God loves Us but Not Them!

"If God is for Us then who can be against Us"

Joshua went up from Gilgal, he and all the people of war with him and all the valiant warriors. And the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not fear them, for I have given them into your hands; not one of them shall stand before you.” So Joshua came upon them suddenly by marching all night from Gilgal. And the LORD confounded them before Israel, and He slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and pursued them by the way of the ascent of Beth-horon, and struck them as far as Azekah and Makkedah. And it came about as they fled from before Israel, while they were at the descent of Beth-horon, that the LORD threw large stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died from the hailstones than those whom the sons of Israel killed with the sword.
Joshua 10:7-11

God loves Us but Not Them! ☺️

Hi Savannah: Couple of ways you can take this post.

You just cant leave it alone can you? You seem to call into question the assumptions made everywhere.

"God loves everyone"...but some he throws hailstones at and kills them. So, trying to reconcile that opens a can of worms...and you don't even care if God gets bad press from it.
"In the New Covenant God doesn't throw stones any more"
Revelation 6, war, famine, plague, death all set loose by way of Jesus himself opening the seals.
This and much more can be added.
As long as you do not read much of your bible, you can believe (as I read in other posts) in pretty much anything so long as your own self-image is bolstered.

If there are cats in a bag...Savannah wants to open the bag.

conversation on this kind of subject is usually limited because it forces you to try and put a cat back in that is now out.

I know it says "God so loved the world" and most everyone will preach it up. But reconciling the tossing of hailstones at God's enemies by God himself...almost no one says a word about it. Things best left alone.

What’s love got to do, got to do with it?

I know it says "God so loved the world" and most everyone will preach it up. But reconciling the tossing of hailstones at God's enemies by God himself...almost no one says a word about it. Things best left alone.

Or on the other hand, it's a challenge to dig deeper.
The problem could be our truncated concept of "love”, especially God’s love. We assume that loving means doing nice things. So if bad things happen to you God must not love you anymore. Oh, how many people struggle with that assumption!

If we consider the bigger picture, we’d see that because God loves the world (humanity)he won’t let the human race self-destruct through its sinfulness. Judgment is God’s brakes on sin. It’s part of His love.

Surely God’s love was expressed through his preservation of ancient Israel through whom the Messiah would descend? It often meant severe judgment on whatever would destroy Israel (from within or without). Surely, God preserved ancient Israel not because of their worthiness or special status”“ but because of God’s love to humanity as a whole.

I wonder if we can together craft a new thread title, a different way to read the presenting scripture passage. The current title carries with it the risk of a human propensity: the "Us” vs "Them” worldview. We see ourselves as the ones on God’s side, and the rest are outside of God’s love. Ancient Israel fell into that same propensity ”“ and couldn’t admit that they themselves were on a downhill slide leading to divine judgment. Did judgment mean that God stopped loving them? Of course not! I’d say: Judgment was proof of divine love.
Hebrews 12:4-12 explains how trials are a sign of God’s discipline = Fatherly love.

Surely judgment itself is an act of mercy!

Diane

Art Katz taught that God loved the Jewish people so much he brought the Holocaust upon them and will do even worse in the future.

Art Katz taught that God loved the Jewish people so much he brought the Holocaust upon them and will do even worse in the future.

The sermon is called
The God who devastates - Art Katz
It’s here on SI
I remember the first time I heard it.... it was like a boat that had been drydocked- having the barnacles scraped off its hull. It was an uncomfortable, painful truth being put forth by brother Katz. Like being spiritually sandblasted, removing the unnecessary accumulation of worldliness.
It’s been close to ten years since I’ve listened to it, but remember that I couldn’t speak for a while after and my church service later that morning seemed more like a kindergarten class after listening to Art.

Diane said,

"The current title carries with it the risk of a human propensity: the "Us” vs "Them” worldview."

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Know ye not, that, the "Us” vs "Them” worldview is strewn throughout the Word of God!

"YOU are of God, little children, and have overcome THEM: because greater is he that is in YOU, than he that is in the WORLD. THEY are of the WORLD: therefore THEY speak from the WORLD, and the WORLD heareth THEM. WE are of God. He that knoweth God, heareth US; he that is not of God, heareth not US. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."
1 John 4:4-7

The above is just one clear sampling of this.

I make no apologies for "the current title" nor "the risk" you mention. For it is no human propensity to present it in such a way,it is the Divine Way in His Own Holy Word.

If I were to apologize, I would have to apologize for the Word of God. No christian would do such a thing.

As for the Hebrews passage you mentioned, you're absolutely right. It does just that, as you say,"explains how trials are a sign of God’s discipline = Fatherly love." The key word there is "Fatherly." We are not ignorant of the fact that God is not Father to all. As Jesus Himself told some, "your father is the devil." And in 1 John 3:10 it's stated,

"By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."

"Us” vs "Them” worldview:

Children of light vs children of darkness
Children of God vs children of the devil
Sheep vs goats
Sons vs bastards
Saints vs sinners
Called out ones vs the world's ones
Vessels of mercy vs vessels of wrath
Those born of the Spirit vs those born of the flesh
Those whom He foreknew vs those He never knew

Any questions?

"My beloved is mine, and I am his; He pastures his flock among the lilies."
Song of Solomon 2:16

Savannah: I do love the fact you have no qualms with letting the word of God speak for itself.

//Can you site the source for us? I'm wondering if this was his exact wording. //

In addition to the sermon Fletcher mentioned, he talked about it in his three part series called "the holocaust.” I am pretty sure it is available on SI.

Art may not have put it in exactly those words but the idea is that God was willing to do it to turn his people.

Now, this raises a whole host of troubling questions, like "didn’t God know it wasn’t going to work, at the cost of 6 million souls?”

It is better for me if I don’t think too long on such questions.

//and my church service later that morning seemed more like a kindergarten class after listening to Art.//

Yes he tends to have that effect.

"YOU are of God, little children, and have overcome THEM: because greater is he that is in YOU, than he that is in the WORLD. THEY are of the WORLD: therefore THEY speak from the WORLD, and the WORLD heareth THEM. WE are of God. He that knoweth God, heareth US; he that is not of God, heareth not US. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."
1 John 4:4-7

Are these texts to be used as proof that God loves some but does not love the sinners (those under judgment)?

Hi Diane: The text you posted tells us what it's point is..."By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error". It substantiates two kinds of people as Savannah said. But it's not proof that a sinner who fits under that category (spirit of error) will always remain so. In fact that's where God gets his saints...from the sinners who are 'not of us'.

But the fact remains, not all sinners are elected to the salvation of God. For God knows whom he has chosen to reveal himself. It follows that those whom God reveals himself too are those whom God loves and has determined to open their eyes to it.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

"no man can come to me except it were given unto him of my Father"

This 'seeing the Son'...40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
is not by way of natural process, but by divine revelation.
The Jews saw Jesus but didn't see Jesus at the same time.

It's from this we deduce the manifest love of God, not by way of guessing 'whos loved' but by their testimony of 'seeing Jesus' because the Father revealed him to them.
As is found in Matt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven

We are not 'against' sinners, God forbid, but we are not 'of' those who are estranged from God. God made the separation himself and that by his own workings.

But the fact remains, not all sinners are elected to the salvation of God. For God knows whom he has chosen to reveal himself. It follows that those whom God reveals himself too are those whom God loves and has determined to open their eyes to it.

Some receive God's love./ Others reject God's love.

Or is that too armenian?
We'd undoubtedly agree that ultimately those who reject God are eternally separated from God's covenant love - as promised to humanity (the world.... or some in the world ...)

.. God was willing to do it to turn his people.

"The Lord wants to turn our captivity to pray for others in their captivity …Our mandate to extend mercy that they may receive mercy.”

"There’s a remarkable necessity to lay hold of God in a way that we would have been too slothful to otherwise seek him. We would have been content to coast. [Through my message today] God is bringing you a verbal holocaust of a fuller one for those who want to be increased and multiplied and have a length of years for which you can rejoice eternally.

"You who are relatively satisfied with yourself”, [consider Job who through his own holocaust came to say] ‘I repent in dust and ashes’. Dust means dirt, the only place that’s fit for you is 6 feet under.
Isaiah said, "Woe is me for I am of unclean lips and I live amidst a people of unclean lips.”

"If we don’t understand from ultimate suffering, will we be required to experience something worse?”

The tragedy is in failing to turn to see or ask what God is doing in the devastation.
----
Art implies that we should not avoid troubling themes like judgment. Rather, we need to face "perplexity” (his word).

It seems that this thread theme is an opportunity to do just that.

Is God’s love for His enemies different than His love for His family? If so, when does the difference begin in God’s heart and mind?

43 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5:43-48

Here is an aspect from the Greek that may shed light on this subject.

Jesus explained to the disciples that "The Father Himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came forth from God." The word for love here is "φιλέω" the intimate and personal relationship between two friends. The noun form of this word was used of Abraham - "Abraham was called the "friend" (φιλos) of God."

Jesus called His disciples "friends" (φιλoi) because of the relationship they had with Him. He also clarified that they were His "friends" based upon their continuing obedience to His commands."

This relationship between obedience and having God's love is also expressly stated in John 14:21 - " He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

Paul seemed to understand this principle and this is evidenced by his closing statement in I Corinthians 16 - "If any man does not love (φιλeo) the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema."

mak

Gloating over the destruction of those "God doesn't love" is where problems of attitude begin. I'm chosen and they are not so ha, look at them may not be the most godly of attitudes.

Exalting the love God has for His family does not in any way diminish the love He obviously has for His enemies. I was only asking if there is a difference and when that love of family began. Jesus prayed that the Father would love Jesus’ brothers with the same love He has for Jesus. I’m just trying to understand a difference, if any, for His love of enemies like we all once were.

docs said,

"Gloating over the destruction of those "God doesn't love" is where problems of attitude begin. I'm chosen and they are not so ha, look at them may not be the most godly of attitudes."

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The righteous will be glad when they see the wicked getting what they deserve, and they will wash their feet in their enemies' blood.
Psalm 58:10

Do not gloat when your enemy falls, and do not let your heart rejoice when he stumbles. Proverbs 24:17

🤔

You have heard that is was said an eye for a eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I say unto you love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. We've come a long ways since rejoicing when washing our feet in the blood of our enemies. The NT speaks of higher and better ways.

Exalting the love God has for His family does not in any way diminish the love He obviously has for His enemies. I was only asking if there is a difference and when that love of family began.

Robert, May I take a crack here? I realize this garble falls short….. I’m still working on it.

I see no way of coming to terms with the concept of God’s love apart from the theme of reconciliation ”“ as distinguished from forgiveness. Humanly speaking, we understand that forgiving an offender doesn’t imply that we are reconciled with them. The offender must be willing to receive our forgiveness, and that requires that person owning up to their wrongs. A violated adult daughter cannot enjoy a restored filial relationship with her formerly-abusive father while he continues in his denial ”“ even though she herself has chosen to forgive him.

I’d say: We’ll have difficulty understanding and even knowing God’s love as long as we disregard his mercy and forgiveness ”“ the essence of redemptive love!

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us … For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son.” Rom. 5:8, 10

… Can we not surely declare that God loves the world even in their enmity (estrangement from Him)? Christ died for all, and thus God’s forgiveness extends to all! YET: no sinner is reconciled to God, into a filial relationship while continuing to deny their fallenness and while unable/unwilling to embrace his covenant merciful love.

"The Father Himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came forth from God." The word for love here is "φιλέω" the intimate and personal relationship between two friends.

Diane said,

"Christ died for all, and thus God’s forgiveness extends to all!"

JESUS said,

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know My sheep and My sheep know Me, just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.

So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

"I already told you,”Â Jesus replied, "but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
John 10:11,14,15,16,24-30

Ephesians 5:25-27

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,and to present her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.

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JESUS, and The Word of God penned by Paul the Apostle to the gentiles, tell me that His death was for His sheep, His church He loved, even as a faithful husband loves his wife.

Jesus says twice, "I lay down My life for the sheep", and then says, "you are not My sheep" to some. Your assumption Diane, that, "Christ died for all", is refuted by my LORD and my God Himself, the King of kings, Messiah Jesus.

Here lies the foundation of that error regarding His love. Get this right and all else is put in the proper perspective.

God is good and kind to all His creatures. The rain falls and the sun shines on all. It is written that He endures the vessels of wrath, but His love endures forever to the vessels of mercy.

Again, seen here is the "Us" and "them" worldview. For there's no other worldview revealed from above.

Abel and Cain
Jacob and Esau
Peter and Judas
The two thieves

Praise be to our God, for there is no other!

Hi Doc:

I'm not sure I know anyone here who 'gloats' over the destruction of sinners. I for sure make a distinction between the Elect and Non-elect but that does not mean I or anyone else is 'gloating'.

Bringing up this subject has the same reaction that Jesus received when he did the same "many drew back" it's a "hard saying" etc.

Hi Mak good to hear from you.

The aspect of Phileo (friendship or friend) belongs to the fruit of love, it's not source of God's bestowal of love. Otherwise, you have a full-fledged works system that qualifies you once you've 'loved' enough in obedience.

Jesus denotes those who obey are those who love him. Jesus is not teaching the free-will has now loved and therefore God responds by loving back. Instead, Jesus is teaching that the fruit of believing is obeying...as Jesus taught in another place "a good tree bears good fruit".

Jesus died before there was any Church.

He died so there could be a church.

So to say he died for the Church only is rather misleading.

His death was the means for the Church to come into being.

Again, seen here is the "Us" and "them" worldview. For there's no other worldview revealed from above.

Savannah, I appreciate the many biblical references you draw. They undeniably reveal a distinction between the "sheep” and "goats”. It's clear in countless scriptures.

Yet it seems we are walking past each other. I wonder if you are hearing me say that since "God so loved the world..(as in all humans)” all are consequently saved (the universalist view, which is all too common). Is that right? If so, I’m curious to know what words of mine might have implied that.

What I mean by the "us vs them” worldview is something quite different, and I can explain that later.

todd said:

Jesus died before there was any Church.

He died so there could be a church

So the passage has no meaning after there was a church? He just died for the possibility?

So, Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and died for her must mean then that this command only applies before we are married.

Todd says,

"Jesus died before there was any Church." 

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Not true.

The Word of God says that the Church was in the wilderness; note also that Christ was with them.

For He is our Rock. The hymn-writer didn't pen Rock of Ages for nought. He knew the Scriptures, both OT and NT.

Acts 7

30And when forty years were fulfilled, an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in a flame of fire in a bush.31And when Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold, there came a voice of the Lord, 32I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob. And Moses trembled, and durst not behold. 33And the Lord said unto him, Loose the shoes from thy feet: for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 34I have surely seen the affliction of my people that is in Egypt, and have heard their groaning, and I am come down to deliver them: and now come, I will send thee into Egypt.

35This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? him hath God sent to be both a ruler and a deliverer with the hand of the angel that appeared to him in the bush. 36This man led them forth, having wrought wonders and signs in Egypt, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years. 37This is that Moses, who said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. 38This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us.

1 Corinthians 10

1For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and did all eat the same spiritual food; 4and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ. 5Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Todd, you also failed to address Jesus' own words that He was laying His life down for His sheep.

I don't think you believe that the people of God are separate groups of people.

The people of God are one throughout the ages, from Adam onward. One flock which make up His sheep, and One Shepherd of all, Jesus the Messiah.

And then there are those Jesus plainly said were not His sheep.

Well said Savannah

Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. - Jude 1:5

"And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.” Heb. 4:3

"… the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.” Rev 13:8

Todd says,

"Jesus died before there was any Church."

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Not true.

??

I’m getting confused folks. Also, at this point I’m not sure how I am being "heard”, so I can’t be sure how to engage in the dialogue or what to clarify. I didn’t mean to create a combative atmosphere or put anyone on the defense. My apologies.

Where I’m from in Canada, we are snowed in, plows have been off the road, and everything shut down. It’s left me a bit of time to engage here.

It seems that Canadians have learned that there's not much point in combating with weather. Maybe that's what leans us towards the trait of "agreeableness".

I wish you all the best of God’s blessings! You are all awesome!

I’m confused too Diane so you are not alone.

I am talking about the NT church that makes up the temple of living stones.

Eph. 5:25-26 speaks of Christ dying for the Church. It is not logically inconsistent because a person can certainly die for something that does not yet exist but for which the sacrifice may bring it about. Christ knew that the Church would arise because His death made it possible. Further, his death made possible the sanctification of the church described in v. 26-27.

So Christ’s death made the Church, his bride, possible. He knew that those who come to him on His terms will comprise the Church.

Hi Diane: I dont spend more than a few seconds worrying about how I am heard. For the most part how you are heard depends on your hearers.

Please go ahead and respond

Hi again Diane:

Christ slain from the foundation of the world is a prophetic statement, a revelation of God's intent and plan long before the creation.

The old Covenant form of the Elect or chosen ones are seen in Israel, they as God's chosen who lived out their lives looking forward towards a Messiah. Their prophets point towards the future and the revealing of Christ.

All this you already know.

Israels overall failure to believe and follow their Messiah makes no change whatsoever to the fact Jesus is their Messiah, he is the prophetic fulfillment.
Old covenant saints find their perfection in the Messiah as so many believed and were become Christians in the early Church.

The Church is an enlargement so to speak of the Israel of God. I say enlargement because God now forms a New Covenant based upon Christ fulfilling the Law and the inclusion of Gentiles as part of the Elect, the chosen of God.

The Church both Jew and Gentile comprise the Church, but as was quoted by Savannah, the Elect of God have existed since God's outpouring of grace in the garden of Eden.
Hebrews teaches us we have a great clout of witnesses, witnessing the love of God, the working of God, the saving and promise keeping God as we see in the Old Testament.

In Christ Israel (the Jews) and the Church all funnel into Christ together as one great corporate body...and this whole body has been redeemed by Christ and perfected by Christ.

Those who have "washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb" are those who both looked forward to the Messiah, and those who afterward look back to the Messiah as their redeemer.

I hope this clarifies some?