Spirit, Soul, Body?

From the Sriptures below it could reasonably be deduced that God puts a "spirit" in us at conversion other than the Holy
Spirit that we lacked prior to conversion. Some people have held that the new believer now has body, soul and spirit whereas the nonbeliever is body and soul only. Some disagree. I'm sure this has been raised in the past on the site, but was interested in others' take.

1 Corinthians 15:45 - Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart

1 Thessalonians 5:23

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (ESV)

Ezekiel 36:25”“26

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. (ESV)

Is the "new spirit" simply the Holy Spirit given to new believers or is it something different in light of these verses? It really is the 1 Thessalonians passage that creates the question.

Thanks Brother Greg,

I really thought I had read other very respected theologians mention this also. If I'm in error about that I sincerely apologize. I left off this verse from my list and would ask if this is going down the same rabbit hole or not. I will see if there are other people you would respect as faithful expositers of the Word who posed this question. If there aren't, big mistake on my part.

1 Corinthians 14:14”“16
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. [16] Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? (ESV)

Hi Brother Greg,

I did a quick search on line and found this excerpt. There were many other links to the issue but I thought I would pass this along. It isn't a hill for me to die on so I'm glad to withdraw the question.

DICHOTOMY AND TRICHOTOMY - PART ONE
June 14, 2016 | By: Sam Storms

All Christians agree that God created us as a material (or physical) and immaterial (or spiritual) unity. But not all agree on the nature of the immaterial. Some argue that the immaterial dimension in human nature is divided into two distinct and separate faculties: soul and spirit. They are thus called Trichotomists: the three "parts” or "faculties” being the body, the soul, and the spirit. Others believe that the immaterial dimension cannot be so easily subdivided in this way. The soul, spirit, heart, mind, will, and affections are but different expressions for the variety of functions of the singular spiritual aspect of human nature. They are thus called Dichotomists.

Is Trichotomy a legitimate evangelical option? Yes. There is nothing inherently heretical or dangerous in understanding human nature as comprised of three faculties: body, soul, and spirit. There is enough ambiguity in certain biblical texts to allow for trichotomy. But is it the most likely or the most probable interpretation of the many biblical texts and terms noted below? In my opinion, no.

Hi again Greg, you really scared me with the post because the idea of coming up with something "new" is abhorent to me. I honestly tremble at His word. Here's a simple article from a simple website outlining the issue I tried to present:

From Gotquestions:

Those who believe that human nature is a trichotomy typically believe the following: the physical body is what connects us with the physical world around us, the soul is the essence of our being, and the spirit is what connects us with God. This is why the unsaved can be said to be spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13), while they are very much physically and "soulishly” alive. Those who believe that human nature is a dichotomy would have the same understanding of the body but would view the spirit as the part of the soul that connects with God. So, the question of dichotomy vs. trichotomy is essentially whether the soul and spirit are different aspects of the immaterial human nature, or if the spirit is simply a part of the soul, with the soul being the whole immaterial part of the human nature.

Trichotomy vs. dichotomy of man””which view is correct? It would seem that it is unwise to be dogmatic. Both theories are biblically plausible. Neither interpretation is heretical. This is perhaps an issue we are unable to fully grasp with our finite human minds. What we can be certain of is that the human nature is comprised of a body, a soul, and a spirit. Whether the soul and spirit are one, or are somehow distinct, is not an issue God chose to make abundantly clear in His Word. Whether you believe in a dichotomy or trichotomy, offer your body as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1), thank God for saving your soul (1 Peter 1:9), and worship God in spirit and truth (John 4:23”“24).

No problem Greg,

For those who believe in the idea that we are body, soul and spirit as a man, the question is were we born that way or is the "spirit" aspect of our nature part of the "new nature" or "new creation" or "new man" that happens for us at conversion. Is that "spirit life" one thing that we were lacking as a man "spiritually dead in trespass and sin"

In the Hebrew passage, it says that the Word divides soul and spirit like bone and marrow. In the physical metaphor of bone and marrow, the spiritual distinction between soul and spirit seems to come to some clarity. The bone ( soul ) lacks the life of "marrow". Thus, when we are made "alive in Christ", an argument can reasonably be made that the marrow of life has been restored by God to the man's nature thus making him truly new.

Brother Robert,
Watchman Nee has written a book, "The Spiritual Man”, which goes into much detail on spirit, soul, and body.

Even a unregenerate man has a spirit, but that spirit is seperated or dead to God. At the new birth, the spirit of man receives the life of God By the Holy Spirit, and that Man is born again, and now the Spirit of God is living in him.

THE FUNCTIONS OF THE SPIRIT,
THE SOUL, AND THE BODY
By Watchman Nee
Man is composed of two independent kinds of material: spirit and body. When the spirit entered the body of dust, the soul was produced. It is impossible for the spirit to control the body directly. Hence, it requires a medium. This medium is the soul, which was produced when the spirit touched the body.

The spirit mingled with the body and brought forth the soul. As such, man became a living soul. Hence, the soul is the result of the union between the spirit and the body; it is the personality of a man.

The body is the outer shell of the soul, and the soul is the outer shell of the spirit. Before man fell, it was the spirit that controlled his entire being. When the spirit wants to do something, it communicates this to the soul, and the soul motivates the body to obey the command of the spirit. This is the meaning of the soul as the medium. Luke 1:46-47 says, "My soul magnifies [present tense] the Lord, and my spirit has exulted [perfect tense] in God my Savior." The spirit must first exult, before the soul can magnify the Lord. The spirit first communicates the exultation to the soul, then the soul communicates to the body.

The body is the "world-consciousness," the soul is the "self-consciousness," and the spirit is the "God-consciousness." There are five organs in the body, which afford man the five senses. This physical body enables man to communicate with the physical world. This is why it is called the "world- consciousness." The soul includes that part known as man’s intellect, which helps to make man’s existence possible. The part of love generates affections toward other human beings or objects. The part that can be aroused is the part that originates from the consciousness. All these are parts of the man himself; they form the personality of man. Hence, they are called the "self-consciousness." The spirit is the part with which man communicates with God. With this part, man worships God, serves Him, and understands his relationship with God. Hence, it is called the "God-consciousness."

The spirit has knowledge, but this knowledge is different from the knowledge of the mind. Because the spirit is different from the mind, only a spiritual man can know himself. First Corinthians 2:11 says, "For who among men knows the things of man, except the spirit of man which is in him?" Although man knows things through the mind, his mind is actually not trustworthy and cannot know "the things of man." The mind may have knowledge, but only by man’s spirit can he know the things of man and know himself. Hence, God’s Word states the fact: "For who..knows the things of man, except the spirit." This spirit is the part with which man fellowships with God. "But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding" (Job 32:8). "The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly" (Prov. 20:27). The spirit of man is the part with which man fellowships with God.

The soul can be stimulated, and it can be disquieted (Psa. 42:5). It can feel sorrowful (Matt. 26:38). In short, the soul is everything that the personality entails. Hence, we can say that the soul is the personality. Many portions in the Bible do not call man a man, but a soul. For example, when the house of Jacob went down to Egypt, there were seventy people (Gen. 46:27). But the Bible says, "All the souls...were threescore and six" (Gen. 46:26).

The body is like a servant; it is under man’s control.

The soul is the meeting point; here the spirit and the body join. Man communicates with the spiritual realm through the spirit. He communicates with the world of senses through the body. The soul is in between. On the one hand, it communicates with the spiritual realm through the spirit, and on the other hand, it communicates with the physical world through the body.

The soul is in between the spirit and the body; it binds the spirit and the body together as one. The spirit rules over the body through the soul and subjects it under God’s power. The body can induce the spirit to love the world through the soul.

In conclusion, the soul is the source of the personality; man’s judgment, intellect, and love all are of the soul. The spirit is the part with which man communicates with the spiritual realm. The body is the part with which man communicates with the physical realm. The soul is in the middle of these two parts. It exercises its judgment to determine if the spiritual realm is to rule or if the physical realm is to rule. Sometimes the soul rules through its intellect and stimulations; this becomes the rule of the psychological world. Unless the soul yields its rule to the spirit, the spirit cannot rule. Hence, the soul has to authorize the spirit to rule before the latter can rule over the soul and the body. The reason for this is that the soul is the origin of the personality.

(Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 1) Vol. 01: The Christian Life and Warfare, Chapter 5, by Watchman Nee)

Thanks Mike, I've read that before. I want to ask you a sincere question. I struggle with Nee's handling of spiritual things like this sometimes. I like his writings a lot generally, but here he seems more philosophical than Biblical. That doesn't make him wrong in his conclusions but I struggle with lack of Scripture on this from him.

Mike, do you have any thoughts on the bone and marrow analogy from Scripture ? When I read that passage in the context of this issue, I immediately thought of the Ezekiel passage where the prophet is commanded to 'breath" upon the dry bones of the Israelites. Is that a bridge too far in suing Scripture to interpret spirit and soul and what the
spiritually dead man lacks ?

ADD: Mike, another thought for you to respond to on the question. When God said to Adam, "On the day you eat of the fruit, you shall surely die" is it possible that God was speaking of two deaths? The moment Adam ate he died spiritually ( no more marrow in the soul ) and would eventually hundreds of years later die physically?

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

Brother Robert,
I believe that the dividing of the joints and marrow refers to the High Priest in the Old Testsment that would take his sharp knife and knew precisely how to divide the sacrifice. Our High Priest, the Lord Jesus, who is the living Word of God divides asunder the soul and spirit which are often mixed. We must learn how to discern the difference between the soulical and the spiritual.

When man sin, he died spiritually, but his physical death occurred hundreds of years later. I am not sure how this relates to the joints and the marrow.

Interesting topic Robert,

I have always pondered how Jesus told us "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Where is your spirit as only body and soul are mentioned being in hell?

Also on the cross Jesus cried out "Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit.” What about soul? Also Stephen when being stoned prayed "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” yet again no mention of soul.

So what my question would be is, where is the spirit of those that go to hell? Did they ever receive one? And those that go to heaven, what becomes of their souls? Is there at conversion a putting in of one and a removal of another?

Blessings Steve

HI Mike,

The marrow is what's inside the bone. Physiologically, it is where the physical "life" of the body is. Bone by itself is not alive. Bone without marrow is dead. So, a soul without spirit life is spiritually dead to God.

I don't think the High Priest cut out the marrow from the bone in the sacrifice but maybe it happened. You might know more about that system than I and I would certainly like to know if that is what happened.

What if we are body and soul at birth. But no spirit. That was the inheritance from Adam. A man without spirit cannot commune with God who is spirit. Thus, it is a separation from God but in a dramatic spiritual sense.

We then would have a soul that is alive in one sense but dead spiritually? What if the soul has to be "quickened" made alive as the old believers use to refer to it. What if that quickening is the giving of spirit? I know we get the Holy Spirit but what if we are "made alive" by new birth or as the New Covenant language from Ezekiel 36:26 says, we are given a "new spirit" ?

That was my point about what happened at the Fall. What if Adam experienced spiritual death to his spirit but retained a soul?

I'm asking questions like this because if the answers to my questions are yes, we were born without a spirit, then the wording of a lot of other passages start to make logically connected sense. For example, we have been made alive, we have a new nature and new life. We were spiritually dead. We are now alive to God and able commune spirit to spirit.

Also, with respect to our sins prior to conversion, they all deal with thoughts, deeds and desires. All connected to the soul.

I realize we get the Holy Spirit and if that is what we receive that represents "life", then I'm totally fine with that. No agenda. Just trying to connect dots in Scripture that make sense.

Finally, we can make a lot of sense with this line of understanding of how our spirit can be one spirit with the Lord. And the Corinthian passage about praying, speaking and singing in our spirit and not with our mind can make a great deal of sense. Otherwise, we are left with the mind of the soul being disconnected with the soul itself when we pray in the spirit. That just doesn't make sense to me at all.

Thanks for your response and consideration Mike.

Steve asked:

"So what my question would be is, where is the spirit of those that go to hell? Did they ever receive one? And those that go to heaven, what becomes of their souls? Is there at conversion a putting in of one and a removal of another?"

Steve, the answer all depends on where one comes out on the question originally posed.

Brother Robert,

It is very clear from scripture that the First Man Adam had a spirit. God created the body of Adam out of the dust of the earth. God breathed the breath of life into Adam (spirit), and Man became a living soul.

When Man sinned, spiritual death occurred, which means separation from God. Man still possessed a spirit, but he could no longer communicate with God.
Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins to reconcile us back to God.

Mike,

That is certainly possible. What would lead you to conclude Adam retained spiritual life after the Fall?

I agree that this is an interesting topic. There have been discussions in the past on this too.

I remember hearing one preacher (although I cannot remember who) talk about a difference between soulish worship and spiritual worship. He described soulish worship as being emotional whereas spiritual music is, well, spiritually communal.

Robert,

God told Adam that if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he would die. Sin brought spiritual death to Adam.

Adam died spiritually after he sinned, but his spirit did not cease to exist.

"I remember hearing one preacher (although I cannot remember who) talk about a difference between soulish worship and spiritual worship. He described soulish worship as being emotional whereas spiritual music is, well, spiritually communal.”

Chris,

The emotions are part of the soul of man. If we are led by our emotions then we can easily be deceived.

God is looking for true worshippers that will worship Him in Spirit and in truth. True worship will often affect our emotions. We are commanded to love God with our whole being, spirit, soul, and body.

"YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
(Luke 10:27)

Thanks Mike,

God said to Adam that "on the day" you eat of the tree you shall surely die. Now we know that Adam did not physically die on that day. We also agree that Adam was separated from God when he was forced to leave the Garden in a physical way. The question is, did Adam die spiritually "on that day", a far worse death than physical death of course, when he ate the fruit? We know that to commune with God we must have a spirit because God says He is spirit. This takes us back to Steve's question. If the spirit Adam was born with is true spiritual life that could be one with with God. then it can't be evil. So, when, as you suggest, those who are born with that same spiritual life are consigned to Hell by God for unbelief, what happens to that spiritual life ? Is the spirit life which is God's spiritual life, corrupt? Maybe that is getting at the question of what is the "spirit" we are born with?

Here's the thing, when God says that He makes us "alive" in Christ, He obviously isn't talking about physical life. We are already alive in that sense when we come to Christ. It seems necessary then that God is talking about making us spiritually alive in Christ and so in what sense is our spirit that we had before conversion made alive?

To me, it seems to be a strong argument that we must have been dead in the spirit prior to God making us alive in spirit when we came to Jesus. Otherwise, what do you see happening of us when God makes us alive? Clearly, it is an eternal life but is it only our previous life made eternal or is it new life that we possess AND becomes truly a part of our nature?

Mike, I'm also asking for you to graciously share the Scriptures that form the conclusions you are setting forth. I don't want you to have to defend anything, I just want to understand the Biblical passages that you have used and relied on to form the conclusion that you've come to. I lean in one direction but I definitely have not come to a final conclusion so the foundations for your conclusion would be valuable to me personally. Obviously, you have made final conclusions on this and knowing the basis would be most helpful.

2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
(Ephesians 2:1)

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
(1 Corinthians 15:22)

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, and see, the new has come!” (2 Cor. 5:17)

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
(John 5:24)

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Yemust be born again. (John 3:5-7).

"Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeneness...”

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4:24

Conclusion: humans are spirit beings housed in a corporeal body.

Robert, the spiritual death that Adam experienced at the Fall just means that his spirit had no further relationship or connection to God anymore. It does not mean that his spirit was annihilated. If you want a scripture, look at Proverbs 20:27 - The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord. Nobody living in the Old Testament was born again or had spiritual life in their spirit yet they did have a functioning spirit. While they could not have spiritual life with God in the sense of having the Holy Spirit dwell in them, God could choose to give revelation to certain chosen ones through the spirit. And look at all the occult activity of evil spirits. They can connect with or even inhabit a person's spirit who opens themselves up to their influence. And consider what happens when a person becomes born again. God's Holy Spirit comes to dwell in their spirit. It's not like they don't have a spirit and when they get saved the Holy Spirit is now their spirit.

-Daniel

Thanks Mike. The Scriptures you provided relate to man after being made alive which was the genesis of my question. for what is true of man before being made alive.

So, we know something is made alive at conversion. I was just trying to figure out if what was dead and then made alive was the spirit of a man.

If it isn’t the spirit of a man then certainly something was dead that had to be made alive again. Jesus said the time is now that men will worship Him in Spirit and truth and Philippians says we worship in Spirit and truth.

Is that new advent of true worship in spirit the Holy Spirit only. Or does it include our spirit revived? Paul says we can pray in our spirit but our mind is unfruitful.

So, the original question for those who believe we have body, soul and spirit and not just body and soul, is it the spirit we have that is "made alive” in Christ? Is it the spirit that is dead in trespass and sin?

Robert, the spirit was put into man originally for the function of having communion, fellowship and connection with God. After the fall that functionality was severed and so the spirit is considered dead or to be more accurate and explanatory about it, the spirit is dead TO GOD. Just as when a person dies, their spirit leaves the body and so the spirit no longer has a relationship to the body. Fallen people have spirits that can function and engage with fallen spirits but not the Holy Spirit until and unless they become born again. So in the Bible when you read about someone who is dead in sin or has a dead spirit, it means that the person's spirit is dead to God because they have not received the life giving Holy Spirit from God yet.

-Daniel

Hi Daniel. Thanks for responding. I understand completely your thinking on this. What you say could absolutely be true. I’m just trying to find out how you and anybody else reaches their conclusion from Scripture. My struggle is that the Scripture says dead and made alive. Clearly the Spirit could have said we are "separated” from God because of sin and "reunited” with God spiritually. In fact, the Bible uses those terms elsewhere in differing contexts. Using terms like dead and alive though have a different ordinary meaning.

Historically, most commentators have said that Adam died spiritually when he fell.

I understand Robert your wanting to get precise answers from the Bible. However, most all of the Bible is written as a narrative. The closest thing we have to systematic theology is found in the books of Romans and Ephesians. So we have to "interpret" scripture to come to truth and this is why there are various doctrines floating around on a particular subject. Even earnest Bible scholars using good exegesis and the counsel of the entire Word of God can have differing conclusions on questions concerning various topics. You've asked for Bible proof on other topics in other threads and I feel your concern. Many answers are clear cut in the Bible and some are not. I'm kind of curious where you are going on this spirit is dead topic. We've already established it doesn't mean annihilated. I would also point you to the parable of the prodigal son. After he came back to his father, the father said, "This son of mine though he was dead is now alive". He wasn't actually physically dead but he was as good as dead to the father because he was cut off from him. See?

Thanks Daniel.

The thing that started the thread was simply because I was reading in 1 Thessalonians in my yearly reading plan and the passage about body, soul and spirit came up. I just started meditating on its meaning and tried to again come to an understanding by connecting the words and thoughts in that passage with other texts in the Bible. I try to come to an understanding of Him and His ways by using Bible texts with other Bible texts that speak to the same issue and see if a theme starts to emerge. Nothing new to that method. I rely far less solely on others' conclusions. I have taken in a ton of sermons, books and commentaries but I stopped using those as a basis for my conclusions a long time ago. I enjoy and get a lot out of those resources still, but I far more enjoy sitting with a Bible and God to have Him speak into my questions on texts. This particular text, however, has eluded me for a clear and final meaning as has the text I quoted about being "made alive in Christ".

As for establishing the fact that our spirit isn't annihilated, I don't think I would go as far as you have in what has been stated for far. I don't think we have even established for a fact that Adam had a
spirit ( not soul which is clear from Scripture). We've expressed conclusions but establishing that is a stretch.
Far too many people with more maturity than me haven't gotten there on this issue.

Each of us can express our own personal conclusions about topics and that is good as far as it goes. I doubt anyone is going to accept what I conclude about a topic unless I provide my support for the conclusion and that was all I was pressing for from others. Nor would or should anyone accept a position or conclusion merely because a majority of commentators on the forum hold a particular opinion.
Nothing "becomes true" merely because a majority hold to it. Majority opinions have some weight but not enough.

The way I learn in conversations is to ask a question, listen to answers, probe with additional questions to try to get at the underlying assumptions and support for those answers and then try to mutually arrive at an answer that brings a consensus or disagreement. I don't usually learn much if all I all I seek are other people's conclusions, as valid or invalid as they may be. Iron sharpens iron not by only by trading conclusions but also
by challenging assumptions and urging people to think through their own reasons for coming to particular conclusions.

I enjoy finding answers and using the process of searching the Scriptures as the primary means of finding those answers and not just expressing conclusions. I love to hear how God is speaking on a spiritual matter. The purpose of the thread was that I had a question I still haven't answered conclusively for myself yet and wanted to see if other learned believers had arrived at their own conclusion and to understand how they got there.

Thanks for the questions Daniel.

Guys,

Perhaps there is another way to approach the question.

One day, after we die or are taken up, the Bible says our earthly bodies will be replaced with perfect resurrected bodies.

Likewise, when we are glorified in that day, the sanctification process of bringing our minds, wills and affections into their consummated glory will be completed and perfected.

What about the "spirit"? Is it appropriate to just conclude or more rightly assume that will happen at death as well?

Or, can we find reason to conclude from Scripture that the spirit that we have at conversion has been implanted by God and is "divine" or supernatural at the time of its provision by God? Is that a major part of what it means for us to be born again? Are we being transformed from the inside out starting with the seed of God being implanted in our souls, the inception of life at the center of our being at the time new birth occurs?

If we view our conversion in major part as the union of our spirit with the Spirit of God in a true union and joining supernaturally together as "one spirit" with the Lord and not just a "relationship" of one entity with another, then that foundation has significant impact on who we are in Christ as children of God . The Bible makes the self same comparison as God relates that marriage is a picture of this supernatural union where two become one.

If that way of thinking is accurate and I think Scripture is clear about that, then it begs the question, how can
the Holy Spirit be joined truly as one with an unholy spirit of man? Is the spirit of man the place where the Holy Spirit of God dwells and lives and thus is it of necessity required to be supernatural in order for that union with the Holy Spirit to occur and be sustained?

Robert said:

As for establishing the fact that our spirit isn't annihilated, I don't think I would go as far as you have in what has been stated for far.

What about Proverbs 20:27?

The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

You can't dismiss this verse which indicates that we have a spirit that has some functionality. Or do you?

What you said about the Holy Spirit coming into our spirit and making our spirit "alive" I totally agree with.
I understand this to mean that the life of God comes to inhabit our spirit and it is now "alive" and functions as it was originally intended. We now have the possibility of being ruled by our indwelt spirit instead of our darkened mind.

-Daniel

Gen 7:21 - All flesh that [fn]moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind;
7:22 - of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.

Daniel, Here are two verses using the same word "spirit” as the Proverbs verse you suggested. Apparently animals have a spirit. I wouldn’t think that Paul is referring to this natural animal spirit when he says I pray in my spirit nor do I think that’s the "spirit” that is spoken of when we are said to be "one spirit” with the Lord.

I notice that the verse you quoted about animals doesn't refer to the spirit of the animal but instead refers to "nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life". In Hebrew the word for wind and spirit is the same and in this verse you see it mentions breath right before spirit so this use of spirit is talking about the "wind of life" that occupies breathing animals. They stop breathing and they die. It isn't implying that dumb animals have a spirit like humans do. This is a different use of the Hebrew word "spirit". Context is everything.

-Daniel

Paul also wrote in 1 Corinthians that there are different types of life and each has it's own glory. Each created being has the breath "ruach" of life but not all the same type (or glory) of life.

So Moses wrote; And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation? (Numbers 16:22)

And in Job we find; In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath[Ruach] of all mankind. (Job 12:10)

Mankind is created in the image of God and this is what makes him so unique on our universe of created beings. This is what gives human life such great value and why each person deserves respect and love, regardless of the many differences. Take this away and then mankind is on the same level as the beasts and we are on the same level as the evolutionist concerning the value of human life.

In Christ,

I have found that it is good to read after men of God to get help with our questions concerning scripture, but it is better to go to God with our questions and allow the Holy Spirit to teach us, and give us revelation and light on any biblical topic.

That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. That which i is born of the flesh, is flesh. Fleshly, earthly. Not spirit. Thanks Rhomphaem. Since we need new birth of spirit according to Jesus, it seems like something that did not exist spiritually must be born of the Spirit so in some real meaningful sense we lacked "spirit” prior to conversion.

You said,
"Even so Adam did not possess the life of God before his fall."

Question:
So what was the source and nature of this life that Adam had before the fall? Did God give Adam a life of his own, Adam's own life, a "self" life?

I would say that God was the source of Adam’s life before the fall and this that was said about Israel was also true regarding Adam:

Jer. 2:13 ”“
For My people have committed two evils:
They have forsaken Me,
The fountain of living waters,
To hew for themselves cisterns,
Broken cisterns
That can hold no water.

Ps. 36:9 --
For with You is the fountain of life;
In Your light we see light.

Some thoughts in Genesis:

"Then the Lord God formed man of the dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living SOUL."

After the fall, "The Lord God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of LIFE, and eat and live forever"... So He stationed the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned in every direction, to guard the way to the tree of LIFE."

Why did God guard the tree of LIFE?
I think because it was ETERNAL Life, and if man had eaten from it in his fallen state, he would have lived ETERNALLY in that fallen state. If that is true, then man could not have previously eaten from that tree or he would have lived eternally in his perfect state having ETERNAL LIFE in that state.
I think the Tree of Life is a type of Christ who is LIFE ETERNAL and those who eat Him live forever in a perfect state.
💜
Mary

Hi Robert,

Thank you for responding to my question.

God bless.

Hi Robert,

Thanks for starting this thread.

Good food for thought.

Blessings.

Hi Daniel,

Robert posted this scripture:

Gen 7:21 - All flesh that [fn]moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind;
7:22 - of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.

You said:
"I notice that the verse you quoted about animals doesn't refer to the spirit of the animal but instead refers to "nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life". In Hebrew the word for wind and spirit is the same and in this verse you see it mentions breath right before spirit so this use of spirit is talking about the "wind of life" that occupies breathing animals. They stop breathing and they die. It isn't implying that dumb animals have a spirit like humans do. This is a different use of the Hebrew word "spirit". Context is everything.”

My question:

Notice that Gen. 7:21-22 includes "and all mankind”. After the fall man retained his vastly superior intellect but in LIFE itself could man’s life have fallen to the level of animal life so that just like the animals,

Gen. 3:19 ”“
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.

Blessings.

Hi Ron,

You wrote:
"Mankind is created in the image of God and this is what makes him so unique on our universe of created beings…………Take this away and then mankind is on the same level as the beasts……………”

My question:
Was Adam after his fall still in the image of God?

Blessings.

Jade,

Gen 7:21 The "all mankind" in this verse just means everyone on Earth perished in the Flood just like all other animals. It doesn't mean we are identical in nature with animals.

When God created Adam, Adam had a spirit whose function was to commune and interact with God and also rule his soul. When Adam fell, his connection with God was severed but he still retained a spirit however his spirit fell into disuse because now Adam and Eve were filled with KNOWLEDGE (of good and evil) so now they were ruled by the soul. They never received life in their spirits but we can, now that salvation through new birth in Jesus is available.

-Daniel

Was Adam after his fall still in the image of God?

Indeed he still bears the image even after the fall, he is still able to have communion with God through Jesus Christ our Lord. It is the fact that mankind is made in God's image that makes him human and unique among created beings. If mankind lost that image he would cease to be human. It is because he retains this image, though fallen, that Christ considered him worthy of redemption.

This is an important point, not just in theology but also in how we practically value human life.

In Christ,

Hi Daniel,

Don't have time now. Will reply later.

Hi Ron,

If Adam after the fall still bore the image of God, then if one looked at Adam one would still see a reflection of the nature, holiness, life and glory of God.

But look at fallen man. He is everything that God is NOT.

It is Satan’s lie that fallen man will be "like God” (Gen. 3:5).

Also, we do not value FALLEN human life.

Phil. 3:8 ”“
More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,

Men need to be saved so that their fallen human life will be done away with and they will be filled with the holy, glorious, incorruptible and indestructible life of God and once again be in the image of God through Jesus Christ.

ADD:
We value men and seek to save them through Christ but their fallen life is garbage.

Re:
The image of God,...

Adam was made in the image of God,....

But what does it mean by being made in the image of God ?

What is the image of God ?

*God’ image is all His attributes,...
* The Word says , God is invisible,... He is Spirit
*God is The Word, and The Spirit of The Word

So , this is the image that was created in Adam....The very ‘Life’ of God.

* The first Adam was tempted, and fell,.. (failed)
* The second Adam was tempted, but did not surcumb to the temptation,.. never sinned,..
(Jesus: The true image of the invisible God)

* The Tree of Life:
Gen.3:24,
"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”

Two things here to consider,
(1) the flaming sword,... which I believe is *The Word of God, that keeps
(2) ‘the way’,.. of The Tree of Life””

Jesus is The Tree of Life

There is ONLY one ‘way’ to ‘the Tree of Life

Jesus said, "I Am the door”.....
..... through The Blood of Jesus,...

So now, through The Blood of Jesus, we can eat of that ‘Tree of Life’,.. and live forever.

* Jesus is ‘The Tree of Life

* The Bread of Life,...

Jn.6:48,50,51,..
" I am that bread of life.”

"This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die."

" Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.”

54 "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life;”

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

Must we continue to eat of this Bread, in order to have ‘Life’,.. and Life more abundantly?
* but, what is this ‘Bread’ ?

* does it come from ‘The Tree of Life’ ?

Just some thoughts,

””””””””””””♥️
elizabeth

Hi Daniel,

I am not saying that man has the same nature as animals. I am suggesting that after Adam’s fall, man’s life fell to the same level as that of the animals………just dust and returns to dust.

This is the account of man’s creation:

Gen. 2:7 (KJV) ”“
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

MY VIEW

I see 2 main parts in the man God created:

(1) Dust of the ground

This is the earthly/creaturely part of man that is similar with animals with this major difference:

Animals have a physical body/life governed by instinct.

Man has a physical body/life that he can live independently by "flesh” .

(2) God’s breath of life

Animals do not have this.

God’s breath of life in man gives man God’s own life and makes him into the image of God. So long as Adam was living out of God’s life, he was above his "flesh” and was not ruled by it.

On the day that Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he lost the life of God (and the image of God) in him and in losing the only true life, he died. When this happened, he fell into the earthly/creaturely part of him and became led by "flesh”. His physical and "fleshly” life did not end immediately but over time degenerated and decayed till he returned to dust.

I don’t see a reference to man’s spirit in this creation account.

ADD:

Adam would have ceased to exist forever but God moved immediately to save Adam by giving the seed of the woman.

Thanks Jade for your input. While Adam's fall did make him more creaturely I would not say that he fell to the level of dumb animals like cattle, etc. Fallen humanity is capable of making informed, ethical, and loving decisions which is not to say that they necessarily will act in these ways while dumb animals' ability in this area is almost nil.

We know from several OT scriptures that humans have a spirit albeit a spirit that is atrophied because man relies on his reasoning and thinking mind almost exclusively.

Your last comment is puzzling. You said, "Adam would have ceased to exist forever but God moved immediately to save Adam by giving the seed of the woman." I could agree with your statement if you had said "humanity" instead of Adam in this sentence. And God did not immediately give the seed of the woman (Jesus). He came thousands of years after Adam had died.

Add: And we know that not all of humanity will be saved by the seed of the woman. Only those who trust and submit to Him.

-Daniel

This discussion of spirit, soul, and body is needful not only for information so that we would get a better understanding of the functions of each, but also that we would learn to discern the difference of each in our walk with the Lord.

Most of us know what it means to be of the flesh, and to be controlled by our bodies, so we avoid walking after the flesh, and our desire is to please God and to do His will.

God desires for us to be led by the Spirit of God. " For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." (Romans 8:14).

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16).

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; (1 Corinthians 6:19).

So we know that the Holy Spirit is living inside every one of us that have been born of the Spirit, and He is dwelling on the inside of us to lead us into all of the truth.

The Word of God says that "the spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly." (Proverbs 20:27)

The Holy Spirit is working and communicating through the spirit of man.
"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17).

So it is of vital importance that we know and understand the difference between soul and spirit, so that we will be governed by the Holy Spirit through our inner man.

We also need to learn the functions of the soul (mind, will, and emotions). Our will is of extreme importance because God will never override our will, but we have been given the choice to choose God's will submitting ourselves to do His will or to do our own will.

I praise God for the writings of Brother Watchman Nee, for he has been an instrument of God for my personal spiritual growth in the Lord.

This teaching by Derek Prince would be very helpful as we continue in this discussion of spirit, soul, and body.

Biblical View of the Origin and Nature of Man- Derek Prince

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-cpT3LrM6Y

Daniel,

(1)

"While Adam's fall did make him more creaturely I would not say that he fell to the level of dumb animals like cattle, etc.”

Please read all my posts again. I did not say that Adam fell to the level of dumb animals. I said his life fell to the level of the life of animals so that like them he is dust and returns to dust.

(2)

"And God did not immediately give the seed of the woman (Jesus).”

The Word was already spoken.

Ps. 33:9 ”“
For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast.

(3)

"I could agree with your statement if you had said "humanity" instead of Adam in this sentence.”

Adam was the head of his race so when I said "Adam” I was referring to Adam and all his descendants. But if you prefer, I will say "humanity” instead of "Adam”.

(4)

"And we know that not all of humanity will be saved by the seed of the woman.”

Do we really know??

Christ is the Great Intercessor. Will He who died to save ALL men not intercede for ALL men to be saved?

Ps. 2:8 ”“
Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

It only requires one word from the Lord Jesus to His Father and every man will be His.

(5)

"Only those who trust and submit to Him.”

Of course.

Is the Lord unable to bring all men to repentance and to trust and submit to him?

If Adam after the fall still bore the image of God, then if one looked at Adam one would still see a reflection of the nature, holiness, life and glory of God.

Certainly there is still a reflection, not in the pantheistic sense that creation is an extension of the essence of God; but that a God who is personal on the order of the Trinity created mankind in His image. So, being made in His image mankind is still essentially personal.

Before anything was created there was love and communication between the Godhead. Following on from that the Bible states that this personal God created man in His image, so personality is intrinsic to man's being when he was first created and also now. The fact that man is lost and under God's judgment does not mean that he is garbage. The Bible states that there is something great about mankind in that he is personal and can know God personally.

As Elibeth pointed out, I believe that the Tree of Life has importance in this discussion. When Adam was created he was not complete; through a series of choices God intended that he would eat of the Tree of Life. Though man is now fallen God still intends this same thing for us.

In Christ,

The problem with man eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is that man has rebelled against God, declared his independence from God, and instead of putting his trust in God, he now makes a way for himself, and this is what is at the core of secular humanism and new age . Man has become his own god.

In other words, we are worldly. We have an enemy of God ruling over us. Praise God for Jesus Christ our new birthed in us God of all creation and Savior of all that are now becoming Heavenly new creations in Christ. How can we all give enough thanks to the One who gave His Life for us.
That is all I want; some day to be able to say Jesus I Love you and Thank You for your life birthed in me and He can accept it as complete and true.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Jade,

You seem to be pushing for something not found throughout God's Word, that is, that ALL will eventually submit to Christ and be saved. Where do you get this from as the plain reading of scripture indicates the opposite?

What, for example, do you do with the Parable of the Tares (Weeds) explained below by Jesus?

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the
house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain
to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good
seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world,
and the good seed stands for the people of the
kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil
one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil.
The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters
are angels.
40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in
the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The
Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will
weed out of his kingdom everything that causes
sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them
into the blazing furnace, where there will be
weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous
will shine like the sun in the kingdom of
their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear

Hi Robert,

Thanks for your response.

May I ask this and receive a straightforward, clear and simple answer that children can understand, please?
From anyone who contributes here

In light of this parable and the consistent teaching of scripture:

Will there be the righteous and the unrighteous at the end of the age?
Will some people be saved and many not?
Are the seeds sown by the enemy talking about unsaved (wicked) people and will they ultimately perish?
What will be burned as tares at the end of the age (if not the wicked)?

Thanks,

StirItUp, Scripture is clear about how God sees people. These are obviously very disturbing texts to many people, including myself. He loves all, but we need to see His black and white view of the world in the right light.

The one who commits sin is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. -- 1 John 3:8 (CSB)

Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because his seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God -- 1 John 3:9 (CSB)

This is how God’s children and the devil’s children become obvious. Whoever does not do what is right is not of God, especially the one who does not love his brother or sister. -- 1 John 3:10 (CSB)

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, because I came from God and I am here. For I didn’t come on my own, but he sent me. Why don’t you understand what I say? Because you cannot listen to my word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. -- John 8:42-44 (CSB)

He replied: "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man; the field is the world; and the good seed ”” these are the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the children of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. Therefore, just as the weeds are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom all who cause sin and those guilty of lawlessness. They will throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s kingdom. Let anyone who has ears listen. -- Matthew 13:37-43 (CSB)

Hi William,

Let us leave the Parable of the Tares aside for the moment.

You wrote:
"You seem to be pushing for something not found throughout God's Word, that is, that ALL will eventually submit to Christ and be saved. Where do you get this from as the plain reading of scripture indicates the opposite?”

Can you give SCRIPTURAL refutations of my posts?

Hi Ron,

Will think about what you wrote and give a reply.

The Sydney New Year Fireworks will start soon.

Wishing all a blessed New Year in Christ.

Hi Robert,

You said:
"He loves all, but we need to see His black and white view of the world in the right light.”

Thought:

God gave a glorious rainbow with the full spectrum of beautiful colours.

Gen. 9:8-17 (NASB) ”“
Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying, "Now behold, I Myself do establish My covenant with you, and with your descendants after you; and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth.
I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth.”
God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all successive generations; I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth. It shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow will be seen in the cloud, and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.”
And God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth.”

Rev. 4:2-3 ”“
Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance.

Robert,

Scripture:

Matt. 13:37-43 (NASB) ”“
And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

John 8:44 ”“
You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Rom. 11:26,28 ”“
and so all Israel will be saved………from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

Question:

Can the Jews be children of the devil and God’s beloved at the same time?

As children of the devil, surely they are the tares that will be gathered up and burned with fire?

Yet they will be saved because they are God’s beloved.

Will they be burned and through fire become the righteous that will shine forth as the sun?

Note:

God is God of both Jews and Gentiles.

Rom. 3:29 ”“
Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

And God’s covenant with Abraham covers all mankind.

Gen. 12:3 (CSB) ”“
…………and all the peoples on earth will be blessed through you.

Also, Gen. 22:18, 26:4, 28:14.

Hi Jade,

I did not read all the previous posts and don't need to to ask my question as this is something I have picked up in general over the last few posts.

The most famous scripture of all: John 3 16 onwards:"For God so loved the world He have His only begotten Son so that all who believe in Him should receive the gift of eternal life. They that believe will be saved, they who do not believe are already condemned..."

In my humanity, I also would like to think that ALL souls will be saved, that ALL would love God and His Christ
BUT from scriptural evidence as well as historical evidence, is this true?
This is an overused example however for lack of a better: Will Hitler and all the evil men before him, be saved?
If so, on what basis?
They did not love God or His Christ while living as far as we know so what will change when they stand before the judgement seat of Christ?

//This is an overused example however for lack of a better: Will Hitler and all the evil men before him, be saved?
If so, on what basis?
They did not love God or His Christ while living as far as we know so what will change when they stand before the judgement seat of Christ?//

A proponent of Universal Reconciliation would say that post-mortem repentance is possible and the purpose of hell is remedial to bring all souls, ultimately, to repentance. For a resource that answers every objection you can check out tentmaker.org. Obviously you can give as much or as little credence to their arguments as you wish.

Let us keep to what the Bible itself says.

I do not know what tentmaker.org teaches and hope this discussion does not deteriorate into a squabble over their teaching.

Hi William,

I have been rather busy.

Will give you and Ron a reply soon.

Blessings

//I do not know what tentmaker.org teaches and hope this discussion does not deteriorate into a squabble over their teaching.//

Greg does not want the matter discussed here which is why I pointed to the website.

God moves and acts according to His covenants

Ezek. 17:24 ”“
I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will perform it.

God remembers His covenants.

Ps. 106:43-46 ”“
Many times He would deliver them;
They, however, were rebellious in their counsel,
And so sank down in their iniquity.
Nevertheless He looked upon their distress
When He heard their cry;
And He remembered His covenant for their sake,
And relented according to the greatness of His lovingkindness.
He also made them objects of compassion
In the presence of all their captors.

Great is God’s faithfulness!

Rom. 3:3-4 ”“
What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar………

Ps. 36:5 ”“
Your lovingkindness, O LORD, extends to the heavens,
Your faithfulness reaches to the skies.

Lam. 3:22-23 ”“
The LORD'S lovingkindnesses indeed never cease,
For His compassions never fail.
They are new every morning;
Great is Your faithfulness.

Hi William,

I will start a new thread "The Righteous Shall Live By Faith".

(soon)

Blessings

Hi Ron,

Some thoughts:

(1)

You said:
"The fact that man is lost and under God's judgment does not mean that he is garbage.”

There is nothing good left in fallen man and he is fit only to be discarded, done away with.

Ps. 14:3 ”“
They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

Isa. 64:6
For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Rom. 8:7-8(KJV) ”“
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Job 14:4 ”“
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

1 Cor. 15:50 ”“
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

There is only one place for fallen man to be:

Gal. 2:20 ”“
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live………

There is only one remedy:

"Behold, I make all things new” ”“ Rev. 21:5, KJV.

"You must be born again” ”“ John 3:7.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 ”“
Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Gal. 2:20 ”“
………it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me………

This is the only way to go:

Phil. 3:8 ”“
………I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,

(2)

You said:
"The Bible states that there is something great about mankind in that he is personal and can know God personally.”

Jesus is the only Way, the only Truth and the only Life and no one comes to the Father but through Him (John 14:6).

But every man has turned to his own way (Isa. 53:6). His thoughts are no longer God’s thoughts and his ways are no longer God’s ways (Isa. 55:8). Heaven has been closed to him (Gen. 3:23-24). He will attempt to build many towers to reach into heaven but all will be laid to waste (Gen. 11, Rev. 18). For,

Isa. 40:6-8 ”“
All flesh is grass, and all its loveliness is like the flower of the field.
The grass withers, the flower fades,
When the breath of the LORD blows upon it;
Surely the people are grass.
The grass withers, the flower fades,

God is Light but Adam had fallen into utter darkness. What partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness (2 Cor. 6:14)? All that God can say to fallen man is: "I never knew you.”

Adam had eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and on the day that he ate it he surely died for God does not lie. The consequence is final and sure: "You are dust and to dust you shall return” (Gen. 3:19).

But God has no pleasure in the death of the dying (Ezek. 18:32).

He has loved us with an everlasting love therefore He draws us with kindness (Jer. 31:3).

Jer. 29:11 (CSB) ”“
For I know the plans I have for you"--this is the LORD's declaration--"plans for your well-being, not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope.

God moved immediately to save Adam.

Gen. 1:3 ”“
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

God gave Eve a precious "seed” by which will come salvation.

Gen. 3:15 ”“
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.

Adam had died and all his descendants were destined to die, but, through this seed all his descendants will be made alive. Eve, the mother of all Adam’s descendants, is now "mother of all the LIVING” (Gen. 3:20). Not mother of the dead.

This "seed” is the Word of God.

Luke 8:5,11 ”“
The sower went out to sow his seed………
………the seed is the word of God.

Christ is the Word of God, the Word of Life.

John 1:1-3 ”“
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

1 John 1:1 (AMP) ”“
[I am writing about] what existed from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life [the One who existed even before the beginning of the world, Christ]

It is through this Word, this Seed of Christ, given to Eve that Adam’s descendants can be born again of Christ.

1 Peter 1:22 ”“
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Christ is Light. Christ is Life.

Every man who comes into the world has the "seed” of Christ’s light and life in him.

John 1:4 --
In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

John 1:9 (KJV) ”“
That was the true Light, which lighteth ((((( every man ))))) that cometh into the world.

But in fallen man, life and light could not burst forth from Christ’s seed in him.

John 1:5 ”“
The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The word translated "comprehend” is Strong’s 2638 meaning "to lay hold, to seize”.

Commentaries:

Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers ”“
The thought here is that the darkness did not lay hold of, did not appropriate the light, so as itself to become light; the thought there is that individuals did not recognise it.

Meyer’s NT Commentary ”“
οὐ κατέλαβεν] apprehended it not, look not possession of it; it was not appropriated by the darkness, so that thereby the latter might have become light, but remained aloof and alien to it.

Expositor’s Greek Testament ”“
καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν. The A. V[23] renders this "and the darkness comprehended it not”; the R. V[24] has "apprehended” and in the margin "overcame”. The Greek interpreters understood the clause to mean that the darkness did not conquer the light. Thus Theophylact says: ἡ σκοτία … ἐδίωξε τὸ φῶς, ἀλλʼ εὗρεν ἀκαταμάχητον καὶ ἀήττητον. Some modern interpreters, and especially Westcott, adopt this rendering. "The whole phrase is indeed a startling paradox. The light does not banish the darkness: the darkness does not overpower the light.” This rendering is supposed to find support in chap. John 12:35, where Christ says, "Walk while ye have the light,” ζνα μὴ σκοτία ὑμᾶς καταλὰβῃ; and καταλαμβάνειν is the word commonly used to denote day or night overtaking any one (see Wetstein). But the radical meaning is "to seize,” "to take possession of,” "to lay hold of”;

The imperishable Seed, the eternal Light, was buried in the darkness but the darkness could not expel it. It is by this seed that man retained eternity in him after the fall.

Eccl. 3:11 (NIV) ”“
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

Col. 1:26-27 ”“
that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Salvation for mankind awaited the coming of the Saviour.

Gal. 4:4 ”“
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman……

Matt. 1:18-24 ”“
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, "GOD WITH US.

Comment:
Christ was born of a virgin. Therefore, He was NOT born of Adam’s fallen and perishable seed. His conception was of the Holy Spirit and He was born of the woman’s seed, the imperishable seed, the Word of God. He became the perfect man who lived the perfect life as man, and, by His cross and resurrection, the "old man” of Adam’s perishable seed was crucified, all obstacles were cleared away and man can be born again of the imperishable seed. It is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me. And of God we are in Christ Jesus who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption (1 Cor. 1:30).

2 Cor. 5:17 (Berean Literal Translation) ”“
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, the new has come into being.

1 Peter 2:2 ”“
like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

Eph. 4:13 ”“
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Gal. 4:19 ”“
………until Christ be formed in you,

Heb. 1:3 ”“
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature……

Then man in Christ is again in the image of God. Christ lives in his heart by faith, and through Christ he has access to God the Father (Eph. 3:17, 2:18).

It is through the "seed” given to Eve after the fall and not through anything in fallen man (and not through a fallen human spirit) that union and communion with God is restored to man.

Born again of the imperishable seed in us, we now have the glory of Christ Himself living in us. This is the glorious truth of our salvation.

1 John 5:11-12 ”“
And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

(3)

You said:
"As Elibeth pointed out, I believe that the Tree of Life has importance in this discussion. When Adam was created he was not complete; through a series of choices God intended that he would eat of the Tree of Life. Though man is now fallen God still intends this same thing for us.”

As I see it:

The Tree of Life represents man having the life of Christ (which is the life of God) in him through the agency of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit gives life (2 Cor. 3:6). The mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace (Rom. 8:6).

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents man living the "self” life through the agency of the "flesh”. The mind governed by the flesh is death (Rom. 8:6).

Do you notice that God did not command man to eat from the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden?
Why?
I would say it is because he was already eating from the Tree of Life!

Adam forsook the Tree of Life to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The result was that he lost the eternal life of God in him and his life descended to the level of the perishable life of the beasts.

Ps. 49:12 ”“
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.

Eccl. 3:18-20 ”“
I said to myself concerning the sons of men, "God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts."
For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.
All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

Gen. 3:21 ”“
The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

Comment:
Sons of God are clothed with Christ (Gal. 3:26-27).
But, after the fall, God clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins.
Why?
Is it not because they have become like the beasts that perish?

Gen. 3:22 ”“
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever "””

Comment:
It is NOT God’s Truth that fallen man is "like God”. This is Satan’s lie that fallen man now believes to be truth.
Is it possible for fallen man eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil to also have the Tree of Life?
Of course not!
But foolish fallen man thinks he can.
Just like Christians asking God for the Holy Spirit to enable them to live the Christian life in the flesh.

Gal. 3:1,3 ”“
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Gen. 3:24 ”“
So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

Comment:
In my view, the cherubim and the flaming sword were stationed there to guard, that is, to preserve, the way to the Tree of Life so that it will not be lost to man for it is God’s will for all men to be saved. The sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings (Mal. 4:2) and heaven will again be opened to man through the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:51).

(4)

A Concluding Thought:

Who did Christ come to save?

Luke 4:14-19 ”“
And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district. And He began teaching in their synagogues and was praised by all.
And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
"THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Comment:
Those who are elected for salvation are the poor, the captives, the blind and the oppressed. This surely includes EVERY fallen man.

God is mighty to save!

Isa. 40:3-5 ”“
A voice is calling,
"Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness;
Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.
Let every valley be lifted up,
And every mountain and hill be made low;
And let the rough ground become a plain,
And the rugged terrain a broad valley;
Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
And all flesh will see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

Isa. 2:12 ”“
For the LORD of hosts will have a day of reckoning
Against everyone who is proud and lofty
And against everyone who is lifted up,
That he may be abased.

1 Sam. 2:8 ”“
He raises the poor from the dust,
He lifts the needy from the ash heap
To make them sit with nobles,
And inherit a seat of honor;
For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S,
And He set the world on them.

Isa. 42:16 ”“
I will lead the blind by a way they do not know,
In paths they do not know I will guide them.
I will make darkness into light before them
And rugged places into plains.
These are the things I will do,
And I will not leave them undone.

Ps. 102:19-20 ”“
For He looked down from His holy height;
From heaven the LORD gazed upon the earth,
To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
To set free those who were doomed to death,

Question:
Who are those elected for salvation?
All those doomed to death.
Who are doomed to death?
ALL men (Rom. 5:12)!

1 Cor. 15:22 (KJV) ”“
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Praise the Lord!

Hi Jade,

Your efforts are appreciated.
I am worried that you are making scripture say what you would sincerely like it to say...and that is that ALL people will eventually be saved?

You quoted 1 John 5:11-12 ”“
And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."

Does it not follow that some will take (receive) the Son and some will not?

"God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble"
"He crowns the humble with salvation"

Are you saying that God will eventually turn all proud hearts and make them humble so they can be saved?

Will the logical conclusion not be that the devil himself can and will also be saved? Since God does not want anyone to perish? Surely satan as a created being of a loving God must also be saved?

Just some thoughts...

Hi William,

You wrote:
"I am worried that you are making scripture say what you would sincerely like it to say...and that is that ALL people will eventually be saved?”

Conversely, William, are you reading scripture to accept only what you want it to say……and that is that NOT ALL people will be saved? And you will not accept scripture like "in Christ ALL are made alive” and "it is God’s will for ALL men to be saved” for what it plainly says but go around it, below it, under it, and any which way you can, to circumvent it?

You wrote:
"You quoted 1 John 5:11-12 ”“
And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."
"Does it not follow that some will take (receive) the Son and some will not?”

No. It does not follow that some will take (receive) the Son and some will not. This verse simply lays down this truth: You must have the Son of God to have eternal life. It is totally possible for ALL to have the Son and none to not have the Son.

You wrote:
"’God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble’
"’He crowns the humble with salvation’
"Are you saying that God will eventually turn all proud hearts and make them humble so they can be saved?”

SCRIPTURE says: "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled……(Luke 14:11).

You wrote:
"Will the logical conclusion not be that the devil himself can and will also be saved? Since God does not want anyone to perish? Surely satan as a created being of a loving God must also be saved?”

I do not know. Scripture is silent on this. And I do not wish to speculate.

This I know:

God loves man and has a great and glorious eternal purpose for man. It is God’s will for all men to be saved and we are exhorted to pray for all men and for God’s will to be done.

1 Tim. 2:1-6 (Young’s Literal Translation) ”“
I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men:
2 for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity,
3 for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour,
4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
5 for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who did give himself a ransom for all ……

Matt. 6:9-10 ”“
Pray, then, in this way:
'Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

Blessings

Hi Jade,

What say you to these scriptures?

Believers Who Have Died
"13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to
be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so
that you do not grieve like the rest, who have no
hope."

Jude 5Though you already know all this, I want to
remind you that the Lordc at one time delivered
his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those
who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not
keep their positions of authority but abandoned
their proper dwelling””these he has kept in darkness,
bound with everlasting chains for judgment
on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and
Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave
themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion.
They serve as an example of those who suffer
the punishment of eternal fire.
8In the very same way, on the strength of their
dreams these ungodly people pollute their own
bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial
beings."

Revelation 20 The Judgment of the Dead
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who
was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled
from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before
the throne, and books were opened. Another
book was opened, which is the book of life. The
dead were judged according to what they had done
as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the
dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up
the dead that were in them, and everyone was
judged according to what they had done. 14Then
death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
The lake of fire is the second death. 15All whose
names were not found written in the book of life
were thrown into the lake of fire."

Hi William,

(1)
1 Thess. 4:13 (NASB) ”“
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

In this verse Paul was telling the Thessalonian Christians not to grieve for fellow Christians who had passed away. For Christians have the hope of the resurrection. When Christ comes again, Christians who have died will rise first and then those who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (v. 14-18). Christians should therefore be comforted.

Non-Christians do not have this hope and comfort.

But will they be without the hope of salvation in Christ forever?

Look at 1 Cor. 15:21-28 (NASB):

21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Verses 22-23 ”“ "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order………”.

Note that there is an "ORDER” in which ALL will be made alive in Christ.

This is the order:

(i) Christ the first fruits
(ii) Those who are Christ’s at His coming
(iii) The end, when death is abolished. As I see it, all dead in Adam have been made alive in Christ.

(2)
FIRE

God’s fire refines and purifies ”“ Mal. 3:2-3

God’s fire destroys enemies and allows us to be in Christ --- illustrated by Israel’s history, Deut. 9:3.

See what appears after the lake of fire (Rev. 21):

New heaven

New earth

New Jerusalem ”“ church perfected ”“ illumined by the glory of God and the Lamb is its Lamp

Nations walking in New Jerusalem’s light (no longer nations rebelling against God ”“ Ps. 2).

(3)
GOD’S JUDGMENT

Isa. 26:9 ”“
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

Blessings

Jade,

Salvation is "In Christ" and is offered to human beings NOW, while on earth, in this age of grace
It will not automatically pass to all people at the end.
Why preach the gospel then?
Why have a set apart people?

Why would Jesus warn so many times throughout the gospels about HELL, if it were not real and a real danger existed that we can end up there, eternally?

The parable of the Rich man in Hell?

and this:

The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory,
and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious
throne. 32All the nations will be gathered
before him, and he will separate the people one
from another as a shepherd separates the sheep
from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his
right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right,
‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take
your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you
since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry
and you gave me something to eat, I was
thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I
was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed
clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you
looked after me, I was in prison and you came to
visit me.’
37"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord,
when did we see you hungry and feed you, or
thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When
did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or
needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we
see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40"The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever
you did for one of the least of these brothers
and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart
from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire
prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was
hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was
thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was
a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed
clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and
in prison and you did not look after me.’
44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we
see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing
clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45"He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever
you did not do for one of the least of these, you
did not do for me.’
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment,
but the righteous to eternal life.”

William,

(1)

The meanings of the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats and the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus are not given in the Bible. Interpretations by men are hugely influenced and limited by their own theology and depth of their own biblical knowledge and understanding. On the other hand, scriptures like "In Christ all are made alive” and "It is God’s will for all men to be saved” are plain and clear.

I will say honestly that I do not fully understand the meanings of these two parables myself. But, some thoughts ---

PARABLE OF THE SHEEP AND THE GOATS (MATT. 25:31-46)

This parable concerns "nations”.

It is about what they did or did not do for "these brothers of Mine” i.e. brothers of Jesus ”“ gave or did not give them something to eat when they were hungry, gave or did not give them something to drink when they were thirsty, invited or did not invite them in when they were strangers, clothed or did not clothe them when they were naked, visited or did not visit them when they were sick or in prison.

Just a thought:
Even believers can be guilty as the goats.

Matt. 25:46 ”“
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Comment:

The word "eternal” is the Greek word αἰώνιον (aiōnion) (Strong’s NT 166) derived from αἰών (aiṓn) (Strong’s NT 165) meaning a space of time or age. Whether you believe this age is one of a series of ages stretching to infinity or if this age in itself is never ending depends on your theology.

The word "punishment” is the Greek word κόλασιν (kolasin) (Strong’s NT 2851). Zodhiates’ "The Complete Word Study Dictionary ”“ NT” describes this word as conveying "the notion of punishment for the correction and bettering of the offender”. But, again, if your theology cannot accept this definition for Matt. 25:46, then you will interpret it as vindictive punishment that is forever.

Food for thought:

Lev. 6:8-13 ”“
………This is the law for the burnt offering: the burnt offering itself shall remain on the hearth on the altar all night until the morning, and the fire on the altar is to be kept burning on it………The fire on the altar shall be kept burning on it…… Fire shall be kept burning continually on the altar; it is not to go out.

Comment:
The burnt offering is a fire offering of a pleasing aroma to the LORD (Lev. 1:17). It is a precious offering to God.

PARABLE OF LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN LUKE 16:19-31)

Just a comment:

The rich man, I would say, points to the Pharisee who were lovers of money (v.15), and justified themselves in the sight of men, "but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God” (v.15). Pharisees were strict adherents of the Law and prided themselves on keeping a plethora of external requirements that can be seen and praised of men while their hearts were far from God.

I would say a Christian can be this rich man too.

So, do be sure that you do not wake up in eternity and……horror of horrors(!)……find yourself in hell and………there is no way out!!

The Lord Jesus said this,

John 15:5-6 ”“
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”

(2)

You wrote:
"Salvation is "In Christ" and is offered to human beings NOW, while on earth, in this age of grace”

Eph. 2:7 ”“
so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

You asked:
"Why preach the gospel then?”

Why?

Because the way into God’s presence in the Most Holy Place has been opened for all mankind.

"Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes, and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest” (John 4:35).

Why?

Because the Lord Jesus commands us to.

Matt. 28:18:20 ”“
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Why?

Because we bring good news of great joy that shall be for all the people (Luke 2:10). We are opening their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Christ (Acts 26:18).

Why?

Because at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:10-11).

You asked:
"Why have a set apart people?”

Because God is calling out a people to be God’s New Jerusalem that is illumined by the glory of God and having a brilliance like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal (Rev. 21).

And in the ages of eternity to come,

Rev. 21:24 ”“
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

LAST WORD

It is an impasse, as it often is.

You will go away continuing to believe what you believe.

I will continue to search the Scriptures to determine "whether these things are so” (Acts 17:11) and be willing to discard what I have been told and stand on what the Scriptures say even if no one goes with me.

Let us pray.

Let us pray for the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth (John 16:13).

And as Paul exhorts, let us pray, NOT just for family and loved ones, BUT, for ALL men, for it is God’s will for ALL men be saved (1 Tim. 2:1-6).

Not our will, Heavenly Father, but Yours be done. Amen.

Note:
This is my last post here. I am leaving this thread before this discussion gets unpleasant and hostile and Greg has to step in to lock it.

God bless all.

Wow Jade, I didn't know you were a universalist? Or dabbling in it?

The 'all' of 1 cor 15:22 are contingent upon belief in Christ. Isolating an "all" text without considering the remainder is how error begins.
The "all" that die in adam are contingent upon remaining in unbelief.
If 'all' die in Adam, then no one is saved. But we know better, Christ has come so in Adam "all don't die". Some are made alive.
Christ makes 'all' alive, but not all are made alive because 'all' have not believed for not all men have faith.

If you interpret it in the wooden fashion you did, then you get your universal reconciliation at the expense of undermining the whole gospel. Why bother repenting and believing when in the end you will be saved.
So, no matter what, live like Charles Manson...it's ok, in the end you will be in as good a situation as the apostle Paul.
There is no danger at all in 'unbelief' or 'sin' or 'blasphemy' because according to your warped interpretation these damnable characteristics are granted equal access to the Throne of a Holy God.

Unless you've also devised a method of sanctification, justification, redemption after one has been judged? Or maybe that has been sacrificed too?

Where is that text that validates 'all' will be alive in Christ? Well, since the topic of 1 cor 15 is the resurrection, I'll page over to John 5.
What does John say...
Joh 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Joh 5:27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Wow, I see it 'all' will hear, that means he will make them alive...shoot I missed it again...wait, I'll read a little farther down. "those who have done good to the resurrection of life,", well Jade's right on that one...
then,"and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." Hold the presses, stop the clock, a resurrection to condemnation? Judgment? Damnation? So, while Christ does make all alive, those who have done evil will be damned even though they were 'resurrected'.
This does not sound like reconciliation, this sounds exactly like denunciation and condemnation.

So Paul in his generality concludes 'all' will be made alive
but that 'all' does not mean everyone, it means those who have believed will be made alive and stay alive. They live in the presence of God and will partake of the tree of life.

Evidently there is a resurrection that does not deliver from the second death, it in fact delivers some TO the second death.

So, if I had to concede to Jades interpretation of all meaning all=everyone I'd have to go with it. But, in being right about that, I find the 'all' are not eternally reconciled, to the contrary many are eternally divided and as such instead of universal reconciliation I find reconciliation based upon belief in the gospel while we live in our mortal bodies.
A Resurrection to damnation is hardly reconciliation, it's judgment and a punishment for 'evil'.

In this resurrected state such a man appears before the great white Throne, here evil receives its reward...which is not reconciliation but eternal suffering.

So in my first posting I simply claimed certain conclusions, in this post I show why I made them.

Now, I know the use of the term 'fire' can be thought of as a purifying thing, removing the dross etc. But, the fires of hell and the second death do not purify, purge and make a man ready for heaven, that work is assigned to the Holy Spirit as he indwells his people. The fires of hell are for punishment they are there to destroy the man or woman. We find no text where anyone emerges from the lake of fire a ready recipient for heaven. If that were the case, you could make the case for Satan, the beast the false prophet will also emerge purified and ready to partake of the tree of life.
But no such hope is offered anywhere for men or women in such a place.

My conclusion is to refuse the errant universal reconciliation, and remain in the truth where hell is real and the lake of fire burns and both of them are expected to receive wicked men and women.