Are These Christian Bloggers Tearing Down the Body of Christ? by Greg Gordon

I read the article, then read the comments, one of your commenters/accusers denounced you...and validated everything you said with his critical spirit.

Thank you Greg. I certainly agree.

Thank you Greg for writing this much needed article that will get good exposure.

The Word is very clear concerning church discipline, and if we see that a brother is overtaken in a fault, we should not be doing the work of the accuser of the brethren, and spread it around like one of the popular gossip magazines. We should be doing all that we can to restore a fallen brother in the spirit of meekness.

False prophets and teachers need to be exposed, but the problem arises that just because a brother is not scripturally correct concerning some view or teaching, this does not necessarily make him to be false. I will use John MacArthur as an example. I disagree with him concerning his Cessationist views, but I still would acknowledge him to be a brother in the Lord.

It is the work of the accuser of the brethren to divide the Body of Christ through accusation and finger pointing.

I do not follow Christian media much so cannot validate many things put here about Christian media.

But 1 scripture that clearly showed me how to react when we hear about Sin in Body of Christ is -

1 Cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 [a]You have become [b]arrogant and [c]HAVE NOT MOURNED INSTEAD, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

Our first reaction should be Mourning for the one who fell. But our Adamic nature will always lead us to Gossip against the fallen one and speak evil of them.

The solution is actually to have a burden for the Body of Christ and have a genuine concern for the Church to be free from Sin. First we ourself should be doing the good fight not to bring Sin into His Body, then only we will get the heart to mourn for others sin. These are the things that I learnt from judging myself.

I would have to ask how do you define the church ?
Charles spurgeon has a famous sermon

Churchiantiy Vs Christianity
https://archive.spurgeon.org/s_and_t/c_v_c.php

You have read John Wesley

https://www.whdl.org/almost-christian-sermon-2
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3658&commentView=itemComments

The Almost Christian
by
George Whitefield
(1714-1770)ttp://www.biblebb.com/files/whitefield/gw043.htm

There are many people who go to church but there are many people who go to a burger king that does not make them a hamburger

Matt 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

The bible itself talks about a false prophet

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone

Do you join with anybody who wants to join with the interfaith movement like the pope

Pope interfaith video

https://youtu.be/FKuQqHMhJdY

Are all of the church the actual church ?
I would regard the interfaith movement is not Christianity

John 17
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. note

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

What I am not talking about is out an heresy would you follow someone who robs people or a witch who runs a church.

The bible talks about the great harlot church
Revelation 19
Revelation 17
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: note

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. note

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

And the true church

Revelation 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. note

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

We are either part of the true church or the false church

Matt 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

The bible speaks that there will be an apostasy before the time of the antichrist
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, note

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

The Biblical evidence provides for the fact that not everyone who goes to church is the church .

The bible predicts a false church and a true church.
Jesus himselfs predicts that in the last days there will be more false Christ's and false prophets .

I am just touching on this subject as I have actually read alot of the books that have come out of our Christian bookshops it saddens me compared to the books even written 30 years ago.

Brother Greg,
While we may differ on some of the finer points (nuance) there is an agreement with your articles intent and it is a much needed and timely admonition:)

With a simple (10 min) search of the dissenting commenters sources, it was easily shown to have a specific agenda, which has little to do with GFA finances but rather brother KP’s stance on homosexuality- it seems quite clear that the "critique” cited/linked by Frank in the comments and written by Warren Throckmorton is a thinly disguised "hit piece” aimed at undermining the good works of GFA. Mr. Throckmorton has a clear and unabashed "ministry” of normalizing homosexual behavior and is quite the busy beaver in his work, using his position as a psychologist to promote and perpetuate sin, attacking those whom stand against it. Knowing brother KP’s position (historically) is not pro gay and considering the influence GFA has through its ministry, it makes itself a target for these types of "shill” attacks.
While there may indeed be some financial misconduct on GFA’s part, and I may not personally agree with all of the financial decisions of this ministry, as a brother I am commanded/encouraged to pray and intercede before the Lord on their behalf and not publicly attack them. However Mr Throckmorton cannot be expected to do so as he does not know the Lord and therefore cannot hear Him, rather he is controlled by his desire to normalize sin and make it acceptable. Unfortunately "Frank” has aligned himself with this agenda perhaps unwittingly as a result of confirmation bias, which itself is as a yeasty presence within the body of Christ.
So the truth (as I see it) is that Mr Throckmorton, Frank, and brother KP all present opportunities to pray, seeking the Lord on their behalf 🙏🏻:)

Proverbs 27:2 KJV
[2] Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.

Based on the Community Guidelines, the author on this post and the link to Charisma News should be removed because it is self promotion. Because Greg Gordon wrote the article, it should just be posted without his name in the title. I ask that you also consider your recent behavior with the ebook and the manipulative methods used to promote it. If the Lord has appointed it, He will anoint it and use it to bear good fruit.

Good grief- how about a private email to Greg, Jeremy?

Ya, that Greg guy is a huge self-promoter.

But, if you really want a self-promoter look at that guy marvin, he has 983 posts with his name on it...and of all things expects people to read what he said.

The difference between this discussion website and your own blog is possibly greater readership.

But nuances aside, our little contradictions overlooked a blog and discussion board where you have hundreds or thousands of postings can hardly be said to be an anonymous purveyance of information.

I truly must be guilty as sin in posting 983 times...it must be rank self-promotion.

Regarding this discussion, I want to be very careful. I know that I come down hard on things; however, isn't it fair to say that there are many discussions in this forum that I DO NOT even discuss. There is much that I keep to myself. There is much that I do that is not good. There is much being redeemed. I appreciate the fact that Greg is trying to get us to flex our discernment muscles and throw punches in the right direction. We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, we wrestle against the enemy.

However, to make wide generalizations and cast the whole gamut of Christian bloggers under the "merciless judge" label is dangerous. Not all Christian bloggers do this. Not all Christians go around slandering others. It needs to be warned against, but not all are guilty.

I also firmly believe that I have every right to call out a false teaching, a false prophet, or other things. Case in point: No one here has any problem with calling out Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. Not a soul would debate whether or not he was a false prophet. Would you say the same if he was living right now? Or is death the gateway for this discussion. Do we need to wait until John MacArthur is dead to find out whether he was true or false. Should we wait until Joel Osteen is dead? What about you, Greg. Should we only wait to evaluate you until after you're long gone? No, I think we should have these discussions now. Or else, we are merely affirming everything everyone says until after death.

Finally, I think we should do exactly what Greg is saying: pray for these men. Humble ourselves and appeal for them, by name and specifically. If we leave a discussion and everyone feels great about how dumb someone is and justified that they have identified a false teacher, then we've got problems. We need to finish out the process and pray for them and minister to them if we can. Our speech should be merciful and pitied toward those who are erring. Yet I will say this, if you have a leaky faucet, the solution to the problem is not to stop drinking water. Fix the leak. If we are being too harsh, the solution isn't to stop identifying false prophets and their teachings. It is to have these discussions based upon a desire for their restoration and/or salvation.

I think part of the problem is how one defines "false prophet.” For example, some folks think any preacher with a charismatic bent is a false prophet, because they believe somewhat differently about certain teachings in the Bible.

I left behind charismatic churches I attended because of what I considered a lot of nonsense- however my friends who still attend and the pastors are not false prophets. A tad goofy- yes. False prophets- no.

Frank: Good to hear from you again. I may have been out of the loop but it seems like I have not seen you post in a while. I could use some clarification. Where did your last quote come from? Not sure I follow.

Blessings

I recently saw a social media post denouncing the actions of a very prominent pastor and his wife. It had to so with the pastor's wife laying on the grave of Wigglesworth in order to somehow obtain anointing from him. I am sure the pastor's wife was somehow bringing up the idea that the bones of Moses brought a dead man back to life again. I believe the pastor's wife to be in error, especially when the anointing of God is to be found in intimacy with God through His Holy Spirit. But her rightness or error is not the most important point. It is sad that the poster was decrying the action publicly, slandering the name and reputation of the pastor and his wife. Gossip is gossip regardless of whether the person being talked about was right or wrong. I found it ironically sad that the same person later posted the statement that we should never gossip because it is really slander.

Greg is right in my opinion. Church discipline, including the calling out of error, is something that is assigned Biblically to eldership and apostleship. Leaders should spend much time in prayer and listening to the Holy Spirit before they publicly denounce one in error.

Scripture teaches us that when we see a brother overtaken in a fault, we should go to that brother in a spirit of meekness and seek to see that brother restored.

A heart that is quick to decry and denounce instead of go into the closet to weep and pray is a heart that has not been touched by the love of God and does not understand Him and His ways.

Reproof and rebuke are between the guilty person and the reprover or rebuker, not between the reprover and others who are not involved. I wonder what would happen if we, when we think someone is in error, would go to that person and seek with meekness and wisdom to restore them to truth rather than denouncing their error.

I know a local pastor who stepped over into error where grace is concerned and began to openly espouse what many are calling hyper-grace. It split his church and caused no small stir. He has been denounced and put to open shame in the community of believers in the area. People would run into him here and there and attack him for his error. But one local leader had more wisdom. He met with the pastor and tried to encourage him and establish relationship. When the pastor finally let his guard down he asked, "Well do you agree with my doctrine?" This wise leader said, "absolutely not. I think you are wrong, but I love you all the same." From this relationship has come some healing and restoration to the pastor in error. He had been so hurt as a pastor by legalistic people that he had jumped into the opposite ditch and gotten into error. He is still not completely out of his error, but restoration has begun and this wise leader has actually been able to share truth at a conference event presented by the pastor.

My point is this, the love of God must by the driving force in everything we do. His ultimate goal is that He be allowed to live through us so that we are completely governed and motivated by God's love and desire. We are to be like Him.

When rebuke of a person is necessary, when public exposure is warranted, it should come through leadership that has the heart of God and is anointed by Him to do so.

Sniffing out a false teacher?

A couple of things to consider
1. The scriptures handle the subject by naming the false-teacher with various 'identities'.
The Charlatan/Exploiter who make merchandise of the people of God.
The false prophet/teacher who have their own revelations/teachings that supersede the scriptures and nullify God's commands.
The skeptic/mocker who calls into question the word of God in order to replace it with his own teachings.
The Tickler who purposely seeks advantage by telling people what they want to hear and censoring those who interfere with that.
The seducer who use carnal means to entice the people if God away from God's commands, they seek to please the flesh of their hearers and nullify the cross.

No doubt others can be mentioned.

2. It may be observed that those mentioned above are often a mixed bag, the exploiter may also seduce, and the false teacher may also mock and bring into question received teachings.

So, when developing your 'criteria' you will find one criteria doesn't always fit all teachers.

The 7 point statement of faith of a Church or ministry website can often be contradicted by the locus of that preachers sermons.

3. Which doctrines are essential which are not. You will notice very soon this different with different ministries.

Some will damn you off to hell because you speak in tongues. Why?
It follows a chain (sometimes)
prophecy/tongues=extra biblical revelation=rejection of biblical authority=rejection of the bible itself=renegade/rebellious person=unsubmitted to God and the Church=probably unsaved.

So you may have a non-essential stance on tongues where someone else has put your salvation on the line by way of a 'slippery slope' line of thinking.

Since the bible has no stand-alone doctrines, all of them interlace with others, our judgments of one thing are often approved by 'other biblical connections' and at times condemned by those same 'other biblical connections'.

To me, those that simply broad brush a group or type or method in order to easily condemn them are harmful to the body.

It is just me or are there folks here that are taking cheap shots at Greg?

The subject was concerning the unwarranted and un-scriptural-ness of attacks and divisiveness of various internet bloggers.

Maybe we should retitle the thread "take cheap shots here"
so we can attack the author. This kind of nonsense validates Greg's article.

Greg doesn't deserve that kind of treatment

by the way...sola scriptura is not violated when a man says "I need help interpreting scripture".

If Greg locked up this thread it might keep some of us from sinning.

Appolus,

Church history IS what tells you about the reformation. We ought to go back to church history and see what things were taught. It's not like after men who were well respected back in those days die that suddenly everything they said is useless.

Secondly, please brother, I appeal to you, the attitude you have is poor. You are treating us like dogs. We are your brothers and equals with you. Sure we might disagree, but you don't have to treat us like your enemies. You have presented no evidence or case that is remotely coherent. Instead you are giving short snippets of quotes. How can we judge on that? How can we hear you if you won't stop speaking in whispers?

I am sorry, but this is exactly what Greg was warning us about.

Frank, Greg, havok, et.al.

I hope this is not too much of a rabbit trail from the OP, but since it has come up...let me give you my take.

Just because a man is an early church father does not mean that his ideas or his writings are Biblically correct or inspired or anointed. Just because a man is a great theologian does not mean that his doctrines are sound or correct.

The Bible was never meant to be interpreted solely by intellectual man. It is not an intellectual book. It is spiritual. His words are spirit and they are life. Sola Scriptura leads to gross error if it means that man, with is human intellect, studies only scripture and tries to understand it. Interpreting scripture through the eyes of the early church fathers leads equally to great error for it relies on man's interpretation to establish what we believe. We may use these men's writings to encourage and help us, but we absolutely must stop short of interpreting scripture through the lenses of their writings.

The Bible is spiritual, not natural. The word of God is alive. It is both an anointed book and a person (Jesus Christ). Both speak to us and neither contradict each other because the living word is the author of the written word. Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 2 that his teaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and power. He goes on to tell us that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him being that they are spiritually discerned. When we seek to understand scripture, we cannot do it with our natural mind. We will get it wrong 100% of the time. This is the reason for the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. He interprets His word for and to us.

You see, the word of God is not a book to be understood. It is spiritual truth that is meant to be received by us in our spirit, and then quickened to us by the Holy Spirit so that our understanding becomes fruitful. We were never meant to simply "understand" the word intellectually so that our doctrine is straight, we were meant to receive it into us so that we become that word. The word is spiritually discerned.
If the Holy Spirit is quickening the word to 100 different men of God, they will all have one common conclusion about that word. If 100 different men are intellectually parsing scripture, they will come up with many different interpretations and possibly 100 different points of view. You cannot interpret the written word without the spoken word by the Holy Spirit. And you cannot accept the spoken word without its veracity being confirmed by the written word. The two are one and they work in concert.

Proverbs 18:13--"He who answers a matter before he hearts it, it is folly and shame to him."

This is the last thing I will say: I find it strange that the man you have been berating is the same one who is allowing you to post on HIS website all this information. Seems like a godly man who would tolerate a beating from someone with the audacity enough to dog him to the ground. You should think about that.

I won't respond further, since your inquiries are all directed at Greg and I can answer none of them. It's hard to have a discussion when you are talking at someone else.

Hi Frank:

Well, Sycophant is a new name for me...I'll add it to self-promoter.

But really, the thread is on divisiveness and judgmentalism, you have taken the thread off course and called Greg to account on other doctrinal issues.
Ok, fine, this is a discussion forum, but the tenor of your posting is to take Greg behind the woodshed for a spankin.

Since he is not responding ( no doubt he's read what you've said) it's not even a discussion it's a series of accusations from you.
I think appropriate decorum would be to have this a private matter between you and Greg so it can be settled.

lastly and I'll drop this, if Greg is not going to respond publically to your accusations, there is little reason to pursue this openly. He may chose not to defend himself here on the forum and there is biblical precedent for taking such a route.

Frank:

So I decided to read the book of Ignatius by Greg. His opening chapter had little in it that pegs Greg as unorthodox. If you consider Ignatius teachings have a full stamp of approval by Greg (which was not explicit) at that point you need to get from Greg just what from Ignatius he will vouch for as his own.

I did read about 50 some comments (facebook) by Blaine, Ron, Ian, Jonathan and others, they were all making accusations to which Greg never responded to affirming or denying. All Greg did was say "we need context for the New Testament in order to obtain a more accurate interpretation of scripture today" (loose quotation). Well they didn't like that answer so out came other conclusions.

Ignatius was very fond of saying to his audience "you are this, this and this! Those who are that, don't do this! That form of warning/exhortation I found in all his letters ( supposed)
To me, its one thing to say "Ignatius missed it on some point or another scripturally". It's another to ignore the context of his life and how he was exhorting the believers to live.
If we were to reverse the table and let Ignatius speak to this generation...It would be no small wonder he would be full of rebuke and exhortation. He might fully validate why he exhorted to keep right with the bishop over against our pastors and teachers who violate the scriptures with such abominable lives and teachings. He would probably walk away feeling more vindicated than ever anyone had.

All I would say to all of this. Cookie cutter judgments eventually cut out everyone. When you finally realize your cutter just looks like you, everyone else doesn't. Then there are no orthodox in any age, only you. There are no doctrines or traditions worthy of acceptance other than those you approve of. Like it or not, God's grace makes room for 2000 years worth of all kinds of variations, the only variation of course that condemns all others is that kind who thinks they are the end all in doctrine and practice.

We are just not it.

Before I get ready to toss into hell all the sacredotals...I might check with God to make sure all of the 21st century worldly types are going to make it.

I don't buy it that Greg is making overtures to RCC There are plenty of sacerdotal reformed who have nothing to do with RCC.

Anyway I just wanted you to know I would make some effort to understand your position Frank.

Frank, you said, "Hi Travis, it comes from Greg along with a rejection of sola scriptura. He has been rebuked by men like Ron Bailey and Allan Halton and Jose Munez, leader of Jesus Crew, himself an ex Catholic like me........bro Frank"

"Rebuked," at least for my part, is not the right word to describe the reaction to what Greg Gordon is embracing. It is more a strong plea to Greg to listen to what an increasing number of well-grounded brethren are saying to him. They are brethren who are alarmed at what the founder of Sermonindex is propagating these days. And personally, I have not felt anything said to him was out of a critical spirit, but rather out of love.

Allan Halton

How do you define the body of the Messiah

Deleted for the time being.

Blessings.

Im in the midst of charging my phone which I'm using and trying to read in between and I need to go back over that thread it seems.

I'll try and get back to you. Thanks.

It is amazing to me how a post about "tearing down the body of Christ" has led to so much dissension.

A parable.

Five men saw a straight stick. They studied it, embraced it and KNEW from that what a straight stick is.

The same five men saw a crooked stick, and though they're personalities and vessels differed they were all in complete agreement that what was before them was indeed a crooked stick.

The disharmony in this forum isnt a "problem", in the way the word is used today. It is a crushing cornerstone that should prompt us to ask if any of this is real...if any of us actually know, if we are speaking from a place that can tell of Christ in a definitive solid way. Or maybe (and Im willing to bet my bottom dollar) if he is reduced to doctrine and dogma that serves our purposes and conforms to our little worlds. You speak of catholics and christians as if God even slightly sees the difference...He who sees the hearts and the souls of EVERY man in TRUTH without respect of persons.

How many men on this forum are just tombs filled with dead mens bones (ravenhill, reidhead, ignatius, etc.) rather then the Life of Christ.

Shame on you all. Youre disharmonious thought bears witness against you. Anyone who has definitely seen a straight stick can tell you are not speaking from a place of knowing and finality but in speculation and desires of the heart.

Forget what you have embraced and seek the Truth!!

Shame on you.

Brothers and sisters,

It is not difficult to find fault and error in one another, and that error should be addressed if it is leading the saints away from the truth.

In the Colossian letter, the Apostle Paul adressed What is known as the "Colossian Heresy”, but before he does that the emphasis that is made is on the greatness and preeminence of Christ.

We need to make the main thing the main thing, and that is not just examining the error, but it is by growing in the knowledge of Jesus Christ, seeing Him who is the truth. The light will always expose and overcome the darkness.

None of us can say that there is no fault in us, and the Lord is calling us to be of the same mind, and to correct one another in all gentleness, humility, and meekness. It is only by grace that we stand.

Frank, thanks for your earlier clarification about the word "rebuke.” My concern has been that others who read these posts will understand that this is not a "feeding frenzy” (to quote from Greg’s original post) but rather brethren who love him and are deeply troubled about serious error that he is propagating these days.

Greg, you have said elsewhere that correction should be left to leaders, or words to that effect. I’m not sure I fully agree with you on that, but surely you must acknowledge that some of those who are alarmed at what you are saying are respected leaders, elders. Personally, I am dismayed that you have not taken to heart what a leader of the caliber of Ron Bailey has said to you. Please, Greg, heed your own counsel. It would be a tragedy for the founder of Sermonindex to go down in history the way, it seems, you are determined shall be the case.

There is an accidental misquote:

"You speak of catholics and christians as if God even slightly sees the difference.”

Greg did not say this”” it was from one of Martyr/ Brother Tyler’s replies.

Also, Greg does not pray to Mary or the saints nor is he encouraging others to do so.

He has been researching the early church and they seem to have believed that, after Christ came in the flesh, died, was buried, ressurrected and ascended, that now when the saints leave their tents behind they are not dead (except their bodies) and that their spirits (Philippians 1:23,24; Hebrews 12:23) are in heaven as the cloud of witnesses etc see (Hebrews 12:1)

Regarding my earlier post, I think there is some confusion in this present thread. People here may not understand that what I said (and what Frank said) has little to do with the original post here. What I said can only be understood in the context of the lengthy Facebook discussion on Greg Gordon's book on Ignatius of Antioch.

Ignatius was the first major proponent of the monarchial bishop system, which the Scriptures do not endorse.

//At Harvest Bible there is now a Class Action Lawsuit being brought by the members of the that church against the so-called leadership//

"To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?”
1 Corinthians 6:7

While it’s important to provide loving correction it’s equally important to do it properly. Correction for correction sake is, at best, a misguided attack.
If a person "wants” to correct another member of the body of Christ, the spirit of it should itself be in question. Any corrective address that is not born of and led by God will only serve to tear down and not build up the body of Christ. We are implicitly called to build up-
Sometimes we have "good” intentions but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are "God” intentions...
While it’s obvious that the body of believers has a sort of autoimmune deficiency it is also obvious that most are ill equipped to address the issue as is often observed when an attempt to correct a member takes place.
This is not to say we shouldn’t "defend the faith” as it was handed down to us, tho some have taken this mandate to mean we are somehow licensed to attack other members. This itself is clearly error and itself subject to correction.
The scriptures are replete with examples of proper correction, brought about by God at the time of His choosing.
So "if” we have observed an error and are compelled to issue a correction we must first go to the Lord and pray/intercede not only for the member in error but for ourselves to be of the right spirit,... meek, humble, lowly, loving
It’s been observed we can be "right” regarding an issue but go about a corrective action completely devoid of the Holy Spirit - meaning it’s just our flesh and actually does more harm:(
It’s also to be noted that WE ALL HAVE BEEN IN ERROR at one time or another and in many cases, will be again as we work out our salvation.
One thing that seems common in biblical correction is they address the issue and not the person... "play the ball - not the man”. This allows Holy Spirit to do His work in the hearts and spirits of those in error. It seems oftentimes we want to "be” Holy Spirit and while it may or may not be a bad thing to want to,... it’s always a bad thing to try to be Him.... He is really good at being God and doesn’t need us to do His job for Him 🙏🏻😇

A little confession.

The last several decades God has stirred my heart toward confronting the evil that attacks his people and the lost.
I am not naturally a confronter, I am passive. As I came to recognize the gift of God in me, I recognized my resilience to confrontation was God given and anointed.

I recognized too that I was able to delve into area or deal with difficult topic or even scenarios with very thick-skin. This too was of God.

I enjoy reading discernment ministry blogs and articles, I enjoy and thank God for men and women who see what I see, and are bold to speak up about it.

With God's grace and humility, I am what I am and there is nothing to be ashamed of.
So what is good, boldness, confidence, wisdom, anointing I stand against evil for Jesus sake and love for his people.

But with all of that, what Fletcher said applies even more to me. I have made every one of the errors mentioned and more so. In reflection on a past debate I needed to use a scalpel, I preferred the chainsaw. So, I used the chainsaw.

My choice was wrong, therefore my method is intrinsically wrong and my outcome is also wrong. All that God has given so that I might act in accordance with his plan and purpose I didn't use, instead I used the carnal 'other'.

This is the flaw of discernment ministries, bloggers who find an error in a ministry and resort to unbiblical attitudes and correctives which cannot and do not honor God.

It is right and good that those who discern and confront the errors which arise among us as saints, are also reminded to 'submit yourselves to one another' as Paul entreats. None of us are above reproof and correction.

I don't read anyone saying on this thread "yea lets get rid of discernment ministries, bloggers who expose error and explain truth". No, but if that man or woman has ventured beyond scripture, they are subject to the same reproof as they give.

If you are going to give reproof, you had better expect to get some back...because you too are being sanctified out of your sinful self.

I am appreciative of Frank, I agree with him on the subject of refusing to cave to RCC doctrines slowing creeping into evangelical Christianity.

But, remember, if a few men are debating and even correcting another brother (whether Greg is in error or not, is not my point) 47 others do not need to join the fray and begin adding their corrections and reproofs. This tactic takes on the appearance of sharks circling the waters after smelling blood.

This is also the wisdom of scripture in going to your brother in private, then with two or three others...then publically.

Gregs article is spot on and needful for at least me.

That seems a wise take on things Gloryandgrace. Thank you.

I read some of the relies at wartburg press and more than a few were saying things about and painting pictures of Greg that simply aren't true and are far from Greg's heart in my opinion. They are just going by what someone else wrote which I suppose is one of the main dangers Greg was trying to address.

The first question that you might consider is are they "Christian Bloggers, or Bloggers who call themselves "Christian"
The Word has much to say about such activity, gossip, talebearer, false teachers, etc. Combined with the teachings of Jesus, discernment is easy for a Spirit Filled believer.
Do we reflect the love of Christ or are we acting like the enemy of our souls?
If we reflect the love of Christ, we find ourselves under the wings of God.
Far from the darkness.