I dont know how I would survive the Tribulation

Revelation 13:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Sorry for all the Pre Tribulation as you do not believe in this !

I am just arguing from a Post Tribulation and everyone else who thinks that they will go through the Tribulation.

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

I do not believe the Tribulation will be until the Antichrist sits in the Temple !
Most people are hoarding for the Tribulation, What do you do when the Antichrist controls the whole world!

I always marvel how I got through from one year to another

"And they OVERCAME him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony and they did not love their lives to the death." (Rev 12:11)

Unlike tribulation in general, as the church by definition is a tribulation people, the ‘great’ tribulation is much more particularly the great transition between this age and the age to come. This is why the great tribulation is compared to a final travail unto the birth of the new age of covenant promise. Also called the time of Jacob’s trouble and ‘Zion’s travail’, the unequaled tribulation ends with the birth of Israel and the translation of the church. This is very significant, because this convergence is not only because Jesus returns at this time, but because of what God has accomplished in these two, elect entities.

In the case of Israel, the beleaguered remnant according to the election of grace has been brought finally, and fully to "the end of their power” (Deut 32:36; Dan 12:7) in preparation to look upon Him whom they pierced when He comes in the clouds (Zech 12:10; Mt 23:39; 24:30; Acts 3:21; Ro 11:26; Rev 1:7). In the case of the church, a process of revelation and experience of divine power in the furnace of affliction has brought the corporate body of Christ to its promised eschatological perfection (Dan 11:32-33, 35; 12:3, 10; Jn 17:23; Eph 4:13; Heb 4:9; 1Jn 4:18; Rev 12:11; 19:7).

This twin event of birth and resurrection at Jesus’ return begins the liberation of the creation described in Ro 8:20, which we see as realized in two stages, pre and post millennial (Isa 24:22; Ro 8:20; Rev 20). All of this means the end of the age is not only waiting on the completion of His purpose to bring Israel back to Him, not only His intention to fully reveal the mystery of iniquity, but His intention to perfect His corporate servant, the church, in a final demonstration before principalities and powers. I call this the ‘final straightening of the church’.

The tribulation, with its clearly marked certainty of the time, and abundance of unsealed revelation and prophetic fulfillment, will function as a kind of birthing canal, emptying not only Israel but the church of their power. This is why I believe we should see the enormous use that God has invested in the first half of the week.

What God has invested in giving the church the critical preparation of the first half of the week is exactly WHY the church will be straightened and prepared for the great transition that takes place at the beginning of the second half. This time will mark Michael’s clearing the heaven of Satan’s hindering presence (Rev 12:7-14 with Dan 12:1).

This brings Satan down for his ‘short time’ (Rev 12:12), but it also signals the time that the two witnesses receive their power, but not ONLY the two witnesses, but a whole body of ‘maskilim’ who receive strength and power at precisely the same time that Michael is evicting Satan (Rev 12:10-11). These who "love not their lives unto the death” are shown in Daniel’s prophecy to be receiving this power to "be strong and do great exploits and instruct many” at the very time the abomination is being placed that begins the unequaled time of trouble (Dan 11:31-33; 12:1-2, 7, 11). It is no accident that THIS is the very time the two witnesses are receiving their power for final tribulation witness.

I hope we can see this. It cannot be too greatly stressed that this great transition at the mid-point of Daniel’s final week is, not only the time that Satan is being thrust out of heaven and confined to earth for his ‘short time’ of unparalleled destruction; it is the same time the daily sacrifice is being taken away and the abomination of desolation placed in Judea to begin the great tribulation, just 3 1/2 years before "the end” (Dan 9:27; 12:7, 11). We must not miss this connection! Michael’s heavenly victory results, not only in woe for the earth, but in great anointing of power coming upon the church for the final testimony that results in a multitude beyond human ability to count coming out of ‘the tribulation, the great one’ (Rev 7:9, 13-14).

As Jesus saw His appointed hour, those of understanding will see and prophetically apprehend the approaching test for all its unparalleled requirement. As the door of the last seven years is shut firmly behind us, many more of the awakening body of Christ will begin to foresee the evil and dig down deep, greatly hiding herself in Christ, knowing her natural inability to stand in the evil day. This will prepare and fit the church, not only for her final purification and perfection unto translation at Jesus’ return, but her ultimate testimony to the nations, more than at any other time moving Israel to jealousy.

As Jesus said of Peter, I believe it can be prophetically said of the church of the last hour, that another will take her and lead her where she would not have gone, even to a corporate cross of obedience unto death (Rev 12:11). So the purification of the saints of the last and unequaled tribulation is unto a divinely ordained perfection that ends in translation, with the removal of the veil cast over all nations (Isa 25:7-8; Rev 10:7). I am suggesting that the testing of the church, I would call it the great emptying of the church, is not unrelated to the veil that is spread over the nations being removed with the finishing of the mystery of God at Jesus’ return (Isa 25:7; Rev 10:7). There is something about the relation of revelation "at the end of power”, which is to say at the end of human self sufficiency, which must always removed as a necessary prerequisite for resurrection.

(Reggie Kelly - June, 2018)

deltadom
I do not believe the Tribulation will be until the Antichrist sits in the Temple !
Most people are hoarding for the Tribulation, What do you do when the Antichrist controls the whole world!

deltadom
I always marvel how I got through from one year to another

God bless,
Lisa

Short answer is, you don't try to survive it:

Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Dominic, I wouldn't be preoccupied with the Great Tribulation. Think of the Korean saints who have endured oppression from the Japanese from 1910-45 & the North Korean Christians who have suffered torture, imprisonment, & (near) death from the communist Kim dynasty from 1948 to this day. To them surviving a seven year Tribulation would be a joy compared to a lifetime of privation & the harshest treatment which is unending until premature death or old age. We really need to pray for them regularly.

I think this is good advice. If I have an close and intimate relationship with God through Jesus Christ, if I am accustomed to walking in total reliance on God through His Holy Spirit, if I am consistently trusting Him for everything in my life now, then I have nothing to worry about during any time of persecution or tribulation...even if I must give my very life for Him. His grace is sufficient and His supply is boundless.

/Docs, the article you quoted indicates that God will perfect the church through suffering in the Great Tribulation. However, so many saints have already escaped the Tribulation by dying in millennia prior to that event---therefore these "spirits of just men made perfect" did not & shall not go through that experience---and therefore the rationale of that article is faulty. Those dead in Christ will rise in the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) with nothing lacking./

The article in my opinion does not speak against the church of past generations and their supposed lack of perfection until the church of the last generation is perfected. I assume God brings the church of each generation to a degree of maturity and perfection as fits His purposes. No, the church of past generations did not experience the Great Tribulation but scriptural examination shows who WILL experience the last and unparalleled Tribulation (Daniel 21:1, Matt 24:21, Rev 7:14). That is the generation and part of the church that the article mainly speaks to.

"As Jesus saw His appointed hour, those of understanding (a prophetically literate and understanding church) will see and prophetically apprehend the approaching test for all its unparalleled requirement. As the door of the last seven years is shut firmly behind us, many more of the awakening body of Christ will begin to foresee the evil and dig down deep, GREATLY HIDING HERSELF IN CHRIST (emphasis docs), knowing her natural inability to stand in the evil day. This will prepare and fit the church, not only for her final purification and perfection unto translation at Jesus’ return, but her ultimate testimony to the nations, more than at any other time moving Israel to jealousy. "

"In the case of the church, a process of revelation and experience of divine power in the furnace of affliction has brought the corporate body of Christ to its promised eschatological perfection (Dan 11:32-33, 35; 12:3, 10; Jn 17:23; Eph 4:13; Heb 4:9; 1Jn 4:18; Rev 12:11; 19:7).”

In many cases the church has relegated clear and precise scriptural statements of "the” great and final tribulation to something of a general statement covering all of church history instead of a time of unequaled testing to occur at the end of the age. None of this in any way denies the suffering and perfection of past church generations which should be a source of sober reverence for us all. I'm just wagering that scriptural portrayals of never before seen or experienced tribulation at the end of the age means never before seen or experienced tribulation at the end of the age. Through this the church of the final of the final days will mainly be stripped of its still dormant tendency to depend on its own self strength which is nothing more than reliance on the flesh. When it passes through this unavoidable and necessary affliction and death then the glory of the Lord will rise upon in true resurrection life it as it has been straitened and fitted for its eschatological destiny.

//I’m just wagering that scriptural portrayals of never before seen or experienced tribulation at the end of the age means never before seen or experienced tribulation at the end of the age.//

How will a person know when this is occurring? In other words how would a person know there is not something far worse coming, perhaps many many years in the future?

And how can it be applied blanketly to all Christians when Christians in some countries have been subjected to great persecution, torture and death for many years? What tribulation is greater than torture and brutalizations of loved ones and family members?

It was Jesus Himself who gave us the key to understanding the time of the approaching end of the age by referring us specifically to the writings of the prophet Daniel. It was Christ who encouraged us to reference these writings.

15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet (Daniel 8:13;9:27;11:29;12:11) standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

21 For then (after the abomination of desolation takes place) there will be a GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS HAS NOT OCCURRED since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Jesus is quoting almost verbatim from the writings of Daniel in Daniel 12:1 where Daniel prophesies a TIME OF DISTRESS SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION.

Daniel 12:2 is a passage that most commentators agree is the most clear passage in the entire Old Testament that refers to the resurrection of the dead. So the unequaled time of distress Daniel describes in Daniel 12:1 is followed in the very next verse by a description of the resurrection of the dead. So the time of distress unequaled is followed in close time proximity by the resurrection which is at the end of the age.

Many Jewish people have referred to this time as the "footsteps of the Messiah." Meaning they believe the coming of the Jewish Messiah will be preceded by a time of trouble of never before seen for its scope and intensity yet out of which Israel will be saved and delivered. This is the context which many in today's church have lost sight of because of attempting to "reinterpret" the plain meaning of these eschatological scriptures.

The key, which Jesus Himself directed us to for clarity, is found in Matthew 24:15. When this occurs (when you "see") then the Great Tribulation surpassing all others will begin. Jesus gave us a unmistakable and very clear clue as to what to look for. He gave His church the key to know and understand these times that are to come. "Behold, I have told you all things in advance."

"Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
Matthew 24:15-17

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
Luke 21:20-21
______________________

Now we have to do a little algebra.

In algebra, if a=b and b=c, then a=c.

In Matthew the "abomination of desolation” (a) is what signals it’s time to take flight (b).

In Luke, "Jerusalem surrounded by armies” (c) is the signal to take flight (b)

Therefore, a=c. In other words, Jerusalem surrounded by the pagan gentile Roman army IS the abomination of desolation.

Thank you for your comments. I'm glad you are interested.

/"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains."

Docs, Jesus said that TO Jews ABOUT Jews in Judea. It already happened in 70 A.D./

Are there Jews in Judea today?

I believe Christ in His speaking to those of that generation was following the almost classic mode in which many of the prophets spoke. Meaning, what the prophet spoke would come to pass in the immediate life of the prophet or soon thereafter only to later be completely and exhaustively fulfilled in the distant eschatological future. It's termed by scholars and theologians as near/far fulfillment. Such luminaries as John Calvin, George Eldon Ladd and others endorsed this view of near/far fulfillment or sensus pleior as it is sometimes referred to. So Jesus, in the classic mode of prophetic utterance employed by many of the prophets, could have been speaking to his generation while speaking also into a generation the eschatological future. Certainly there are Jews in Judea today that run the high risk of eventually being surrounded by hostile Gentile armies. Then the prophecies of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse will have reached a exhaustive fulfillment in the eschatological future.

/Some Bible scholars think the (earthly) church is no longer referred to after chapter 4 of Revelation, that the remaining chapters are about the Jews on earth during the tribulation, and whether they come to know their Messiah, or not./

I don't deny that but it can also be pointed out that many scholars don't believe that. Also, many average lay people who promote the view of a pre-trib rapture don't realize that this view as promoted by its more prominent and famous adherents also promote the view that Jews or anyone saved during the tribulation are not part of the church. I constantly wonder how anyone saved during the tribulation by faith in Christ and His cleansing blood are not part of the church. This view, widely promoted and accepted, that tribulation saints are not to be part of the church, was never heard of in the slightest form before the 1830s.

If we all are to be raptured and changed and put on immortality at the last trumptet (I Cor 15:51-52) how can there be a last trumpet at a pre-trib rapture when the church is raptured and puts on immortality and then seven years or so later there be another last trumpet when those who perished during the tribulation are raised and raptured and put on immortality? How many "last" trumpets can there be? Does last according to Paul really mean last? The last trumpet I see anywhere is referred to in Matt 24:31 at the second coming of Jesus. How could there have been a last trumpet seven years before at a pre-trib rapture when there was still another trumpet to occur seven years later? The last trumpet of Matthew 24:31 occurs AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days as seen in Matthew 24:29. So I maintain that the entire church of the ages, living and dead, will be raised and raptured and put on immortality at the last trumpet that occurs AFTER the tribulation of those days and at the second coming of Christ. None of this was even a matter of debate before the very late arrival of pre-tribulationism that began as recently in church history as the 1830s.

/Many of the preachers featured on this site (B. H. Clendennen, David Wilkerson, Leonard Ravenhill, etc.) held to a pre-trib view of the Rapture, whereas others (Zac Poonen) hold to a post-trib view./

I admit I do not know what many of these men believe but I would be of a post-trib view as Zac Poonen is. The timing of the last trumpet (after the tribulation of those days)and what occurs at the last trumpet(all believers living and dead putting on immortality) is in my opinion a great gift of clarity for a church wanting to understand and be properly prepared.

Thank you and blessings.

I think almost all of Rev is talking about the papacy and world systems in general.

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Read Chapter 5 as most people stop at Chapter 4

1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

What is the Day of the Lord

Isaiah 13:9-10\t

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light.
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A personal opinion & nothing more: we may be quite far off yet from the Tribulation. Where is the USA in Revelation? Outside of Israel, Europe. Africa (Egypt in particular),& Asia, only the isles warrant a brief mention. It may be that the USA has to economically fall & no longer be a superpower, but a Third World Nation before these things take place. China & Japan already purchased 44% of the US national debt. Some think the Great City that the merchants of the earth bewail is NYC or the contiguous United States. Others feel it is "mother Rome" or the Vatican (as the Reformers did). We'll see, if not here, then hereafter.
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Scripturial evidence please as I wanted to talk about the Great Tribulation, the Pre Trib Rapture is a side question as I do not believe in it and I think it is a red herring

Thank you for your comments. I'm glad you are interested.

/"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains."

Docs, Jesus said that TO Jews ABOUT Jews in Judea. It already happened in 70 A.D./

Are there Jews in Judea today?

I believe Christ in His speaking to those of that generation was following the almost classic mode in which many of the prophets spoke. Meaning, what the prophet spoke would come to pass in the immediate life of the prophet or soon thereafter only to later be completely and exhaustively fulfilled in the distant eschatological future. It's termed by scholars and theologians as near/far fulfillment. Such luminaries as John Calvin, George Eldon Ladd and others endorsed this view of near/far fulfillment or sensus pleior as it is sometimes referred to. So Jesus, in the classic mode of prophetic utterance employed by many of the prophets, could have been speaking to his generation while speaking also into a generation the eschatological future. Certainly there are Jews in Judea today that run the high risk of eventually being surrounded by hostile Gentile armies. Then the prophecies of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse will have reached a exhaustive fulfillment in the eschatological future.
---------------------------------------

There are problems with this aswell with the Preterist or the Historist question ! I know it held among the reformed !
I was going to

But that the Church is one, the Holy Spirit declares in the Song of Songs, saying, in the person of Christ, "My dove, my undefiled, is one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her.” Concerning which also He says again, "A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring sealed up, a well of living water.” But if the spouse of Christ, which is the Church, is a garden enclosed; a thing that is closed up cannot lie open to strangers and profane persons. And if it is a fountain sealed, he who, being placed without has no access to the spring, can neither drink thence nor be sealed. And the well also of living water, if it is one and the same within, he who is placed without cannot be quickened and sanctified from that water of which it is only granted to those who are within to make any use, or to drink. Peter also, showing this, set forth that the Church is one, and that only they who are in the Church can be baptized; and said, "In the ark of Noah, few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water; the like figure where-unto even baptism shall save you;” proving and attesting that the one ark of Noah was a type of the one Church. If, then, in that baptism of the world thus expiated and purified, he who was not in the ark of Noah could be saved by water, he who is not in the Church to which alone

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This is from Ireninius stating that the Tribulation is to purify the church ! I hate the view that God would not send his bride through wrath!

I know I am arguing against pre trib rapture! With the preterist and hisorist view , How do you deal with the fact that when jesus returns he will destroy the antichrist and the antichrist is around during the time of the Tribulation.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I class myself as a Historic Premillenist and Post Trib

The reason I brought this subject up, is we are so used to money, how are we going to survive when we cant buy anything, persecution is widespread around the world?
How many christian ministries ask for Donations for ministry what happens when that does not happen and you cant get sermons on line !
When you cannot eat or drink or put through torture!

The distinction to be made between the righteous and the wicked. The future apostasy in the time of Antichrist, and the end of the world 1. Inasmuch, then, as in this world (aioni) some persons betake themselves to the light, and by faith unite themselves with God, but others shun the light, and separate themselves from God, the Word of God comes preparing a fit habitation for both. For those indeed who are in the light, that they may derive enjoyment from it, and from the good things contained in it; but for those in darkness, that they may partake in its calamities. And on this account He says, that those upon the right hand are called into the kingdom of heaven, but that those on the left He will send into eternal fire for they have deprived themselves of all good. 2. And for this reason the apostle says: "Because they received not the love of God, that they might be saved, therefore God shall also send them the operation of error, that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but consented to unrighteousness.” For when he (Antichrist) is come, and of his own accord concentrates in his own person the apostasy, and accomplishes whatever he shall do according to his own will and choice, sitting also in the temple of God, so that his dupes may adore him as the Christ; wherefore also shall he deservedly "be cast into the lake of fire:” [this will happen according to divine appointment], God by His prescience foreseeing all this, and at the proper time sending such a man, "that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but consented to unrighteousness;” whose coming John has thus described in the Apocalypse: "And the beast which I had seen was like unto a leopard, and his feet as of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion; and the dragon conferred his own power upon him, and his throne, and great might. And one of his heads was as it were slain unto death; and his deadly wound was healed, and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon because he gave power to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto this beast, and who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things, and blasphemy and power was given to him during forty and two months. And he opened his mouth for blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation. And all who dwell upon the earth worshipped him, [every one] whose name was not written in the book of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any one have ears, let him hear. If any one shall lead into captivity, he shall go into captivity. If any shall slay with the sword, he must be slain with the sword. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.” After this he likewise describes his armour-bearer, whom he also terms a false prophet: "He spake as a dragon, and exercised all the power of the first beast in his sight, and caused the earth, and those that dwell therein, to adore the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he shall perform great wonders, so that he can even cause fire to descend from heaven upon the earth in the sight of men, and he shall lead the inhabitants of the earth astray.” Let no one imagine that he performs these wonders by divine power, but by the working of magic. And we must not be surprised if, since the demons and apostate spirits are at his service, he through their means performs wonders, by which he leads the inhabitants of the earth astray. John says further: "And he shall order an image of the beast to be made, and he shall give breath to the image, so that the image shall speak; and he shall cause those to be slain who will not adore it.” He says also: "And he will cause a mark [to be put] in the forehead and in the right hand, that no one may be able to buy or sell, unless he who has the mark of the name of the beast or the number of his name; and the number is six hundred and sixty-six,” that is, six times a hundred, six times ten, and six units. [He gives this] as a summing up of the whole of that apostasy which has taken place during six thousand years.

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Try and find these quotes from an actual book as I am actually quoting from them as they selective quote early church fathers without reading the context like with irenaus who I quoted

Why would the early church fathers who are going through persecution ever actually as they do not stray away from it calling it a purifying of the church

You still have not dealt with the passages as in Thessalonians it specifically says when the rapture , resurrection will have which will be the day of the lord in 1 Thessalonians 5 , when it says the day of the lord comes as a thief in the night

To be there is no biblical grounding for the rapture

As you cannot use types or allegory to justify a doctrine.

/David (Docs), the apostle Paul wrote to the church of Thessalonica, "And we who are alive & remain will be caught up together to meet Him in the air." Paul allowed that the Rapture could happen in his lifetime. It is the blessed hope. We are to purify ourselves with this hope./

I understand that fully. The question is since everyone believes in a rapture when does it occur? The timing of the last trumpet (I Cor 15:51-52) settles it for me. That is when saints living and dead are glorified. The pre-trib view provides no adequate answer for how there can be a last trumpet at which all saints living and dead are raised and glorified before the tribulation only to be followed by another trumpet at the end of the tribulation seven or so years later at Christ's second coming. Matthew 24;29-31 clearly states that after the tribulation of those days (verse 29) there will be another trumpet at the second coming (verse 31) So how can a trumpet seven years earlier be the last trumpet at which saints are changed when there is still another trumpet to come at the second coming. What does last mean? There cannot be two last trumpets.

/Saints, whether Jew or Gentile, during the Tribulation are still saints./

Not according to John Darby, Dwight Pentecost, Chafer, Hal Lindsay, John Hagee and many other leading advocates for a pre-trib rapture. They taught and still teach that no one can become a saint, a member of the church, after a pre-trib rapture.

Quoting Darby,

"The Jewish nation is never to enter the Church." (J. N. Darby - from "The Hope of the Church of God." - page 106)

And they teach that those saved during the tribulation will not be indwelled by the Holy Spirit yet they fail to explain how one can be saved, born again and regenerated without the indwelling Holy Spirit. Many lay people who follow the pre-trib view are not aware of this.

/Therefore, a=c. In other words, Jerusalem surrounded by the pagan gentile Roman army IS the abomination of desolation./

The abomination is clearly portrayed as being done by a single person - a He and not an army (II Thess 2:3-4 compared with Daniel 11:36). When this personage, this He, performs the desolation and exalts himself above every god then he will unleash his wrath upon Israel and the church of God. His coalition of forces will descend upon Israel (Ezekiel 38) and persecution against the Jewish nation and the church will bring a unprecedented time of trouble such as never has been seen. The abomination of desolation will result in the final desolations of Jerusalem as it is surrounded by the hostile armies of the man of sin.

Thanks David but you have not addressed the texts themselves. How do you explain the Mathew and Luke texts? It seems clear that the abomination that caused desolation was the pagan Roman armies.

PS. As an aside, Titus did set up a pagan statue in the temple when he conquered Jerusalem.

The abomination of desolation will result in the final desolations of Jerusalem as it is surrounded by the hostile armies of the man of sin. Luke's passage speaks of the desolations of Jerusalem but they were to occur after the abomination of desolation.

That was my explanation which seems pretty clear. The long help Jewish prophetic expectation was that when their final eschatological enemy raised himself above all gods (Daniel 11:36) that he would unleash a final assault on Jerusalem and Jerusalem would experience a final set of desolations yet Israel and Jerusalem would eventually be saved out of it. (Isaiah 4:2-3;Daniel 12:1;Joel 3:16-17). Prophetically we have come full circle and for the first time in almost two thousand years there is a Jewish presence in Judea ("let those in Judea flee") and there is strong likelihood Jerusalem will once again be surrounded by hostile armies intent on Jerusalem's destruction.

The man of sin is destroyed at Christ's return (Isaiah 11:4;II Thess 2:8)and I'm quite certain that Titus was not destroyed by Christ at His second coming. Not to mention that Matthew 24 ends in the second coming of Christ when the last trumpet is blown and the saints are gathered together to Him at the rapture (Matthew 24:31).

Thank you and I will read the article by Hunt.

I remain intrigued also by the timing of the last trumpet. How can there be a last trumpet at a pre-trib rapture when all saints living and dead put on immortality only to be followed by another trumpet at Christ's second coming when tribulalation saints living and dead put on immortality?

What if Dave Hunt is wrong?

There is enough unclarity o this issue that certainty is not possible.

Perhaps the best policy is to hope for the best but expect the worst.

/There is enough unclarity on this issue that certainty is not possible.

Perhaps the best policy is to hope for the best but expect the worst./

Is that really though the view that scriptures present? One of the fallacies that the church has come to embrace is that there is nothing regarding eschatology that can be known for certain so just be ready. If that is so, why do the prophetic scriptures portray a church that isn't in the dark and is full of understanding as to what is occurring around them? Just hoping is a issue of the mind and is important yet faith comes from the heart and causes hope to gird and fill the mind. Hope comes from faith. I would think God prefers a hopeful people in the end whose hope comes from a solid deposit of faith in their heart that comes from them having become prophetically literate instead of embracing the notion the best they can hope for in the end is to grope along not really knowing anything for certainty.

Yes David but surely you realize that there are multiple views on this issue and that absolute certainty is not possible? Even Paul was not absolutely certain.

With Dave hunts article he argues apriory that there is a rapture and the second coming , it is a false dichotomy. When you study the passages for yourself you have a
problem

Matt 24
winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

My main problem is in Matt 24 Jesus says as the lightning comes from the east unto the west so shall the sign of the son of man be and he says that if any person comes before that time he is a false christ or false prophet

Some pre tribulation IST say this is for the Jews , my problem with this , the passage in revelation 20 and 2 Thessalonians line up

So if Jesus comes before his second coming he is classed as the antichrist , which includes things like the rapture

The argument from silience in revelation is such a bad argument

Revelation 1

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

To assume that John is the church is such a bad argument , the book of Esther does not mention God so should we not include it in the old testament or tanacke

You have also the fact that in Thessalonians it mentions the last trumpet , to me the argument of the pre tribulation rapture is like a house built on sand

My problem is that this doctrine to people who love the Jewish people that christians will be not be there during the time of great persecution for both the Christians and Jews

Tribulation is happening now and you could argue why has the believers in North Korea not been raptured , the pre tribulation is such a western doctrine

Another argument was why are we not in the tribulation now , one thing the abomination of desolation has not happened you do not have the antichrist sitting in the third temple and it has not been built yet

Worldwide persecution of Christians has not happened yet
According to Matt 24 it starts with the abomination of desolation.

I more wanted to concentrate on the fact could you live without money or the specifics of the tribulation are quite brutal

//I more wanted to concentrate on the fact could you live without money or the specifics of the tribulation are quite brutal//

Whether we live or not is up to the Lord, right?

I am not a survivalist with bunkers and weapons stockades in the woods somewhere.

Sorry but this thread is not to do with the aspect of the pre tribulation rapture I have dealt with that on another thread

This thread does not deal with the subject of old earth and young earth

In the Old Testament days who understood that the Messiah would come twice? Even in subsequent years many rabbis have been mystified that the Messiah was prophesied to be a suffering servant in some passages, & to be a king who would rule over the nation's in others. With 20/20 hindsight the answer is obvious....and so shall it likely be with all else.

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No they have not , most rabbi's tend to follow people like Maimonides and in Maimonides writings he has specific requirements for the Messiah, most modern rabbi's tend to
believe in so many different concepts on whether you are reformed or lubavitch , it is not a clear concept of two messiahs even among first century Jewish literature. Which I have read.

If you are interested Dr Henry Abramson has a primer on some of the rabbi's such as people like Rashi to some of the lubavitch rabbi's

The church that I went to was in the heart of Golders green linked to berean call, Tony pierce who I used to have a discussion with about the pre tribulation rapture , yacov prasch profoundly disagrees on the lines of a pre tribulation rapture

I find it upsetting that you have to use an adhonim attack on me.

The reason I quote sloppily is that I am quoting is primary sources and that is what does not tend to happen on this subject , people do not tend to read the whole of Matt 24

https://youtu.be/qXO2MiWYUis

My grammar tends to be better when using my computer than a mobile phone

My issue with the tribulation is that is worldwide persecution of Christians , according to the bible it starts with the abomination of desolation and the antichrist sitting in the temple calling himself as god.
We live in a world where everything is monitored , we know the mark of the beast will be introduced at this time
I was not paid this week due to an error and it has upset my finances.
It seems to me the whole area of the great tribulation has not been studied theologically to an depth is due to the fact of preterism, dominion theology , pre tribulational theology.
To me it seems a distraction, the pre tribulation rapture expects Jesus to come first before the antichrist and poses many problems as in Thessalonians 2. Jesus destroys the Antichrist by the brightness of his coming.

As most theology tends to come from America , countries that tend to be going through persecution or some form of it tend to be forgotten becuase of theological leanings towards pre tribulational theology.

I so want to deal with the fact that we have the things like the two witnesses in revelation that perform plagues on the earth before Jesus return and so there is a witness

To me I find it scary that there will be an antichrist who will rule this world, a totalitarian regime. That he will pretend to be Jesus . This what upsets me of the fact of dominion and pre tribulation theology is that will they be decieved by the antichrist as he has powers to call fire down from heaven.

I contacted rabbi's recently to ask them "What do you think the Messiah will be like and will be build the third temple"

As that is one specification of the Jewish Messiah world peace and the fact of world peace

I did not want to get sidetracked to deal with pre tribulation Vs post tribulation. As I wanted to deal with the specifics of the tribulation period. As a Christian can we deal with suffering.