Why Do you call me Lord...

"But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.
Luke 6:46-48

I have kind of a strange question:

What if someone does what Jesus says but does not call him Lord? Or, better, exclusively Lord?

Good question brother.

God told Paul that he had many people in Corinth (Acts 18:10) before the Word was preached there or they even knew the name of Christ, knowing only the names of the Roman deities.

Interesting, isnt it?

This question popped in my mind because my wife and I watched "Gandhi” again the other night (excellent and highly recommended).

He was officially Hindu I suppose but he knew Christianity and the teachings of Jesus far better than most Christians and more importantly lived like Jesus told us to live.

Of course we can’t know his true heart and motivations but he certainly believed Jesus was real and honored his teachings.

"Gandhi was dangerously politically incompetent. He ­advised the Jews to adopt nonviolence toward the Nazis, and wrote a letter to ­Hitler starting with the words "My friend”. He also advised the Jews of Palestine to "rely on the goodwill of the Arabs”. Fortunately for their existence, the Jews ignored him.
As well as calling Hitler his friend, Gandhi and Mussolini got on well when they met in December 1931. Gandhi praised Mussolini’s "service to the poor, his opposition to super-urbanization, his efforts to bring about a coordination between Capital and ­Labour, his passionate love for his people.”
Gandhi was outstandingly racist, describing "the raw Kaffir” as someone "whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a number of cattle to buy a wife, and then pass his life in indolence and ­nakedness,” and saying of white Afrikaaners, "We believe as much in the purity of races as we think they do.”
His views on nakedness and sexual chastity were also belied by his depraved behavior: when he was in his 70s he encouraged his ­17-year-old great-niece, Manu, to be naked during her "nightly cuddles” with him.

From https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2011/03/gandhi-saint-or-sinner/

Gandhi was just an example.

My question is broader than the example.

"And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness." 1 John 5:19

"And this is eternal life, that they may know thee the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Romans 10:14

Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.

Notice that Jesus said "whoever comes to me, and hears my sayings, and does them". He is talking about someone who has heard the gospel.

Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John -Acts 18:24-25

And again God told Paul that he had many people in Corinth even though the gospel had not yet been preached there. Those who seek after truth with their whole heart will find Christ, for He is truth.

Nigel I am not disputing about the gospel- but Jesus preached Althea gospel of the Kingdom, which boiled down to basics is "I am the King, now follow me.”

If someone does what Jesus says because they believe what He says, how much doctrine does he need?

I think many Christians today know tons of doctrine but don’t do what Jesus says.

A head full of doctrine without obedience is worse than never knowing one verse of the Bible. For sure there are many people called christian who do not obey Jesus, hence they do not know Him.

My problem is that I see no scriptural evidence for anyone being born again without first hearing the gospel.

God could have been referring to people He was going to save in Corinth in the future.

Todd wrote:

"This question popped in my mind because my wife and I watched "Gandhi” again the other night (excellent and highly recommended).

"He was officially Hindu I suppose but he knew Christianity and the teachings of Jesus far better than most Christians and more importantly lived like Jesus told us to live.

Of course we can’t know his true heart and motivations but he certainly believed Jesus was real and honored his teachings.”

--------------------------

These are some very important and basic sayings of the Lord Jesus:

The Lord Jesus says,

John 3:5-7 ”“
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

2 Cor. 5:17 ”“
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Gal. 6:15 (NIV) ”“
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.

Was Gandhi born again? Was he a new creation in Christ?

The Lord Jesus says,

John 15:4-6 ”“
"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”

John 14:20 ”“
"………I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.”

Was Gandhi in Christ and Christ in Him?

Christ HIMSELF is the Rock.

1 Cor. 10:4 ”“
and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Ps. 18:2 ”“
The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Ps. 18:31 ”“
For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God,

1 Cor. 3:11 ”“
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Was Jesus Christ the one and only foundation in all Gandhi’s life and work?

Like I said Gandhi was just an example- perhaps a poor example.

Maybe he is a GOOD example of someone who "knew Christianity and the teachings of Jesus far better than most Christians and more importantly lived like Jesus told us to live" but the verdict is: "I never knew you"?

In my opinion: there are plenty like Gandhi out there, they can articulate various Christian doctrines and shed some understanding about them, but Gandhi like the rest never knew the grace of God in truth col 1. and bring forth fruit unto God. So, he gets to be thought of as 'knowing the teachings of Jesus better-than some inarticulate Christian...but that Christian who maybe cannot read, cannot expound Christian doctrine is infinitely more knowledgeable than Gandhi or any other pagan who rattle off Christian doctrine but are devoid of the Spirit. If he knew anything of Jesus Christ he would have abandoned Hinduism, repudiated his own wisdom and clung to the word of God.

To so many its a sour thing to hold important pagans in low esteem, the world has approved them but God's word explicitly teaches "If you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins".
It's bad manners, bad decorum, bad Christianity if you believe Gandhi was a pagan moralizer who did nothing to advance the kingdom of God. The difference between Hitler and Gandhi? Simply the way the enemy uses men, some are sweet to the taste some are bitter to all, both of them are equally poisonous and contrary to the truth.

1 John 5:12, "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

A true Christian Has Christ's life within them. I do not see any possibility of a person who does not have Christ living in them pleasing God at all.

In the verse in the OP, Jesus seems pleased with those who do what he says.

There is no such thing as salvation outside of Jesus Christ.

Jesus taught us to keep the commandments of God.

So, atheists, skeptics, blasphemers, drunkards, adulterers, homosexuals who would never claim Christ as their Lord may in fact

feed the poor, care for the sick, be kind to an enemy, cloth the naked, be kind to strangers, love and provide for their families, be married, have children etc etc etc.

Yet, even though they may have done these good deeds are considered by God enemies of God and God's people.

TMK wrote Jesus seems pleased with those who do what he says.

REALLY?

Heb 11:6, "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

No kidding Vern- if someone doesn’t believe in Jesus why would they do what he says?

Check out James 2.

Todd, since you think Ghandi provides a poor example for what you meant to pose in the OP, I'm curious to know what kind of person you ideally had in mind. Is it someone who believes in different gods along with Jesus, who does what Jesus commands?

If so, I think Scripture teaches clearly that that's impossible, because one of Jesus commands is that people repent of idolatry (God's Word is replete with that command in both the Old and New Testament). So if they are unwilling to part with their false gods they most certainly are not doing what Jesus says to do.

James 2:17-18 ”“
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

Can a man who is not abiding in Christ and Christ in him produce any work that is acceptable to God?

John 15:4-5 ”“
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Can a man produce any work acceptable to God that is not done through the Holy Spirit?

1 Cor. 3:6 ”“
………for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Rom. 8:8 ”“
and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Zech. 4:6 ”“
……'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.

Ezek. 36:26-28 ”“
Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

Is it man’s own work or God working in man?

Phil. 2:13 ”“
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Therefore, is it possible for a man to live like Jesus told us to live and yet be rejected by God?

ADD:

Can a man even live as Jesus told us to live if he is apart from Christ and is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

Are not his good works just "filthy rags" to God (Isa. 64:6)?

"But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.
Luke 6:46-48

1 Cor. 12:3 ”“
………and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Rom. 8:9 ”“
But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Rom. 8:11 ”“
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Ezek. 36:26-28 ”“
Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

Zech. 4:6 ”“
……'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.

ADD:
Rom. 8:8 -- and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

But what makes Jesus "Lord?”

Todd, with all due respect brother, any interpretation of any passage of Scripture which contradicts other clear passages cannot stand. We both know that we must consider the whole counsel of God's Word when seeking the true meaning of any Bible passage or verse.

These are a few passages which clearly show God's intolerance of those who worship false gods:

Old Testament:

"You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image””any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."-Exodus 20:3-6

"Thus says the Lord: ‘Behold, I will bring calamity on this place and on its inhabitants””all the words of the book which the king of Judah has read”” 17 because they have forsaken Me and burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands. Therefore My wrath shall be aroused against this place and shall not be quenched.’”-2 Kings 22:16-17

"For they provoked Him to anger with their high places, And moved Him to jealousy with their carved images. 59 When God heard this, He was furious, And greatly abhorred Israel, 60 So that He forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, The tent He had placed among men, 61 And delivered His strength into captivity, And His glory into the enemy’s hand. 62 He also gave His people over to the sword, And was furious with His inheritance. 63 The fire consumed their young men, And their maidens were not given in marriage. 64 Their priests fell by the sword, And their widows made no lamentation."-Psalm 78:58-64

"Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘You have seen all the calamity that I have brought on Jerusalem and on all the cities of Judah; and behold, this day they are a desolation, and no one dwells in them, 3 because of their wickedness which they have committed to provoke Me to anger, in that they went to burn incense and to serve other gods whom they did not know, they nor you nor your fathers. 4 However I have sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, "Oh, do not do this abominable thing that I hate!” 5 But they did not listen or incline their ear to turn from their wickedness, to burn no incense to other gods. 6 So My fury and My anger were poured out and kindled in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; and they are wasted and desolate, as it is this day.’"-Jeremiah 44:2-6

New Testament:

"And in Lystra a certain man without strength in his feet was sitting, a cripple from his mother’s womb, who had never walked. 9 This man heard Paul speaking. Paul, observing him intently and seeing that he had faith to be healed, 10 said with a loud voice, "Stand up straight on your feet!” And he leaped and walked. 11 Now when the people saw what Paul had done, they raised their voices, saying in the Lycaonian language, "The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!” 12 And Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13 Then the priest of Zeus, whose temple was in front of their city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, intending to sacrifice with the multitudes. 14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out 15 and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, 16 who in bygone generations allowed all nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Nevertheless He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good, gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.” 18 And with these sayings they could scarcely restrain the multitudes from sacrificing to them."-Acts 14:18

"Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”-Acts 17:29-31

"the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?"-1 Corinthians 10:20-22

"But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk."-Revelation 9:20

Add: "For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God"-1 Thessalonians 1:9

I am not talking about worshipping false gods. That is a no-brainer.

When Jesus said "why do you call me LORD...” what did He mean- right then when He said those words?

But you asked about not calling Jesus Lord or not "exclusively" calling Him Lord. And you brought up Ghandi as an example, one who worshiped the false gods of Hinduism, who yet seemed to do a lot of good things which Jesus commanded.

Like Ricky Ricardo would say, "Plees splain yurself!"

I can’t ‘splain. I don’t even remember my original point I was trying to make. I shouldn’t have brought up Gandhi.

But it does seem that Jesus put more credence in following his commands than creeds.

In the US someone can say Trump is not their president and they can work against him at every turn but he is still really their president.

Jesus seems to be saying that is not true with Him.

Ahh, I think I get it now, good point.

There are 2 ways to do what Jesus says:

(1) By the Holy Spirit (God working in man)

Rom. 8:14 ”“
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Gal. 5:5 ”“
For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

Gal. 6:8 ”“
………the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Rom. 8:6 ”“
………the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

2 Cor. 3:5 ”“
……our sufficiency is of God;

Col. 1:19 (Young’s Literal Translation) ”“
……… I labour, striving according to his working that is working in me in power.

OR

(2) By flesh (man/”self” working in man)

Gal. 6:8 ”“
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption……

Rom. 8:6 ”“
For the mind set on the flesh is death……

Phil. 3:3 ”“
……put no confidence in the flesh,

THIS IS THE BELIEVER’S RESPONSIBILITY:

Rom. 12:1-2 ”“
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

THIS IS THE ONLY GROUND FOR THIS COMMAND:

Rom. 11:36 ”“
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

GOD’S GLORIOUS WILL:

Eph. 1:9 (Berean Study Bible)”“
And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ

Eph. 3:4 ”“
……the mystery of Christ,

Col. 1:26-28 ”“
……the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ.

Eph. 3:8 ”“
………to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,

Eph. 3:17 ”“
So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith……

Eph. 3:19 ”“
…… that you may be filled up to all the fulness of God.

DOING GOD’S WILL

Heb. 13:20-21 ”“
Now the God of peace …… equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

"We are co-workers with God; that means, not that He does part and we do part, but He does all in us, and we do all through Him. It means that He works in us to will and to do, and that we ”“ though faith in His working, in the power that works in us ”“ works out His will.” ”“ Andrew Murray

"He prepares us in every good thing to do His will, so that the doing of it is really our work, and yet at the same time it is His own working in us. God fits us for the work and then works it through us. And so all is of God!” ”“ Andrew Murray

"The will of God is holy and divine. No one can do it but God Himself. God has given you a renewed will, capable of knowing, desiring and even delighting in His will. But you are not capable of doing it in your own strength. The work of our will is to accept His will as being what He will indeed work in us” ”“ Andrew Murray

"Our great need and duty, once we have accepted our calling to live only to do His will, is to bow before God in continual humility and dependence. We must ask to fully know our utter inability and seek to trust confidently His power to work in us. And with this, we must understand that His power cannot work freely and fully in us, except as He dwells in us. Jesus said, ‘The Father in Me does the works (John 14:10).’ It is ‘through Jesus Christ’ that God works in us what is pleasing in His sight. That is, through Jesus Christ dwelling in the heart, by the power of the Holy Spirit, the almighty God works out His will in us by fitting us to do it. The one necessary thing is, a simple, unceasing, and unlimited faith in the indwelling Jesus.” ”“ Andrew Murray

Jesus was telling people to do what He said before they had the HS.

Todd asked:
"But what makes Jesus ‘Lord?’”

I ask:
"How do we receive the Holy Spirit?”

1 Cor. 12:3 ”“
………and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Rom. 8:9 ”“
But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Todd also said:
"Jesus was telling people to do what He said before they had the HS.”

Pentecost was still a future event when Jesus spoke those words in Luke.

John 7:38-39 ”“
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 16:12-13 --
I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.....

ADD:

After Pentecost, through the Holy Spirit, Paul and the other New Testament writers wrote the rest of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God.

Todd, you ask,

"But what makes Jesus "Lord?”

Todd, i have thoughts on this subject that you brought up,.. I look forward commenting... iif it be the Lords willing,.. .. it’s late, ... very tired,... but hope to in the morning.

””””””””””””
elizabeth

I think it comes down to whether or not one has truly received Jesus as Lord and Savior.

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."-John 1:12-13

There are indeed multitudes who call Jesus Lord and do not do what He commands, and that is a fearful place to be. Many will hear from Him, "Depart from Me, I never knew you."

But Scripture does seem clear in teaching that those who are saved will call Jesus Lord along with doing what He says. In other words, there cannot be a saved person who does not call Jesus Lord.

The word Lord basically means master, ruler, king. All who are saved truly believe in the Lordship of Christ and live accordingly; not perfectly, but there is a radical change in our lives, and our lives continually reflect His Lordship.

John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb. Although he is in the NT, his ministry was before Pentecost. I think there's lots of scriptural evidence that OT saints were born again.

Remember Jesus talking to Nicodemus, telling him he had to be born again? Nicodemus didn't understand, and Jesus said to him "You're a ruler in Israel and you don't know these things?"

Great points.

Jesus Christ is LORD not because we in our 21st century minds have given him permission, approval, validation. Nonsense, Every knee shall bow and acknowledge Jesus is Lord because he is so buy divine right.

Please don't let entitlement thinking to creep into good theology.

We do not make Jesus Lord anymoreso than we make him God because we call him God. This kind of tail-wagging-the-dog mindset is what atheists do, they cannot comprehend or refuse to apprehend the truth that there is power and authority outside of our measly creature selves.
Do not copy their thinking.

When we acknowledge Jesus as Lord, we as true believers are doing so because we have changed our relationship to this Lord. Instead of being an enemy, estranged and rebellious to Jesus as Lord, we come to him as sons and daughters crying abba Father. Our submission does not make him Lord anymoreso than my approval of Trump makes him president...or my disapproval removes his presidency over me. That kind of thinking is pure nonsense.

This is one of the pitfalls of Arminian theology, it gives us some kind of god-complex where we actually think we are capable of annulling Jesus Lordship merely because unbelief has willed it. Again, pure nonsense. Unbelief in Jesus Lordship situates the unbeliever in judgment from Jesus because He is Lord.

This is the very kind of deception Satan instills in the minds of god-haters, they say; "since I don't believe in him and his existence I have successfully eliminated the need to worry about any judgment from him...this is only logical" But their logic will lead them to disaster.

You and I are nothing and less than nothing, the nations are counted as less than nothing in relation to God. Do not puff yourself up.

//Jesus Christ is LORD not because we in our 21st century minds have given him permission, approval, validation. Nonsense,//

Obviously true. But Jesus obviously stressed that his being Lord required certain responses.

Hi Todd: Yep, Jesus gave commands and expected them to be obeyed, this by reason of his Divine nature. Because of that nature, disobedience is sin, rebellion is sin and because of that, from a Throne of Judgment will he judge the nations and he will rule. Our Salvation is the benefit of such a Lordship, we do not have a Salvation with voting privileges, nor does unbelief have veto power.

We do not in any sense have a salvation predicated upon human will. There are myriads of religions out there that have a system based upon the human will cooperating with their gods to bring about some admixture of good and evil.

Christianity is the polar opposite of such paganism. Christianity derives its salvation directly from God's good grace to reveal his Son to them, give then faith and grace from in in-planted word of God and by that bring forth a new creation in Christ.

Everything else is a lie and part of the broad path leading to destruction.

Marvin,

Perhaps your omission was an oversight, but it is a very critical omission. For the "implanted” word must be "received”. The Greek word is δέχομαi, from the root family "to think.” The word only becomes implanted when it is "consciously considered and embraced.”

Furthermore, even before we δέχομαι the implanted word, James used an Aorist, Middle, Imperative to stress what must be removed first. The Aorist Middle is used when the writer wants to focus the attention upon the subject’s role in completing the verbal action.

Men are dynamically involved in conscious consideration and embracing of what God says. This is how the word becomes "implanted.”

Mak

Todd’s subject:

"Why Do you call me Lord...”\t

"But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.”
Luke 6:46-48

(Todd) "I have kind of a strange question:”

"What if someone does what Jesus says but does not call him Lord? Or, better, exclusively Lord? "

(me) I believe it is saying, it matters NOT what we say,... God knows the heart,.. He is Truth,.. He knows truth.
So for us to say / call Him ‘Lord, Lord’, knowing He is not Lord in our hearts and only saying that is where the problem lies.

(Could it be like , having a Jesus, (another jesus?),..but NOT The Word, .. NOT being filled / full of His Spirit,and led by His Spirit?...)

...They do not what I say,.. the doing of The Word,

1Kings 18:21,
"And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him.”
.....
1Kings 18:37,
" Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.”
....
1Kings 18:39,
" And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.”

Now, Who is God ?, ..and Who is The Word?,.. and What is His Name?
.....and what Name has He given us , that are born of our new Father?

God , who is The Word, commanded His Word into the womb of The virgin, Mary, ...(Jesus’ Mother),.. so Jesus’ Father is The Word,... He speaks / spoke only His Father’s Words,... that came. ( His Words , "they are
Spirit,and they are Life”,...The Light (the enlightenment) of Life,...and The Spirit to do so, ),...

His Words that He speaks is God / Lord, .... The Lord God was here from everlasting, The Almighty.

So, great emphasis must be put on what He says,.. what comes out of His mouth, .. His Words, ... led by The Spirit of God.
...
Now we that are born again, have been given, His Name, (ie,..a new Name)...which is called’ The Word of God’

Jesus not only spoke it, He was, and lived, that Name, He was that Name.
So now , do we believe in His Name of Jesus? ...

So now, is the question you asked,
" Why call me Lord, Lord, and do not what I say”

But did we not start out obeying Him ( He was Lord),..when we were first born again?
... at that time He was our Lord?,.. did we, after some time get side- tracked?,..
and did we become lord of our own lives? .. and if we then call Him Lord, Lord, He is really not our Lord?... Is that what Lk.6:46-48 is saying?

I find a interesting read,
Jude 11, and Numbers chapter 16

I am not always good at portraying what I am trying to say,.. The Lord bless you to make it out.

God bless,
””””””””””””♥️
elizabeth

Todd said,
"Jesus obviously stressed that his being Lord required certain responses.”

I agree Todd.

Now I would like to respond to Marvin’s thread,..

Marvin said,
"We do not in any sense have a salvation predicated upon human will. There are myriads of religions out there that have a system based upon the human will cooperating with their gods to bring about some admixture of good and evil.”

My thoughts will be concerning the word ‘salvation’

Heb.3:8-10,
"
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
.......
Heb.3, continuing ....
v.
"
\t
1 ¶ Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 ¶ Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 "Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.”

11 "So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)”

12 ¶ "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called ‘To day’; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.”
.....
(Note: The Word ‘TODAY’,... , today is today, and tomorrow is then ‘today’,
And on and on,... through the Blood of Jesus we were originally ‘saved’,.. salvation,.. and every day , we are not to ‘ harden our hearts’, and not be able to hear His voice, ... in other words, He has come to ‘save us from our sins every day, which began when we first came to Jesus, and was born again of His Spirit,..

as told in Rom.25-26,
"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins "THAT ARE PAST” that are past,” through the forbearance of God;”

26 To declare, I say, "AT THIS TIME” his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."
.....
back to Heb.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;”

15 "While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.”

16 ¶” For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.”

17 "But with whom was he grieved forty years? was if t not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?”

18 "And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?”

19 "So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

I kindly submit this for your consideration,
””””””””-♥️
elizabeth

Lord Lord meaning I recently heard from Zac Poonen. The first time Lord means Jesus is Lord in their Knowledge or mind. They understood how Jesus alone is the way to life in their mind.

Second time calling Jesus Lord means they are also emotionally convinced. They are emotional about their association with Jesus.

But the Lord that Jesus expects is Lord of our hearts. For whom Jesus is king in their hearts not just in mind and emotions. So if we stop with mind and emotions we will be one of those standing outside..

I do not see anywhere in Scripture that some are "made" willing to receive Christ. All throughout God's Word it is clearly implied that God has given all men and women the capacity to choose to either receive or reject Him (so many scriptures clearly imply this; sister Elibeth shared a few of those scriptures in her post, there are myriads more). Those who reject Christ will suffer the consequences of their choice, while those who freely choose to humbly acknowledge their desperate need for Him and receive Him will be blessed. That perspective seems to make the most sense of all of God's Word.

I think some of us would also do well to consider and study church history before and beyond Augustine. There we find that the early church vehemently defended the doctrine of a God-given free will against fatalistic Gnostics who prided themselves in supposedly being superior to others by their supposedly being unconditionally chosen and by their supposed secret knowledge.

Hi Elizabeth:

Thanks for the response, I'd love to respond but there is nothing to respond to.

You see when quoting scripture texts it's pretty useless to do unless you did as Mak did and give clarification and interpretation on the various texts you quoted. In short, I have to respond to Mak's dekomai and it's importance to being born-again. I am forced to look at the greek and see if I errored or if the greek grammatical usage helps me. For that I must take a look.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to respond to you, but you are not anywhere in that post...I can draw a dozen implications but then how do I know such an implication see is equal to your reading of the text?

Take a portion of text and interpret it for me, then show me how that text refutes or brings in to question something I said...then I can respond thoughtfully to your post.

Hi Oracio: A few things.

You may not see where people are 'made' or prepared, but there is sufficient examples and proof of God doing exactly that.

When you view the scriptures from the standpoint "Its all about me" of course all you see is
How I repented, I believe, I chose, I called, I prayed, I asked, I confessed, I sought, I turned, I submitted. So at the end of your reading you come away with "yea my decision was paramount in my salvation"

You said..." it is clearly implied that God has given all men and women the capacity to choose to either receive or reject Him"
No, he has not, and there is not a single text in scripture to validate that assertion.
And, no God does not offer salvation equally to all men. There have been multitudes of millions and millions who have never heard the gospel and died in their sins. Yet that gospel was plentiful in other countries. Their free will did nothing to secure them from an eternal hell. God hasn't changed and the gospel hasn't changed; yet God didn't so much as send a bible to them, or send an evangelist or bring a missionary. No, what was and is fully in God's capacity to do was not done...and is still being done to this very day.

So, not only does man need the gospel he needs God to make sure the gospel arrives...and even then when the gospel arrives no preacher worthy of the name believes "yea, they can believe any time they want". No, they don't, God must call in their hearts, reveal his word to their minds, there must be some kind of conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment.

Without God taking the initial steps to call a man, send the Spirit, reveal his word and convict of truth man's free will is as useless as can be. In fact he's worse than useless because he will not seek God, he turns aside to his own way, his feet are swift to run from God, his hands are lame to be lifted to God.

The mind will and intellect of a sinner has no capability to believe as God requires, it isn't until God steps in to 'make' the man willing in the day of his power does any man use that will to die to self and take up a cross.
As long as you preach cross-less gospel, sure find a church that suits your needs and helps your esteem in the community

Hi Marvin, unfortunately right now I cannot fully reply to your post but hope to do so soon. I will only say that there seems to be some agreement between us based on how I understood your post, as well as some misunderstanding of my views on one or more points.

Man Marvin- if that’s really how you think God is, how can you stand Him?

Marvin,

John said the entire point of the gospel he wrote was that "you may believe." Everywhere in the NT we (being WHOEVER reads the book) is exhorted to believe, trust, walk in such a way. Salvation is available to all, that is the entire point of the gospel message. It was limited to Israel, now its available to ALL. Man has free will, a gift from God. Otherwise God may as well of stuck with just angels, but he doesnt want that...he wants willing sons/daughters via adoption.

Hi Marvin, you wrote:

You may not see where people are 'made' or prepared, but there is sufficient examples and proof of God doing exactly that.

I am familiar with the passages commonly brought up to defend your view as I too once believed as you did for a few years of my Christian walk. I have found that those few seemingly difficult passages are far outweighed by so many other clearer passages which imply that God has given man libertarian free will. And that is one of the problems I see with your view with all due respect. It takes a few seemingly difficult passages and interprets them in a manner which contradicts many other clearer passages, ignoring them and their perspicuity.

When you view the scriptures from the standpoint "Its all about me" of course all you see is
How I repented, I believe, I chose, I called, I prayed, I asked, I confessed, I sought, I turned, I submitted. So at the end of your reading you come away with "yea my decision was paramount in my salvation"

The fact that many of us believe that God has granted free will to man does not mean we view the scriptures from the standpoint of "it’s all about me.” The burden of proof is on you to show that connection. You seem to be assuming that all of us place ourselves before or above God in the salvation process and that that is what I am defending, which is a strawman because I have never argued such a thing.

You said..." it is clearly implied that God has given all men and women the capacity to choose to either receive or reject Him"
No, he has not, and there is not a single text in scripture to validate that assertion.

Here are a few passages which seem pretty clear to me, with brief interpretative comments after each:

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”-Deuteronomy 30:19-20

I don’t know how clearer it can get than that. God set before Israel life and death, blessing and cursing, and He admonished them to choose life (i.e. to choose to follow Him) instead of death and cursing.

"And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”-Joshua 24:15

Once again we see that God, through Joshua, placed a choice before Israel. They could choose to either serve the true and living God or false gods. If that is not what is clearly implied there then what is? God has placed the same basic choice before all mankind. That is why we are held accountable and responsible (able to respond) when it comes to our relationship with God.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!”-Matthew 23:37

We see there that Christ was often willing to save those who had rebelled against Him, but they were not willing, and our Lord lamented over that fact. He was willing but they were not. Is it not clearly implied there that God gave them free will and that they freely chose to reject Christ to their own peril?

"And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.”

Here we see two types of sinners, those who chose to receive Christ and those who chose to reject Him. Notice that those who rejected Christ "rejected the will of God for themselves.” What was the will of God for them? Obviously, it was to save them, was it not? Some humbly received that will or purpose of God for themselves and others rejected it.

"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”-Matthew 11:28-30

That’s just one of myriads of such passages throughout Scripture where we see a clear invitation from God to sinners to come to Him. By implication sinners can choose to come to Him or not. Otherwise it’s not a genuine invitation, is it? Common sense tells us that when someone gives us an invitation, we can either accept or refuse the invitation.

Those are just of few of many more passages that can be pointed out in this respect.

And, no God does not offer salvation equally to all men. There have been multitudes of millions and millions who have never heard the gospel and died in their sins. Yet that gospel was plentiful in other countries. Their free will did nothing to secure them from an eternal hell. God hasn't changed and the gospel hasn't changed; yet God didn't so much as send a bible to them, or send an evangelist or bring a missionary. No, what was and is fully in God's capacity to do was not done...and is still being done to this very day.

You seem to imply that those without a witness concerning Christ do not have enough light to draw them to God. Yet Scripture teaches that God has given enough light to every person so that they are able to respond to Him accordingly. Those without a witness concerning Christ have the light of nature and conscience (the Holy Spirit speaking to them through it) which screams to them that there is an all-powerful Creator to whom they must give an account one day (Ps. 19:1-4; Rom. 1:20; Rom. 2:14-16). I personally lean toward the view that God will send the gospel to those without a witness concerning Christ, if they respond to the light of nature and of their conscience (again, the Holy Spirit speaking to them through it). There have been many such testimonies of those who responded that way to those basic truths of God.

"And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’”-Acts 17:26-28

That passage clearly teaches that God has given all people the opportunity to seek Him and find Him regardless of where they are or were born.

So, not only does man need the gospel he needs God to make sure the gospel arrives...and even then when the gospel arrives no preacher worthy of the name believes "yea, they can believe any time they want". No, they don't, God must call in their hearts, reveal his word to their minds, there must be some kind of conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment.

Without God taking the initial steps to call a man, send the Spirit, reveal his word and convict of truth man's free will is as useless as can be. In fact he's worse than useless because he will not seek God, he turns aside to his own way, his feet are swift to run from God, his hands are lame to be lifted to God.

This is where I think there is some agreement between us. I certainly agree that God must make the first move toward sinners for them to be saved. I agree that there must first be conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment. I suppose the difference between us is that I believe God has brought that upon all people to one degree or another, not just upon certain selected individuals.

The mind will and intellect of a sinner has no capability to believe as God requires, it isn't until God steps in to 'make' the man willing in the day of his power does any man use that will to die to self and take up a cross.

I know you’re referring to Psalm 110:3 which is a Messianic prophecy. Here are a few renditions of that verse from three Bible versions:

KJV "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.”

NKJV "Your people shall be volunteers in the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth.”

ESV "Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.”

I submit that there is no need to interpret that verse the way you and others do who hold to your view. It could easily mean that Christ’s people will freely choose to receive Him as Lord and Savior in the day of His power, in the day that they see His power at work in their lives or among them. There is no need to see it through arbitrary deterministic lenses.

There are many more things I could say but I’ll end here for now.

Hi Marvin, I forgot to reply to this statement of yours:

As long as you preach cross-less gospel, sure find a church that suits your needs and helps your esteem in the community

Marvin ,
I am sorry that you are not following what I am trying to say, and as I said, ..
I am not very good at portraying that ,.. although I know very clear what I am trying to say ,... I am sorry Marvin.

Without going through the Scripture ‘s I gave one by one, I will try to share where I am coming from and what I am trying to say concerning ‘Lord, Lord’

I believe that we are accountable to The Lord’ voice everyday (while it is callled’Today’)and each day is called ‘Today’ ,... after we have been born again,.. came in (bought) by His previous Blood,. . No longer our own,... we are no longer lord of our lives.

That we are initially ‘saved’, and now by listening to His voice,,..(Spiritually minded),... ( continuing Grace, (The Helper),..He saves us from our carnality/ old fleshly way, into His Way, through Truth that leads to Life, ... His Life... (for to be carnally minded is ‘death ‘)...(He has called us to be Spiritually minded)
( The Way , The Truth and The Life),... then when we say, Lord, Lord,...
He is truly Lord in our life.
It is that. ‘inner’ working relationship of The Lord,... ‘to know Him, is eternal Life’

I was just amazed, to think that we / one could ‘be deceived still’, until we stand before The Judge, ..The King, and He would say this to us.
"Why call me Lord, Lord, and do not what I say,....
"Depart from me, ye worker of iniquity,... I never knew you "

But do we live in a people that refuses / hates the words, ‘work, do and labor’?
Jesus said, ‘ My Father works and I work.’
But what was that ‘work’ ?

Hearing, doing, obeying,... ( the faith of Jesus).... hearing The Words of
God, and doing, obeying.

Marvin, you really know how to articulate words,... and I cannot always understand what all you are saying,... sorry.

””””””””””””””♥️
elizabeth

Hi Todd: unless we are believing in two different gods you must deal with the facts of this world

Not everyone has heard or will hear the gospel
Everyone not born of God will be judged by God
Everyone not a recipient of God's grace and mercy through Jesus Christ will die in their sins.
Everyone who is a sinner is every moment subject to the dangers of hell and finally the lake of fire.

God has explicitly said no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them.

Our reality is that sinners are responsible, God is responsible and the Church is responsible. What part of that do you want to annul?

Maybe the question is Todd, how can you stand to live with conceptions of God that are only fitting for the willingly deceived? I have said nothing that is not common knowledge to any Christian in this regard.

Hi Elizabeth: Thanks for the gracious reply. No apologies necessary, I only want to truly engage you rather than guess at what you were intending.

As to your last post, I find your understanding to be precisely the same as mine there is no disagreement.

They that are born of God love God and will do his will, love his people, love his word and love to serve as God directs them. Praise the Lord for a new heart.

Thanks for the compliments though I wonder if articulate and being clear to others is the same thing? In my case probably not.

Hi Oracio: Thanks for the lengthy and thoughtful response.

instead of rattling calvy and armin swords I want to clear the air to remove any misunderstandings.

When it comes to evangelism, I have been blessed and privileged to do so from the outset of my conversion.

In preaching/teaching the gospel I exhort men to believe, I challenge them to put faith in Christ, I rebuke unbelief and sinful skepticism. I put my faith in God who can plant the preached word in their hearts at the hearing of my preaching ( and yours as well). I will not presuppose the bible demands a passivity toward the proclamation of the gospel, I therefore exhort, rebuke, encourage and reason so that my hearers will respond with faith to the message given.

I do not believe for a moment sinners have libertarian free-will, that is a contrivance for pelagians and others who so hate the election of God they must bolster human capability far beyond scripture propositions.
But that point is no debateable with me, what I want you to know is where I place my faith. I place my faith in the word of God and the Spirit of God working through the preaching of the gospel. I do not put it in the 'soil' of the heart of man, for I do not know what soil the word falls upon, nor do I know the intent of their even being at the meeting and hearing the message.

There were those who sat in the front row hoping to be healed or helped by God and to hear the word of God preached, should I put more faith in their hearts than the men who stood in the back with AK 47'S who would have shot me out of the pulpit had I gone "political" during my message? I put my faith in neither heart, nor their will nor their supposed capabilities. I exhort everyone I teach to do as I do and put their faith in the Spirit of God who alone is able to reveal Christ through the preached word.

Finishing up... the witness of nature is no substitute for the gospel and no orthodox theologian/preacher/scholar would ever affirm it. Therefore the heavens may declare the eternal power and godhead, they do not reveal the Savior who came into the world to save sinners and give them a new life by the indwelling of himself.
The heavens declare God's existence and power, the Church declares God's relation to man and man's responses to God.
Confusing these to or combining them would lead to more errors and eventually cultic doctrine and practice.

Lastly, Old testament exhortations to obedience need to be carefully considered. The old covenant believer was not 'born again' as we are and their exhortation was on the level of moral law. We find endless examples of utter failure when the 'human will' and moral law held hands.

What was the cause of the failure? Human will/effort/capability to keep God's law was shown as an utter and complete failure what is the solution? It is God in man and God always intended, God helping man, God empowering man, God motivating and inspiring the man that made all the difference.
This very thing you acknowledge when you admit the Spirit of God must convict of sin righteousness and judgment in order for someone to believe. In short God must act before man can or will act.

Oracio, the recipe you give can be used to create any cult out there, all of them will be hell-bound and live lives independent and estranged from God.

The grace that is offered up to believe is also given so that men might believe. This is explicit in scripture.

Thanks again for sharing your perspective with me.

Marvin have you ever met anyone who said they were not one of the "elect?” There must be millions out there. There must even be some Cals who have reached this conclusion if statistics hold true.

I certainly understand that there are untold millions who have not had a realistic opportunity to know anything about Jesus Christ. I guess the difference in our view might boil down to the fact that I think God is their best hope and advocate and you think God is their worst nightmare

Hi Todd I posted a response earlier, but it didn't seem to make it in.

As to calling myself "elect" its perfectly biblical and should be no more questioned than if I were to call myself "born again". Both of them are the work of God.

Cult who use the term change the definition of Elect and their usage of it is the exact same thing as those unregenerate ones who call themselves 'Christian'. What care do I have for guarding terms against hypocrisy? I have none, neither did the apostles.

We both believe God is humanities best hope and advocate.

But, (If I remember correctly) you lean toward annihilationism where God is their hope of non-existence instead of punishment. Such verbiage is non-existent in scripture but has become normative in certain circles.

I believe God is an unrepentant sinners worst nightmare for a certain

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I am enjoined to fear him who can do more than humans to inflict his punishments and judgments.

Hi Mak: Sorry for the pitiful long wait to respond, I saw it days ago and spaced out on it. I'll give a brief answer here.

In short there is nothing you mentioned that changes the necessity of God's direct involvement before man receives and the word is implanted.
Now if the authors intent is to show our involvement in receiving the word of God, that principle is everwhere mentioned in the new testament. However, it is always a 'response' to God's working beforehand.

Our reception is exactly that, a response to an already 'seeking' God, a response to an already 'calling' God. I could go on, point is Jesus is the author of our faith, not only in its entirety as a complete covenant but our personal faith from the outset of our spiritual birth.

Man is not the initiator in any sense of his salvation.

When we come to understand God is an Elector and a Caller of men, our evangelism is now based upon God's good grace extended to sinners. There is hope in believing that men will be saved. If it were based upon a mans willingness, there would not be any saved.
We are made willing, made receptive, made convicted, made convinced. When we are not 'made' by God, false converts, cults and gurus abound. Because these men and their followers use the word of God to exploit others and find ways to gain power and benefit from God's gracious promises. They are devoid of the spirit but they have all the earmarks of being willing and receptive, being open and being interested in joining the community. There's is a means to their own end.
Without this 'electing' work of God we would be no different from any man-made cult out there.

//We are made willing//

This statement is an oxymoron. You can’t make someone willing (if it is truly a free will). You can make robots, certainly.

You would be better off using a term other than "willing” that is more honest.

Hi Todd: That's where we must differ, people are not willing, they are content to stay as a little god to themselves, if it were as easy as just changing your mind, there would be no need for the Holy Spirit, we would just use a convincing story or a syllogism or whatever.

No, made willing is perfectly biblical, because if God doesnt make us willing who will? As I read it....

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

That pesky God's will keeps sticking its nose into human glorying.

So, no, God's will prevails to save the sinner.

Of course it begs the question why is it so odious that God intervened to save people who would never come to him unless he did something to turn their hearts?

I wonder that Sermonindex.net who seek revival by God's hand would not rather just say "will are born by the will of man, in the manner of man after the approval of man".

There's really no use in praying to a sovereign God when in fact you dont want him to 'intervene' anyway because you need to accuse him of making robots. But alas, he makes no robots, but in fact sets them free to be men and women for the first time in their sinful vain lives.

Hi Marvin,
I don’t really know if I am understanding what you are saying rightfully,...
But concerning the The Lord’ will’ ,.. ‘our will’
Please , may I share ?

We know it is not The Father’s will that anyone perish.
So we ‘should not’ perish, .. but we have a will in this decision.Our will must work to His will.
The Lord comes to us by His Spirit of Grace to draw us unto Him,

He gives us an invitation to ‘know Him’,... an inward / outward working of our will to His will,... our part, we know is submission,.. a working of His Spirit.
To know Him is everlasting Life.
~~~~~~~~~~~~,
Jn.1:
" He came unto his own, ...
(He came and willed them and us to will, our will to Him)

"and his own received him not.” "

(They had a will, a choice, .. we have a will, a choice)

12 "But as many as received him,”

( our will ,... our choice)

"To them gave he power to become the sons of God,”

(His power working His will in us)

" even to them that believe on his name:”

(We are called by His Name,... we are called by The Word of God,, which is His Name,... we believe on /in this Word of God, His Name.).... The Holy Spirit of God.,.. that is calling us out of darkness into His marvelous Light,..
Which is The Word of God that He is showing us).. our will to His will.)

13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

(Coming out of The will of the flesh,.. into the will of Him, that has called us.)

That alone, brings the glory of God, ... it glorifies The God, ... The Spirit of
Jesus that is within us....that is at work in us.

I believe this is truly the ‘knowing Him’, when we come before Him,.. and say "Lord,Lord”.

Is this the way my brothers see it?

””””””””””-♥️
elizabeth

//No, made willing is perfectly biblical, because if God doesnt make us willing who will? As I read it....//

If God is forcing the "willing” (because per your view man would never be willing on his own) then the proper word is not "willing” but rather "responding,” like a dog responds when it is jerked at the end of a leash. If I am dragging the dog along it cannot be said to be willing to heel.

Hi Todd; "made" in the way I am using the word is bent towards what is biblical. You are using 'made' to represent coercion, enslavement, tyranny.

When I say God "Made us willing" I didn't say "God is forcing us to do what he says". I'm not sure if you are trying to malign what I am posting or you have a very skewed understanding of God's 'making' men receptive.

So to clarify for you and others.

God's making men receptive includes these.
He opens our inward understanding to perceive spiritual truth that we had never known before.
He convicts us with this same inward understanding that we have actually sinned, we are actually and truly guilty before God.
He motivates us with faith we had never exercised before to receive what God has said and Jesus person.
He enlightens our minds so that our perception of Jesus is changed from 'data' to a relational dimension; we think of Jesus in a whole new light.

It is God's inworking in our being that turns our 'will' from self-serving to God-serving.
In a very real sense we are liberated to use our will for obedience toward God rather than a 'dragged dog' scenario.

I am describing the work of grace, not law. Grace from God authors these things I said.

The law is Turn or burn, do or die, obey or suffer. The law does not consider faith or the heart, it simply proclaims the prescription and the blessing of taking it...or the results of not taking it.

Lastly, it is not our own will that motivates our inward being to believe, our own will does not manufacture the conviction needed to understand its own situation. The will does not empower itself to surrender to a cross, it cannot die willingly because human will cannot overcome itself.
It must be overcome by God's great grace worked by the Holy Spirit.

So, when I say God makes us willing to respond we do so, not as slaves but as sons and daughters because as you know from Romans 8, we have received the spirit of adoption whereby we cry abba Father.

Elizabeth: Thank you for enlarging upon the John text so we can discuss it together.

As you can see from the text, Jesus came unto his own and his own received him not...Then "but as many as received him"...this is where John explains why the difference between 'received him not' and 'as many as received him'.

The answer lay in that God works in those whom he will have believe. How do we know this? Because the explanation was not an emphasis on "he believed" "He repented", "He confessed", "He prayed."
The emphasis was placed upon the "God who willed." and it was stated in the negative...'not of blood' 'not of flesh', not of mans will' But God (will).

The context of John Chapter one is not an introduction to "how a man might use his will to get saved" Rather, it is "how God acted to get men saved".

From the outset of reading the gospel of John we learn that God is the creator is also God the sender, God the light is the light of all men, God is a sender of grace and truth through his Son. God sent a very unique Son>

God sent a Son to baptize with the Holy Ghost and fire, he sent his Son to gain disciples and train them, He sent his Son to work the miracles of his Father.

Point is, God introduces himself as a relational God, not the God the Pharisees have portrayed him as.
His first gesture in relationship is to work his will in the hearts of those whom he has chosen to be his sheep.
We find all of this out in the following chapters.

Rom. 9:16, "So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.]" amp

Vern: couple of things.

Love abbot and Costello...I can just hear him saying now...
he's huiman...I had to laugh.

Thanks for the proof text.

Luke 10:21,22

At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said,

"I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.” ”” Jesus

Some brethren would have us believe that God picked out some sinners (without regard for any type of choice they would ever make, i.e. seemingly arbitrarily), and simply "passed by” the rest (the majority of lost humanity), leaving them to stay doomed and damned without hope of salvation whatsoever.

Yet in the parable of the good Samaritan the Lord Jesus admonishes us not to ever "pass by” any destitute neighbor. So some would have us believe that God chose to "pass by” the majority of hell-bound sinners, when we are commanded by Him not to ever do that. Doesn’t make sense imo.

If that is indeed the case, how could the gospel of Jesus Christ possibly be good news in any sense for those whom God chose to "pass by?” If that is indeed the case, it’s the worst news they could ever hear, because it only serves to add to their guilt and condemnation after hearing it, being that they cannot choose to receive it but only to reject it.

Yet in Luke 2 the angel announced, "Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people.”

Notice it does not say "good tidings of great joy which will be to all people whom God did not pass by.”

Oracio: When you used the term 'arbitrary', you are characterizing God, not the doctrine and when you call God into question, you are the clay saying to the potter why have you made me this way?

You and I are not commissioned to 'know who is written in the lambs book of life', nor are we commissioned to preach the gospel predicated upon what we think should be offered to sinners.

Are you commissioned by God or is God commissioned by you?

You said" If that is indeed case, it’s the worst news they could ever hear, because it only serves to add to their guilt and condemnation after hearing it, being that they cannot choose to receive it but only to reject it."

As long as you are putting God on trial here, you might also consider the supposed free will of these sinners have again and again rejected it and added guilt to their sinful lives and gone to hell too.
Do you feel better if they go to hell because they rejected God? Does that change the value or the character of the good news we are to preach?

Jesus said Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

What shall we do? Shall we tell God, "unless you offer salvation to everyone I require your gospel is not fit to be preached?"

Jesus said "few there be that find it", if that few consists of rejecters-by-their-will or it consists of the non-elect...both classed fall into the same category "they didn't want God to begin with", they didn't seek God, they did what their sinful hearts wanted.

Are you that sure God is so bad and you are so good?

Think again, in either case, the rejecter class or the non-elect class are in hell and God knew it before they were born, he knew it before he gave them a living soul. God gave life to a person who he knew he would judge and cast into the lake of fire.

How does this help your case?

When we are told to be good to the 'samaritan' is that goodness predicated upon his 'equal opportunity to be saved?" If it is, how to we know that? By claiming that God has no elect, he has no choice and the gospel be implicated if he does have a choice and an elect.

Hi Marvin, I’d like to reply to your posts addressed to me, but I cannot reply all at once in this post, so I’ll reply little by little in different posts. You wrote:

I do not believe for a moment sinners have libertarian free-will, that is a contrivance for pelagians and others who so hate the election of God they must bolster human capability far beyond scripture propositions.

If believing in libertarian free-will (i.e. the ability to choose between options or to choose otherwise) made one a heretical pelagian who hates the election of God, we’d have to assert that all the early church leaders prior to Augustine (most of whom were martyred) were heretical pelagians (namely Clement-died in AD 99, Ignatius-c. 35 to c. 107 AD, Polycarp-AD 65 to 155, Justin Martyr-AD 100 to AD 165, Tertullian-c. 155 to c. 240 AD, Origen-AD 184 to 253, Eusebius- AD 260/265 to 339/340, Methodius-died c. AD 311). Again, they all vehemently defended the doctrine of a God-given free will against Gnostics who denied free will and affirmed fatalism.

Even Augustine himself, when he was first converted from Gnostic Manechaeism, vehemently defended the doctrine of free will against his former fatalistic Manechaeism, but he later changed his position when he debated Pelagius. Could it be that Augustine later allowed his former Gnostic views to influence much of his teaching? Again, all the early church leaders were unanimous in their defense of biblical free will. Even Calvin admits that; which is why he only quoted Augustine when defending his doctrine.

Hi Oracio: In all fairness, if you are equating Gnosticism with Calvinism (by implication) we are not even on the same page.

Also, as a good historian, you might consider that Fatalism in paganism has nothing in common with Predestination by God. Outside of some common notions and verbiage the two never cross paths.

So, if you want to be relevant in the discussion you should just state clearly you regard Calvinism equal to Gnosticism and Predestination as Fatalism. If that's what you believe say it clearly so others can more easily recognize your bias, that way when your error is shown there is no ambiguity in why you should reconsider your position.

Ive read so many of the ancient fathers you named, they are not as friendly to your point of view as you think. But, what you've done is present a straw-man in your post which will confuse many.

Hi Marvin, you wrote:

Finishing up... the witness of nature is no substitute for the gospel and no orthodox theologian/preacher/scholar would ever affirm it.
Therefore the heavens may declare the eternal power and godhead, they do not reveal the Savior who came into the world to save sinners and give them a new life by the indwelling of himself.
The heavens declare God's existence and power, the Church declares God's relation to man and man's responses to God.
Confusing these to or combining them would lead to more errors and eventually cultic doctrine and practice.

I have not stated that the witness of nature is a substitute for the gospel. Maybe you misunderstood what I meant. When I say that the witnesses of nature and conscience (the Holy Spirit convicting by the conscience) are enough to "draw” sinners to God, I mean that it’s enough to "draw them closer” to God than if they ignored those witnesses. If sinners respond positively to those lesser lights/witnesses, God will be faithful to provide more light, namely the light of the gospel of Christ. I believe Acts 17:26-27 (which you have not attempted to interpret after I brought it up and interpreted it) as well as other passages are explicit in this regard.

Hi Marvin, real quick, if I recall correctly here, you first stated that those of us who believe in free will have more in common with heretical pelagianism which has a tendency to create false cults and stems from paganism. You implied that our view is not orthodox in terms of historic, orthodox Christianity. But I can understand that now that I reason about what the early church leaders actually believed and taught (which I can prove easily here via their writings), you don't like it. If you're going to call us unorthodox pelagians be ready for some push back brother, just saying.

Savannah quoted:

anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.” ”” Jesus

And Jesus wills to reveal Himself to everyone. Hallelujah!

//God gave life to a person who he knew he would judge and cast into the lake of fire.//

Gee whiz Marvin.

How is that different than having children in order to murder them?

Well it is different- what you say God does is infinitely worse.

Hi Todd: I see we disagree, yet, you offer no biblical alternative. How does that improve your argument?

I realize from past postings you opt for annihilation and a God who does not have exhaustive foreknowledge...so with that you can have sinners given life, that God doesn't know how it will turn out for them, yet best of all they can hope in annihilation if God does judge them unworthy of the tree of life. So that may work for you, but those of us who read our bibles and interpret them otherwise your option is unsubstantiated and your hope without warrant.

If what you say is true, it should be explicit in scripture. Yet we both know hoping in annihilation and God's supposed ignorance of the future has been rejected over all through the centuries.

I have no biblical reason to speak otherwise.

Hi Oracio: Libertarian free will is
free-will gone malignant. It's not the same as semi-pelagian free-will teaching common among the Pentacostals, Charismatics, Assemblies of God, and pretty much everyone else not reformed.

When you say you believe in Libertarian free-will I must assign the definition belonging to it.

The great thing about Church Fathers is you can get them to validate about anything you want...unless you're completely heretical. Since the Church Fathers vary on some of these issues, I need only chose those who agree with me, such as you've done yourself. But it doesn't end the debate it just creates an ad-hoc argument to wade through.

And like yourself ( its not that I don't like what they say) but I do not agree with all they say.

It has been a constant observation of mine over the years that when I run into libertarian free-will promoters, I run into Pelagian ideas regarding free-will and mans ability to repent and believe based merely upon received data (reading or hearing some sermon). The Holy Spirit just falls in line and answers the will of man when man decides what's best.
Now, for cults this is a great thing. For cults their claim to fame is based upon their 'separateness' from others they get to use the words 'elect' and 'chosen' and 'called' etc in order to validate their superiority over another group.

The Elect of God are not elect because they 'have' some truth others do not, this might be where you think Gnosticism comes into play. The Elect of God are so by God's willing to love them according to his own will and purpose. It is not by reason of their claiming or being or doing anything different than other folks.

Lastly there has been a misunderstanding, I do not relegate those who hold to free-will as 'unsaved' or some other judgment. We are not save by reason of adopting Calvin or Armin, we are saved by God's great mercy and our knowledge is to be that of God, not some teacher of God.

Thanks for the responses even though we disagree with one another.

Oracio you said...

I have not stated that the witness of nature is a substitute for the gospel. Maybe you misunderstood what I meant. When I say that the witnesses of nature and conscience (the Holy Spirit convicting by the conscience) are enough to "draw” sinners to God, I mean that it’s enough to "draw them closer” to God than if they ignored those witnesses. If sinners respond positively to those lesser lights/witnesses, God will be faithful to provide more light, namely the light of the gospel of Christ. I believe Acts 17:26-27 (which you have not attempted to interpret after I brought it up and interpreted it) as will as other passages are explicit in this regard.

I think this is a fair and biblical way of expressing God's usage of nature. If I ignored the passage it was not to ignore the importance of your stating it...I probably just magoo'd and drove past it.

Marvin I am not saying I have it all figured out because there is some mystery and limitation as to how much we can know about how God operates. But may I submit that if you believe God created beings in order to torture some of them mercilessly in an eternal hell that he made for that very purpose, then you do not have it all figured out either.

Psalm 14:3 (KJVSL) They are all gone aside , they are all together become filthy : there is none that doeth good , no, not one .

Psalm 53:3 (KJVSL) Every one of them is gone back : they are altogether become filthy ; there is none that doeth good , no, not one .

Romans 3:10 (KJVSL) As it is written , There is none righteous , no, not one :

Romans 3:12 (KJVSL) They are all gone out of the way , they are together become unprofitable ; there is none that doeth good , no, not one .

1 Corinthians 6:5 (KJVSL) I speak to your shame . Is it so , that there is not a wise man among you ? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren ?

My will is free and it will always be against God. I am certainly one of the "no not one".

There is only one will that makes my righteousness bent toward God that is God who has made Jesus Christ my will to believe by faith that He is made unto me righteousness and redemption. 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 (KJV) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Praise God His will has overshadowed my will, that I might believe.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Marvin, you wrote:

Lastly, Old testament exhortations to obedience need to be carefully considered.
The old covenant believer was not 'born again' as we are and their exhortation was on the level of moral law. We find endless examples of utter failure when the 'human will' and moral law held hands.

Those OT passages which I shared (Deut. 30:19-20 and Josh. 24:15) are not just "exhortations to obedience” but are salvific in principle. Those exhortations have to do with a choice between serving God and serving sin as a way of life, a choice between genuine repentance toward God and rebellion against Him. Some chose to live a life of humility before God while others chose to worship false gods to their own peril. That same basic choice is carried over into New Testament teaching. Again, it’s a choice between repentance and rebellion as a way of life. OT saints were saved the same way we are today, via repentance and faith in the true God, and it was a choice they made just like we do today, even though they did not have the Spirit in as full a measure as we do now.

Also, you never replied regarding Matthew 23:37 where we see Jesus lamenting over the fact that He often wanted to save those who had perished in their sins through their own willful rebellion against Him.

What was the cause of the failure? Human will/effort/capability to keep God's law was shown as an utter and complete failure what is the solution? It is God in man and God always intended, God helping man, God empowering man, God motivating and inspiring the man that made all the difference. This very thing you acknowledge when you admit the Spirit of God must convict of sin righteousness and judgment in order for someone to believe. In short God must act before man can or will act.

Again, I agree that God must take the first step toward man. And He has done that via His "natural revelation,” via the Holy Spirit convicting man of his sin, via the giving of His Word, and via the sending of His Son to be the Savior of the world (not just of some sinners for no apparent reason). I agree that God must help, empower, motivate and inspire man.

The difference between us is that I believe man can either choose to receive all that help which God offers, or he can choose to reject it to his own peril. You believe God must force Himself upon sinners for them to respond positively to His offer of help lest man be given too much glory or credit for his salvation. But just because one chooses to receive help or salvation from God it doesn’t mean one helps or saves himself, which is something that those from your camp refuse to acknowledge.

Oracio, the recipe you give can be used to create any cult out there, all of them will be hell-bound and live lives independent and estranged from God.

That’s a pretty strong statement. Again, by that line of reasoning Christianity prior to Augustine provided that kind of recipe, which doesn’t make sense imo.

Old Testament believers were born again.

Remember when Jesus talked with Nicodemus about being born again? Nicodemus couldn't understand what Jesus was talking about, and Jesus asked him "Art thou a master in Israel, and knowest thou not these things?" Nicodemus knew what the Torah and the prophets had written, but evidently missed the entire point; knowing God personally IS being born again.

John the Baptist was under the Old Covenant but he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Hi Marvin, you wrote:

Oracio: When you used the term 'arbitrary', you are characterizing God, not the doctrine and when you call God into question, you are the clay saying to the potter why have you made me this way?

By "seemingly arbitrarily” I mean "for no apparent or known reason.” According to your view (unless you hold to double predestination which is worse imo), we see all of humanity lost and doomed to hell without the ability to make any kind of choice to receive God’s offer of salvation due to their total depravity/total inability; and we see God picking out a certain percentage of sinners for salvation for no apparent reason and leaving the rest (the majority) in their lost condition without hope whatsoever. Don’t you see how that could seem like an arbitrary and unloving choice? Again, I don’t see God "passing by” any sinner like that. I see Him both willing and able to save to the uttermost any and all who will respond willingly to His offer of salvation. This is the heart of God which I see explicitly throughout the Scriptures:

"Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’”-Ezekiel 33:11

Hi Nigel, you wrote

Old Testament believers were born again.

Remember when Jesus talked with Nicodemus about being born again? Nicodemus couldn't understand what Jesus was talking about, and Jesus asked him "Art thou a master in Israel, and knowest thou not these things?" Nicodemus knew what the Torah and the prophets had written, but evidently missed the entire point; knowing God personally IS being born again.

John the Baptist was under the Old Covenant but he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

I think that there is a good case to be made for that brother. However, there are certain passages which do seem teach that OT saints had not received the Spirit as we do now prior to Pentecost. This is one such passage:

"37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”-John 7:37-39

I think it's a matter of measure. I believe OT saints did have the Spirit but not as much as we do now. I think that's probably why there was much more failure in OT times in terms overcoming temptation and sin.

Hi Marvin, you wrote:

You and I are not commissioned to 'know who is written in the lambs book of life', nor are we commissioned to preach the gospel predicated upon what we think should be offered to sinners.

Are you commissioned by God or is God commissioned by you?

You said" If that is indeed case, it’s the worst news they could ever hear, because it only serves to add to their guilt and condemnation after hearing it, being that they cannot choose to receive it but only to reject it."

As long as you are putting God on trial here, you might also consider the supposed free will of these sinners have again and again rejected it and added guilt to their sinful lives and gone to hell too.
Do you feel better if they go to hell because they rejected God? Does that change the value or the character of the good news we are to preach?

Jesus said Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

What shall we do? Shall we tell God, "unless you offer salvation to everyone I require your gospel is not fit to be preached?"

Jesus said "few there be that find it", if that few consists of rejecters-by-their-will or it consists of the non-elect...both classed fall into the same category "they didn't want God to begin with", they didn't seek God, they did what their sinful hearts wanted.

Are you that sure God is so bad and you are so good?

Think again, in either case, the rejecter class or the non-elect class are in hell and God knew it before they were born, he knew it before he gave them a living soul. God gave life to a person who he knew he would judge and cast into the lake of fire.

How does this help your case?

When we are told to be good to the 'samaritan' is that goodness predicated upon his 'equal opportunity to be saved?" If it is, how to we know that? By claiming that God has no elect, he has no choice and the gospel be implicated if he does have a choice and an elect.

God can in fact know that certain choices will be made without Himself determining those choices beforehand. If I understand you correctly, you’re asking me, "How does it help your case that God would choose to create individuals whom He knew would reject Him and would end up in hell?” Well, that’s a tough question I’ll admit. But I believe your view is tougher to defend both biblically and philosophically in terms of your view of God’s character and intentions.

On your view, God creates certain individuals (reprobates) who are totally unable to respond positively to His offer of salvation and who will never respond positively to it because they were never chosen for salvation for no apparent reason. Imo that view makes those who reject Christ seem more like victims of unfortunate circumstances who are to be pitied. On the other hand, if sinners do indeed have a choice in the matter, in their willful trampling of the Son of God they are truly evil in every sense of the word; they could have chosen otherwise but willfully refused to repent when given the opportunity.

Re: Why do you call me Lord ?

* now considering the Strongs definition, and the position He holds since He is our ***Lord***

Strong's Definitions: κύριος kýrios, koo'-ree-os; from κῦρος kÅ·ros (supremacy); SUPREME IN AUTHORITY, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):””God, Lord, master, Sir.

Lk6:42-48,
"But why do you call Me ***’Lord, Lord,’***and not do the things which I say? Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.

Note:we have a part or rather a choice in this.
"Whosoever comes to Me, and hears my sayings, and does them,...”
( ^^*faith***cometh by hearing, and hearing by The Word of God)

Mt.7:21-24,
"¶ Not every one that saith unto me, ***Lord, Lord,****shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

22 "Many will say to me in that day, ***Lord, Lord,*** have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?”

23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

24 "¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:”

It would seem that I have a choice as to what kind of house to build.
This house that I allow The Lord to build in me to house The Holy Spirit.
Built upon this **Rock,..the foundation.,... then He guides in the building of the house....led by His Spirit.

*The Rock: The Word of God, that was in Christ Jesus
(That is my plumb line) when I have Truth, all His Words flow together.
....I must have eyes to see, ears to hear

Concerning the calling Him, ^^^Lord,Lord,*** on judgement day,and His response be to me....
*Deception:,..
Will I be deceived on that day, and reap the above, or will He open His arms wide unto me and say, to come in you good and faithful
servant ?

It is not the ** will ** of The Father that any perish ,.. He would have us all come to the knowledge of the truth,...
to repent,.... to turn around,.. a choice for me to make,... and it comes from the "power to become” that He gives to me.

””””””””””-♥️
elizabeth

Hi Marvin, you wrote:

Hi Oracio: Libertarian free will is free-will gone malignant. It's not the same as semi-pelagian free-will teaching common among the Pentacostals, Charismatics, Assemblies of God, and pretty much everyone else not reformed.

When you say you believe in Libertarian free-will I must assign the definition belonging to it.

A couple things here. Firstly, by libertarian free will we simply mean the ability to choose whether to receive or reject the gospel; the ability to make such a choice inherently without there needing to be any kind of change in the will’s constitution. In other words, we do not believe that man lost this ability to choose this way through the fall of Adam. Both Calvinists and Arminians believe the will must be "freed up” after one is born, for one to be able to choose to repent and believe the gospel. "Baptist Traditionalism” on the other hand (which I agree with in this regard) disagrees with both Cal and Arm in this regard. Many Southern Baptist churches (I’m not part of one btw) believe and teach this view of free will, again, a view which doesn’t line up with either Calvinism or Arminianism.

Secondly, I think you may want to rethink calling Arminianism "semi-pelagianism” if you don’t want them to call your view "semi-gnosticism.” I think many find it offensive.

Hi Marvin, you wrote:

It has been a constant observation of mine over the years that when I run into libertarian free-will promoters, I run into Pelagian ideas regarding free-will and mans ability to repent and believe based merely upon received data (reading or hearing some sermon). The Holy Spirit just falls in line and answers the will of man when man decides what's best.

Well you can count on that view not being part of what I am trying to communicate here, as I fully affirm the Holy Spirit’s role in convicting and drawing sinners. However, I will say that in my run-ins with those from your camp through the years, it does seem that the power of God’s living Word has often been downplayed. I hope that’s not the case with you. I affirm that both the Word of God and the Holy Spirit must work in harmony to draw sinners to repentance and faith in Christ.

Again, the difference between us is that I believe man can choose to resist the Holy Spirit’s inner work of conviction and drawing (see Acts 7:51), whereas you believe that that work of the Spirit cannot be resisted; you’ve equated the Spirit’s work of conviction and drawing with conviction and drawing unto salvation necessarily, which I don’t see taught in Scripture.

Hi Nigel: For those very texts I have doubts about my 'non-born again position', but what I cannot seem to find is the 'experience' or the drastic change from pagan to believer or from unrepentant to repentant that explicitly declares a 'born again' occurrence has happened. Under the old covenant, the experience was labeled a 'return to the Law' and a 'keeping of God's commands'. Is this synonymous with Born again? I don't know for certain.

I concede I may be dead wrong on this so I'll happily entertain dissenting opinions with scripture proofs.

Now, philosophically it makes sense the Believer in the Old Covenant would be born of God because he is God's elect and the Spirit of God would dwell inside of him/her.
But there are other texts that seem to negate the 'born again' condition of a old covenant believer because the new testament treats even the believing Jews as 'non-born-agains' until they have believed upon Jesus.

thanks for the check on that.

Hi Marvin, you wrote:

The Elect of God are so by God's willing to love them according to his own will and purpose. It is not by reason of their claiming or being or doing anything different than other folks.

Let’s say I knew my wife didn’t love me and that she wanted to leave me for another man. And let’s say I knew of some drug or potion that could make her love me. And let’s say I slipped that item in her drink, causing her to choose to love me. How would that be true love? Neither on my part or her part would it be true love. Yet this is essentially how those from your camp define and view God’s love for us and our love for Him.

Again, without a reciprocal choice, love is rendered meaningless. As I see taught in Scripture, God designed for us to respond willingly, not by force, to His love for us, which makes our relationship with Him all the more meaningful. God first loves us and offers us salvation and we in turn respond back to His amazing love and offer. That’s true love my friend.

Lastly there has been a misunderstanding, I do not relegate those who hold to free-will as 'unsaved' or some other judgment. We are not save by reason of adopting Calvin or Armin, we are saved by God's great mercy and our knowledge is to be that of God, not some teacher of God.

Oracio you said...

I have not stated that the witness of nature is a substitute for the gospel. Maybe you misunderstood what I meant. When I say that the witnesses of nature and conscience (the Holy Spirit convicting by the conscience) are enough to "draw” sinners to God, I mean that it’s enough to "draw them closer” to God than if they ignored those witnesses. If sinners respond positively to those lesser lights/witnesses, God will be faithful to provide more light, namely the light of the gospel of Christ. I believe Acts 17:26-27 (which you have not attempted to interpret after I brought it up and interpreted it) as will as other passages are explicit in this regard.

I think this is a fair and biblical way of expressing God's usage of nature. If I ignored the passage it was not to ignore the importance of your stating it...I probably just magoo'd and drove past it.

Hi Oracio: Lots of good responses with really good clarifications.

1. Glad to hear you don't embrace libertarian free-will.
2. Glad we agree on some things.
3. Glad you take a stand on what you believe, it's much tougher trying to respond to someone who's convictions are equal to nailing jello to the wall.

A few things.

1. When you speak of God's determination in the salvation of men as 'arbitrary', that is strictly an uninformed opinion, there is nothing I can do with that except file it under "what Oracio thinks". God's decisions have never been characterized in scripture as 'arbitrary', but arminians in their arguments against Calvinism make this characterization of God's choosing, it does nothing to help their argument because there is no biblical basis for it.
2. You may not 'see' how the love of God can be true for those who respond by reason of God's election, but untold million have seen. Their testimony as mine is God's working in me while I was an enemy. My love for him follows as Jesus stated
john 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Then he says this...
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

As read the biblical account it was Jesus that initiated the call to his disciples. It was Jesus who chose them, It was Jesus who loved them.

Their reciprocation was only after the work of God in their hearts...and even then it was not sufficient until they were filled with the Holy Ghost.

Jesus died for us while we were enemies not friends, He chose us while we were estranged and alienated in our hearts and minds, so no, your hallmark movie boy-girl analogy really doesn't fit what transpired to bring about the love of God in our hearts.

Now if you would have said "Well, his beloved girlfriend killed him and hated him without a cause, then had him crucified and it was not until God raised the man back to life so he could send his Spirit forth to open his girlfriends eyes to see what kind of man he was and what kind of love he had for her while she was yet plotting his death". That's not hallmark and that's not reciprocation as you like to put it, but that's what transpired between God and man.

This is not about two beings who get together by way of wedding proposal, we are made new creations, we are given a new heart, we are given his Spirit and because of that, we reciprocate the love of God. Yet, we reciprocate not until that salvation has been worked in the heart of men.

There is another silly characterization of God's election that declares God to be forcing, coercion, dragging the dog etc. Well, all I can say is ask the multitude of reformed and they will tell you, they weren't dragged, coerced or forced into anything...and that their decision to believe was not because of something intrinsic to their mind or will that put them into a place to believe, it was God' working in them.
You may ask the multitude of Arminians the same and their answers will be the same, they came by way of God's working in their hearts. So, when depicting the doctrine of election as 'coercion' there really isn't any examples.
But, there is a hypothetical that seems to be taken as good as gold and which has no validity to anyone in their actual Christian testimony.

Lastly as to semi-pelagianism, the arminians have been fine with it for centuries, no theologians call the reformed semi-Gnostics...they know better than that.
Semi-pelagianism is simply a theological descriptor, it's not meant as a slur. Semi-Gnosticism would be, since it would be a modification on Gnosticism which reformed theology is not and never has been.

Hi Marvin, I appreciate the encouragement and clarification on your part as well. I hope that our correspondence here may be beneficial to those reading it who may be struggling with these issues; I hope they may be helped in making informed, biblical choices on what theological positions to take or agree with.

Thanks Oracio for the postings, I appreciate discussion and I even more appreciate it from knowledgeable brother/sisters like yourself.

Thanks again Marvin. I have close friends/brothers in Christ whom are Calvinistic with whom I do street evangelism, so there are no hard feelings at all on my part; but imo there's nothing wrong with a little "friendly, fiery" discussion from time to time on "debatable" topics like this.

Marvin...you say "here is another silly characterization of God's election that declares God to be forcing, coercion, dragging the dog etc. Well, all I can say is ask the multitude of reformed and they will tell you, they weren't dragged, coerced or forced into anything...and that their decision to believe was not because of something intrinsic to their mind or will that put them into a place to believe, it was God' working in them.
You may ask the multitude of Arminians the same and their answers will be the same, they came by way of God's working in their hearts. So, when depicting the doctrine of election as 'coercion' there really isn't any examples.
But, there is a hypothetical that seems to be taken as good as gold and which has no validity to anyone in their actual Christian testimony."

I agree. Consider this.

In Him was life, and the life was the light of men

AND

"That was the true Light which gives light to EVERY man coming into the world."

Notice that light=life

All men have this potential, youre just one of the ones who chose to believe. Why do we need to complicate things past that? Why make the distinction when the entire point of the new covenant is salvation to all men through the Spirit and not of the flesh?

Is it hard for you to imagine that a hardened murderer has the same light in him that you do but he has been so oppressed and made so many rash decisions in ignorance and hardened his heart out of fear of the pain in there that he has squashed that light? Laud yourself, I will pity such a man and seek to restore what God planted in that man (for once without the law he was without sin, like a child we must enter the kingdom) and destroy what the devil has planted and what the man himself has hardened because HE DIDNT KNOW ANY BETTER.

This is why Jesus wept!

But yeah keep debating guys, satan trembles.

Hi Tyler, you wrote:

But yeah keep debating guys, satan trembles.

In one sense you're right though even though you meant it sarcastically. Satan does tremble when God's people are set free from certain unhealthy beliefs which hinder their walks with Christ in one form or another.

I do believe that certain beliefs/views regarding God's sovereignty (and there are different shades of it, i.e. hyper, high, low or so-called moderate) do hinder believers' walks in one form or another; just like certain views of man's innate abilities also hinder and cause one to think too highly of one's self.

Hi Tyler:

There are all kinds of believers, some like myself do not consider it the devil's-humor section when brothers debate/argue/discuss points of scripture that are not understood the same.

I agree that a debate can be ineffectual/inert when the debaters live in an academic world alone. I say, take what you believe for a spin, drive it around a little, see if perseverance is true to help you walk in faith for long duration. Take the doctrine of total depravity for a spin, see if there are people who are not sinners by nature, and sinners by choice. The point is, a lived out faith is not a theological abstraction, a mere propositional statement.
For some maybe it's all about the 'win', with me, I could care less, I do care about trying to articulate what I believe...because I see God in it in my own life.

I'm not sure what prompts you to think I negate 'hardened sinnners' as having less opportunity to believe over against 'moral sinners who attend church'. I've never implied such a thing in any of my postings since I've been here.
Truth be told, my longest preaching stints have been in Union Gospel mission, Men's rehab centers, womens rehab centers, the lowest economically among the Filipinos, Mexican and Panamanian peoples. If I put a resume together, it would be sorely lacking in preaching to 'good folks'.

Maybe there is some horrid Calvinist that did what you say, but that guy is not me.

The distinction is made because the scripture makes the distinction. I didn't invent 'Elect" anymoreso than I did 'damned'.