Ive been a Christian for 11 years. I dont know what really to make of tongues. However I "think" Ive spoken it twice or three times in prayers. These were during times of very very high stress - sibling dying and other tinmes, suspect of cancer in myself. I dont know if what I had were tongues or just confusion, though I thanked the Lord for them nevertheless. Ive not really asked for this particular gift, remembering the Lord saying, My love is sufficient for thee. Can anyone enlighten me please?
tongues
there's alot of disagreement on this issue...but here's my take on it:1- always remember to seek the truth first. Jesus is the truth (John 14:6). then, experiences (like tongues, etc) come OUT of the truth. never seek an experience first and truth second. always truth first and experience second.2- i personally DO believe the gifts (like tongues) are still here and available today. therefore, God's spirit can come and feel you and strengthen you during the times you cry out to Him.3- if the words that you heard that came from your mouth were a clear form of another language that you didn't know, then you probably spoke in tongues. if the words were simply la-la-la-la, then that probably wasn't tongues.just my thoughts. continue to seek God during all times of your life!may the lord bless you- dennis
Believe on the word and in the word. The word says that greater things will you do. did Jesus talk in tongues? well the ones who followed did, Jesus was the one who not only used water but also the spirit. It is in use, believe, have faith ask for the filling. we ask others but it is God who fills the believer.
free, I would think that you probably did speak in tongues. It would make sense to me that this particular gift would come forth in your life when you're going through a hard time. Paul told us to earnestly desire spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 14:1), and clearly these gifts are known by experience. Paul also told us that this particular gift edifies the believer. The actual Greek word often translated "edify" in 1 Cor. 14:4 is "Oikodomeo." It literally means "to build a house." Possible translations are "To build a house, tower, town, etc., to build in a spiritual sense, to profit spiritually, the act of building..." It seems clear that speaking in tongues builds up your inner man or perhaps your spirit. It builds up the spiritual part of your being. It strengthens and profits you spiritually. It's a supernatural source of spiritual building and strengthening (I think of it like muscles). No wonder Paul wished that everyone spoke in tongues and it's no wonder that he himself did it more than anyone else. (1 Cor. 14) I encourage you to simply step out in faith and start using this gift regularly. Go with the Spirit and whatever phrases (utterances) you have. It may be only one phrase, one unknown word, but just continue to use it in faith and more will probabaly come. It may seem fake or awkward at times but the Bible doesn't say that you will always feel edified, it simply states it as a fact that you will be edified. Go ahead and start building. It could only do you good.
Thank you all for your edifying responses. I go to one of the few English speaking churches here. Once I told my small group that we need to be born again, everyone looked at me like I was from another planete. I dont like to enter into an arguement on Spiritual matters given the 45 mins that we meet. So, imagine my joy to have found a platform here where my spiritual concerns are received by thoughtful Christians.Concerning tongues, I went over my spiritual journal (which Ive kept for 11 years) and here is what I wrote of the last time I had the tongues -Tears and tongue!! I learned to speak in a new language today. How loving my Father is. I spoke for more than half an hour. During all that time, it was a mixture of the Lord speaking and my own thoughts - all mixed into one. The message is clear. He seems to say "Fear Not". It was truly an unforgetable experience. God is alive and inside me!!In light of what Todd said, I indeed have had that gift even though it has occured only one other time and this has been a while ago now. O God, help my unbelief!! I was busy praying for the Truth but when Truth revealed itself to me I did not recognise Him. Or I did and then doubted.Todd, I dont know what it is to "start using this gift regularly...." Its not that I have much control in this. I dont really "know" the language. Im afraid to get into a situation of self-hypnosis. I believe my spiritual life is strong and healthy but still, there is a longing for more of the Lord that cannot seemed to be filled by the tons of reading and listening that I do. How do you think I should proceed in my spiritual life to stop this restlessness, even if it is restlessness for the Lord. Am I alone in this?Thanks for listening
For an awsomely comprehensive study of the subject and an excellent way to help you discern the truth of God's word, I would recommend the following... A Theology of the Holy Spirit by Frederick D. Bruner [Amazon.com] It is one of the most involved and accurate and intricate studies of each and every scripture reference for all of the 'Miracle" gifts including speaking in tongues I've ever come across.Use the personal study of God's TRUTH to determine for yourself what is HIS truth on this subject...do not rely on the teaching of man, uninterpreted personal experience or the explained expereinces of others.DIVE DEEP and bring up his treasures for your personal ministry!God Bless,FreedbyJC
Welcome to our sanctuary in cyberspace. May I ask where on this planet are you? Just curious. Paul said there are various kinds of "gifts" and various kinds of administrations of these gifts. He also said that the Holy Spirit gives severally as He wills. So it's really not up to us. we can covet gifts, but we cannot demand them or create them.Many say that if you do not "speak in tongues" as the Spirit gives utterance, you have not been baptised in the Holy Spirit. I find this faulty theology because at the conclusion of Pauls instruction about the gifts in 1 Cor 12, he asks a series of questions, all demanding the answer "no". He asks do all prophecy, do all work miracles, do all speak in tongues. Again, the demanded answer is no. Either "tongues" is not the sure evidence, or "all" in this passage are not "Spirit filled and immersed in Him".Secondly, Acts 1:8 says that when the Holy Spirit comes upon us (this is Jesus speaking here), that we will receive power to be His witnesses. This power is the ability to die for our faith and testimony. I have found this to be true without exception. I've seen some very intoverted people become springs of living water when filled with the Holy Spirit. Praise God. Gifts of the Spirit are not trophies but tools, to be used in ministry, as I understand it. I was in a technical trade for many years. I carried with me a small bag of tools. When I needed a screwdriver, I'd go to my bag and find one. It would do me no good to pull out a wrench or pliers. I had to find a screw driver. I needed the right tool for the task before me. As we live and move and have our being in Him, God will lead us into many kinds of ministry situations. He will impart His power to us to move upon a heart in such a way as to perfectly match the supply with the need. I call upon the Holy Spirit, and He supplies the gifts I need at that moment, for that moment, to accomplish the task at hand for the kingdom of God. If I can work miracles, yet the person(s) before me needs to be prophecied over, what good is that? If a person needs a word of knowlege, and I speak in an unknown tongue, what good is that? It's like trying to turn a screw with boxed end wrench. Failure is a certainty. So I do believe that the Holy Spirit supplies all my need, "IF" I am in His will, doing what He would have me do at any given moment. Yes, I do believe God blesses us with a prayer language that qualifies as an unknown tongue. Sometimes it is groanings too deep to utter. If it edifies and encourages your spirit, it is of God. Sometimes revelation of more of God follows, but not necessarily. Most of the time we feel better, though not always. But be assured, that God is alive in you as you have testified, and that He will supply severally (more than one) as the need arises. I hope this blesses you, edifies you, and encourages you to let God be all HE CAN BE in you! That is His desire. To bring it to pass, we only need to die to self, and let Him live in us and through us. If it is His life living through us, we need not be anxious about whether we have this gift or that gift. We just trust God and go on with Jesus. It was at the cross where we first saw the light. If you find yourself in a dark place, go back to the cross. The light is still shinning there. The cross, to those who are being saved is the "power" of God. Alleluia and amen.In awe of Him,Lahry
Wow Lahry,Ever have a thought just precede your reading of it? Backtracking through these replies, was wondering to myself precisely this:Yes, I do believe God blesses us with a prayer language that qualifies as an unknown tongue. Sometimes it is groanings too deep to utter.Had never really stopped to think of it in this way and by it's own nature and description it is quite paradoxical. Quite familiar with it though it goes through and past my... fleshly senses? It's felt more than expressed, a foreign language to the mind while still allowing intercession for others to mix in and out as well as the personal needs, the spiritual hunger and thirst to be filled, to be...taken, to give up everything for His sake...Ah, here I am describing what I thought was indescribable.It seems that it finds it's expression more after the fact, that the bringing to mind of verses out of the depths rather than measuring up to them;2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. Rom 8:23 However, not only creation groans, but we who have the first fruits of the Spirit also groan inwardly as we eagerly wait for our adoption, the redemption of our bodies. It usually get's expressed by that word that is not a word that I know of."Oh"Ah, found just what I was looking for in this regards:Vital ConnectivityA very different and interesting perspective here Lahry, more so that it came just prior to your mention, it brings to mind another old quote, with a slight twist in intent: Do I met you praying?" ;-)
...can we just stop for a moment and worship Him together? Oh that we had a chat room there so we could all meet and worship together. Just magnify His presence with scriptural edification and worship. Just glory in His promises and love. My Lord and my God. Just to be still with You Lord, is worth it all. Fill us all together, as we wait with hearts of thanksgiving. Oh that we could trust You oh Lord, to the point that circumstances and events would not shake us up. Oh to have that confidence in Your love, that this life would not remove our hearts and our minds from Your goodness. Holy God. Holy God. So very Holy is our God. Love beyond description, love abounding toward us. Oh that You continue to take pleasure in Your love toward us through the glory of Your Son Jesus. Alleluia. Alleluia. Come quickly Lord, for we thirsteth after Thee.
Hi Lahry,Im from that part of the planet called France.I read with interest and deep deep empathy your entry "Vital Connectivity.Many many years ago, I read a book by Parker who said something about deception in either the speaking of tongues or the interpretation of it. I also understand that there is no deception so big or so sinful as that of self-deception. So, may the Lord forgive me for harboring this scepticism mixed with fear in regard to tongues. Along with that is probably the prideful belief that we can love God or know that He loves us without needing to be shown these outward signs. Somehow God chose to love me in another way and instead of rejoicing, I doubted. Even as I write this, there is this reservation in some part of me that I may be wrong and refuse to enter into this mystery. O, what a wretched man I am...On all other fronts, Im not as confused as I sound concerning tongues. I see the work of God in my life and in the lives of all my loved ones. Inspite of the tremendous sufferings in my family of late, the blessings have also been awesome. Im coming to that spot where I can see, even the sufferings were meant for good though I wouldnt dare share this with the family. Not everyone can be at the same spot at the same time and I have to be sensitive to their feelings.Indeed there are no quick answers to deep deep questions.
Quote:"Todd, I dont know what it is to "start using this gift regularly...." Its not that I have much control in this. I dont really "know" the language. Im afraid to get into a situation of self-hypnosis."That's totally understandable. I once felt the very same way. I suppose it's how you think about the gift. Do you see it as a gift that just comes upon you at times, or a gift that you have? I think that if you've ever spoken in tongues you have that gift and can use it whenever you choose to. Just like if you got a weight lifting set for Christmas from your earthly father. Now the set is yours and you can go and lift whenever you choose to. But maybe that is not a totally accurate understanding. But it has been my experience. Could it be that you have more control over it than you think?
Todd, you wroteDo you see it as a gift that just comes upon you at times, or a gift that you have? Thats a neat question I never thought of asking myself. Are tongues a once and for all gift, like Salvation? Or is it one that is given for a certain purpose (edification) for a certain time (in times of great need). Is there anything in the Bible that can enlighten us on this? On the occasions its been given me, it was at times of special needs. I guess God wanted to impress upon me of His presence in my particular circumstance at those particular times. It was important for me to know that in a real way, as I was immobilised by fear. If the giving and the receiving of a gift is within my control, how much can I account for it being "me" rather than Him.I hope Im not splitting hair here. I tend to want to err on the side of caution but I guess thats too pragmatic. I dont want to make light of a gift given by God.
free, Again you raise some good questions to consider. Here's some Scriptures that I think are relevant.Romans 11:29"for the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable."It seems clear from this verse that if God gives you a gift then that's that. You have it. Acts 3:6"But Peter said, 'I do not possess silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you: In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene- walk!' And seizing him by the right hand, he raised him up; and immediately his feet and his ankles were strengthened." Peter had something that was able to make a lame man well. Peter, a man with flesh, had something supernatural, and he used it. What did he have? Perhaps a gift of healing, perhaps a gift of faith, but for sure power. Peter had power to heal sick people. The trick is that it didn't simply come from himself. He didn't create it. It was given to him by God (see v. 12). It's God's power, given to Peter. I see it like a weapon given by God to his son. God gives his son a weapon and then the son has it to use whenever he chooses to. It seems that in this case (Peter healing the beggar) the weapon was simply the name of Jesus and the trigger was pulled by faith (see v. 16).Acts 28:8"And it came about that the father of Publius was lying in bed afflicted with recurrent fever and dysentery; and Paul went in to see him and after he had prayed, he laid his hands on him and healed him."Who healed him? Paul did. Paul healed this sick man. But it was God's power which Paul had. But Paul had to cooperate with God and step out in faith for the power to flow.It seems that functioning in the gifts always involves cooperating with God. And we can be sure that our loving and patient Father wants us, His children, to grow strong and be built up. If He has given us a special gift that makes us stronger, why not use it anytime?1 Cor. 12:7 "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good...."One of these manifestations is tongues (see v. 10). Even tongues is for the common good. Because the stronger and more blessed you are, the more you will strengthen and be a blessing to others. I think that the gift might come forth stronger when you're in a time of great need because you might need more urgent building up if your inner parts are being broken down.
God bless you Todd. Your highlighting of Romans 11:29"for the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable."is powerful and open up a whole new understanding of the Lord's work in my life for me. And thanks also for clarifying what the gift was for. you said: Even tongues is for the common good. Because the stronger and more blessed you are, the more you will strengthen and be a blessing to others.Since "gifts and calling" in Romans 11:29 are said in one breath, I take it that the gift given me has a calling. And the calling is to be strong for others. Yes, I truly believe that Christians are best not seen to fall into deep despair. When the world is falling apart, we shouldnt.Thanks for your support.
free,You're very welcome.Glad I could be of help to you about this.Interesting insight you bring on Romans 11:29. I had never thought of that. But I think you might be right. Blessings on your adventure in God.
todd writesRomans 11:29"for the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable."It seems clear from this verse that if God gives you a gift then that's that. You have it. mmm? but is 'tongues' this kind of gift? I Corinthians 12:1 does not have the word 'gift' in its original, and the list is preceded by the phrase 'the manifestation of the Spirit'. Now Romans 11:29 does not say that the 'gifts and callings of God are without repentace' but that that 'gifts and calling (singular) are without repentance.You will be aware the 'being married' or 'being single' is referred to as a charisma earlier in 1 Corinthians. (1 Cor 7:7) In your scenario how would this play out? If the 'charisma of singleness' is 'without repentance' what happens to it when the person marries?
Shalom to all, Personally, I don't believe that anyone has carte blanche" "Power". I don't even see Jesus excercising such ability before the cross when He was here. After the cross, He moved at will and did amazing things that were very supernatural (clue). You may recall that Jesus was ever slipping away to be with the Father? Why is that? Yes, it was to pray, but it was also to get His marching and speaking orders. "What's next"? See, Jesus said that He did not say or do anything, unless the Father told Him too. That is why He had to wait 4 days to go and raise up Lazarus. Jesus only needed faith the size of a grain of mustard seed to raise up Lazarus. Why? Because He had been alone with the Father, and the Father told Him "now, go and raise up Lazarus". With that, Jesus had all the power of the throne of God backing Him up. As disciples, dare we do any different? I am of the conclusion here that we do not see this kind of "power" in the church because nobody is willing to spend the time with the Father and walk and speak in obedience to Him. We are too confident in ourselves, our talents and "gifts" and the world pays the price. Even before we would receive such direction from the Father, there must be worship. As Len Ravenhill said, we have replaced "devotion" with "commotion". The Father has written "ICABOD" over the door and Jesus is outside knocking, trying to get in, while we encourage one another that we have plentious of goods and are in need of nothing. I do believe, that the manifest power is available. Jesus told His disciples that they would do the things He did, and even greater things. Well, Jesus was obedient, even unto death on the cross. If we are going to do the things Jesus did, we must be obedient as well. Obedient to the Law? More than that, spend time with the Father, and through the leading of His Holy Spirit do and say what He tells us. What do we do if He is silent? Why we are silent as well. Seems simple enough. But in our "busyness", divine things take a back seat to what ever else we make time for. That is to me, the root of the problem. If we were busy learning from the Father and doing His will, we would not need to be having this discussion at all. We would have much more fruitful things to do. The lack of "power" in our lives is sure proof that you and I do not spend near enough time alone, with our Father. Ghandi once said that if christians lived like the bible teaches, India would be won in one day. ONE DAY! That's over a billion people. If this were true, the whole world could be won in a week or so....if only....we lived....like the bible teaches us too. Oh the shame of my life. The foolish things I spend my time on when I could be alone......with the Father. God help us all. Jesus said that not everyone will enter in, but those who do the "will" of His Father. This means that there are many who will be attempting to get in, but will be turned away. Will it be you? Will it be me? Do you know Him? Does He know you? Do I know Him? Does He really know me? If I've really "laid down my life for His life", why am I not spending more time with the Father with Whom I have audience anytime by the blood of Jesus? Tough questions for me. What about you?in remorse and regret,Lahry
Lahry, you have moved the conversation a bit from tongues to obedience to the Father. I do, absolutely agree with you BTW, on everything you said about the necessity to spend more time with the Father. Please elaborate on how that has to do with tongues. Unless you are meaning that we should not seek "gifts" but the relationship.I have to add that I was a little troubled with my own experience on account of my earlier feeling about tongues. I was once living in a city (wont give name) in which practically every church I went to, had people loudly speaking in tongues. I felt that even as it unsettled me somewhat, as a new believer, how much more would it to unbelievers. Some of the visitors tell me that they are downright repulsed by it and never went back. I once brought this up with a church leader who completely shut me off by saying that I should not talk about things I do not know. I guess because of my earlier scepticism, I had wondered if I actually spoke in tongues and needed clarification. The mind is a very dangerous place, you see. Anyway, when in doubt, be conservative, as they say. If I have any control over the use of tongues at all, I will try not to speak it in company so as not to stumble anyone. Didnt Paul say that we should in fact not use it in church?
Quote:"mmm? but is 'tongues' this kind of gift?"I believe it is. All throughout 1 Cor. 12 (verses 4, 9, 28, 30, 31) this same exact word (charisma) is used.Are you implying that speaking in tongues is not a "gift" (charisma) but it is a "manifestation" of the Spirit? After mentioning each of the "manifestations" of the Spirit, in 1 Cor. 12:31 Paul says, "But earnestly desire the greater gifts (charismas)." Doesn't that make it clear that all the "manifestations" he just mentioned are gifts (charismas)? Tongues is mentioned in the verse right before. Look at Romans 12:6-7:"And since we have gifts (charismas) that differ according to the grace given to us, let each exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, accoriding to the proportion of his faith, if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching..."Now sure, tongues is not specifically mentioned here, but these are the same types of "manifestations" that are listed in 1 Cor. 12 and here they are clearly distinguished as "gifts" (charismas). As a side note, I think that tongues is a lot like prophecy in how it can be exercised. That is, according to the proportion of your faith. As far as 1 Cor. 7, I have never thought of that before, but I don't see the dilemma. For one thing, I'd like to point out that Paul does not say that "being married" or "being single" is a gift. You can infer that, but it is not stated. Regardless, if someone has such a gift, I suppose it means that they have the grace/ability to live pure without being married. If they then choos to get married, that doesn't mean God took the gift away or repented of it, but perhaps that the individual who had the gift forfeited it. They still may have had that ability to remain single and pure but they chose marriage anyway. In fact, I suppose it's possible that a married person could still have this gift. They still have the ability and grace to live pure without a wife but they have one anyway. They don't need one, but they happen to have one.Does that work? Also, thanks for correcting me on Romans 11:29. You're right, "calling" is singular, I just made a mistake.
only God can give us a prayer language, that the devil will never understand. we go to that secret place, that's only Gods and our place. It's that one on one relationship that belongs only to God and us. It will pass away as the word says, because we will not need it later as we will be with God and walk with him in the cool of the day as before in the garden
Gifts of the Spirit, Free, are the result of being in fellowship with God. Would you not think that the gift giver is more important than the gifts? Charasmatic churches have become "christless" in their pursuit for "experiences". That is very sad. David Wilkerson wrote an outstanding piece on that. If you have trouble finding it, let me know. It's called "Christless Penecost" I believe. Satan has always been a deciever. He mirrors, smoke screens, and lies. But it is powerless. The promise of the Christ is that the Spirit will baptise with "power", not gifts. Gifts are just tools we use in the administration of the power that He provides when we walk in His will and desire for us doing His good pleasure. I have a "prayer language" that is unknown to me. I know I simply do not ever feel led to speak in an unknown tongue in church. But diverse administrations of gifts means just that. Diverse, many different kinds, as He wills, not us.Folks make such a big deal out of tongues. Some say that you are not baptised in the Holy Spirit unless you speak in tongues, regardless of what kind of gibberish they can get you to speak. Then more often than not, someone will "interpret", which sounds about as generic as a greeting card that costs a quarter. I have to doubt the validity of their "gift".The emphasis of the christian should always be Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would testify of Jesus Himself. So ask yourself, in your own person church or situation. Who is being lifted up and glorified. That will give you a real clue as to who's in charge. By the way, discernment is a very important gift too. That's one that will bless you over and over again. How I do thank God that He gives me discernment when I need it most. Blessed be the Lord forever and ever.In awe of His unmerited favor,Lahry
Quote:"Didnt Paul say that we should in fact not use it in church? "Nope. But he did say that if you're in a church gathering and there's no interpreter to keep it quiet and speak in tongues only to yourself and to God (1 Cor. 14:28). I understand this to mean that if there's nobody to interpret your tongue, don't speak out with it (as in a public proclamation type of way), but you can still speak privately to yourself and God with it anytime, in or out of Church.
As this topic is about tongues anyway, I heard some sermons from Ravenhill and others that they said that even mormons spoke in tongues..I can't imagine they speak tongues from the Holy Spirit. Can anyone shed some light on this?Thanks :)
Warrior, I don't know a lot about Mormonism, but it might just be counterfeit. Just like psychic reading can be a counterfeit to true prophecy.
Well I guess that there are also 'fruits' of deceptive spirits or demons, when such as that dwells in you.
I've heard accounts of demonic manifestations of "tougues." Just because someone speaks in tougues doesn't mean they are filled with the Holy Ghost. I do belive in the baptism of the Holy Ghost pentecostally. In other words that when you are baptised in the Holy Ghost you will speak in tougues. That doctrine has been discussed I'm sure in other threads so lets not get into it here. My only hurt about what the pentcostals have done to this doctrine is that I belive there are alot of "shallow baptisms" if that makes sense. What I mean by that is alot of people have spoke in tougues but have not recived that power as a true Baptism of the Holy Ghost would bring. Many in the pentecostal realm have seeked speaking in tougues rather than the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
I wanna take a different spin on all of this.I do speak in tounges. But i subside it, because of my own convictions.I.e. I will NOT speak tounges 'over' a person (pray for them in tounges)I will NOT speak in tounges in churchAnd i try my best to just not speak in tounges PERIOD. Why? cause the bible says 'as the SPirit gave utterance'.I thought when i first read 1 Corin. 12 that i was right in my decision on tounges. *(i felt like God was leading me to 3 different kinds of biblical tounges)*1. Prayer language, NO ONE KNOWS2. Prophesy, but must be interupted by 2-3 people3. The 'sign' to the Unbeliever as what happened at Pentacost.But, thinking about it stronger and dwelling on this topic more and more.I have thought of a 'new' (or old..idk) way of thinking of what this Scripture truly means.Keep in mind, all the gifts of the Spirit that are in the NT are in the OT....except this 'prayer language'. Why?? This truly does bother me.Now you could agrue this, but isn't Jesus the Same ?? not different. If the people in the OT had all the gifts but one...did Christ change something??*(These are all TRUE questions that i have not found the answer to yet)*Now, Think of it in the way of the apostles. You know hebrew and aramaic (sp?) and maybe like 1 more language IF THAT. And bam, God fills you up, and you speak in tounges; what happens?? they hear MYSTERIES from GOD. (*when is the last time that happened at your church service, when someone was 'interupting tounges'*)The bible says tounges is a SIGN for the unbelievers. Could it just be another language?? How can we go off just ONE verse for a doctrine? isn't that how many doctrines of demons come into existance.I believe maybe (not sure yet) but that maybe tounges could POSSIBLY just be another language, that the person who received it doesn't know yet. (Pray that HE MAY INTERUPT) why? cause the hebrews dont know SPanish!!! the spanish people do...not the hebrews!!Again, this is just another 'way' to think of tounges. And there have been a few 'weird' scriptures...that speak about 'speaking in a new/strange language'...and i dont think you wanna know what it all says...*cause it will be very ironic*
Well what also changed is that the Holy Spirit could only be available to all people because Jesus died and resurrected.John 16:7 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.Before the Spirit of God would only come on selected people and not for the masses.I don't think tongues are a sign for unbelievers. If you talk in tongues to someone who does not believe in the word of God will it help the person?1 Corinthians 14:22 and 23. Does Paul really say that tongues is a sign for the unbelievers? Look closely at verse 23 and read 24 and 25.If I could speak in tongues I would prolly not speak in tongues before people but only in privat.And why not speak it at times when you are alone? It is said that it builds you up. Speaking in tongues is probably the only gift you can purely use for yourself.Just some thoughts.. perhaps they are helpfull.
I know everyone's stance is pretty much the same. But try to maybe step back from the preconceived notions (im not saying im right..nor wrong..cause i dont even know..lol)Just test and try it. Try reading 1 Corin. 12-14 , as instead of 'tounges' but as 'languages' or just change it to a specific language.... "English, Spanish"..etc.. Cause they knew hebrew...just not what we speak...Dwell on these. I'm putting it on the Rock, will it stay? Idk, let the Fire come and devour it, and may God reveal the Truth....whatever it is..
http://www.abideinjesus.com/speakintongues.htmlIs a side that i still take on tounges...It's pretty much what i already stated, but better worded.I'm still throwing this curve ball to see how it lands...
Well I haven't read your link because I have to go to bed.. (going to a biblecamp tomorrow and have to get up early)Well I know there are 2 types of tongues in the Bible. One is where everyone from other countries can understand eachother. And another where the person who speaks in tongues doesn't even know what he himself is saying.I don't think I get your point why you don't want to speak in tongues.But whatever you decide it is no matter of life and death. Caring for the unsaved, getting close to Jesus and more has higher priority.I will read your link when I get back from camp.Ask God to take your doubt (if you have any) away and to lead you. God bless! :-)ps.. not that I know alot about the subject, but I'm curious about it.
well, whenever i've spoken in toungues my spirit has known it and if i questioned it, the thought would sit correctly with my spirit, but there have been times when i have really listened to my spirit and it's told me that alot of that was just babble, me trying to seek after God in a language of his spirit in me -to heaven, but really i've been too desperate and my spirit has said, you forced that... now, tongues for me is not only a sheer expression of glorification towards God that surrenders your spirit in passion to storm heaven, but also a means to access heaven, when i dont feel like it. when my feelings are holding me back and im not desperate to grasp God and really seek God i try to speak in tongues -in heaven's language i guess,- to glorify God out of my situation, then he's honoured me for it and true toungues rolled out of me. its always been the heart behind it for me; the real reason you're trying to speak tongues in the first place, i dont know how it is for you but the above i just typed sits well in my spirit. its up to God to tell you, But in the first place, its your call to seek God and ask for him to reveal whether what you're doing is the real deal or not... wow what a long text, just got typing eh... lol
Oh well this seems to be such a popular topic I thought I'd chime in. I have never spoken in tongues, or seen someone do so, however, whatever it is, it is clearly in Scripture. Chuck Missler has a great commentary on the subject, and always seems to find things in Scripture that people miss:http://www.khouse.org/6640/BP026/Missler says that both "sides" of the tongues debate are wrong (that should make you want to listen).I would consider Ravenhill to be the most reliable advocate as of late. He said that tongues were legitimate, as was interpretation. He said interpretation was very rare. From that statement, I would have to think from the amount of people claiming they have this gift, that many are not genuine.The gift of tongues is being abused just as are other spiritual things. God said that even the table of the Lord could be a snare and a trap. Any focus on anything but Him is wrong. Spurgeon explained how people abused Calvinism by sitting back and letting God doing the work. Freewill is abused by one thinking that it is completely up to them for people to be converted, while Finney explained that workers are just the means of the Holy Spirit using someone. Baptism is abused by people focusing on the tank more than God. They don't want to talk to anyone who isn't big on baptism, while Paul said, "I came not to baptize, but to preach the gospel." This list could be endless.Tongues and other doctrines are abused for 4 reasons in my opinion. People forget or ignore:1) God's primary commandment, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength (first half of commandments of Moses)2) God's secondary commandment, Love your neighbor as yourself (second half of commandments of Moses)3) God's commission, Preach the gospel to every creature. Commission appears in all four gospels and in Acts. 2% of Christians actually do this.4) To study Scripture and pray. Many open their mouth who do not personally seek God, and read His message to us as a part of their life.Disagree if you will, but I think many are messed up because they are not heeding the above. I don't think anyone will have the Holy Spirit poured out on them in the form of a spiritual gift if they are not speaking up for God. Why would God put his seal of approval on someone who is not trying to win anyone to Christ. Read through the New Testament and you will never see someone lifted up for a spiritual gift. God exalts those who speak up for Him to the lost: John Baptist did, Christ, the disciples, Paul, etc etc. So the gift of tongues is Scriptural, and real, but it is causing more problems that all the other gifts. Satan turns things upside down from what Jesus preached. It seems from some posts that some who advocate tongues see them in perspective, while others exalt them to an un-Scriptural status. Let us remember to exalt Christ, brothers, so that when He is lifted up, He will draw all men to Him.
Grace, peace, and love be multiplied: I think the first thing that we all as Christians should understand it that all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are indeed, the gifts of the Holy Spirit. That means that these gifts were not the gifts of the apostles, but the gifts of the Spirit. This should clear up any idea that the gifts (as some teach) "died" with the apostles. Secondly, since the spiritual gifts come from the Holy Spirit, they do not cause confusion, but edification. Only people cause the confusion. Some believers who may have been sincere, but misguided in the use of a gift have caused many to concluded that these thing are not real, or they are not for us today, how sad. I say sad because I know that many precious brethren in some denominations have been sculptured and taught horrible things against the true gifts of the Holy Spirit which has only robbed these precious believers from experiencing all that God has for his children. Tell me you who do not believe that the gifts are for the church today: If the Father in heaven had a wonderful gift for you, and he really wanted you to have it, wouldn't you want to recieve it to his glory? Of course you would. It is the Fathers good pleasure to give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him. I know that at convertion every believer has the Holy Spirit on the inside, but what Christ refered to was the fullness of the blessing in Spirit baptizm as the early church received on the day of Pentecost. God said that he would "poor out of my Spirit, and your sons and your daughter will prophesy." This promise was not only for those of the first century, but "unto as many as the Lord our God shall call." Another point to bear in mind is on the day of Pentecost, the bible says, "and there came a sound from HEAVEN as of a mighty rushing wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting." Notice, this sound came "from heaven" not from some man, or some Pentecostal, or Charsmatic denomination. The baptizm in the Holy Spirit with the gifts of the Spirit were God's idea and plan, not of man. So my incouragement to those of you who have not recieved the baptizm in the Holy Spirit; ask in faith believing for it is the Father's good pleasure to give the Holy Spirit to those who ask. The only requirement to recieving is to be saved. If you have been truly born-again, you are a candidate to be endued with power from on high. Maranatha!!! :-)
The past 3 or 4 posts were true, and great comments. But will anyone confront what ive been saying??? Or just avoid it and let it cause a confusion in me.? Honestly, ALL the gifts except this 'prayer language' is in the OT. Is today's 'tounges' as Pentacostals and Charasmatics preach, true to the bible? or was is TRULY just a language? (which is what im kinda saying). I don't need to repeat my stance on the tounges, but i will for those who have just joined in. I DO pray in tounges, but wait on God for Him to give me utterance, there have been like 2-3 times where God just SHOUTED tounges thru me when demonic forces came enclosing in. (I also had a link in the past of my stance on tounges,im just bringing up another stance to test and try it...and see if its of God)But, is tounges truly a 'heavenly' prayer language, or just a language that SOMEONE knows...??Peace clearify this with scripture. Philogos? Greg?? Anyone!!
YeshuaIsMyGod, I believe that the understanding you are bringing up concerning tongues, that of being a real language, can happen and that's awesome. I know of one man from Mozambique who supernaturally learned like 12 languages like that without any training. The moment he came to a new village he instantly got the native language. But 1 Cor. 14:2 seems to make it very clear that this is not the exclusive understanding of tongues. 1 Cor. 14:2"For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries."
One of the dillemmas that we face today is that the epistles were occasional letters; therefore, they dealt with the problems of the day and with the exception of the abuse of tongues by the Corinthians, there was no need for the apostles to dwell on this topic in their letters. Personally, while speaking in tongues speaks mysteries to God, I don't think this can support the view that it's a secret language the devil can't understand as though if he knew what we were saying we'd be in trouble. Here's a link to some sermons by George O. Wood, a man in the Assembly of God denomination whom I deeply respect, that might help you out:The Holy SpiritIn Christ,Jeremy Hulsey
When i find time to listen to that audio, or read that article..w/e it is ;) i will do so. :)1 Cor. 14:2"For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries."now...keep this all in context...If we all spoke in Hebrew. And i started to speak in English. What would you Hebrew speakers be saying of me? That i speak 'mysteries'. That i speak of things that you know, and only God knows.Now, i bet you all have been on a missions trip...dont you get a sorta feeling about these tounges when your there??I do, thats why i brought this up.What does the scripture mean by 'mind being unfruitful'? Well, think of it this way, when i speak to you, is my mind being fruitful? Yes, your eating the fruit of my words. But when i speak to you in spanish (another language) is our conversataion, or even my mind fruitful? No. how can it be?This story that is above, 12 languages. That's what i am starting to believe is tounges. Not some 'prayer language'.To say tounges is a prayer language, by ONE verse, is doing the bible injustice. No doctrine was ever created from God by ONE VERSE. Trinity, hell, heaven, Power, Gifts, Salvation. ETc. Was it one verse these all came into existance? NO!So, again, the challenge is up. I know the Pentacostal's stance on this. Heck i go to a Charasmatic/Pentacostal church. Vineyard....I love my church, but yet Tounges is something that needs more biblical proof on. (From TODAY's Pentacostal teaching).Again, i do speak in tounges, but, i dont see the point or fruit in it....SCRIPTURALLY.
I would venture to answer many of your points here but they are all dealt with in the link I provided better than what answers I could give.
Here is a link on the 'other' stance. (Tounges is JUST a nature language, not some 'prayer' language)http://biblestudy.org/maturart/tongues.htmlOh, keep in mind, its kinda long.
I'll take a crack at it again.I think I see what you're saying about 1 Cor. 14:2, but I think it's clearly a stretch to see it that way. It clearly says that the one who speaks in a tongue "does not speak to men." If it was just a case of a Hebrew speaking Spanish, as you mentioned, it doesn't add up. Who would he speak Spanish to? The moment he spoke to another man this theory is done. Because the tongues Paul is talking about here does not involve speaking to men, only to God. It says that "no one understands." Again, if it was the case with a Hebrew speaking Spanish, the minute the Spanish-speaking person understood this theory is done. Because it seems clear that the tongues Paul is talking about here is understood by nobody. If the language is understood, then how could it be the tongues Paul is talking about here? One verse is enough. If it says it, it says it. Who says there has to be a strong doctrine made out of it? It's simply a truth.But I also think 1 Cor. 14:4 is relevant here.1 Cor. 14:4"One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself." If it was just some real language he was speaking which he didn't know, and not a spiritual language, how would that edify him? If I just started reading off vocabulary words in Spanish that I didn't know in some random order and the sounds were just coming out of my mouth and I had no idea what any of it meant, I don't think I'd be edified. Why would the Holy Spirit ever give this gift to someone and have them use it unless an interpreter is there? Clearly, according to 1 Cor. 14, the gift functions when there is no interpreter there. And if there's no interpreter, what's the point, according to the theory you are proposing? I think the most obvious point the Scripture makes about speaking in tongues is that it edifies the believer. And the stronger the believer is in God, the more of a blessing he will be to the Church and the world. But I believe there are many other benefits and fruits of speaking in tongues.
Yesh,I know exactly what your asking, and I worried myself for sometime trying to figure that out. I don't know whether it's a language of heaven or a language of man. But make sure to post a thread when you find out! I've heard good godly men preach both sides, and I just decided to "covet earnestly the best gifts" and not to divide from anybody that loves Jesus Christ and the Bible!
hmm, good stance... ill probly get back on this topic within a week hopefully.
This has been a long thread and I have only scanned it but I think it is instructive and challenging to note how Paul expected 'tongues' to function. I don't think there are many who would dispute the interpretation than in 1 Cor 14...'“For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.” (1Cor. 14:14-15, KJVS)...the phrase "with the spirit" is synonymous with "in an unknown tongue". The interesting thing is that when Paul illustrates his point he identifies three areas of activity...1. I will pray with the spirit2. I will sing with the spirit3. when thou shalt bless with the spirit4. giving of thanksThe orientation of these activites is always God-wards. This is the individual reaching out to God in each instance. Paul follows this with the statement that his personal exercise of 'speaking in tongues' was more than those to whom he wrote. He plainly does not expect any 'interpretation' of this exercise, either from others or from himself. He is confident, nevertheless, that 1Cor. 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself...In our own meetings tongues and interpretation takes two clear routes. Sometimes the 'tongue utterance' is interpreted with a prophetic orientation. By that I mean that the interpretation is as though God were speaking to the gathered saints. At other times, however, the 'tongue utterance' is interpreted with a prayer orientation. By that I mean that the interpretation is as though the speaker was addressing God. We have no laws about this but when the gathered saints are given an insight into the 'prayer with the spirit' of an individual it is always a powerful spur to personal response to God.I think many may have narrowed the usefulness of this 'manifestation of the Spirit' by their own narrowed expectations.
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. When I was first attending gatherings with those who had received the Holy Spirit, there was a young man (leading) who had many questions to the Lord, about the gifts of the Spirit. He was new to the demands of being a Christian, and was trying to understand gifts as well as the benefit of obedience, having recently found himself applying paint to someone else's walls. He was not used to doing things for other people.His helpful observation was this: that one has to 'put the power of one's body' into comlying with the Spirit, whether it be obedience to undertake a new activity (such as painting) or, obedience to operate gift(s) one has received. This understanding has made a huge difference to my life. Eventually, when God was giving me the gift of tongues, I understood that if I wanted to benefit from it, I had to be obedient to put the 'power of my body' into giving voice to the word from the Spirit. In the same terms as Romans 8:27 'he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what the mind of the Spirit' somehow, tongues work both to communicate with God and for God to minister. Sometimes, it is a different tongue from other times, but this is not a frequent occurrence, nor anything but a matter for praise and worship.Regarding the discussion in previous posts about language, therefore, this is what happened to a girl I once knew. She was German and before I met her, had come to the UK to learn English. She was soon invited to a local charismatic church and had what can only be described as a striking spiritual experience. She had no idea what to expect, or, faith in God, having become an atheist and leaving behind her Roman Catholic roots long before she came to Britain. What she heard at church, eventually, was someone speaking in an unknown tongue. It was neither English, nor German, BUT SHE UNDERSTOOD EVERY 'WORD'. In other words, as the person gave the 'tongue' the Holy Spirit was giving the interpretation to her heart and mind. (She responded to God once she was back in her room and many demons left her body that afternoon. This was the beginning of her conversion and salvation.)
Here is my question, those both are great testimonies to tounges/gifts. and that encouraged me.But, here is my question. Paul said the purpose of tounges, is a 'sign to the unbeliever'. But later says 'if an unbeliever or ungifted man walks in, he will think your mad'.So, there must be more than one purpose of tounges, yes?*going against my own made up stuff, ie, tounges is just a man language*Haha, i orginally made this reply to be 'against tounges being spiritual language' but since i quoted that last verse...umm it went the other way..So, maybe i was truly hearing from God.1. Prayer (unknown to anyone except the Lord)2. Prophetic (2-3 needs to interupt)3. Mysteries, Evanglistical (No one, it just happens 'Peter/disciples/120 spoke, everyone heard the words in their own language')That was my first stance on tounges, because i truly felt this is what God spoke to me.I'm not dissing the bible, but that is where People's lives come in. To fill the 'missing words' in the bible. Or 'unknown things'. The epistles of Christ help us understand the Written Word of God.I need to pray about this. Peace. Thanks folks, any more people?
2. Prophetic (2-3 needs to interupt)Yeshua,Not all prophecy comes forward in tongues. It is very often in the language spoken locally. I would not assume either, that there ought to be interruptions when a prophecy is being given, especially if it is being given in tongues, when it is next natural to wait for the Spirit to give someone the interpretation.The verse which says the spirits of the prophets is subject to the prophets, (1 Cor 14:32) suggests there is a choice about whether to speak now, or in the next 'window' which becomes available.
About understanding tongues may I recount a story I read in J.I. Packer's book "Knowing God". He told of a time when an African got up in church to recite Psalm 23 in an obscure African dialect. That reading was "interpreted" in a totally unrelated way. Packer asks - where did all this come from. In one of Art Katz sermons - the Crucified Christ (I think), he also questioned this practice and regreted that churches are giving room to this. Where do I stand on this? I feel there are indeed many types of tongues and in the confusion, the Devil is right in the midst of it sometimes. There is a huge demand on our own part to be discerning and that is the very reason why I doubted myself. I dont want to throw out the baby with the bathwater but on the otherhand I dont want to hold on the the Devil's baby. Truly it is a dilema.If I err, I stumble myself and thats okay. My faith would just be held back for a while. But if I stumble unbelievers and they are turned off by my behavior, I am responsible.
dorcas wrote:
I never said that. I am a straight forward person.I was speaking of TOUNGES and the purposes of it. Not of any other gift.Prophesy can work thru our language and thru tounges. Don't be so quick to speak. The topic is Tounges, not prophesy.There is only 3 purposes of tounges.1. Edify self (Prayer language)2. Edify church *Prophesy*(Tounges, with 2-3 interupting)3. Waken or Edify unbeliever (Acts 2, Speaking mysteries in their own language, or receving a certain language , 'record' time.)understand? Again, i need to pray and dwell about this more.2. Prophetic (2-3 needs to interupt)Yeshua,Not all prophecy comes forward in tongues. It is very often in the language spoken locally.
Yeshua,First, I accept I may seemed to have misunderstood you and even when I was responding, I was wondering if your word 'interupt' was supposed to be 'interpret'. However, as you have repeated it again, I have reread 1 Cor 14.2. Edify church *Prophesy*(Tounges, with 2-3 interupting)In the post to which I replied, you had used the word 'prophetic'. This did not clarify you were referring to tongues, as Paul is switching between tongues and not tongues, as you will see. He also says that a person who gives a tongue, should be willing to interpret, or, keep silence. And he says if 2 or 3 people give a tongue 'and let one interpret'. I had the impression you were saying prophets could interupt the one who was already speaking, but now, I wonder if you meant 'interpret', all along; in which case, it is possible for each person to interpret the tongue they bring. If may comment further, the gift of interpretation is a specific gift. Paul is saying that if the person giving the tongue doesn't have it and neither does anyone else, the person should not give the message to the church in tongues (v 28).Do we have lift off, or am I still missing a cue?
I miss spelled. YET AGAIN, my vocab normally comes back to bite me in the butt. This is only one example...ekk... Sorry man. Thats another BIG mistake ( i also messed up extort, and exhort).So, im REALLY SORRY ABOUT THAT!!dorcas wrote:Yeshua,
This did not clarify you were referring to tongues, as Paul is switching between tongues and not tongues, as you will see. I thought i did, BOTH times. I was 'IN CONTEXT' talking about the 'purposes of tounges'. Prophetically is the second way tounges works, and it edifies the church.And he says if 2 or 3 people give a tongue 'and let one interpret'. 1 Cor. 14:27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; Hmm, i always thought there needed to be 2. Hmm, hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Thanks for stating that, i accept that rebuke. I needed that, cause i would get mad when one person would interpret tounges.I wonder if you meant 'interpret', all along; Yuppers...sorry.If may comment further, the gift of interpretation is a specific gift. Paul is saying that if the person giving the tongue doesn't have it and neither does anyone else, the person should not give the message to the church in tongues (v 28). Amen!! Amen!! AMEN! To many pray in tounges in the mist of people. Where is the encouragement/edification?After this convo, i think im back to the 'old' idea of it all. That yes, tounges is a spiritual language. BUT! I am not closing the book on it yet, still need to seek the Lord more.
Yeshua,Thanks for looking at the spelling for me. Maybe my post 'tongues and prophecy' on p5 of this thread, will now make more sense.Also, as far as the context of a church gathering, I'd suggest prophecy is the one use of tongues which has the potential to edify the whole body simultaneously.HOWEVER, the list philologos made - ...the phrase "with the spirit" is synonymous with "in an unknown tongue". The interesting thing is that when Paul illustrates his point he identifies three areas of activity...1. I will pray with the spirit2. I will sing with the spirit3. when thou shalt bless with the spirit4. giving of thanksThe orientation of these activites is always God-wards. This is the individual reaching out to God in each instance.is also, to the edifying of the Body. These are aspects of our communion in the Spirit.
thanks for bringing up what Phil brought up.Phil, how are those two terms 'interchangable' or the same?? Can you please explain this for me?How do you 'bless with tounges, and give thanks in tounges'?? Thanks guys. Really helped me out.
“For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.” (1Cor. 14:14-15, KJVS)Paul is contrasting two things here. He refers to the fact that if he 'prays in an unknown tongue' his understanding is unfruitful. In the church and in company with other saints the aim is to edify others but in this context 'tongues' will not edify them and will not help his own understanding.He choices not either/or but both when he distinguishes between 'praying with the spirit' and 'praying with the understanding'. 'prayer with the spirit' is 'prayer with tongues', 'prayer with the understanding' is prayer without tongues. He says he will pray in both ways. You would 'bless with tongues' by perhaps laying your hands on a brother and praying in tongues for him. You would 'give thanks in tongues' by praying with tongues for your meal. Anything that you can do 'with the understanding' in relation to prayer you can also do 'with the spirit/in tongues'. The difference is that your understanding will be more fruitful if you pray in your own language than in tongues. However, 'the understanding being fruitful' is not the only or even the main purpose of prayer.If I haven't made this clear, please ask again.
Yea, I'm still a little confused. Resently, i've been convicted or confused about praying in tounges 'over' people. I don't see the fruit in it.There have been times, id be scared, and id pray in tounges. Then pray in english cause i 'got my train of thought back unto God'.But, still. I don't see the purpose of having someone pray in tounges over me or anyone for that matter. (Please help me on this).There was 2 experiences i had. Where id pray over someone in tounges. And both received the Holy Spirit one spoke in tounges. The other, received or 'unvealed' some other pheominal gifts.I am now, 'in doubt'. About the prayer in tounges over someone.I go to a Vineyard church, so we are more gentle about everything. But 'tounges over people' happens. Resently it has bothered me. Because of the scripture 'if no1 interprets he/she is to keep silent'. Am i misunderstanding all of this?
Yesh,'if no1 interprets he/she is to keep silent'That is what I read, but I don't hear that being taught.
Yup, that's why I don't understand what Phil meant by 'tounges over someone'. Because of that scripture.Today during church, i felt led to speak in tounges silently over my friend. God really showed stuff to everyone. It was good.One thing i hold high. 'When you don't understand the scripture, Wait and Ask the Holy Spirit to re-iterate what the words of Jesus said'.Being led by God is something that i strive for.But, back on topic. Phil, can you shed some light on what you were speaking about??
Yup, that's why I don't understand what Phil meant by 'tounges over someone'. Because of that scripture.I don't think I used the phrase 'tongues over someone'. If I did I would want to change it. I am not referring to the staccato jabbering that is sometimes exercised. Paul seems to have two separate scenarios for tongues in mind. The one is in the setting of the gathered church and in which he insists that there be alternating interpretation. The second is in private exercise. It seems that it is in the private exercise of 'tongues' that 'blessing and giving of thanks' is in view.How would you see 'blessing and giving of thanks' being accomplished with the spirit/tongues? Keep asking if I am not making myself clear.
Yesh, I, too, currently go to a Vineyard and have experienced some of the same thing you talk about. I happen to like it (most of the time), but I think I do see your point and think that the Scripture reference you mention is relevant to the situation. Here's how I understand it at this point...A key verse in understanding this is verse 1 Cor. 14:30, which is just two verses down from the one you have referenced (v. 28). It gives us some insight into what Paul was thinking about in this passage. 1 Cor. 14:30"But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, let the first keep silent." Now, I don't know if this can be proven, but here's what I get out of that verse. Let's ask ourselves this question- why did Paul specifically make mention of one "who is seated?" Contemplating that, I believe that the practice in the Corinthian church was that if someone had a prophecy, they would stand up to give it. This practice does seem to make sense. We often do the same thing today even in our secular culture (at least my culture in southern California). In a public meeting, like a company lunch meeting at a workplace, it is a common practice for the one speaking to stand up. I believe that this was how the Corinthian church functioned (at least something like this). If we read chapter 14 in context, an important disctinction seems to be made between private and public speaking. Verse 28 is a prime example of this. How can one "keep silent" and "speak to himself and to God" at the same time? Is it possible to use a gift like tongues privately in a public setting? I believe this is what Paul meant in verse 28 when he said, "but if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God" (v. 28). Let's not foget that "church" here does not refer to a building, it refers to the assembly or gathering of saints. Also, from my study I don't think "keep silent" is the best translation for the Greek there. The Greek word is "Sigao" (#4601) which means "to keep silent: keep close (secret, silence), hold peace." It comes from the Greek word "Sige" (#4602) which apparantly comes from "Sizo" which literally means "to hiss, i.e. hist or hush, silence."I am no Greek expert, but it seems clear that this word does not necessarily mean complete silence. If it did, why would Paul say, "let him speak to himself and to God"? The word "speak" here literally means "to utter a voice or emit a sound." So would it be possible to "keep completely silent" and "utter a voice or emit a sound" at the same time? Someone might be thinking, "Paul just means to talk to yourself and God in your head" without any actual movement of the mouth and tongue. But, from what I can tell, this is not only a strain on the Greek, it also seems a strain on the idea of "tongues" in the first place. Can you "speak in tongues" without using your tongue? Perhaps, in a sense, but it does seem to be quite a strain. But, I can speak in tongues to myself (in secret) in a quiet, hushed, whispered, and basically silent manner. My lips are moving and breath is coming out but I'm not engaging the vocal chords so much (or probably at all). I believe this is what Paul was getting at. I think what he is saying is when you are having an assembly, don't speak up in tongues unless there's someone to interpret. But you can speak to yourself in tongues quietly all you want. I think he's contrasting 2 different ways of speaking in tongues. One is speaking up in tongues (probably standing up as well) in the assembly so that the attention of the assembly is focused on you. The other way being quietly and hushed to yourself, which is only intended for private use.I don't know if people are ever praying in tongues "over" somebody else or if they are really praying to themselves and to God in tongues at the same time they are praying for others. I've done this many times. I may be focused on a person in prayer for a season (like 5 or 10 mintues) and there may be moments in between where I kind of get back in tune with God by speaking in tongues but it is intended for myself more than the person I am praying for. Though they can hear it, I think Paul is talking more about intention here. I think that tongues spoken for private use in a public gathering is fine unless the persons idea of "private use" is too loud and it becomes a distraction or problem. Then they probably just need to be told to quiet down. That's my take on it anyway. Obviously there's lots of my own opinion in there. But it does seem clear that the Greek leaves plenty of room for these opinions, and it makes sense to me and it matches my experience.
You opinion makes sense.Phil, thanks for clearing that up.There have been a few times where id 'speak in tounges silently'. Even in worship, when 'everyone was done worshipping' i was speaking in tounges silently. They saw my lips moving fast, but never heard what i was saying.Thanks everyone for clearling this all up for me. And Phil for going into the greek in different places.I love you all, and this was a great 'rebuke', even though you might not take it as that. I was leaning towards the 'human tounges' and about to just be caught into alot of confusion. This goes best with my spirit, always had, but this gives me a stronger biblical foundation.
To all who have posted,Hi, I'm new to the site and really enjoy reading the topics, but I was drawn to this one especially. I find it quite interesting the word studies in Greek posted here and the discussion about tongues.When the Tower of Babel was being built is when God gave the different languages to the world. From all the things that I have read in the Bible, God ALWAYS restores what sin has taken away. God is complete in the restoration of His people. I believe that upon receiving the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, God restored a universal language for His people...a spiritual language.I agree that if tongues are spoken in the assembly of the saints, that an interpretation should be given, but when the speaking of tongues is something that has the dynamic of someone speaking and the entire church listening and receiving a word from the Lord. I have attended churches in the US that were Pentecostal in nature and many times the Holy Spirit was using many people to pray one for another. People were prayed for in their native language by the person praying for them and in tongues.I feel this was appropriate because Satan doesn't have an understanding of this language that God has given to His people. Jesus lives in all who have received Him. The Trinity being separate but the same gives room for the Holy Spirit to speak through us for exactly what the person that we are praying for needs. Jesus is the Great Intercessor. Satan has no recourse to try to derail what the Holy Spirit is doing in someones life if he doesn't understand what is being said. Paul said that we wage war in the spirit, not in flesh. How many times has countries during a war used a secret language to prevent the enemy from coming against what was being done to gain victory.I think this is the same concept for speaking in tongues. If you are praying in your bedroom, it edifies yourself....if you are praying for someone and feel led by the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues I think, according to this line of thought, that you are benefitting the one for whom you are praying.If this is confusing, please ask questions. This is my opinion, but God has taught me that in order to learn you must have humility. I welcome any other thoughts.Bless you,
fil,I think you bring up many interesting points to consider. I think some of these things you mention might be possibilities. It would be helpful if you offered some Scripture verses to back up some of your ideas. Especially about speaking in tongues while praying for someone else. I still am not sure what I think about this. But I am leaning towards the belief that it is acceptable and can be very helpful.
I wanted to get in on this neat conversation, but wanted to wait to make sure it was safe. (still chicken :).There 'are' two types of "tongues" ... that's a fact that was brought out 2 pages ago on here.One is the evidence, called the "manifestation" 1 Coth 12:7 "given to every man ... then there is "the Gift of tongues" in 12:10.The reason it is "another tongue" is because a different word for "another" is used ONLY for the "gift of faith and the gift of tongues" ... and all the other 7 out of the 9 gifts in chpt. 12 uses another, another. :-? Ha. What I mean is, for all the other gifts the word "allos" is used. But only for "the gift of faith and Tongues" is another word used for "another" ,,, and that was heteros.The reason for the 2 different "anothers", was simply to show that "all have faith and if verse 7 says that "all have tongues", then Paul was trying to show, this is not your "typical type faith or typical tongues (the prayer/praise language).Allos, is "different of a another kind" and Heteros, is "different of the same kind". Tongues, the "manifestation" of Spirit Baptism is "given to all", but the "Gift of tongues of 1Co12, 14", is not. Not all are used to give a message in Tongues {that requires an "interpretation"} in the Church ... but all are given the 'manifestation' (some call tongues, "the evidence of the Baptism") to "profit" .... the Modern KJV says "to our profit" and the NIV says "common good". But whatever profits one part (person) in the Body, profits all.The 'Manifestation' given upon Baptism in the Holy Spirit, is 'for personal use' for prayer and praise 1Co 14:13-15.This "different" #G2087 - "heteros tongues", is as different as "the gift of faith" is different from the faith we all have.Anyhow, I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts here.Shalom. Annie
Ha. What I mean is, for all the other gifts the word "allos" is used. But only for "the gift of faith and Tongues" is another word used for "another" ,,, and that was heteros.Biblical Greek has two separate words for 'another'.'allos' means another of the same kind. As I might buy 'another' (allos) KJV.. You can see this in 'parallel' (another by the side) where 'another' of the same kind and direction is placed alongside the first.'heteros' on the other hand means 'another of a different kind'. As I might say "I have purchased another Bible" meaning a NIV or something 'quite different' from a KJV (just teasing the KJV -only folk here. ;-) ) We have the word 'heteros' in 'hetero-sexual' meaning different sexes. (sorry about the sordid example but I thought it was the one most folk would be most familiar with)The KJV doesn't usually distinguish between these two words but sometimes it can be quite relevant. “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.”(Gal. 1:6-7, KJV)“I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.”(Gal. 1:6-7, NKJV) where the the NKJV has translated 'heteros' as 'different' and 'allos' as 'another'.
Isn't it great though,when not using Greek to 'show off', but to show off the wonder of God's Word.The point I was making, above your post, was to back up what 'you' had ventured to say, two pages ago, where you alluded to that there were two types of tongues. I wanted to help show why that was not an 'assumption' on your part.I like to back folks up when they hit on something that's right.Thanks for putting it your own words,,, that would make it easier for the others who follow you.Happy Sunday :-)(I'm feeling better today physically, then I was yesterday. I've prayed and asked the Lord for my strength back and thank the others who have prayed for me ..)Ain't The Body of Christ, beautiful ?amen.
Thanks even more for extending on this. Wow, what a Light that is to the Scriptures..
Todd,As much as I would like to say I have a definite scripture, I don't. This is more along the lines of deductive logic. It's a culmination of many different scriptures. I can say one thing for sure, what I have seen happen in the presence of God. I am an American living in Brasil. I orginally came here on a missions trip. There was an American praying for a Brasilian and neither person knew the language of the other. The American began praying in tongues and it sort of "morphed" into Portuguese. The Brasilian was so blessed by this, he began praying in tongues. Ironically, the tongues he was speaking in sort of "morphed" into American English. After the use of an interpreter, it was determined that each of them had prophesied over the other about many things that were going on in each others lives. They had never met and spoke different languages, but God had destroyed the barrier that pride, arrogance, and sin had taken away at the Tower of Babel. I think this is in agreement with Acts 2 and what happened on the day of Pentecost. There were men from "every country under heaven " present that day, and each of them heard their own dialect. I find this hard to place in the coincidence category. Because of this, and many other wonderful works of the Holy Spirit, 3,000 souls were added to the kingdom. I think we would all agree that the Trinity is one entity but distinctly 3 separate beings within this entity. For lack of a better description, a collective consciousness. Also that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father making intercession for all of us. The love of the Father wants to restore all that the enemy has stolen from us. And the Holy Spirit is alive within every believer. The main focus of the Trinity is to use whatever means necessary to return mankind to the place Adam was before the fall.Confusion is the best weapon of the enemy. It can also be the best deterrent. Like I said in my other post, a confused enemy is a disarmed enemy. Satan is not a creator, he just imitates and distorts what God has already created. I believe this is an great example of God exercising His sovereignty in a very visible way.Again, if anyone has scripture that says anything to the contrary of what I have said, I seek the truth, not just to be right. Blessings in the Lord.
fil,Interesting points. Thanks for clarifying. I especially think pointing out the phenomena in Acts is supportive of your understanding. By the way, I went on a trip to Brazil a couple years ago and had a blast! Those people are hungry for God!
