is revealed of God in the Scriptures, as the above Scriptures show;

Q. What is the chief end of man?
A. To glorify God and enjoy Him forever.

As Todd posted,

Proverbs 16:4

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

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If we do not begin and end with the Glory of God being at the foundation of all creation and history, our attempts to make any sense of all of life and all events in history, will surely be an endless maze and an exercise in futility.

Soli Deo Gloria