Would You Consider Abortion in These Four Situations?

Would You Consider Abortion in These Four Situations?Battle Cry - Issue Date: January/February 19991. There is a preacher and wife who are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she is pregnant with her 15th. They are living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending abortion?2. The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. They have 4 children. The first is blind, the second is dead. The third is deaf and the fourth has TB. The mother finds she is pregnant again. Given the extreme situation, would you recommend abortion?3. A man raped a 13 year old black girl and she got pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She is not married. Her fiancee is not the father of the baby, and he is very upset. Would you recommend an abortion?If you have answered “yes” to any of these situations:In the first case you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists of the 19th century.In the second case, you would have killed Beethoven.In the third case you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer.In the fourth case you would have recommended the murder of Jesus Christ.With U. S. abortion deaths topping 30 million, only God knows what we have sacrificed in lost human talent and creativity.Powerful!RT

Scripture teaches that God is the Author of life - the One who opens and closes the womb. There are no "chance" pregnancies.Dan/\\/\\/\\

I like your question and following answer/observation with historical refrence. It would seem in this day and age what we see so often coming from the liberal news media and Holleywood is that very question you askked in the begining. They take and extreme situation and place it in a lovely setting and manipulate the masses to side with them by degrees , while at the same time undermining the very morals that support our values and by that they taint our judgements. They'll have much to answer for in the soon coming days as the door of oppurnity slowly closes in repentance for many.

Scenario 1:It is the Holy Spirit's job to convict her of sin. I would tell her to ask God about it - if God reveals to her that she could have done something, and she feels convicted therefore that she is guilty of that murder, then she would need to confess that to the Lord.Scenario 2:I would explain to her from scripture that God has already made a person inside her, and that murdering this child is not only a crime against her own progeny, but more importantly is a sin against God. I would also show her how really she was being selfish - and willing to kill her own child in order to be so.Scenario 3I would first determine if the mother's life were really in danger. This particular scenario is all but eliminated in the first world. If her doctor was couselling her in this direction, I would tell her to get another opinion. Scenario 4Again, as in Scenario three - this is not a realistic scenario in our day and age. I would advise the father to do a bit of research in the matter, then find another doctor.Scenario 5:I would counsel the father-to-be to use every effort to convince his wife that murder is still murder even if one is ending the life of a person with disabilities. I would also remind him that frequently these tests are wrong, and healthy babies are needlessly murdered. If you despise a fool, you despise the God who made him.Scenario 6I would counsel the minor to encourage the mother-to-be to have the baby, since conspiring to murder is murder in the heart. I would explain to the minor that God, being the Author of life and the one who opens and closes the womb, has not made a mistake in allowing the young man and women to reap the seed that is planted. Whether the boy intends to take responsibility for his actions or not, murder is never an option.Dan/\\/\\/\\

I may be off, but i think it's dangerous to ask quetions like this. I don't believe that there is any way to TRULY know what you would say to any of the people in theses situations. We can be trained to respond a certin way, but training may fail when "pregnant female" goes from a statstic to your best friend. As far as the counseling part goes, God will help us find the words, if or (God forbid) when any of these situations confront you. just my opinon....don;t take this as a rebuke just food for thought.

Dorcas, as a Christian who has worked in the pro-life movement for 15 years and have counseled many pro-abortion minded women, I think I can give you some answers based on our experiences.#1: Sin is still sin regardless of the circumstances. Unless you treat this incident as sin, there is no hope for the individual you just mentioned because there would be no healing that comes from forgiveness. Confession of sin and repentence will result in forgiveness and healing for the grief this girl will expeience when she relizes the extent of her sin. AND the girl got pregnant by having sex. Whether she was raped or whether it was consensual, makes no difference. #2: I have asked many females who were wanting to have an AB this question: "What in your mind is an abotion?" They say, with very few exceptions; "It is killing a baby!" Dorcas, these women know it is wrong, they have told me so but think God will make an exception in their case! #3: For the one who is advised to have an Ab for health reasons: the experts will tell you such a scenario rarely happens. Many have been advised to abort for 'health' reasons - for either her or the child - and because of conscience reasons, refused. They committed their lives into the hand of the giver of life and came through the pregnancy well. Our daughter, Regina, conceived after she got a brain tumor which complicated the doctors ability to treat her. At thirty weeks the baby was born by c-section because she was dying. Both survived the procedure well. She died over nine months later. I asked the doctor if she would have aborted the child early on if that would have increased the probability of her survival and he said "no". Then the question is asked "what about a tubal pregnancy?" The mother is hemorrhaging and now the doctor will remove the offending zygote and repair the fallopian wall. This is a non-issue because you do not have here a viable fetus and both are dying, the mother and the zygote/fetus. #4:see above. #5:This is one of the facts of life - not all will be born normal. But the deformed child is no less a human being then the normal one. And doctors have been wrong in predicting the child's health. I know of cases where the patient took the physician's advice and got an 'therapeutic" abortion and the baby was normal. Talk about some angry people!!!! I advised them to sue the doctor for malpractice because he did this to others. But the trauma was so severe they did not want to relieve it which would happen if they would be called to testify. BTW: we wondered whether he was selling baby parts.... Oh, and I do have a grandson who has Down's syndrome. Now you have situations in which the fetus really is deformed and its ability to live outside the womb is nil. Why not let nature take its course? We had a family in our church who followed the advice of their physician to have the child 'taken' because it was in a trauma, knowing the probability to live was very small. Later, this couple regretted what they allowed themselves to be talked into. She experienced severe grief, sorrow and guilt. Letting nature take its course is the best. #6:This happens all the time. Abortion is still killing and a sin. If the family would be too traumatized, there is always the option of adoption. Many will object saying, "if I go through nine months of pregnancy, I can not give my child up for adoption!" Then I say, "so you would rather kill it?" "Yes!" is their reply.What about rape victims? One of my rape victims told me it is grossly unfair to punish/kill a child for the behavior of someone else! True, and if you find it too difficult to keep the baby, go to a reliable adoption agency and let them find an adoptive family for the child. To adopt your child out will require a lot of grace from the LORD but it has been done. Abortion appears like an easy way out for tough situations. But this is a lie. Abortions never solves problems; it creates problems greater then the woman ever imagined, although these problems may not be apparent at the moment, the laws of spiritual life are that they may surface up to twenty years after the fact.In many - not all - situations in which a crises pregnacy occurs there is some other sins involved: like adultery or fornication. (Even married women may have stepped out on their husband, unknown to him...now insist on aborting because she is afraid of the child parentage, more so if the father is of a different race). Many females are hooking up with mere acquaintences, do not even like the male and then when they conceive, hate the child and will abort for no other reason then they just DO NOT WANT THE BABY! I would suggest that when a female finds herelf in a crises pregnancy, to find a Crises Pregnancy Center and go in for counseling. Although most counselors are volunteers, not professionals, we were required to keep abreast of the latest developments that impacted the pregnant woman. And our purpose there is to help. After being there 15 years I have heard every horror story imaginable and then some unimaginable. This is why I am so thankful for the work of the cross and how it cleanses, redeems fallen peoples. Nothing is too hard for the LORD IF one submits to its cleansing. It should also be noted that since abortion has become wide spread, the divorce rate has gone through the roof. The old people used to say when people fornicate before marriage, they are liable to cheat on their spouses after they marry. Hence, a rise in the divorce rate. What do you think? Blessings,Ginnyrose

I believe my Hero would answer with this, First answer me this question; when is murder not murder? We must have an answer as to what is our HOPE. we must first have the answer to give an answer. Work it out someone will ask, if not here then somewhere else. Find your answer, the Holy Spirit will give you one if you ask. Prayer ,Prayer,Prayer

In response to dorcas' earlier post...1) to the person who is now coming to Christ... How should they view an abortion they had in the past because they were under the age of consent and it was arranged for them with little consultation of their wishes and absolutely no option to keep the baby offered. They were enabled to continue education, now have a good job and have loved every minute of the freedom which being childless has afforded them? Incidentally, her parents are Christians. (Remember, you are speaking to her, not them.)I wouldn't consider it their sin, but a past tragedy. If they were forced into abortion, it's not their fault. Think of the rape of an unmarried woman. She's technically had premarital sex, but does God count it as sin against her?2) to the Christian who is being advised to have an abortion for other than health reasons to herself?You weren't very specific here. I'd still say no abortion. I don't even think health reasons is a good reason for abortion. I guess I'll address that in the next situation, though.3) to the to the Christian or the non-Christian who is being advised to have an abortion in order to save her own life?To the Christian, I'd quote Philippians 2:3, " Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves." That child comes first, even before your own life. As a woman, if I knew 100% that giving birth would kill me, I'd start writing a will and making funeral preparations.To the non-Christian, I honestly don't know what I'd say to her. I'd try to convince her to try...that her child was worth dying for. But I'd also pray for God's mercy and for Him to shed light onto the matter for her, and for her salvation, in hopes that the presence of the Holy Spirit in her life would make an impact that would lead to God's glory. It's hard, but life isn't easy.4) To the Christian father whose wife may die if she doesn't 'lose the baby'?What do you say to the man who lost his wife and children in a terrible car accident? God works toward the good of those who love Him. God gave him his time with his wife, and is now preparing for him to share his time with his child. In death, life is birthed. Christ's death gave us an opportunity to be reborn into new life. His wife's sacrifice is noble, and will be honored in Heaven.5) to a father-to-be whose wife wants to take the option of abortion she's been given, because the baby is going to be seriously disabled?Tell him to try to convince her to give it up for adoption. If she feels unable to care for it, there are MILLIONS of couples unable to have any child, and would love to lavish the child with attention and care for his/her every need. To kill someone just because they're disabled is just mind-numbingly cruel and savage. It's not a life that's within our jurisdiction to kill, whether they're physically or mentally disabled. Who's that mathematical genius who's paralyzed from the neck down...talks through a computer?6) to a minor, the child of a Christian family, who finds he's going to be a dad, unless the girl has an abortion. Her family are not Christians, their daughter is young and they don't want her to have the baby.He needs to go and talk to the family, tell them that when he's legally old enough, he'll get legally wed to their daughter, and he needs to tell them he will not abandon her. By having sex with her, he married her in God's books, and now he needs to be responsible for the commitment he made in that action. If they force her into abortion, that is one of the MANY repurcussions of his sins, and he better get on his knees and say his sorries, and abortion or not, he is her husband, if he's to live the Christian life.Abortion is a sore spot in my heart, and I don't have pity for anyone who has an abortion. My husband gives a great example.There's a drunk driver, and he hits a car carrying an old woman, and her two grandchildren: a young boy and girl.The young girl is dies en route to the hospital, after enduring intense suffering. The young boy is paralyzed from the neck down. The old woman is badly hurt, but recovers...but is without a granddaughter and must help care for her grandson.The drunk driver CANNOT rescind this incident. He chose to get drunk, he chose not to have a designated driver, he chose not to call a cab, he chose to get in that car drunk. He CANNOT take back what has happened, but he can accept the consequences and do everything in his power to make the situation as best as possible.The woman considering abortion (usually) chose to have sex in the first place. You can use the rape example all you like, but you know that not every woman in that clinic was raped. 99% of those women chose to have sex, knowing that sex's primary purpose is for procreation (contrary to what society would like us to believe). If she CANNOT care for a child, she can give it up for adoption. There is NEVER a reason for abortion, when adoption is an option.Like the drunk driver, the woman sitting in the abortion clinic had a choice, and with choices comes consequences, and whether she likes those consequences or not, she's responsible for them. If you're enough of a "big girl" to have sex, you better prepared to be enough of a "big girl" to be a mother, or have the integrity to let someone else be one who is unable to bear children.

#5:This is one of the facts of life - not all will be born normal. But the deformed child is no less a human being then the normal one. And doctors have been wrong in predicting the child's health This was the case with my second son. The doctor gave us no hope of haveing a normal baby and we had emergency room counsil to AB. My wife's health was at risk and she was bleeding. After ex-rays all the bad counsil came, abort. We stuck to our convictions and asked the Lord for His intervention. We also took it to our church family.Today we have a healthy almost 13yr old son who's very much a prayer warrior and christian. I know he's the apple of God's eye, but he's the apple of my eye too.Thankful for God's mercies. In Christ Bro. Daryl

Beautiful testimony Dohzman!

I personally would recommend abortion as soon as I would recommend suicide. I wouldn't do either. I believe God will forgive if you repent and I also believe God is a healer.

Preacher Parsley,One of the saddest things I have never seen happen is when a woman who knows full well what an aborton is, knows God does not approve, that is it sin and goes ahead and does it anyways and then repents. I have seen women who have repented and experienced forgiveness for having had an AB but never have I seen one who has gone against better knowledge. If there is such a person, I would love to talk with her. Repentance after an AB is extrememly difficult, at best. Females who had one had to defy nature, instinct. In order to experience forgiveness you have to be 100% sorry for your sin; 99.9% sorry is not good enough. Women who feel the AB was the tiniest bit justified cannot experience forgiveness. This is why the sin is so terrible and should never be contemplated. Dorcas, I am wondering where you are going with your questions? Perhaps you will inform us that the birth control pill is an abortifacient? I personally know some Christian physicians who will refuse to subscribe it to women for this reason...and if this is true, how about all the women who take it and are ignorant of this fact? are they sinning? Dorcas, your questions provoke more questions.....Thought provoking thread...Blessings,Ginnyrose

There is an important issue that I believe we must consider – and that is of GUILT and SHAME – not only for those who have had an abortion, but also for those who did not. Carrying secret guilt and shame for having a baby out of wedlock can be far more devastating than we realize. It gets passed down to the children who may sense that they were never wanted. They suffer intensely as a result, though they may not even know why. There is possibly no greater psychic pain than shame, even though it is rarely discussed. The church aught to be an instrument of healing and forgiveness. But when it stays stuck in the message of how evil extra marital sex is, or abortion is, it leaves a lot of women hiding their secret sins of the past – for fear of being further shamed by the church. I think of all the young teenaged girls who crave for fatherly love and acceptance because they never knew it at home. They try to fill the void in whatever way they can – even if it means “selling” their bodies to another man. Their actions are no more evil than that of many successful looking Christians who sell themselves to the praises of man in order to feel accepted. Here is a true story (I was told) of a teen who got pregnant through an affair with her father’s 30 yo hired man. The mother became so anger that she determined to remove the evidence by forcing an abortion with knitting needles. As a result her daughter bled to death. Obviously the mother couldn’t face the shame this grand child would have brought to her – tragically, at the expense of her own beloved daughter. I don’t know her situation, but it reminds us that while we preach law, we also must be aware of the reality of guilt and shame – and therefore we must preach a message of mercy. One more thought: I don’t think that we can discuss the evils of abortion without considering the countless who were never even conceived in the first place. A leading psychiatrist and family therapist once told me that the Pill was one of the most destructive things introduced in our society. It gave people autonomy over their lives. Thus they were free to pursue other priorities and selfish indulgences. Think of the ramifications in our society – especially in future generations. Enough rambling…… Diane

Quote:I don’t think that we can discuss the evils of abortion without considering the countless who were never even conceived in the first place. A leading psychiatrist and family therapist once told me that the Pill was one of the most destructive things introduced in our society. It gave people autonomy over their lives. Thus they were free to pursue other priorities and selfish indulgences. Think of the ramifications in our society – especially in future generations. Amen to this... ;-)

Hmmmm so is "the pill" wrong to use? No matter if you are married? What about condoms and everything of that nature? (ofcourse I'm talking about in marriage)

Dorcas!!!The lord spoke to me, in Isaiah and he said...For the Lord is a God of justice; Blessed are all those who wait for him.For the people shall dwell in Zion in Jerusalem; YOU SHALL WEEP NO MORE, yes that is what he said.I SHALL WEEP NO MORE. He will be very gracious to you (to me) at the sound of your cry; When He hears it, he will answer you. And though the Lord gives you The bread of adversity and the water of affliction, it's ok...Yet your teachers will not be moved into a corner anymore. Your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, This is the way, walk in it. ...and there is more, but my point is "It's you"You are go take me under your wing, and it is you who will help me to give birth, it's you.It's you Dorcas, it's you. You will help me.

Has anyone read the story of Israel Hougton

PreachParsly asked: ...is "the pill" wrong to use? No matter if you are married? What about condoms and everything of that nature? (of course I'm talking about in marriage)I sure can't answer this with a black and white yes or no. Here's how I see it: Just as most things in this world can be either good or bad, perhaps the issue is not whether the Pill, or any other Birth Control method is good or bad in itself. It is the motive behind the use of these things, as for anything else, that would be the issue with God. For he is concerned about who is master of our lives - him or ourselves. Our use of the things in this world is not necessarily the measure of our faith. Whether we have one child or twelve is not a reflection of our spirituality. However, our hidden cravings to gratify ourselves, control our lives, and plan a secure, safe, risk-free future in this temporal life may reflect a subtle rebellion to God and an inability to trust in him. In this case Birth Control may merely enable us to live without God.I introduced the issue of birth control on this thread to point out that the same motive behind those who abort life may be applicable to those who prevent life. "You therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourselves because you who pass judgment do the same things." Romans 1:1Those wee ones - living souls, who were never born alive, are surely wisked into God's eternal presence. Should not our present burden be for the living - all who bear guilt before God - and that includes ourselves - for "all have sinned and fall short...? Let God be the final judge of every soul, and may he reveal his mercy, through Christ's glorious atonement. Does that sound like a reasonable, practical response????? Diane

Diane,I see where you are coming from. Thank you.Josh

Many Christians do not appreciate or understand how the pill works as a contraceptive.The pill basically has three effects. The first effect is the thickening of the mucous plug at the opening of the cervix, the mouth of the womb. This provides something of a natural barrier to the passage of sperm into the womb. This is a contraceptive function, as it prevents the union of sperm and egg.There’s a second effect, which usually is the primary effect, and that is the suppression of ovulation. A projected ovulation is simply blocked and does not occur. The sperm may well be deposited in her female tract; they may swim through her tubes and out to the ovaries, but if there is no egg to fertilize, then we have a primary effect, an action technically called “temporary sterilization”—or, in more common, but less accurate language, “contraception.”There is a third effect of the contraceptive pill. This effect is on the lining of the womb. What this does is to harden the lining of the womb—we say, make it hostile to implantation to this one-week-old embryo. If this is the function that prevents “pregnancy” that month, then it is implantation that is prevented. And this implantation, if prevented, kills a tiny one-week-old baby. So the widely used contraceptive pills have three functions, any one of which is said to “prevent” pregnancy. Only two of the functions, however, actually do prevent pregnancy: (1) the barrier mechanism of the mucous plug at the cervix, (2) the suppression of ovulation. The third function, however, does not really prevent pregnancy, but rather produces a micro-abortion at one week of life(See here for more details)I don't think the pill is a serious option for anyone who is pro-life.Dan/\\/\\/\\

dorcas wrote:I trust no-one would suggest the failure of fertilised ova to embed, should be a matter of blame against women.I don't think anyone would suggest that the failure of a new life (fertilized egg) to attach to his or her mother would be a matter of blame against the mother. I do however suspect that some would recognize a difference between this new life "failing to embed" and the mother taking an active role in restricting the possibility in the same situation.In the one case failure to "embed" is an "act of God" and the mother is in no way responsible for it -- but in the other, it is an act of intervention on the part of the mother that may result in the death of one or more of her children.I suspect that there are many women who are on the pill right now, who if they understood that there was even the slightest possibility that they might give life to a child, but fail to nourish that same child so that it dies in their womb - they might not be using this form of "birth control"Dan/\\/\\/\\

My point is only to highlight the grand difference between preventing an egg from being fertilized -- and preventing a fertilized egg from continuing to live.I believe that not every woman on the pill is aware of how it works.Dan/\\/\\/\\

To sum up, if it is ok in nature for a fertilised ovum not to embed, what is wrong with assisting this process?This seems rather odd logic to a non medical mind. If your question is logical, so is this one.If it is ok in nature for someone to die, what is wrong with assisting this process? What is wrong with it, is that it is forbidden by God to take another's life or your own. Other than that there is nothing 'wrong' with it.

If it is ok in nature for someone to die, what is wrong with assisting this process?It would seem that this discussion is leading us to ask the all-important question: Who is in charge of our lives? Is it God? Is it fate? Are we trying to play God? Even the question of the original post, "Would YOU consider.... ?" must not lure us away from our need to lean on God and his wisdom. Life is filled with situations and dilemas that cannot be mastered by our own understanding. Keith Green, in one of his messages, tells about his wife receiving an abortion when death would have been a certain outcome. I forget which message that was. I'll insert it if I find it. Another thought: I believe that the original post is not suggesting that we aught to abandon our lives to chance - assuming that "everything will work out" because it did for someone else. God does indeed do mighty things in amazing, "illogical" ways, through sinner and saint alike. Who can ever second-guess God? Ultimately, we must fall on our faces before him, admitting our total inability to fully understand his ways. PS Now, I'm wondering if I'm being a "Pill" in this discussion. Diane

dorcas wrote:My points are that many a fertilised egg does not implant, depending on the receptivity of the womb at the time (of the month) it happens to be passing through. And, that all intrauterine devices work by interfering with any embedding which should threaten to take place.This leaves unreliable barrier methods (or surgery). So, if contraception is 'wrong' because it ensures that embedding cannot take place, then abstinence is your next stop, is it not? As this is what is being recommended for unmarried people who are tempted to risk a pregnancy, why should the method change after marriage?To sum up, if it is ok in nature for a fertilised ovum not to embed, what is wrong with assisting this process?Dorcas,I think Ron really hit the nail on the head, but I would like to respond also.The issue for me is not "which form of birth control should a Christian use" but rather to point out that "birth control" falls into two categories, (1) the prevention of life and (2)the destruction of life.In the case of the pill, many women imagine that they are merely preventing life from starting as opposed to causing the death of their own child.If a person dies "naturally" during the first week that God has given him or her life, that is one thing. No one would hold the mother accountable for such a death.There are some however, and I count myself in this group, who consider it another thing for a mother to premeditate the death of her children by ensuring that they die in their first week of life. It isn't a question of which method one uses to ensure their children die, rather the question is, is it right to ensure (or perhaps simply augment the possibility) that your children die in the first week or so of life.Dan/\\/\\/\\

dorcas writesI know that the cells of a fertilised ovum are alive, in the same way as blood cells, or any other part of a body which can be separated from its usual order, (hand, eye, etc) when therefore, they would die; but at what point is the potential of the unborn baby to become a living soul, realised? When does the clay vessel, receive its own spirit?Surely this is the crux of the matter. Cells are alive but not in the same way that a fertilised ovum is alive. Cells belong to a body and have received their life by virtue of being part of the body, but a fertilised ovum is not merely part of the body in the same way that a cell is. At what point, physically does it have its own genetic identity? I ask this as an enquirer.Biblically I do believe that for honesty's sake we have to recognise that the words for 'conception' and 'begetting' are not as precise or distinguishable in the way that we would distinguish them in normal language. eg the word 'conceived' in Matt 1:20 is gennao which is translated in a number of ways and is the root of our word 'generate'. I step, with awe, into this aspect of revelation. Mary's foetus was 'generated' by the Holy Spirit. I presume that with the absence of any contribution from another human being the genetic identity would be identical to Mary's??? By the time that Mary arrived at the home of Elisabeth she was already 'the mother of my Lord' to Elisabeth (Luke 1:43) It would seem from this that 'conception' (as we now use the word) gives us our definition for 'mother' rather than child birth?

As I understand the 'pill' and how it works, depending on its strength, it may not prevent conception but prevent its implantation in the uterus. (Is there a nurse or doctor here that can give a better explanation?) This is why pill use is frowned on by many informed Christians. ginnyrose

Dorcas, to answer your question: as a Christian we are called to be healers. If a person is suffering ill health because of a botched AB, I believe we should render all the aid within my power to do so to this woman. Seems to me this is what Jesus would do. Jesus would render physical aid as well as address the spiritual needs of this individual. What do you think?ginnyrose

"when is murder not murder?"Excellent point. I will try to remember this. Having said this there will still be those who do justify AB, even after telling you it is murder. Sir, you cannot believe the deception people will enter into to justify it. Hatred for self, the child, blinds so many females.ginnyrose

In dealing with guilt and the resulting shame: how about looking at this issue from God's perspective? Is guilt and shame not a blessing? Indicating one has a sense of the holiness of God? I have talked to many who do NOT experience it all!! It is nigh impossible to impress upon their minds the seriousness of their sins. When we recognize our sin[s] we feel very dirty, defiled. So we need to come to the cross for cleansing. But in the case of illegitimate births, one will need to access the mercy and grace of God more often. It is as you pointed out: sexual sins have grave consequences. I care not one twit how/when a person was conceived. A person has absolutely no control over the circumstances of his/her own conception. BUT you do of your own behaviors. This is what a Christian should focus on. As we meet with persons who were conceived 'in sin' one needs to make this point clear. And if they are distressed about this, it might be helpful to remind them that this is the devil working to destroy them. The enemy will use whatever to destroy. In those of us who were of legitimate conception have other problems to deal with. The devil will not leave anyone alone. This is why we all need the abiding presense of the Holy Spirit to deal with the consequences of sin, either ours or another person's. Just my opinion,ginnyrose