Acts 2:38 is more powerful than many think!

Just like to know what others think...

Why do most who believe in the trinity...think that to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ is heresy? Why do many explain away Acts 2:38 instead of just doing and believing what it says?

I mean every place in the book of Acts it mentions only the Lord or Jesus Christ. Now we know God has made Jesus Lord and Christ according to Acts 2:36.

”‹
Acts 2:38 (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:12 (KJV)
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:16 (KJV)
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 10:48 (KJV)
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:5 (KJV)
When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Matthew 28:19 is the only place where Jesus tells his disciples to go into all the world and baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

Now the book of Acts is where the Apostles receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost upon clear instructions from the Lord that they were to tarry until and then they were to go with the message of the kingdom of God.

Now the very first message Peter preached when they got convicted they asked him what they to do...and he told them to repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Could it be that this scripture is more powerful if obeyed than we think. Now Jesus was not this specific in Matthew 28:19-20.

Notice in Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 2:38-41 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 4:12 (KJV)
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Philippians 2:9-11 (KJV)
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Colossians 3:17 (KJV)
17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Colossians 2:9-12 (KJV)
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Now the name of Jesus is the only name under heaven whereby we must be saved. Now since Matthew 28:19 says name and not names...then why couldn't this name be "Jesus" because the name of Jesus came from the Father by the Holy Ghost. It looks like that if you had to use the formula in Matthew 28 instead of Jesus Christ then somewhere after Pentecost the Apostles would have mentioned it in their letters.

Now if the name of Jesus is the only name that saves then why is it considered heresy to only use the name of Jesus Christ in Baptism like it appears in the book of Acts after Pentecost.

Now I don't agree with the UPCI when they say that one must speak in tongues to be save because we are saved by faith in Jesus through his shed blood for our sins.

Any thoughts are appreciated...

Blessings to all!

Are you oneness Pentecostal as this is there doctrine

3. Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit . . .”

It is a heresy to deny the trinity as it makes us different from people like the mormans and the jws

The doctrine of the trinity is fundementally something that you infer from the scriptures

Do you believe in the trinity

rbanks-

You raise an interesting point but I am not sure that you have explained how to get around the Great Commission.

The statements in Acts regarding being baptized in Jesus’ name could be shorthand for saying " be baptized as disciples of Jesus Christ.”

I do not believe we have actual quotes in Acts of what was specifically said when a person was baptized. They very well could have said "in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit” but what was understood was that they were committing themselves publically as disciples of Jesus. Thus instead of writing out "the Father Son and Holy Spirit” when baptism was mentioned they just shortened it.

Yes...I believe in the trinity

But it seems clear from the book of Acts that they did everything in the name of Jesus

It seems clear that they baptized in the name of Jesus Christ

It seems clear from all the epistles that was written concerning the church and believers that they baptized in the name of Jesus Christ

It seems clear that it is the name of Jesus that brings reproach to the world...one can mention the name of God and not bring a reproach because so many religions believe in God but when you mention the name of Jesus that is when the trouble starts...

Acts 4:7 (KJV) And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?

Acts 4:10 (KJV) Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Acts 4:12 (KJV) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 5:40-42 (KJV) 40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten [them], they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. 42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

Acts 8:12 (KJV) But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:16 (KJV) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Just wondering what others thought on why it is considered heresy....

I mean how do we pray....how are we saved....how do we speak with authority and power. I always say in the name of Jesus. I find not one scripture where the Apostles spoke or prayed in any other name but the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:36 (KJV) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Philippians 2:9-11 (KJV) 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Colossians 3:17 (KJV) And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

But how do you get around Jesus’ own command in the Great Commission?

Bro. rbanks,
Thank you, I appreciate your question,... it is enormous ,...

First, I believe we must consider ‘what His Name’ is ...

We know Him as His great Name, ‘Jesus ‘...
But we MUST know Him as a WHOLE of that Name.

Jesus’ Name and God’ Name are the same,.. remembering how God always talked about "My Name” ?...

so if one is baptized in the Name of Jesus or if one is baptized in the Name of The Father and of The Son and of The Holy Ghost, ... it is all the same,... as I see it,..because we are baptized unto a death unto our fleshly ‘way’ of life unto true Life, which is everything that , that Name (the Whole Word of God ) means/stands for.,... (that He came to work in us by The/ His Holy Spirit.)

He called us by His Name,.. the Seed,.. which is ‘The Word of God’
He has now given us a new Name, ... has planted the Seed,.. The Word of God within us,.. which is His Name,... has given us His Name,... The Holy Spirit,.. Word of God ,through The Holy Spirit.

Mt.1:23,
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”

””””””””””””-
elizabeth

Just a note:on His Name,...

His Name,.. The Name of God, that was given unto His Son, Jesus, was here from the beginning of time,..
(Which is God, The Spirit / Word)

Jn. 1:1,
"In the beginning was ‘the Word... The Word was with God,and The Word was God.”
Isa.63:16,
...”Doubtless, thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; ‘THY NAME IS EVERLASTING’

Isa.9:6,
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
AND HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED,Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace”.

Gen.21:33,

And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, ‘AND CALLED THEREON THE NAME OF THE LORD, THE EVERLASTING GOD .’

””””””””””””
In His Name,
elizabeth

Thank you Elizabeth!

I love and agree with your post!

TMK,

The Apostles were the first ones to carry out the great commission and Acts 2:38 is just as much the Word of Jesus as Matthew 28:19..

Here is Luke’s account of the great commission:

Luke 24:45-47 (KJV) 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

And what is the name of the Holy Spirit?

Rodger b,
The Holy Spirit, is the whole Word of God, ... The Truth ,...
God’ righteous judgements/ how He see’s righteously in all things.
That is His Name.

And another note:

When men in the past, and we now, call upon ‘The Name of The Lord’
it is not a magical thing of calling on the Word Jesus, ... but it is a calling upon whatever His Name means/ stands for,.. because He wants to do the work of His Name that He has given us ,...‘in us’.

””””””””””””””-
elizabeth

John 14:26 (KJV)
But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It is clear from scripture that the only way to the Father is through Jesus and the only way to receive the Holy Ghost is through Jesus...

John 14:6 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:26 (KJV) But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

//The Apostles were the first ones to carry out the great commission and Acts 2:38 is just as much the Word of Jesus as Matthew 28:19..//

But once again there is no quotation in Acts of what was actually said at the time of a baptism, so how do you know what they were actually saying? You are assuming that they only baptized in Jesus’ name.

By the way- in the long run I do not think it matters which way a person is baptized, ie in Jesus name only or in the name of the Father Son and HS. Obviously the latter is more in line with what Jesus commanded unless we do not believe He meant what He said.

To me, we come close to missing it when we try to make too much out of the scriptures that talk about who's name we baptize in. I think Jesus own words in the gospels gives us huge evidence as to the truth.

How often did Jesus speak of Himself, the Father, and the Holy Spirit as being distinct? It is literally all over His own words. So much so to be overwhelming. Then, how often did He make it clear that He and the Father were one? Jesus was VERY clear about this in John 17. It is irrefutable. So He is one, and yet He is three.

Granted, the term "trinity" is not a term we find in scripture, but rather a word we use to describe what we see in scripture. But what we plainly read in scripture tells us that there is one God, one Spirit (after all, God is spirit, not flesh and blood), manifested in three persons that are distinct enough to interact with one another and speak of and to one another as distinct.

We just don't understand spirit, so we muddle it all up with human analogy and understanding and wind up arguing about trinity and oneness. It is enough to me to know I serve the ONE and ONLY God, and yet He reveals Himself to me in three distinct persons. Not sure how that works in the spirit realm, but I will one day.

I would add. If we find in scripture two incidents, one in which they baptized in Jesus name and one in which they baptized in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then I think it is OK to do either one. Not a big issue in my book.

Travis,
Jesus, we know was one with The Father.
He also said, ‘Father make them one,as we are one’

But what brings about that oneness,... that unity ?
It is The Word of God, which is His Name....
We are many, but He wants us to be ‘one’,... unifying us with The Father (God), who is The Spirit/Word,... the invisibile God.

His Name is most important.,... that new Name, that He has given us,... which is all encompassed in The Word/Seed, (the Holy Spirit), that He has planted within us.
...that surfaces as a fountain of Living Water as The occasion/need arises,... if we will heed, it will bring us into that oneness/unity, as it did with The Father and His Son, Jesus .

Lovingly I am communing,
””””””””””””””-
elizabeth

Travis: When you minister on the streets, you will run into all kinds of beliefs, when in the confines of a congregation and who all subscribe to the Trinity its easy to 'call it no big issue'. But when the UPC or Apostolic Church attempts to tell young converts they are not baptized correctly, or they have not received the Spirit of God but a false spirit or if they have not spoke in tongues to prove they are 'filled' and thereby saved...you have now got to have more than on opinion of the legitimacy of the Trinity.

When the United Pentecostal Church tells its own congregants that the doctrine of the Trinity is pagan and literally confuse it with Tri-theism what will you say then?

Ambiguous ideas about the Trinity or about modes of baptism seem to be all acceptable losses and easy concessions when the spirit of the world is telling true believers " lets unite, lets be at peace, lets not strive about words" In the end it's a wonderful service to Satan, that way he gains easy access to young converts to confuse and damage their young minds with corrupt doctrines and in the end practices that include 'resisting the truth and right Church'.

I get it no one likes to fight, but unfortunately its encumbant we do so.

rbanks,
Thank you for the kindness,

In response to this statement :
Re:
"It is clear from scripture that the only way to the Father is through Jesus and the only way to receive the Holy Ghost is through Jesus...”

That is very true,.. And we know that, that was made possible only by His Blood sacrifice.

... A truly wonderful subject.
Thank you ,
””””””””””””-
elizabeth

Yes sister...what can wash away my sins, nothing but the blood of Jesus

Here is another thought:

We know it is the blood that makes atonement

Acts 22:16 (KJV) And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 2:38 (KJV) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

There something about the name of Jesus and the blood of Jesus that seems to also have an effect in water baptism when there is faith in the Lord Jesus death and resurrection.

Notice that Peter clearly told them to repent and....be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins....

Now we know that it is the blood that we receive remission of sins

But Peter said be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins...and the You shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

Thanks Marvin for your comment...

It is sad when there is so much confusion and hurt when people are so zealous to preach a doctrine that hurts and divides the body of Christ.

The reason I wrote this post because I have recently come across some powerful music of the Pentecostals of Alexandria. A Pastor name Anthony Mangun is a oneness Pentecostal in Louisiana who ministers to thousands of people. This man is one of the most dedicated to the Lord Jesus Christ that I have witnessed.

For over 40 years his church has had around the clock prayer. They have ministered to hundreds on the street and have seen multitudes baptized in Jesus name and baptized in the Holy Ghost.

I also saw a utube video where he was on tbn with Jentzen Franklin talking about prayer and fasting.

I know what I believe but I am here to challenge us with scripture because these oneness Pentecostal are truly dedicated and not going away but are growing...and they have scripture to back up what they believe...

Bro. rbanks,
We are all here to encourage one another,.. but we must study ‘the plumb line’,... in order to measure man ‘s voice by The Spirit / Word He has given unto us.
Jesus said, we will know the Truth.
Jesus said, ‘follow me’

Paul said, ‘to follow him ‘AS’ he followed Christ’,.. and what I am trying to say is, we must know Christ and His Way,in order to know if (Paul) or one is following Christ.... for many deceivers are in the world.

We must first of all, be taught by The anointing of The Holy Spirit.
Hungering and thirstIng after The Lord,and His Way,..

What I am trying to say is, I beg you,..love the brethren,..but NOT get wrapped up in man, but in God,..alone.

1Jn.2:26,
" But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

And not the ‘oneness’ ,... If Paul would have ‘seen’ in this way, don’t we believe he would have preached it that way, but instead see many,many times he never failed to mention ‘God’ .... ‘The Father’ ,.... ‘The Son’

Please, .... it is easy to get side-tracked,..let us keep our eyes on Jesus,The Word,,The Spirit.

Just caring and the love of God,
””””””””””””””
elizabeth

Hi Rbanks: TBN was always friendly to Oneness pentacostalism, Tom Tenny 'the God chasers' and TD Jakes frequented TBN.

I know how appearances are, I come on here telling folks that UPC is a cult, and you come on here promoting one of their ministers. I come on here refusing to fellowship with Anti-Trinitarians, Modalists or Deity deniers like the Jw's or the Mormons.

I realize it's easier to accept anyone who can say a prayer in Jesus name and Baptize folks. I realize I make no friends by making enemies of everyone who happily accepts any doctrine so long as the preacher has good works and prayer meetings. But, I still call them a cult and still think there is a fundamental error in accepting them.

If the UPC were not a divisive cult, they would be at our ministers conferences and would be sending their people to listen to avowed Trinitarians...but they do not. They are happy to preach to Trinitarians and gain some notoriety, but they will not send their congregants to fellowship with Trinitarians. Why? Because they fundamentally believe doctrines that are false but yet charge Trinitarians that they are false; and they know that they cannot assimilate into our Churches or otherwise they would lose members.
This is exactly the same thing the Mormons and Jw's do, they are happy to have us attend, but they will not allow their members to attend normative Christian services.

So, I am for division, I am divided against error, divided against false teaching. Error and truth are irreconcilable, It matters to God what God you worship and how you conduct yourself. When the Trinitarians baptizes in the Father Son and Holy Spirit, the Oneness refuse to acknowledge that baptism, if you do not speak in tongues you are not saved.

But, with the spirit of this age, we are encouraged to unite..because to be divided over doctrine is worse than being in a cult or even being lost. I anathematize such thinking; its foreign to scripture and to genuine Christianity.

Brother Blaine posted an article by Chip Brogden, He's all about repudiation...over 300 some reads, but no one even raised an eyebrow to the fact that we are all just working from the wrong "R" word. It's no longer reformation, it's no good to be a revivalist...we need repudiation. Yet, Where's the repudiation for cultic doctrine?

It is not unity to sacrifice the scriptures and proper interpretation for smiles, pats on the back and approvals from men.

I personally do not give a penny for unity based on concession to error. This is what the false prophets did, this is what false teachers do, this is what the blind who lead the blind seek to promote; a full acceptance of a person based not upon a scriptural criteria but upon the externals of prayer and baptism...and the preaching to large crowds. Shoot, the W.O.F do that and I know we have a few here that reject them, but cults we now allow?

I cannot call him a man of God who cannot seem to understand God is not in the Spirit mode, nor in the 'son' mode. Men of God are men who know what the scriptures teach...and they do not teach modal monarchianism.

I've spent years dealing with the UPC, Ive had family members sucked into it and how it distorted their relationship with Jesus Christ. I've had the Lord Jesus speak directly to me about this group and I will not draw back now, he showed me they are wonderful to look at, but they eat what is vile and should never be eaten.

It does matter what you believe, otherwise why the restrictions to this discussion board? Why the limitations on 'who should be downloaded'? Because truth matters. Greg has the spiritual foresight to acknowledge that.

Think about this for a moment.
The protestant reformation...it was dividing against the Catholic Church...for the betterment of the body of Christ and for the glory of God. Wesley's preaching drew about about 150,000 people for the Church of England...Methodism was formed. It is not by living in some pretended unity, but by leaving the errant, dead and fake behind and striking forward in God.

To many I sound like a divisive mean guy who just wants all the world to be reformed in doctrine. But, I have realized something very clearly over the years, those who pretend to be above it all and claim myself and other 'just cant see past our own doctrinal persuasions' are just as equally mired in their own doctrinal persuasions and speak on pretense that they have a door to unity and understanding the rest do not. They do not have the understanding or unity they pretend to have or promote.

The fact that nothing is anathematized yet we are so interested in unity and ending divisiveness we will swallow anything so long as it does not create the appearance of being mean or divisive.

Repudiation...so many read it, but I don't believe anyone believes it.

Why is homosexuality finding some acceptance in Churches now a days? Because of the very thing that's being done on his discussion board, sacrificing truth for the appearance of love and acceptance. What does giving place to homosexuality do doctrinally? It creates a distortion of who God is and when that is distorted the Word of God must be distorted to fit the god we chose.

Christianity 101, carrying the cross of Christ gives the appearance you don't love people, it gives the appearance you are a lost cause dying on a hill that you need no die on.

Thanks sister Elizabeth and brother Marvin for your posts!

Have a blessed night!

Love in Christ and Blessings to all!

Bro. Rbanks
A blessed night to you also, dear brother.

””””””””””-
elizabeth

by rbanks
The reason I wrote this post because I have recently come across some powerful music of the Pentecostals of Alexandria.

Literally the ONLY thing that they have going for them is that seemingly "powerful music" and every single church plays that same music. It's like the watching the piped piper play down the street and people follow him but I compel you, they do NOT worship in Spirit and Truth.

Please listen to Marvin.

God bless you,
Lisa

Marvin: I am closer to this thing than you might think and I am well acquainted with the issue. In our fellowship we have people who came from the UPC. Many from the oneness background are very strongly grounded in the tradition of that doctrine. It is can definitely be a fighting issue with them.

My point is that any plain and clear reading of the gospels shows us that God manifests Himself to us in three distinct persons. If we say otherwise, we make total confusion of Jesus words. We tend to focus on the baptism scriptures and thrown them back and forth at one another, but there is a huge weight of scripture that speaks to this that does not rely on the scriptures about baptism.

One other note. The people in our fellowship that I speak of are in love with the Lord in a powerful way. God has been transforming their lives as He has all of us. We have spoken about the issue. But it has never become a contention in our fellowship. I credit this to a passionate pursuit of God which brings about a humility and a desire for unity.

I will say this. It does not bother me in the least if someones view of God is not trinitarian. I think the issue might be that many people lump non-trinitarian and unitarian in the same boat. Unitarian is a false doctrine (doctrine of demons Biblically). A non-trinitarian view is not. There is not an essential doctrine that those that grew up UPC that are now in our fellowship are missing. They just have some trouble with the separation of persons that trinitarians teach.

But again, I think the core of it is that we all try to come up with temporal analogies to explain a spiritual reality. This is like trying to describe a three dimensional object when we only live in a one dimensional world. We just cannot adequately do it.

Is God one....YES! Does He manifest Himself to us in three persons that are spoken of as if they are distinct and interact one with another by Jesus Himself...YES! These are simply observations from scripture that need no interpretation. I don't have to be steeped in any one doctrine to observe and recognize these things. That was my point in the first post.

Where that leaves us as we discuss this issue (meaning a trinitarian and someone who might be, lets say, UPC) depends on the heart of the individual. But I think we are often standing in ditches, hurling stones, and the real problem is that we don't understand at all what road we are on. We are in the flesh, trying to understand a spiritual reality and muddling it all up.

I can say that I don't totally understand it. But I know that God is spirit. This helps me a lot because at least I now know why I don't totally understand it and it gives me more grace for the other guy who is also muddling it all up with human analogy.

Hope that helps explain my thinking and my heart.

First of all, I do not apologize for posting what I have posted.

I have plainly started that I believe in the trinity and that we are saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

I am not oneness...and I know they teach doctrinal errors. I mention the Father all the time in my prayers along with praying in the name of Jesus. I also mention the Father in preaching and teaching which I have noticed that the UPC do not distinguish the difference in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit like we do.

I can very well see how people can be drawn into their churches because they use the scriptures in Acts concerning water baptism and do not have to change a word.

The JW’s do change the Word and also promote the name of Jehovah over the name of Jesus.

The thing that we have in common with the UPC is the name of Jesus which is above every name. The only name given among men whereby we must be saved.
Now I can see the water baptism in Jesus name but they are wrong about their oneness doctrine of making Jesus the Father, Son and Holy Ghost one person. Jesus prayed to his Father and not to himself as the Father. The baptism in the Holy Ghost can only happen after the blood has been applied in regeneration. The world cannot receive the Holy Ghost but only those who are saved by the cleansing blood of Jesus.

The reason I posted was to bring up scripture that is their flagship for their main cause. I mention the name of Jesus also as well as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit when I baptize. I also hate to see young people get caught up into doctrinal error but it is happening and it is sad. I have also seen people hurt because they didn’t feel accepted or saved because they cut their hair, wore pants, make up, didn’t speak in tongues. Legalism has hurt so many people from having a deeper experience with God or even a relationship at all with God.

Brother Marvin I appreciate you and your post. God only knows what I stand accused of and I humbly ask him if I am in in error please show me Lord because I depend on him with all my being. I must admit I do not understand everything but I have cause to believe that if a person truly repents and calls on Jesus Christ even though they may be where some doctrine is false...that God’s Love is so great that He can still save them.

I was saved in 1983 listening to a preacher that the message spoke right to me and I repented calling on the Father for Jesus to come into my heart and save me. This led me to my knees in repentance calling on Jesus and he saved me. I got a hunger for the Word of God and began to really read the Bible to grow in the Lord. This same preacher told me to go buy some books by Hagin and Copeland (WOF). I also started listening to them on the radio. Now as I began to grow in the Lord through prayer and reading the Bible I quit listening to Copeland soon because his message didn’t line up with the Bible. I soon got away from the WOF preachers because of their doctrine.

Now this doctrine on water baptism is the main reason that they are pulling so many into their churches. That is why I started off posting on Acts 2:38 the way I did. I love all of Acts chapter 2 including the 38th verse is powerful but because of the oneness doctrine many are afraid to even use this verse. This chapter is the first message preached where 3000 were saved.

Now the UPC Pastor I mentioned was with Jentzen Franklin and I did listen to him. I did listen to some of his messages and was amazed at his dedication. His dad started the church where he is at and he was raised in UPC all his life. He was sitting with Franklin as he told about his book and commented when asked to comment. I believe the man is very sincere and although I may not agree with all his doctrine I did agree with him on exalting the name of Jesus.

I can agree that this may be a cult as you say Marvin but it is the only cult that I know of that exalts the name of Jesus more than anybody else. No other cult baptizes in the name of Jesus and exalts the name of Jesus above every name that is to be named. Now again I don’t agree with all their doctrine but I don’t believe we need to fall into the trap of criticizing them over the name of Jesus. I think we need to warn people about the legalism but not demean the name of Jesus.

Finally, I was hoping...and am thankful for the meaningful discussion. Thank you Elizabeth for your most gracious replies. Thank you Marvin for your post because I did see your heart in it and gleaned some things from it.

Thank you Greg for SI because we are concerned for revival. I appreciate the opportunity to post because this is a serious issue and the only place I have the confidence to bring it up is with the SI brethren.

I apologize to those who may not have liked the way I brought the post up the way I did on Acts 2:38 but I had a reason for doing so. I have revealed a lot in this post.

Also, I just saw your post brother Travis and loved it!

Blessings to all!

As I followed this discussion, at the beginning I did not consider it was a 'oneness' issue being discussed. I can now see that is where rbanks was coming from. That said, I still do not think that Baptism in the 'name of Jesus' or 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' is necessarily a 'oneness' issue. There is scriptural evidence for both that does not affect ones belief in the distinction of three separate persons in the Godhead. Sometimes there is an over reaction to distance oneself from an error (i.e. oneness) and thereby put up theological walls.

I attend a local church that is definitely not 'oneness' at all. However there is obvious confusion in some who lead regarding our relationship to the Trinity. Not completely unusual because, as Travis has pointed out, it is hard for us to comprehend. So for instance, you hear folk pray to the 'Father' thanking Him for dying for their sins on the cross! I brought this to their attention recently, as I'm not sure if they realise what they are doing. I think it is possible that it has to do with a notion that we can only pray to the Father, 'in Jesus' name' and not pray to Jesus. I'm not sure as I did not get a response when I suggested this. But I never hear prayer to Jesus directly. So you can see the confusion even in Churches that have a correct theology of the trinity.

I do think it is normal to address the Father, through Jesus, or in Jesus' name, but at times it is appropriate and correct to address our pray to Jesus. There is scriptural and logical basis for that. However I do know that some have tied themselves up in a theological knot about this and the result can be practically confusing. In particular when at the same time they are happy to address Jesus directly in certain hymns and worship songs.
...but this is just another issue!

That said, I still do not think that Baptism in the 'name of Jesus' or 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' is necessarily a 'oneness' issue. There is scriptural evidence for both that does not affect ones belief in the distinction of three separate persons in the Godhead. Sometimes there is an over reaction to distance oneself from an error (i.e. oneness) and thereby put up theological walls.
-quote-

Thanks brother Dave for your insight!

Blaine: I would personally say that trinity / oneness is not a salvation issue. Nowhere does scripture teach us that having a distinct trinitarian view is necessary for salvation, and I find nowhere that oneness doctrine would prevent salvation in any way.

I do disagree with the UPC idea that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation. It is not. I have seen people who were baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues and even prophesied at the moment of their salvation. It was awesome to see it happen just like I read about it in Acts. But this is not what usually happens, and it is not necessary for salvation. Their error comes in believing that a person's spirit is not made alive unto God until the experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is simply an extension of a similar doctrine that was taught by Charles Parham. He believed that a person was not "born again" at salvation, but rather at a second definite experience called "sanctification". This was a holdover from his methodist background and the teaching of the second blessing. This second blessing was, I believe, the experience of the baptsim of the Holy Spirit in the very early 1800s at Cain Ridge when Methodism really thrived. But it was watered down over the years until the early 1900s and Parham.

All it boils down to men trying to build structures in their understanding of what God is doing. Their structures become doctrines and we hold to those rather than holding to the actual word of God.
(Tradition making the word of none effect).

Bro.rbanks,
First of all, I want to say, that I appreciate your heart,thoughts, desire,sincerity, and your openness here.... a blessing.

Now, I’d like to share my experience w/ UPC, Jesus Name, gathering of people.

When The Lord first started drawing me unto Himself (Grace),..I was not even on milk,.. knowing nothing except that He existed.
He made me sooo hungry for The Word/ the knowledge of Him,and hungry to find a church,.... I looked and saw many ,..
then I looked and thought on the ,.. now adays Pentecostal ‘s, and thought they really "LOOKED” to be more of the real thing.

So I started out there,.. But,.. (give credit to God,alone) He kept me from following man... Taught me to continue to look for His Way,.. to seek Him alone,..and His plum line to measure by.

He spoke early on one day to me, and I wondered why, because I was not being a hypocrite ,.. but He said,..
"BEWARE OF HYPOCRISY "

My Mother-in-law,attended this type of gathering,.. but she was a most precious Godly person,.... a set-apart person,..her life during the week was one of Living ‘the life’.of one who has a relationship w/ The Lord.

She worked hard all week in the fields, and on Sunday ‘s labored fixing dinners for many that would come to fellowship and eat.... even when she was not well.

I loved her dearly.

We are called to be followers of Jesus, ... and Not traditions,and standards.
We are called to be filled w/ The Spirit of God, and to be ‘led’ by The Spirit of God,.... For The Scripture’s says ,
"for as many,as are ‘led’ by The Spirit of God, .. ‘they are!”, .. "they are! ", "they are! ",.. . The Son/ children of God.”

We are called to ‘worship’ in the Spirit, .. in Truth,.. His Word is Truth.
(To truly adore His Word)

And that may not mean to jump up and down ,and run around in the building, ....very loud emotional music promoting our emotions to be elevated... the only thing that we identify to have had ‘good church ‘
,...
David danced before The Lord,... David was a man after God’ own heart,...
WHY ?

Out of the heart one speaketh,..
The Word says,..we are to consider one’s conversation that wants to lead us.... What do they talk about,.. In everyday life?...
is it covetousness, is it dishonesty,.. is there extortion ( a wringing out)
of persons to profit ones self.

And last of all,
If we ‘believe in ‘a jesus ‘ ,.. without the Word, then we believe in ‘another jesus,.. and we know,we do not want to be baptized into the name of that jesus.

To be baptized into the Name of Jesus, .. we are baptized unto a death, unto >>>> a Life of Jesus ,>>>>>.. His Name,.. which is His The Whole Word of God.

Acts 22:16,
"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, ‘CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD’ " ...(calling on the "Name”
, to change us from our OLD name unto His Name,... His Word ,.. His Name working in us),... our new name.
(This is the baptism that now saves us.,.. through the previous blood of Jesus)

The love of God is sewn abroad in our hearts...... (the love FOR God, who is The Word) ,..... and the love for others)

One other thing:
Consider Paul and baptism,.. wouldn’t Paul have been baptizing left and right,.. but what did he say ?... he said,”I came not to baptize,...”

I tremble to put this out there,...
Lovingly,
””””””””””
elizabeth

I have seen people from all different denominations that were lost in legalism. What I mean is that they are relying on keeping laws and rules for their relationship with God. This cannot save them.

So with the SDA. They have some really aberrant beliefs. To me, their doctrine is really borderline. Yet they teach salvation through repentance and faith in the work of Jesus Christ.

I would say that many are saved. I would say that many are not. I have seen this in every major denomination. Praise God we do not have to have all of our doctrinal ducks in a row to be saved.

This is radically different from a group like the LDS or JW. They are lost. They have been deceived into believing a lie that is essential to their salvation.

Thanks sister Elizabeth for telling your experience and insight!

Thanks Blaine and Travis for your insight!

I don’t believe that water baptism of itself saves but only in the sense of a good conscience toward God. I know Jesus said he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. The apostles carried out the command of Jesus to baptize believers. I would not want to not do anything that Jesus commanded us specifically to do.

I believe that water baptism represents our death, burial and resurrection in Jesus. It must mean something to God for he commands us to do it. I believe it is an act normally before the infilling of the Holy Ghost. We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin but alive unto God. We are to be cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

I would say something like repent...believe in Jesus to save you then be baptized into Jesus Christ his death on account of your forgiveness of sins and be raised with him to walk in newness of life and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This would be at the beginning of our Christian walk but the letters that the apostles wrote to the body of Christ contain the gospel message that we Christians are to believe concerning our salvation and discipleship.

Romans 1:16-17 (KJV) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (KJV) 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Blessings to all!

Brother Banks: I am not accusing you of being UPC, forgive me if you felt my post was accusatory in that way. I do believe you promoted a man who teaches error, that's all I explicitly said.

The thrust of my post was to encourage all of us to be distinctive. We who are truly born of God are the Church the pillar and ground of truth. If you cannot find truth in what you teach, you are not of God.
The apostles taught us directly and indirectly about being distinctive in our doctrine and our way of life. I am saying vague similarities between the UPC or any other cult are danger points. Those who refuse to be distinctive will use those similarities to unite with any devil that dresses in the proper garb and says the right words.

I know that some of us don't think the godhead is an essential of the Christian faith. The early Church Fathers would strongly disagree with that assumption.
If you read the works of Athanasius or Basil they go to great lengths to clarify the Triune God over against Modalists, Nestorians, Sebellians etc. Are their clarifications mere writing exercises for scholars? No, they are there to help us guard against 'angels of light' that come in Jesus name...but when their 'Jesus' is examined he is nothing like what is taught in scripture.

As Travis said human analogies can lead us astray, yet, I don't need to rely upon analogy to understand Patripatassianism (a son-father) is not what Jesus is or has claimed to be. So, when I find modern-day version of it, I refuse it by reason of truth, not by reason of human analogy that sounds persuasive.

For some the litmus test is some vague "salvation issue" which loosely defined simply means "what I deem important to my theological persuasion". That kind of relativism does not help the Church and surely cannot be 'the ground of truth' that we are to be.

You cannot help people be free of error if you consider the truth you hold as something akin to Jello. I don't have a Jello understanding of God in Trinity, I don't have a Jello understanding of the person of Jesus Christ, not because I have my own 'doctrine' but I do have the word of God that declares explicitly his divinity and humanity.

When will we grow up? When will we stop balking at terms like 'hypostatic union', acting as if to know the definition of it and what it means is relegated only to some esoteric few? It's for all of us, not just the early Church Fathers or ecclesiastical careerists.

When we take our own posts and relegate them to mere criticism or some divisive mean opinion, we do ourselves a terrible disfavor. If it weren't for Jesus dividing with the religion of the day, were would we be? If it weren't for Paul dividing with Peter over Jew/gentile relations where would we be?

You all need to make up your mind, division for the right reasons for the glory of God is godly, righteous and good.

If you are not dividing light from dark, good from evil, vile from precious, holy from unholy who will?

It's not a matter of pretending to know who is saved and who is not, nor where we might find some saved among the cults, its obvious God has people in all kinds of places. The issue has always been "coming out from Babylon" and coming out from the World. If you cannot offer them a place to go to, then by default you are taking up residence in Babylon and have found comfort in the world.

Blessings brother Marvin!

I appreciated the truth in your post as well as the passion for the truth!

I always get something out of your posts that blesses me!