Question Rev 13:8 about the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I have been grappling with this verse for a long time:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Does the part "from the foundation of the world" relate to the Lamb or to those people who are not found in the book of life?

Was the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world or does it relate to those reprobates that are not found in the book of life from the foundation of the world?

The KJV sounds a bit ambiguous. The ESV and ASV clearly releate it to those reprobates.

It is an awkward sentence structure in the version you quoted because it puts the phrase "lamb slain” in the middle.

Either the names were in the book from the foundation of the world, or the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

Neither makes much sense to me but the latter is less objectionable.

It speaks of Christ as being the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.

1 To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia

2 elect according to the foreknowledge (before the foundation of the world) of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: (I Peter 1:1-2)

18 knowing you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,

19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (I Peter 1:18-20)

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory (I Corinthians 2:7)

23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God (before the foundation of the world), you have taken and crucified, and put to death (Acts 2:23)

Yes, the Lamb was there and Abraham spoke prophetically about the Lamb that God would provide after God stayed him not to slay Isaac.
But was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world?

I see 2 problems with this explanation:
No. 1) It would mean that the atonement preceeds the fall of man. Then God must have forseen the rebellion of Satan and sin of Adam even before they were created.

I cannot think that Satan and Adam were predestined to fall right from the beginning because it would somehow imply that God had some authorship in sin.

I believe both Satan and Adam sinned because of their choice and not because of an inescapable predetermination.

1 John 1:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Problem No.2) It puts the crucifixion outside the realm of time.

Matthew 25:34, Ephesians 1:4, Hebrews 4:3

Study these verses and surrounding. The work of salvation was planned from before the foundations of the world. Jesus' sacrifice was not an afterthought, a reaction by God to man's "unexpected" sin. God created us, knowing full well the price that would have to be paid for redemption.

If the sacrifice was planned before creation, sin must have been taken into account, otherwise redemption would not be neccessary.

I believe that God had foreordained to put everything under Christ right from the beginning, before creation.

Satan was a perfect, beautiful angel before his rebellion. He did not carry the seed of destruction right from the beginning.

We are created in Gods image, God is sovereign and man is created sovereign just as God, to make choices.
Adam definitely had the ability to choose before the fall.
Sin must be the creatures wrong choice, not the creators will or plan.

narrowpath: Great comment: Sin did not enter by God's preordained will. But it did not enter without God's foreknowledge. In other words, Adam's sin was not a surprise to God and the provision had already been mapped out.

[narrowpath: Great comment: Sin did not enter by God's preordained will. But it did not enter without God's foreknowledge. In other words, Adam's sin was not a surprise to God and the provision had already been mapped out.]

Well worded!

//Sin did not enter by God's preordained will. But it did not enter without God's foreknowledge. In other words, Adam's sin was not a surprise to God and the provision had already been mapped out.]//

This is a distinction without a difference. Very easy to say and it sounds good but it is nonsensical.

"This is a distinction without a difference. Very easy to say and it sounds good but it is nonsensical."

Good observation Todd.

I'm glad it was you and not me pointing that out.

You always get these kind of questions and responses when you deny the scripture teaching that God has an election. That election is God's choosing not man. It is God's purposing and willing and revealing that purpose and will by Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

When you believe the scriptures teach election, you believe God's plan was involving Christ from ancient past. You also believe God's design and purpose for Christ the Church and our own individual purposes are all connected to God's original plan in Christ.

Stop worrying about a free-will you never had, or a salvation that was the after thought of mans sin. It's really ok to believe God knows more than you, has a real sovereignty and not a contrived one as claimed by so many. Man is about as sovereign as a rock, he may exist and have purpose but he is no sovereign in his world. Only the wicked alienated mind thinks this way. It's a stain from our atheism of the past where we think we are our own little god, doing, thinking and willing as if we know something.

All our Christian lives our struggle is to vacate the god-post we pretended we had in our enemy-years. Come to God as a human where your life is his, your service and love are his and your plans and future are his.

Don't pattern the biblical God after the nonsense you seen in countless movies, they are false, errant and designed to keep you stupid in regards to God's person. The alienated mind only conceives of an all-knowing God in the most heinous and tyrannical way, that conception fights, resists, contrives doctrines and experiences all to negate who God is and replace him with a more human and a more suitably pliable one that fits our fancy.

The fact that God knew from the outset of Creation who he would save and who he would not is too horrible for the carnal mind...and some of you think of God according to a carnal mind where his decisions to express grace and judgment are all his and you dont get to veto any of it. This strikes fear into the atheism that still resides in you own heart.

I had to come to terms with this myself, the answer was not the arminian free-will escape clause, it was believing that scripture truly means what is says...Jesus being slain from the foundation of the world is the same thing as saying he has blessed the Christian with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places...The one does not occur without the other.

"This is a distinction without a difference. Very easy to say and it sounds good but it is nonsensical."

This logic rebuttal is a non-sequitur itself. God has ordained Marvin to live in this present world, because God willed Marvin's existence God also willed that Marvin as Marvin be revealed for who he is, with that comes sinfulness and sin-action. One does not come without the other. The distinction is that I own the sin I committed, God's will that I live in this world and my own disobedience are at odds with his prescriptive will. Therefore there is a distinction and a difference.

A thousand more examples can be laid out, but my own life is sufficient to show that Adam and Eve being ordained of God to live were a 'package deal' Just as I am, God's purpose for me is wrapped up in Christ, but outside of Christ all I could see is the human-willing and 'human-actions' that follow an alienated and enmity filled heart. Before Adam, Jesus the 2nd person of the Trinity willingly planned his own sacrifice by reason of my own sin in order to bring all the blessings of God's righteousness upon me. All of this decided long before the "earth was void and without form". Our earth was not to reveal tree's flowers, seas and mountains, it was to reveal the Person of God in Christ and to unite with him his creation man and woman.

If it is nonsensical what is the proper way to answer and define the meaning? I realize they have been debating this for centuries but I expect the correct answer from you by tonight. Ha! Seriously, it is a intriguing subject.

"...they have been debating this for centuries..."

If you are content believing that God never intended this to be understood, then you may as well drop it!

If it's been God's intention for it merely to be an "intriguing subject", then you may as well drop it!

But...

/If you are content believing that God never intended this to be understood, then you may as well drop it!

If it's been God's intention for it merely to be an "intriguing subject", then you may as well drop it!/

Then lay it out for us just the way God intends for it be understood.

I raised the topic because I honestly need to know. Today I preached about Ephesians 1: 1-14 as part of a series about the church.

I am in ministry and understand that I a responsible to teach nothing but the truth.

I had a discussion with the other elder in our church and I am willing to change my views by good theological arguments based on scripture.

Was the atonement there before there even was a conceivable need for it to be there ?

If the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, then atonement for death and sin, which has not entered creation at the beginning must have already been accounted for.

My objection was that God cannot be the author of sin and death, inasmuch as he did not create darkness.

That would mean that God must have created satan and man with the ability to make a choice for or against him - free will.
Otherwise God would be the author of evil which is not possible.
Satan and Adam were created sinless. Satan sinned wilfuly, Adam by sinned by permitting satans deception that corrupted his will against Gods command.

Knowing that the exercise of free will would end up in sin, God arranged the atonement - the Lamb slain - from the beginning of the world.

That would make more sense to me.

This way God can have praise to his glory not by creating programmed robots but by redeemed humans who exercised their free will to repent and believe and receive the foreordained salvation in Christ.

The opening poster answered his own dilemma in his very next post. But he doesn't like his own conclusions, so he rather calls them problems.

Verses such as this (Rev. 13:8) trouble us, causing us to attempt to protect God's character. God does not need our protection. He speaks plainly in many places as to what he alone does.

4 chapters later in the same book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ, in chapter 17:17 it is written very plainly. He does not hide from us what He Himself does, fearing what the creature may think of Him.

Many christians are afraid of facing up to the questions of men like Richard Dawkins. God doesn't need us to defend His character. We men have the tendency of ascending upon the throne and calling upon God to give an account to us of His actions. When it's us who must give an account to Him Who sits upon the Throne.

God is God. Think about it! All that entails.

NP:

The difficulty is, and always has been, whether perfect foreknowledge is consistent with free will.

Certain folks are consistent by admitting it is not and therefore deny the free will of mankind, although they may try to say they don’t.

Other people who think about such things and who believe man is truly free must struggle with the idea of perfect foreknowledge. Because if God has perfect foreknowledge that I am going to eat a soft shell crab sandwich for lunch tomorrow, guess what I am going to have?

Todd:

God did not determine that you will eat the soft shell crab sandwich tomorrow. You will eat it out your own free choice and free will. But the soft-shell crab that you will eat will be contaminated and you will eat it and die. You do not know that. But God who is all knowing and who knows the end from the beginning knows. The problem is that even if God were to warn you about this you would be too hard-hearted and obstinate to listen to Him and believe Him. So God, the Great Physician and the God of all Goodness and unfathomable Love, prepares the medicine to save you so that you will live and not die. You see, God has no pleasure in your death. He will pluck this silly sheep out of the jaws of death, carry it on His shoulder, and bring it back home to glory.

Eph. 2:1-7 ”“
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:18-20

knowing, as you do, that it was not with a ransom of perishable wealth, such as silver or gold, that you were set free from your frivolous habits of life which had been handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ””as of an unblemished and spotless lamb. He was pre-destined indeed to this work, even before the creation of the world, but has been plainly manifested in these last days for your sake. - WNT

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain course of life received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was fore-ordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifested in these last times for you. - Webster

Before the foundation of the world - That is, from eternity. It was before man was formed; before the earth was made; before any of the material universe was brought into being; before the angels were created. Barnes

before the foundation of the world; for all God's decrees and appointments, relating either to Christ, or his people, are eternal; no new thoughts, counsels, and resolutions, are taken up by him in time. The affair of redemption by Christ is no new thing; the scheme of it was drawn in eternity; the persons to be redeemed were fixed on; the Redeemer was appointed in the council and covenant of peace; and even the very Gospel which proclaims it was ordained before the world, for our glory. A Saviour was provided before sin was committed, and the method of man's recovery was settled before his ruin took place; and which was done without any regard to the works and merits of men, but is wholly owing to the free and sovereign grace of God, and to his everlasting love, both to the Redeemer and the redeemed. Gill

Before the foundation of the world - if we take it here in its common signification, the creation of universal nature, then it shows that God, foreseeing the fall and ruin of man, appointed the remedy that was to cure the disease. Adam Clark

Pulpit Commentary Verse 20. - Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world; rather, as in the Revised Version, who was foreknown indeed; literally, who hath been fore known. But the foreknowledge of God implies the exercise of his will, therefore the "foreordained" of the Authorized Version, though not here an exact translation, is true in doctrine. St. Peter had asserted the same great truth in his sermon on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:23; comp. also Acts 3:18 and Acts 4:28). He had heard the words, "before the foundation of the world," again and again from the lips of Christ; he may possibly have read them in the Epistle to the Ephesians (Ephesians 1:4). The incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ were not the result of a change of purpose to meet unforeseen circumstances; they were foreseen and foreordained in the eternal counsels of God. Those counsels are wholly above the range of our understanding; we cannot see through the veil of mystery which surrounds them; we cannot fathom the awful necessities which they imply. But was manifest in these last times for you; rather, as in the Revised Version, with the best manuscripts, was manifested at the end of the times for your sake.

Vs 20. God's eternal foreordination of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, and completion of it in these last times for us, are an additional obligation on us to our maintaining a holy walk, considering how great things have been thus done for us. Peter's language in the history corresponds with this here: an undesigned coincidence and mark of genuineness. Redemption was no afterthought, or remedy of an unforeseen evil, devised at the time of its arising. God's foreordaining of the Redeemer refutes the slander that, on the Christian theory, there is a period of four thousand years of nothing but an incensed God. God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). - JFB

Thanks for quoting these explanations, Savannah.

Now it is plain to me.

Foreordained redemption before creation is consistant with man's later fall due to a bad choice and God is clear from any authorship of evil and darkness.

So He can have all the praise to His glory due to His name!

Dear Marvin,

I have read and re-read your post multiple times and I ask you to consider the possibility that an element of the leaven of superiority has tainted your choice of words. Please re-consider the examples from your post:

Quote: "and some of you think of God according to a carnal mind where his decisions to express grace and judgment are all his and you dont get to veto any of it."

Does this statement engender wholesome discussion? Do you sincerely believe this is the mind of other believers who have a different understanding of election?

Quote: "Stop worrying about a free-will you never had, or a salvation that was the after thought of mans sin. It's really ok to believe God knows more than you, has a real sovereignty and not a contrived one as claimed by so many. Man is about as sovereign as a rock, he may exist and have purpose but he is no sovereign in his world. Only the wicked alienated mind thinks this way. It's a stain from our atheism of the past where we think we are our own little god, doing, thinking and willing as if we know something."

Please consider how these thoughts can appear to be condescending towards others.

There are many devout and sincere believers who believe that God has given men free will and they deduce this from the study of the scriptures.

I only ask that you consider whether there is a possibility of even the smallest amount of leaven of intellectual superiority in your post. I know that I am not immune to this in my own writing and communication. I also rejoice that God is your judge and not me and that my impression may be wrong.

I enjoy a confidence in the measure of faith and understanding God's mercy has granted me, and I wrestle to discern the difference between grace empowered boldness and natural intellectual confidence. May the Lord continue to perfect us in the full knowledge that only He can grant.

mak

Hi Mak:

Quote: Does this statement engender wholesome discussion? Do you sincerely believe this is the mind of other believers who have a different understanding of election?

I believe it does engender wholesome discussion. My opinions are mine so I tone them a verbiage that denotes the very thing I engage too often with my brothers, that being a complete utter denial of God's election. Man can chose, God cannot, is the bottom line. Around that is built a myriad of little mazes to keep you from the simple truth of God's predestinating power.
Some of my brothers and sisters are very cordial and gracious to discuss the topic and will listen with an open bible. Others have decided on a god that has no rights or power but what is allowable to human sovereignty. I deny this and anathematize it. They too will quote God's own word to deny what God has explicitly said.
When I read their verbiage I recognize a man who has a carnal mind portraying God after his own atheist-stain that still resides in his heart.
The atheist at heart is his own god and as god sovereign and has power of will and declares his own purpose and agendas. This virus is evident in much of our Christianity...and my own to my own shame.

I retract nothing, and rewrite nothing. What I have said is found everywhere in reformed literature the world over. My tone is that same tone found in Arminian theology the world over, such a tone that denotes their attitude towards an Electing God.

Mak: all that being said, I have no immunity to pride, harsh words and leaven of superiority. It may be that I am exactly as you've stated. As I write this, I am reminded how many failings in this area I have already committed. I thank you for your candor and addressing the issue with me. I will go to God about this. I praise the Lord you brought it up to me.

Thank you for your gracious reply,

I certainly affirm that our Father's thoughts are not as our own and that His thoughts and ways are as vastly superior to our limited perspective as the heavens appear higher than the earth. My own limited understanding of man's will and ability to decide and choose come from study of the scriptures. I am certain that we agree that men of old, spoke and wrote as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. This is the common basis for the inspiration of scripture. It is the very specific verbiage found in Holy Scripture that indicates man has a will and exercises that will - whether free or not.

I do not believe man's will is in opposition to God's sovereign election or divine foreknowledge or predestination. Nor do I believe certain passages describing God's sovereignty counter other passages describing man's accountability for his conscious choice and conduct.

God Himself, through Moses, differentiated between sins of ignorance and presumptuous sins. Presumptuous sins were not atoneable, there was no sacrifice for them. They were capital offenses requiring the guilty party to be put to death. This concept is not limited to the Old Covenant, for John also differentiates between "sin unto death" and "sin not unto death."

Therefore, we consistently find individual "accountability" based upon varying degree of intent and knowledge. However we may view corruption and depravity, scripture contains multiple references to judgment based upon degree of accountability for specific choice and action.

One Greek word dynamically underscores this accountability: ἀθετέω - "to remove from its place, to annul". This is the word the Holy Spirit inspired men to use to describe the choice men made in response to God's dealing with them. In Hebrews 10:28 it is translated "reject" - "anyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy...."

Luke and John record our Lord's use of this same word to describe men's response to Himself and His message. "He who rejects (ἀθετέω) you, rejects (ἀθετέω) me and he who rejects (ἀθετέω) me rejects (ἀθετέω) the One who sent Me." The writer specifically chose this word to describe the conscious act for which the person was fully accountable.
The decision to ἀθετέω the Lord or His message brings about a greater judgment than anything that occurred in Sodom or Gomorrah.

Whether this act or decision is "free" is not as relevant as the fact of the responsibility and accountability for the act itself. The scriptures contain these specific references to varying degrees of accountability for our benefit. These distinctions provide valuable instruction and admonition for us. Persistent refusal to receive correction is judged with greater severity than sins committed in ignorance. Persistent resistance and refusal of God's attempt to turn us from our evil ways is described with words that identify hardness, callousness, and defiant rebellion. Such responses to divine mercy cause men to become "liable" for the actions.

When God personally revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 34, He finished the declaration of His Name with this statement - LXX (the Septuagint) - "...the liable ones He will not cleanse, bringing the lawlessness of the fathers upon the children..." He makes this distinction for a very specific reason. Men whose actions make them "liable" are different from men who God will forgive, cleanse, restore and heal." We must not lose these divine distinctions. They are not contrived by men, they originate from the mind of God.

"Unbelief" and "pride" are also actions for which men are held fully accountable. Persistent unbelief and unrepentant pride receive condemnation. Understanding the nature of these actions is far more important than underscoring whether they were made in a state of "free" or "non-free" will. Rocks are not judged for being rocks, but men are judged for their choices and conduct.

I hope we would agree that understanding the basis for God judging every man and holding us accountable for our actions is more profitable for teaching and admonition than understanding that God has already decided before the world began who He would choose, especially if such an emphasis obscures the importance of calling all men to repentance.

By studying the record of scripture, we can see what truths are rarely or seldom brought out and what truths permeate the bible from beginning to end. God is sovereign and no one can challenge His authority to choose. In His wisdom, He has chosen to leave to us a written account filled with truth to learn and meditate upon. That record is filled with truth from beginning to end that speaks to our choices and conduct.

Let it stand that God has chosen whoever He will and He is righteous and perfect in doing so. I for one, believe that He thought it wise to describe those He elects. I agree with Peter that the best way to make our "calling and election sure is to do these things" that God has described. For if we do them we will never fall and we will insure a rich welcome on that day.

mak

Hi Mak: As is customary for you, what a beautifully written response.

I will respond with more explanation a little later, for now, personal responsibility and liability for sin has never been a contention between camps, what has been the rub has been the assumption that because man can will his way into hell, he can will his way into heaven. His will turning to sin or his will turning to righteousness.

Because a man cannot will his way into heaven.
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

So, we see a distinction, man by his nature will's after the flesh and reaps the rewards his sins, but the gift of God is not by deserving, therefore cannot be by the will of men, therefore cannot be obtained by any other means than God's own election. Many are called, few are chosen, This is the gospel we preach, though all are liable and culpable for their sins, the chosen by God will receive grace.
This of course is the heart of arminianism, where grace is always in reach of mans will. But as I said, and so says scripture God makes his choice, and God extends his grace and we do not have the veto power to annul or obtain his choosing. Man cannot veto himself out of hell by reason of his will, no matter how he may surround himself with biblical phrases that pertain to human responsibility=human ability=human-heaven-getting-power.

This also strikes at the root of so many who have been parroting their leaders "God isn't making robots". No, he is not, he is making sons...and those sons are born inspite of their rebellious rejection nature. God undertaking to bring about a heart transformation, birth, seed planting and opening of their eyes.

So Mak, I stand with God as the author of our faith, not our will to believe, repent, accept, claim, trust, love et al.

I believe this, because our salvation was authored long before the creation of the world, by Jesus who long before his crucifixion determined to be God's sacrificial lamb. His love for us predates Gen 1:1, his plans and callings, sons and salvations are all orchestrated to bring him the glory he deserves from such an act of grace toward us.

You are right, it is important to walk in the light as Jesus is in the Light, to be willing to recognize sin and error in ourselves and repent when it is evident we have sinned. Yet, God's electing love is the basis for believing him for sanctifying grace and the continued work of the Spirit. I need not dismiss what God did in order to reveal my election, what I need to do is know that having such an election I should prove it and honor God by making my calling and election sure.

That confidence in the reality of my and your own personal election originates in God's electing grace, not by reason of "I just now realized" I have grace so I will to find confidence and security that I might not fall. The grace of God didn't originate with me, nor does that grace depend upon me, what I depend upon is an already provided grace and an already provided sonship...never a potential one.

Thanks again for the correction.

Thank you Marvin,

Please allow me to clarify that neither of us, nor I doubt very many at all, believe that men can "will their way into heaven."

I believe that Jesus Christ is God's grace towards all men and that His appearing, His life, His words, His miracles, His death and resurrection, His ascension and His Holy Spirit are all aspects of saving grace that are offered to all men and that this grace in Christ is what enables all men to believe.

Without God's grace in Christ there is nothing man can do to receive eternal life, but I believe along with all the apostles that this grace has appeared to all men and was given for all men.

We, gain access into this grace by faith, the faith that comes from hearing the message. We give glory to God that the good news quickens faith within the heart of man. YES! Only Jesus Christ can give authority to become a son of God, and He gives this authority to ALL who receive Him, even to those who believe in His name.

His death by the grace of God was for all men. His atonement by the grace of God was for the whole world. The light He brought into the world lights every man.

Apart from Him there is no promise to believe, no ability to receive, no hope of experiencing salvation unto eternal life. I believe we agree with these truths. No one is saved by their own works or will.

Where we may see differently is how this grace is imparted to those who receive it. I fully affirm that it is only by the grace of God in Christ Jesus that we are saved. This grace proceeds faith and enables faith. The scriptures affirm that this grace is for every man - "for by the grace of God, He tasted death for every man." Scripture also affirms that - "He is the atonement, not only for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world." The grammar in the original language is so specific it has only one meaning - the entire world. John's use of cosmos throughout his epistle determines how the expression is to be understood.

God knowing who or choosing who He will choose is His divine sovereign prerogative. So is His choice to offer His grace to every man and to atone for the sins of the whole world. This is what all the apostles and church fathers affirm.

God's election and whosever believeth in Him are both expressions worthy of embracing and rejoicing in. I agree with the Apostle Paul who knowing God's sovereign election declared without reservation that "God wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

God's will for "ALL" to be saved is the very reason why "all" can be born again - not because of or by their own will, but because He does "will" that all be saved. Salvation is by His will alone, but His will is for ALL to be saved.

It is technical, but worth study to understand why Paul chose to express "to be saved" with the Greek infinitive. In short, this allows Him to have the purpose and intent without determining the outcome. These are not my own thoughts, but those of Greek scholars who have devoted themselves to determine the meaning of the text.

Thank you again for the opportunity to discuss this topic. Although we may differ still in some areas, we both agree that it is by God's will, not ours, that we are saved.

mak

BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD;BEFORE TIME BEGAN -

EPHESIANS 1:4

For he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in love before him.

He chose us beforehand in him from before the foundation of the universe, that we shall be holy and without spot before him, and he ordained us beforehand in love for himself.

Before the creation of the world, he chose us in Christ to be holy and perfect in his presence.

He chose us as His own in Christ before the creation of the world, that we might be holy and without blemish in His presence.

Even before the world was made, God had already chosen us to be his through our union with Christ, so that we would be holy and without fault before him.

2 TIMOTHY 1:9

He is the One who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not based on our works but of his own purpose and grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

The One having saved us and having called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, having been given us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.

He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not because of our own works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time eternal.

He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.

//This also strikes at the root of so many who have been parroting their leaders "God isn't making robots". No, he is not, he is making sons...and those sons are born inspite of their rebellious rejection nature.//

The only problem here is that per your view God willed them to have a rebellious nature.

The John 1:12 verse quoted contains the word "believe.” If believing is not an act of will, what is it?

The Bible continually speaks of human responsibility for choices made, which can only truly exist if the choices were made freely without some irresistible divine manipulation. The Bible never suggests that all of people's choices are controlled or ordained by God. Nor does it indicate that all of men's choices are totally free. God did harden hearts, from time to time, but God never hardened the heart of a man who had not previously, by his own series of unfettered choices, already set the trajectory of his own life toward a collision course with God's judgment.

Taking Joseph as an example, his brothers, to be sure, inadvertently played into God's plans””but there is no indication that God was feeding choices into their will at the time. They despised Joseph. All God had to do was to place Joseph at their mercy, and their own hatred would take its course. God did not sovereignly ordain that they would hate Joseph. If for any reason, Joseph's brothers had experienced a brief crisis of conscience before selling Joseph into slavery, and failed to do so, there were certainly lots of other ways God could have arranged for some other circumstance (being kidnapped by Midianite traders comes to mind as one alternative) to get Joseph into Potiphar's house.

The same is true of Judas, Caiaphas, et al. involved in Christ's arrest and crucifixion. They fulfilled God's purposes without realizing it. However, there is nothing in scripture suggesting that God turned them against Christ. They were planning to kill Him since the beginning of His public ministry. Until that final Passover, they were divinely prevented from doing so, because "His hour was not yet." When the proper time came, God removed His protection and "delivered" Jesus to them (Acts 2:23). God did not need to interfere with their freedom of choice, the trajectory of the choices they had already made and were making over a three year period rendered it predictable that, given the freedom to act upon their own schemes, Jesus would be crucified””thus fulfilling God's purpose.

Even if God, in these cases, and possibly a few more, had sovereignly made these people sin in the ways they did (an entirely unnecessary theory), we have to admit that these were special, world-changing cases, in which God might make an exception to his general hands-off policy. It would not suggest that He also determines everyone's choices (for example, their choice to believe or not believe the gospel). The Bible nowhere suggests that God interferes with, or has preordained, all human choices.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Marvin, I see an erroneous interpretation of this text. The text is simply making a distinction between two groups of people . Group (1) are those who think that because they are the physical seed or blood line of a particular man ( namely Abraham), that makes them automatically children of God. John calls that group here those who are born of blood or of the will of the flesh or the will of man.
And group (2 )are those who have received Him ( Christ ) or believed in His name, these who are given the power to become the sons of God.

You, on the other hand say that the two groups are (1) those who believe in man’s ability to have faith, or those who believe in human decision to follow God are those who are described in the text as children of the blood , or the will of the flesh or the will of man, while group (2) are those who are the true sons of God the elect, chosen before the foundation of the world.

So, while the Bible says that those who believe in and receive Christ are the same as born of God .
You and you camp on the other hand give a completely different context to this text and consequently change the interpretation and the conclusion drawn, and thus while you pretend to defend God’s sovereignty, you become your own sovereign. You do that with the whole Bible. I urge you to please ask the Holy Spirit to enlighten your understanding. The best way to understand the word is to interpret it in its original context, then withdraw a conclusion or a principle, them apply that principle to any context. So, while we can not change the context of the original text while we are trying to understand what the text is saying, we can certainly apply the principle drawn to any new context.

Hi Todd: Sorry for the long pauses between responses.

A couple of things.

Because I cannot spell out precisely the workings of divine concurrence in individuals, that fact really has no bearing on whether there is an election of God.

Election stands because of God's decree, not because I can articulate all the inner workings of God in mens hearts. No one can.

So, in short, divine concurrence is another issue.

Next, God is not the author of sin, nor does he tempt man to sin. However, God does judge men, turns the hearts of men, and gives men over to their lusts.

God's passivity in one situation does not dictate he must be passive as a general rule, nor the opposite where he is actively bringing about his own plan, man by his own choices fulfilling everything God had purposed to do.

Lastly man in believing and acting in obedience must and does with his own will.
(thanks for asking that question so I can clarify) But man's will is not the source of his desire, it comes from God's Spirit who authors our faith and plants the seed of God's word in the heart. Man is a responder, not an originator of his faith or repentance.

Hi Fifi: you see a different interpretation, whether it is erroneous or not must be proven.

I agree your interpretation includes those who by reason of blood and relation cannot by reason of that claim to be sons of God. But the will of men goes beyond that, it steps into the arena of men who will their sons to be priest, to be preachers, to be Christian, to ascribe to a tradition or creed and thereby include themselves as sons of God. This 'willing' either for others or themselves is a non-sequitur as John states.

I merely look past the incidence to the root and make my conclusions, I do no damage to the context in anyway.

Thanks for the advice.

Hi Marvin: You said, Quote"I agree your interpretation includes those who by reason of blood and relation cannot by reason of that claim to be sons of God." Quote

This is not my interpretation but the only clear, and correct interpretation of the text.

John 3:11-13 " 11 He came unto his own ( the physical seed of Abraham), and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Quote" This 'willing' either for others or themselves is a non-sequitur as John states.Quote

Where does John state that willing for themselves is non- sequitur?
was he not the same John who quoted Jesus saying " And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

Quote" I merely look past the incidence to the root and make my conclusions."Quote

And who gave you the right to "look past" what is written?
Are you your own sovereign? and if you are, why do you come here pretending to defend the sovereignty of God?

I believe both the history of God's visitations in revivals and awakenings and the Bible when it is rightly understood give a clear, balanced picture of God's and man's role in salvation.

Man can not believe without divine revelation. That is why Jesus said to wait in Jerusalem until the Spirit comes, yet having this divine revelation, man can still do his part of either resisting or embracing it.

Please watch this short video especially near the end with the conversion of Kenny MacDonald. It happened in Calvinistic context yet many of the elders on this island arrtibuted the work of the Spirit of God to the devil and called Duncan Campbell an Arminian heretic because he believed in human choice.

https://youtu.be/mGkpNKrxmFs

1 Peter 1:2 (KJV) Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

This says it all. Not any other gospel or you are cursed.

Do you believe the Gospel? 1 Corinthians 15:1-5 (KJV) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you (((the gospel))) which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

In Christ: Phillip; I have received and I believe.

Dear brothers and sisters,

Let's remember our Lord's prayer for us that we all may be one even as He and the Father are one.

This statement highlights a danger in discussions like this:
"You and your camp on the other hand give a completely different context to this text and consequently change the interpretation and the conclusion drawn"

While we can recognize that some agree with each other and support a similar position and that we may or may not agree with the understanding being expressed; nevertheless, let us strive to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

In Philippians 3, Paul said - "let as many as are perfect be thus minded, and if on some point you THINK DIFFERENTLY, that too God will make manifest, ONLY LET US LIVE UP to that which we have attained." If we are fellow members of the body of Christ, we are ONE BODY. We may differ in ways, but we are not in opposition to one another.

I recognize that for discussion sake, generalizations make it convenient to place others in a general group or category, but I would ask if considering oneself either a "calvanist" or "Armenian" is really profitable?

I choose to regard every brother or sister who posts on SI as an fellow believer and resist defaulting to carnal categorizations that make divisions based upon differences that should not separate or disparage us from brotherly love.

I recognize that there are serious implications from some of the ideas that we read from others or may write ourselves. Differences are real, and some are more problematic than others, but my prayer and I believe the heart of our Lord is that we seek to be one body, and of the same mind towards each other.

I pray to this end for all who participate in this forum. I am willing to contend for a truth as I know many of you are, but I am very sober and cautious about categorizing anyone who posts here as "them" or "they" or that "camp".

Satan is the great "categoros" (accuser) of the brethren. The original word means - "to come against in the open market". I am NOT against anyone here and urge all of us to guard against all such categorizations.

I hope we can be find the grace given humility to be confident in our own present understanding, and still recognize that we only know in part. Let us leave room that both ourselves and our fellow posters may receive greater revelation and understanding. I believe this is what Paul was speaking about in Philippians 3.

mak

Phillip if you expect me to believe a gospel that holds that God created the vast majority of mankind in order to predestine them to hell, you’re crazy.

If that is what you think God did, why do we call Satan the bad guy?

"...if you expect me to believe a gospel that holds that God created the vast majority of mankind in order to predestine them to hell, you’re crazy."

There are many who believe that God knew that the vast majority of mankind would end up in hell. He knew that He couldn't save them no matter how hard He tried. But God created them anyway, knowing full well that they'd be cast into hell.

Are you one who believes this?

Or, do you believe that God didn't know the future outcome?

Thank you brother Alan, for that exhortation. I really appreciate your heart that reflects the heart of Jesus to see His bride perfected to the unity of the godhead. I was just watching the documentary " The Moravian Mission Machine" how all these believers from different persuasions came together and realized that unless they become one, the world can never be reached for Christ. It would've been much easier for them to sit around discussing the things on God's side of the equation such as election, predestination, but they realized that they need to be occupied with their side of the equation and leave to God to take care of His part.

The day is coming when all mysteries will be made plain, but for now, we need to obey the clear commands of Christ.

A guy named Joe asked the following question;

I would be interested in hearing your answer to a question of mine. Say for argument sake that i will live my life out and die as an atheist. i would be judged a sinner and sent to hell for eternity. Now, God is all knowing. He knew before i even existed that i would choose to be an atheist. He knew he would end up sending me to hell. Even if i had the opportunity to accept jesus, he KNEW i wouldn’t, because he is ALL KNOWING. So then why would he allow me to come into creation knowing that i would not be saved, and sent to hell? I hope to hear a response from you soon, and maybe we can talk some more.- Joe

_____________________________________

Please don't be too quick to answer Joe!

But...nevertheless,..I do ask you to answer Joe.

Remember...don't be a Peter and open your mouth too quick!

Well I can tell you that the pat answer to Joe’s question fails miserably because it ignores the dilemma of who [allegedly] created the "system” in the first place.

Savannah,

Not so sure your statement is a reasonable one. God wants true love and true love can only exist where there is free(d) choice. On the other hand TMK has a good point in saying it would be crazy to believe God meticulously and exhaustively determined who would be saved and who would be damned. This would cause a problem of culpability with sin, because that would mean God would have determined the very sin that damned soul committed and then damned them for it.

Russ

"This would cause a problem of culpability with sin, because that would mean God would have determined the very sin that damned soul committed and then damned them for it."

God does not need to hide from us what He Himself determines, even going so far as to reveal to us how He accomplishes His purposes. In a previous post on this thread I made mention of Revelation 17:17. There, as well as in the following verses, God reveals what and how, He Himself shall bring to pass His will.

Micaiah said, "Hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, with all the heavenly assembly standing on his right and on his left. The Lord said, ‘Who will deceive Ahab, so he will attack Ramoth Gilead and die there?’ One said this and another that. Then a spirit stepped forward and stood before the Lord. He said, ‘I will deceive him.’ The Lord asked him, ‘How?’ He replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ The Lord said, ‘Deceive and overpower him. Go out and do as you have proposed.’ So now, look, the Lord has placed a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours; because the Lord has decreed disaster for you.”
1 Kings 22:19-23

No need to attempt to defend God in these matters. He needeth not any defense of Himself or His actions from His creatures.

God is God...period!

Joe's question is answered succinctly by the texts in Romans 9:14-26. You couldn't get a more direct question answered in a more explicit way. For certain a carnal mind hates the idea that so many sinners ( including themselves) are relegated to mere examples of God's long-suffering on sinners. In short, they represent his kindness to let that kind of man live on the earth. Now, we Christians who were of that atheist camp ( of which I was one) have no reason to boast, because it was God's kindness toward me, not because I willed or worked, but because God decided to show mercy to me who had no more deserving than other hell-bound atheists, religionist, moralists et all.

For many sinners who will end up in hell, their purpose was to have children whereby God had determined to show mercy upon them for his name's sake.

The scripture is not silent on the importance of a man's will. The scripture teaches us it has no part to play in the determination of God's willing to show mercy to them.

How powerless we are, how at the mercy of God we are, how pitiful and foolish to think we are some big players in this world, that what we do and who we are has put God into some obligation or debt.

You can call it a camp or reformed or Calvinism or Augustinianism or you can call it for what it is, scripture teaching. Because I believe it, you can call it Marvinism and thereby dismiss it because 'man teaches it'.

But all of those dismissals and all of those 'free-will' scripture nullifiers never solve this problem and God never seems to change his mind about being the God who as Romans 9 says it... 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

You cannot veto the election of God according to his own purposes out of a dislike for the idea that some folks will be in hell that you think God is unfair and unjust to put there. Truth is, none of us ( especially me) deserve any kindness or grace that has been given to us. By the revelation of God's word to me, I received a love of the truth, not because I was worthy or deserved it, but because God desired to have mercy on me according to his own will.

If you cannot say that and know that others are not chosen, I wonder if you really understand what kind of salvation has been given to you?

"We have found that discussions pertaining to politics, conspiracy theories, calvinism/arminianism and others just produce strife and not the fruits of the Spirit so we ask saints not to start these discussion threads on SermonIndex."

So true, this is why I held my peace.

These threads usually get the uglier the longer they last.

Calvinists and Arminianists have to stick it out together in eternity where there are no traces of a partition wall.
These labels will not be recognized any longer.

One came to faith because he discovered his predestination in Christ and the other just came and willingly surrendered to the master. They came through the same door - Christ!

By that time we will finally be able to show irresistable grace to each other and enjoy eternal security.

I would certainly ask Joe for his last name so I can look him up in the bible among the list of the damned. And if he doesn’t think there would be such a list. I would ask him his opinion of why He thinks God did not give us such a list. And if He says that maybe God did not leave us such a list that those who are on the saved list would not be too confident that they would slack in their Christian walk and these on the damned list would not be too discouraged to change their course and repent. I would then venture to tell him that this is the heart of God. He keeps certain knowledge to himself alone because he knows that in our corrupt state, certain knowledge would ruin us.

I would then give him this quote by C.S Lewis " God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong. I can not. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata-of creatures that worked like machines-would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they must be free.”

I would then give a simple example of how God’s foreknowledge of things does not necessarily mean that He authored them. If I watch a movie more than ones, I have foreknowledge of the events taking place. I may know that the main character is going to commit suicide in the end and obviously there would be a train of events that would lead to that tragic end. I may wish for it to end on a happy note but really I have no way of influencing the events. I know that this illustration falls short of representing Joe’s dilemma, simply because while I am helpless to intervene, God isn’t. But what if God, who is all powerful, all knowledgeable, all present chooses in His sovereignty for the reasons C.S. Lewis give to restrain His own hand.

People often would blame God for not stopping someone like Hitler from committing the atrocities he did but and reason that if God is all loving and all powerful, He would have stopped it. They refuse to attribute that to the longsuffering of God. But what about the times when He was long suffering enough to give them the breath, energy to blaspheme His name. He could’ve let them drop dead, or make hem mute, but He did not.

Normally unsaved people have no problem with the justice of God, If they do they wouldn’t believe in things like KARMA that allows for the punishment of evil and reward of the good if they were given the ability and choice to do good and evil.
What they do have a problem with, however, is stripping them of this ability and then judging them for not doing the good that they could never do, just as asking a week old baby to get in the car and go grocery shopping, and punish him if he can‘t.
But that is the monster of a god often presented to the lost.

To Savannah,

You said God does not need defending from His creatures.
Well, the monstrous God you represent certainly needs defending.

Again you use the same tactic of making the Bible subservient to you by stating your views or what you wish to believe and then using Bible texts taken out of context to prove your point. The bible text used in 1 kings 22:19-23 was spoken of a man who was given great light, saw the acts and miracles of Elijah bringing fire from heaven and proving the that Holy one of Israel is the only one and true God , and yet it was said of Ahab " there was never anyone like Ahab who sold himself to do evil in the sight of the Lord” and yet we see in the following verse after Ahab humbled himself, tore his clothes and wore sackcloth how the Lord’s heart was softened towards him.
You use verses that shows Gods dealing with the most wicked individual that ever lived who violated God’s light over and over, and who was shown mercy over and over, when God, having exhausted all ways possible to reach him, decides to take the crafty by their own craftiness and claim that that is God and that is how he deals with all sinners.

There is a principle we must consider and that is More Light equals More Responsibility. Jesus says, because you say you see, your sin will remain for if you were blind you would have no sin.

Times when God pours His Holy Spirit are not only times of great refreshing but also of great judgment for those who reject the claims of Christ on their lives, because they do so against the light . Often these individuals end up dying shortly after.

Lucifer is not given another chance for repentance because he was the cherub that covered. He had great if not perfect knowledge of God’s love, holiness, transcendency, and all of His attributes and he dared to covet that place which God alone is worthy to occupy.

For you to generalize means that God uses in sever circumstances and claim that that is the God of the Bible is to misrepresent Him.

Marvin, I will get back to you later.

OUCH...! I'm not going to be able to sit down for at least a week!

THY WILL BE DONE by Andrew Murray
Chapter 23 - The Salvation of All the Will of God

"I exhort therefore that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made for all men. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who willeth that all men should be saved." 1 Tim. 2:1-4.

"The Lord is long suffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Pet. 3: 9.

AFTER Paul had urged that supplications, prayers, and intercessions should be made for all men, he reminds us that we may do so in confident assurance that it is good and acceptable to God, because He wills that all men should be saved. The knowledge and faith of God's will for all is to be the motive and the measure of our prayer for all. What God in heaven wills and works for His children on earth we are to will and work for too. As we enter into His will for all, we shall know what we are to do to fulfil that will. And as we pray and labour for all, the faith in His will for all will inspire us with confidence and love.

Perhaps the question arises””If God wills the salvation of all, how is it that it is not effected? What of the doctrine of election, as Scripture teaches it us? And what of the Omnipotence of God, which is surely equal to the Love that wills the salvation of all? As to election, let us remember that there are mysteries in God and in Scripture which are beyond our reach. If there are apparently conflicting truths which we cannot reconcile, we know that Scripture was not written, like a book of science, to satisfy the intellect, but as the revelation of the hidden wisdom of God, to test and strengthen faith and submission, to waken love and childlike teachableness. If we cannot understand why His power does not work what His will has purposed, we shall find that, as the endowment of the creature with a free will is an act by which the will of God has limited itself, all that God does or does not do is decided by conditions far beyond our ken, and which it needs a Divine wisdom to grasp and to order. We shall learn that God's will is as much beyond our comprehension as God's being, and that it is our wisdom and safety and happiness to accept every revealed truth with the simplicity and the faith of little children, and yield ourselves to it to prove its living power within our hearts. Let us not fear to yield ourselves to the uttermost to this blessed word: God willeth that all men should be saved.

God is love. His will is love. As He makes His sun to shine on the good and the evil, so His love rests upon all. However little we can understand why His love is so long-suffering and patient, and does not take its power and reign, we believe and know the love that God hath to us””a love whose measure in heaven is the gift of His Son, and on earth every child of man. His love is nothing, but His will in its Divine energy doing its very utmost, in accordance with the Divine law by which His relation to His creature is regulated, to make men partakers of its blessedness. His will is nothing but His love in its infinite patience and tenderness delighting to win and bless every heart into which it can gain access. If we only knew God and His love, how we should look upon every man we see as one upon whom that love rests and for whom it longs. We should begin to wonder at the mystery of grace that has taken up the Church, as the body of Christ, as a partner in the great work of making that love known, and rendered itself dependent upon its faithfulness. And we should see that all living to do God's will must lead up to this as its central glory: our doing the will that wills that all should be saved.

God willeth that all men should be saved. This truth is a supernatural mystery, not to be apprehended but by a spiritual mind through the teaching of the Holy Spirit. It is in itself so Divine and beyond our apprehension, the difficulties that surround it are so many and so real, it needs so much of time and of the sacrifice of the humble loving heart to master its teaching, that to very many the words carry but little meaning. To the believer, who in very deed seeks to know and do all God's will, they give a new meaning to life. He begins to see that this call to love and to save his fellow-men is not something accidental or additional that, along with other things, goes up to make his life, and to which he can devote as much of time and thought as he sees fit. He learns that just as this loving, saving will of God is the secret source of all His will, and rules it all, so this loving, saving will is to be the chief thing he lives for too. I have been redeemed and organically united to and made a member of the saving Christ, who came to do this will of the Father. I have been chosen and set apart and fitted for this as the one object of my being in the world. I begin to see faintly that the prayer, Thy will be done! means above everything that I give myself for this loving, saving will of God to possess, to inspire, to use, if need be to consume me. And I feel the need of spelling out the words of the sentence till my heart can call them its own: God ””my God, who liveth in me””willeth, with His whole heart, in that will which He has revealed to His people that they may carry it into effect ””that all men, here around me, and to the ends of the earth””should be saved, should have everlasting life.

Paul wrote these words in connection with a call to prayer for all men. Our faith in the truth of God's loving, saving will must be put into practice. It must stir us to prayer. And prayer will most certainly stir us to work. We must not only seek to believe and feel the truth of these words, but must act. This will of God must be done. Let us look upon those around us as the objects of God's love, whom His saving will is seeking to reach. Let us, as we yield ourselves to this will, go and speak to those around us of God's love in Christ. It is possible that we are not succeeding in doing God's will in our personal life because we neglect the chief thing. As we pray to be possessed and filled with the knowledge of this will of God, let us, in our Sunday-school class, or Gospel work, in our efforts for young or old, for poor or rich, seek to have hearts filled with this love, tongues that speak of Jesus and His salvation, and a will that finds its strength in God's own will””that all men should be saved. So will our life, and our love, and our work, and our will in some measure be like that of Jesus Christ””a doing of the Father's will, that none of these little ones should perish.

Thank you Jade for this post, Andrew Murray was indeed a man filled with the Spirit who carried the compassion of God toward the lost in his heart.

Marvin,
it seems to me that you see man's ability to have faith as a reason to boast, willing and working our way to God, makes us big players in this world, putting God into some obligation or debt , or makes us worthy or deserving. Am I reading you correctly?

short answer if you can, please

I see faith as a condition set by God that man has to meet in order to be saved.
In the same way you tell a beggar that you are willing to give him this great mansion to live in only if he would reach with his hand and take the key.
His willingness to reach with his hand does not make him worthy or deserving, a big shot, put you at an obligation to give him the mansion, but it is the condition he has to meet non the less.

Do you see that as fitting example or not?

(No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.) John 6:44. Does this verse address human inability? In the first glance it appears so, In order to understand the meaning of this verse we have to take it within the context of the teachings of Jesus in John.. Who are the audience Jesus is addressing? What are their objections? Do they believe in human ability to come to God in ones own power and therefore Jesus is correcting them. Is he playing the Calvinist correcting His Arminian audience. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. If anyone could fit in the Calvinist shoe, it would be his audience, the religious leaders who believed they are God’s chosen people. If we look at the whole context we find Jesus confronting the religious leaders who insist on asserting two facts. 1: That they know the Father, and 2: That Jesus can not be from the Father. To Jesus, this is a logical and spiritual impossibility because, in Jesus mind, and in consistency with the rest of his teaching that spiritual knowledge comes by revelation , not by education, so much so that babes and suckling infants, and not, the wise and the prudent are those who are qualified to enter the kingdom. if someone truly knows the Father, the Father in turn will open his or her eyes and show him the Son. If someone rejects the Son it is because they do not know the Father. So, here we find the statement take on a slight twist. He is not so much emphasizing the truth that no one can come to the Son except he be drawn by the Father( although that is true too but in a completely different sense that what‘s being taught today), but rather, in Jesus Words, the reason you are not coming to Me is because you are not being drawn by my Father, and the reason you are not being drawn by my Father is because you do not know Him and He does not know you. If you knew Him as you claim, He will automatically reveal my deity to you and you will not stumble over Me. The father does not know you even though you think you are God ‘s elect. But you do not know me nor Him since the only ones the Father will draw are the humble, and lowly, You can not believe because you care more about the glory you receive from one another than God’s glory. Wow, truly that is so simple that the wise and the prudent who are so caught up in theological and philosophical debates will completely miss it. As we can see, this verse does not fall in the Arminian, nor the Calvinist camp, but rather addresses something much simpler, yet, to Jesus, it was much more relevant and profound.

Savannah, I know you are saying that in a joking manner, but I ask your forgiveness for using harsh language and assuming to know your motives, thus playing God . Please forgive me. I can never hope for the unity of the body that brings revival if I am part of the strife.
I love you in the Lord

Marvin, I ask for your forgiveness for the harsh language I used. And for putting you in a camp or a category. I rejoice with all my heart that you care for the glory of God even if I think you are wrong in your theological views.
I love you in the Lord

Thanks fifi. And yes, I certainly do forgive you. It's quite an example of humility to ask for our forgiveness. I must learn to do the same with a sincere heart. Thanks again.

I do have 3 questions I'd like to ask you. And I am only requesting, not making any kind of obligation on your part to answer.

1) Is fifi a man or a woman?
2) Are you younger or older? Younger being under 40.
3) Married, Divorced, Remarried, or Single

If you or any here would ask me those same questions, my answers would be;

1) man
2) older
3) married

Fifi is an older married woman.
If you are asking this for qualification to speak or exhort, I have none.
All I know is the rage I feel when God's word is taken lightly or misunderstood.
For this cause I try to lead a secluded life. I can't remember why I came to this forum again lately.

I know this much, regarding qualification is it is not so much a sin for the hearer but for the speaker.

I know God's Word enough to know it is a sin, but haven't figured out how to quench that rage. I don't not feel conviction of the Spirit or conscience in that area while I feel it when I commit the minutest of sins, but again I could be deceived.

I hope I answered all your questions, Savannah

Hi Fifi,

"Andrew Murray was indeed a man filled with the Spirit who carried the compassion of God toward the lost in his heart.”

Amen.
May we all be filled with the Spirit and carry the compassion of God toward the lost in our hearts.

Ps. 145:8-9 ”“
The LORD is gracious and merciful;
Slow to anger and great in lovingkindness.
The LORD is good to all,
And His mercies are over all His works.

Isa. 26:9 ”“
……For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

Phil. 2:10-11 ”“
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Ps. 145:21 ”“
My mouth will speak the praise of the LORD,
And all flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever.

Rom. 11:33-36 ”“
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Blessings.

Hi Fifi: There is no forgiveness needed from me, I never thought you committed sin against me.
I do not consider strong opinions sin, I don't consider opinionated or strong language as sin and I don't consider it sin to let someone know you disagree with them and they are all wet.

I'm not sold on some idea that we disagree as strongly as we let out, to understand someone with varying theological interpretations, their ideas and your own ideas have to be brought to light.

If you love me after knowing what I really think and what my real opinion of the matter is, I'd say that's a qualitatively better love than a sentimental fuzzy love that will not dive to deep lest it's sentimentality become disrupted.

You are welcome to put me in to some category or camp or group or sect or alliance...whatever you like. For me categorizing or (titling) only helps cut down on typing, it's not the categorizing of God.

I get it that some folks get offended. I am not that person.

Please feel free and I invite you to tell me what you think, how you arrive at it and why I am all wet. That's what I believe discussion boards are for. Others use them for their own reasons. I do so in order to engage others, learn and teach all at the same time. It edifies me to share what I know and why I believe it. It edifies me to be challenged and questioned. God's word is his word, therefore we do well to learn how it addresses all of us with it's varied topics.

Fire away and be at peace, we are not enemies but brothers and sisters loving and serving the same Blessed God and Savior.

Oh ya, edit to add: I am an older married male magoo.

Hi Marvin,
So, you're a magoo. No wonder then you ended up where you're at😂. But not to worry, hold on, friend. Rescue is on the way😉

But seriously though, I appreciate your openness, and venturous spirit.

Blessings

I have sympathy for Mr Magoo, when I was young I thought he was a total retard, but now that I am so similar I have empathy...but I don't have the same car.

Magoo was reformed too...just so you know.

You know how I know this? Because anyone that navigates that bad and sees so poorly avoiding wreck after wreck must have a sovereign and good God delivering him from his much deserved license suspension.

Not sure how this relates to Rev 13, but, there's got to be some analogy connecting it somewhere.

Fifi said,

"...the monstrous God you represent certainly needs defending."

The God I represent and worship;

1 Samuel 15:3

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

NUMBERS 31:17

And now, kill every male among the infants, yea, and every woman who has had sexual relations with a man.

Deuteronomy 2:34

At that time we captured all his cities and completely destroyedc the people of every city, including women and children. We left no survivors.

Ezekiel 9:4-6

"Go throughout the city of Jerusalem,” said the LORD, "and put a mark on the foreheads of the men sighing and groaning over all the abominations committed there.” And as I listened, He said to the others, "Follow him through the city and start killing; do not show pity or spare anyone! Slaughter the old men, the young men and maidens, the women and children, but do not go near anyone who has the mark. Now begin at My sanctuary.”

Exodus 12:29

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon.

Jeremiah 51:22

With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens.

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22)

I will make heaven tremble, and the earth will be shaken from its place when the LORD of Armies is angry. At that time he will be very angry. Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:13,15-18)

When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it ”“ men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys ”“ everything. (Joshua 6:20-21)

Fifi said,

"There is a principle we must consider and that is More Light equals More Responsibility."

The infants and children in the above verses didn't have that opportunity!

Fifi said,

"For you to generalize means that God uses in sever circumstances and claim that that is the God of the Bible is to misrepresent Him."

No generalization! The Bible represents God in this way. And that does not make Him more or less. It makes Him GOD...period. Not the god of many people's imagination.

Fifi said,

"You use verses that shows Gods dealing with the most wicked individual that ever lived who violated God’s light over and over, and who was shown mercy over and over, when God, having exhausted all ways possible to reach him, decides to take the crafty by their own craftiness and claim that that is God and that is how he deals with all sinners."

No, I do not. Infants and children, those associated with the wicked, are those God destroys as well. NO APOLOGIES!

GOD IS GOD!!! I need not defend Him, against those such as Richard Dawkins, who want to be God's judge, rather than God being his Judge.

GOD IS A GOD TO BE FEARED, LOVED, ADORED, WORSHIPED, OBEYED, AND BOWED BEFORE. WORSHIP GOD!

I've only touched the surface!

I made no mention of Noah and the billions drowned.
Sodom and Gomorrah.
David's infant son.
Job's children.

God need not give an account to any of us, for any of His ways!

May the One True God, bless all His people!

Today, bad press is everything. Add a scandal, create a faux pas, say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing and the PC police find themselves another victim to burn at the stake.

We learn early on in our generation that being a Christian means being nice, being amiable, loving and giving and serving and speaking kindly no matter what. I think that is the norm of Christianity and our speech should be gentle and kind. However, when truth is made plain, this quality of speaking is used against us.

It's not nice to tell anyone God will tread their blood in wrath, it's not nice to warn people of a hell that has opened it's mouth to receive them. It's not gentle to handle the word of God in a way that denotes the seriousness of the situation.

Our generation has come to believe no matter what they do in life, they are qualified to be morality police. Without the slightest bit of proportion in their thinking, or with the slightest humility God is judged as a moral monster, something more horrible than they could ever be.

This same kind of thinking bleeds over into Christianity and into the pulpit. Hell is never mentioned, God's wrath, anger, hatred of sin and his judgments of old are 'bad press' and the pastor knows he will lose members faster by preaching that, than he would if he were a heretic on any foundational doctrine.

So, when scriptures such as those Savannah posted are presented...they go over like a lead balloon.

It's awful for so many to read Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Being clay, not our own clay but his clay, being subject to judgment and wrath or happy recipients of mercy and grace do not fall to the will and work of men. Oh how we hate that. A salvation, a calling, an election, a predestination, a choosing all done and none of us gets to veto that choice.

Oh how the scriptures are used to veto God's divine prerogative, scriptures used to negate election, to dismiss hell, to lift up mans will, to demote God's choices to 'necessary response' to mans wants and needs.

The scriptures that are to reveal God, are turned in such a way so that the plans and purposes of men over ride the Sovereign God.

The texts that Savannah quoted...those texts have been negated in a dozen different ways by todays preaching.
We love the materialist when it comes to answering for calamities occurring today. God is not involved in any of it. Like the Deist God is absent, quiet, uninvolved, distant, removed and therefore cannot in anyway be charged with actually judging, damning, hurting anyone. The materialist has given the Christian a way out. The materialist has a rationalistic and materialistic answer for it all. Bad parenting, bad society, poverty, shaming, racism, sexism; all of these are inserted into our Christian vernacular so that God suffers no bad press.
"David's child dies prematurely after his new union with Bathsheba"...Child had heart defect and was not able to live beyond a few days...so says the Jerusalem Post. How convenient, blame a physical defect...David's sin has no repercussions, God's response? He's sad and waiting for David realize who he is...this is his best life now.

So, my brothers and sisters, we are conditioned in this generation to talk like materialists and keep God's name from being blasphemed by avoiding those 'controversial' texts that lead to strife and quarrels in Church. The good Christian avoids reading them altogether because no good men's group or women's group discusses God killing children.

Hello, Savannah, I do not have much time to give a full answer, but I will just say the scriptures you have listed only prove my point.

Have you read Genesis 15:16
"16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full( perfected)."

Do you know what that means?
It means that God gave the nations who possessed the land a grace period if 400 years to turn and repent. It means that He couldn't judge them before they had exhausted all possibilities of redemption and became 100% wicked, until there was Not one spot of goodness. They have not yet reached that level of depravity when God was speaking with Abraham. It took them 400 years to get there.
We know from the scriptures that these nations practiced all forms of wickedness, preversion, demon worship, beastiality, incest, child sacrifice.

God was not doing anything more brutal than was already being done, but actually putting a stop to the ongoing practice of bloodshed.
Besides the fact that we don't have any proof from scriptures that infants go to hell when they die.

We do not have the minutest idea of the corruption that took place, at the time of Noah and also afterwards among the nations whom Israel possessed their land

I take Genesis 6:1-4 to mean sexual intercourse between fallen angelic beings and mankind that resulted in a breed of Giants.

Now, this is what I mean by making God a monterous being . As I understand Calvinism to teach, God withholds the ability to repent from man, then sends him to hell.

That kind of God, the scriptures know nothing of.

Oh my dear friend Marvin, every time you quote Romans 9 to prove your doctrine I get the urge to answer you but I lack the opportunity. I will get to you later on this. Context, my friend, is so important. Without context we get the scriptures to say what we want them to say. I am sure you don't want to be doing this.

Marvin, this is what I see you doing. You are applying the text universally when it is meant to target a certain class of people (namely the relegiously hardened). Those who violated the light given to them.

You can not do that, you can only apply the principle withdrawn from interpreting the text in it's original context universally.

Only the principle could be applied universally, not the text itself.

If you take the text out of it's original context you come up with conclusions or teachings that are different than what God through the Holy Spirit is trying to convey.

So, ask yourself. Who are the 2 classes of people addressed in Romans 9: 22 and 23

Is he talking about mankind in general? Or does he have a specific group of people in mind?

You don't have to do any guessing. All you have to do is read a couple of verses farther.

Hi Fifi: The great thing about context it's always been my friend. I don't have any private interpretations to offer, nor any Calvinist axe grind, I just like presenting the God of scripture without admixture.

So, who are these texts written to? Why the Romans of course, born again believers in Jesus. Ex-pagans too, and here's where they are included in God's election.

The religiously hardened get specific texts that's for sure.

Rom 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.
Rom 2:2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3 Do you suppose, O man””you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself””that you will escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

So, yea they do get addressed, but here not so, Paul is teaching the Gentile-Roman believers that they too are afforded grace and mercy by reason of God's own Election.

So, context is my friend, I don't know why it's so difficult to believe God elects Gentiles like Jews, shows mercy to Gentiles like he did Jews and to your disapproval hardeneth whom he wills.

You should know, vast multitudes have not heard the Gospel, because of this they died in their sins and were judged of God as enemies of Christ and the truth of God resident in their consciences convicts them of their own sins.

I read down those few verses...they say
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
Rom 9:26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
Rom 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,
Rom 9:28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay."
Rom 9:29 And as Isaiah predicted, "If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah."

So, in context I see us gentiles are called 'my people' by reason of Election, God bringing mercy to Gentiles through Christ.
This is universal in treatment because God speaking through Paul said..Rom 9:28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay." It takes no squishing the text into some 'calvinist' viewpoint to see this generosity of grace and mercy is toward Jew and Gentile the world over. But so also is his choice not to save some as the scripture clearly teaches a few verses prior.

Paul leaves the Romans with a stark reality and us too seeing as this letter written to the Romans was to be read in all the Churches and has been for almost 2000 years. That reality is this...Rom 9:29 And as Isaiah predicted, "If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah."

If it was not for God's mercies, God goodness expressed and revealed in Christ, we too would be no better than the Jews and would have entered the same judgment as they. But God be thanked we have received grace.

This very plain teaching of scripture is like a hair in someones food, they discard it as soon as they see it. You will find Arminian teaching on Romans 8 that goes on for years, but Romans 9...in and out in a day. Why? Because Fifi they do understand, but it's contrary to their human-mindset namely they are taught by men from scripture God really doesnt have an election and only really bad people will ever see 'hardening'. It's because of this avoidance of Romans 9 anyone that actually believes its context...cannot be contextually correct in your mind and others.

Harry: "Jesus might have died for you.”

Lloyd: "”So you’re saying there’s a chance...”

Marvin, why are you not answering my question directly. I know you understand what I meant. I didn't ask you who the letter of Romans was written to . I asked who are the two groups of people Paul is speaking of in Romans 9:22 and 23.. we all know the letter of Romans was written to the gentile believers in Rome who were made to doubt their salvation by the jewdaizers or think it was incomplete unless they get circumcised.

Simple answer. Paul is speaking about 2 groups of people from chapter 1 all the way to chapter 11. One long argument, and it appeard in all of his letters. The jew/ gentile argument. Not the Arminian/ calvinist argument as we have been told.

I, for one, love Romans 9. It was what God used to show me that Calvinism was man made system with no foundation in scriptures.

I have been around Arminians most of my life and have not seen one person dispute election or predestination.
But they also understand it in a proper way. Paul mentions election because the Jews herassed the gentile believers and insisted that unless they become Jews and get circumcised, their salvation was lacking in some way. They argued that God has only one chosen( elect) people group and if anyone want to follow the God of israel, he must enter through the covenant of circumcision and keep the law.

That is the only reason Paul mentions election by saying that those who believe in Jesus are the elect, not those who belong to a geneological line or keep some ceremonial custom.

Young's Literal Translation

Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1

Young's translation while awkward is more literal and helps us see that believing is the result of having been born of God.

Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God -

The verb believing is in the present tense and the verb born is perfect tense. John Stott explains that this "shows clearly that believing is the consequence, not the cause, of the new birth. Our present, continuing activity of believing is the result, and therefore the evidence, of our past experience of new birth by which we became and remain God’s children."

We are commanded to preach the Gospel to every creature. We're not told to get, Theo-logical, with those we are making the proclamation of our King Jesus to.

His Word and His Spirit give life to whom He will.

John 5:21

For even as the Father raises up the dead and gives life, thus also the Son gives life to whom He will.

In the physical realm, if a husband and wife desire a child, they can do all that is in their power to do, yet they are unable to produce life. God must create life in the womb.

The Harry and Lloyd thingy is not comparing spiritual things with spiritual, as we're told to do.

1 Cor. 2:13

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The Gospel is the Power of God...so let's just preach that and trust God to do what no man can!

Amen Savannah, i actually believe that faith is producdd in the heart as a response to divine revelation. Man can not believe on his own. However, I also believe that man can resist the revelation given.

I know you were addressing Todd but I was so happy we agreed on something I had to say so.

Marvin,

Romans 9 19-21

"
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

Not a predestination, election, Arminian/ Calvinist argument, but jew/ gentile argument. It is simply what God will do to a religiously hardened people. Just as he has chosen them not because of their rightousness but because of the wickedness of the nations around them, he will also replace them with another nation if they became more wicked than the nations around them which is exactly what happened

Please look up Jeremiah 18

"The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,

2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,

6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good"

Harry: "Jesus might have died for you.”

Lloyd: "”So you’re saying there’s a chance...”

Nonsense

Real-world evangelism.

Harry: "Jesus died for sinners"
Lloyd: "who cares, I don't need religion"

Harry: "Jesus is judge and creator of all men, you should care"
Lloyd: "Well, I don't care, I am fine without religion"

This is the kind of conversations that are normally had with sinners.

Point is, building an anti-Calvinist stance into your evangelism or a sinners response is deceptive to you and anyone reading you.

Anti-election always assumes that it must know the hidden things of God in order to preach the revealed things of God.
We don't know who's names are written in the lambs book of life, but we do know what the gospel says and what it promises. Let it suffice to offer the revealed will of God so that those things which are hidden do not become an unnecessary stumbling block.

Hi Fifi: your holding a position on Romans 9 that Romans 9 does not teach.

It's not a jew/gentile argument, you must have read or listened to some teacher who like yourself cannot stomach God choosing, so in order to negate that, must isogete the text with an argument not related to this text.

The point of Pauls teaching on Romans 9 is announced up front.

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though (Q)the word of God has failed

The real question Paul is anticipating concerning the Jews unbelief is "have the promises of God failed"?

So, Paul deals with election for both Jew and Gentile in this chapter.

Remember context as you said is important, your errant interpretation is due to injecting an argument that is not the context of this Chapter.

I don't know why you would love romans 9, it stands against what you believe and what you teach. There is no relief for you in Romans 9, only resistance to an anti-election belief.

I get it that you believe you hold the final ace, that your human will can trump God whenever it wants. Ok.

//We don't know who's names are written in the lambs book of life, but we do know what the gospel says and what it promises. Let it suffice to offer the revealed will of God so that those things which are hidden do not become an unnecessary stumbling block.//

How can a Calvinist weep for lost souls when their theology says God never wanted them saved in the first place? It is absolutely ridiculous.

Marvin,

How could you not see this. Well, the very verses you quoted prove that it is a Jew / gentile argument. For Paul wished his kinsmen the Jews to be saved but they did not believe in the promise of God in Jesus Christ. Insread, they rested confidently in the fact they were Abraham descendants. But if Abraham himself could not will his own son Ismael to be saved, furthermore, even Isaac himself( the son of promise) could not will Esau to be saved, then salvation is of faith, not of blood line or geneology.

I love Romans 9 because it was what God used to expose the lies of Calvinist to me.

I believe in election because it is a biblical doctrine but I don't have to believe your definition of it .

God's elect are according to the for- knowledge of God who forsaw that the gentiles will believe in the promise in Jesus Christ.

The hardening of the Jews allowed for the entering of the gentiles, and if they continue not in their hardening, they too will be grafted back in and if the gentiles continue not in the faith, they too will be cut off as the Jews were.

I did not have to read any books or listen to any preachers to see this. God's word alone is sufficient and self explanatory for those who are not blinded by man's theological creeds.

Where does it say in the Bible that those who come to God by faith have something to boast about. That is your own invention. Not in the Bible anywhere or I challenge you to site the verses.

Dear friends, I challenge every one here to read God's word for yourselves. Read it and read it again. Read whole books at a time. The whole book of Romans takes only an hour to read. Read the whole book ones a day for a whole month and ask the Holy Spirit to open it up to your understanding. The Bible is much much simpler than you think. You don't need to read " the bondage of the will" by Luther or " the freedom of the will " by Edwards in order to understand the Bible. God only requires a simplicity of a child and a will to do the will of God. Jesus says those who possessed these two requirements will understand the doctrine.

Do not be bullied by people who will try to make you feel less of a Christian if you stand for God's truth revealed in his word and refuse to cave into their pressure, and conform to their theological boxes.

Stand firm on God's unchanging word.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh””who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands””

God's teaching OR man's teaching.

We are told in the Bible:

1) we are saved by grace through faith
2) That salvation is not of our selves
3) That salvation is not by works of circumcision or belonging to a particular blood line
4) That salvation is the gift of God given freely through faith to all who believe.
5) because salvation is of faith we have nothing to boast of. If that salvation was given because of a work of circumcision or ancestry, only a certain class of people could boast to possess it, but thanks be to God, now Jew and gentile alike can come by faith to possess the promise.

Glory be to God, how unfathomable are His ways.

But man says.
If we come to God by faith we have something to boast of. We are placing our will above the will of God and taking his throne. We are a big shot following our atheistic instinct from our past of unbelief.

Can anyone else see the twisting of Truth or is it just me?

Fifi: You are mischaracterizing what I am saying.

1. I have never posted at anytime acting in faith toward God is something to boast of.
2. Your last post articulates what I do believe and have posted some 600 plus times in this discussion website.
3. If you feel to be less of a Christian because of our discussion, we should break it off, my intention is to open up the matter for discussion and thought...not to demean someone because of disagreement.
4. Since you believe in a version of election...namely we elect ourselves and God responds by saying "now that I know they will choose me, I will chose them", you do not believe in biblical election, you believe in election-by-human-origin. This is common among arminians.
5. When you finally must deal with the context of Romans 9, you must jettison the idea of Jew/gentile argument, you had to concede it is about the Jews unbelief and the promises of God. Pauls' answer is election by God's choosing not 'him that willeth or him that runneth'.
6. Quote: "But man says.
If we come to God by faith we have something to boast of. We are placing our will above the will of God and taking his throne. We are a big shot following our atheistic instinct from our past of unbelief."
I attribute this kind of thinking to the arminians not myself or Calvinists per-se.

So, with that I will end our discussion thanks for your responses.

Hi Todd, sorry I missed your post, I'll finish out by saying in response to your question.
How can a Calvinist weep for lost souls when their theology says God never wanted them saved in the first place? It is absolutely ridiculous

Jesus told us to pray for workers to enter the harvest, He told us to preach the gospel and make disciples...I've done this all my Christian life...and Ive never known who God will save and who he will not, but Ive never been required to have that knowledge. I have been required to be faithful with what he has said and that is sufficient.

Because there is an elect chosen of God whom he will save...that is sure footing to believe God will keep his promises to send the Spirit of God to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment...and bring them to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation...not some pretended knowledge of who might be written in the lambs book of life.

Jesus knows who will be saved and who will not, nevertheless he issued the commands to pray and witness, I think that is reason enough.

//Jesus knows who will be saved and who will not, nevertheless he issued the commands to pray and witness, I think that is reason enough.//

Hey Marvin-

I know you have to say things like this but have you ever stepped back and deeply considered a sentence like that?

Perhaps, just perhaps, he commands us to pray and witness because men and women will be TRULY PERSUADED through prayer and witness to repent and believe. I know that sounds outrageous, but maybe, just maybe it’s the truth.

Todd,

Rather than asking such a question of christians which you call by another name, what YOU ought to do is ask yourself the question, why YOU do not weep for lost souls.

Get to work Todd! Weep Todd! Get on your knees Todd!

Many a missionary, pastor, evangelist and the like, who have wept, prayed, and worked tirelessly for the Kingdom of God, have believed the truth of the Scriptures regarding what some would refer to as calvinism.

I prefer to use biblical words such as elect, predestined, will, and the like, rather than a man's name that has been attached to them.

Let's all get to work! Let's all do the work of an evangelist!
Let's all live what we believe and are called to, i.e a holy life. Let's all stop playing church and mixing with the world.

And may it start with me!

And may all who read say, "may it start with me!"

//Many a missionary, pastor, evangelist and the like, who have wept, prayed, and worked tirelessly for the Kingdom of God, have believed the truth of the Scriptures regarding what some would refer to as calvinism//

That is because deep down in their heart of hearts they realize that belief system is untenable.

Todd,

You claim to know what these men know deep down in their heart of hearts.

What arrogance Todd!

What follows is where such men stand;

How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GLAD TIDINGS OF GOOD THINGS!” Romans 10:14,15

We notice the logic of Paul’s progression here. He lists a series of necessary conditions for people to be saved. Without sending there are no preachers. Without preachers there is no preaching. Without preaching there is no hearing of the gospel. Without the hearing of the gospel there is no believing of the gospel. Without the believing of the gospel there is no calling upon God to be saved. Without the calling upon God to be saved there is no salvation.

God not only foreordains the end of salvation for the elect, he also foreordained the means to that end. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching as the means to accomplish redemption. I suppose he could have worked out his divine purpose without us. He could publish the gospel in the clouds using his holy finger in skywriting. He could preach the gospel himself, in his own voice, shouting it from heaven. But that is not his choice.

We have a meaningful role to play in evangelism. We preach and we proclaim the gospel. That is our duty and our privilege. But it is God who brings the increase. He does not need us to accomplish his purpose, but he is pleased to use us in the task.
- RC Sproul

The above also answers your post to Marvin regarding men being "truly persuaded."

So Todd...are YOU going to get to work!

Or, are you going to stay in bed!

Do you see?
Do you see?
All the people sinking down?
Don't you care?
Don't you care?
Are you gonna let them drown?

How can you be so numb?!
Not to care if they come
You close your eyes,
And pretend the job is done

"Oh, bless me, Lord!
Bless me, Lord!"
You know, it's all I ever hear!
No one aches,
No one hurts,
No one even sheds one tear
But, He cries,
He weeps,
He bleeds,
And He cares for your needs
And you just lay back,
And keep soaking it in

Oh, can't you see such sin?!
'Cause He brings people to your door,
And you turn them away
As you smile and say:
"God bless you!
Be at peace!"
And all Heaven just weeps,
'Cause Jesus came to your door,
You left Him out on the streets

Open up! Open up!
And give yourself away
You see the need,
You hear the cries,
So how can you delay?!
God is calling,
And you are the one
But like Jonah, you run
He told you to speak,
But you keep holding it in

Oh, can't you see such sin?!
The world is sleeping in the dark,
That the church just can't fight,
'Cause it's asleep in the light!
How can you be so dead?!
When you've been so well fed
Jesus rose from the grave,
And you!
You can't even getta out of bed!
Oh, Jesus rose from the dead!
Common, get out of your bed!

How can you be so numb?!
Not to care if they come
You close your eyes,
And pretend the job is done!
You close your eyes,
And pretend the job is done!
Don't close your eyes,
Don't pretend the job is done

Come away! Come away!
Come away with Me, My love!
Come away from this mess,
Come away with Me, My love!
Come away from this mess!
Come away with Me, My love!
Come away,
Come away with Me My love!

Keith Green - Asleep in the Light

//The above also answers your post to Marvin regarding men being "truly persuaded."//

Hardly. It just further displays the absurdity.

//That is because deep down in their heart of hearts they realize that belief system is untenable.//

I think you're onto something there, Todd😉

Scripture:

Heb. 12:18-24 ”“
18 For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19 and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command, "IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.” 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Rev. 19:7-8 ”“
7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Rev. 21:1-2 ”“
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev. 21:9-11 ”“
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper.

Rev. 21:23-24 ”“
23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

Rev. 22:1-2 ”“
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Rev. 22:17 ”“
17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come.” And let the one who hears say, "Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

Rev. 5:11-14 ”“
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

Hi Marvin,

Who to you are:

(1) The "nations” in Rev. 21:24 who will walk by New Jerusalem’s light.

(2) The "nations” in Rev. 22:2 who will be healed.

(3) The "one who wishes” in Rev. 22:17 who can take the water of life without cost.

(4) The "every created thing” in Rev. 5:13 who will exalt God.

Blessings.

Goodnight Todd!

I just now noticed the "Do Not Disturb" sign on your door.

Sleep tight!

"And when the Gentiles HEARD this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life BELIEVED." (Acts 13:48).

Mary

You also have to look at Acts 13:46:

"Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.”

"Appointed” is a bad translation. "Disposed” is better and is used elsewhere in Acts associated with actions and decisions of people, not divine intervention.

Hi Jade: The questions you asked...you are a good bible student yourself, I'm not sure why you ask me?

Q1. Those nations are the Elect of God, born again believers representing all of the various nations of the earth, now come together as one body and one bride for Jesus Christ.
Found here...Rev5:9 And they *sang a new song, saying,
"(Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
Q2. Same as Q1.
Q3. Same as Q1
Q4. All creatures capable of spiritual worship; man, angels, living creatures described in Ezek, Rev.

Todd,

"Appointed" is a good translation :) It also translates as "ordained, chosen, fixed, set."

Wondering where you see "decisions" being made in the Book of Acts?

Mary

It’s takes about 5 seconds in a google search to find discussions of the Greek word translated as "appointed.”

v 48 has to be read in conjunction with v 46.

Not sure what you mean by your last statement.

Sorry Todd,

I misunderstood YOUR last statement that the word "disposed" being used 'elsewhere in Acts associated with ... actions and decisions of people, not divine intervention' ... as pertaining to salvation by the will. That is why I asked the question.

Mary

Hi Marvin,

There are two different entities in the scriptures I referred to. Time has ended and eternity has begun. Old earth is gone. We are now in a new heaven and a new earth. And the church which is the bride of the Lamb is now the perfected and glorious New Jerusalem. (Re: Rev. 21).

Re: Q.1

There are:

(1) The church which is now the perfected and glorious New Jerusalem illuminated by the glory of God and the Lamb is its lamp (Rev. 21:23).

AND

(2) The nations who will walk by the light of the church/New Jerusalem.

Re: Q.2

There are:

(1) The church which is now the perfected and glorious New Jerusalem which does not need healing.

AND

(2) The nations to be healed and remain healed (Rev. 22:2).

Re: Q.3

There are:

(1) The Spirit and the bride (which is the church) giving the invitation to take the water of life without cost.

AND

(2) The "one who wishes” to whom the invitation is given.

Re: Q.4

Rev. 5:13 corresponds with Phil. 2:10.

Phil. 2:10 ”“
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

EVERY living creature. EVERY knee. EVERY tongue.

Would anyone suffering absolute anguish and endless torment in terrible hell exalt God?

Isa. 66:23 ”“
……All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.

And all mankind will abhor their wicked "old man” who has been crucified with Christ.

Isa. 66:24 ”“
"Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."

(Note: The worm will not die and the fire will not be quenched on the CORPSES. Our wicked "old man” will not rise again.)

1 Cor. 15:22 ”“
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Hallelujah!

\\\\Would anyone suffering absolute anguish and endless torment in terrible hell exalt God?\\\\

God does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, but he does subject them to everlasting and unbearable torment.

Ezekiel 33:11

\\\\And all mankind will abhor their wicked "old man” who has been crucified with Christ\\\\

No, this is universalism.

Those who do not turn from their wickedness and reject God grace will suffer forever.

Either Christ pays for your sins or you do.

I don’t really know what universalism is so can’t comment on your statement.

I am only interested in what the Bible says.

EZEKIEL 33:11 --
Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

Has God not got the power to bring all mankind to repentance?

John 1:29 ”“
Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Will not the Lamb of God receive the full reward of His suffering?

I find it hard to understand why Christians are so opposed to the salvation of all. For myself, I look forward to and will rejoice in that glorious eternal day when sin will be totally eradicated, when Christ is all in all, and at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. I know and love and delight in my God of tender mercies and great love.

Anyway, I will leave this discussion here.

God bless.

//I find it hard to understand why Christians are so opposed to the salvation of all//

Could it be because that's what Jesus taught when his disciples asked him if there few that are saved.

"23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?”

And He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust outside."

//(Note: The worm will not die and the fire will not be quenched on the CORPSES. Our wicked "old man” will not rise again.)//

I am a little confused. Is this the "old man" as in Romans 6:6

So, you're saying the corpses in Isiah 66 are the old man in Romans 6

How could you take something from one context to another. The context is completely and utterly unrelated!!!

I have heard some wacky interpretations of the Bible but I must say this one have excelled them all.

No, brother, we just don't have the freedom to play games with God's word. That is taking the place of God. I fear for you.

Hi Jade:

Well, in all fairness there is still mystery surrounding the Revelation texts, but what can be understood from explicit-cross referenced teaching clears up alot.

First off, I'm really tired today and if I bif it, just chalk it up to that and not some heretical viewpoint.

Jade, I dont see two different nations being spoken of in Revelation 21 or 22.

Your series of 4 questions were attempting to point to these two different 'entities' or nations, so you asked questions in order to point them out in answer to your own questions.

You said..
"There are two different entities in the scriptures I referred to."
Then you said..There are:

(1) The church which is now the perfected and glorious New Jerusalem illuminated by the glory of God and the Lamb is its lamp (Rev. 21:23).
(2) The nations who will walk by the light of the church/New Jerusalem.

The next two responses are where you pose the same interpretation of 'entities'.

I personally cannot see where you are able to create 'two' different 'kinds' of nations.

Let me examine..
Revelation 21:23 with some context..

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day””and there will be no night there.
Rev 21:26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Now, you said... "The nations who will walk by the light of the church/New Jerusalem."

John tells us clearly in this chapter those who walk in any 'light' are walking in the glory of God, and the light of the Lamb. It's not the Churches light, but the Light of God's glory and the light of God's Son.
Therefore those who walk in that are who? That is answered here, vs 27 "but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life."
So those who walk in the light of the Lamb, and those who enter the city and those who bring glory and honor into it are those who are written in the lambs book of life=those who are born of God and have overcome=those who have obeyed and have the right to the tree of life.
This is everywhere taught in Paul and John, so the comparisons and theology tying it all together has no mystery.

In Q2, you differentiate because of the needed 'healing' of nations. This is not as clear as the first, but the one thing we cannot do is inject another 'kind' of nation than one who is 'written in the lambs book of life'.
So, it appears the leaves of the tree of life "not the fruit", but the leaves are for healing. What is being healed? I don't know for sure, Ezekiel alludes to it...
Eze 47:12 And on the banks, on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither, nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing."

In "Q3, you then make a division relating another 'nation that needs healing and now needs an invitation'. To me the original premise is errant, therefore this last one shows how impossible it is for 'unsaved' nations needing healing and gospel invite can live in the temple of God, the city of God, in God's own direct presence. No such thing is possible this side of heaven and Revelations 20 lets us know in a whole chapter how it is impossible for sinners of various kinds to dwell in the direct presence of God.

lastly as to the invitation...
The Writer is stepping back from his visions to speak to his audience and issue the invitation which the whole Church in harmony with him proclaims as well "Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

This invitation is to be given now, received now and when heeded is good for the entrance to the waters of life.

The last part where you seem to dabble in some universalism You should know what this is and why its heretical, that may in fact be leading you to the conclusions you've made in Rev 21 and 22.

I hope this clarifies my position.

Thank you, Marvin, for your response.

Just briefly,

The nations will be walking in the light of the Lamb through the New Jerusalem/church who will be kings and priests with Christ, the great High Priest and King of kings and Lord of Lords.

There will be no sinners in God’s eternity. All will be every moment cleansed and healed through the Tree of Life that is by the River of Life.

NO, I DO NOT know what universalism really is. I only have a very vague idea of what it is about. And I have absolutely no intention of wasting valuable time to research on it, now or ever. If anyone wishes to refute what I say, just give me plain scripture. I am wary of the doctrines of men.

I find in the Bible numerous verses pointing to the salvation of all. God Himself will establish His Truth. If I am wrong, what I say "will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God. (Acts 5:38-39)"

You have given your views and I have given mine. Our salvation is in the Lord Jesus and is not dependent on whether or not we believe that all men will be saved. Let us leave it at this.

Blessings.

Some plain scripture:

"This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

"I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

"....the lamp (of the city) is the Lamb...and nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."

"Blesses are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers, and everyone who loves and practices lying."

Mary

Reply asap when free.

Quote Jade: "Has God not got the power to bring all mankind to repentance?

John 1:29 ”“
Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Will not the Lamb of God receive the full reward of His suffering?"

Answer: "for God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes (act of obedience) in Him should not perish but should receive the gift of Eternal Life. He who believes shall be saved, he who does not believe is already condemned."

Surely this indicates that some will believe and be saved and others not?

I am really busy so am not able to give you a full reply.

Just a quick comment:

Isa. 66:23 ”“
……All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.

How is this going to happen or do you reject this word of the Lord?

Blessings

Quote//Isa. 66:23 ”“
……All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.

How is this going to happen or do you reject this word of the Lord?//

That's in the new heaven and new earth.

Context, people. PLEASE
Just read the previous verse;(v.22)
Please do not snatch Bible verses and run away with them. That's another form of rejecting the word of the Lord.