Dialogue in church this morning

Our service took a different tact this morning as was announced to the congregation a few days ago. Instead of a regular time of worship and a sermon, which no one has been complaining about, the service was opened up for member participation to discuss I Corinthians 14:26.

"How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification." (I Corinthians 14:26)

The scripture was read and it was asked what do you think this scripture means. It was an attempt at a dialogue - a conversation if you will. What should it mean for us as a corporate body? Does it have any bearing on how we have been doing our Sunday services? What does the word edification actually mean and how do we know it is happening? What occurs when this edification takes place? Following agreed upon rules when speaking, a open microphone was provided for members to ask questions and make comments. It worked pretty well as many members made comments and the usual sermon was put aside for this one Sunday.

I commented that I saw nothing in this verse of the preacher or teaching carrying the whole weight of the service by their sermon or teaching and perhaps pastors have become too weighted down each Sunday thinking their word has to make or make or break the service. If more participated and exercised their gifts perhaps we could ease the load on church leaders. The need for each joint and member to supply was commented upon and emphasized. If services were opened up a bit more it would also necessitate a greater amount of discipline from those sharing. Would they be sharing just to hear themselves or would they be dedicated to not tooting their own horn but seeking to edify the body itself. Overseers and elders should be free to keep a sane and dignified amount of order but let all things (all gift be shared) be done for EDIFICATION OF TYHE BODY. It was stressed and noted that the body with each joint supplying edifies itself through love (from Ephesians). None of what was shared was a call to do away with the preaching of the word but how can a time for the word and full member participation go together? Why would it be a bad things of someone asked a question during the sermon and the preacher could address the question before going on? Many think dialogue with many members sharing between the full body at corporate gatherings seems to have been more the norm for the early church than many modern formal structures and programs. Is relying upon the Holy Spirit for a bit more spontaniety each service such a bad thing?

How can time be set aside for regular preaching of the word yet also for allowing the Holy Spirit to manifest gifts as He will and directs? Under the direction of our leaders, we are trying to ponder and work through these things so we had a dialogue about this in our service this morning instead of the regular format. We did leave "edified."

What is the best way for I Corinthians 14:26 to be practiced?

Oh, David, this is wonderful! A very BIG subject, but know that there are sources to glean from for "helps"and encouragement in meeting under the Headship of Christ, and letting the Holy Spirit live through the members of His Body to one another. The Cross is central, and learning to prefer one another and yield to one another takes time. I.E. the "talker" needs to learn how to "not dominate" (or be quiet) so the "quieter ones" can learn how to function and be a joint of supply, too. Hundreds of thousands of Christians meet this way and no two meetings are the same just like no two early churches were the same. Laying down the whole organized way has got to go in order for the Body to learn how to function "organically" and "spontaneously." "Organized" is a hindrance rather than a help, but....maybe....you may have to do that initially until all control can be given to the Head - Christ. It can be a bit scary :) It shouldn't be but initially it can be. And there may be blood ... but The Life overcomes.

This is a great website that I think would be a great help:

Christcenteredchristianity.com

I look forward to your updates!
💜
Mary

I remember at a church I attended in the past, they did not have 'Sunday School'. No, they had Foundations Class which was a 12 week program of study of key Bible doctrines which are central to New Testament living. The program was carefully crafted by the leadership (mostly the pastor) so as to avoid any doctrinal errors. You see, the leadership of that church did not want a regular Sunday School where appointed teachers taught what they felt the Bible says. No, if that teacher's interpretation of scripture deviated from what the pastor felt it should be, it was error and we can't risk any chance for error being propagated at the church.

So good luck with open-mic 'sharing' of teaching. I am also reminded of several church members who during small groups would drone on and on about stuff and would get diverted down rabbit trails and never would end their monologue on their own. Someone else would have to say, "That's good Charlie. It reminds me of the time the Lord...." so as to break away from Charlie.

-Daniel

Telling the "microphone hogs” to relinquish the mike is surely one of the most vital "growing pains” that would have to occur.

And like Daniel said, how much tolerance would there be for divergent views on certain topics? That is another growing pain and perhaps with the leading of the HS these issues level out over time.

I am curious how churches that operate this way, which of course is how they should operate, deal with these sorts of practical issues.

Most people cannot imagine such a service so they might have to see it in operation first.

by docs
Is relying upon the Holy Spirit for a bit more spontaniety each service such a bad thing?

How can time be set aside for regular preaching of the word yet also for allowing the Holy Spirit to manifest gifts as He will and directs? Under the direction of our leaders, we are trying to ponder and work through these things so we had a dialogue about this in our service this morning instead of the regular format. We did leave "edified."

What is the best way for I Corinthians 14:26 to be practiced?

How can time be set aside for this? You said it yourself, spontaneity. I've found the Holy Spirit doesn't do things on a regular basis... except show up!! :)

Getting directions from us or anyone else takes away all the fun of learning to follow Him! My sheep know my voice and none other will the follow!

God bless and He is forever faithful!
Lisa

//Maybe your part of a cell group or home group that your church has. Just keep in mind, that is actually church.//

This is very true- the most authentic church experiences I have had has been with relatively small prayer groups.

What is the best way for I Corinthians 14:26 to be practiced?

I think the way you described it is awesome. We had exactly the same thing happen in our fellowship on Wednesday evening. We had one lady who sat on one side and wept the entire service as God used what was being shared by different members of the body to convict her and convince her that He loved her and desired to know her. She came forward and totally surrendered her life to the Lord. There was a radical change in her life. Praise God!!!

I think though that we have to be careful about making too many generalizations. The work of the apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, and evangelist is to bring the body to the full grown maturity of a man of God. Obviously we need to teach the body, and obviously the body coming together in one meeting is probably the best way to do that. Remember the guy that fell asleep during Paul's all night sermon? Obviously the New Testament pattern is not strictly 1 Cor. 14:26 in the sense that all of our services should look like this.

I think 1 Cor. 14:26 deals primarily with the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the body. Paul was dealing with a body that was seeing the manifestation of the gifts, but was not understanding the proper way to order those gifts. In the preceding verses, he deals with some of their mistakes. Then he says, "How should it be then? When you come together and everyone has something to contribute, it should be done with edification in mind. He then goes on to show the proper order so that all might be edified. I don't think he was so much giving a model for a service, as much as he was giving a statement of motive behind what we do and the reason that order is necessary.

My understanding anyway.

Awesome to see God moving in your fellowship. It is exciting. I am seeing God move in ways that I have been reading in the Bible lately, and it is really revving me up spiritually.

P.S Take the so called Pastor out of the churches in America and those who for so long have been mere spectators and not participators, would sit and not have any idea what to do.

Unfortunately, you are probably right. I remember hearing that at Azusa street, the people would come in and just naturally begin singing and praying. No one "started" the service. Wonder what that would look like for us today?

Years ago, I had a pastor that drove a long way to church and he always said, "If I'm not here on time, start without me." No one would. I was young and would tell the music leader, he said start without him, let's go. And they'd just look at me like I didn't know what I was doing.

Even with clear direction, they wouldn't do it. Whenever he was late, he would walk in and look so disappointed that no one had started without him.

It's very easy to accomplish this. Just gather together with a small group and sing, pray, read Scripture and give testimonies and ask God to send a prophetic word in brotherly love to build up the body. Share a meal afterwards. I go to "regular" church services and have a weekly meeting in my home. Every time we meet in my home, there is a sweetness and powerful presence of the Holy Spirit with some prophetic words, including knowledge and visions. There is a lot of love in the room for each other that is hard to express in the ordered church service and this is the key to having a fullness of the Spirit. Pursue love in the meeting and earnestly desire the Spiritual gifts, especially prophesy. The regular meetings I attend are also edifying but no where near as satisfying to the soul as the weekly small meetings.

I'm not sure that pastors are the actual problem. Scripturaly, elders are the right leadership of the local body. The problem is that to protect the flock, everyone assumes control of the meeting by the professionals and order is the
key to avoiding abuse. What it actually does is grieve the Spirit by despising prophesy. Kicking the Spirit out of the meeting by grieving Him through "despising' or not trusting the Spirit to control His own meeting is the result.

//powerful presence of the Holy Spirit with some prophetic words, including knowledge and visions.//

Hey Robert-

It might be helpful to some if you could explain further or give example(s) of this.

An example of brotherly love leading to a prophetic word in an actual meeting:

Prior to and during every worship meeting I pray intensely that God would give me and others in our group a word to bless and encourage someone. During prayer in one meeting I got a picture in my mind of a stack of stones, Ebineezer stones like the ones Israel constructed during their journey to remind them of God's goodness to them "thus far". I got the distinct impression from the Holy Spirit that there was one or more people in the room who had a stack of stones of remembrance in their minds of bad things that had happened to them in their lives that they were constantly remembering, dwelling on and living by instead of stones of God's goodness to them. When I shared this with the group, a first time visitor from France started crying and explained the word was for him. He shared that he had suffered many struggles in his life that had captured his mind and his faith and that he was spiritually trapped by the memory of these events. In fact, he confessed that these stones ( testimonies ) had almost become idols to him. We prayed for him and over him and he started repenting to God about not releasing these things and in not rather having stones of remembrance for all God's goodness in his life. Just one example of many by others and I think I've personally only had a few visions or words of knowledge like this so it isn't some strange habit of envisioning pictures, etc. At the risk of sounding foolish about such things, I share this story because I would be twice this foolish if helped a brother or sister draw closer to God.

Excellent”” thanks for sharing that!

Been reading "In the Shadow of the Almighty" by Elizebeth Elliot (really is actually mostly journal entries and letters by Jim Elliot). He struggled with this as well. He wanted churches to carry the NT model for fellowship and leadership, and actually practiced it to some degree. It was going well. Then the congregation voted to forgo it so they could have a service. It was frustrating to him, which is totally understandable.

I have experienced these types of house churches before, but the issue that I struggled with there was that there were no Elders, no deacons--basically no leadership at all.

I often wonder what the middle of the pendulum swing would look like--clear structure and leadership, given over to service and the leading of the Spirit in such a way that while the format is not rigid, the structure Paul called for to the Corinthians, in Timothy, and in Titus are in place and functioning as intended. That every single word that was said was motivated to build up others. That we submit to the leading of the elders for the sake of Christ and His bride AND deliver words for the sake of Christ and His bride.

A major issue in churches like the one I currently attend is that there are two services so automatically there is a limiting of what the HS might want to do in the 1st service.

Wow Frank! If this ever happens in Missouri again, I would love to see if I am close enough to attend.

I think you said something that I thought earlier today that really hits the crux of the issue. The Holy Spirit must be the one who is in charge. He must lead everything we do. It is His agenda after all that is important, right?

But I think we have become accustomed to doing things that are devoid of the Spirit of God. We do it by our own strength, with our own agenda, out of our own heart and mind, and this fleshly effort cannot bring the results of the Spirit of God. We plan programs, organize services, brand our church, advertise, and draw in crowds. We try our best to minister to them. We do it out of a good heart most often. Our own motive is usually a good one. The problem is that it is our motive and our strength. We do it in His name, but it is not necessarily His will.

It is much like trying to live our lives under the mindset of law and performance. We try to do good, change our behavior, and clean up our lives, hoping God will be pleased. "God, in your name I cast out demons, etc." His reply is, "I never knew you." God, I tried to build this church for You. His reply is, "But you never consulted Me about how I wanted it done."

It is not about form or fashion, order of service, type of music, etc.. It is about a heart that simply says, "God, this is Your church. I am here to steward this body. What do You want done and I will do it."

Apollus,

In a setting like that, how does doctrine become concrete?

/In a setting like that, how does doctrine become concrete?/

To a certain degree, isn't the type of setting you asked about a concrete and living example of the doctrine of the many membered functioning with each member being willing to contribute what God has deposited within them. Would not this be doctrine displayed in a concrete and living way?

I'm not quibbling or trying to hassle but sincerely asking.

Thank you.

I just can't get the link to work properly.

Thank you all your comments. Pls
s carry on.

There are several drivers of the form and format of worship gatherings.

1. tradition

2. fear of chaos and abuse

3. general lack of manifestation of the Holy Spirit in congregants' lives daily.

4. desire for larger and larger congregations driven by good motives and bad motives.

5. desire to receive and grow individually rather than to give and help others grow. This may be the most crucial problem in the church. It leads to the need for pastor centric churches, missional organizations, parachruch ministries, generally and inevitably creating a mercenary based Christianity where we hire people to do the work of ministry in place of the priesthood of believers.

6. using gatherings as a time for outreach to the lost and to seekers rather than primarily as a time of communion with God and His people.

7. quenching of the Spirit by despising prophesy. Cessationsism.

8. Pastor salaries that force pastors to be the center of church spiritual life. Pastors and lay people alike want this.

9. A human desire for structure where we can just show up and plug into church without thought or intention.

10. A lowering of understanding and expectation of what a true born again Christian is. We are building our spiritual houses primarily with "wood, hay and stubble" instead of "precious stones" and thus, the glory of God rarely falls into that spiritual temple. This is the one reason that should cause leadership to tremble for an account will be required.

Quote:
"Great question, outside of essentials I dont think anything should be concrete. There should be room for people of the Calvinistic persuasion and the Arminuis persuasion. There should also be room for those who believe in a pre trib rap and all other tribs. These should be interesting and fascinating in-house discussions we have where iron simply sharpens iron and no one announces that it's their ball and they are leaving. I once had breakfast once a week week for eight months with a Baptist Pastor friend who was convinced of a certain interpretation of Romans 7, I held the opposite view. It was one of the most rewarding encounters I have ever had."

Hallelujah! Wouldn't that be great to see more often!!
Thanks Frank.

CoG...great post also. Hit it on the head(s).

"Great question, outside of essentials I dont think anything should be concrete. There should be room for people of the Calvinistic persuasion and the Arminuis persuasion. There should also be room for those who believe in a pre trib rap and all other tribs. These should be interesting and fascinating in-house discussions we have where iron simply sharpens iron and no one announces that it's their ball and they are leaving. I once had breakfast once a week week for eight months with a Baptist Pastor friend who was convinced of a certain interpretation of Romans 7, I held the opposite view. It was one of the most rewarding encounters I have ever had." end quote

I totally agree! I have been out of the building for about 6 or so years. We have recently started a "I have no name for it" but a group of friends coming together at my house eating together, reading books together or scripture or just visiting. Really just getting to know each other to love each other and figure out how to flesh out our walk with Christ in absolute surrender to Him and truly learning how to walk as His beloved SO WE CAN LOVE OTHERS!! That is the Gospel! That is what we are called to do love God with all our heart and our neighbor. Not set up doctrinal statements or set up people as Ministers and hand out titles or set up a "denomination"

WE may meet every week but then not meet for a couple weeks. It's just how everyone's schedule works. It really is not rocket science or that difficult to figure out. When you come out of the building you so want a system or set of rules to follow, but that is part of the problem imo. It really is simple! If you really want to know how the body should work then the first step is getting rid of what you think you know or grew up in. Get rid of it all and be willing to re-learn everything!

We have touched on most of our long held doctrines that we all grew up in "church" learning about and we may not have concrete answers for all of them but there is no judging when we have crazy questions or random thoughts. It really is like a family getting to know each other. That is what the body should look like. Just imagine being invited to a family dinner and when you walk through the door you are given a printed out itinerary and a time frame for each thing you are allowed to participate in as you sit in your rows of chairs staring at the back of your cousins head. Hogwash! The family would never bond or truly know each other. It would all be surface relationships for the most part.

Being the body is being a family...learning to deal with each others weirdness and loving each other anyway!

Mark 3:33-35

He replied to them, "Who are my mother and my brothers?" Looking at those sitting in a circle around him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother."

{{Should this not characterize our fellowship? Being in a circle seeing one another with Jesus at the center? Being a spiritual family?}}

I have never looked at that verse that way. Thank you, I look forward to sharing that insight with my friends. It definitely has a practical use, but the spiritual significance is HUGE!