How should this affect me as a believer?

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. (I John 5:18)

Is there a new creation in me that cannot sin because it was born of incorruptible seed (I Peter 1:23)? If so, how should that affect me as a believer? What practical daily results can I experience because of this?

Or as many are normally quick to point out, it doesn't mean you can't sin it means those born of God cannot go on habitually sinning as before they were saved. But is that what the verse says or does it mean Christ in you who is the basis of the new creation cannot sin? Which is it?

I'm going to sin again. I'm sure of that. We have been discussing this lately and it is interesting. But it seems in a way we have been taught that if we can subdue our flesh and make it do right (the hold on with white knuckles club) that we will then be walking in the Spirit. Why shouldn't it be the other way around - if you walk and have faith in the new creation within then you will be better able to crucify your flesh which is the real sinner.

The flesh has not been redeemed yet. It remains as it was but is now living under the promise of eventual redemption and glorification. Until then is there a new creation within me that cannot sin? How can Christ within sin? If so how should it affect me in my walk? Shouldn't our concentration be there so as to then live out better Romans 12:1? Why be constantly be reminded I remain a dirty rotten sinner if there is a sinless new creation within? Shouldn't I be trying to relate to that more even so than outward circumstances?

I'm not pushing the view that we will become perfect in this life. I will sin again but does I John 5:18 mean that the new creation within cannot since it was born incorruptible?
If so shouldn't this be the source of my concentration in my efforts at deeper sanctification and further laying aside sin? But firsf it must be determined what I John 5:18 means.

This is from Andrew book - abide

Believer! would you truly and fully abide in Christ, prepare yourself to part for ever from self, and not to allow it, even for a single moment, to have aught to say in your inner life. If you are willing to come entirely away out of self, and to allow Jesus Christ to become your life within you, inspiring all your thinking, feeling, acting, in things temporal and spiritual, He is ready to undertake the charge. In the fullest and widest sense the word life ever can have, He will be your life, extending His interest and influence to each one, even the minutest, of the thousand things that make up your daily life. To do this He asks but one thing: Come away out of self and its life, abide in Christ and the Christ life, and Christ will be your life. The power of His holy presence will cast out the old life.

To this end give up self at once and for ever. If you have never yet dared to do it, for fear you might fail of your engagement, do it now, in view of the promise Christ gives you that His life will take the place of the old life. Try and realize that though self is not dead, you are indeed dead to self. Self is still strong and living, but it has no power over you. You, your renewed nature - you, your new self, begotten again in Jesus death in Christ has freed you completely from the control of self: it has no power over you, except as you, in ignorance, or unwatchfulness, or unbelief, consent to yield to its usurped authority. Come and accept by faith simply and heartily the glorious position you have in Christ. As one who, in Christ, has a life dead to self, as one who is freed from the dominion of self, and has received His divine life to take the place of self, to be the animating and inspiring principle of your life, venture boldly to plant the foot upon the neck of this enemy of yours and your Lord's. Be of good courage, only believe; fear not to take the irrevocable step, and to say that you have once for all given up self to the death for which it has been crucified in Christ (Rom.6:6). And trust Jesus the Crucified One to hold self to the cross, and to fill its place in you with His own blessed resurrection life.

In this faith, abide in Christ! Cling to Him; rest on Him; hope on Him. Daily renew your consecration; daily accept afresh your position as ransomed from your tyrant, and now in turn made a conqueror. Daily look with holy fear on the enemy, self, struggling to get free from the cross, seeking to allure you into giving it some little liberty, or else ready to deceive you by its profession of willingness now to do service to Christ. Remember, self seeking to serve God is more dangerous than self refusing obedience. Look upon it with holy fear, and hide yourself in Christ: in Him alone is your safety. Abide thus in Him; He has promised to abide in you. He will teach you to be humble and watchful. He will teach you to be happy and trustful. Bring every interest of your life, every power of your nature, all the unceasing flow of thought, and will, and feeling, that makes up life, and trust Him to take the place that self once filled so easily and so naturally. Jesus Christ will indeed take possession of you and dwell in you; and in the restfulness and peace and grace of the new life you shall have unceasing joy at the wondrous exchange that has been made - the corning out of self to abide in Christ alone.

But it seems in a way we have been taught that if we can subdue our flesh and make it do right (the hold on with white knuckles club) that we will then be walking in the Spirit. Why shouldn't it be the other way around - if you walk and have faith in the new creation within then you will be better able to crucify your flesh which is the real sinner.

You may be getting at something here. A common view of sanctification is that every part of my life should be holy. But that's not holiness, it's the fruit of holiness. Holiness is Christ. He is the supply for each moments need. He is God's answer to every problem. I think we can increasingly learn to walk this way as we are increasingly aware of our need.

In Christ,

The Bible speaks of God's people growing to spiritual maturity from a seed of life that has been implanted in the soul. We have been "created" in the image of Jesus in holiness and righteousness. At the same time, the Scripture speaks of us dying and the life of Jesus Himself being made manifest through us as we no longer live, but Christ lives in us. These two truths spoken in many different ways in the NT create some questions and confusion. Is there a new me, a new creation that is holy but in infancy that grows and matures into full righteousness and holiness over time, but not completely until death and glorification. Or, is there only me dying daily and Christ in His maturity living through me more and more each day? This seems to be the back and forth discussion about sanctification.

Maybe it is not an OR situation at all. Maybe its an AND sanctification. We surrender to the Spirit's leading and filling and we walk with Christ in the light, in love, in holiness and truth etc. and thus Christ in His character is manifest in us. As we do that, we are also being transformed in character and holiness into the likeness of Christ, our own personal glorification and transformation into true likeness.

Thanks for the answers.

Do you all think there is a new creation within us, born of God, created from an incorruptible seed in righteousness and true holiness, that CANNOT sin? That is not a trick question or a gotcha question. It seems when you mention a part of you being born again in Christ that is unable to sin that people shy away. They won't go there because they assume you are speaking of not sinning anymore in your walk when that is not at all what you are saying.

YES!!! When we are born again we are a NEW creation and the old passes away.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Christ lives in your heart through faith. If you KNOW that God is telling you the truth through these words, and if you receive these words coming into you through faith to be Jesus in Person living inside your heart, then you have been touched by a miracle of God and the power of the Holy Spirit is overshadowing you.

Before we can really "lay hold of Christ" we must know that Christ Himself has already "laid hold of us"! So we are not attempting as person who is not already united with Christ to become united with Him. The reality is that Christ Himself is alive within you this very second. So we need to see that reality before we can believe and trust the person of Christ who is now within. As along as we look at a Christ in heaven, over there, next to us or even within us in a separate compartment we are doomed to failure and defeat.

To "lay hold of Christ" is to realize that His LIFE is really your life - NOW - right this very second. You have HIM now!! You are NOW united with Him. Believe that fact and treat Him as He is - because He is! Lets make this very simple - We can never "come into union with God." Jesus has already come into union with us. You have HIM now!! You are NOW united with Him. Believe that fact and treat Him as He is - because He is!

You can embrace Him NOW because you have been embraced by the Messiah Jesus. You can lay hold of Him because you have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus. He is hugging you and as a result you can hug Him back. He is giving the ability to respond (responsibility) - so just respond back.

Col. 1:12-13, "Giving thanks unto the Father, which has made us qualified to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son."

Eph. 2:4, "But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace you are saved;) And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:2, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Actually, the Bible says that we cannot "practice" sin if you look at the context. It's an inclination, nature and disposition that changes. The old nature practices sin because it is inclined to sin as God says. The new nature cannot practice sin. At least that is how Scripture reads.

In the same manner, the new nature may not practice sin because it cannot sin.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Very uplifting and encouraging:)

The new nature/old nature - sin issue was recently explained like this ;
Our "new nature” cannot sin in the same way that an IOS operating system cannot process and act upon input from a PC’s operating system... it literally can’t "compute” it as it’s a wholly different language. And so, it was said, once we are born again we get a new operating system that receives, processes and acts on all commands by Gods input-

Was an interesting analogy that made some sense to me.

Hi Fletcher.

In Jesus’ time, no computers so He used "good tree / good fruit” and "bad tree / bad fruit ". :)

Good thoughts going on here I think.

So which way does God really see us? As a new creation in Christ, partakers of His actual divine and incorruptible nature, or as someone saved but still a dirty rotten sinner, a worm and no man. Are we robbing ourselves when we say I remain just a poor sinner? Is that our true identity in God and Christ? Which should we relate to stronger?

We discussed this again in Sunday school yesterday. And I'm not saying I'm approaching perfection. But at this point I want to get my identity straight as I walk in this life.

1 John, 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

You are NOT a rotten sinner or a worm. You are A Child of God and Saint. Your Body is a temple of the LIVING GOD. The same Spirit who raised Christ from the dead Dwells in you. You are Holy.

You believe in the death of the Lord Jesus and you believe in the death of the thieves with Him. Now what about your own death? Your crucifixion is more intimate than theirs. They were crucified at the same time as the Lord but on different crosses, whereas you were crucified on the self same cross as He, for you were in Him when He died. How can you know? You can know for the one sufficient reason that God has said so.

It does not depend on your feelings. If you feel that Christ has died, He has died; and if you do not feel that he died, He has died. If you feel that you have died, you have died; and if you do not feel that you have died, you have nevertheless just as surely died.

These are Divine facts. That Christ has died is a fact, that the two thieves have died is a fact, and that you have died is a fact also. Let me tell you, You have died! You are done with! You are ruled out! The self you loathe is on the Cross in Christ. And "he that is dead is freed from sin" (Romans 6:7, A.V.)."

Just look at some things God has already done for you and in you.

This is the truth that sets you free.

You have deliverance from sin and its spiritual consequences.

You are attached to the body of Christ.

You have Jesus Christ actually dwelling, abiding and living within you.

You have been set free from the law of sin and death.

You have deliverance from the pollution of sin itself.

You are now one with Christ and in union with Him.

You are now a totally NEW creation.

You have been reconciled to God.

You have entered into a new spiritual life of righteousness, peace and joy

You are now seated in the heavily places in Christ.

You have been delivered from eternal death, sin, punishment and misery.

Jesus Christ Himself is now your Life. You are now a partaker of His divine nature.

You have been freed from the power and domain of sin.

You have now been justified by his blood,

You have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace "

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made you free from the law of sin and death

You have been crucified with Christ.

Your body is now the Temple of God and you are holy.

You have been made the righteousness of God in Christ.

He is your Sabbath rest.

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

God has taken away your stony hard heart and REPLACED with a new heart that is full of His love, desires and faith. Please note that this was an exchange. He took away the old heart and then replaced it with a new one. You do NOT have two hearts!

Jesus has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (Col 1:13)

Jesus has opened our eyes, and turned us from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that we may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith... (Act 26:18)

Jesus has delivered us from the snare of the Devil (2 Tim 2:26)

Jesus has delivered us from the god of this world who had blinded our minds that we believe not... (2 Cor 4:4)

Through Him and by Him we wrestle with principalities, and powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places AND OVERCOME ALL THE POWER OF THE ENEMY. (Eph. 6:12 and Luke 10:19)

The Truth is not just facts about God and Christ just to be understand. The truth is a PERSON. Jesus Christ - HIMSELF is the TRUTH and this living; abiding, dwelling, never ceasing, and always unfolding truth is in us NOW!! Seeing truth as a living person who is our ever present savior within us second by second changes everything. Now we have real person not a doctrine, idea, concept, teaching, principle, custom or ordinance to follow and apply. We do not have a God who is out there or over there. He is not even next to us or within us living in a separated compartment or room within our own selves.

God has placed us into Himself inside of all that is Christ. This is the gospel that we very seldom hear about. Christ Is In God and God is in Christ. We are in Christ and Christ is in us. We are in God and God is in Us. WOW! Do you believe that?

We have the never ceasing LIVING WORD, LIFE, TRUTH, LOVE, VICTORY, WISDOM, SALVATION, FAITH and SANCTIFATION within us now. For you are now filled with all the fullness of God. That means that God has given ALL of Himself to you. You do not just have a portion of God but NOW have All of God because you have Him. This is the gift that He has given you - HIMSELF. Everything that God is, you are. Everything that Christ is, you are now. You are COMPLETE IN HIM!!!

John 14:10-12, "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

Do you mourn your shortcomings; Do you think you have found the hated monster, sin, that is striving to be your master. Do you think that evil is present when you would do good? The help you need is now in Christ. Who is abiding, living and dwelling within you. God word tells you that you have died with Christ so now by a simple act of faith - take Him at as word. Just look deeply to see that you have died in Christ. He paid all of sin's penalties, and then raised you from the dead to live highest heights of godly life. You are now holy and you can experience this holiness when you know that you can totally depend on Christ within. As you depend on Him you will be filled with extreme joy in seeing Christ's finished work.

Now just let your loving Savior work in you His will, your sanctification by fully counting on Him being willing and powerful enough to do what He says. We live by His life and by His grace. Abiding, not striving nor struggling; looking off unto Him; trusting Him for present power; trusting Him both to will and to do of His great pleasure You can NOW rest in the love of an almighty Savior, in the conscious joy of a complete salvation, a salvation were Christ will literally become the only power for service and a holy life; His Life is the only ground for unchanging joy. May He lead us into the realization of His unfathomable fullness.

How then do we have our faith increased? Only by believing of all that Jesus is now living and abiding within us. Believe all He is for us: His life, His death, His work, He Himself as revealed to us in the Word, to be the subject of our constant thoughts. Not a striving to have faith, or to increase our faith, but a looking off to the Faithful One who becomes out life; a resting in the Loved One entirely, for time and for eternity.

Here, is the secret: It is not by asking how I can I abide in the Vine, but remembering that Jesus is the Vine - the root, stem, branches, twigs, leaves, flowers, fruit, all indeed. Yes, and far more too! He is the soil and sunshine, air and rain -- more than we can ask, think, or desire. Let us not then want to get anything out of Him, but rejoice in being ourselves in Him -- one with Him, and, consequently, with all His fullness. Not seeking for faith to bring holiness, but rejoicing in the fact of your perfect holiness in Christ, let us realize that -- inseparably one with Him -- this holiness is ours, and accepting the fact, find it so indeed.

Just believe right now that you are connected to Christ who is your Life and never ending unlimited supply of Love, Holiness, Faith, Righteousness, Peace and Joy. Now you have the person of Christ living, dwelling and abiding within you and HE is now giving everything you need to experience His complete and full salvation. You are in UNION with Him. You no longer have to "do things" to get Him to work, to bless, to give you a sense of His presence. It is His life of ceaseless and infinite power, love, and holiness being imparted within you every second of every day. You are just a vessel, branch or container of God's Life within you.

Do you know and embrace the fact that Christ is your life, that you have NO other life, that Christ shows Himself through every bumbling aspect of your humanity, that every part of yourself, especially your sin and their flesh, is found only inside of Jesus? It Is finished. What needed to cease has ceased, regardless of the sight of the eyes. You are alive unto God. The secret of abiding is knowing that you abide in Christ and that Christ abides in you and living out from no other place.

Cup, I hear what you said about it not mattering how you "feel”. I couldn’t and the Bible could not disagree more: This is a huge issue and not just a matter of theological debate. If we don’t see this issue clearly, we miss the point of salvation and a new heart completely.

Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. - Matthew 10:37

But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, - Romans 6:17

Whom have I in heaven but you? And there is nothing on earth that I desire besides you. - Psalm 73:25

After listening to the king, they went on their way. And behold, the star that they had seen when it rose went before them until it came to rest over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. - Matthew 2:9-10

I'm not trying to light a fire but I don't quite understand your answer. I thought feelings came last in our walk. Fact - faith - feeling. The facts are in the word of God, and they never vary. Faith takes its stand with the facts of God's word, and confesses them as true. Feelings may waver; but ultimately, if faith stands, feelings will come into line with the facts. On the other hand, if we start at the wrong end - with feelings rather than fact - we will always end up in trouble. Our feelings change hour by hour and moment by moment. If our life is based on them, it will be as unstable as they are. "The righteous man shall live by faith."

Likewise, I would think it doesn't matter how we may feel at any given moment regarding the fact that we are born again and the new nature and creation in Christ within us is incorruptible and cannot sin. It is a fact we can have faith in regardless of how we feel.

Thank you.

Not sure if I’m understanding what’s being put forth, so for clarity...
what about conviction??
When a believer sins, who "feels” conviction- the new nature or old nature?

It's an excellent question of which I am not sure of what all the particular ends and outs would be in regards to an answer. It is a fact though that Christ bore our old nature entirely at Calvary and through His one unique sacrifice this old nature was slain entirely. If the Church is trying to put the cross back at the center of its belief and practice this should be a major starting point in its efforts I think.

Thank you for your question.

This is a much needed discussion, and one that there is much confusion on within the church.

Before we were born again, we were indeed sinners, dead in our sins, and this is why we habitually sinned, because we had a sin nature, and sinning was most natural to us.

The born again child of God is no longer a dirty, rotten sinner, but has been made a new creation in Christ Jesus. The old things have passed away, and all things have become new. (2Corinthians 5:17). The Spirit of God is now abiding in the child of God, and he has been delivered out of the kingdom of darkness and translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son. (Colossians 1:13)

The child of God is in Christ Jesus, and Jesus is in Him through and by the Holy Spirit. God does not see us anymore as dirty, rotten sinners. "Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence””" (Colossians 1:,21,22).

The battle for the Christian is between the flesh and the spirit. We have been set free from sin, but the flesh and the spirit are at war with each other. "For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want." (Galatians 5:17).

The flesh will never be saved but must be crucified, and we must stand on the Word of God that our old sin nature has been crucified with Christ.

We have a choice to make of either walking after the Spirit or the flesh. "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

We can sin if we choose to, but we do not have to sin. "For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14).

If we attempt to overcome sin in our own strength then we will find ourselves doing the things that we do not want to do, and not doing the things that we know to do.... (Romans 7). Our victory is in Christ. It is through the overcoming life of Christ that we overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil. The self life must be crucified, and we must allow Christ to live His life in us and through us.

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." (Galatians 2:20)

//The self life must be crucified, and we must allow Christ to live His life in us and through us.//

Folks love to say this but no one I have seen has ever been able to explain how to do this without resorting to mumbo jumbo.

There used to be a poster here who would talk about this a lot and I never could understand what he was saying as a practical matter.

Todd,
Andrew Murray and Watchman Nee have books that explain the practical outworking of this.

It is all over the Word. Jesus said that if anyone wants to follow me, that is be His disciple, he must deny himself, and take up his cross. This is Discipleship 101.

Deitrich Bonhoeffer ”” 'When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die.'

Sure Mike- I know what scripture says.

But what would you tell a fledgling Christian to do in order to "die to himself?”

Maybe he should first be told to consider what actually happened at the cross. Then baptized into His death means what?

I am just looking for someone to lay it out in layman’s terms that a new believer would understand.

Do we really really really know what happened at the cross? Obviously there is some mystery to it.

Duplicate post

In Scripture, I see two elements of self death. One often addressed is to die to your own will apart from God's will.
That means to die to control of your own life. In a sense, to lose your "choice" every day. As the OT speaks, "God has determined, we have no say in the matter." A dying to self will.

The second aspect of self death, is to be, by the Spirit, putting to death the deeds of the flesh. This self death is the death of the old self that was crucified with Christ but must be put to death daily. This is a dying to the lustful desires of the flesh that war with the Spirit. This is done by the fruit of the Spirit called "self control".

I would still debate that there is a new self created in the image of Jesus that is born again in the new believer that grows from infancy to maturity as the Spirit leads, guides, counsels, enables, empowers, fills the believer and grows the believer to spiritual maturity from the inside out.

It's not only Jesus living His life through our surrendered life. That is certainly there. The Bible is clear. But, it seems to me Scripture says that the sanctification or temporal glorification process is a true growth in Christ likeness for the regenerated soul. With bodily Christ likeness yet to come at death. This aspect of seeing Him and becoming like Him is the part that I find less addressed by Murray, Nee, etc.

Todd I think the mystery of Calvary would be unveiled for the Christian layman to understand in the plain to read words of Scripture penned for that purpose. We don't have to look far good bro.

Bottom line question again. Do you think there is a new creation within us, born anew in Christ by ths incorruptible seed of the word, that cannot sin?

Yes and the scriptures say as much...
Paul states it as such;
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Vs 18a being the key as it were

Paul seems to articulate this conflict multiple times in different letters contrasting the flesh/spirit which leads me to understand both are present and we must choose whom we will serve~

God is now leading us 24 hours a day - it is a continuous leading.

2 Cor. 2:14, "But thanks be to God, who always leads us in His triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place."

Do you believe that God is ALWAYS leading you in TRIUMPH"?

He is leading you now - this very second. Your response in faith to this is YES, AMEN and let be unto me according to your word.

Yes indeed He is:)
However if we are to be partakers of His inheritance we must choose to follow His leading and not that of our flesh- to act in faith towards God by the spirit He has given us, utilizing the grace He has given us to keep step:))

There was a question asked.

Bottom line question again. Do you think there is a new creation within us, born anew in Christ by this incorruptible seed of the word, that cannot sin?

Answer: Un-theologically, Nope, that's just weirdness.

Answer Theologically, No, There is no 3rd party within our being. We are indwelt by the Spirit of God who IS NOT us, He is divine and his essence is supernatural/eternal/life/person. The other is the regenerated man who now is also a living Spirit as well as soul.
The human being, Spirit, Soul and Body triune is fully functional=alive unto God.
Sin never properly belongs to God, therefore if there is sin it is attributed to the man/woman's person.
Since we (Christians) are not divine we are a new creation (not new divinity) Therefore attributing sinlessness to some kind of new divinity within us is heterodox at best.

Robert is Spot-on in regards to the sanctification of the human being whereby the life of Christ lived through our mortal bodies and minds has a purifying/sanctifying efficacy in our lives. We as humans are being sanctified by faith in reality. Our humanity is not left out as if it is some 3rd party...unclean, unwanted and inherently evil.

To repeat...Our humanity is not left out as if it is some 3rd party...unclean, unwanted and inherently evil.
This would be a reversion to an old form of Gnosticism.

We as Human beings are being sanctified and made ready to enter the Heavenly Jerusalem, the City of Zion where we as the Bride of Christ shall live before God and see his face.

Edit to add: Doc made a distinction in the question "a new creation in us", therefore implying a 3rd party, Fletcher didn't address this, so while our answers may appear contradictory, I don't think we in fact are; Fletcher addressed the regenerate man living unto God, not a 3rd party who is sinless (which would make it divine).

Your comments are somewhat confusing and seem overly presumptive regarding things I said. Dont have time now but will get back later.

Hi Marvin,

I agree with what you said about there not being a "3rd person" inside of us. My question is this, what has been born in us that is not able to practice sin as 1 John says? What is the nature that has replaced the sinful nature, the old man? Or is the old man, just the guy who was controlled by the flesh? Is it only a change of control that defines the "new man" created in the image of God in holiness?

What is the spiritual life or dynamic that John is speaking about when he says that about the "born again" man. It certainly isn't the Holy Spirit he is referring to. What is the "new nature". If it is the Holy Spirit, then it is not the nature of the man that is being referred to but just the indwelling of the nature of God that then is not really a new man.

Prior to new birth, we had an old nature. It was who we were by identity. Now we have a new nature. What is that?

The new nature seems Scripturally to be something that dramatically and seemingly irreversibly changes the spiritual makeup of the man that was not present before new birth. Sanctification is a transformation of the soul for sure but what has been birthed in the new man that was not there before. Many Scriptures don't allow for that to be merely a reference to the "birth" of the Holy Spirit in a man.

Gal 4:19 "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you."

It is the Person of Christ Himself who abides , lives and dwells in the Christian.

This is not a doctrine, a concept, a teaching, an idea, a custom, a principle to embrace or follow. IT IS THE VERY PERSON OF CHRIST inside you NOW!!

Christ within you the hope of glory.

But that is not how you came to know Christ, assuming you heard about him and were taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus, to take off your former way of life, the old self that is corrupted by deceitful desires, to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, the one created according to God’s likeness in righteousness and purity of the truth. -- Ephesians 4:20-24 (CSB)

Is the new self Christ? And it arguably could be. But if it is, then what is the "new born" nature that 1 John says is not able to "practice sin". That text does not make any sense if it is a reference to Jesus. Jesus did not commit any sin, which is significantly different than not "practice sin".

Hi Robert:

Great questions and a good place to remove the fuzziness of thinking by laying these things out.

It is the Spirit in man that is born-again. The Soul is renewed day be day, our mind/will/emotions are brought into obedience by reason of the 'new birth' of our Spirit.

"That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit". I interpret that literally to mean the spirit of man in man is regenerated by the Holy Spirit of God.

The 'old nature' is man living by no other means than by his own spiritually dead mind/will/emotions. That is all he operates by. His level of thinking goes no farther than the soulish faculties he possesses.
The unregenerate man functions on an animal level, he being made in the image of God has vastly superior intelligence and reasoning and those function only in accord with his own lusts and predilections.
This is observed when we see very intelligent atheists reason and argue all to no other end than themselves.

The Spirit of man is that connection point where the Holy Spirit and our human spirit may commune. It is here where true worship originates and the love of God's truth has its foundation.

The Holy Spirit is not 'birthed' in us, scripture teaches he is given, received, indwelling, filling, anointing etc. But is he simply anointing the mind? If that were the case no 'new birth' would be needed, a revelation of God's truth to the mind would be sufficient.

But we all know ( and painfully so) that revelation to the mind is totally insufficient to bring a transformative work in him, something else needs to take place, this being the New Birth of the Spirit in man equally regeneration.

Because of this and other texts I distinguish between soul and spirit as the word of God does divide between the two.
If the spirit and soul were simply synonyms in scripture the Word of God would not divide a mere literation.

The new nature is the manifestation of the Born-of-God Spirit in a believer.

It should also be remembered, though we are 'alive unto God' we derive all power/authority/and personal right from the revealed will of God.
This is where the Spirit of God reveals the word of God not only to our minds but 'in' our spirit as well.

Clear as mud? I hope this answers some of your questions.

//Gal 4:19 "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you."//

There are two figures of speech in this verse; why do you fall all over taking the latter literally and not the former?

Paul is not saying there is an embryonic physical Christ developing in our bodies. He obviously is equating the process of sanctification to Christ being formed in us.

"The lives of others are examples for us, but God requires us to examine our own souls. It is slow work”” so slow that it takes God all of time and eternity to make a man or woman conform to His purpose.” Oswald Chambers

Hi Marvin, I agree with you. Absent that explanation, so many texts simply have no meaning. The whole idea of new birth, new nature, new creation, new life, etc. become meaningless or just hyperbole if all they are meant to only define is the indwelling of the Spirit.

I may not have stated it altogether correctly but I never meant to imply there is a third person living within us. The person I was referring to is the regenerate person within - the new creation in Christ which we are. If that regenerate new creation was born again of incorruptible seed can it sin? That which is born of God cannot sin. What does that mean?

Our outward man, the members of our body (including our brain which is a organic part of our physical body) have not been born again but only live at this point under the promise of eventual redemption and glorification. If my regenerate inner man is incorruptible and is my true identity in Christ then shouldn't we be taught more about relating to it instead of being taught religious ways to make ourselves holy. Or being reminded constantly that we remain a dirty rotten sinner that gives off a stench to God before we even get out of bed in the morning. I will sin again but if the new nature within is incorruptible then we have a heads up advantage as far as empowering our flesh to experience greater sanctification. Can the new creation within become corrupt? What does "that which is born of God cannot sin" mean?

Hi David, I think in the way you've now worded your question, we are asking similar things. I think it is a very legitimate question. I believe you are probably not reading the context of "cannot sin" rightly though. In context it has to do with a practice or way of life of sinning and not a total inability to sin. The theologians speak of an inclination, predisposition against sinning ( a nature that recoils at or is drawn away from sin ) or even one that has a hatred of sin intrinsically or "naturally".

None obeys completely, but we are commanded to do so, and true disciples have every intention of doing so. Failure to obey completely is a breach of the King's law, but it is not, in itself, damning. To inadvertently violate the speed limit is not to renounce your citizenship. Likewise, a child is not disowned by his parents because he forgets to do a particular assigned chore. There is grace in this Kingdom for those whose disobedience springs from weakness, ignorance or temporary insanity (James 3:2), and not from rebellion (Matt.26:41).

Agreed Todd.

Hi David: You asked a good question previously, I had no intention of labeling you a gnostic by it, only that such a thing is a piece of gnosticism.

What I want to do is stay away from terminologies that the scripture do not express.

"new nature is incorruptible", The word of God is incorruptible which is as a seed to bring forth a true child of God. The incorruptible word bringing forth an incorruptible nature does not follow. It's incorruptibility lay in it's divine origin and efficacy, the biblical seed is not a metaphysical morphing into incorruptible spirit-nature if such an oxymoron can be used.

Let me say it this way, because we are born of God, we are not now divine or demi-gods. This is what the pagans of old believed. I am speaking rhetorically not implying this belongs to anyone here.

Our New Birth is God's saving of the whole man, Spirit soul and body. The saving of the soul is in proportion to the Spirit=regenerate man acting in a cooperative means putting to death the deeds of the body and the old thinking and opinions of his fallen past.

The Soul of man is saved in a progression, (though we all use the phrase "a saved soul", the biblical reality marks the Spirit of the man has been made alive upon regeneration and the mind/will/emotions are saved as they are brought into submission to the will and word of God.

When you read Paul in Romans 7 we see,
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

In summary, Conscience and law does not stop the inward and onward march toward more and more sinfulness. It can curtail it for a time or push down one thing only to set free another.

The answer lay not in the conscience which belongs to the soul of man, nor in the law which instructs the mind of man, it lay in the rebirth of the Spirit of man, who indwelt by the Spirit of God empowers to mortify the deeds of the body

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Lastly David you are right on target about being taught concerning living after the life of Christ as he lived out his life.
As much as I love Jonathan Edwards, the new convert does not live on 'sinners in the hands of an angry God'. He lives and grows on the promises of faith, the compassion of his Savior, the guidance of the Spirit of God. With much gentler subjects and milder tones do we learn to walk with Christ.

I believe here is a good place to inject an important Caveat to my previous statements so as not to generate undo questions or steer us away from sound biblical truth.

The Word of God makes clear mention of the Spirit of man being regenerate, the Soul of man being transformed by renewal.
Yet, this is very important

The Soul and Spirit of man are a unity, they are not a disconnected spirit and a disconnected soul bumping into each other in our little schizophrenic mind.

So, by implication, the Spirit of man being regenerate is a 'saving of the soul' as well. Since man is 'divided' by the Word of God in order to instruct us and give us discerning; our human spirit and soul are not divided into metaphysical realms. Our will and reasoning properly belong to the mind of man...not simply the physical brain, but to say we have a will in our mind and a reasoning in our mind as two separate entities would be a division where there is none.

There's probably some analogy like shell,whites,yoke that could probably fit and confuse the issue more.

I say this because our Human Spirit says nothing without the mind, our human spirit wills nothing without the mind (which belongs to the soul) These always work together and from this comes an 'awareness' of oneself and the discerning that one's will and ones knowledge are in conflict...especially in a temptation.

So, I hope without creating a muddy mess you can understand the Spirit and Soul of a man are a unity in the Born of God believer.

It is because of this unity, we face the text of 1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
With the understanding that the regenerate human spirit does not seek to practice sin, but the remnants of our fallen nature still reside in our flesh and our stubborn will/desires and hence the conflict arises and hence a whole book by John exhorting us to walk in love, light, obedience, giving etc. To walk according to the Spirit of God as he has empowered the Human Spirit to obey.

Why bother even talking about practicing sin if the conflict is no longer present? Because until the work of the Spirit brings us to that place of daily dying to self and living in faith unto God we need that instruction and the admonition to guard ourselves from presuming what we currently are and what Christ is, are the same thing.

The extreme cases of loony bin thinking has arisen from improper understanding of this subject.

A man who believed he was a Christian ( and he may certainly have been) claimed to never sin, no matter what he did, he was now a 'new creation' and therefore never sinned.
With numerous quotes from 1Jhn1:9, he never budged, so I asked him point blank "so is it sin if you were unfaithful to your wife"? He responded "no" it is not, I no longer sin.

A that point I knew this man had gotten a piece of truth and twisted it into a lie, a lie so ridiculous and obvious to everyone but himself.

He had so emphasized his 'new creation' that he no longer would look at himself as a man who needed constant grace to overcome the world, he spoke as if it was all in the bag.

Im not pretending to have all the answers here and I will sin again.

/The word of God is incorruptible which is a seed to bring forth a true child of God. The incorruptible word bringing forth a incorruptible nature does not./

Why not? Do not all seeds bring forth fruit after their kind? Why would the incorruptible seed of the word do any different?

/Its incorruptability lies in its divine origin and efficacy, the biblical seed is not a metaphysical morphing into incorruptible spirit nature./

I would not think it becomes less than divine in origin and efficacy after it brings about a new birth. The word of the Lord lives and abides forever (I Peter 1:23)
What it is as it brings about a new birth is what it remains - incorruptible.
Since seeds bring forth after their kind is the new nature incorruptible and corrupt at the same time?

No one is speaking of becoming divine or demi-gods. We are a peaking of having a deposit of the divine nature within us. By these magnificent and precious promises we have become partakers of the divine nature -II Peter 1:4. We were born again in righteousness and true holiness (Ephesians 4:23-24) by a incorruptible seed (I Peter 1:23) so how can the new creation in Christ not be incorruptible? True righteousness and holiness do not and cannot sin since they are part of the divine nature.

"Those in whom the Spirit works the divine nature are freed from the bondage of corruption. Those who are, by the Spirit of grace, renewed in the spirit of their mind, are translated into the liberty of the children of God; for it is the world in which corruption reigns. Those who are not of the Father, but of the world, are under the power of sin; the world lies in wickedness, 1 Jn. 5:19 . And the dominion that sin has in the men of the world is through lust; their desires are to it, and therefore it rules over them. The dominion that sin has over us is according to the delight we have in it.” ~~Matthew Henry

"Partaking” has an element of choice. If we are partaking of the divine nature it is by choice. We do not have to partake if we do not want to. Is it possible we would not want to? Yes, per the last sentence in Henry’s quote above.

Hi David: Im not pretending to have all the answers either.
Truth is, this is a great refresher for me since I've not dealt with this subject in years, and no doubt rusty.

Since we are in agreement we are not demi-gods, then it seems partaking of the Divine nature does not impart incorruptibility.

When God made Adam in his perfect state incorruptibility was not an attribute.

Physical seeds produce after their kind...so says Moses, However I will stick with redeemed and regenerated humanity, which is partaking of his Divine nature.

Lastly, you said " True righteousness and holiness do not and cannot sin since they are part of the divine nature."

That is an anthropomorphism, and as such is indefensible as it reads. Divinity cannot sin that is true, but a Redeemed man is not divine in any part of him. He is only human.

Dave, this is why I pushed back from using the term 'incorruptible' because it's properly a divine attribute not human.

I am going no farther than believing God in his grace gave us eternal life, he gave us the Holy Spirit and regenerated our Human Spirit. This New Creation is now only fully human and empowered to represent God in man and a man in God.
There is no mixing of divinity and humanity, no hybrid, just wonderfully redeemed Man.

That's good Todd. No problem. But the issue I am interested in is not whether one decides to partake of the divine nature or not. The issue is if one decides to partake of the divine nature within, the new creation in Christ, what is its nature or make up. Can it be corrupted and sin?

It'a not an anthromorphonism in the way I meant it. God is truly righteous therefore cannot sin. God is truly holy therefore cannot sin. The new man was created according to God in true righteousness and holiness (Ephesians 4:23-24).

So can the new man sin? If he can it would seem that true righteousness and true holiness can sin. The renewal of our soul and mind and the subjection of the outer members of our bodies is another thing in regards to the nature of the new man in Christ. The new man seems to go beyond just a representation of God in us.

Hi Ron. There’s actually a verse that says that:

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. - Galatians 5:16

"He which stablisheth us with you in Christ, is God." - 2 COR.1:21

THESE words of Paul teach us a much needed and most blessed truth - that just as our first being united with Christ was the work of divine omnipotence, so we may look to the Father, too, for being kept and being fixed more firmly in Him. "The Lord will perfect that which concerneth me" - this expression of confidence should ever accompany the prayer, "Forsake not the work of Thine own hands." In all his longings and prayers to attain to a deeper and more perfect abiding in Christ, the believer must hold fast his confidence: "He which hath begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." There is nothing that will so help to root and ground him in Christ as this faith: "He which stablisheth us in Christ is God."

How many there are who can witness that this faith is just what they need! They continually mourn over the variableness of their spiritual life. Sometimes there are hours and days of deep earnestness, and even of blessed experience of the grace of God. But how little is needed to mar their peace, to bring a cloud over the soul! And then, how their faith is shaken! All efforts to regain their standing appear utterly fruitless; and neither solemn vows, nor watching and prayer, avail to restore to them the peace they for a while had tasted. Could they but understand how just their ownefforts are the cause of their failure, because it is God alone who can establish us in Christ Jesus. They would see that just as in justification they had to cease from their own working, and to accept in faith the promise that God would give them life in Christ, so now, in the matter of their sanctification, their first need is to cease, from striving themselves to establish the connection with Christ more firmly, and to allow God to do it. "God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ." What they need is the simple faith that the stablishing in Christ, day by day, is God's work - a work that He delights to do, in spite of all our weakness and unfaithfulness, if we will but trust Him for it.

To the blessedness of such a faith, and the experience it brings, many can testify. What peace and rest, to know that there is a Husbandman who cares for the branch, to see that it grows stronger, and that its union with the Vine becomes more perfect, who watches over every hindrance and danger, who supplies every needed aid! What peace and rest, fully and finally to give up our abiding into the care of God, and never have a wish or thought, never to offer a prayer or engage in an exercise connected with it, without first having the glad remembrance that what we do is only the manifestation of what God is doing in us! The establishing in Christ is His work: He accomplishes it by stirring us to watch, and wait, and work. But this He can do with power only as we cease interrupting Him by our self - working - as we accept in faith the dependent posture which honours Him and opens the heart to let Him work. How such a faith frees the soul from care and responsibility! In the midst of the rush and bustle of the world's stirring life, amid the subtle and ceaseless temptations of sin, amid all the daily cares and trials that so easily distract and lead to failure, how blessed it would be to be an established Christianalways abiding in Christ! How blessed even to have the faith that one can surely become it - that the attainment is within our reach!

Dear believer, the blessing is indeed within your reach. He that stablisheth you with us in Christ is God. What I want you to take in is this - that believing this promise will not only give you comfort, but will be the means of your obtaining your desire. You know how Scripture teaches us that in all God's leadings of His people faith has everywhere been the one condition of the manifestation of His power. Faith is the ceasing from all nature's efforts, and all other dependence; faith is confessed helplessness casting itself upon God's promise, and claiming its fulfilment; faith is the putting ourselves quietly into God's hands for Him to do His work. What you and I need now is to take time, until this truth stands out before us in all its spiritual brightness: It is God Almighty, God the Faithful and Gracious One, who has undertaken to stablish me in Christ Jesus.

Listen to what the Word teaches you: - "The Lord shall establish thee an holy people unto Himself"; "O Lord God, stablish their heart unto Thee"; "Thy God loved Israel, to establish them for ever"; "Thou wilt establish the heart of the humble"; "Now to Him that is of power to establish you, be glory for ever"; "To the end He may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness" ; "THE LORD IS FAITHFUL, who shall stablish you and keep you from all evil"; "The God of all grace, who hath called us in Christ Jesus, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you." Can you take these words to mean anything less than that you too - however fitful your spiritual life has hitherto been, however unfavourable your natural character or your circumstances may appear - can be established in Christ Jesuscan become an established Christian? Let us but take time to listen, in simple childlike teachableness, to these words as the truth of God, and the confidence will come: As surelyas I am in Christ, I shall also, day by day, be established in Him.

The lesson appears so simple; and yet the most of us take so long to learn it. The chief reason is, that the grace the promise offers is so large, so God - like, so beyond all our thoughts, that we do not take it really to mean what it says. The believer who has once come to see and accept what it brings, can bear witness to the wonderful change there comes over the spiritual life. Hitherto he had taken charge of his own welfare; now he has a God to take charge of it. He now knows himself to be in the school of God, a Teacher who plans the whole course of study for each of His pupils with infinite wisdom, and delights to have them come daily for the lessons He has to give. All he asks is to feel himself constantly in God's hands, and to follow His guidance, neither lagging behind nor going before. Remembering that it is God who worketh both to will and to do, he sees his only safety to be in yielding himself to God's working. He lays aside all anxiety about his inner life and its growth, because the Father is the Husbandman under whose wise and watchful care each plant is well secured. He knows that there is the prospect of a most blessed life of strength and fruitfulness to every one who will take God alone and wholly as his hope.

Believer, you cannot but admit that such a life of trust must be a most blessed one. You say, perhaps, that there are times when you do, with your whole heart, consent to this way of living, and do wholly abandon the care of your inner life to your Father. But somehow it does not last. You forget again; and instead of beginning each morning with the joyous transference of all the needs and cares of your spiritual life to the Father's charge, you again feel anxious, and burdened, and helpless. Is it not, perhaps, my brother, because you have not committed to the Father's care this matter , daily remembering to renew your entire surrender? Memory is one of the highest powers in our nature. By it day is linked to day, the unity of life through all our years is kept up, and we know that we are still ourselves. In the spiritual life, recollection is of infinite value. For the sanctifying of our memory, in the service of our spiritual life, God has provided most beautifully. The Holy Spirit is the remembrancer, the Spirit of recollection. Jesus said, "He shall bring all things to your remembrance." "He which stablisheth us with you in Christ is God, who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." It is just for the stablishing that the Holy Remembrancer has been given. God's blessed promises, and your unceasing acts of faith and surrender accepting of them - He will enable you to remember these each day. The Holy Spirit isblessed be God - the memory of the new man.

Apply this to the promise of the text: "He that stablisheth us in Christ is God." As you now, at this moment, abandon all anxiety about your growth and progress to the God who has undertaken to stablish you in the Vine, and feel what a joy it is to know that God alone has charge, ask and trust Him by the Holy Spirit ever to remind you of this your blessed relation to Him. He will do it; and with each new morning your faith may grow stronger and brighter: I have a God to see that each day I become more firmly united to Christ.

And now, beloved fellow - believer, "the God of all grace, who hath called us in Christ Jesus, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you." What more can you desire? Expect it confidently, ask it fervently. Count on God to do His work. And learn in faith to sing the song, the notes of which each new experience will make deeper and sweeter: "Now to Him, that is of power to establish you, be glory for ever. Amen." Yes, glory to God, who has undertaken to establish us in Christ!

Hi David: The way I understand it, the Believer is a unity of soul and spirit, whether he sins by bodily action or worship of another god he sins.

If there is some kind of "part of me sinned and the other part didn't", the outcome is the same, the man is guilty of sin.

I believe this brings us full circle "who shall deliver me from the body of this death"?

Therefore we serve God in the Spirit knowing that sins of the mind/body need not resume the rule they had.

I don't see where scripture takes us farther?

As I also see it, there is no need to call some part of us "incorruptible" because whether there is such a thing in us or not the scripture promises never address that 'thing' in us, rather it speaks to the mind/spirit in man.

I don't have time now to comment but will get back later. I don't consider us as arguing but exchanging thoughts and comments.

Hi David: It's a good discussion, and I think valuable to at least me, I appreciate a congealing of ideas, and using your ideas to stir up mine.

Again, this is why study into this matter or any other causes friction at a Church and is avoided. Namely because something like this, never even broached by anyone in the congregation brings out all manner of interpretations and differences of opinion.

For me, you help me get ahead of the curve so when my brothers and sisters in a study group raise such a topic I am not totally oblivious to the subject.

Hi Vern: I own and have read many books by Andrew Murray,( the same ones many times) they are wonderful in their 'feel' and how he addresses every topic with a gentleness quite alien from me. There were a couple of years in my life where Andrew's books were used by God as an anchor to my own soul.

It's my opinion that Brother Andrew has the same opinion as me and I with him, namely the regenerate Spirit living in continual communion with God through the Holy Spirit.

For many years my "Christian” life I was consumed with the thought. "Right now I sin. When I am in heaven I will not sin. That's what I believed perfection meant." Sin versus no-sin. Now I know that is just living from-in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So while thinking the real issue for me was sin versus not-sinning, hear and obey versus fail to hear and disobey, I was living in the false issue, which is living in sin, that is, falling short of the real issue. I was so caught up with the idea of obedience versus disobedience I missed the LIFE of CHRIST.

The real issue is living inside the tree of life (John 14:20) where no either/or is to be found. The issue of the tree of life is knowing God and knowing Jesus Sent. I now live in the tree of life where I am no longer concerned about obedience or disobedience. Nor am I concerned about sinning ”“ or not sinning. He now is my ONLY life and I and 100% consumed with HIM and KNOWING HIM!

Christ HAS BY HIMSELF purged our sins. One sacrifice for sins forever. He has perfected to completion those whom He is continuously making holy. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God inside of Him

The reason we do not live inside of sin, but inside of Christ where there is no sin, is that the contention of sin verses not-sin is death. And knowing God is life. Those busy with sin/not-sin are failing to know God. Jesus redeemed us and made us free from sin (Romans 6 & 7) so that we could leave sin/not-sin and busy ourselves with the only thing important - knowing God and God known through us.

Every true Christian (however Jesus defines that) KNOWS the Lord. But to know is a sliding scale concept. And the depths of meaning found in "know the Lord" will never end.

Peter is writing to born again Christians.

"You have been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the Word of God which lives and abides forever."

The nature of the seed determines the nature of the life that comes out of it. If you sow an orange seed, you do not get an apple. If you sow an apple seed, you do not get an orange. If you are born a natural person of a corruptible seed, you will have a corruptible life - a life subject to the process of corruption. If you are born again of incorruptible seed, however, you will enjoy incorruptible life, because it is impossible for a incorruptible seed to produce a corruptible life. The key word describing the new nature is incorruptible.

What is the seed that brings forth the new man, and what causes it to be incorruptible? It is the seed of God's Word which produces incorruptible life.

Look at James 1:18: "Of His own will He brought us forth [or begot us again] by the word of truth. The truth of God's Word begets in us an incorruptible nature.

What does this mean regarding our tendency to sin? First John 3:9 says: 'Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Derek Prince was born of God about 59 years ago at this writing. Does that mean Derek Prince never sinned after salvation? I can tell you for sure that it does not! Yet the verse says he "cannot" sin. My conclusion is that John is talking not about the individual but about the new man in the individual. Because he is born of incorruptible seed, the new man is incapable of sinning.

I love I John 5:4: 'Whoever is born of God overcomes the world." It is both a whoever and a whatever. The apostle John is not talking about James or Bill or George or Mary or Jane. He is talking about the new man produces in us by the Word of God. Again, incorruptible seed produces an incorruptible nature. Does that mean once we are born again, we can never sin No. It all depends on which nature is allowed to control us. The old man cannot help sinning. The new man cannot sin. What you do depends on who is in control of you.

A person who has been born again cannot help sinning, because his very nature causes him to sin. But a person who has been born again has an option. If we allow the new man to remain in control, we do not sin. If we allow the old nature to reassert itself, we sin.

Claiming this Exchange:

Whatever you do, do not try to make the old man behave in a religious way! This does not work. Instead, God's solution is this:

My old man - the rebel, the corrupt one - was crucified in Jesus that I might be delivered from that evil and corrupt nature, and that a new nature might come into me, through the Word of God, and take control of me.

(From "Bought with Blood: The Divine Exchange at the Cross" - by Derek Prince, Ch 11 - "The New Man in Place of the Old Man" - pg 135-136)

Is not the incorruptible Seed the living Word of God, even the Born Again Seed of Jesus Christ Himself Who gave to us of the Father the Holy Spirit of Promise in us forever to bring this Seed forth in producing fruit, fellowship and love for God?

The Word of God, "Living"; John 1:1-5 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

So in the beginning Christ was made all things and He was made to be in the believer. Born Again; Ephesians 1:1-5 (KJV) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Christ in you the hope of Glory; Colossians 1:27-29 (KJV) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

He is now the life I live, by His working and our striving by that working which worketh in us mightily.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi David,
1John3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;for his seed remaineth in him;and he cannot sin,because he is born of God.

Thank you for this edifying thread!

Amen!