The seven mountain mandate is antibiblical

The idea that there is seven mountains that the church has to conquer the mountains of entertainment, government and others is not only not biblical .

The Bible speaks of the opposite

Matthew 24
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. note

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. note

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. note

There is not any groundig for this in the scriptures and I cannot find verses that the church will conquer the world before Jesus returns as completly unbiblblical

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, note

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. note

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

What we notice in this passage is that the Antichrist will be destroyed by Jesus return , in Matt 24 we notice the world will get worse and worse until Jesus return

There is no ground in the bible for the seven mountain mandate

//There is no ground in the bible for the seven mountain mandate //

Perhaps not, but there is a mandate to go into all the world to preach the gospel and the seven areas are clearly part of the world.

Would you rather have the educational system infiltrated by Christians or pagans?

The thing is the message in the bible is to preach the gospel not to infiltrate these seven areas , I would rather have christians preach the gospel rather than using worldly methods to infiltrate the culture
I live in the UK we have a secular education system , this doctrine goes against the whole fact that Jesus will come to save this world rather than a triumphant as places like Iran , Afghanistan, North Korea , eritria , Sudan , Pakistan in these countries this westernised American doctrine does not work and it is not biblical
In places like Iran where persecution is extreme more Muslims have come to know Jesus
I find this doctrine abhorrent to what the Bible says

Does London still have a Muslim mayor?

prov 29:2 When the righteous are in authority the people rejoice,but when the wicked rule, the people mourn.

We all know ( not happy about it!) that France and England will soon be completely run by Islam.

Let's see if we can have revival without giving the reins of our nation to allah!

We know the kingdom of God is not 'earthly' but we are to occupy until He comes.

Breathe on us Oh Lord!! amen

Rusty

We know the kingdom of God is not 'earthly' but we are to occupy until He comes.

Breathe on us Oh Lord!! amen

Chapter and verse from the Bible as there is no biblical verse that backs up the idea of the seven mountain mandate, the Bible does not state that we shall occupy the earth until.jesis return .

It actually states the opposite

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be

Matt 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

The Bible talks immediately after the tribulation of those days it does not talk about a glorious church that has occupied the world welcoming Jesus back , the Bible talks about this world getting world getting so bad as in the times of Noah , Noah and his family were the only righteous people among a massive population of wicked people , God saved them through the ark

This is even stated in the early church fathers

Our nation was not turned around by trying to influence the world in the seven mountains but through the preaching of the gospel that turned this nation around from savages to a civilised nation

This is what is so bad about the seven mountain mandate it Denys the power of the gospel that turned the world upside and uses worldly methods and it is another gospel , one which has no power to save sinners

And again He said, "To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”
Luke 13:20-21

Dominic, Christians are agents of a foreign government whose mission is to infiltrate and subvert. Of course the method is the gospel.

I don’t exactly see why you think it is a bad thing that Christians infiltrate societal institutions. The alternative is to not have Christians in those institutions, which would seem worse, at least to me.

If I am correct, I believe that the 7 mountain mandate view is accompanied by the belief that the earth will be conquered and subdued by the gospel and then Christ will return to a peaceful globe. This view seems to run counter to scriptures such as Daniel 12:1-2 and Matthew 24:21 which describe a time of unequaled trouble and tribulation that ends in Christ's second coming and the resurrection of the dead.

I know nothing about the specifics of a 7 mountain mandate that David mentions.

When I 1st heard about it several years ago it was simply a strategy for influencing societal institutions like education and arts. I never heard that Illuminati-ish version. Perhaps there are different versions of the same idea.

Brother David,
You sir are correct- although it could be said "based on” the belief...
it’s Dominion-ism repackaged.
A top down purging of all non Christians in anything is demonstrably counter to the great command... Love the Lord your God with all, and your neighbor as yourself and it doesn’t say take over and purge all the unbelievers?? That’s Islam
We are His body and I def haven’t heard the head (Christ) call us to do a thing like this nor can I find anything even remotely similar in scripture.

https://www.generals.org/rpn/the-seven-mountains/

Cindy Jacobs, a well known prayer/intercessor in charismatic circles has outlined the 7 mountains or spheres that the prayer warriors are to intercede to God for drastic changes in those areas.

Aside from eschatological differences ( which we all agree is not an essential ) these Christians are attempting to seek God for inroads into these cultural mind-shaping spheres of influence.

Taken at face value it is really difficult to understand why anyone here who claims to value Christian ethics, Christian freedoms, Christian teaching, Christian living, Christian worship would seem to poopoo these folks from praying and seeking God to make changes.

I don't understand why you would not want your children offered a Christian perspective on the world rather than straight humanist-atheist perspective?
Why would we want our governments without the wisdom and influence of godly men and the word of God to help them make decisions, right now, we have lunatics which we all voted in steering our nation into a moral hell.

I for one, would love to see multitudes of Muslims come to Christ versus the few. But it seems their zeal for souls and their zeal for change and their zeal for prayer has not passed the litmus test for some of you.

Outside of Illuminati gossip and disagreements over eschatology there is no substantive word against it.

Make no assumptions about my allegiance to Cindy Jacobs or to some connection with the illuminati, what is there about this that is so appalling?

I recognize there is no explicit scripture to validate praying for these 7 areas of influence, but there is no validation in scripture to validate our SI discussion board on the internet either. Nor is there any explicit scripture validation that unless you are pre-tribulational rapture you are under suspicion of false prayers, false church growth.

I would think in our 'revival' praying we would ask God that he would turn around our culture from the cliff-jump its heading for. But maybe your revival is for leaving things as they are?

Please bring some definitive proof this is not the work of God.

Nigel quoted in another thread...
"Secular music, do you say, belongs to the devil? Does it? Well, if it did I would plunder him for it, for he has no right to a single note of the whole seven. Every note, and every strain, and every harmony is divine, and belongs to us."

"If I thought I could win one more soul to the Lord by walking on my head and playing the tambourine with my toes, I'd learn how!"

-William Booth

Be careful of Booth, you might read he would plunder the devil for art, family and business too.

Sarcasm aside, do you ever notice we commemorate our heros of the past and kill our prophets in the present?

Please bring some definitive proof this is not the work of God.

Try the bible I have laid out verses such as matt 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2

Just as we pray for our leaders and for all those in authority, We are being sent out into whatever realm of society that the Lord has called us, to be light and salt. One of the greatest lies of the enemy is that Christians are not to have any influence in government, education and business.

The Welsh Revival literally transformed the nation of Wales for a season. That is what can happen, When God rends the heavens and comes down, and when His presence is manifested in the earth realm.

God has never changed His mind about the great commission. Wherever people are saved, nations can be transformed.

I believe we are talking past each other.

Like I said when I first heard the seven mountain strategy probably 10 years ago it had nothing to do with any end times scenario. It was simply a strategy to instill salt and light into saltless and dark cultural institutions. How can there possibly be anything wrong with that??

Now some of you are saying the seven mountain strategy is linked to dominionism and some strange end times conspiracy. That very well may be true as well and I would disagree with that version of the seven mountain strategy.

In other words, some of us are talking about one version and others are talking about another.

Brother Todd,

While it hasn’t quite been 10 yrs, maybe 6 or 7 since I became aware of 7 M/Dominionism and they are interchangeable in many cases. Basically different branding but a very similar "business model”.

Also where did the God of mercy go?
When did we stop loving others?
I mean honestly, what if you or your wife were "purged” out of the workplace by Christians? Not for being Christians but BY Christians..... let that sink in for a sec-
And who gets to decide who is Christian enough to keep their career?? And how much is enough and how much is too much?
And where oh where is the biblical mandate for this?

I know someone close who got caught up in this a few years back and it was sad,.... they def want your money so they can purchase property and "claim it for God” then develop it and sell or borrow against it to continue their real estate acquisitions... but neither Jesus nor Paul did anything like this... our King says His kingdom is not if this world:)

Edited to add; I def don’t mean to be part of any movement to bash other believers, even if they’re in error as we all are on something... I can say that I am not personally called to this ministry (7M) but as a member of the body of Christ I am called to speak truth IN LOVE and not use the sword to cut down others but to cut away the lies that so easily entangle... as a member of the body we are called to pray and intercede so perhaps our time may better glorify Christ in that endeavor:) after all He prayed we would all be one per John 17

Thanks Fletcher-

I certainly have no loyalty to the idea and only heard it discussed once. It is possible I only heard part of the picture.

You are bringing things up that I had no knowledge of, like forcefully ousting non Christians from employment (not sure how this would be possible in today’s environment) but I take your word for it. Of course that would be improper. I thought it meant to be salt and light in the workplace and change it from the inside by making converts.

The Bible talks immediately after the tribulation of those days it does not talk about a glorious church that has occupied the world welcoming Jesus back , the Bible talks about this world getting world getting so bad as in the times of Noah , Noah and his family were the only righteous people among a massive population of wicked people , God saved them through the ark

This is even stated in the early church fathers

This quote is, in a nutshell, the problem with the seven mountain strategy. For context, it is a doctrine that is being taught by those in the apostolic/prophetic movement. There are some pretty major foundational doctrinal issues with this movement. I am not claiming that people in this group are not saved. I know many who are radically in love with Jesus and have no reason to believe that most are not. However, there are also some foundational issues that I see with many in the movement that are leading them astray. Unfortunately, I have already seen these issues lead some that I know personally to a point that I fear for their salvation.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with believers impacting people in their culture and trying to be influential in government, education, etc. We are to be salt and light. But the problem comes when we see ourselves as the anointed forerunners who are called by God to take over these areas and set up a kingdom for Christ to receive when He returns. It is not in agreement with any kind of plain reading of scripture. The 24/7 worship movement is an outflow of this idea as well. They misinterpret the tabernacle of David (Look up what it means in the New Testament...it is plainly stated), and believe that this worship movement is necessary to speak prophetically into the atmosphere to bring Christ back to earth again. Again, there is nothing wrong with desiring to worship God 24/7. At issue is the motive of that worship. What we do is far less important than why we do it. The right actions for the wrong motive are equivalent to the wrong actions.

Hi Dom: you said..
"Try the bible I have laid out verses such as matt 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2"

You realize how useless this is? Ive read Matt 24 and 2 thess about 100 time over the years, none of it demands me to repudiate prayer for Christian influence in any of those 7 areas.
You must also realize the utter laziness of just giving me a text with no interpretation or direction, have me read it and thereby assume what I think is going to match exactly with what you think...the substance of which these texts have nothing to do with?
You must also realize you are saying unless you have the right eschatology you cannot offer the right prayers or influence in the world?
Or maybe you are saying your eschatology forbids you to pray in such manner?
You might also realize that the charismatics and pentacostals are for the most part pre-trib rapturists that would agree with your eschatology but not your stance on the power of God's kingdom.

No, I think you have no real substantive argument against it, only an eschatological view that has no real weight against what they are seeking God to do.

As to claims of coercion and forced removal of people in various places...I need some actual direct quotations in context before I will believe that.

You realize how useless this is? Ive read Matt 24 and 2 thess about 100 time

You clearly havent!

The doctrine invented by Laurence Cunningham and Bill Bright is not just simply a prayer initiative.

THE SEVEN MIND-MOLDERS OF SOCIETY Both Dr. Bill Bright, founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, and Loren Cunningham, founder of Youth With A Mission, received the same revelation from God

around the same period of time: there are seven major realms of influence in society that shape the way we live and think. Kingdom-oriented people must invade these mountains of influence in order for the transformation of society to take place. These mountains are: Ӣ Home Ӣ Church Ӣ Education Ӣ Media (Electronic and Print) Ӣ Government & Politics Ӣ Performing Arts (including Entertainment and Sports) Ӣ Commerce (including Science and Technology).

Wallnau, Lance. Invading Babylon: The 7 Mountain Mandate (pp. 27-28). Destiny Image, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

If you note in this book it is not prayer it is transformation of society!

The whole aspect of influencing people for Christ is against the scriptures as we are commanded in scripture to preach the gospel!

There is something called the Law on Non Contradiction, if I say one thing and something completely contradicts me !

So if the Bible says something and a teacher or prophetess something that clearly contradicts what the bible says they are classed as a false teacher and a false prophet !

Matt 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

In Matt 24

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

it talks about that you shall be hated by all Nations for my names sake! this does not sound like the seven mountain movement as how can you influence society if you are hated by all nations for my names sake, this is Jesus we are talking about!

We as christian

Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

This movement is not an eschatological view it is a view that is directly opposed to scripture!

John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

James 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

It is a different Gospel! It commands us to influence areas rather than preach the Gospel!

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1 Corinthians 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Galatians 1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1 says that if any man preach any other Gospel let him be accursed! We are not commanded to influence the seven mountains we are commanded to preach the Gospel!

We were commanded to "occupy” until He comes (Luke 19:13 KJV). Occupy is a military term. And according to Kingdom values, occupation is always for the purpose of advancement.

Wallnau, Lance. Invading Babylon: The 7 Mountain Mandate (pp. 33-34). Destiny Image, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

This is clearly against scripture we are not commanded to occupy until Jesus returns!

2 Thessalonians

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

How can you occupy when jesus returns he will destroy the Antichrist!

True or false: If the Church is functioning on all cylinders in a way that is pleasing to God, society will be influenced in a positive way.

Then why in the world do we talk about how revivals like the Great Awakening so positively influenced society? If the Church’s business is not making converts then what should it be doing? I don’t think the mandate of Jesus is to sit back and just let society go to hell in a handbasket. This is apart from any seven mountain mandate which I could care less about.

"Then He said, "What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and put in his garden; and it grew and became a large tree, and the birds of the air nested in its branches.” And again He said, "To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”
Luke 13:18-21

I am obviously missing something here. Aren’t many folks today railing about how the moral decline of particularly western society is due to a powerless and ineffective Church? Wasn’t that Ravenhill’s and Tozer’s primary platform”” calling a dead church to repentance?

If they were right about the powerless and ineffective church, wouldn’t it stand to reason that a powerful and effective Church would work to slow the moral decline of society? Why is 2 Chron. 7:14 the rallying cry for revival?

Like I said, I may simply be misunderstanding your overall point.

Brother Frank,
So from your view Christians should not be a godly influence in government or any other of what is referred to as the 7 mountains of society. I believe that you stated one time that you don't vote because you are of another kingdom. I pray and vote for good leaders in our nation because I want to see society move from a humanistic worldview to a Christian worldview, which we at one time had in this nation. Unrighteous leaders make unrighteous laws that are against God's kingdom purposes. You are confusing the world, in which satan is the god of, with society as a whole which is made of people in which Christians are a part of. A society will not change with ungodly men being in charge in government, education, and the business realms. But when Christians that understand how the Kingdom of God operates and are moving in Kingdom authority are put in places of influence in any one of these mountains, then the effect of light and salt which we are called to be will expose the darkness and will be a preserving influence on the corruption in these realms of society.

One of the main goals of the Church ought to be the expansion of the Kingdom of God in the earth. The preaching of the gospel into all the nations of the world. So if the Kingdom of God is being expanded, it cannot help but affect our society. It does matter to God what kind of government that we are living under.

God has told us to pray for all of those in authority (government) so that we might live quiet and peaceable lives in all godliness and holiness. This is well pleasing to God, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3,4). God prefers for us to have good government, rather than a dictatorial, oppressive government. As Derek Prince has said: "Bad government hinders the preaching of the gospel. Good government facilitates the preaching of the gospel."

Proverbs 29:2
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked bears rule, the people mourn.

When the righteous are in authority,.... Or "are increased", either in number or in riches, or in power and dominion; are set in high places, and have the exercise of civil government and the execution of the laws in their hands; for the protection of good men in their civil and religious privileges, and for the punishment of evil men; for the encouraging of all that is good, and for the discouraging of everything that is bad;the people rejoice; the whole body of the people, because of the public good; a state is happy under such an administration; everyone feels and enjoys the advantage of it; see 1 Kings 4:20;

but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn; or "groan" , or "will groan", under their tyranny and oppression, and because of the sad state of things; the number of good men is lessened, being cut off, or obliged to flee; wicked men and wickedness are encouraged and promoted; heavy taxes are laid upon them, and exorbitant demands made and cruelty, injustice, and arbitrary power exercised; and no man's person and property safe; see Proverbs 10:11. - J. Gill

When the righteous are in authority; rather, as in Proverbs 28:28, when the righteous are increased; Vulgate, in multiplicatione justorum. When sinners are put away, and the righteous are in the majority. Septuagint, "when the just are commended." When good men give the tone to society and conduct all affairs according to their own high standard, the peoople rejoice; there is general happiness; prosperity abounds, and voices ring cheerfully (Proverbs 11:10; Proverbs 28:12). When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn; they suffer violence and injustice, and have bitter cause for complaint and lamentation. Pulpit Commentary

Proverbs 14:34
Righteousness exalts a nation, But sin is a disgrace to any people.

Have we gone of topic is this related to the seven mountain mandate movement!

Proverbs 29:2
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked bears rule, the people mourn.

Savannah is this just using commentaries to expound the one proverb from Soloman. This is a great proverb but the problem is with this is logic.

1. The Early Church suffered three hundred years of persecution, most of the bible was written during times of persecution!

This title has been almost literally copied from Tertullian, who in the year 197 wrote: "The blood [of martyrs] is the seed of Christians". The same idea was already to be found in the mid 2nd century in a speech by an unknown author made to the pagan Diogneto: "Do you not see that [the Christians] thrown to the wild beasts - that they may recant the Lord - do not allow themselves to be beaten? Do you not see that the more they are punished, the more the others increase in numbers?" (7, 7-8). One of Tertullian’s contemporaries was Ippolito Romano, who, during the persecutions organised by Septimius Severus, wrote that a large number of men, attracted to the faith by martyrs, also became God’s martyrs (see Commentary to Daniel, II, 38).

This belief of the first Christians was well-founded, because referring to His redeeming death, Jesus said: "unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit" (John 12, 24). The martyrs simply follow the path shown by Jesus, who speaking of Himself said: "I am the way, and the truth and the life" (John 14, 6).

2. The idea that if you have a Christian government therefore everything will be fine.

The wrong idea with this is that if you are in a democracy and the people are evil. They are going to vote for a evil dictator.

Josiah in the Bible was a righteous king! Yet most of the people were wicked underneath him, It delayed Gods Judgement for a while but the nation did not turn away, unfortunately if people want a righteous nation then they better start preaching from the streets.

A revival is when people turn back to the bible and not away from it, when you use the word revival you define it as the seven mountain mandate not what a true revival is!

The other stupid idea is that if you change the government the whole society will change as when the next wicked governement come into power it will completely destroy

3. The Greek word for church means called out, the seven mountain movement asks to remain in the world and influence it, it will fail as the world will only change through the power of the gospel

1577. ekklésia Church- Called Out
The word http://biblehub.com/greek/1577.htm

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

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Then why in the world do we talk about how revivals like the Great Awakening so positively influenced society? If the Church’s business is not making converts then what should it be doing? I don’t think the mandate of Jesus is to sit back and just let society go to hell in a handbasket. This is apart from any seven mountain mandate which I could care less about.

"Then He said, "What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and put in his garden; and it grew and became a large tree, and the birds of the air nested in its branches.” And again He said, "To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”
Luke 13:18-21

Todd you quote Luke 13 but the whole Luke 13 is a bit more interesting

You should have continued reading

Luke 13
22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.

23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence
ye are:

If you care so much about society go to the streets and preach the Gospel!

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

We need to understand what Dominic, Travis and Frank are saying:

John 18:36-37 (KJV)
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Acts 1:6-8 (KJV)
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

There is a big difference in influencing people toward Christ hoping they will believe and be saved than trying to change a culture that is of the world system that will have nothing to do with Jesus being Lord. The very word "church" means to be called out of the world system that is under the control of Satan. This present world age is under the dominion of Satan. When a person gets truly saved, being born of God, he automatically changes from being the enemy of God to now becoming the enemy of the world. Notice the scripture:
James 4:4 (KJV)
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

You cannot make the world christian no more than you can make the devil a christian. The problem with the 7 mountain mandate is not "that we shouldn't try to reach everybody". We are suppose to try and reach everybody but we are also suppose to be separated unto God knowing that God's kingdom is a spiritual kingdom until God destroys Satans world kingdom. Then he will set up His own Kingdom.

The problem with this 7 mountain heresy is the fact that they are trying to do the very thing Jesus told them not to do...and that is try to take over and rule the present world system. We can't force the world to be christian and all the christians who get caught up in trying will be displeasing to God. Most are now focusing on worldy things instead of spiritual things. We must not love the world nor the things in the world or the love of the Father will not be in us! This world is passsing away and the lusts thereof but he who does the will of God shall abide forever.

2 Peter 3:10-18 (KJV)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Blessings to all!

Frank I agree 100% with your last post.

I Dom: Well, this time your responded with something that I can actually address.

No one seems to have any evidence of the Illuminati, so that one's still in the gossip/conspiracy status.

You didn't relate to me how Matthew 24, must oppose Christian influence, prayers or godly men seeking political office. So, I take that as a concession. Your quotation eludes to 'being hated', which we always have been to one degree or another and if you're referring to a specific 'time' of intense hatred, do you have proof it is 'right now'? But in light of Matt 24 and other texts you quote... So even if I am hated, am I not to pray? Or if I believe what sinners do not believe am I to concede that I shouldn't pray for my leaders or seek godly men to lead our communities?

Is it me Dom, or is your eschatology teaching you to fold up your tents and just try to survive the world you live in?
This is in my opinion more telling of your faith in God, not error on their part.

If you know anything about the Charismatics or the Pentecostals' you should know they are all about preaching the gospel. So, their intent is gospel living, gospel preaching and Holy Spirit filled lives lived out in order to do the will of God in the world. They are not less than you in this respect. These are not going to fold up their tents and wait to be martyred, far from it, they are seeking God to preserve their country and preserve their freedoms to preach the gospel. You seem to have down your sword and given your enemy the victory without a fight.

If you've read any of Brother Blaines postings about the current martyrs, none of them have folded their tents, and seek to hide away waiting to die...then quote scriptures that seem to imply their eventual demise.

So what if there is lying wonders, should we stop preaching the gospel to the lost? Should we just let any humanist atheist, evolutionist, vain philosopher have the world...and we Christians do nothing more than concede defeat?

I for one have not subscribed to the 7 mountain movement/prayer/apostles/generals or any of it, but I do recognize when someone is against something for no substantive reason.
What you seem to be doing...and correct me if Im wrong is condemn them as false prophets and teachers, signify your own defeatist attitude toward this world and gospel preaching, then quote large quantities of scripture to validate a position that is against prayer, against Christian involvement, against revival, against bringing hope to people.

The strength of your claims is in the bare assertions they are false...and you are true; and again, they are wrong to pray and believe God for these things...and you wait for a death camp.

lastly you're probably right about my reading of Matt 24 and 2 thess... not being read 100 times; I've read it more than that...and will read it again and again.

Dom, it appears as though you're just proof-texting other Christians into falseness and error when eschatology is not an essential...if it is and we here at SI require a conformity to your specific views...I will have to join the false/heretic/errant/lost with all the others.

I had to re-read this post several times...just because what you're saying is so over the top I didn't want to misunderstand your view.

rbanks: Thank you for the clarification. I think it helps a lot. The only thing I would add is that I am not sure about the motive of those teaching the seven mountain strategy. I am not sure they are trying to force the world to become Christian. I do think, from reading their own publications, that they honestly believe that we have to infiltrate and take over the leadership of these areas to "prepare" the earthly kingdom that Christ will come and assume leadership over. It is a very bizarre idea if you understand what scripture says about what happens when Christ returns. I think their motive is, for the most part, a pure one, but not a scriptural one. Pure in their intentions, but very wrong in their understanding of scripture and how things come to pass in the end. But since their actions are based in Biblical error, they will not produce the fruit they desire.

That being said, I vote, and I feel like it is a good thing to try to elect the most Godly men that we can to public office. I teach in a high school with many Christian teachers. I feel like education is a place where we need Christian administrators and teachers. We need to have as much impact and influence in our world as we can in my opinion. But the reason why is the dividing line in this discussion, I think.

Marvin, et. al. : I would suggest anyone not familiar with this teaching do a little research. I would say that one should NOT go to any websites that shout "heresy!!". Those sites are never a good idea in my opinion. Instead, go to the source and read that firsthand. There are some very alarming doctrines that form the foundation of the apostolic/prophetic movement as a whole. I have read somewhat extensively people like Lance Wallnau, Rick Joyner, Bill Hamon, Bickle at IHOP, and others. If you dig into the foundations of their ideas, they make some very fundamental errors in Biblical interpretation that are, I think, pretty significant. Significant enough that I would recommend that people be careful that they not become involved in this movement. I am not saying for a moment that there are not genuine believers with passionate relationships with God that are part of this movement. However, I have seen many people get led off into really crazy error through this movement, and it always comes back to those foundational errors.

If Brother Banks is right and the effort being made by the adherants to the 7 mountain movement are in effect a type of culturization of people into Christian morals and thinking...it would stand to reason it red-flags some of you and surely does me as well. But, I wonder if that is really what's being done? Are they after re-culturization?

Or are they after a God given move of the Spirit to turn men toward the wisdom and will of God?

I realize Frank and other make powerful points about not getting our priorities mixed, but I wonder too that we seem to be condemning what we all love and know to be God given.

None of this is essentially gospel-ministry preaching
Christians founding
Hospitals
Schools
Colleges
humanitarian outreaches
laws/legislature
modes of justice
modes of imprisonment and execution
fairness in race/sex/economic status
rights to speech and free thought

all of these were not born of the ungodly, the atheist or their humanist, these were born of men who understand the principles by which Christians live and expanded them to be a blessing to the world.

But it seems to me in our haste to reject all but straight up gospel preaching...the Church is not meant to influence the world beyond it's own four walls.
This sort of thing Jesus didn't do, the apostles didn't do...not because they became statemen, but because they recognized the power of their words and testimony influenced and found favor with them that 'hated them'.

Next time you go to a hospital...you may curse it since some Christian who believed in compassion to all men...missed his calling and didn't huddle up waiting to be killed.

Thanks Travis, I will make a concerted effort to clarify intent from their own words...and yes, I don't read the name callers first, they will be justified or condemned by their own words.

Thanks Frank for the insight. So you have heard first hand their dominionism has turned from kingdom of God to kingdom of man? Meaning, instead of gospel ministry gospel proclamation...thereby creating more converts and creating an increasing Christian witness/influence among the masses. You are saying they are attempting an old testament style conquer-the-land and afterwards all things become Israel?

Then if I understand you correctly you are saying the 7 mountain/gates/influencers are not targeted as areas for Holy Spirit gospelizing...but rather targeted as places for some men to position themselves in order to gain power and eventually prominence so that various Churches or organization can exert influence and make decisions?

http://7culturalmountains.org/Theology-of-the-7-Mountains

So I went straight to one of the "horses mouth" and read his theology, I read his ideas on how to solve the cultural issues that face us. Os Hillman does not call this 'DOMINIONISM', he labeled that as a hurtful doctrine.
I read all 4 pages of his theology ( basically proof texts used to launch his activities)

I read several other articles and another blog site describing the 7 mountain movement.

You can read the Os Hillman mandate here.
http://7culturalmountains.org/

When you visit the Change Agent Network you get to see inside exactly where their primary focus is.

I don't know why I didn't sign up for the executive membership at $5500.00 yearly? But that aside.

From the misinterpretation of Isa 2...all the way to the marketing gimmicks presented to the Change-Agents I am terribly disappointed...that something God would certainly do...effect change in the world through gospel ministry and a living gospel witness in our lives is hijacked to extract large sums of money from its adherents and project to them a power-people that seek to be the agents of change.

Oh God how wrong I was about this thing...Thanks Dom, Thanks Frank, Thanks Travis and brother Banks.

What I took at face value as good is an overlay for ecclesiastical power men vying for position.

God have mercy on us.

Something terrible has happened in our society over the last 80-90 years, the freedoms that we have enjoyed have become untied from Christian restraints and are now leading to chaos where all morality becomes relative. At this point it means little if we are talking "right" or "left", the two roads end in the same place, authoritarianism.

I'm not sure we as the church have understood this very well and so the spirit of this age rolls on crushing all we hold dear. We have not taken the spiritual battle, which is our primary struggle, seriously. Neither have we taken the battle here in earth seriously, in our government, schools, communities, and homes.

The spiritual battle works out in space and time on the stage of human history and in every area of human culture. But if we are to win on that stage it will take a commitment to fighting the spiritual battle with the weapons God gives per Ephesians 6.

In Christ,

I have never heard of any sort of "seven mountain mandate." Our mandate is to love the Lord with "all" that we are and to love others as ourselves. Out of this love for God and our neighbors, we do what we can to introduce Christ to others throughout this world.

It isn't a "mountain" and it isn't that complicated.

No man can save another, It is Christ and Christ alone of those given Him by the Father that are saved, even in their destruction, only God is the Glory of Christ' coming and His reign as King over all that is. No one but God can prepare this world for His Kingdom, which is destruction and a new beginning of all that is His World not ours. If you look up mountain in scripture it is akin to kingdom. Really: 7 kingdoms? Not hardly.

In Christ: Phillip

Dom wrote,

"Savannah is this just using commentaries to expound the one proverb from Soloman."

The Proverbs I quoted in my post are not a riddle. Even a kindergartener can understand the plain and straightforward meaning. The commentators merely enhance what is stated.

, "at IHOP they have many 20 and 30 somethings and they certainly believe that they are special and that God is raising them up to be a generation that takes over. Of course I have the exact opposite view."

That is a totally false statement Frank, and you need to back this up with some proof. I am familiar with Mike Bickle's teachings and some of the other teachers at IHOP. I am in a fellowship where the assistant pastor spent several years at IHOP. I have heard him teach on several occassions, and his teachings are not in error, nor does he promote false signs and wonders.

You are making statements about what you believe, but they have no credibility.

2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Notice when the antiChrist is revealed many were deceived by him. The Lord shall destroy him with His Word and with His glorious return to be admired in those saints who truly believed and obeyed the gospel.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2Th 1:11  Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2Th 1:12  That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Many who did not love the truth that would have saved them will be deceived and God will send them strong delusion so they will continue to be deceived because they had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The anti Christ will have power to do miracles and lying wonders. Many of Christendom of the organized Church world will be deceived by thinking the antiChrist is the Messiah. Only the elect remnant will be spared the coming judgment and wrath of God because they truly followed the Lord by staying true to the Lord Jesus Christ and His gospel.

Many will fall away and be deceived by the anti Christ because they didn’t stay separated from the world. All that love the world and the things of the world will be deceived. Many so called Pentecostals of our day are so materialistic and worldly minded that they have forsaken holiness for worldliness. Many don’t even believe anymore that it is still a strait and narrow way that leads to eternal life. The blind are leading the blind.

We have the Carlton Pearson’s leading many into heresy. We have books and movies like "The Shack” that is setting people up for the antiChrist who is coming to give them everything that their flesh desires. Many people are being taught today to believe in a god of love but without truth or holiness. Deception is at an all time high and most churches are either a form of godliness denying the power thereof or it is becoming a place of worldly entertainment to appeal to the world. We are in desperate need of Holy Ghost filled people that will be sent out to reach the lost before it is eternally too late.

Blessings to all!

Listen to Frank , Mike

He lives near IHOP

Dom

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Savannah

I was just trying to wonder what point you were trying to make from this verse as it does not justify the seven mountain mandate as you always tend to interpret old testament passages through the light of the new testament

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Rbanks

Great passages as there was some I forgot as there is so many passages in scripture that goes against this doctrine and I 100 percent agree with you

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Marvin

Praise the lord
You have finally seen through the smokescreen

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To me what worries me about this movement is how prolific this movement is and how it is spread through churches like bethel Redding

One thing I did miss on , is that revival is primarily for the church and not for the world as it is only a byproduct

Brother Frank,
I want to apologize to you for making that statement in anger.

I am in fellowship with older and younger men and women in ministry that have had close ties to IHOP, and they are all lovers of God, rooted and grounded in the Word, and they are not giving themselves over to false signs and wonders. I am also well aware of the Kansas City prophets and what Andrew Strom has said said about them.

I have a heart for the young people, and I believe that the leadership at IHOP does also.

From the discussion on the 7 mountains, there has been both truth and error brought forth. For instance just because someone believes that there are seven mountains of culture to conquer that doesn’t mean that they embrace "Dominion Theology”.
I personally do not believe in dominionism, nor do I believe that conquering the 7 mountains will change society, but what I do believe is that through the fervent prayers of the saints that revival and awakening will have a godly influence on our society.

For many years now I have lead and been connected to intercessors all over the nation. Just as IHOP groups all over the world are worshipping the Lord and praying 24/7, there is continuous worship and prayer going on with strategic prayer calls in which intercessors are praying every hour on the hour. There are also many other streams of prayer that are praying on a consistent basis for revival and awakening. I believe that Greg and the brothers and sisters that he is praying with on the prayer calls have a heart for revival, and I will be praying for the conference in California.

Those that are on the wall of prayer are the ones that are seeking the face of God, hearing from God, and praying "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Those that are in the wall are grieved by what is going on with the Church and nation. This is why we believe and pray for our government and leaders as the Word instructs us to do.

We can no longer sit in our comfortable churches that are totally out of the will of God concerning His purposes and plans. The darkness can only come in where there is an absence of light, and we know that the Son of God was manifested to destroy the works of the devil, and we are called as a Body of believers to do the same thing. After the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples of Jesus, The first priority of the Apostles was the Word and Prayer. We have been called to be a House of Prayer for all nations, so that the gospel can be preached, and not only that men would be saved, but that they would become disciples of Jesus, being confirmed into His image and likeness.

Sent from my iPhone

Brother Mike and others...

I believe that sincere godly people sometimes make mistakes and can get caught up in wrong teaching.

Jesus warned us not to be deceived by what is false.

Now a question, is prayer just something we do for certain things to be changed according to our understanding?

Is not our prayers in vain if it is not according to the will of God?

Take for example the church...is it not in the present world but not of the world...are we not suppose to be pilgrims passing through?

The blessing of Abraham is not earthy possessions but our spiritual heritage in Christ Jesus?

Abraham was told to journey in a land that would one day be given to him on the earth in the Old Testament times but now we are in the New Testament times.

Now in the New Testament times this land is not ours yet because it is ruled by the prince and power of the air but it will one day...after all it’s works are burned up....when there will be a new heaven, earth and Jerusalem.

The problem in trying to Christianize the present world is that many are praying prayers in vain because God said he was going to destroy the world and everything that was not in His spiritual kingdom.

We can’t mix the world with the church but we must be separate from the world. The prayer thy kingdom come and thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven does not mean that we join up with the world or that we take over the world because the time to rule and to reign will be in the new heaven, earth and Jerusalem.

As Christians on the present earth we will always suffer persecution by living godly. We will always not be welcomed by the world but will be an offense to them.

Jesus never tried to take over the world to rule and to reign because he said that His Kingdom was not of this world. Now the body of Christ must follow their leaders example and live godly in this present world looking forward to His glorious appearing then will we rule and reign when he comes back to take over.

We must preach the gospel and witness Christ by the power of the Spirit to reach a lost and dying world...so that they can come out of the world and be a part of the church in the kingdom of God....which is a spiritual relationship with the living God in Christ Jesus.

I have a heart for the young people, and I believe that the leadership at IHOP does also.

Mike: I have absolutely no doubt that this is a true statement. I do not believe the motive of those in this movement are evil. But there is something deeper going on in all of this.

My son attended IHOP for a year. I have friends who sold everything and moved to IHOP and now are part of the leadership structure. My wife and I have been to IHOP countless times and spent time in the prayer room there. I am not speaking from a lack of knowledge.

What I have noticed is something deeper than mere academic error due to a misinterpretation of scripture. There is something spiritually quite off with the apostolic / prophetic movement as a whole. Sure there are believers who are part of it that are solid. I do not dispute that for a moment. I know some of them. But at its core, there is a spiritual deception going on in all of it that is made evident by or perhaps accompanied by some pretty major doctrinal errors.

There is a study series on the IHOP website that deals with the foundational doctrines of that organization. It is really the "how we got here and why we exist" documents. If you study them carefully, you can see the foundational error behind the movement.

And this is not a discussion about IHOP alone. They are only a specific branch of a much bigger tree. That is why I suggest studying carefully the teachings of all of the major leaders in this movement.

Believe me, I would LOVE to be wrong about this. We fellowshipped with a group for about 5 years that was heavily into the whole prophetic movement. Since I was raised in pentecost, I thought the things they spoke of were just other names for the gifts of the Spirit that I was so familiar with. What I learned was that it was a different creature altogether.

I say these things with some hesitancy, because I really want to be wrong. But I have seen, experienced, and studied too much. I am hesitant because I never want to be against any person or people, and I am certainly not one to make it my business to point out what I think are errors. But in this case, I feel like I have to because I am seeing this movement having a very negative effect on so many people, and I have already seen so many people led way off into left field by it.

I hope this came across right. Blessings.

Beautifully summarized brother.

Brother Travis,

I appreciate what you shared and the spirit with what you shared it. I do not agree with everything that Mike Bickle teaches or what goes on at IHOP.

We that are older and have been through many different movements and trends need to be very wise and discerning with the way that we deal with this young generation or we are going to loose them. I see the Spirit of God On many of them. They have an anointing on them to pray and these are the ones that God is going to use to start Holy Spirit fires in the campuses all over America. This young generation is sick and tired of church like we know it, and so am I. These young evangelists and revivalists are looking for something real, and they are finding it in the presence of God. We might not like their music or Lou Engels swaying when he prays, but we better be ready to embrace change, because God is shaking all things, and great change is coming.

Dom wrote,

Savannah

I was just trying to wonder what point you were trying to make from this verse as it does not justify the seven mountain mandate as you always tend to interpret old testament passages through the light of the new testament

________________________________________

Dom,

Absolutely no attempt on my part, or by my post to justify the seven mountain mandate. I never even heard of it until reading it here on SI in this thread.

And as to my interpretating Old Testament through the light and lens of the New, is not a novelty. Jesus Himself, Paul the Apostle, and every New Testament writer did exactly that. It is what the Holy Spirit Himself teaches. To do otherwise will lead to all sorts of error.

We that are older and have been through many different movements and trends need to be very wise and discerning with the way that we deal with this young generation or we are going to loose them. I see the Spirit of God On many of them. They have an anointing on them to pray and these are the ones that God is going to use to start Holy Spirit fires in the campuses all over America. This young generation is sick and tired of church like we know it, and so am I. These young evangelists and revivalists are looking for something real, and they are finding it in the presence of God. We might not like their music or Lou Engels swaying when he prays, but we better be ready to embrace change, because God is shaking all things, and great change is coming.

Mike: I agree 100%. But that is what elders do. We follow God with blazing hearts, radically separated unto Him and radically in love with Him. With that example to the younger, we see in them the gifts and callings of God and we lead them into the same radical walk with God that we have so those gifts can come forth. But this does not happen through any particular "movement". This happens as the elder begin to lead the younger into the reality that we ourselves are pursuing.

I agree 100%. But that is what elders do. We follow God with blazing hearts, radically separated unto Him and radically in love with Him. With that example to the younger, we see in them the gifts and callings of God and we lead them into the same radical walk with God that we have so those gifts can come forth. But this does not happen through any particular "movement". This happens as the elder begin to lead the younger into the reality that we ourselves are pursuing.

Amen Travis! This younger generation needs to be mentored by elders and spiritual fathers.

"He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse." (Malachi 4:6)

Travis said

What I have noticed is something deeper than mere academic error due to a misinterpretation of scripture. There is something spiritually quite off with the apostolic / prophetic movement as a whole

What is it exactly ( if you have discerned the spirit) that is 'off'?

In looking over IHOPKC they state clearly they are not N.A.R. related nor are they teaching dominion theology. They do teach what I would consider re-constructionism or some version of their own.

Appreciate what insights you and Frank have on this.

Savannah

One of the classic rules of hermanuetics is that you always use the new testament to interpret the old,
There are different approaches to hermanuetics whether we are dealing with different texts normally it is the historical , grammatical approach

The thing is hermanuetics comes alot more complicated when you are dealing with the cults as they tend to twist scripture for there own purpose using techniques such as collapsed contexted or maybe techniques there are whole books written on this subject

D a Carson book on scriptures is a good introduction
You have authors like zuck

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Marvin

IHOP is very dangerous , I have read there statement on the NAR , I am actually from a charasmatic background myself , it seems very legitimate but whether it actually meets with actual practise , I grew up with the Toronto blessing movement and know the dangers of the kanses city prophets

I have been worried with some things that Francis Chan has said at bethel and at IHOP

The hard truth about IHOP and Mike bickle
https://youtu.be/AoFCgEfqGWc

To me IHOP is almost a subject for another thread

When I see IHOP I see Toronto blessing style things

I can't deal extensively with this movement in this section as I do research and becuase I am from this background it is just remembering all the sources

I am saying this lovingly

Dom

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When we as christians say people love Jesus what do they mean

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

How do we reconcile the thing as when people say that they love the lord but do they read the Bible as one has to coinside with another .

Here are links to IHOP's Affirmations/Denials and FAQs and their statement of faith:

https://www.ihopkc.org/press-center/category/faq/

https://www.ihopkc.org/about/statement-of-faith/

It is hard to say exactly what I have felt about IHOP. I cannot say that it is a spirit of this or a spirit of that. What I can say is that the foundational reasons for the existence of the ministry are off.

IHOP is an offshoot of the apostolic prophetic movement. It was established primarily by way of prophetic words that were given to Bickle by Bob Jones. While it is its own entity, it does flow with the same water as that stream.

The idea is that 24/7 praise and worship is prophetic. By prophetic, it is believe that this worship calls into being things that are not yet. The belief is that this movement is the fulfillment of Amos 9:11. Those who are part of this movement are the prophetic forerunners of what God is about to bring forth in this earth, and are called, through prophetic declaration in worship, to bring these things to pass. Along with this is the idea that this is part of God's plan to bring global unity and peace and a kingdom for Christ to reign over (For example, this is from a teaching in 2017 dealing with Ethiopia and Egypt.) IHOP is a totally independent ministry and as such is not part of any other group. However, they are part of the same stream of beliefs.

So I am not sure I can totally answer your question, or I fear I cannot answer it to full satisfaction. Wish I could. I would just suggest that a person spend a little but of time on the websites of these ministries and ministers and read what they write. A great deal can be gleaned from that.

I have to be very open and honest and say that this topic is a little bit difficult for me. I never want to be the guy who cries "heresy". But I do have a responsibility to speak truth and be honest when i think there is error. I know and love many people who are involved with the A / P movement and with IHOP. There are many who are strong believers. This is not like I am saying that these people are Mormons or Jehovahs Witnesses and are lost. These are believers who are following a movement that has very shaky foundations. My concern is that when all is shaken, many of them may fall due to the weakness of the foundation. I also am concerned that there is a fundamental spirit of error in this movement that could turn many away from truth in the future.

I hope I am wrong, and would gladly be so.

I think I am not.

I agree that things are "off” in these "prophetic streams.” I think there is a melding of Christianity and new-age-ism. That is how I can best describe it from what I have seen first hand.

IHOP uses this scripture as their basis for their worship and prayer. It is referred to as "Harp and Bowl":
"And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne. When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp, and they held the golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song: "Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.…" (Revelation 5:7-9).

Continuous prayer that is 24/7 also uses the Moravians as an example of a prayer meeting that actually lasted 100 years, and many missionaries were sent out around the world from the Moravians:

"The Moravian Community of Herrnhut in Saxony, in 1727, commenced a round-the-clock "prayer watch” that continued nonstop for over a hundred years."
https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-1/prayer-meeting-that-lasted-100-years.html

If your read the IHOP'S statement of faith, I believe that we would all agree that it is scriptural with some wiggle room concerning endtime eschatology in which many of us would differ.

I believe that there are still Apostles and Prophets in the Church today. I also believe that there are many that are calling themselves Apostles and Prophets that are not the real thing. Many that are Apostles and Prophets do not use a title, but they are functioning as Apostles and Prophets.

I believe that the gift of prophesy should be functioning within the Church today.

The one area that I see a lot of deception within the Prophetic Movement and possibly IHOP is that many Christians are seeking a word from the Lord, and are looking to those that are well known in this movement for guidance.

The main source of guidance for every believer should be the Word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

What I see as the main danger for deception in IHOP and the prophetic movement is that too many are taking prophetic words as "Thus saith the Lord" without judging them by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit, who is our teacher, and the One that has come to lead us into all truth.

One thing you may not know IHOP is mentioned by CARM as a cult!

The International House of Prayer (IHOP)
https://carm.org/ihop

I have read the statement regarding what they think of the NAR

What is IHOPKC’s stance on the New Apostolic Reformation?
https://www.ihopkc.org/press-center/faq/ihopkc-part-new-apostolic-reformation/

My worrying statements come from Joels Army Statements

What does IHOPKC believe about "Joel’s Army”?
https://www.ihopkc.org/press-center/faq/ihopkc-believe-joels-army/

There are some other statements in this FAQ section that are blatently unbibical

The Mike Bickle and IHOP Cornucopia of False Teaching, Bridal Weirdness and 24/7 Confusion
http://www.piratechristian.com/messedupchurch/2016/12/the-mike-bickle-and-ihop-cornucopia-of-false-teaching-bridal-weirdness-and-confusion

it is interesting with Steve Kozar as his daughter went to IHOP and lost her salvation!

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In the book
A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement14 Nov 2014
by R. Douglas Geivett and Holly Pivec
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_14?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=new+apostolic+reformation&sprefix=New+Apostolic+%2Caps%2C276&crid=2W6ZCRL73YKON&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Anew+apostolic+reformation

One prominent prophet-guided organization is the International House of Prayer (IHOP), which was founded based on prophetic words””described as IHOP’s blueprints””given by US prophet Bob Jones.252 IHOP is advised by a prophetic network made up of about 250 people under the oversight of a Prophetic Council.253 Individual prophets also provide guidance for apostolic networks of hundreds, and sometimes thousands, of churches. One such US prophet is James Goll, the official prophet for Harvest International Ministry (HIM), an apostolic network of more than 20,000 churches in 50 nations.

Geivett, R. Douglas. A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement (Kindle Locations 1976-1982). Weaver Book Company. Kindle Edition.

In 1991, Bob Jones confessed to sexual misconduct and the abuse of his prophetic office. This misconduct reportedly "consisted of encouraging women to undress in his office so they could stand ‘naked before the Lord’ in order to receive a [prophetic] ‘word.’”380 Despite such a gross abuse of his office, he remained influential as a prophet in NAR until his death in 2014. In a popular IHOP teaching series, Mike Bickle referred to him as one of his "two spiritual fathers through all these years.”381 Jones was so revered in NAR that his memorial service

Geivett, R. Douglas. A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement (Kindle Locations 2848-2854). Weaver Book Company. Kindle Edition.

NAR teaching is that the miracles performed by the end-time church under the leadership of the new apostles and prophets will be unprecedented, both in terms of their grandeur and their frequency. Mike Bickle, founder of IHOP, pronounces, "The end times is the Church’s finest hour, when miracles will occur and supernatural prophetic direction will be released. The miracles of Acts and Exodus will be multiplied and combined on a global level.” He grounds this claim in Micah 7:15.485

Geivett, R. Douglas. A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement (Kindle Locations 3510-3515). Weaver Book Company. Kindle Edition.

Under the leadership of NAR apostles and prophets, the church is to become a miracle-working army that will usher in God’s kingdom. This army goes by various names, including Joel’s Army, based on NAR interpretations of Joel 2,480 and the Manifest Sons of God, based on a NAR interpretation of Romans 8:19.481 Belief in miracles as a contemporary phenomenon is not unique to NAR.

Geivett, R. Douglas. A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement (Kindle Locations 3491-3496). Weaver Book Company. Kindle Edition.

it is interesting testing this against this
https://www.ihopkc.org/press-center/faq/ihopkc-believe-joels-army/

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Ministry Time with Bill Johnson, Mike Bickle and Todd White (Onething )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKnZXblDAd4

Screams NAR

In my opinion, when Jesus spoke of the time of great tribulation etc. he was referring to the catastrophic events that would occur in the Jewish war that culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Jesus stated quite clearly that all of these events were to happen before "this generation" (i.e. those folk to whom he was speaking) would all die. Following this time of tribulation, Jesus would rule until all would be placed under his feet and then, as Paul wrote, the Kingdom would be handed to the Father. This is the time when the spring rising from the Temple grows into a mighty river that refreshes the Dead Sea and the rock not cut by human hands grows into a mountain filling the Earth. The prophecy of the spring is, I believe, symbolic. The Temple is the church, the spring is the growing Kingdom and the Dead Sea is the world which shall be refreshed and transformed into the Kingdom on Earth. The rock not cut by human hands is the Kingdom beginning with Jesus and then drawing in all of society.
We are now living in the "1,000 years" but this is also the time of Armageddon; both exist together, but Armageddon is not a literal (physical) war. It is what the controversial 17thC Quaker James Nayler termed "the Lamb's war". It is Jesus symbolically riding the White Horse of victory, conquering all that opposes him both within individual people and within the spheres of influence of society until God is all in all.
This understanding does not depend on the false doctrine of dominionism, but on a realization that Jesus is ruling NOW from (not just in) Heaven and is present with us as our Lord and Teacher. If Christians within the spheres of influence would just meet together to prayerfully and meditatively seek consensus on what is God's will for the gentle guiding of that sphere, we would all witness the rule of Christ expanding within society until the great Day of the Lord.