Can one who commits suicide be saved?

Can one who commits suicide be saved?

Exodus 20:13; Acts 24:15; Romans 5:2”“5; 2 Corinthians 1:10

Suicide is a grave sin equivalent to murder (Exodus 20:13; 21:23), but it can be forgiven like any other sin. And Scripture says clearly that those redeemed by God have been forgiven for all their sins--past, present, and future (Colossians 2:13-14). Paul says in Romans 8:38-39 that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

So if a true Christian would commit suicide in a time of extreme weakness, he or she would be received into heaven (Jude 24). But we question the faith of those who take their lives or even consider it seriously--it may well be that they have never been truly saved.

That's because God's children are defined repeatedly in Scripture as those who have hope (Acts 24:15; Romans 5:2-5, 8:24; 2 Corinthians 1:10, etc.) and purpose in life (Luke 9:23-25; Romans 8:28; Colossians 1:29). And those who think of committing suicide do so because they have neither hope nor purpose in their lives.

Furthermore, one who repeatedly considers suicide is practicing sin in his heart (Proverbs 23:7), and 1 John 3:9 says that "no one who is born of God practices sin." And finally, suicide is often the ultimate evidence of a heart that rejects the lordship of Jesus Christ, because it is an act where the sinner is taking his life into his own hands completely rather than submitting to God's will for it. Surely many of those who have taken their lives will hear those horrifying words from the Lord Jesus at the judgment--"I never knew you; Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:23).

So though it may be possible for a true believer to commit suicide, we believe that is an unusual occurrence. Someone considering suicide should be challenged above all to examine himself to see whether he is in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).

by John MacArthur

In other words, if a Christian does it is, it is okay and will be forgiven. But if anyone else even considers it, they are lost and will be punished for it. Typical Calvinist OSAS perseverance lies.

What God's Word rightly divided actually teaches.
Ezekiel 18:23-32
"23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."

I don’t see it as a Calvinist OSAS issue.

The only issue on the table is whether a person who commits suicide is saved when they do it. Some are, some are not.

Suicide is a sin, like a multitude of other sins. How often has a true Christian committed some sin, then a few seconds later dies or is killed in some accident.

Everything MacArthur says sounds good but perhaps he has not experienced the depths of despair or mental instability that lead some to suicide.

This is a very personal thread for me, and I've always just stood on these two scriptures, to help me keep moving forward.

"If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9).

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

I might add, until you have been in a persons shoes that has lost a love one to suicide, they need all the hope they can get, rather in scripture or in love from their fellow believers. With my limited mind, I would find it awful hard to believe anyone would kill themselves, unless they were sickly depressed, or had some mental issues. Would a loving God not welcome his child into his arms after knowing they were not thinking right, or even capable of thinking right? I hope the God I serve would, if not, I'm serving the wrong God.

The original article says that suicide is a sin equal to murder (I agree). It then goes on to quote (out of context) Colossians 2:13-14 and Romans 8:38-39 to assert that even suicide can't separate one redeemed by God from His love. This is an OSAS issue I there ever was one. The article then cites Jude 24(totally inappropriately if you actually read Jude 24 in context) to say that that if a Christian commits suicide in a moment of weakness they will be received into heaven. I then ask: How many who have committed suicide do so in a moment of strength? Mcarthur has indeed just said "ye shall not surely die" for committing a sin that he acknowledges is equal to murder. Mcarthur then says "But we question the faith of those who take their lives or even consider it seriously--it may well be that they have never been truly saved." This is his Calvinistic perseverance showing itself- to him you either got saved before and nothing you can do can reverse that- or you never really did and never really had a chance to at all. The Scriptures teach on the other hand the need to exercise a living faith that obeys and worships God in the present (Romans 1:16-17 Hebrews chapters 3-4, Hebrews 5:9, etc). Ezekiel 18:23-32 deals with this and proves that being in God's favor is not about whether you were ever "saved" before- it is whether you'll reject sin and serve God in the present. Suicide is a choice to forsake God and there can be no repentance from suicide because you can't repent after death. John 3:16 in its context aligns with Ezekiel 18:23-32 (since God's Word is consistent and it is the same God speaking throughout the bible). Can you read John 3:17-21 and still say God will accept a person and apply Christ's atonement to them as they choose darkness and commit suicide? Not the Holy God of Scripture. Suicide is by its very nature an act of unbelief and rejection of God's right to you. I am writing now to refute OSAS and abuse of grace as a license to sin in general; yet I originally commented because there may be people in despair or mental instability reading this (as I have been in too). They need to know that there is indeed hope in a living faith in Jesus (which indeed means choosing to suffer for the sake of His Word/Truth even when living itself seems like a burden). There is no hope in suicide and it is not compatible with a living faith in Christ. Those who are in despair should not make it worse by rebelling against and cutting themselves off from the very source of Hope. "17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:17) The Bible frequently says "if"- and "if" is meaningless should you get the same thing even when you don't meet the condition that "if" stated.

That’s a bunch of hooey gt768.

I hope you are confessing 24/7 every second of every day because God forbid you sin and then croak before you have s chance to confess it.

Hooey

noun -

silly or worthless talk, writing, ideas, etc.; nonsense; bunk

RELATED WORDS

bananas, garbage, absurdity, fatuity, bunk, baloney, blather, bombast, claptrap, babble, giddiness, imprudence, idiocy, drivel, bull, balderdash, irrationality, hogwash, folly, foolishness

__________________________

I just broadened my vocabulary by looking this word up. I never thought it was even a word.

A side note;

I've got a small pond in my backyard. As I was writing this post I just heard one of the bullfrogs making noise. They all begin to croak loudly about this time of the evening. I've often thought that if I only knew their language I'd know what they were saying. But then again, it's probably just a bunch of hooey.

Common sense tells us that many, if not most of us will die with sins of which we have not repented.

God's Word is on my side and reveals who is speaking hooey.

Ephesians 5:5-12- "5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret."

The Apostles of Christ say we're not to partake of evil with the children of disobedience, we're not to have any fellowship at all with the unfruitful works of darkness- and that any who do will face God's wrath; the Word says (directly to Christians by the way) "no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." I say the same thing as they did and it's called hooey. Paris Reidhead said many similar things in "Ten Shekels and a Shirt", a message that I can see is promoted here- but those statements must be hooey too.
Quote from Ten Shekels and a Shirt: "If the only reason you repented, dear friend, was to keep out of Hell, then all you are is JUST A LEVITE SERVING FOR TEN SHEKELS AND A SHIRT! THAT'S ALL! You're trying to serve God because He'll do you good! But a repentant heart is a heart that has seen something of the enormity of the crime of playing God and denying the just and righteous God the worship and obedience that He deserves! Why should a sinner repent? BECAUSE GOD DESERVES THE OBEDIENCE AND LOVE THAT THE SINNER HAS REFUSED
TO GIVE HIM! Not so that he'll go to heaven. If the only reason he repents is so that he'll go to heaven, it's nothing but trying to make a deal or a bargain with God. WHY SHOULD A SINNER GIVE UP ALL HIS SINS? WHY SHOULD HE BE CHALLENGED TO DO IT? WHY SHOULD HE MAKE RESTITUTION WHEN HE'S COMING TO CHRIST? BECAUSE GOD DESERVES THE OBEDIENCE THAT HE DEMANDS!"

Yet on the same site that promotes this sermon the majority (at least of the vocal ones) here are actually saying that one can turn their back on God, go live in sin, and not give the Holy God of Scripture the worship and obedience that He demands, even to the point of committing suicide (one of the ultimate acts of playing God) and yet they might still go to heaven anyways (i.e. "ye shall not surely die"). And then someone comes along and says with the Apostles to willful sinners "ye shall surely die- repent, serve God faithfully, suffer for Truth, ye must endure to the end to be saved like the Bible says so that iniquity shall not be your ruin"- and that is called hooey. Incredible.

I'm sure the Lord was told He was speaking hooey (by those who professed to God's people at that) when He insisted that ALL the uncleanness depart from the Temple.

I could give more Scriptures if necessary. Where is the option in these to just take yourself out of the picture by self-murder; or to just take pleasure in sinning and then vilify those who dare somehow try to argue that God will accept that or turn a blind eye to such who mock His mercy (even if they've been converted in the past)?

Psalm 103:17-18- "But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children; 18 To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them."

Matthew 7:13-17 "13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit." (Matthew 7:13-17)

Matthew 24:9-14: "9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Proverbs 14:9- "Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour."

Revelation 21:6-8- "6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Jesus didn't overcome for any of us; we have to overcome through Him (Hebrews 5:9, etc). I'm sure many of the fearful (i.e. cowardly) believed the lie that Jesus had forgiven their future sins and that they didn't need to run their race faithfully; same with those others described in verse 8 above. In many cases suicide was justified and went ahead with. How hateful to further this deception.

Satan is deceiving left and right, especially with his many versions of OSAS heresies- and especially through respected evangelical teachers/preachers. Heed the whole counsel of God and know for sure that to abide in Christ (i.e. remain in Christ) you need to fear God, shun sin to the best of your ability, keep His covenant as a whole, confess and forsake your sins in repentance to Christ your Lord and High Priest (you need Him in both these offices still) when/if you fail, and be faithful to His Word unto death (not the self-seeking death of suicide but rather suffering for the Truth of the Word however is necessary to be faithful).

Revelation 12:11- "11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

gt768-

First of all, I am not a proponent of OSAS; secondly, in the OP John MacArthur is quoted saying "So if a true Christian would commit suicide in a time of extreme weakness, he or she would be received into heaven (Jude 24)."

I agree with him that it would be exceedingly rare for a true Christian to fall so low as to commit suicide.

But some Christians are (or become) mentally ill, or are under some other form of extreme emotional or physical duress. Thank goodness God alone is their judge and not you. God chose murderers to be his greatest leaders and greatest apostle.

gt768.... I appreciate your feedback, maybe I can help you a little going forward, please remember not all this world understands and can interpret all scripture, so at times you may have to dumb down for some of us that come here that are not Bible scholars. When I say dumb down, I'm not saying water down any scripture, I'm saying I truly believe God wouldn't mind if you used a little wisdom and helped the less fortune in the understanding of the scriptures, by using some layman's terms and heart and wisdom, to help us understand better. We all can Google and search scriptures to prove our point/points, "I could even do that" but how many can "puff down" and speak from the heart and help us understand what God is saying in his word?

Example, I'm in the AC business, and I can talk to a customer where they have the deer in the headlights look after explaining my plan or repair to them, but I'm also blessed to be able to put those words into layman's terms, where they totally understand what I'm saying. GT, is it possible you can just set aside the scriptures for a moment, and explain to a lesser understanding person, the message you're trying to get across in layman's terms, to help me understand? We all should remember, some folks come here with no knowledge of the scriptures, and unless Greg designed SI to be for Bible Scholars only, we should all offer more grace to those that come here to learn.

They don't teach Algebra 2 or Precalculus or Statistics in first grade, some that come here are first graders, this is God's place, please don't come here all puffed up and throw out 20 scriptures that some may not understand, and say "the scriptures are on your side". If I don't understand those scriptures, how is it possible for me to know or understand that God's word "is" on your side?

God Bless
Mr. Bill

TMK, I sincerely thank you for the willingness to reason.
You say you're not a proponent of OSAS, yet considering your previous responses in this thread I honestly wonder if there is anything you believe a Christian can actually do to fall from grace, as evidenced by your defense of MacArthur's statement. Look at his abuse of Jude 24. The verse actually reads "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy" The verse is speaking of God's grace to enable one to overcome sin and stay faithful so that they can stand before God faultless- it's sure not saying that God will receive someone if they turn away and die in sin like Macarthur is using it.

Yes, God is the Judge and not John Macarthur who is speaking contrary to the terms that the Judge has already laid out in advance to tell us the criteria for His verdicts. Who is J.M. to say that one's extreme weakness is an excuse when almost everyone who commits suicide does so in a time of extreme weakness, emotional duress, etc? Who is he to bend the rules like that when the Bible doesn't give him the authority to? He has basically said that we don't need to overcome and stay faithful if we feel extremely weak when the Judge's own word says that His grace is made perfect in weakness (2 Cor 12). This goes beyond suicide and applies to all willful disobedience. No one has the right to give up on serving God since He has promised grace to continue faithful to those who continue to diligently seek Him. Now I'd grant that if someone is incapacitated and really doesn't have the mental capacity to know what they are doing, then that is a matter that the Judge hasn't given us information to make a conclusion on. But when that is really the case, the contents of a discussion like this would not be relevant since they'd not be able to recall and/or process the info. Thank God for His mighty deliverance in Christ and that He can transform those who turn to Him and keep seeking Him into great Apostles though beforetime they may have been murderers.

MrBillpro, I'm sorry if what I said is really beyond you, but I can't set aside the Scriptures and speak out of my own heart. That would be wrong. To put the point though in layman's terms the best related to the question dealt with in this thread, here you go: Jesus said His mother and His brethren are those which hear the Word of God and do it. He really meant that. He is talking about the course and ultimate intent which we have chosen to set our hearts upon- and that is proven by our words and actions. We have to get on the right course, the strait and narrow way that leads to life which He spoke of- and we have to stay faithful and remain on it- otherwise we reject Christ's Lordship- and then His High Priesthood to atone for our sins cannot profit us. The Judge has already said it will not be well for those who die not submitted to Christ's authority- in other words, to those who die in unbelief. Hebrews 5:7-10 really puts this in layman's terms as well as it can be said; and also shows what those in extreme weakness, duress, etc ought to do.

Hebrews 5:7-10- "7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec."

GT...Thanks! That helps, just to make sure we're on the same page, now I'm talking about people that have accepted Christ into their lives as their Lord and Savior. So if you're talking about people that have accepted Christ into their lives as their Lord and Savior, As I said before "Common sense tells us that many, if not most of us will die with sins of which we have not repented". So is everyone that has sinned today, and not repented yet, that die in the next 30 seconds, going to hell?

Gt...What do you make of these statements and scriptures? Thanks!

So, can a sin as grave as suicide destroy one's salvation?

The Bible tells us that at the moment of salvation a believer's sins are forgiven (John 3:16; 10:28). When we become a child of God, all of our sins, even those committed after salvation, are no longer held against us.

Ephesians 2:8 says, "God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God." (NLT) So, we are saved by God's grace, not by our own good deeds. In the same way that our good works don't save us, our bad ones, or sins, cannot keep us from salvation.

Paul made it plain in Romans 8:38-39 that nothing can separate us from God's love:

And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow -- not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below -- indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There is only one sin that can separate us from God and send a person to hell. The only unforgivable sin is refusing to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Anyone who turns to Jesus for forgiveness is made righteous by his blood (Romans 5:9) which covers our sin -- past, present, and future.

I have pity for those who commit suicide, and compassion for the people who endure the terrible pain of losing someone to suicide.

Having said that, suicide is never excusable. I think the percentage of christians who take their own lives as a result of mental instability (I mean psychological problems so bad they have no control over it) is very small indeed. One of the characteristics of a born again person is a sound mind.

One of my brothers is bi-polar, he takes lithium and has schizophrenic tendencies. I am still faithful to warn him, though, if he takes his life he WILL end up separated from God forever in hell. Am I trying to scare him? Absolutely! I love him and he knows it. It isn't love to tell someone there is no penalty for self murder. Love will warn us of the consequences of our actions.

Sometimes people that have lost a loved one to suicide change their theology because the thought of being separated forever from them (and the thought of them in hell eternally) is too much for them to handle. I sympathize, though I can't agree.

Nigel, I could spin that to say "Sometimes people that have family members or friends that think about committing suicide, can change their theology because the thought of them wanting to commit suicide, is just to much for them to handle. I've posted scripture/scriptures that say this "There is only one sin that can separate us from God and send a person to hell. The only unforgivable sin is refusing to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Anyone who turns to Jesus for forgiveness is made righteous by his blood (Romans 5:9) which covers our sin -- past, present, and future." So are we splitting hairs, or is there solid evidence in scripture that say's suicide is an unforgivable sin, if so it would contradict the one I just posted.

I sincerely appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions. but I don't think the subject of this debate is is very healthy for me personally, mind or spirit. I truly believe if you were to ask 100 of the worlds greatest theologians, they would also be split on their answers, so who am I to debate this subject. I hope all you Fathers have a wonderful and Blessed Fathers day, as we continue to serve the Greatest Father ever, Father God.

MrBillPro, You would say in another post that continuing with this discussion isn't healthy for you, but I'm going to respond to your earlier post since you addressed it to me. I won't mind if you do not respond.

You wrote "GT...Thanks! That helps, just to make sure we're on the same page, now I'm talking about people that have accepted Christ into their lives as their Lord and Savior. So if you're talking about people that have accepted Christ into their lives as their Lord and Savior, As I said before "Common sense tells us that many, if not most of us will die with sins of which we have not repented". So is everyone that has sinned today, and not repented yet, that die in the next 30 seconds, going to hell?"

We're definitely not on the same page. "Accepting Jesus" isn't a term the Bible uses, but letting that go and equating accepting Jesus with a living, obedient faith in Him, true belief in His entire person (and that's truly accepting Jesus), a faith that God is pleased with, then sins that are not repented of are not compatible with that. 1 John 3:4 says that sin is the transgression of God's law and John puts that in direct contrast to a real hope in Christ (read 1 John 3). Jesus is Lord and He upholds God's law (read Hebrews Matthew Matthew 5:17-18, 7:12, Hebrews 1:8-9, Revelation 22:14, etc)- I have to be submitted to His law or I'm at enmity with Him (see Romans 8:7). So yes, all those who die in willful sin go to hell and many Scriptures I've already posted prove that.

You wrote "Gt...What do you make of these statements and scriptures? Thanks! So, can a sin as grave as suicide destroy one's salvation? The Bible tells us that at the moment of salvation a believer's sins are forgiven (John 3:16; 10:28). When we become a child of God, all of our sins, even those committed after salvation, are no longer held against us."

The Bible never says anyone is ultimately and finally saved until they finish their race of faith faithful in God's eyes Hebrews 3:12-15- "12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." If you mean the moment someone truly repents, believes on Christ, and enters into God's favor (i.e. God's grace) then that is only the beginning of their race, their rehabilitation program, their initiation into Christ's school (all synonymous). Anyone who doesn't believe that has to throw out many, many passages of God's Word- especially Hebrews 3 to 5, Hebrews 12, Revelation 2 and 3, Revelation 21-22 and a multitude of others- we need to live by every word of God, His whole counsel which never contradicts itself. Initial belief, even when genuine faith, is not final salvation- and nowhere in the Bible does it say that future sins can't be held against you. If that were the case then you would not need Christ's High Priesthood to cleanse your record anymore nor would you need to follow and Obey Jesus as Lord at all. Once saved always saved is a deadly deception and there are entire books in the Bible written to refute this damnable heresy brought in by grievous wolves (2 Peter and Jude in particular).

You then wrote: "Ephesians 2:8 says, "God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God." (NLT) So, we are saved by God's grace, not by our own good deeds. In the same way that our good works don't save us, our bad ones, or sins, cannot keep us from salvation."

We only enter into God's favor because we forsake our sins in repentance and submit to God's authority in Christ. God accepting us on these terms (His terms) is grace because we only deserved hell and He didn't have to provide a means to be received back into His favor. Ephesians 2:8 is saying that works cannot buy our way into God's favor nor atone for one's own sins. We cannot devise our own method to save ourselves that God is going to accept in place of His gracious offer and our meeting its terms. This was the error of many 1st century Jews (with their rejection of Christ thinking the ceremonies in the law were enough to save them) and it is the error of the RCC system (with its sacramental salvation). We are indebted to God and cannot work off our debt nor bribe Him. We are damaged by sin and cannot rehabilitate ourselves. Since Christ has provided an atonement for us as the perfect lamb of God, we can be accepted by faith in Him- but only a living, obedient faith that upholds God's authority and involves repentance and works meet for repentance. Otherwise God's grace would be a license to continue in sin or to return to sin- it is not. We must cooperate with God's purpose in offering us grace or we will not receive grace. Titus 2:11-14- "11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." To come to Christ and receive grace we must submit to and come into agreement with this purpose of grace seen above- and we must walk by faith and live by faith in like manner afterwards (Romans 1:16-17, Matthew 24:13, etc) Grace isn't earned, but it has terms (as many free gifts do). If we forsake living by the terms and refuse to come into line with the Truth His grace is instructing us in, we will thus forsake the benefits of grace. If this sounds strange it's because the slippery OSAS teachers and other liars will not say these things (at least without contradicting themselves quickly) because they are about scratching ears, getting a following, and making money.

You then wrote: "Paul made it plain in Romans 8:38-39 that nothing can separate us from God's love:
And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow -- not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below -- indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord."

A good translation like the KJV doesn't say "nothing can separate us from God's love." Romans 8:38-39 is saying that no external force, circumstance or power can separate a faithful Christian from Christ's love. It is not saying that we can't separate ourselves by turning our back on God's authority and serving sin. If you read these verses in the context of Romans you'll see that Paul had already said that even the Christians he was writing to could yet go back and choose to serve sin and die (i.e. separate themselves from God's love). See Romans 6:15-16, Romans 8:13, Romans 11:22, etc. OSAS people misread Romans 8:38-39 to say that nothing can separate us from the love of God even should they forsake Jesus as Lord and refuse to do according to His Word. But Romans 8:38-39 doesn't say THAT.

You then wrote "There is only one sin that can separate us from God and send a person to hell. The only unforgivable sin is refusing to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Anyone who turns to Jesus for forgiveness is made righteous by his blood (Romans 5:9) which covers our sin -- past, present, and future."

And I addressed the content of this statement sufficiently in the rest of this post. Thank you for being willing to reason.

gt768, you speak the truth!

Your presentation of the gospel and the requirements/conditions of salvation unto eternal life is very much the same (99%) as my understanding,... when read honestly- that plainly is what is taught in the scriptures apart from any man made doctrines or denominational preferences, confessions or creeds.

It is refreshing to read your sober minded, forthright and unashamed stance upholding the truth as unchangeable and very much understandable.
Likewise the reality presented by the testimony of scripture seems hard, steep, daunting and unwavering in its preservation of the truth and on this account I commend you for being bold in response to this question/thread as all too often we capitulate or remain silent. This it seems to be because we believe the truth will be too much for people to handle so we attempt to change it in an effort to appease the flesh, while this may be with good intentions it can only bring misery as it is a lie cloaked as truth and acts as a yeast of sorts leavening every subsequent lump it’s received into.

Many (most) times a client that has exhibited a tendency to excuse or even justify sin, will almost subconsciously refer to a tragedy involving a loved one, where they just couldn’t bear the thought that their loved one died apart from Christ in their sins and went to hell so they found someone who would lie to them and they cling to the lie. The lie then acts like a seed and begins to reproduce after its own kind,... slowly corrupting and if not stopped, eventually taking over the persons faith itself as they become more and more tolerant of sin as it becomes a more familiar feature of the internal landscape of their minds... At first it (the lie) has to have a painful tragedy that is too hurtful to really look at honestly to hide behind, using it as a camouflage so to speak... but after it gets protected and even defended it grows unchecked until it no longer needs the tragedy to camouflage itself because now it has become a residential feature and it (the lie) literally fits in to its environment, having been cultivated by its host-

It’s in many ways a greater tragedy than the one that birthed the occasion as it’s usually a far slower and less noticeable affair and since the host themselves identify as a "Christian” this "doctrine” gets spread like a yeast in the body of Christ and the only thing that will stop it is the truth 🙏🏻

Realizing I’ve rambled here,... I do have a question for you- hoping to find out just how far you parse this out in scripture,...
If someone enters into a situation knowing they will almost assuredly be killed as a result (possibly even be looking forward to it) would that, in your view, be considered a suicide of sorts if it were completely avoidable?
ie: Paul going back to Rome in spite of being warned by the prophet

Fletcher, If your question was addressed to me I think it's clear from Acts that Paul was seeking to be faithful to the Lord in going to Jerusalem and not seeking death as an end. The Lord comforted him and promised he would get to Rome to testify of him there as he did at Jerusalem (Acts 23:11). The Lord didn't reprove him because he had work to do there despite the danger he knew he was exposing himself to. There are times where we definitely need to risk death to do God's will- protecting someone who is about to get assaulted or already being assaulted is one example. That's a universe of difference from someone jumping in water they know is infested with alligators in the hopes they'll kill him. I trust in God's mercy if it's a situation that's not so obvious- provided I'm already being faithful to the things which I surely ought to know. Makes me think of Acts 24:16 "And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men."

Quote "That's a universe of difference”

Yes! Indeed it is:)
Thank you for your response- it serves to better understand your perspective.

while reading how you had presented your view of Jesus my heart jumped in my chest as if to stand in applause recognizing the truth in your declaration of dependence on Him:)

I read this article immediately after it was posted. I agree with brothers who said this article is heavily based on Calvinism. The concept of interpreting a simple scripture in the eyes of Calvinism and there by adding more to the scripture than what it actually emphasis, is very unimpressive. I have read books of Calvinists even though I do not agree with their doctrine. Those books mostly talk about their devotion to Christ. Even though I believe they are doctrinally wrong, I sense their Revelation of Christ. But sadly in this article I only sense doctrine. This article can be read and appreciated only by those who agree with his doctrine.

Regarding those who commit suicide. The case should be examined like how we examine Divorced and remarried people. Jesus plainly said divorce and remarried people live in adultery. So it is a lifestyle of sin without any salvation from Sin. But one has to examine when the divorce happened, if it was before they came to Christ or whose fault the divorce was etc. Same way suicide is also a sinful act of unbelief, but there are other factors like mental state of the person etc. Only very spiritual people can fight metal conditions like depression and still be victorious.

That is why it is very important to seek the Lord to become spiritually matured when your mental strength is high, there are times when with age a person will start losing control over their mind. Only those who trained their mind at young age to take control of it, can remain spiritual at later ages.

For those who pull out the calvinist-card

Non-calvinists answer the question;

https://churchleaders.com/youth/youth-leaders-videos/278494-suicide.html

https://youtu.be/F-o4PpCkjV4

So are some of us suggesting that a brother or sister can, after having received the "mind of Christ”, at some point become mentally ill and still be somehow in communion with the Lord so as to abide in Christ?

This concept seems foreign to my understanding of scripture but perhaps I have overlooked something... is there a particular passage in scripture that provides a basis for such a position?

Fletcher is it your understanding that a Christian cannot suffer from mental illness (schizophrenia, depression, etc?). We know they can suffer from physical illness so I just want to see if you make a distinction.

Fletcher,

Q. Has a brother or sister, after having received the "mind of Christ”, at some point come down with dementia/alzheimers?

Is there a particular passage in scripture that provides a basis for such a position?

We’re all are entitled to our own beliefs or opinions of what scripture says. My belief or opinion is this, and no ones opinions or beliefs would ever change my mind on this subject. Anyone that doesn’t think that a person in Christ can’t become so depressed or so mentally ill enough to take their own life, well you’ve lost all credibility with me, so preach that message to someone else. Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that the act of suicide, no matter how tragic, is an unforgivable sin. If you are a believer in Christ, you will go to Heaven. The Bible is clear that the ONLY sin which cannot be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and the refusal to believe in Christ.

"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, he is guilty of an eternal sin.” (Mark 3:29)

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16)

It doesn’t really matter what I say/think, what matters is the testimony of scripture- and...
No I cannot find any scripture to support that theory (mental illness) rather they declare quite the opposite... sound mind, sobriety, etc... which is why I asked if there were any scriptures that you are aware of that perhaps I might have overlooked regarding this subject.

As far as physical illness is concerned, the scriptures do make a small distinction in that a person keeping step with the spirit can be physically injured or killed (in some cases) tho not so much when referring to a terminal illness, or a chronic disorder of any kind.
In those instances, possibly the individual has not matured (still sowing and reaping into the flesh) or has areas where God is not allowed to be Lord in that they have not given Him control? But are there any instances in scripture where a fully matured son or daughter was overcome by illness?That seems the antithesis of salvation, no?

Perhaps the better way to say it is this... to my knowledge there are no instances in scripture where we have an obedient christian who falls into a chronic much less terminal illness of any kind.

The scriptures tell me to use Gods word to inform my experience in this world and not the other way round, as such my reliance is upon the testimony of scripture. To believe in God as He is revealed in scripture and not to fabricate one based on my experience or preference.
Having said this,.... I have a question for you both-
Do you not believe that the God of the Bible,...the King of creation, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the one who created every star,...every planet,...every galaxy.... telling the mountains to come this high and go no further, telling the ocean to come this far and stop- and they all obey Him...the one whom knows every sparrow that falls from the sky... the God that fearfully made you in your mothers womb, the same one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead .... is capable of keeping those whom obey Him? Honestly think about who we are talking about here and the plain testimony of scripture is that He not only can but does, full stop-

With all due respect, if we are being totally honest most of our lives (post conversion) will stand as a testimony more against us than for us....
Again being totally honest, how many "believers” are spending more time growing in Christ (and more importantly allowing Christ to be formed in them) than they are attempting to advance their position in this world?
Wether thru political, financial, social, political, familial, or even physical development we are (in my understanding) deceived into believing that we can be ambitious for the things of this world and somehow still be a "Christian” tho if we are using the biblical definition of Christian (obedient children) and not the world’s definition (identify as a) then most and I do mean 90%+ of every "Christian” I’ve ever met falls far short of what the scriptures decidedly declare to be the requirement. (narrow path-straight gate)

So yes if a person is being led by the spirit of God, there doesn’t seem to be much of a chance that individual will develop a chronic illness, much less a terminal one and that’s not to mention taking their own life...

Again if I’m missing something in scripture , please by all means help me to understand🙏🏻

I am not sure what you mean. All greatest Christians throughout the ages have died, many or perhaps most from chronic diseases.

Fletcher,

You say,

"...please by all means help me..."

If I could, I certainly would!

-------------

You say,

"Having said this,.... I have a question for you both- Do you not believe that the God of the Bible... is capable of keeping those whom obey Him? Honestly think about who we are talking about here and the plain testimony of scripture is that He not only can but does, full stop-"

I absolutely do believe this! My purpose of starting the thread, "Do you believe this?", among other reasons was to prove that very truth. The truth "that He not only can but does."

The question was asked by Jesus, "Do you believe this?"

It's a blessed assurance as well as a comfort, to know that He alone not only saves us, but keeps us. And that is because He loves us and His Grace is an all-sufficient Grace. That is the God Whose I am and Whom I serve. There is no other God. He saves, sanctifies, and seals. And He does so with no help from man, angel, or any other created thing. He accomplishes and brings to pass everything He has purposed. And none can withstand what He has purposed from all eternity. Amen.

Worship God.

Yes it is appointed for men to die once then judgement...

And this is perhaps where we have a different understanding,... when you say "greatest Christians” who was it that decided they were great, God or the world ?

Remember.... the least shall be the greatest, and the greatest (according to the world) the least in Gods kingdom -

Just in thinking of Gods mercy, His love, tenderness and patience... He is the remedy, the healer of those whom are afflicted with illnesses including mental, physical and spiritual... He is the giver of hope and tells us before we’ve even asked how He has given more than we could’ve ever imagined.... even if we are believers of only this one promise and ask Him in faith for help ... then how can we live in such despair so as to be seduced into taking our own life? What’s more- if we’ve heard, believed and obeyed the gospel then we have already died to this world, sin, our fleshly desires, and the life we live now is not our own so we have no right at all to run it, making the decisions about it apart from God much less kill it !
Honestly think about it...if we are just taking even a small percentage of our thoughts captive making them obedient to Christ how would a suicidal thought even survive the first pass much less the time it takes to actually convince oneself (or be deceived) to mull it over and act on it?
The conscience of a born again believer would never allow it to progress, but would immediately recognize and arrest it on the authority of Christ’s victory.

The original question in this thread was regarding whether someone can commit suicide and still be saved. The issue of whether a Christian could be afflicted physically or mentally wasn't part of the original question; and I don't believe it's especially relevant to the original question. Mr. Macarthur's article touched on the issue of extreme weakness, not mental incapacitation. If suicide were truly an issue of mental incapacitation, then the influence of what people had read in this thread would not and could not potentially be a factor in their decision on whether or not they would take their own life.

The issue that the article brought out is the question of whether God's keeping power is manifested in saving someone who dies knowingly in the commission of a sin that is equal to murder. Mr. Macarthur and the poster of the article and many others here say "yes, that is God's grace and keeping power" and they thus imply or directly say that suicide is consistent with a faith in Jesus Christ that God will accept. I've argued and proven from the Scriptures that this is not the case, that you are either abiding in Jesus with an obedient faith like the men in Hebrews 11 exercised and you're being delivered from sin and thus kept from the evil one's dominion and condemnation- or you no have interest in Christ and in the benefits of his grace. There is no belief in Christ that will save you that is not obedient to Him and knowingly committing suicide is not consistent with a faith like this by its very nature- and someone who was at one time in the faith can forsake God- and obviously suicide is one means whereby that can be done.

I dare say that those defending salvation and God's keeping in suicide would quote Isaiah 55:6-7 to someone who admitted they were outside of Christ "6 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." Obviously this is Scriptural gospel preaching- repentance and pardon in keeping with the Holy character of God. Consider how illogical it is then to say that someone who takes their life back into their own hands, exits their God-given responsibilities of life on their own terms, and denies God the right to use them anymore for His glory- consider how illogical it would be for God to save someone who did that by the very gospel that required them to turn to God and stop living on their own terms. A God that does this is an imaginary God and a false Jesus- and those who serve such a god are in for a living nightmare when they meet the real one on judgment Day.

Regarding long-term bodily affliction in a faithful man: Yes, it can happen- we see it in the Bible in men like Job, in Trophimus in 2 Timothy 4, in the Apostle Paul who gloried in infirmities (2 Cor 12). Bodily affliction doesn't in itself prove one unfaithful. The issue is that we are required, in keeping with the gospel as Romans 12 says, to present our bodies to God as living sacrifices, whether they are healthy or not, that we might serve Him in a holy, acceptable way that we might prove God's good, acceptable, and perfect will (and we won't do so if we don't present our bodies to God in holiness- this reveals a deadly error in Calvinism which teaches that everything which happens and everything man does is ordained of God- a man-centered theology if there ever was one). Again, suicide is not compatible with this.

The conditions of our minds is much more closely related to our spiritual condition than our bodies are. 2 Timothy 1:7- "7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." Philippians 4:6-7: "6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." Usually if someone goes totally insane, it happened because they rendered themselves that way through sin. But I don't dare say that a righteous person could never, ever under any circumstance lose their mental capacity in a way that really wasn't their fault. Certainly getting drugged by an enemy could do that; and I don't dare say God would never, ever allow that to happen though generally I believe he'd protect against that. The issue in this thread though originally touched on extreme weakness, not mental incapacitation. And who is anyone to conclude that they are the exception to God's prohibition of self-murder, that their circumstances are worse than anyone else's, that it's better for them to die than to live, to presume that God's grace is sufficient to save them in their sin yet insufficient to recover them out of their despair and heal their wounded hearts, etc? No one has a right to make such conclusions.

And yet some will defend salvation in sin and the original article. Be warned though that many workers of lawlessness will think they'll enter heaven with an interest in Christ only to be shamefully turned away. Luke 13:24-27:
"24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity." (iniquity equals lawlessness)

I think this article may be of interest to some. It is by Art Katz and it is a little lengthy..I will try to make the link to it here. So here's hoping I can pull this off.
It's the Truth about Truth.

http://artkatzministries.org/articles/beyond-categories-2/

I tried. you might have to type it out on your own.

In Him,
alamb

Q & A

https://youtu.be/poBnN8FoOBk

Not to go too far off topic but to be clear about what you are putting forth.....
You wrote, "Regarding long-term bodily affliction in a faithful man: Yes, it can happen- we see it in the Bible in men like Job, in Trophimus in 2 Timothy 4, in the Apostle Paul who gloried in infirmities (2 Cor 12). ”

Are you suggesting that these passages are to be interpreted as testifying that these men had a chronic or terminal illness (disease)as opposed to being "afflicted” by either opposition to the gospel (being physically attacked) or the process by which we age and experience the failing of our flesh?

It's really sad that all of our military personal that fought for our country, and come home with PTSD and commit suicide, will enter hell's gates. Of course I don't believe this, I also don't believe God is blind, and at the very least, he might judge suicide on a case by case basis.

Some restrict God to only what he left us in his word, God is infinite, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-capable, there are no limits restricting God. Yet despite this, to their own harm His followers tend to minimize God's unlimited power by erroneous thinking.

For all that think they know everything about God and what he can or can't do.

Isaiah 40:28 - "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth, He will not grow tired or weary and his understanding no one can fathom.”

JFW, I take it your question was addressed to me since you quoted my statement from a previous post. Yes, Job and Trophimus definitely had chronic health problems- not certain about Paul, but probably.
2 Timothy 4:20: "but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick."
Job 2:4-8, Job 17:1, etc- Job was ill from chapter 2 until the time God restored him in Job 42. Every Christian who has ever died faithful did indeed die and their body is in the grave. The concept that bodily healing in this life is provided in the atonement has no basis in Scripture; only the concept of bodily healing in the next life for those whom He deems a faithful overcomer in Christ at the end of their course- that's when the full restoration of the body will happen. But that's really a separate topic since this thread is about those who choose to destroy their own bodies by suicide.

And regarding the previous post: Isaiah 40:28 is not a statement of rebuke for confining God to the Scriptures (He wants us to get our information about Him from the Scriptures!- see esp 2 Timothy 3:14-17, etc). Isaiah 40:28 actually is part of a statement to rebuke Israel for not turning to God in its despair; and an encouragement that if they do so He will be on their side to strengthen and help them in their low state. And this is what people in extreme weakness and despair need to be told. Beware of verses plucked out of context in an attempt to get them to say something that they are not actually saying.

Isaiah 40:28 in its context-
Isaiah 40:27-31: "27 Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the Lord, and my judgment is passed over from my God? 28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. 29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength. 30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall: 31 But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."

gt768 Beware of verses plucked out of context in an attempt to get them to say something that they are not actually saying.

Yes that question was addressed to you- if you’ll look at the top of this post (and my previous one) you will see your screen name "gt678” in the Re: section in bold font. This may help you navigate in the future-

We definitely have different interpretations of the passages you cited; Job (demonic attack) 2Tim (Trophimus was feeble/weak from being beaten while preaching with Paul) ... yet this is nothing to quarrel over.

MrBillPro, It sure was- particularly those who would quote Ephesians 2:8-9 without due regard for the same Apostle's own description of his preaching of the gospel and even his own warnings in the very same epistle.

Acts 26:19-23- "19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. 21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. 22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

Works meet for repentance= no sins not repented of and following through so as to get in line with God's law.
A proper grace period is a gracious chance to get in line with the standard; not a license to continue violating the standard

1 John 3:4-5: "4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin."

Romans 8:6-8: "6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Ephesians 5: "5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." (Ephesians 5:5-6)

You will answer to God for not rightly dividing His Word and turning His grace into a license to continue in sin.

Thanks Fletcher for that helpful tip.

No, I'm not going to quarrel over it. Yet I will tell you that I've seen people get discouraged and sidetracked over an ill body that believed they were supposed to be in perfect health through faith. And I'm sure others have taken false security and thought God was pleased with them because they were in great health. There is great potential for damage due to believing that bodily healing in this life is provided in the atonement; and I hope you'll reconsider your position and study the doctrine again in the fear of God. And I did forget to mention that Timothy is another faithful man who was undoubtedly frequently sick. You read 1 and 2 Timothy there- a little advice on treating his illness from the Apostle Paul; yet no rebuke nor warning for being sick, no instruction on how to get better besides the natural health tip in 1 Tim ch 5 on how to manage his often infirmities better. And then you see a lot of sober charges and warnings to Timothy about other things in the very same epistles. I do recommend studying 1 and 2 Timothy with this topic in mind.

gt768 wrote

"Works meet for repentance= no sins not repented of and following through so as to get in line with God's law. A proper grace period is a gracious chance to get in line with the standard; not a license to continue violating the standard."

----

Phip 3:5-6 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Before Paul became a Christian Paul claimed that according to the law that he was blameless.

The law can not give you life or save you.

The law can not make you righteous, holy, justify you or make you God's Child.

Paul kept the "standard" of the law but that did not save him.

Paul did not need to get in line with God's law but trough FAITH was fully justified.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

gt768...You will answer to God for not rightly dividing His Word and turning His grace into a license to continue in sin.

Let me help you with this, as most humble and worthy ministers would put it "WE" will answer to God for not rightly dividing His Word and turning His grace into a license to continue in sin"

Hello Vern, You take issue with statement:
""Works meet for repentance= no sins not repented of and following through so as to get in line with God's law. A proper grace period is a gracious chance to get in line with the standard; not a license to continue violating the standard."

To do away with the law and make it not binding is actually the essence of antinomian license and puts Christianity on par morally with Satanism. Not trying to shame you, but that is a logical statement if my statement above is truly false. Sin is the transgression of the law (1 john 3:4). If you could be a Christian under grace without being bound to God's law then nothing you did could or would be held against you by God (that is what many evangelicals actually believe too!)

The Scriptures you quoted are dealing with at least one of two things- law apart grace and/or justification through the rituals and ceremonies of the law of Moses. They said nothing about Christians not being under the moral law of God- because that is not what the Scriptures are teaching. IF the things prescribed by the Law of Moses ALONE could justify THEN the grace of Christ was unnecessary and Paul was indeed blameless before his conversion according to the righteous (or, justification) of the law. But the ceremonies of the Law of Moses pointed to Christ the Lamb of God who was to come and die for the sins of the world- they were not a means to atone for sin in and of themselves- if they had been Paul would not have needed Christ and the Law of Moses could have and would have justified him- and thus Paul's opposition of Jesus would have been justified and could have done no harm. But when Paul was converted to Christ who was the end (or, goal) of the law then he actually got in line with the Law as God intended it; and not as he and other zealous, misled Jews had been abusing it.

Romans 10:1-4- "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." (righteousness= justification in these verses)

Acts 28:23- "And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening."

Romans 3:19-22 "19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference"

The law itself doesn't justify apart from the atonement of Christ which it points to. We are no longer under the types and ceremonies of the law given through Moses which pointed to Christ- yet the moral commandments contained in the Law are still imperative, not as a means to atone for sins, rather, as a necessary aspect of faith. If we don't seek Jesus as our Lord and King, honor Him as our Lawgiver, then we should forget about partaking of the grace of His atonement. God's moral law IS the very definition of righteousness- and we only see the Apostle Paul honoring, upholding, vindicating, and mandating obedience to God's righteous standard of living. I showed in my previous post how Paul preached repentance (alignment with the law) and works meet for repentance in preaching Christ; and that was the very reason He was persecuted by the Jews. Why would they take salvation on those terms if doing the animal sacrifices in the law were enough to atone for their sins??? True faith submits to the moral law of God and the conditions of the covenant arrangement He has made available at the time- righteous Jews under the Old Covenant kept the moral and ceremonial aspects of the Law by faith. Faithful Christians who partake of God's grace keep His moral law and the New Covenant ordinances like baptism and the Lord's supper to the best of their ability. Every faithful gospel preacher upholds God's law, calls men to submit to it by (b/c Jesus is the Lawgiver who is Lord of Lords and King of King of Kings), and regards it as binding. Any who don't are unfaithful preachers and opponents of God's Supreme Authority who are not sent by God and misleading people to security in transgression and ultimately the fire of hell. We must follow Christ with the faith of Abraham who submitted to God's moral law and God's ordinances enjoined to him. His moral Law is THE TRUTH (as expressed perfectly in Jesus who was also a faithful Jew who kept the Mosaic ceremonies) and will never cease. Disobedience to the moral law is transgression, and those who violate it and think they'll yet receive grace in Christ are mocking God and under His wrath.

Psalm 119:142- "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth." (Psalm 119:142)

Genesis 26:5- "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

"30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." (Romans 3:30-31- Read Romans 4 then with these verses and the ones quoted above in mind)

Paul never ceased to be under God's law. 1 Corinthians 9:20-21- "20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law."

The Galatians nor anyone else were ever released from the moral law of God and New Covenant church ordinances: Galatians 5:19-21: "19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
1 Corinthians 16:1-2: "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."

Those who are quoting Paul but also opposing the need to submit to the law of God are opposing his message, as they are opposing every faithful man's message in the Bible. Figuratively speaking, they garnish their sepulchers but only prove by the totality of what they say and the views they express that they would not receive them nor heed them if they lived today.

Living a holy life is a "symptom” of true faith in Christ.

It is not a prescription for salvation or even maintenance of salvation.

The Gospel is not a message of performance-oriented acceptance with God. We are saved by the grace of the Crown, and we obey because we love the King. If we do not love the King, whatever begrudged obedience we may render is a sham. It is not salvation.

You wrote "Living a holy life is a "symptom” of true faith in Christ."

True faith in Christ surrenders to His authority and keeps His commandments- to say a holy life is a symptom of true faith in Christ implies it is His fault if we live unholy. Whether you claim to be a Calvinist or not, it is a Calvinistic statement.

You wrote "It is not a prescription for salvation or even maintenance of salvation."

Oh really! Did you get that from the Bible? It actually warns not to heed such words.

2 Peter 2:18-22 "18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Hebrews 12:14-17- "14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."

Revelation 21:27 "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

You wrote "The Gospel is not a message of performance-oriented acceptance with God."

It is not performance oriented in that we do not atone for our sins nor devise our own path to acceptance with God. It is performance-oriented in that we must cooperate with the intention of the grace of the King.

Look what the Apostle says in the midst of commands he gives on proper Christian living (i.e Christian performance):
Titus 2:11-14: "11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

Note the THAT in the passage below:
"14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

You wrote: "We are saved by the grace of the Crown, and we obey because we love the King. If we do not love the King, whatever begrudged obedience we may render is a sham. It is not salvation."

The grace of the crown has given us the opportunity to bow to Him and partake of the atonement He has provided for those who had lived in rebellion to Him before- and from there to prove our allegiance to His crown (works meet for repentance) in the midst of crooked and perverse world that is rejecting Him. The rest of your statement combined with your previous statements imply that begrudged obedience to the king is either acceptable obedience or that no one has to obey because some do so in a begrudged manner. Neither of these are true. If we turn our whole hearts to Him, our obedience won't be begrudged- it will be wholehearted and complete. If our obedience isn't wholehearted and complete, it will be shown in our attitude towards His commandments in the CHOICES we make in regards to the king's requirements- meaning a holy life is a necessity and a necessary aspect of salvation's prescription. If we appreciate and appropriate His grace, we will strive with our whole hearts to get in line with the laws of His kingdom. Otherwise our professed "love" for the King is a sham and a fatal self-deception. I'm sure many who have taken their own lives convinced themselves that they loved the King- but if they really had, they wouldn't have committed murder.

John 14:21-24 "21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

Hebrews 5:8-9- "8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him"

I’m new here, so I post this with fear and trembling. Please forgive me for writing in simple terms, and for not using the high verbiage and deep theological phraseology that many of you do. I'm just a simple man. Sometimes mental disorders are caused by physical conditions or imbalances. Many people (including Christians) experience depression. Elderly people can experience depression when they are suffering from the effects of Alzheimer’s Disease. I have known several people who served the Lord their entire adult life, including pastors and missionaries, who succumbed to something like Alzheimer’s, etc. when they got up there in years. I do not believe that God holds their depression or even their behavior against them, especially when they really have no control over it. Some in that state actually do commit suicide, and sometimes assisted suicide. Are we to say that they "lost” their salvation because of that? I think anyone who can read scripture understands that it is not up to us to "keep our salvation” since salvation is of Grace, not works. Therefore, it is my belief that neither does suicide due to physical or mental issues out of our control can separate us from the love of God. Nothing means nothing.

profitadune, what a great response! Some wonderful thoughts.

These are the kind of responses that cause division in interrupting scripture.

gt768 said "Oh really! Did you get that from the Bible? It actually warns not to heed such words."

We all must remember, to let our speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person. Colossians 4:6

There will always be disagreements about how best to interpret various Scripture passages, In my world, I can rest in the fact that our salvation does not depend on attaining perfect knowledge. As Christians our faith is grounded in Jesus Christ, not in the perfect interpretation of Scripture.

Gt768-

I ain’t no Calvinist.

I don’t see how what you have written differs one whit from what I wrote.

When I say a holy life is a symptom of true faith it means that someone who has true faith will live a holy life or at least strive to do so.

When I say living a holy life is not a prescription for salvation I mean it does not result in salvation. Eph 2:8-9.

But immediately after true salvation there is a desire to obey the King.

One is not saved by 80% obedience””nor by 100% obedience (which actually is possible over short periods, by the way). One is saved by having genuinely embraced the King and the life that logically follows from having such a King. None obeys completely, but we are commanded to do so, and true disciples have every intention of doing so. Failure to obey completely is a breach of the King's law, but it is not, in itself, damning. To inadvertently violate the speed limit is not to renounce your citizenship. Likewise, a child is not disowned by his parents because he forgets to do a particular assigned chore. There is grace in this Kingdom for those whose disobedience springs from weakness, ignorance or temporary insanity (James 3:2), and not from rebellion (Matt.26:41).

TMK, Thank you for clarifying. No, trying to live a holy life without turning to God through Christ by faith will not result in salvation. But that wouldn't really be a holy life.

I didn't say you were a Calvinist, only that what you said sounded Calvinistic. You wrote in your last post "But immediately after true salvation there is a desire to obey the King."

That statement also sounds Calvinistic. Calvinists teach that people get regenerated and then desire to live holy while the Scriptures teach one repents before their new birth. If I renounce my rebellion to the King, since in doing so I acknowledge His holiness and His will to lead me into holiness, then my desire to obey the King had to be there before He accepted me. But maybe that's what you meant.

I totally agree with the longer paragraph which you wrote. Jesus is the High Priest who must continually keep the record of His disciples clean through His Priesthood and there is such thing as a sin that leads not to death. What you said here is true and very important:

"To inadvertently violate the speed limit is not to renounce your citizenship. Likewise, a child is not disowned by his parents because he forgets to do a particular assigned chore. There is grace in this Kingdom for those whose disobedience springs from weakness, ignorance or temporary insanity (James 3:2), and not from rebellion (Matt.26:41)"

My contention in this thread has been that suicide could not fall into this category unless someone were truly temporarily insane and couldn't even comprehend what they were doing at all- it is by its very nature an act of rebellion.

Thank you for being willing to reason.

It sounds like being a Calvinist can make one un-welcomed here on this forum?

profitadune It sounds like being a Calvinist can make one un-welcomed here on this forum?

Sometimes I wonder if common sense, wisdom and grace are still welcomed here. No doubt theologians are, which is great if you have a 140 -170 IQ. I cherish the word of God and all the scriptures, but I don't understand them all, so some simple from the heart and wisdom explanations would be a great help. Laying out 50 scriptures, to prove your point, really just confuses me, may as well just post a link.
Carry on Solders.

MrBillPro, I refuse to treat anyone without grace. Since I am not an intellectual all I can bring to the table is my understanding of the Word, and hopefully a simple way to relating it to others. Having said that, yes my leanings are definitely toward the Reformed side of theology. I have seen during my brief time here, and before I signed up, that many here do not share my thoughts on that matter. Me? I just read the Bible and there it is. Most of the Bible is really not that hard to understand if we dont over think it.

As for truth of our understanding of scripture, I do question, in prayer, the truthfulness of what I believe to be true. In doing so, I have so far never been steered wrong in my understanding of what is true and what may not be true and what is flat out not true. Maybe in doing so I gain divine knowledge through the Holy Spirit and maybe by doing so I just hash it out in my head and come up with the best answer, who can say for certain? Either way, the process works.

The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, just not all at one time. (We probably could not handle it all at one time!) We should always approach scripture with a prayerful and teachable attitude. Good word, brother.

profitadune wrote

Some in that state actually do commit suicide, and sometimes assisted suicide. Are we to say that they "lost” their salvation because of that?

I do not know how much lower we can go. It makes me wonder if those that are saying suicide or assisted suicide/murder is ok, or those saying amen to such. Are they naive? Or is there something more sinister and dark behind it?

Profitadune-

There are calvinists and non calvinists here. We never see eye to eye on certain topics which is to be expected. Folks from both sides are welcome.

Steve- I have not seen anyone here say "amen” to suicide or who has said its "ok.”

TMK wrote

Steve- I have not seen anyone here say "amen” to suicide or who has said its "ok.”

By saying that God will overlook the act is implying it is ok.

To anyone reading this thread and have had, or are having thoughts of taking their own life. I say do not do such a thing! There is no repentance after the act! The place you will find yourself in will be for ever and ever and ever!

Blessings Steve

Steve, so if a married man has just started committing adultery with his secretary, and they're flying to France, and both are Christians "because Christians sin also" I know that hard for some to believe, and the plane crashes, and the both die before repenting, are they hell bound? Or is that sin somehow covered without repentance before you die? Or is any sin covered without repentance before we die? Sometimes I wonder did Jesus committed suicide, I mean after all, he could have told God he wasn’t going to do this. A lot of people commit suicide by cops, they just point a gun at the cop, knowing they’re going to get killed. There’s other ways to commit suicide other than taking your own life.

Since a person can only commit suicide once, once they have killed themselves they have repented.

-Daniel

You wrote "so if a married man has just started committing adultery with his secretary, and they're flying to France, and both are Christians "because Christians sin also" I know that hard for some to believe, and the plane crashes, and the both die before repenting, are they hell bound? Or is that sin somehow covered without repentance before you die?"

Answer-
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Acts 10:34,35
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Fletcher , What do you make of this?

If you have truly given your life to Jesus Christ and are trusting Him alone for your salvation, then He has cleansed you of all your sins””past, present and future. When we came to Christ, "God … forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).

I believe salvation depends on only one thing: what Jesus Christ accomplished when He died on the cross for us. Why did He do that? He did it for one reason: so He could become the final and complete sacrifice for all our sins. He was without sin, but on the cross all your sins and my sins were placed on Him, and He died in our place. As the Bible says, "Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God” (1 Peter 3:18).

I should have never let the evil one drag me back into this fruitless debate, but he knew I hate to argue/debate Gods word, because these debates always end up going south. For the second time I will leave you all to enjoy this debate, and I'll also leave you with such a simple scripture, most anyone can understand this scripture "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 KJV...I personally understand what "should not perish" and "everlasting life" means..so if someone commits suicide and believes in His only son, he made these two promises....now get to dissecting this one, Happy Trails to your all, and may you all try and understand what John 3:16 is saying, it's not science, it's God's most simple words.

MrBillPro wrote

Steve, so if a married man has just started committing adultery with his secretary, and they're flying to France, and both are Christians "because Christians sin also" I know that hard for some to believe, and the plane crashes, and the both die before repenting, are they hell bound? Or is that sin somehow covered without repentance before you die? Or is any sin covered without repentance before we die? Sometimes I wonder did Jesus committed suicide, I mean after all, he could have told God he wasn’t going to do this. A lot of people commit suicide by cops, they just point a gun at the cop, knowing they’re going to get killed. There’s other ways to commit suicide other than taking your own life.

Bill, If you are fair dinkum with this post and are not playing games, I fear you have never met the living God and are therefore still lost.

Please do not think I have said that in spite or anger or anything like that. I say that with all sincerity.

Blessings Steve

So if the commenter is correct, and a believer commits suicide and can not repent of it, they lose their salvation? So that would mean we lose our salvation every time we sin, until such time as we repent for THAT sin. Correct? So ultimately our salvation is solely dependent on us. Am I understanding this correctly? So salvation is through our efforts, and not of God?

If I am understanding this correctly, then salvation is in fact based on our works, and not of grace.

The real Jesus, the one of the Bible, is a righteous King who died to provide an atonement to apply to the repentant who willingly subject themselves to His Government, welcome His reign over them, and turn from transgression of His Laws. No one who can read John 3:16 in its context and say without mocking Jesus nor scorning common sense that you can believe in Jesus (the real one of the Bible whose goal is to save people from sin not to save people in sin) and partake of His grace while walking in darkness. Why are so many drawn to John 3:16 and not the surrounding verses that clarify its meaning? It's obviously the same reason why enemies of any Righteous authority figure who are looking to get away with their crimes and to find sympathy for their rebellion would seek to twist statements by that authority figure to try to claim they were justified in their crimes and had the promise of impunity. John 3:16 is actually a statement about God's pity and offer of pardon for condemned rebels against Him who will confess their treason, drop their arms, and submit to the terms of the program of being a faithful subject of the King (public confession and renouncing of your treasonous ways, proper labeling of your crimes, striving henceforth to be faithful to His Law and prove your repentance by your deeds, accountability from faithful, trusted subjects, discipline towards rehabilitation, final acceptance depending on completing this program faithfully). John 3:16 is not a guarantee of pardon or even a sliver of hope for pardon for those that continue living in sin on their own terms or those who return to doing so.

John 3:14-21:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Isaiah 66:1-2:
Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

You need to read your Bible and stop reading Calvinist authors. By the logic of Calvinist authors every man of God in Scripture is a heretic for insisting that people render to God due obedience or be condemned to hell. There are literally thousands of examples of such preaching from Scripture and you don't need to read your Bible for more than a few minutes to discern this unless you're confused by heeding slick teachers who say otherwise.

God has provided a covenant to mankind. He devised the covenant and He made a way for us to partake of it at His own labor and expense. That is how salvation is of God and not of man. Our salvation is dependent upon being in that covenant. Trying to be saved while not in that covenant and trying to somehow get around that is how the Bible condemns salvation by works. Submitting ourselves to the covenant and cooperating with the Author of the Covenant's intents and goals is to glorify Him and work through faith- and that is absolutely necessary for our salvation (James 2, Colossians 1:27-29, Titus 2:11-14, etc etc, etc).

We have to submit to the Light of Truth in Christ and enter into that covenant by meeting the King and Covenant-Giver's conditions of repentance and intent on faithful obedience. Within such submission and intent there is grace for failure to those who are striving with all their hearts to walk in the light and to please the King- and even these need to have Christ as their High Priest continually wash their record clean (when and if they sin). Future sins forgiven would equal no need to follow Christ as your Lord nor any continual need for Him as your High Priest. Future sins forgiven would rather mean you could accept His gift one time and then be finished with Him in reality afterwards (and THIS is what many want to believe, that is why OSAS is so popular and why many want to believe someone can commit suicide or die in adultery but still go to heaven).

No submission to His Lordship, no effort to be faithful, no continual dealing with Christ as our High Priest, no need to endure to the end faithfully on the strait and narrow way would make grace lawless and licentious. This supposed grace is false; and there are at least three books of the Bible WHOLLY reserved to warn about it and rebuke it (2 Peter, 1 John and Jude).

1 John 1:6 to 2:6 proves we need to walk in the light and not darkness- or we have not fellowship with Him (1:6-7), we need to confess our sins when we fail and not deny them (1:8-10), there is no need to sin and sin is not inevitable for the faithful (2:1a), Jesus is an advocate who has provided atonement for sins (2:1b-2:2) to apply to those who keep His commandments as the course of their walk; those who say they know Him but do not walk as He walked in obedience to God's commandments are liars (1 John 2:3-6).

If we strive to obey Him and tremble at His Word, we are not opposing salvation being of God. We are rather making ourselves eligible to be included in His covenant and to be partakers of the grace promised in His covenant. We must glorify Him and meet His terms. We mock Him to think we will be saved otherwise.

Nicely written, gt768... but dont we all sin? Did not Paul write about his struggle with his flesh? Certainly I am not promoting cheap grace, or continuing to live in a lifestyle of sin at all, but do you yourself not struggle with your own flesh? If not, please let me know how I may also achieve such a state.

Can you answer my question from my previous comment? Do we lose our salvation each time we sin, as a believer? Do we regain our salvation once we repent of a sin? If we forget to repent of a particular sin do we continue in a state of not having salvation? Is maintaining our salvation our responsibility, or is salvation of God?

Also, a few comments ago I spoke of aging elderly people who suffer from forms of dementia and Alzheimers who behave in strange ways, and struggle with depression, and sometimes yes, commit suicide as a result without have the full capacity of their minds. But they were saved and served God all their lives. Are they condemned?

It would be great if everything was as black and white as some here present things to be, but it just is not.

Thank you for what I perceive is honesty and sincerity on your part.

Yes, I struggle with my own flesh- but struggle doesn't equal capitulation to it. Romans 5 to 8 really answers your question. There is grace provided in Christ (the "much more" of the atonement) so that if we abide in Him we need not capitulate to our flesh. Someone who is unrepentant has an unbroken commitment to their flesh which will lead them to do evil, even sometimes evil which in itself they'd rather not do- because they are still at enmity with the Righteous One and a slave to their own flesh. On the other hand when we yield to the Lord and are led by His Spirit we have the promise that as we cooperate we will be delivered from sin's servitude. However there is often a lot of discipline that needs to be instilled and when we were trained in capitulating to our flesh it might seem like an uphill battle at times. The issue is are we surrendered to the King and do we really want His laws and His ways? If so, we can be confident of His mercy when we fail and His help in conforming us to the requirements of His Word? But do we really want that and are we doing what is in our power to have that? We need to prove that to God and to ourselves. Yet if our heart condemn us not and His Word is regulating our walk to the best of our knowledge, then we can have boldness before the throne of God and confidence that God is for us. We must get our record washed clean by repenting when we sin (1 John 1:9), yet not all sin is a departure from the Lord and His covenant- at least not initially- if we harden our hearts to any sin and refuse light, conviction, and a righteous cleansing then any sin can be deadly (Hebrews 3:12-15). So does a faithful man who fails get ejected from the covenant immediately- no. But if he hardens his heart he will get ejected eventually. God knows when- we ought to fear to provoke Him (Romans 11:22). That is the best I can answer your questions on that right now. Regarding the people with dementia I have qualified my stance on no salvation in suicide in this thread by saying that if someone is truly mentally incapacitated and it's not due to their own sin, then that is something the Judge hasn't left us enough info. in His Word to know what His verdict will be on that.

"Thank you for what I perceive is honesty and sincerity on your part." - you said

And you perceive correctly, sir. I will ponder your response and get back you. Not to argue or debate, but simply to express my thoughts with you, brother.

Very well sir. Glad to converse with you.

gt768 ”“ that is a reasonable and well thought out response. Thank you. By now you have probably figured out that I do not believe it is possible to lose one’s salvation. Understand though that I believe that when God truly saves a person, that person is changed and no longer desires the things of the flesh. That does not mean they never sin, but when they do sin they repent of it with sorrow. Anyone who claims to be saved, and yet joyously lives in perpetual sin has good reason to question whether they are truly saved. The main fruit of salvation is a repentant heart. I also believe that if someone appeared to be saved, but falls away into unrepentant sin (i.e. appears to have "lost their salvation"), then they were never saved to begin with. As John so rightly said: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” This reminds me of the parable of the seeds.

As for the dementia and Alzheimers question, I did not see where you previously answered that question. Thank you for taking time to repeat yourself. I appreciate it.

Also, comments like "you need to read the Bible and stop reading Calvinist authors..." does not bode well to civil conversations. I am not your enemy. We are brothers. I will always treat you as such, and expect the same from you.

Since you know absolutely nothing about me, I will ignore your jabs at me. Hopefully we can converse like we are now. Grace to you, brother.

It was not a jab at you and I'm sorry that you took it as such. I could see their influence and I labeled it for what it was. It would not even be a bad label unless they were misleading in their doctrine.

I never claimed to be Calvinist myself, and I'm not sure if you claim to be, but I used to believe very similar if not the same to what you said in your previous post to the one I'm replying to. I came to understand though that it was a view that stemmed from Calvinistic influence. The implication in such a view is no free will before nor after conversion- the concept that God saved me apart from any choice to serve Him and to be holy on my part before my new birth; and alongside that the concept that His grace will keep me on the right way apart from my choices afterwards- and a holy life is merely a by-product of these things. I saw that such a view did not line up with Scripture and Hebrews 3:12-15, Romans 11:22, and Christ's exhortation to the churches in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 particularly shook me out of it and demanded that I change or be dishonest with what I saw (edit: all those Scriptures were spoken/written to Christians in Apostolic churches whose initial conversion to Christ/genuine new birth was considered axiomatic and not in doubt). I see now all over the place that God deals with man as a free moral agent in both His fallen, lost state as well as in when in a regenerated state after the new birth. Lucifer was perfect and saw God face to face- yet he chose evil and fell from grace. Same with the angels who followed him in his rebellion. Adam was created pure and innocent and whole- yet he chose to disobey and fell from God's favor (i.e. grace) and his native purity. The lost man then still has the capacity to respond to God's grace in faith without first being regenerated; and he can after repenting and receiving the Holy Spirit choose to repent of his repentance by refusal to cooperate with God's grace by hardening His heart to the Word of God's demands and correction (how much more than Lucifer and Adam seeing they were never even corrupted by sin at all before their fall from grace?) I contend like I do in this thread seeing the danger that comes for not seeing the war at hand for what it really is.

1 Cor. 14:8- "For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?"

Matthew 24:9-13 "9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

What is the point in enduring in anything but real faith in a state of true grace???

Revelation 21:7-8 "7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Please read also the Book of Jude in light of these things. It puts them so clearly and concisely. Read it in light of the purpose of the book and the warnings stated in verses 3 through 8. It is Bible truth that is foreign to many today due to deception that is prevalent which paints heresy as sound doctrine and truth as heresy.

I’m limited on time today, so I cant respond as I wish to. First let me address the comment about reading the Bible. I was not offended by it, I just thought it was a little more snarky than necessary, but like I said: no big deal.

It seems we are both new to this forum, so here is the Reader’s Digest version of my history. My dad was/is a preacher (and still going strong in his 81st year), so I was raised a preachers kid. The church was your typical evangelical church. The gospel was preached, and I was brought up to believe in salvation as most people with similar backgrounds are. You go to youth group, you go to Christian camps, you go to Christian concerts, you go on mission trips. The dirty little secret was that I learned as a preachers kid how to live a double life. I wont go into the details, but I was not saved. I believed in God, in Jesus, I believed the Bible was true. I believed every word of it. I prayed the "sinner’s prayer” at least 25,000 times. Got married at 21 and about 6 years into the marriage we were seriously on the rocks. I was doing things that just about exploded our marriage. I hit rock bottom. It was then that God intervened and changed my heart. I had made the effort before that to be saved, but it never "took”. So we got back into church and reading His Word. Of course, I had a good foundation from my upbringing as far as knowing what to believe. I sometimes think it might have been better if I had had no clue about Christianity when God saved me. Like a clean slate. There were some erroneous thoughts and beliefs from my upbringing. For instance, I remember an old Keith Green song where he sang "He begs, He pleads” as if He can do nothing to bring us to salvation. Anyway, so a few years later we were sitting under a pastor who was Reformed. Honestly I had no idea what "Reformed” meant. Well, one Sunday he began a series in which he taught on Soteriology and the Doctrines of Grace. Two sermons in and we left that church. To me, everything he was saying was heresy. So I went on a 2 year journey to prove that pastor wrong. I studied the Word… I read books for and against Reformed Theology. Man, I was on a mission. At the end of those two years of intense study to prove it wrong, I came out the other side a full fledged believer in Reformed Theology. Other than the Bible itself, the one piece of writing that really got me there was "The Attributes Of God” by A.W. Pink. Also a few things by Spurgeon. So…that’s me, and that’s my history. So it sounds as though our lives run opposite of each other! That’s ok. There is grace, and grace abundantly.

(by the way, my wife and I just celebrated our 30th anniversary. God by His grace saved our marriage)

Mr Bill , You wrote "Fletcher , What do you make of this?

If you have truly given your life to Jesus Christ and are trusting Him alone for your salvation, then He has cleansed you of all your sins””past, present and future. When we came to Christ, "God … forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).”

Ok firstly that’s not what Colossians 2:13 actually says- it never says "past, present, and future sins are forgiven” but if you have been believing that’s what it is saying then that would explain allot as to how you came to the conclusions you have... and IF that is what it had said, then you would be correct in concluding that your salvation was limited to being forgiven of sin (justification) and that once forgiven it is impossible to "lose” the forgiveness one has already received hence salvation is cannot be "lost” ...

I’m not exactly sure where you got that idea from tho, it could’ve been from a well meaning albeit misinformed source, or by one whom was sent to deceive- in any case a clear and honest reading of scripture will readily expose the idea that since your sins are forgiven then you are heaven bound and nothing can stop it to be so ridiculously false that only someone whom is willfully lying to themselves could continue to believe it..
and Mr Bill, I’d be doing you no favor to allow you to embark on a vessel that is so full of holes that it is an impossibility for it to reach its destination without at least asking you to reconsider and reexamine the "sea worthiness” of the vessel in which your life will be in trusted.

So it is that which I will do... and I implore you Mr Bill with all that is in me, please at least set apart a time and seek the Lord Himself concerning these matters, fasting so as to be certain that it is indeed His voice, the voice of our Shepard, that you are hearing... even Jesus found it necessary to often get alone with the Lord and seek His will in prayer and fasting- how much more would we need to do so-

JFW, Hello friend. So are you saying that we CAN lose our salvation? That our salvation is solely dependent upon us to keep it? Am I reading that correctly? I ask this because if what you say is true, then I dont know about anyone else here but I apparently lose my salvation on a regular basis. I am figuring I am not the only one. Our only hope would be to cling to the Wesleyan Church's doctrine of Total Sanctification... a state in which we achieve sinless perfection. That's a lot to hope for, honestly. (I'm thinking that anyone who claims to have reached sinless perfection probably has an issue with the sin of pride.)

(typos from original now edited) Thank you for sharing your testimony. Very good to know your history and I appreciate you sharing.

I'll say this about Reformed Theology (which has different variations but is all united in adherence to Monergistic ideology and the Calvinist TULIP): It can sound a lot better than it actually is when taken and followed to its logical end. For example: The concept that salvation is all God and not dependent on man. Sounds pious, but look at the logical conclusions of it- if I have no role to play in my salvation then do I need to assent that salvation is all God and doesn't depend on me? Doesn't even that assent depend on me? If not, then who could ever reprove me for not assenting to that without being illogical? Is it not my responsibility to assent to the truth and to make use of God's grace pre and post conversion? If so, then logically I can fail in that? If I couldn't fail because my salvation is supposedly all God, then how and why was it my responsibility when it was guaranteed to happen because God's grace was supposedly irresistible? Another example: IF I have been rude in my previous posts, then whose fault was that? Whose responsibility is it to make it right? Is it all God's and not mine at all? If mine at all, then I have a part to play, I can potentially fail, and that would be my fault. God's grace working on or in me, and potentially enabling me if I cooperate, explains logically how my salvation can be of God and yet how I have a part to play in it is as well that I could fail in. When salvation is properly understood as within a covenant arranged and provided for by God that we need to enter into and continue in by a living, obedient faith, logic is then upheld and Scripture isn't contradictory. Did Jesus believe Christians' salvation depends on their cooperation with His grace? Absolutely.

Revelation 2:8-11 "8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

Mark 9:43-44: "43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: "44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

This truth is all over Scripture and thousands of examples can be given about man's need to cooperate with God's grace; and how his salvation is dependent upon his satisfactory cooperation in God's eyes. And from a Reformed/Calvinist viewpoint, if that were (in theory) heresy, it could never do any harm anyways. God's elect would in such a case all be found, regenerated, and all persevere by irresistible grace no matter what. But in reality it IS presumption to say God will do my part and I can't fail because my salvation is supposedly all dependent on Him- and that is the logical conclusion of reformed theology.

And I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm appealing to you by logic and Scripture because from all I can tell you're a sincere man who is willing to hear from someone who disagrees with him and test it honestly. I'll also say from my own experience that I've heard many things which helped me at the moment from preachers and teachers who turned out to be unreliable and misleading on closer examination- the reason some things they said initially helped me was that I was so far in the other direction and needed to be pulled from one ditch into the road; and what I heard accomplished that at the moment- but had I kept following them I would have been drawn into the other ditch. Example: There was a time I had this concept of God as impossible to please and that He was looking for occasion against me (edit: meaning that I thought He was going to rebuke me and not accept me no matter how faithful I was). I heard a preacher preach on the love and Fatherly nature of God and I was relieved in a way that encouraged me to seek Him and obey Him with confidence; nevertheless that preacher's doctrine and the sum of his preaching turned out to actually be in the other ditch- he actually believed and taught as a whole that it is legalism and Pharisaism to think you need to obey God and insist that others do so. I saw that heresy for what it was (antinomian license) and I stopped listening to him. If I had kept doing so, he would have led me into the ditch on the opposite side of the road of the ditch that I had been in. I'll also say that it is Scriptural to say God does plead with people to repent and turn to Him. I could give many examples from Scripture of this. The problem is that many non-Calvinists don't represent this right- they represent God's pleading as Him being a poor beggar rather than a Benevolent Authority figure seeking the best interest of His creatures in His pleading (i.e. "I don't need you but you need me and I would rather salvage you than destroy you if you'll consider your ways and turn to me"). The best books I know outside the Bible that rightly define Biblical salvation are from not well known authors and I'll gladly send some for free to any who email me asking for them.

You wrote
"JFW, Hello friend. So are you saying that we CAN lose our salvation? That our salvation is solely dependent upon us to keep it? Am I reading that correctly? I ask this because if what you say is true, then I dont know about anyone else here but I apparently lose my salvation on a regular basis. I am figuring I am not the only one. Our only hope would be to cling to the Wesleyan Church's doctrine of Total Sanctification... a state in which we achieve sinless perfection. That's a lot to hope for, honestly. ”

Indeed it is allot to hope for... yet it is my hope! 🙏🏻
For my God is mighty to save and since He is NOT the author of sin and desires that His children be purified, holy, led by His Spirit.... so perhaps the better more relevant question is "do I believe that God is so mighty that He has the audacity to claim that He can so save even a wretch like me, and that I can be conformed into the image of Christ... growing in Christ till Christ be fully formed in me this side of heaven....? ”
Well I’d have to say, yes sir I do believe it!
And if He says He can by His blood cleanse me from all sin, if I will walk in the light of truth in fellowship with Him,... cooperating with Him- then again sir, I believe Him!

As to the question "Are you saying can we lose our salvation?” Honestly sir it matters more what God says about this than what I do... He makes Himself clear enough on this point, how can I improve it?
Having said that, brother gt768 has indeed been quite gracious in offering an opportunity for any who would consider considering they might have missed something... at the end of the day it’s not even for ourselves that we would consider it, but for His namesake- so that we don’t effectively cheat Him out of that for which His blood was shed. It is in this that we "make our election sure”.
From my perspective it is quite simple,... He bought me, I don’t belong to me and therefore cannot any longer make autonomous self governing decisions regarding my life,... instead He commands me.
Are there times where I get distracted? Yes but they should be few a far between and always decreasing-
Are there times when I misunderstand what He is saying? Yes tho it should be rare and getting rarer
Are there times when I fall short carrying out His commands? Yes tho this too should become so rare so as to be a nonissue
Otherwise I’m saying God isn’t God enough to save me from my sin so He has to save me in my sin, which means either He is the author of sin or is impotent and I simply cannot confess that as it would be a lie.... so are you saying that God isn’t God enough to keep you from sinning? That the power of the devil to keep you in bondage to sin is stronger than the blood of Jesus Christ to set you free from it?
I simply cannot find this in my bible.... the truth is the truth even if I’m unwilling to submit to it to the extent required for it to purge me of the lie I’ve believed and lived....

A famous writer once wrote,”it is far easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled”

To that point, please consider this... IF what you believe about salvation is true- why would God put so many warnings in the New covenant? What could He possibly be warning His people (who can’t lose salvation)about?