Kenotic Christ: A heresy that is promoted by Todd white , Bill Johnson , others

Article from the CARM website
https://carm.org/kenosisenosis

by Matt Slick
4/30/2008

"Kenosis" is derived from the Greek word "kenoo" which means "to empty." It is used in Phil. 2:7. The text of Phil. 2:5-8 is worth recording here.

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." (Phil. 2:5-8).

The kenosis theory states that Jesus gave up some of His divine attributes while He was a man here on earth. These attributes were omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence. Christ did this voluntarily so that He could function as a man in order to fulfill the work of redemption. This view was first introduced in the late 1800s in Germany with Gottfried Thomasius (1802-75), a Lutheran theologian.

Phil. 2:5-8 does not teach that Jesus gave up any of His divine attributes since it says nothing of those attributes. Instead, it is speaking of His humility that moved him, according to the will of the Father, to leave His majestic state in heaven and enter into the humble position of human nature.

There is, however, a problem the orthodox must deal with that the Kenosis theory seems to more adequately address. Take Mark 13:32 for example. In it, Jesus said, "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." If Jesus knew all things, as is implied in His divine nature, then why did He not know the day or hour of His own return. The answer is that Jesus cooperated with the limitations of humanity and voluntarily did not exercise His attribute of omniscience. He still was divine but was moving and living completely as a man.

The Kenosis theory is a dangerous doctrine because if it were true, then it would mean that Jesus was not fully divine. If Jesus was not fully divine, then His atoning work would not be sufficient to atone for the sins of the world.

The correct doctrine is the Hypostatic Union--that Jesus is both fully God and fully man (Col. 2:9) and did not give up any divine attributes while as a man on earth.

I want to show you all the times from there books and YouTube videos as this is no small matter in denying the deity of Jesus Christ and a heresy promoted by bill Johnson , Todd white, Hillsong and others

It ends up in a works based salvation

So Jesus was omnipresent when he was walking on the earth? Could have fooled me.

Thank you for posting Dominic.
The link you gave did not link to the article so I found it here:

https://carm.org/kenosis

Matt Slick is an anointed apologist and teacher and needs our prayers and support as he is under heavy fire for standing for truth.

TMK you did not read the article, it stated that Jesus chose to willingly lay aside some of His divine attributes in order to fulfill God's plan.

L

That has always been my position on the kenosis along with every Christian I know.

Of course he voluntarily laid them aside- that’s what emptied himself means. He was not omnipotent omnipresent or omniscient during his tenure on earth. Of course he was still God.

I don’t see what Slick is complaining about.

Can someone explain this doctrine a little deeper along with why its considered dangerous? It seems like semantics. Whether God laid aside his omniscience or just didnt excercise it, to me, points to the same conclusion...that being that Jesus wasnt omniscient in the flesh.

Unlike Satan, who wanted to become a God unto thimself and be served, Jesus did not hold onto His right to be served but became a servant. Truly Jesus subsumed His omnipotence and omniscience so that He could be like us and would wholly depend on the Father for what He did and said, this verse though has to do with serving in the Kingdom rather than being served. Subsume got and emptying ate the same idea but emptying cannot be being rid of. God cannot stop being God.

If the apostles knew these men in question they'd have inserted their names in all of the following verses;

2 Peter 2:1-3 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”

Romans 16:18 "For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.”

2 Corinthians 2:17 "Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God.”

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.”

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"And yet some people actually imagine that the revelation in God’s Word is not enough to meet our needs. They think that God from time to time carries on an actual conversation with them, chatting with them, satisfying their doubts, testifying to His love for them, promising them support and blessings. As a result, their emotions soar; they are full of bubbling joy that is mixed with self-confidence and a high opinion of themselves. The foundation for these feelings, however, does not lie within the Bible itself, but instead rests on the sudden creations of their imaginations. These people are clearly deluded. God’s Word is for all of us and each of us; He does not need to give particular messages to particular people.”
”” Jonathan Edwards

____________________

If you continue to promote the idea of, "eating the meat and spitting out the bones", as some are promoting, your spiritual health will decline rapidly, because even the meat being offered by these men is rancid.

These men are enemies of the cross, false brethren, and we are not only to avoid these men, but warn them to repent or perish. They are evil seducers who are deluding the masses, and even worse than Simon the sorcerer in the book of Acts. Simon at least asked for prayer to be offered up on his behalf. These men brazenly offer up strange fire upon an altar of sacrifice. Jesus will not own them on that day, but rather will say to them, "depart from me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness."

Maybe this brazen attitude of condemnation is what would keep these men from being approached and spoken to in a loving manner. What if they honestly do not know the error they may br involved in? I don't see them lurking in secret knowingly aware they may be passing on wrong doctrine but not caring anyway. The church and its leadership needs to agree to get together in love and admonition when these things arise instead of displaying rock hard condemnation. Instant condemnation and no prayer about the very things we condemn can make a motley crew also.

"Maybe this brazen attitude of condemnation is what would keep these men from being approached and spoken to in a loving manner."

Peter's brazen attitude or loving manner?

Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, "Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! "You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. "For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.” But Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.” Acts 8:18-24

"Instant condemnation and no prayer about the very things we condemn..."

Peter apparently wasn't enlightened as so many others are today in the 21st century american church.

Such judgmentalism on Peter's part huh! Such instant condemnation, and he doesn't even offer to pray for him!

And this, not even after years of watching and waiting and listening to Simon, but in a moments time.

Peter should have taken Simon under his wing, but instead says that he may be destroyed along with his money.

Either Peter has much to learn from you, or vice versa!

Bill Johnson
Heaven invading earth
Jesus is the eternal Son of God. He is not a created being who somehow ascended to divinity, as some cults claim. He is entirely God, entirely man. But both His life and death were lived as man. What that means is that He set aside His divinity to live as a man. He was without sin and was completely dependent on the Holy Spirit. In doing this, He became a model that we could follow. If He did His great miracles as God, I’m still impressed. But I’m impressed as an observer. When I discover that He did them as man

Todd white
https://youtu.be/4q8yU6aQ5ps

What you understand with this doctrine is that bill Johnson states that he lived as man which Denys the doctrine of the hypostatic union..

hypostatic union
nounTHEOLOGY
the combination of divine and human natures in the single person of Christ

The hypostatic union is an important doctrine as it what makes is different from the Jehovah's witnesses and mormans

The reason it so annoys me as most teachers say that Jesus used the power of the holy spirit to do miracles and you can do miracles to if you live a perfect Christian life and be like bill Johnson and Todd white and etc
Not only is it false it ends up in a works salvation and the Bible gets neglected and it is more idolatry of people like bill Johnson and Todd white and all these false teachers.

Athanasius died in the 3rd century and was exiled and the blood of many martyrs was shed so that we have doctrines as when you create a different Jesus who not in the scriptures it is a serious matter .

Jesus will simply say depart from me I never knew you because you are not worshiping the Jesus in the Bible , you are worshipping a different Christ .

Good article to explain what kenosis is as jesus did not empty himself of his deity or divine attributes

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_795.cfm

The discipleship controversy raged in the 80s and finally everyone got together and discussed the issues. I would rather see this happen, as the council of Acts 15, than say for these men to be judged or worse as some probably prefer. The body of Christ may not be in the type of shape where it can listen to one another anymore.

The problem with this doctrine is more than surface deep, and I feel like that is not being addressed here as thoroughly as it ought to be.

There is a spectrum of Kenoticism in which Christianity operates. Biblical Christianity would never deny that Jesus emptied Himself. The question is always what did He empty Himself of and how did this occur. The biblical area of the spectrum has already been discussed here and it is clear that Jesus willfully chose to not utilize some of his attributes as God while here on this Earth. We know this is true because we see it in the Scripture--can God die? Well Jesus did. God the Father can't. The Holy Spirit can't. Jesus did because He took on flesh and willfully submitted Himself to that. Can God be born? Jesus was. God the Father can't be born. The Holy Spirit can't be born. Jesus was born because He took on flesh and willfully submitted Himself to that. But all of it--every single limitation--was well within His control. That is what makes Philippians 2 shine. We know that because Jesus specifically said that He could call 12 legions of angels down to rescue Him from the crucifixion. The Godhead worked in such a way that Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man, would experience certain human limitations--hunger, thirst, being tired, being hurt, suffering pain, etc, etc, etc. It is the mystery of the hypostatic union. We know these things. They are radically Christo-centric. But the heretical end of the spectrum is vastly different.

Bill Johnston and those similar teach something that is man-centered. And THAT is the crux of the whole problem with everything they teach. They teach that Christ DIVESTED Himself of His divine attributes. That word divested means that He got rid of them entirely. They teach that while on earth, Jesus was a man who operated in submission to the Father and entirely in the power of the Holy Spirit. That sounds really great on the surface, until you get to their application. Their logic: If Christ did that, and that is how we are supposed to operate, then we can do ALL (not some), but ALL the things that Christ did just by operating in faith. It is the next level of the word-of-faith movement.

Just look at their teachings. They teach that we can all heal the sick and raise the dead and that IF we have the right faith and right lifestyle, all of these abilities will be ours. I am not a cessationist (at least not a hard-core one), but this idea is ludicrous. They are saying that to the degree I act a certain way is the degree to which miracles will happen through me. They teach that Jesus purchased perfect health, healing of others, miracles, etc through His death on the cross. I literally met some of these guys while I was in Africa--they were from Bill Johnston's Church--Bethel in Redding, CA. I told them we were missionaries and they said to me, "Do you walk in signs and wonders?" They didn't care what kind of life I was living or if I was preaching the Gospel, they cared if I was doing a bunch of miracles. At this point, it is easy to see the problem. Whenever a miracle does not occur, they don't have the luxury of saying that it was God's will. They immediately have to blame themselves or others. I immediately become a 2nd-class Christian and their eyes. A poor soul who isn't walking in all the things Christ has purchased for me.

This teaching is also here, on my college campus. This guy started "healing" people. There was a guy with a broken arm and they cut the cast off and started trying to heal it--when it didn't happen, the guy said "Someone here isn't believing." Are you telling me that 500 Christians can be believing for something, but that the ONE guy who is skeptical ruined it all??? That false prophet was a liar. My God can heal a man if all the legions of hell were opposed to it and every unbeliever shouted at the top of their lungs, "I don't believe it!"

The singularly best argument I have found to counter this teaching is the Transfiguration. If EVERYTHING Jesus did was simply as a man in the power of the Spirit, then why aren't any of these leaders being transfigured? Why don't we get to see them in their glorified states? Cause it's not true. We cannot do every single thing Jesus did. That's because His divinity and His divine Attributes were being utilized to show that He was God.

Jesus Himself said that His signs proved who He was. If we are capable of doing the same things, then does that mean we prove ourselves to be God? No. That's ridiculous.

Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, the Word made flesh, who was fully God and fully man. Jesus called Himself the son of man. He came as the second Adam, a perfect man without sin, tempted in every way that we are as man.Jesus Christ was the Son of God when He walked on the earth and did not give up His divinity, neither did He use His divinity as the Son of God to overcome Satan, to cast out demons, or to heal the sick. Jesus walked in complete dependence of His heavenly Father, doing the Father's will, and performing the miraculous through faith in God and by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told His disciples that they would do the same works that He did and greater works because He would go to the Father and would send another comforter.

"The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, for he has anointed me to bring Good News to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim that captives will be released, that the blind will see, that the oppressed will be set free. " (Luke 4:18). 

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father." (Luke 14:12). 

"And these signs will accompany those who believe:In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”…(Mark 16:16-18). 

//Just look at their teachings. They teach that we can all heal the sick and raise the dead and that IF we have the right faith and right lifestyle, all of these abilities will be ours. //

Just because a certain group mis-applies or takes the kenosis too far in its application for us (if there is application for us at all) it does not mean we should water down what the kenosis is/was.

Everything Jesus did while walking on this earth, every miracle and every other wonderful but non-miraculous thing he did was because of this:

"And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.”
Mark 1:10

It should be very encouraging to us that if we have even a tiny fraction of the anointing Jesus had we too could be effective for His Kingdom. After all, we are empowered by the same Holy Spirit that empowered Him, if we will yield.

Instead, because some people get squeamish about the idea that Jesus did not perform miracles due to his own Deity (rather than by enduement by the HS) they try to water down what kenosis means.

"Just because a certain group mis-applies or takes the kenosis too far in its application for us (if there is application for us at all) it does not mean we should water down what the kenosis is/was."

"It should be very encouraging to us that if we have even a tiny fraction of the anointing Jesus had we too could be effective for His Kingdom. After all, we are empowered by the same Holy Spirit that empowered Him, if we will yield."

Amen Todd! Some groups are being presumptuous and laying hands on everything that moves. On the other extreme, others are saying that the healings have past away. (Cessationism)

Do you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you? Then the truth of the matter is that you can lay hands on the sick in faith believing the truth of the Word of God, that they will recover. The same Holy Spirit that anoints and empowers us also leads us. If He is not leading us to lay hands on a sick person we meet in Wal Mart's then we shouldn't do so. But there are times when the Holy Spirit will draw us to a person, strike up a conversation, and lead us to ask them if they are in need of prayer. When it is the Spirit leading us then we should never fear reaching out to someone.

You wrote; "Instead, because some people get squeamish about the idea that Jesus did not perform miracles due to his own Deity (rather than by enduement by the HS) they try to water down what kenosis means.”

^^^ this^^^ 🙏🏻

While I’ll admit I am somewhat skeptical of TW &BJ, it’s more due to their personalities than their claims of healings by faith...
Honestly I wonder if I would’ve been just as skeptical of Jesus had I lived in His day? (For me) it’s an honest thing to consider and not just assume with some retrospective endowment that i would’ve recognized Him for who He truly is- the scriptures bare that most didn’t.... especially the religious minded folk.

(For me) there is no evidence that Jesus preformed miracles by His deity and the whole counsel of the word clearly shows it was as you say... by the power of Holy Spirit. Just as it was with the apostles.... is it not God the Father that does these things in and thru us? Was Jesus (although He was divine) not an example of what this looked and acted like,... (forerunner) ?

It seems some believe Jesus was God "as” flesh... while others see Jesus as God "in” flesh.... tho the words are small the distinction is a gulf-

So if it’s not by the Holy Spirit then how could this be so?
6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:

A better (and sincere) question is, What did Peter give to this man that made him whole ?

Kenosis: As I have read on the subject over the years, the rub is normally contained in this thought "Jesus laid aside his divinity and functioned only as a man".

Word of Faith teachers have in their articles and preaching made a special emphasis on Jesus laying aside divinity in order to show the authority and powers inherent in being a child of God. None of this is errant as far as I can see, but what is errant is any claims or implications that arise which begin to diminish his deity.
This of course is exactly what did occur. The necessity of the 'born again Jesus' arose from this.

When I read of the temptation of Jesus in the desert immediately following his baptism, you see Jesus not shifting role from Son of God to God creator and Lord. He didn't make bread, jump off temples or gain kingdoms by a show of divinity.

Jesus consistent demonstration and revealing of the Father came in the form of continual obedience, prayer, speaking and doing what the Father willed. This laying aside of Divine prerogative (showing there were not two wills between God the Son and God the Father) but only one will in Jesus and One will to be obeyed and heeded; that was the Father's will. This laying aside is not the diminishing or suppressing of God the Son, but a demonstration that in God there is no variableness or change, there is no argument and differing agenda. So, Jesus exemplifies submission to the Father God without diminution of his deity.

"It is pretty hard to really speak conclusively when we quote articles trying to demonize someone and do not speak to the actual invidual or watch recordings in context."

"Whether he fully holds to the Full Godhead and manhood of Jesus Christ is a question that has to be asked, perhaps those who are accusing strongly on this thread can take the time to email their ministry with that specific question?"

Thank you Greg.

I appreciate what Greg said and I heartily agree.

Yet a point of discerning should be mentioned, not in retracting what I agreed to, but to clarify.

A 7 point statement of faith found on almost all Christian websites...some have 10, others 11, but overall, they all say the same thing. This is good for a start but it's not the end of our discernment.

When various preachers handle the subjects of Kenosis, the trinity, original sin etc. their sermons can greatly deviate from their simple statement of faith. In short, contradictory messages are given out. So, one can say "they're orthodox" but listening to their sermons..."They're not orthodox."

When a sermon or a series of lectures are given and they begin to greatly deviate from orthodox Christianity, they cannot be said to be orthodox no matter what their statement of faith may say. Word of Faith preachers have done this for decades.

Remember too, a great many of these hot-shot ministers will never answer directly any requests for clarification, nor will they respond back to you. You are too small and of too little importance to matter to them.
Some it may be will respond and that is great.

It's important to note that power preachers are not in their positions because of orthodoxy, but in many case there because they are not in orthodoxy, they are there because they fill a need with a kind of people.

I don't agree with many of these preachers teach, but why is that view "dangerous" and "heresy"?

Without knowing the term Kenosis or what these men teach on the subject, i quite have the same view..

I don't think Jesus was omnipresent when he is on earth. Is the baby Jesus omnipotent? either he is and just withhold it or not that time is i think is not a big issue..

Actually Jesus on the flesh, demonstrate more the power of God. It's like having limitations yet having to fulfill being sinless and perform miracles.

As Zac Poonen said, Jesus walking on the water if not a miracle at all, unless he did it by the power of the Holy Spirit..

Again,

The danger of poor understanding of Kenosis is the application for us. The belief is that we should be able to do everything that Jesus did. EVERYTHING. I have had first-hand encounters, discussions, debates, etc with guys who believe that Jesus did not have His deity from His birth until after the resurrection.

This is a HUGE deal. They claim that I should be able to heal everyone, prophesy over everyone, discern everything, etc, etc, etc IF I am truly walking in faith. They teach that the degree you are able to do that is the degree in which you are filled with the Spirit.

I am not going to argue against Zac Poonen, but we need to be really careful. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God. If a man performs a miracle, it is by the power of God that it happens. So to say that what Jesus did couldn't be a miracle if His deity caused it is splitting a fine hair. Jesus, as God, walked on water. It's not a miracle. Jesus as God in the flesh (and the Bible says that God was manifested in the flesh), did it through the Holy Spirit, therefore it is a miracle? God isn't grappling with Himself here. The Trinity is of one Mind, not many.

Jesus forgave sins. Can YOU do that? Can YOU redeem a man or woman who has sinned by your pardon? Can YOU be transfigured here and now? No. We can do none of those things. I don't care if you submit every second of every day to the Holy Spirit and believe everything the Bible says perfectly. You have not the authority to do it.

This very core issue of authority is one of the reasons why there was a reformation in the first place. The papal powers had usurped the very authority of Christ for their own, distributed it to their cronies and made everyone else 2nd-class Christians. This same thing is creeping up today. It makes me sick.

Here is a link to a video where Bill Johnson is preaching.

https://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=15854

Sorry it isn't on youtube or something, but just listen to the whole thing.

The deity of Jesus Christ is not a light matter that Jesus was both fully god and fully man is one of the most fundamental things in Christianity it makes us different from all the cults
The reason the whole kenotic Christ issue is relevant is that it puts people like Todd white and bill Johnson into the cult like category as denying any fundamental doctrine.

Also a teacher may have the fundamental orthodox statements on there website that does not mean that they abide by those statements as what they teach and in there literature may go against that.

For over 300 hundread years Christian fought doctrines such as Arianism , ebonites, montanism , modalism

Just because some of these early heresies are being dressed up in a new disguise. Kenosism is a heresy that dates from the early 19th century

Can't we contend earnestly for the faith that was once given unto the saints.

The problem is with these ministries Jesus does not get the glory men do .

Honest question...
from your understanding, why do the apostles continuously make a clear distinction between God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ in their writings ?

JFW,

To avoid the Oneness heresy. What if they didn't make a distinction? You'd end up with theology that stated that God the Father died on the cross. Definitely not what we want.

The Trinity is One, distinct, different, and the same.

Dominic-

I think Bill J and Todd W likely believe the same thing about the kenosis as mainstream Christianity. They just take the APPLICATION way further than is warranted. They do not think Jesus was not divine in the flesh, they just would say he divested himself of his "Omni” attributes while in the flesh. If you can find some proof that either of them think that Jesus gave up his actual deity while he was in the flesh, please provide that proof.

But they use the idea of kenosis to compare Jesus to us because we do not have access to the "Omni” attributes either. The problem with that idea is that Jesus was sinless which allowed him to walk in perfect communion with the Farher and NEVER quenched the Holy Spirit.

However, bottom line, we can indeed be filled with the same Holy Spirit that filled Jesus and we should operate as if that is actually true, and we should do so far more often than we actually do.

Hi Havok: Jurgen Moltmann wrote a book called the Crucified God. Moltmann declares Jesus being fully God, was crucified not only as a man but as God too. God taking death into himself. I read this about 15 years ago, very few folks are reflective enough in their studies to raise even the question of God being crucified. He's a liberation-theologian, no doubt due to his prison camp experiences that framed the beginning of his Christian walk.

I do not agree with his final conclusions of a crucified God, but I did gain some great insights of the cross from his book. I'm not recommending it for the average Christian, but those who are mature in their faith with a good grasp on central doctrines may be taught some good thing as I was.

I believe a 'crucified God' is abhorrant, and so is Kenosis in the way Jesus divinity is minimized or in some cases thought to have been 'attained'.

When you have derivative ministries who have taken their cues from W.O.F. teachers it is no wonder they pick up these theological errors in support of other doctrines they preach. This is the crux of course, Kenosis by itself is like an engine sitting on blocks, all that potential and no way to use it. But Kenosis is not a stand alone doctrine, its real usage is to empower other doctrines or teachings that the preacher is trying to convey.

I call your attention to a sermon in which Paris Reidhead addresses this subject- the title of that sermon would not give you an indication that Pastor Reidhead would do so.

http://followthelamb.net/25/SID25066.mp3 This is found on section 6 of his sermons. Title 'How to know you are filled with the Holy Spirit'
At the very beginning of his message he begins to explains.

He also points us to F.B. Myers book 'The Christ Life for the self life'....page 87 under the chapter 'Anointing of the Holy Spirit.'

What a mighty God we serve! Eileen

Hi again Havok: you wrote some thought provoking posts so I wanted to respond.

You said...This is a HUGE deal. They claim that I should be able to heal everyone, prophesy over everyone, discern everything, etc, etc, etc IF I am truly walking in faith. They teach that the degree you are able to do that is the degree in which you are filled with the Spirit.

This extreme teaching has an origin in my opinion.

Some may disagree strongly, but I'll just offer my thoughts.
Extreme teaching like this is born of the flesh and it's motivated by the desire to gain disciples after themselves.
In short, the idea of "you will have more power, more wow in your step, more influence over people, more ways to acquire what you want in life" all of this in order to "be like Jesus?" No, not at all but to be like the 'super christian' that has been offered to them. To be a 'somebody' in the midst of low-brow low-faith people.
And again, the reason? To sell more tapes and CDs

That’s an interesting take, that "they did this to avoid heresy”- actually it’s Holy Spirit who authors the text, no?
But continuing with your line of thought,... if this is indeed the case, why do you believe so many other heresies were left unchecked, able to form and grow causing untold damage to the cause of Christ? For surely there are many heresies derived from misinterpreting the scriptures, why would this particular one warrant special attention?
And you you think that the Apostles actually made this distinction consciously as a group to this specific ends? Meaning do you believe it was something they foresaw, discussed and planned?

Absolutely, JFW.

Galatians, Colossians, 1 Corinthians, 1 John, Jude, 1 & 2 Timothy, and Titus (not to mention others) have specific verses that deal with heresies, particularly gnosticism. God's Word is perfect and designed to teach and train us. We also have a Holy Spirit that leads us into all truth.

Also, I am a strong believer in plenary inspiration. I think that because of the Sovereignty of God that the situations and specifics involved in the letters of the Scriptures were both written by men who were in full control of their writing, but orchestrated by God who is in full control of their lives.

TMK,

Bill Johnson not believe in similar things to mainstream (assuming orthodoxy is mainstream) Christianity. Just check out the video I posted. I have heard it from the mouths of people who go to Bethel or who listen to them extensively, and even in sermons.

Kenoticism is a heresy born out of the 19th century, but with seeds planted in the 300s by Arian heretics.

Scripture should be of higher value
If the holy spirit does not line up with what the Bible says then it is not the holy spirit
How can one contradict the other

Thank you for your honesty:)
We ultimately disagree but that is most likely due to our having different fundamental doctrines- but I do appreciate your responding.

JFW,

I enjoy discussions like this. What I enjoy more though is knowing that someday, I won't even care to have a discussion like this because all sin and evil and lack of wisdom on my part will all pass away. We will look to Christ, our life, and forever be enamored with Him.

John 5:30
30 "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Jesus the humble servant. Relying on his Father and the Holy spirit. "I can do nothing on my own".

Through prayer and meditation, (Joshua 1:8) may we learn to rely on our God, and that we can 'do nothing on our own'.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

I find it sad when people question the canon of scripture over revelation
As we go into some forms of mysticism

Can you endure sound doctrine as the abhorrence for sound doctrine is like the plague during this generation.
Having a right view of Jesus the messiah is important and this is not a light matter

Heresies regarding Jesus and the trinity
Heresies
Adoptionism - God granted Jesus powers and then adopted him as a Son.
Albigenses - Reincarnation and two gods: one good and other evil.
Apollinarianism - Jesus' divine will overshadowed and replaced the human.
Arianism - Jesus was a lesser, created being.
Docetism - Jesus was divine but only seemed to be human.
Donatism - Validity of sacraments depends on character of the minister.
Eutychianism - Jesus finite human nature is swallowed up in His infinite divine nature.
Gnosticism - Dualism of good and bad and special knowledge for salvation.
Kenosis - Jesus gave up some divine attributes while on earth.
Marcionism - An evil God of the O.T., good God of the N.T. 11, books in the Canon
Modalism - God is one person in three modes.
Monarchianism - God is one person.
Monophysitism - Jesus had only one nature: divine.
Nestorianism - Jesus was two persons.
Patripassionism - The Father suffered on the cross.
Pelagianism - Man is unaffected by the fall and can keep all of God's laws.
Semi-Pelagianism - Man and God cooperate to achieve man's salvation.
Socinianism - Denial of the Trinity. Jesus is a deified man.
Subordinationism - The Son is lesser than the Father in essence and or attributes.
Tritheism - The Trinity is really three separate gods

From Carm
https://carm.org/heresies

Another good resource is
Hijacking the Historical Jesus https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008LE6E70/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_gllNCbJH02EM4

Dom your posts are pretty vague. Who here is promoting any of these heresies?

Bill Johnson , Todd white that has been the whole thing this heresy of the kenotic Christ is common maybe you did not read my original post where I actually post quotes from there books and YouTube videos actually stating this

Do you want me to post the original articles or the original quotes from the books

The teaching generally goes like as in Jesus just used the holy spirit to do all the amazing things that he did and you can use the same power to do the same things

As I will be at work until 9pm I may not be able to post as quickly

Todd,

You wrote:
"Everything Jesus did while walking on this earth, every miracle and every other wonderful but non-miraculous thing he did was because of this:
‘And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.’ Mark 1:10”

You have left out God the Father. When you leave out God the Father, you have presented Jesus as acting independently on His own by the power of the Holy Spirit.

But Jesus was totally dependent on His Father. He was in the Father and the Father in Him. He did nothing independently, on His own.

"Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5:19 NASB)

"… I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.” (John 8:28 NASB)

"Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father” (John 10:32 NASB)

"For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.” (John 12:49 NASB)

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.” (John 14:10)

And you wrote:
"It should be very encouraging to us that if we have even a tiny fraction of the anointing Jesus had we too could be effective for His Kingdom. After all, we are empowered by the same Holy Spirit that empowered Him, if we will yield.”

Where is Jesus?

Jesus said:
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5).

If we are not in Christ and He is not in us, we are just independent withered branches fit only for the fire (John 15:6). We would have made the same error as Adam, to be like God in ourselves by the Holy Spirit.

Matt. 7:22-23 ”“
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

I was trying to state the wrong kind of thinking in which the kenotic Christ is used
The word anointing is the same word as the word Messiah
So when Jesus says that there will be false messiahs

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

Jade:

The way we totally rely on the Father is by the power of the HS. Isn’t that how Jesus did it? Also- the Holy Spirit and Spirit of Jesus is used interchangeably in the NT. I am not leaving anything out of the equation. All 3 are necessary- I thought that was obvious.

Dom- you don’t need to do that. I just wanted to make sure you weren’t accusing me or someone else here of some heresy.

Todd,

It is often not obvious.

David Wilkerson was concerned enough to preach a sermon on the "Christ-less” Pentecost.

I posted this before on another thread:

Sermon: CHRISTLESS PENTECOST by David Wilkerson

Part 1: http://ia800502.us.archive.org/9/items/SERMONINDEX_SID0317/SID0317.mp3

Part 2: http://ia800504.us.archive.org/7/items/SERMONINDEX_SID0318/SID0318.mp3

"The Spirit has come to exalt Christ, to bring all mankind to the truth that Christ alone is Lord. The Spirit is not joy……not peace……not comfort……not truth. Christ is.”

--------------------

Note it is "MANY” in Matt. 7:22.

Many want miracles. How many wants Jesus Himself?

Many want to see miracles. How many sees the sign that Jesus is the Son of God and believe in Him and have life in His name?

John 20:30-31 ”“
Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

After the feeding of the five thousand, Jesus told the people:

John 6:26-27 ”“
"Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

Verse 35 ”“
Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.”

Many exalt miracles. How many exalts Christ?

This is the divine order:

John 14:20 ”“
………I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

John 17:23 ”“
I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity………

Eph. 2:18 ”“
for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

POWER AND TESTIMONY

Acts 1:8 ”“
but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.

John 14:20 ”“
In that day (comment: i.e. in that day when the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us) you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

1 John 5:11-12 ”“
And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 1:2 ”“
The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

Acts 4:33 ”“
And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.

Our testimony is the testimony of Christ’s resurrection life in us, of Christ in us.

Many want the Holy Spirit to perform miracles. How many wants the Holy Spirit to form Christ in us?

Jesus emptied Himself to be filled with the Father Himself.

So, we must empty ourselves, so that Jesus can fill us with Himself.

The role of the Holy Spirit:

John 14:16 ”“
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

The Holy Spirit is given so that Christ can be in us. Christ lives and works in us through the Holy Spirit in us.

Just as the Father lived and worked in Christ through the Holy Spirit in Him.

Todd i view movements in such as bethel and Todd white, Hillsong in the same category as the Jehovahs witnesses or the mormans as this error is in the same line as Arianism

Are view of Christ is important this not a light matter that was I simply posted those other heresies up there because this is in the same vane

Todd the holy spirit and the spirit of Jesus are not used interchangeably this is heresy denying the deity of the holy spirit and his personhood as the trinity is a non debatable issue.

H
Branch in vine
The verses you use do not back up your position. Jesus did not empty himself of his deity
I want you to look up a doctrine called the hypostatic union that Jesus was both fully god and fully man
Hypostatic union
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypostatic_union?wprov=sfla1

Phil 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. note

Note verse 6 , this denotes that jesus deity and in verse 7 that he took on a human nature .
The hypostatic union
The humbling

The Greek word servant is actually slave doulou δούλου

His humbling was taking on the human nature and dying on the cross

Three minute theology gives a proper understanding of kenosis
https://youtu.be/5kN6D6RFqLA

There is no where in scripture where it states Jesus was not both fully god and fully man

You also forget that the holy spirit is God aswell

The verse you actually quoted is John 14:17 not 16 😀

John 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. note

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

You will note that he that loves my words or he that loves my commandments verse 23 we will come and abide with him.

The basis for this idea in scripture is not there

The elevation church , Hillsong, bethel and the narsaccistic generations should read this passage

2 Timothy 3
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. (Compare)

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, note

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. note note

9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, note

11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

For I know that as you pray for me and the Spirit of Jesus Christ helps me, this will lead to my deliverance. Phil. 1:19

But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.) Rom 8:9

And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God. Rom 8:10

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Why do I have to defend simple doctrines such as the trinity as a Christian Todd do you believe in the trinity

The version you have used here is a paraphrase it is the NLT

To me these verses are not clear cut

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: note

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. note note

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. note

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. note

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Context matters
Essentially god is spirit this would be more a verse confirming his deity rather stating that the holy spirit and Jesus are interchangeable as you have so many other verses which mention the holy spirit

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 14:26

Did Jesus send his own spirit as we have a problems with this verse

They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
Acts 2:3-4

But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
Jude 1:20-21

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30

Do not debate the issue of the fact of the trinity as that would be regarded as heretical as God the father , god the son and god the holy spirit are all mentioned as separate persons it is a fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith it would put you in the cult catagory

Dominic,

Certainly, Jesus was God when He was on earth.

He said to the Jews:
John 8:58 ”“ "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

Connect this with:
Ex. 3:14 ”“
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

John 10:33 ”“
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

But though Jesus was God, He did not exercise His own deity when He was on earth. He divested himself of the independent "self” and became totally dependent on His Father (John 5:19, John 8:28, John 10:32, John 12:49, John 14:10).

He was filled with the Holy Spirit (Mark 1:10).
He was led by the Holy Spirit (Mark 1:13).
He lived and worked through His Father in Him (John 14:10).

His life was His Father’s divine life in Him.
His words were His Father’s powerful words in Him.
His wisdom was His Father’s supreme wisdom in Him.
His power was His Father’s matchless power in Him.
His work was His Father working mightily in and through Him.

He showed us how a man must live:

Gal. 2:20 ”“
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

ADD:

Jesus was God but He was also man when He was on earth. But He was the heavenly man. The ruler of the world (Satan) had NOTHING in Him (John 14:30). He never fell away from God into the sinful life of "flesh" as Adam did.

It is such a hard concept to grasp the Hypostatic Union but the thing is this is a fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith the Muslims believe that Jesus was just a man , a prophet.
The jehovahs witnesses believe that Jesus was the first created being that he is the arch angel michael that was recreated as Jesus.

The new age view is that Jesus took on the Christ consciousness at his baptism
Are view about Christ or the messiah is

What I have a problem with this Kenotic view is that when I am talking with a Muslim of why Jesus is both fully god and fully man.

Christology for the first three hundreds years of Christianity this topic was debated

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The word lord is the same word as the word kurious which is the same word Yahweh in the Greek Septuaginta

Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Jesus did exercise his own deity this is the big problem that I have with the Kenotic view as it sounds so much like the Christ conciseness view that the new age promote that Jesus took on his deity at his baptism which is completely against scripture

Jesus did not empty himself of his deity and use the Holy Spirit to do his miracles as Jesus was of virgin birth

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

The view that

I have no problem being filled with the Holy Spirit as the bible commands it but my problem is that Jesus was born as a man . Jesus was both fully god and fully man from birth.

John - Chapter 1
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

I wish you understand why I view this as serious because when you are speaking to cults or other faiths or the new age.
They all have a view of Jesus but it is wrong. Jesus was Jewish , he lived in the first century. The word Christ means messiah it is not his surname. Messiah also means anointed one.
The messiah has its context in the Old Testament.

I loathe the idea that Jesus took on his deity and that Jesus was a man but living purely by the Holy Spirit the idea that the Kenotic Christ view promotes so that if you live a holy life like Jesus you can be righteous as well , it makes me sick to my stomach and remind me more of a new age view of Jesus than a biblical one.
In the Kenotic view the Holy Spirit is more a force rather than a third person of the trinity like in Hinduism.
It denigrates the view of the trinity and denigrates Jesus the Kenotic view

//The version you have used here is a paraphrase it is the NLT

To me these verses are not clear cut///

Philippians 1:19 For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, (NKJV)

Rom 8:9-10 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.(NKJV)

FYI- the NLT is a translation, not a paraphrase. You may not like it which is perfectly fine but its not a paraphrase.

No one here Dom (at least not me) is denying the Trinity in any way shape or form.

"The third of the works of the Holy Spirit which have so wonderfully demonstrated His power, are attestation works. I mean by this”“works of witnessing. When Jesus Christ went into the stream of baptism in the river Jordan, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him like a dove and proclaimed Him God’s Beloved Son. That is what I style an attestation work. And when afterwards Jesus Christ raised the dead, when He healed the leper, when He spoke to diseases and they fled, when demons rushed in thousands from those who were possessed of them, it was done by the power of the Spirit. The Spirit dwelt in Jesus without measure and by that power all those miracles were worked. These were attestation works." ~~Charles Spurgeon

I have worked in the Christian bookshop for years it is generally regarded as a paraphrase as it is not a direct word for word translation it is regarded as dynamic equivilant.

From Tyndale the publisher

What method did the translators use in making the NLT?
The translators of the New Living Translation set out to render the message of the original texts of Scripture into clear, contemporary English. As they did so, they translated as simply and literally as possible when that approach yielded an accurate, clear, and natural English text. Many words and phrases were rendered literally and consistently into English, preserving essential literary and rhetorical devices, ancient metaphors, and word choices that give structure to the text and provide echoes of meaning from one passage to the next.

On the other hand, the translators rendered the message more dynamically when the literal rendering was hard to understand, was misleading, or yielded archaic or foreign wording. They clarified difficult metaphors and terms to aid in the reader’s understanding. The translators first struggled with the meaning of the words and phrases in the ancient context; then they rendered the message into clear, natural English. Their goal was to be both faithful to the ancient texts and eminently readable. The result is a translation that is both exegetically accurate and idiomatically powerful. More than 90 Bible scholars, along with a group of accomplished English stylists, worked closely together toward that goal. In the end, the NLT is the result of precise scholarship conveyed in living, contemporary language.
https://www.tyndale.com/about-the-nlt

Nkjv and RSV and ESV are regarded more as word for word translations , what is confusing is that they use different greek texts and the KJV uses another greek text for its translation

The reason I do not like it when talking about subjects like this it is does not correspond to the Greek

With those verses I thought you were trying to prove that the holy spirit is the spirit of christ and I was trying to state that they are all individual persons . One god in three persons

I was also trying to say the verses in context have a different meaning

I have been following this discussion and looking into scripture in the background. There are some pretty absolute statements in scripture. Some have been mentioned in this thread, some have not, but I think looking at all of them together might be good.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

These verses state that Jesus did the things that He did because of the anointing of the Holy Spirit. It was because God was with Him, not Him as God that did these things by His own power.

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

We know that the Greek translated as "made himself of no reputation” is kenoo and means to make empty, hollow, or void. To deprive of force or render of no effect. This word is used in 1 Cor. 1:17 speaking of making the cross of none effect and in 2 Cor. 9:3 speaking of our boasting being in vain. Rom. 4:14 of faith being made void and in 1 Cor. 9:15 of Paul’s glorying being void.

So the Greek speaks of Jesus emptying Himself. The question would then be, "Of what did He empty Himself?”

Acts 10:38-39 would imply that He emptied Himself of the ability to do any works of Himself without God being with Him in the form of the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

This is further verified in Hebrews 2. The writer says that man (by implication Adam and Eve) was made a little lower than the angels but was crowned with a degree of glory and honor, being placed in dominion over the works of God’s hands. But right now we do not see this dominion. (We know the reason for this was sin and it is made clear later in this chapter). But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels. Notice that Jesus was made just like man, and for a purpose. That He might suffer death for man. Now in vs. 16-17 we see this. "16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”

So the writer of Hebrews says that in all things it behoved him to be made like us. It did not say, "In physical body only but not in any other way”, but "In all things”. The reason given in verse 18 is so that He might be tempted and thus have the ability to give us help in temptation.

Scripture says that Jesus was in all points tempted like we are. This was not simply a semantic exercise in which God, who cannot be tempted by anything, was symbolically tempted. The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life were very real temptations that Jesus endured and defeated. So, He is able to give us victory over temptation as well.

1 Corinthians makes it clear that it was necessary that Jesus come as a man in order to atone for the sins of man.

So there are some pretty direct scriptural statements that speak to this topic, and some indirect evidences as well. For example, at His baptism we see the Spirit of God descending upon Jesus. It is immediately after this that He is led of the Spirit into the wilderness and afterwards tempted. It is only after His baptism that we see any recorded miracles.

One major difference in Jesus and us is found in John 3:34. We receive the Spirit of God by measure. Paul talks about the grace (anointing or empowerment) given to every man in Ephesians 4 as well as other places. Every man is anointed or empowered by the Holy Spirit of God by measure. Jesus anointing was without measure. Perhaps I am anointed to preach. In that respect, I will find a special empowerment upon me when I am acting in that calling. Jesus was anointed without measure or limitation.

There is another absolute statement in John that I think has to come into play. In John 14:12 Jesus tells us that if we believe we will do the same works that He did. So if He healed the sick, we shall also. If He raised the dead, we shall also. The reason this will happen is because He goes to the Father. If you study the surrounding context you see that the significance of this statement is found in the fact that His going to the Father is necessary so He can send us the Holy Spirit to indwell us, just as Jesus was also filled with the Spirit.

Saying these things in no way diminishes the identity of Jesus Christ nor the fact that He was God (He clearly was the agent of creation according to John 1 and He was and is eternal being completely outside of time as God the Son, the second person of the trinity), that He IS God, and that He forever will be God. It does not diminish the virgin birth, nor the death and resurrection. In fact, it makes these things all the more amazing that God the Son condescended to my estate that through a sinless life of obedience to His Father, death as a man and resurrection from the dead He could bring me into relationship with Him so that I might be restored as a son of God. Ephesians 1 and Jesus' prayer in John 17 show us this heart desire of God in such a fantastic way.

Jesus never emptied Himself of divine identity. He always claimed to be God and His claim was true. However He emptied Himself of divine privilege and lived a life on this Earth as a man so that He might atone for the sins of man.

He was always 100% God in identity but became 100% man in physical nature and ability while on this Earth. He was not "God in an Earth suit". He was God who condescended to my estate to bring me into His.

Yes Amen 🙏🏻
Very much the conclusions I found as well- tho perhaps you are more gracious in presenting them:)

So in Acts 3:1-6 we find Peter "giving” something which makes the lame man whole-
What is "it” that Peter "gives” that this man receives, making him whole?

I want to clarify some statements as the term Messiah (Christ) anointed one are all the same terms

The Messiah from the Jewish perspective has to be both god and man

Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this

From the old testament texts

Matt 24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

You could render the term Christ as Messiah anointed ones

The big problem that I have it follows along the new age idea of the Christ consciousness
The new age idea that Jesus the Messiah are to different identitys and you can have the Christ consciousness so that is why the whole idea of the kenotic Christ is so dangerous

Phil 3
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Notice that he is equal with god verse 6
His humbling is when he takes on his human nature and he is both 100 percent god and 100 percent man

The reason this doctrine is so vital is that the Muslims say that Jesus was only a man and the Jehovahs witnesses say the same .

The Jehovah's witnesses say that Jesus was the first created god

The dangerous thing about the kenosis doctrine it is new age it almost becomes little gods theology that we become like god that Jesus was just a man and took on the nature of God at his baptism

Which denies passages such as John 1
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not

That Jesus existed as god throughout eternity and that the trinity as existed throughout eternity

It was only in his virgin birth that he took on a human nature

Jesus is not god in identity, he is god.
The word lord that we use when we refer to the lord Jesus Christ

The word lord is the as the word Yahweh
Kuriois so when Thomas says my lord and my god
Kuriois is translated in the Greek Septuagint as Yahweh .

The reason I hate this doctrine of the kenotic Christ it reminds me of the Christ consciousness thing that is promoted by witchcraft / new age teaching

Dom-

Just to clarify- do you believe Jesus in the flesh could have healed blind men, raised dead folks, etc if he had not been filled with the Holy Soirit at his baptism?

Dom: As I was reading through this thread, there are several that have captured the right interpretation of the Philippians text and explained it masterfully. Travis most recently posted and nailed it as far as I can see.

We do have to take into consideration some times we are just dumb. Not making excuses but it's a part of human nature to flub it.

In someone's zeal to express Jesus 'anointed' life, they minimize Jesus deity so as to exemplify his human relationship with the Father, thereby attempting to show his link to the Father is just like our link with the Father. This link is the anointing of God and obedience to the Spirit of God.
Sometimes in stupidity we annul a scripture text in order to magnify another, not on purpose but because we don't always have a full grasp on the subject itself.

I want to be clear here, I'm not making excuses for heresy, but sometimes what we denote as heresy (though it may be true in letter is not true in motive) We should at least concern ourselves with discerning this.

Let me toss another bone into the pot here.

The heresy of Kenosis equating to the emptying of divinity itself not merely prerogative finds another form in another doctrine called the 'openness' doctrine. Open theism is a kissin cousin to the Kenotic teaching. We have the same lessening of divine knowledge, power, will in order to 'free up man' to do as he pleases.

Not attempting to shift topics, Im just saying little stumbles here and there can label someone an open theist as well as a denier of Jesus divinity. But are they really that consistently or because they bif it up?

*[[Phi 2:6]] OGNTk* ¬οϲ εν μορφη θ̅υ̅ υπαρχων ¬ουχ αρπαγμον ηγηϲατο ¬το ειναι ιϲα θ̅ω̅,

*[[Phi 2:7]] OGNTk* ¬αλλα εαυτον εκενωϲεν ¬μορφην δουλου λαβων, ¬εν ομοιωματι ανθρωπων γενομενοϲ· ¬και ϲχηματι ευρεθειϲ ωϲ ανθρωποϲ

μορφὴν this is the word morph or to take form
δούλου means slave
ἀνθρώπων anthrapon means human

To me from the Greek his kenosis is to take on a human nature and die on the cross for our sin

In verse 6
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

My problem with this theology it denigrates when I evangelise to a Muslim or a Jehovah's witness becuase they do not accept the deity of yeshua hamashia

It more is like the Christ consciousness doctrine promoted by the new age
https://www.yogapedia.com/definition/5806/christ-consciousness

The word Christ means Messiah anointed one, the Jews are currently looking for a Messiah now

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

I would state that this doctrine is a doctrine from the devil himself

Genesis 3

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil

The bible talks about in Matt 24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

That there will be many false Christ , you need to know this means anointed ones . the word Messiah means anointed one.

The Jewish idea of the Messiah is littered throughout the old testament such as Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this

Before you speak with me please read this book and get a true understand of Christology as our fore father's got martyred over this issue as it the first few chapters it goes into the heresys that the early church had to fight against
Hijacking the Historical Jesus https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008LE6E70/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_pT5OCbD2470WH

What makes me so sad is this doctrine or most closely related to the Christ consciousness doctrine promoted by the new age / witchcraft that Jesus took on his Christ conciusness at his baptism

I hate that it is so self centred and does not give the glory unto Jesus but unto men and you are worshipping the wrong Jesus a false Jesus a unhistorical jesus.

Simply understood his humbling was that of becoming a man and that is it we do not take on god nature when we are dwelt in with the holy spirit

As Jesus existed and eternally existed from the beginning with the trinity with god the father and the holy spirit from the beginning of time until Jesus took on a human nature at the incarnation

My hatred of this doctrine is that people use the holy spirit in a way like a force like the Jehovah's witnesses think of him not the 3rd person of the Godhead

The degradation of the holy spirit

Todd I do believe in the fillng of the holy spirit as it is in the Greek aorist tense which means it is both past present and future

__≠============{{{{{========================={={======{{={{{=====

Yeshuas baptism was the fact of his obedience to him affirming the fact that he would die on the cross for our sin.

Don my specific question was whether you believe Jesus could have performed the healings, dead raisings etc had he not been filled with the Holy Spirit.

Todd what are you trying to get at by raising this question, what are you trying to prove ?
Do you understand the seriousness of when I liken it to the new age doctrine of Christ conciusness .? Do understand the connotations how Jesus is a fufillment of the Jewish messiah (anointed one) passages through scripture which there are hundreads ?

Philliphians 2:6

Adam Clark commentary

Who, being in the form of God
This verse has been the subject of much criticism, and some controversy. Dr. Whitby has, perhaps, on the whole, spoken best on this point; but his arguments are too diffuse to be admitted here. Dr. Macknight has abridged the words of Dr. Whitby, and properly observes that, "As the apostle is speaking of what Christ was before he took the form of a servant, the form of God, of which he divested himself when he became man, cannot be any thing which he possessed during his incarnation or in his divested state; consequently neither the opinion of Erasmus, that the form of God consisted in those sparks of divinity by which Christ, during his incarnation, manifested his Godhead, nor the opinion of the Socinians, that it consisted in the power of working miracles, is well founded; for Christ did not divest himself either of one or the other, but possessed both all the time of his public ministry. In like manner, the opinion of those who, by the form of God understand the Divine nature and the government of the world, cannot be admitted; since Christ, when he became man, could not divest himself of the nature of God; and with respect to the government of the world, we are led, by what the apostle tells, Hebrews 1:3, to believe that he did not part with even that; but, in his divested state, still continued to uphold all things by the word of his power. By the form of God we are rather to understand that visible, glorious light in which the Deity is said to dwell, 1 Timothy 6:16, and by which he manifested himself to the patriarchs of old, Deuteronomy 5:22,24; which was commonly accompanied with a numerous retinue of angels, Psalms 68:17, and which in Scripture is called The Similitude, Numbers 12:8; The Face, Psalms 31:16: The Presence, Exodus 33:15; and The Shape of God, John 5:37. This interpretation is supported by the term μορφη, form, here used, which signifies a person's external shape or appearance, and not his nature or essence. Thus we are told, Mark 16:12, that Jesus appeared to his disciples in another μορφη, shape, or form. And, Matthew 17:2, μετεμορφωθη, he was transfigured before them-his outward appearance or form was changed. Farther this interpretation agrees with the fact: the form of God, that is, his visible glory, and the attendance of angels, as above described, the Son of God enjoyed with his Father before the world was, John 17:5; and on that as on other accounts he is the brightness of the Father's glory, Hebrews 1:3. Of this he divested himself when he became flesh; but, having resumed it after his ascension, he will come with it in the human nature to judge the world; he told his disciples, Matthew 16:27: The Son of man will come in the glory of his Father, with his angels, the meaning of μορθηδουλου, Philippians 2:7; which evidently denotes the appearance and behaviour of a servant or bondman, and not the essence of such a person." See Whitby and Macknight.

Thought it not robbery to be equal with God
If we take these words as they stand here, their meaning is, that, as he was from the beginning in the same infinite glory with the Father, to appear in time-during his humiliation, as God and equal with the Father, was no encroachment on the Divine prerogative; for, as he had an equality of nature, he had an equality of rights.

But the word αρπαγμον, which we translate robbery, has been supposed to imply a thing eagerly to be seized, coveted, or desired; and on this interpretation the passage has been translated: Who, being in the form of God, did not think it a matter to be earnestly desired to appear equal to God; but made himself of no reputation, does not affect the eternal Deity of our Lord. Though he was from eternity in the form of God-possessed of the same glory, yet he thought it right to veil this glory, and not to appear with it among the children of men; and therefore he was made in the likeness of men, and took upon him the form or appearance of a servant: and, had he retained the appearance of this ineffable glory, it would, in many respects, have prevented him from accomplishing the work which God gave him to do; and his humiliation, as necessary to the salvation of men, could not have been complete. On this account I prefer this sense of the word αρπαγμον before that given in our text, which does not agree so well with the other expressions in the context. In this sense the word is used by Heliodorus, in his AEthiopics, lib. vii. cap. 19, Whitby has produced, and on which he has given a considerable paraphrase. The reader who wishes to examine this subject more particularly, may have recourse to Heliodorus as above, or to the notes of Dr. Whitby on the passage.But made himself of no reputation
εαυτονεκενωσε. He emptied himself-did not appear in his glory, for he assumed the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of man. And his being made in the likeness of man, and assuming the form of a servant, was a proof that he had emptied himself-laid aside the effulgence of his glory.And being found in fashion as a man
καισχηματι ευρεθειςωςανθρωπος. This clause should be joined to the preceding, and thus translated: Being made in the likeness of man, and was found in fashion as a man.

He humbled himself
Laid himself as low as possible: 1. In emptying himself-laying aside the effulgence of his glory. 2. In being incarnate-taking upon him the human form. 3. In becoming a servant-assuming the lowest innocent character, that of being the servant of all. 4. In condescending to die, to which he was not naturally liable, as having never sinned, and therefore had a right in his human nature to immortality, without passing under the empire of death. 5. In condescending, not only to death, but to the lowest and most ignominious kind of death, the death of the cross; the punishment of the meanest of slaves and worst of felons. What must sin have been in the sight of God, when it required such abasement in Jesus Christ to make an atonement for it, and undo its influence and malignity!Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him
If by his humiliation he has merited pardon and final salvation for the whole world, is it to be wondered that the human body, in which this fulness of the Godhead dwelt, and in which the punishment due to our sins was borne upon the tree, should be exalted above all human and all created beings? And this is the fact; for he hath given him a name, τοονομα, the name, which is above every name: το is prefixed to ονομα here by ABC, 17, Origen, Dionysius Alexandrinus, Eusebius, Cyril, and Procopius. This makes it much more emphatic. According to Ephesians 1:20,21, the man Christ Jesus is exalted to the right hand of God, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come. From which it appears that no creature of God is so far exalted and so glorious as the man Christ Jesus, human nature being in him dignified infinitely beyond the angelic nature; and that this nature has an authority and pre-eminence which no being, either in heaven or earth, enjoys. In a word, as man was in the beginning at the head of all the creatures of God, Jesus Christ, by assuming human nature, suffering and dying in it, has raised it to its pristine state. And this is probably what is here meant by this high exaltation of Christ, and giving him a name which is above every name. But if we refer to any particular epithet, then the name JESUS or Saviour must be that which is intended; as no being either in heaven or earth can possess this name as he who is the Redeemer of the world does, for he is the only Saviour; none has or could redeem us to God but he; and throughout eternity he will ever appear as the sole Saviour of the human race. Hence, before his birth, Gabriel stated that his name should be called JESUS; giving for reason, he shall SAVE his people from their sins. The qualifications of the Saviour of the world were so extraordinary, the redeeming acts so stupendous, and the result of all so glorious both to God and man, that it is impossible to conceive a higher name or title than that of JESUS, or Saviour of the world.That at the name of Jesus every knee should how
That all human beings should consider themselves redeemed unto God by his blood, and look for an application of this redemption price; and that all who are saved from their sin should acknowledge him the author of their salvation. In a word, that πανεπουρανιων, all the spirits of just men made perfect, now in a state of blessedness; καιεπιγειων, all human beings still in their state of probation on earth; καικαταχθονιων, and all that are in the shades below, who have, through their own fault, died without having received his salvation; should acknowledge him.And that every tongue should confess
That all those before mentioned should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, or absolute governor, and thus glorify God the Father, who has exalted this human nature to this state of ineffable glory, in virtue of its passion, death, resurrection, and the atonement which it has made, by which so many attributes of the Divine nature have become illustrated, the Divine law magnified and made honourable, and an eternal glory provided for man.

Matt Henry commentary
.Who, being in the form of God
This verse has been the subject of much criticism, and some controversy. Dr. Whitby has, perhaps, on the whole, spoken best on this point; but his arguments are too diffuse to be admitted here. Dr. Macknight has abridged the words of Dr. Whitby, and properly observes that, "As the apostle is speaking of what Christ was before he took the form of a servant, the form of God, of which he divested himself when he became man, cannot be any thing which he possessed during his incarnation or in his divested state; consequently neither the opinion of Erasmus, that the form of God consisted in those sparks of divinity by which Christ, during his incarnation, manifested his Godhead, nor the opinion of the Socinians, that it consisted in the power of working miracles, is well founded; for Christ did not divest himself either of one or the other, but possessed both all the time of his public ministry. In like manner, the opinion of those who, by the form of God understand the Divine nature and the government of the world, cannot be admitted; since Christ, when he became man, could not divest himself of the nature of God; and with respect to the government of the world, we are led, by what the apostle tells, Hebrews 1:3, to believe that he did not part with even that; but, in his divested state, still continued to uphold all things by the word of his power. By the form of God we are rather to understand that visible, glorious light in which the Deity is said to dwell, 1 Timothy 6:16, and by which he manifested himself to the patriarchs of old, Deuteronomy 5:22,24; which was commonly accompanied with a numerous retinue of angels, Psalms 68:17, and which in Scripture is called The Similitude, Numbers 12:8; The Face, Psalms 31:16: The Presence, Exodus 33:15; and The Shape of God, John 5:37. This interpretation is supported by the term μορφη, form, here used, which signifies a person's external shape or appearance, and not his nature or essence. Thus we are told, Mark 16:12, that Jesus appeared to his disciples in another μορφη, shape, or form. And, Matthew 17:2, μετεμορφωθη, he was transfigured before them-his outward appearance or form was changed. Farther this interpretation agrees with the fact: the form of God, that is, his visible glory, and the attendance of angels, as above described, the Son of God enjoyed with his Father before the world was, John 17:5; and on that as on other accounts he is the brightness of the Father's glory, Hebrews 1:3. Of this he divested himself when he became flesh; but, having resumed it after his ascension, he will come with it in the human nature to judge the world; he told his disciples, Matthew 16:27: The Son of man will come in the glory of his Father, with his angels, the meaning of μορθηδουλου, Philippians 2:7; which evidently denotes the appearance and behaviour of a servant or bondman, and not the essence of such a person." See Whitby and Macknight.

Thought it not robbery to be equal with God
If we take these words as they stand here, their meaning is, that, as he was from the beginning in the same infinite glory with the Father, to appear in time-during his humiliation, as God and equal with the Father, was no encroachment on the Divine prerogative; for, as he had an equality of nature, he had an equality of rights.

But the word αρπαγμον, which we translate robbery, has been supposed to imply a thing eagerly to be seized, coveted, or desired; and on this interpretation the passage has been translated: Who, being in the form of God, did not think it a matter to be earnestly desired to appear equal to God; but made himself of no reputation, does not affect the eternal Deity of our Lord. Though he was from eternity in the form of God-possessed of the same glory, yet he thought it right to veil this glory, and not to appear with it among the children of men; and therefore he was made in the likeness of men, and took upon him the form or appearance of a servant: and, had he retained the appearance of this ineffable glory, it would, in many respects, have prevented him from accomplishing the work which God gave him to do; and his humiliation, as necessary to the salvation of men, could not have been complete. On this account I prefer this sense of the word αρπαγμον before that given in our text, which does not agree so well with the other expressions in the context. In this sense the word is used by Heliodorus, in his AEthiopics, lib. vii. cap. 19, Whitby has produced, and on which he has given a considerable paraphrase. The reader who wishes to examine this subject more particularly, may have recourse to Heliodorus as above, or to the notes of Dr. Whitby on the passage.But made himself of no reputation
εαυτονεκενωσε. He emptied himself-did not appear in his glory, for he assumed the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of man. And his being made in the likeness of man, and assuming the form of a servant, was a proof that he had emptied himself-laid aside the effulgence of his glory.And being found in fashion as a man
καισχηματι ευρεθειςωςανθρωπος. This clause should be joined to the preceding, and thus translated: Being made in the likeness of man, and was found in fashion as a man.

He humbled himself
Laid himself as low as possible: 1. In emptying himself-laying aside the effulgence of his glory. 2. In being incarnate-taking upon him the human form. 3. In becoming a servant-assuming the lowest innocent character, that of being the servant of all. 4. In condescending to die, to which he was not naturally liable, as having never sinned, and therefore had a right in his human nature to immortality, without passing under the empire of death. 5. In condescending, not only to death, but to the lowest and most ignominious kind of death, the death of the cross; the punishment of the meanest of slaves and worst of felons. What must sin have been in the sight of God, when it required such abasement in Jesus Christ to make an atonement for it, and undo its influence and malignity!Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him
If by his humiliation he has merited pardon and final salvation for the whole world, is it to be wondered that the human body, in which this fulness of the Godhead dwelt, and in which the punishment due to our sins was borne upon the tree, should be exalted above all human and all created beings? And this is the fact; for he hath given him a name, τοονομα, the name, which is above every name: το is prefixed to ονομα here by ABC, 17, Origen, Dionysius Alexandrinus, Eusebius, Cyril, and Procopius. This makes it much more emphatic. According to Ephesians 1:20,21, the man Christ Jesus is exalted to the right hand of God, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come. From which it appears that no creature of God is so far exalted and so glorious as the man Christ Jesus, human nature being in him dignified infinitely beyond the angelic nature; and that this nature has an authority and pre-eminence which no being, either in heaven or earth, enjoys. In a word, as man was in the beginning at the head of all the creatures of God, Jesus Christ, by assuming human nature, suffering and dying in it, has raised it to its pristine state. And this is probably what is here meant by this high exaltation of Christ, and giving him a name which is above every name. But if we refer to any particular epithet, then the name JESUS or Saviour must be that which is intended; as no being either in heaven or earth can possess this name as he who is the Redeemer of the world does, for he is the only Saviour; none has or could redeem us to God but he; and throughout eternity he will ever appear as the sole Saviour of the human race. Hence, before his birth, Gabriel stated that his name should be called JESUS; giving for reason, he shall SAVE his people from their sins. The qualifications of the Saviour of the world were so extraordinary, the redeeming acts so stupendous, and the result of all so glorious both to God and man, that it is impossible to conceive a higher name or title than that of JESUS, or Saviour of the world.That at the name of Jesus every knee should how
That all human beings should consider themselves redeemed unto God by his blood, and look for an application of this redemption price; and that all who are saved from their sin should acknowledge him the author of their salvation. In a word, that πανεπουρανιων, all the spirits of just men made perfect, now in a state of blessedness; καιεπιγειων, all human beings still in their state of probation on earth; καικαταχθονιων, and all that are in the shades below, who have, through their own fault, died without having received his salvation; should acknowledge him.And that every tongue should confess
That all those before mentioned should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, or absolute governor, and thus glorify God the Father, who has exalted this human nature to this state of ineffable glory, in virtue of its passion, death, resurrection, and the atonement which it has made, by which so many attributes of the Divine nature have become illustrated, the Divine law magnified and made honourable, and an eternal glory provided for man.

Dom-

I am just trying to get your honest opinion.

I’ve already expressed mine: Jesus in the flesh could do nothing miraculous if he had not been filled with the Holy Spirit. In the flesh he had no access to his divine attributes. I am not denying his divinity, just his access. That is what kenosis means.

I am just trying to get your opinion so I can get clear in my mind what you think about this. I’m not trying to trick you.

To presume this you would have to denote doctrines like the virgin birth. As he was both god and man from the incarnation.
This is why it causes trouble.
Have you done any courses on Christology as you would not ask me questions like this if you had ?
As the premise and the way that you think about Jesus
It would bring up questions like do you think different members in the role in the trinity do they hold different powers which would be incorrect . To be one god in three persons they would all have the powers to do miracles.

I believe he was constantly filled with the holy spirit as being part of the god head

I don't think we can even begin to say that Jesus had no access to His divinity until filled with the Spirit.

How else could he have walked in sinless perfection? How could he have possibly known "to be about [His] Father's business" at the age of 12? These are not things mere morality bring--instead, they are the mark of a God-Man (fully God and fully man).

Here is the thing: we need to understand that Jesus was not a victim to the incarnation. You do realize that He planned this, right? Any limitations were self-imposed and decided beforehand. And no one is denying that Jesus had limitations, but again they were self-imposed. He could have removed them at any time, but since the will of God doesn't toss around like a wave on an ocean, it was utterly consistent.

The other aspect to this is that the incarnation IS a mystery. There are things about the very nature of Jesus that we cannot wrap our minds around. We need to be careful when defining every little thing.

Penultimately, I cannot think of anywhere in the Scripture that says Jesus couldn't do miracles unless filled with the Spirit. But I think it is a poor question anyway--everything that happened to Jesus was intentional. There was no alternative. So to guess or question with what if's is frivolous.

Finally, the heresy of Kenoticism may not appear to be all the big of a deal when we are talking about the workings of the "how" of the incarnation; however, it becomes abundantly clear with the application of the doctrine. Kenoticism is doctrine by implication only. You don't find more than a smattering of verses that COULD suggest it, but then you don't find a single apostle living strictly by it. All in all, I think it is just the next evolution of Word-of-Faith teachers, because they've got to come up with something bigger, bolder, and grander in order to maintain a following of people who are being fed a load of trash.

Dom-

Why are you bringing up the virgin birth? No one has denied that- at least not me.

Even Spurgeon believed that the works Jesus did were by the power of the Holy Spirit- I posted that quote a while back.

If you think Jesus, as a man, could have worked his miracles without being filled with the Spirit, that's perfectly fine. I'm not going to yell at you or anything. Based on my reading of the Gospels, and the timing of his temptation and miracles, I do not believe He could have. But I cannot prove it because all his miracles were done when he was filled with Spirit, i.e. there is no miracle recorded prior to his baptism. I am not even denying He could have accessed his divine attributes if he had desired to do so, but He would have been sinning. And yes, I do believe that Jesus could have sinned; I believe he was truly tested on all points, but resisted every time, as Hebrews points out. I don't buy the idea of "impeccability."

Okay, Greg. How do you suggest this discussion should have gone? How do I warn other believers about certain influential individuals who publicly lay out their teachings for the whole world to hear?

Todd did you understand what I said and to say that Jesus could sin

What do you with passage
Luke 1
40 And went into the house of Zacharias and took Elisabeth in her arms.

41 And when the voice of Mary came to the ears of Elisabeth, the baby made a sudden move inside her; then Elisabeth was full of the Holy Spirit,

42 And she said with a loud voice: May blessing be on you among women, and a blessing on the child of your body.

43 How is it that the mother of my Lord comes to me?

44 For, truly, when the sound of your voice came to my ears, the baby in my body made a sudden move for joy.

Then this passage
Matt 1

22 Now all this took place so that the word of the Lord by the prophet might come true,

23 See, the virgin will be with child, and will give birth to a son, and they will give him the name Immanuel, that is, God with us.

As the whole aspect of the virgin was to produce a perfect human nature , the second adam and the fact of the incarnation is that Jesus was both fully god and fully man

If Jesus could sin then he can't be the perfect sacrifice for our sins , if he is not both fully god and man
He can't be a substitute for our sins and he cant take the wrath of God for the human race if he was just a man.
The implications of saying that Jesus could sin are problematic and down right heretical at best

Todd do you understand the doctrine of the trinity and the incarnation , I have been worried about previous talks I think with subject like evolution and why the bible is a historical and science book

I was bought up in a charasmatic background so I know

My damaging thing with this doctrine is the similarlity to new age/ witchcraft doctrine of the Christ conciusness as that is what they teach

I thought that realising that the holy spirit is part of the trinity and that Jesus always existed before time with him and why should he not as his incarnation

Greg how about this passage 😀😀😀😀😀
Jesus is alot more graphic in the book of revelation
As this is just from Paul's letters
1 Corinthians 6
2 Is it not certain that the saints will be the judges of the world? if then the world will be judged by you, are you unable to give a decision about the smallest things?

3 Is it not certain that we are to be the judges of angels? how much more then of the things of this life?

4 If then there are questions to be judged in connection with the things of this life, why do you put them in the hands of those who have no position in the church?

5 I say this to put you to shame. Is there not among you one wise man who may be able to give a decision between his brothers?

6 But a brother who has a cause at law against another takes it before Gentile judges.

7 More than this, it is not to your credit to have causes at law with one another at all. Why not put up with wrong? why not undergo loss?

8 So far from doing this, you yourselves do wrong and take your brothers' property.

9 Have you not knowledge that evil-doers will have no part in the kingdom of God? Have no false ideas about this: no one who goes after the desires of the flesh, or gives worship to images, or is untrue when married, or is less than a man, or makes a wrong use of men,

10 Or is a thief, or the worse for drink, or makes use of strong language, or takes by force what is not his, will have any part in the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you; but you have been washed, you have been made holy, you have been given righteousness in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

2Ti 4:10 For Demas has gone away from me, for love of this present life, and has gone to Thessalonica: Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia

2 Tim 4
14 Alexander the copper-worker did me much wrong: the Lord will give him the reward of his works:

15 But be on the watch for him, for he was violent in his attacks on our teaching.

16 At my first meeting with my judges, no one took my part, but all went away from me. May it not be put to their account.

Jude 1
1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and the brother of James, to those of God's selection who have been made holy by God the Father and are kept safe for Jesus Christ:

2 May mercy and peace and love be increased in you.

3 My loved ones, while my thoughts were full of a letter which I was going to send you about our common salvation, it was necessary for me to send you one requesting you with all my heart to go on fighting strongly for the faith which has been given to the saints once and for ever.

4 For certain men have come among you secretly, marked out before in the holy Writings for this evil fate, men without the fear of God, turning his grace into an unclean thing, and false to our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5 Now it is my purpose to put you in mind, though you once had knowledge of all these things, of how the Lord, having taken a people safely out of Egypt, later sent destruction on those who had no faith;

6 And the angels who did not keep to their kingdom but went out from the place which was theirs, he has put in eternal chains and in dark night till the great day of the judging.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the towns near them, having like these, given themselves up to unclean desires and gone after strange flesh, have been made an example, undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

8 In the same way these dreamers make the flesh unclean, having no respect for authorities, and say evil of rulers.

9 Now when Michael, one of the chief angels, was fighting against the Evil One for the body of Moses, fearing to make use of violent words against him, he only said, May the Lord be your judge.

10 But these men say evil about such things as they have no knowledge of; and the things of which they have natural knowledge, like beasts without reason, are the cause of their destruction.

11 A curse on them! They have gone in the way of Cain, running uncontrolled into the error of Balaam for reward, and have come to destruction by saying evil against the Lord, like Korah.

12 These men are unseen rocks at your love-feasts, when they take part in them with you, keepers of sheep who without fear take the food of the sheep; clouds without water rushing before the wind, wasted trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots,

13 Violent waves of the sea, streaming with their shame, wandering stars for whom the darkest night is kept in store for ever.

14 The prophet Enoch, who was the seventh after Adam, said of these men, The Lord came with tens of thousands of his saints,

15 To be the judge of all, and to give a decision against all those whose lives are unpleasing to him, because of the evil acts which they have done, and because of all the hard things which sinners without fear of God have said against him.

16 These are the men who make trouble, ever desiring change, going after evil pleasures, using high-sounding words, respecting men's position in the hope of reward.

17 But you, my loved ones, keep in memory the words which were said before by the Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,

18 How they said to you, In the last days there will be men who, guided by their evil desires, will make sport of holy things.

19 These are the men who make divisions, natural men, not having the Spirit.

20 But you, my loved ones, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, and making prayers in the Holy Spirit,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for life eternal through the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ.

22 And have pity on those who are in doubt;

23 And to some give salvation, pulling them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the clothing which is made unclean by the flesh.

24 Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to give you a place in his glory, free from all evil, with great joy,

25 To the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, let us give glory and honour and authority and power, before all time and now and for ever. So be it.

2 Peter

16 And as he said in all his letters, which had to do with these things; in which are some hard sayings, so that, like the rest of the holy Writings, they are twisted by those who are uncertain and without knowledge, to the destruction of their souls. (Compare)

17 For this reason, my loved ones, having knowledge of these things before they take place, take care that you are not turned away by the error of the uncontrolled, so falling from your true faith.

2 Peter 1
1 Simon Peter, a servant and Apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who with us have a part in the same holy faith in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 May grace and peace ever be increasing in you, in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

3 Because by his power he has given us everything necessary for life and righteousness, through the knowledge of him who has been our guide by his glory and virtue;

4 And through this he has given us the hope of great rewards highly to be valued; so that by them we might have our part in God's being, and be made free from the destruction which is in the world through the desires of the flesh.

5 So, for this very cause, take every care; joining virtue to faith, and knowledge to virtue,

6 And self-control to knowledge, and a quiet mind to self-control, and fear of God to a quiet mind,

7 And love of the brothers to fear of God, and to love of the brothers, love itself.

8 For if you have these things in good measure, they will make you fertile and full of fruit in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 For the man who has not these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having no memory of how he was made clean from his old sins.

10 For this reason, my brothers, take all the more care to make your selection and approval certain; for if you do these things you will never have a fall:

11 For so the way will be open to you into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 For this reason I will be ready at all times to keep your memory of these things awake, though you have the knowledge of them now and are well based in your present faith.

13 And it seems right to me, as long as I am in this tent of flesh, to keep your minds awake by working on your memory;

14 For I am conscious that in a short time I will have to put off this tent of flesh, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.

15 And I will take every care so that you may have a clear memory of these things after my death.

16 For when we gave you news of the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, our teaching was not based on stories put together by art, but we were eye-witnesses of his glory.

17 For God the Father gave him honour and glory, when such a voice came to him out of the great glory, saying, This is my dearly loved Son, with whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice came from heaven even to our ears, when we were with him on the holy mountain.

19 And so the words of the prophets are made more certain; and it is well for you to give attention to them as to a light shining in a dark place, till the dawn comes and the morning star is seen in your hearts;

20 Being conscious in the first place that no man by himself may give a special sense to the words of the prophets.

21 For these words did not ever come through the impulse of men: but the prophets had them from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 1

19 Keeping faith, and being conscious of well-doing; for some, by not doing these things, have gone wrong in relation to the faith:

20 Such are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have given up to Satan, so that they may say no more evil words against God.

2 Timothy 2
15 Let it be your care to get the approval of God, as a workman who has no cause for shame, giving the true word in the right way.

16 But take no part in wrong and foolish talk, for those who do so will go farther into evil,

17 And their words will be like poisoned wounds in the flesh: such are Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Men whose ideas are all false, who say that the coming back from the dead has even now taken place, overturning the faith of some.

I havent even gone through the gospel

Dom-

It’s really a moot point. Just because I believe Jesus COULD have sinned does not mean I think it was "in him” to sin. Because of his sinless nature he was able to resist all temptation. Nonetheless I believe the temptations were real true temptations. He could have called 10 legions of angels but to do so would have been sin, so He didn’t. He could have turned stones to bread when he was starving to death but he would rather die than do so.

Hebrews 4
15 For we have not a high priest who is not able to be touched by the feelings of our feeble flesh; but we have one who has been tested in all points as we ourselves are tested, but without sin.

Heb 9:14 How much more will the blood of Christ, who, being without sin, made an offering of himself to God through the Holy Spirit, make your hearts clean from dead works to be servants of the living God

Heb 9:28 So Christ, having at his first coming taken on himself the sins of men, will be seen a second time, without sin, by those who are waiting for him, for their salvation

Sin in its nature is rebellion against god. Why would he want to rebel against himself.

Jesus even in his nature could not sin as then he wouldnt be a sacrifice for our sin

You are desecrating the gospel with your theology .
If there is no substitute for our sins then he cannot take the place for our sins .

Todd what is the gospel ?

If Jesus did not die for our sins then he could not save us from hell or god's wrath .
Jesus is god why would he even want to sin he has been with the trinity for eternity.
This is what you do not get that the holy spirit has been with Jesus all eternity and the magnitude of the trinity.

I have no idea what you are talking about. You are not being responsive to my post you are simply spewing.

I clearly stated that Jesus never sinned but for some reason you find it fit to say that I did.

Whatever Dom!