God’s Church Is Sacred In This Earth

If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple. ”“ 1 Corinthians 3:17

There are many things that are considered sacred in this earth. Certain old artefacts, museum pieces are considered irreplaceable and are reverenced as a very special thing. There are certain buildings in our culture that represent special purposes such as court houses, parliament buildings and other government buildings of authority. And such things are important and if someone would harm or ruin these things there are severe consequences. A jewish person would think immediately of Solomon’s temple, something that was considered the holiest site in Israel. Yet above all these sacred things the most sacred thing in the world to the Lord is His Church that he is building. Jesus said he would build His Church (Matthew 16:18) and to this day he is still building this temple. Paul the Apostle shares that the temple is God’s people who are assembled together as the Church. God has a called out people that are holy towards his purposes in the earth and who are doing good, loving the poor, preaching the Good News in the earth. We read the very sober words that warns us that this work of the Church, if someone seeks to destroy or hurt this work, the Lord will defend it. Gamaliel gave the sound counsel that if we oppose Gods work we "find yourselves fighting against God” (Acts 5:39).

Many people in our day do not have a sense of the holy things of God, they do not consider things sacred. Sadly such people oppose God’s work without fear, speak evil of things they do not understand. Jude speaks of such people who "reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings” (Jude 1:8). No one is holy to them and they do not want to submit to authority but feel themselves above all authority. They speak against things that are holy and end up even destroying themselves. God treats his work as a very holy thing, when we oppose his work we set ourselves against God Himself. It seems extreme to say but our passage even says that "God will destroy them.” When someone would neglect the holiness of solomon’s temple and walk into the holiest of all they would be destroyed. Likewise in the days of the prophet Samuel when people who lacked reverence for the sacred, "God struck down some of the inhabitants of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they looked into the ark of the Lord. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the Lord had dealt them” (1 Samuel 6:19). Likewise Ananias and Sapphira spoke with holy Apostles without the fear of the Lord (Acts 5:1-11). God is still at work, although the Church is not perfect it is what God is doing in this earth. May we see what he is doing as holy and have reverence for what is sacred.

from: https://greggordon.home.blog/2018/11/18/gods-church-is-sacred-in-this-earth/

This article is a rehash of Francis Chan's recent sermon. https://youtu.be/UHuue9ZXzmM ...........bro Frank

Danger of plagirism there Greg, is that why you put up Chan's sermon? ............bro Frank

Danger of plagirism there Greg, is that why you put up Chan's sermon? ............bro Frank

I wrote this devotional just about 2 years ago. I am just re-publishing it as its very much the same thing the Lord showed Francis Chan so I thought it would be good to share again. Just an fyi!

Where did you publish it brother, just for clarity sake? Would not like to think you would take another man's thoughts and present them as your own. Just wanted to add that we must be careful in this regard and I do not expect you would do this............bro Frank

brother,

Just to set your heart at ease. Here it is shown published date on May 26, 2015:
https://www.sermoncentral.com/sermons/god-s-church-is-sacred-in-this-earth-greg-gordon-sermon-on-temple-193965

Well bro, you guys definately seem to be playing from the same play book no doubt. Dont forget the advice you got that the application of Chan's video was wrong, from an older brother we both respect...........bro Frank

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (Galatians 5:1 NIV)

There is another word, which just means that which has escaped from slavery and is breathing free air. That is a fine picture, a fine portrait for Overcomers ”“ that which has escaped from slavery and is breathing free air. I dare not stay to interpret that. Some of us, even in our Christian lives and histories, know what it is to escape from slavery. Oh, the old bondage of the Christian system and order, expectation and demand, all the old rota and legality! ”“ to be free of it all! Not only to be raised with Christ, but to have the grave clothes taken off and to be breathing the free air of the spiritually emancipated! That is what this word calls a "remnant,” and that is not something extra to Christianity. It is exactly what you find at the beginning with the Church.

The Lord had cried in the midst of a burdened, tyrannized, religious nation ”“ "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light” (Matt. 11:28-30). What is the old yoke, the old burden, which has harassed and worn these people so that they are weary to death, drawing out His compassionate appeal ”“ "Come unto Me, and I will give you rest”? It is the old yoke and burden of legalistic religion, ‘thou shalt’ and ‘thou shalt not’: ‘you must’ and ‘you must not’ ”“ the whole system built up like that; a great burden.

"They bind heavy burdens,” He said, "and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves will not move them with their finger” (Matt. 23:4). And this word for "remnant” means such as have escaped slavery and are breathing the free air. You find them in the beginning of the book of the Acts. Overcomers are those who go back to the beginning in experience. They do not take up something further which is deeper teaching or fuller light. It is the primal freshness and fullness of Christ that Overcomers represent ”“ unfortunately, in contrast to the general situation.

By T. Austin-Sparks from: Overcomer Testimony ”“ Chapter 2

Anton Bosch, in reply to Greg on another medium (facebook) writes......

"Chan's exegesis is correct, but his application is way off. Pointing out heresy as taught by Bethel, Bickle, Warren et al is not what is defiling the body but it is these men's heresy that is defiling and dividing. Chan should be warning them and should have nothing to do with them instead of defending them and threatening any who would dare to warn against their errors."

The notion that people's life are in danger if they challenge leadership is a well known cultish practice, typically in Charismatic circles, to nullify ant criticism, kindal like "touch not the Lord's anointed." The threat from Chan in his application is that if you were to challenge, say, Mike Bickle in any of his teachings, you would be in danger of being killed by God. We could extend this to folks like Todd Bentley and so on. And in fact, by application, this could have been used to silence Paul when he criticized Peter, publickly. We see a further misapplication in many of those circles, circles such as the prosperity gospels and so on, who use the mis-aplication of well known scriptures to feather their won nests and to silence any challenges to them.................bro Frank

http://www.piratechristian.com/messedupchurch/2018/4/francis-chan-god-might-kill-you-if-you-criticize-church-leaders?format=amp&fbclid=IwAR1PFXaR023OX-ak4XVI1IHjpbn1uCOYGkX8aXeaH8nUEI2tnQA47MNVUJI

I replied:

Frank Mceleny Anton Bosch thanks Anton for sharing. I do believe we are in a place in the western christianity where we feel we have a right for any reason to accuse or speak against a brother in christ who even is in error in some way. This freedom has allowed for much damage and disunity to form. I believe that is Francis's heart. Of course if a leader is in previous errors especially other leaders of the church should speak with them but not via blogging rather in person with fasting and prayer.

Just fyi saints.

"We feel we have a right for any reason to accuse or speak against a brother in christ "

No one has said that or even intimated that, simply a straw man by yourself Greg. Gross error is what we are talking about, examples being of the ones Anton mentioned, the very ones Chan said not to criticize. The good thing is that those baptized in the Holy Spirit have a particular gift from God, the love of the truth. The opposite of that would be men who promote themselves to other men and in fact have a fear of man. Better to offend men than to offend the living God, this is even why we had a reformation, for given your own stance and Chan's, criticizing the Catholic church would have meant death. It did indeed mean death for so many, but not by God, but by foolish deceived men thinking they were doing God a service............Bro Frank

Robert writes ...........

"You would have to excise major portions of Scripture warning the churches of errant and destructive practices and paths to follow the arguments being posited. I think the application of the text is overly and unnecessarily broad."

This of course is true and indeed was Anton's point. Unscrupulous men have used various applications of this down through the ages to assert their authority and to shield themselves from criticism............bro Frank

This of course is true and indeed was Anton's point. Unscrupulous men have used various applications of this down through the ages to assert their authority and to shield themselves from criticism............bro Frank

Unfortunately this is not true as there is first nothing wrong with Church authority and leadership. Submission to leadership in the Church is very important and those who do not want to submit are also those who feel free to say anything they want at anytime against anyone they feel they want to.

Essentially if we are not willing to follow God's pattern of Church then we are a church unto ourselves. That is part of the premise of what Chan is saying also. In another message I quote him speaking on handing over to satan:

"There is this terrifying verse in 1 Timothy where Paul talked about two men who rejected the faith. Paul said that he had handed them over to Satan, by which he meant that he'd put them outside of the church (1:20). Basically, these men were actively opposing the works of God, so rather than pretending everything was fine, Paul removed them from the safety and blessings of the fellowship of believers. He was hoping that the misery of being separated from the church would lead them to repent. Are you catching the weight of this? Paul equated removal from the church with being handed over to Satan! It is crazy to me that we live in a time when people are voluntarily doing this to themselves! No church has placed them outside of the fellowship; instead, they've handed themselves over to Satan!" from: https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/74157-francis-chan-are-you-destroying-the-church

His conclusion is powerful. Those in the ancient Church were excluded as a last resort of discipline, but people in our day in America choose to leave churches on their own because in their own minds they are right and most others wrong.

Correction in the New Testament was done via leaders to leaders not anyone just hurling a stone. It was always done in wisdom and through the proper channels of Church leadership. I wrote a series of articles on this very topic as many use Matthew 18 to declare they can start a blog to a brother who will not reply to their email and then slander that leader in the Church with many accusations and condemnations.

Greg writes..........

"nothing wrong with Church authority and leadership."

Another straw man and a deflection, biblical leadership is a beautiful thing. Greg further writes......

Essentially if we are not willing to follow God's pattern of Church then we are a church unto ourselves."

Now this I agree with, we only have to look at the vast majority of churches and denominations and leaders to see folks who are a church unit themselves, unless you can give examples among them of 1 Cor 14 churches. This is God's pattern............bro Frank

Robert writes .........

" But, what you leave no room for is the prophetic and for the watchman."

And the reams of warning Scriptures about wolves and false prophets and the writer of two thirds of the Scriptures calling many people out, to their faces and by their names. Of course, in all of this we have not spoken about the 800 pound gorilla in the room, what is the Church? Of course the proper question is who is the Church? We know its not buildings and and we know its not denominations, so the whole thing is moot unless we have definition of terms. So, my challenge to Greg and others, define, using only Scripture, the Church and how they should gather, only Scripture mind you.........bro Frank

Brother Anton, from the other thread writes in reply to Greg.............

" Frank is right. This is not "for any reason". These men have been proven, over and over, to be false prophets. And the issue here is not whether we speak out against them but Chan's endorsing men who are proven false prophets and teachers while lambasting the body of Christ for rejecting that which the Scripture calls us to reject.
I do not know what is in Chan's heart, but I must judge what he teaches by his words and his actions. He claims to speak prophetically and "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.” (1 Corinthians 14:29)
If we are to embrace Bill Johnson, Mike Bickle, the Kansas City prophets etc, then we MUST embrace Catholicism, JW's and Mormons as legitimate expressions of The Faith.
What Chan, and his supporters are advocating is not Christian charity, but ecumenism and it is this mixture of holy and profane that all of Scripture warns against.
"Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.” (Revelation 2:20)

And of course bro Anton is totally correct and what Greg and others are advocating for is Ecumenism which, totally ironically, is profaning the sacred and the Holy, the very charge they are leveling at others. So, in the interests of clarity Greg, since bro Anton has corrected your erroneous view, can you say that for instance, Catholicism is not part of the Body of Christ? I know Mike Bickle would not say that, I know the Kansas city prophets would not say that and neither many of the charismatic organizations. What say you?.........bro Frank

Good word bro Allan, here is a quote from George Warnock...............

"In times of spiritual crisis in the Church, when the people of God are being shaken concerning their relationship to established institutions within the Church structure, there is always a tightening of the strings of leadership in an attempt to keep the ecclesiastical systems from falling apart. This seems to be what is happening today, and we are persuaded that this present emphasis on Church leadership and Church structure indicates a certain fear that ecclesiastical hierarchies are being shaken. This fear is well founded, for the time is upon us when judgment must begin "at the House of God" and God always begins with the "ancient men"... the elders, and the leaders, when He begins to judge His Sanctuary. (See Ezekiel 9:6; 1 Peter 4:17). It is the shepherds, not the sheep, that trample down the meadows and foul the waters with their feet. It is the "priests of the LORD" that God calls upon to "weep between the porch and the altar," and their concern is not: "Let the sheep learn to follow me..." but rather, "Spare Thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage a reproach unto the heathen, that the heathen should rule over them..."

The church called Church of the Resurrection just five minutes from my house is the largest Methodist church in the world. It has an estimated 24,000 members. Before the year is out they have announced they will be marrying gay people. The Church of England and the Church of Scotland now support gay marriage. The local Presbyterian church has begun to preach that there is more than one way to heaven. I could go on, but Chan and Greg and others fully support the Methodist church and would not criticize it, given what they have just shared. The truth is the major denominations around the world have fallen away in this gross heretical teaching. Whitfield sent out a circular letter claiming almost all of the clergy of the church of England knew nothing of the new birth. Not only did God not destroy him, he used him mightily. Ravenhill claimed that in his opinion only 7% of professing believers were saved. So, he is condemning 93% of professing believers, under Chan and Greg's thinking, he was in danger of being killed by God. Paul Washer, every saint who has ever criticized Roman Catholics, JW and Mormons, all condemned because of "unity." There can be no unity without truth. Unity for unitie's sake is nothing more than Ecumenicalism and humanism..........bro Frank

Much fear indeed............bro Frank

Excellent answer by Eric Tozzi, he says it much better than me.................bro Frank

I personally don’t think I’d be able to fellowship in an NAR church due to certain doctrines and practices with which I strongly disagree. But I wouldn’t go so far as too call Francis Chan out for preaching at such churches. I would fellowship with Chan himself, being careful not to ascribe to him guilt by association. From being aware of Chan’s beliefs over the years, I know he disagrees with some of the things that are taught there, but I suppose he’s trying to be a good influence there and to be a peace maker, though some see it as complete compromise on Chan’s part.

I know of one sister on Facebook who would spend much of her time trying to expose the NAR, Hillsong and other groups with whom she disagreed; she seemed to have a highly critical spirit; I used to be like that, but I now realize it wasn’t a good place for me to be spiritually; it caused me to be bitter and to have a constant negative outlook.

Having said all that, I do also understand the concern for remaining undefiled by false teachings and practices. There is a time to speak out against false doctrine and false religious authority, and it does seem biblically warranted to do so publicly at times and not just privately.

In some ways, this thread and debate seems to go back to the old "Institutional Church vs House Church” debate (though it’s not exclusively about that). I’ve come to realize it doesn’t matter that much whether we meet in a home or a building. Though I’d personally prefer meeting in homes for the most part, it’s not a hill to die on for me anymore as it was at one time. I say it doesn’t matter "that much” because I do believe certain church settings (such as in mega churches) do hinder authentic body life if one is not proactive in seeking out closer fellowship with other believers.

Much of the time both parties, both those who believe in meeting in buildings (or being part of denominations) and those who don’t, are guilty of putting down and dividing from those they disagree with in this regard.

May we seek unity in the essentials which unite us as Christ’s Body.

Thank you for sharing dear brother.

"I personally don’t think I’d be able to fellowship in an NAR church due to certain doctrines and practices with which I strongly disagree. But I wouldn’t go so far as too call Francis Chan out for preaching at such churches."

No one criticized Chan for preaching there, it was not the fact that he was there, it was the content of what he preached. Anytime one has the opportunity to preach the truth one should, in my opinion, but this was not the truth he preached there, he was in gross error in his application......bro Frank

David writes,

"There is a vast difference between those (if they ever were a part of the church to begin with), and the true church of God today."

What is the true church? If you acknowledge that the Church of the Resurrection is not part of it by virtue of them marrying gay people (prior to this they were merely a Methodist church like any other) then what about Ken Copeland who is a word of faith and Prosperity teacher? What about Bickle and Rick Warren who embrace the Catholic pope as a Christian brother and recognize Catholics as Christians? Where do you stop and who makes the call David?

We must each be led of the Holy Spirit, especially in days where the majority of denominations are compromised and will be compromised further. Do you know how many saints were murdered by the Catholic church for not acknowledging that the so called Eucharist was actually Jesus?

How about the countless number of saints who refused to acknowledge infant baptism, and it cost them their lives? The list goes on but one thing is for certain, everyone of them defied the so called authorities of the day. If Greg and Chan were alive in those days they would be condemning these folks because they were defying "legitimate leadership." It is clear these saints, these millions of martyrs loved the Lord and the truth even more than their lives and therefore were willing to defy false teaching by false teachers and false leaders...........bro Frank

David, I have been more than sassy. Just for clarification, the Church is people, not buildings. As for what is going on around the world, have you traveled around the world David, have you traveled around the states and visited multiple churches of all shades and hues? Or, is it just wishful thinking? The truth , what I would call Christendom, is in a terrible state around the world. Only 3% of folks in Britain now attend gatherings ( the church is saints)The numbers throughout Europe are worse, and of the denominations left in these places, most of the denominations have now fallen to the gay agenda, accepting gay marriage and transgenderism. There is nothing much I can do about folks with rose colored glasses on, I just continue to share whatever the Lord lays on my heart. On this particular subject, many good men have spoken and it is clear Chan was wrong in his embracing of certain men and stating that if they were challenged, the challengers could be killed by God. If that is your stance then we shall have to agree to disagree...........................bro Frank

First of David I think Greg can speak for himself, he surely does not need people who have never met him speaking in his behalf. If you have such a negative view of me David I am not so sure there is any point in continuing this, as it merely distracts from the central question of Chan's remarks, which I think is what we are talking about. To be honest David, I would never share any personal information with you. Just my thoughts..................bro Frank

David writes.......

"Elijah complained because the people had torn down the altars and slain the prophets and God told him he had reserved 7,000 faithful who had not bowed the knee to Baal. If the apostate church is doing what it is today I still believe God has His faithful who have not bowed the knee to Baal. This remnant of faithful needs to recognized also if we recognize the unfaithful congregations. There is a important principle here. Some see a half empty cup as half empty and some see it as half full. I guess I am one who sees it as half full."

Now, something we can agree on David. I have dedicated my ministry to the remnant. My glass is full in the sure knowledge that God has His people in every town and every village in the land. I would give you a link to it, but someone asked me not to, said I had an agenda. I hosted the revival prayer call for a couple of years, but someone removed advertising for it from SI, said I had an agenda. You may even have read a chapter of mine in the Principal's book, but someone removed it because they did not like the thread "Abomination of Denominations." Someone removed Aileen Gilchrist as worship leader at a conference because as she worshiped at the behest of Carter Conlon, the Spirit came down mightily, then of course the Spirit was quenched by stiff neck men who always resist the Holy Spirit. Dont be so sure you know someone David if you have never actually met them or ministered along side them. ..........bro Frank

Frank,

I am sorry to read this, we have talked many times in the past and have tried our best to reconcile differences and acknowledge each other as brothers together though we see things different. A lot of things you mentioned we discussed and from my perspective we cleared it before each other and the Lord. But it seems you still have "ought" against me for these things. I am saddened by this.

Let us let no root of bitterness in us at all. We clearly see things different, if you cannot focus on Christ and godliness and things like this on the site and just want to argue your differences on how Church gathers or on your different view of leadership then I am not sure how wise it is for your continued participation on the forums.

May God grant you peace today and us all as we seek to follow Jesus Christ with brethren of all different types of convictions and practices in the Church.

The problem is Greg that they were public in nature and there was no public repentance on your part, in fact quite the opposite, a doubling down of previously geld positions. letter written that were not true in nature, which I refused to send out as you know, and no repentance to Aileen and so on. What people see in our public lives and their perceptions of us, especially on a forum like this where most I would submit, have never met either of us. Now you might want to cast me as the guy who is trying to tear down the Church, which you have done consistently, but then I have told you my position time and again on leadership privately. You choose not to accept that and present it as something different.

I have no bitterness toward you at all Greg, I just made the mistake if not taking it publicly after confronting you privately. It is one thing for you to repent to me privately about your previous positions on the church fathers and how you acknowledged that you acted vindictively towards me in the examples I gave, it is quite another to repent publicly. I understand you have a persona that you are trying to maintain, but the most important thing for anyone who professes to be in Christ is that what people see is actually who we are. Of all things the Lord had the harshest words for hypocrites. For example, because you were challenged on another forum by older wiser men, and you were rebuked in what you were sharing, rather than humbling yourself you doubled down and made the Chan sermon your featured sermon. This is pure pride and an unwillingness to listen to older wiser saints. I pray that the Lord would humble you in your own sight Greg. It is a tough business to be broken, but if you allow yourself to be broken then you will not be like a wave tossed on the sea, repenting of church fathers and your obsession with them, then going back again to it. I will be praying for your breakthrough, pride and desire for position and the praise of men is a difficult one, but if you humble yourself before God and men, you will have your breakthrough and the Holy Spirit, that you have quenched time and again, will be able to lead your life......bro Frank

Frank,

I obviously have not and are not meeting your requirements of what you have wanted me to do. From ways I have run the conferences in the past, choices I made that you felt grieved the spirit. My belief in the important of the early church and structured church leadership.

It seems to me that unless I believe exactly how you believe I will not meet your level of expectations. I am sorry for that. I have tried in the past to humble myself and find fellowship with you and preserve the bond of unity.

Greg, I think you know that I have no requirement that you or anyone believes exactly as I do. I can say that I have never targeted anyone and taken malicious actions against them. Your continual insistence on the importance of submitting to the established church and its leadership and authority is extremely problematic. I think your own view of yourself is problematic.

You cast anyone who disagrees with the established church as rebellious and an enemy. This Chan sermon is just the perfect example of how you feel I believe. The notion that saints would bow to men like Bickle and others is quite scary, a a couple of other older brothers, good men in the Lord, pointed out to you ( I am not counting me in that number) You choose to not even respond to them. If I am being honest, I believe you attach way too much importance to what other people think about you and to what you think about yourself.

I know that this will come across as two dimentional words and may sound harsh but it is not written in that fashion. I bear no ill will toward you, I do feel a deep sadness. My guess is that we will never agree on these issues. We are interacting because of the thread in Facebook.
Ecumenicalism, what Chan and others are teaching, is not new. It was wrong when it started and it is wrong now. God's people will be united, just as stated in John 17 by Jesus, but there will also arise a great whore church which will be a counterfeit unity. The Body of Christ will be united in Truth in the midst of persecution, and our most likely persecutors will be those in authority from the established church.

Chan already laid some of the groundwork by saying those who reject leaders like Bickle and others are in danger of being killed by God. Greg, you know enough about church history to know that the vast majority of saints were persecuted, tortured and killed by those in established church authority who, in their sickness and blind religiousity believed they were carrying out the will of God against the rebellious ( those who rebelled against their authority) We are not going to convince each other of anything I am sure of that, but consider the warning verse brother Anton gave you very carefully. Just because Bickle and others call certain men prophets ( and most of us know about the Kansas City prophets and the drunkeness and making women strip naked} does not mean that they are.

I added the extra verses that Anton left out, to give it more context. Listen to what happens to those who allow false prophets to exist in their midst, only those who do not hold to that wicked doctrine are spared. I council you not to be part of those who allow the false prophet and encourage others to bow their knees to them as Chan just did..........bro Frank

"Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.” (Revelation 2:20)

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, AS MANY AS HAVE NOT THIS DOCTRINE, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
(Rev 2:21-24)

Greg, I think you know that I have no requirement that you or anyone believes exactly as I do. I can say that I have never targeted anyone and taken malicious actions against them. Your continual insistence on the importance of submitting to the established church and its leadership and authority is extremely problematic. I think your own view of yourself is problematic.

You cast anyone who disagrees with the established church as rebellious and an enemy. This Chan sermon is just the perfect example of how you feel I believe. The notion that saints would bow to men like Bickle and others is quite scary, a a couple of other older brothers, good men in the Lord, pointed out to you ( I am not counting me in that number) You choose to not even respond to them. If I am being honest, I believe you attach way too much importance to what other people think about you and to what you think about yourself.

I know that this will come across as two dimentional words and may sound harsh but it is not written in that fashion. I bear no ill will toward you, I do feel a deep sadness. My guess is that we will never agree on these issues. We are interacting because of the thread in Facebook.
Ecumenicalism, what Chan and others are teaching, is not new. It was wrong when it started and it is wrong now. God's people will be united, just as stated in John 17 by Jesus, but there will also arise a great whore church which will be a counterfeit unity. The Body of Christ will be united in Truth in the midst of persecution, and our most likely persecutors will be those in authority from the established church.

Chan already laid some of the groundwork by saying those who reject leaders like Bickle and others are in danger of being killed by God. Greg, you know enough about church history to know that the vast majority of saints were persecuted, tortured and killed by those in established church authority who, in their sickness and blind religiousity believed they were carrying out the will of God against the rebellious ( those who rebelled against their authority) We are not going to convince each other of anything I am sure of that, but consider the warning verse brother Anton gave you very carefully. Just because Bickle and others call certain men prophets ( and most of us know about the Kansas City prophets and the drunkeness and making women strip naked} does not mean that they are.

I added the extra verses that Anton left out, to give it more context. Listen to what happens to those who allow false prophets to exist in their midst, only those who do not hold to that wicked doctrine are spared. I council you not to be part of those who allow the false prophet and encourage others to bow their knees to them as Chan just did..........bro Frank

"Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.” (Revelation 2:20)

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, AS MANY AS HAVE NOT THIS DOCTRINE, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
(Rev 2:21-24)

Unfortunately Frank you are doing exactly what the article and Francis Chan is speaking about, it is slander. I forgive you and may God open your eyes to see how unprofitable it is for you publicly accusing me or any christian leader you disagree with.

I do not want to give place on SermonIndex for this to be continued.

This thread is locked.