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Dead in HIM

O
Onesimus4God

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

CRUCIFIED - DEAD To be crucified (past tense) one must be declared 100% dead.

Flesh, affections, lusts, DEAD. They that "are CHRIST's, are 100% DEAD with HIM. It is impossible to immerse yourself into HIS life, and yet not be 100% dead to your own life and will.

One can only conclude, as I understand it then, that only those who have done this, are immersed (baptized) into HIS life. The others, are imposters. They say they are "believers" yet their will is yet their "god". Or shall we say "gods". All the passions that deviate from searching out, knowing HIS will, and willing to die to obey HIM, reveal apostasy. Falling away from the TRUTH.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

In as much as you are dead to self, you are alive in HIM, with all the benefits of the inheritance lavished upon you. But if what you want, trumps what HE wants, you just may not be born again...yet.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The revelation of this vs 20 here, changed my life. NO LONGER I WHO LIVES. I must DIE FIRST, for HIM to live within me. HE does not come to live with me. HE comes to live instead of me. I DIE. HE LIVES.

All SIN and disobedience is proof that YOU/I STILL LIVE IN THE FLESH. Self will, instead of HIS WILL. HE CANNOT and WILL NOT ACCEPT THAT! You offer yourself as a living sacrifice, dead yet alive, or you have no access to GRACE. Selah.

J
JFW

AMEN!!!
This is the cardinal truth of our faith and my prayer is that the Lords word would rouse His children, awakening them from their slumber and raising their voices as one - shining like stars in the universe as they hold out the words of life to a depraved and crooked generation 🙏🏻

May we examine ourselves (by this scripture Gal 5:24) to be sure we are in THE faith-
The faith that was once delivered and which we received and wherein IF we stand we should not be ashamed but shall rejoice and say Holy Holy is the Lamb of God who takes AWAY the sin of the world that we (His children) may no longer live therein 🙏🏻

T
TMK

Was the Paul in Romans 7 saved, yet?

J
JFW

You asked if Paul was "saved” in Romans 7...
while the context for your question is clear, may you be more specific regarding the term saved as you are using it here?

People often use that term to mean something other than what the scriptures state, in fact it has become increasingly vague and ambiguous much like the term Christianity/Christian in that when someone uses it as an identifier it’s not clear what idea or position they intend to convey - so that you for clarifying and helping me to understand what you are asking.

T
TMK

Sure Fletcher-

The context was this statement in the OP:
/But if what you want, trumps what HE wants, you just may not be born again...yet./

Technically I should have asked was Paul born again... yet?

J
JFW

Ahhhh that helps!

From a straight reading of that chapter culminating with Paul crying;

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”

The straight answer would be, no-
At least not until which point he realized that he (himself) was the problem and sought to be delivered...

Interestingly from a syntactical standpoint, just the contrast between chapter 7 to 8, regarding the number of times "I " is employed reveals that something significant took place after the 24th vs of chapter 7 whereby the writer himself is no longer the focus but rather the truth of what God has accomplished for us through Christ Jesus and just how He provided for us, He expects us to actively participate in that we are being led not by our flesh (ie;being our own God, making decisions based on the knowledge of good and evil) but by the Spirit of God,... the degree to which we see our need of Him and submit to His will (denying our will/flesh) is the degree to which we are being "saved” which is why in scripture it (salvation unto eternal life) is referred to as a "hope”...

In being totally honest with you,.. I believe "salvation” to be far far more difficult and costly than any of us (in the western world) would even begin to imagine,...
So it seems we (different denominations) have picked our favorite
"-tions” (reformatTION, justificaTION, regeneraTION, sanctificaTION, consercraTION, etc...) and reduced salvation to nearly fit inside just one of these in an easily (to swallow) quantifiable way, a formula if you will... but this is not the testimony of scripture.

And if the Exodus doesn’t paint an eye opening picture of Gods requirements of us then what else is there??
Here we have a clear picture of people being "saved”- "delivered” - "set free”- "kept”- "covered”- "led” etc... etc... and yet out of the many (possibly 2 million) that were "saved” only 2 from that generation entered the promised land, with the rest being destroyed by God because of their unbelief and this being referenced in the New Covenant as an example to us lest we fall by the same patterns 😳 errrr ummm hello!??
Now God was plenty patient and they were clearly given grace in that they had the cloud of mist, the column of fire, mana from heaven, water from rock,.... and yet just like them we want to turn back to our flesh/the world to seek its provisions and we think we are safe for destruction because of grace?!!! 🥺 that for some reason, even tho the whole testimony of scripture... including the words of our Lord Himself telling us "few there be that enter” so to "strive to enter the straight gate”... says otherwise, that we are somehow gonna get to live all friendly with the declared enemy of our Lord (world/flesh) and still get the golden ticket 😰... I can’t imagine a more clear depiction of deception and so the scriptures saith "except ye repent, ye shall likewise perish” -


T
TMK

I believe Saul/Paul was born again the second he said "Who are you, Lord?” in Acts 9:5. The moment he recognized Jesus as Lord and had every intention of being a bond-servant of Christ.

Paul’s admits to a struggle with the flesh in Rom 7, as all believers do. But he was still born again in the midst of the struggle. We are not saved by works nor are we kept saved by works. Nothing could be clearer in the NT than that fact. True faith will produce works without doubt but this is not a "chicken or the egg” type dilemma. Faith comes first and works flow from faith.

J
JFW

Please help me to understand... are you saying that the Romans 7 "experience” was not a current one but was the writer referring to a time when he was born again?
Or are you suggesting that the Romans 7 "experience” was just another everyday average struggle with the flesh that all believers must endure?

S
Sree

I have heard lot of explanation on Romans 7 and 8, none have been logically and spiritually balanced compared to Zac Poonen's teaching on this subject. Romans 7 is a life where Paul after being born again lived as a legalist. We have all experienced this phase in our Christian life in which we instead of living by Spirit, live by law. Romans is a progressive book. In romans 6 itself Paul is done with Justification, Romans 7 is living by Law instead of Spirit. Romans 8 is death to law and alive in Spirit.

I would suggest everyone to Listen to Zac Poonen's verse by verse study of Romans 7 and 8. They are wonderful, I am sure most believers have got wrong understanding of Romans 7 and 8.

https://cfcindia.com/verse-by-verse/Romans

T
TMK

Fletcher-

I do believe that true believers experience struggles with the flesh. Dying to self means not giving in to those struggles. The fact that there is a struggle does not mean the person is not born again. But now they NOTICE the struggle, because they are born again, and desire to overcome.

Yes, I believe it is an everyday struggle. Just my honest opinion.

J
JFW

Thank you for clarifying...

And yes we will (according to scripture) experience different trials and struggles in our flesh and with our flesh however the experience being illustrated in Romans 7-8 is again (according to scripture) distinctive even from a syntactical perspective...

But perhaps we are talking past one another and in an effort to better understand you,... can you explain what you mean when you use the phrase "born again”?

We could possibly be using this term differently-

T
TMK

//can you explain what you mean when you use the phrase "born again”?//

Is that a trick question?

J
JFW

Not at all ....

How could you be tricked by helping me to understand what you are saying when you use a phrase that may mean something different to me?

Not necessarily incompatibly different but there is likely some difference worth noting and it could be that I am misusing the term to include more than it does and thereby unwittingly misspeaking when I use it-

T
TMK

Being born again is a place of "entering” whereby God grants eternal life to a person who places his faith in Jesus Christ, meaning he believes correctly about who Jesus was, and that his death on the cross was necessary as an atonement for sin. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12. Repentance is a necessary part of this process.

The issue on the table seems to be whether anything is required in addition to faith for a person to be born again. I would strongly argue "no.” Where I might be willing to argue is what "saving faith” means or what it means to "believe.” It means more than mental assent but I am not sure how much more is possible to state with certainty, which is why we are admonished to examine ourselves.

J
JFW

Yes we are using that term to describe different events- that is why I had misunderstood what you were intending...

C
cup

I would like to know what two events you are referring to.

E
Elibeth

I believe Fletcher has explained it in detail,... Although my love and care is also w/ you other brothers.

Should we not,.. or in other words,.. would it not be of the highest importance to re-examine the true meaning of some important words, and how they are used in Scriptures?

Words that, that have been taken down through a ‘tradition’ , to take on a different meaning ,.. a softer meaning,.. a distorted meaning, rather than the original intention?

A real study of these Words,...

Here are just some of those Words:

*Jesus’ Name: What is His Name ? Jesus’ Name is NOT just *Jesus*,..
His Name is *the whole Word of God.

*The true meaning of ‘Faith’ , and how it is used in the Bible ?.. please consider *Abraham* faith, God, Who is Spirit, spoke to Abraham,..Abraham heard God,.. He *Believed* it was God,.. *Obeyed God after being ‘led by the Spirit of God

* the true meaning of ‘Believe’ .. how it is used in the Bible. ?(refer back Abraham)

* and what about the *Faith of Jesus, or Jesus’ Faith that He heard His Father,God,.. and walked it out.. obeyed (The Faith of Jesus Christ)


* Grace, ,. And how it is used according to Lordship in His kingdom that we
have been called into ?

If the kingdom of God, .. (The Word), That we have been called into,is a resurrection Life,..Where The Lord resurrects His very Life in us, to Live out His Life in us,.. ( Not I that liveth, but Christ that Liveth in me)....ye are dead. ... (in order to Live).. Spiritually minded,.. led by His Spirit.

But the carnally minded is death,..( to the Life of God)

Paul says that it is *THE* high calling’ of God ,.. (God,..The Word)

We seek not to be deceived,... and our hearts desire to help others that may be deceived.....

just truly caring,

””””””””””-♥️
elizabeth

T
twayneb

.
I believe Saul/Paul was born again the second he said "Who are you, Lord?” in Acts 9:5. The moment he recognized Jesus as Lord and had every intention of being a bond-servant of Christ.

Paul’s admits to a struggle with the flesh in Rom 7, as all believers do. But he was still born again in the midst of the struggle. We are not saved by works nor are we kept saved by works. Nothing could be clearer in the NT than that fact. True faith will produce works without doubt but this is not a "chicken or the egg” type dilemma. Faith comes first and works flow from faith.

Paul talks in Romans 6 about baptism into Christ's death through which the old man is dead and the new life is now the life of Christ living in me. Paul then contrasts his life under the law as a Pharisee with the new life in Christ described in Romans 6. (Notice he talks about being married to the law and then through death being free to be married to another.)So while Paul was a believer when he wrote Romans 7, he is describing his life before Christ while he was attempting in the flesh to follow God by keeping the law. He then turns around again at the end of the chapter and brings up back to the new life in Christ and the victory that we have when we walk in the Spirit rather than walking in the flesh (our own effort).

I do not believe Paul was talking about a believers struggle in any way, shape, or form. Our problem in interpreting in that way is that we are trying to interpret scripture through the lenses of our own flesh and emotion rather than through the lenses of the victory that we have in Christ . Recall that Paul makes statements in chapter 6 of the absolutely unequivocal victory over sin that we have through our baptism in to Christs death and resurrection by His life.

T
twayneb

As to being born again, we also find that in Romans 6. It is a baptism into His death and a resurrection to new life in Him. When He died, we died with Him. But we must through faith surrender ourselves to that death and be resurrected by the Spirit into new life. Remember Jesus said that if any man would come after me let him first deny himself and take up his cross and follow Jesus. Follow Him where? To His death and resurrection.

God, I am done with living for me. I believe that You died for me and will resurrect me to new life in You. So I lay my life down at your feet, knowing that Your death and resurrection bring me forgiveness and new life.

It is a spiritual transaction.

That is why water baptism is so amazing. It is the physical picture of death, burial, and resurrection, of spiritual rebirth and new life in Him. Water baptism is the picture, the physical representation if you will, of the actual baptism described in Romans 6.

I
InTheLight

Romans 7 is a life where Paul after being born again lived as a legalist. We have all experienced this phase in our Christian life in which we instead of living by Spirit, live by law.

I believe that this is a very good observation, but there's more to consider.

It's interesting how discussion of Romans 7 always seems to revolve around whether Paul is thinking about his condition before or after conversion. But the question of Christian or Non-Christian hardly enters his line of argument.

Paul's focus is on the relationship between man and the law, whether the man is Christian or not. A Christian is certainly not under the law, but should he turn back to it instead of remaining totally dependent upon the grace of God in Christ Jesus, then he will find himself just as helpless as a non-Christian and, like him, having nothing more to rely upon than his own strength of character. So the tragedy repeats itself: sin finds occasion through the commandment.

In Christ,

T
twayneb

Ron: You have a good point. If I as a believer return to trying to do this thing on my own effort rather than as the fruit of abiding in Him, I will experience the same frustration.

S
sermonindex

So while Paul was a believer when he wrote Romans 7, he is describing his life before Christ while he was attempting in the flesh to follow God by keeping the law...I do not believe Paul was talking about a believers struggle in any way, shape, or form. Our problem in interpreting in that way is that we are trying to interpret scripture through the lenses of our own flesh and emotion rather than through the lenses of the victory that we have in Christ.

Brother Travis,

Thank you for succinctly and accurately summarizing the central truth of Romans 7, in just a few words, as well as making an astute, spiritually discerned observation about the reason there is rampant misunderstanding and wrong teaching about this critically important message from Paul (including, sadly, from such prominent, well-respected, popular voices, such as the one referenced in this thread).

Despite the never-ending discussions, debates, questions and arguments which surround this section of the Bible, it should be abundantly clear - to the spiritual person, guided by the Holy Spirit, who is experiencing the same victory in the Spirit as the apostle did - Paul is describing, in painstaking detail, the stark contrast between the old nature (prior to/without Christ), bound by the fleshly inability to obey God's Law, and the new nature in Christ, by the power of the Spirit - which is now able to fulfill the Law!

You are correct to point out those who do not have a clear, simple understanding of this are not discerning things from a spiritually healthy perspective. People who are not yet truly born anew, having received the new heart/nature and ability to walk by the Spirit's overcoming power, mistakenly cite Romans 7 as the excuse for their carnal frustrations. Ironically, they often go on to cite the first verse of Romans 8; BUT, fail to continue on with the rest of Romans 8, which describes the reason there is no longer condemnation for those truly in Christ - the new law of the Spirit of life! Romans 8 is a descriptive affirmation - to those alive in Christ and walking by the Spirit - putting into words the overcoming, flesh-subduing life found under the new covenant, which God makes with those He calls to the knowledge of Himself.

I recall the way, for years before I was baptized in the Spirit of God, I knew there was something wrong and missing in my life. Despite having thought I had "received Christ," my flesh still ruled my being. No amount of consolation - from those who relied upon the flimsy, false notion we are always bound to struggle and fail - again, citing Romans 7 as their rational - would satisfy my desire to realize the actual truth of new life in Christ Jesus. Praise the name of the Living Heavenly Father, Who eventually saw fit to more clearly reveal His Son to me and seal me with the Holy Spirit! Only then, due to both experiencing the very fulfillment of the Law in my life and spending time letting God give me His spiritually discerned wisdom and understanding about such matters (see 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 NASB) was it possible to properly understand the reason Paul wrote Romans 6-8 the way he did.

It is with humble thankfulness and by God's mercies and wisdom alone, please trust, I convey my parallel agreement with you, Brother in MO. Yet, also born of a thankful heart in Christ, I boldly say to anyone who attempts to add to the truth of Christ and His pure teachings, about the new covenant, such mishandling and speculative teachings about Romans 7 only serve to mislead, confuse and deceive many....

T
TMK

Matthew Henry:
””””””””””””””-
It seems rather to be understood of the struggles that are maintained between grace and corruption in sanctified souls. That there are remainders of indwelling corruption, even where there is a living principle of grace, is past dispute; that this corruption is daily breaking forth in sins of infirmity (such as are consistent with a state of grace) is no less certain. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, 1 Jn. 1:8, 10. That true grace strives against these sins and corruptions, does not allow of them, hates them, mourns over them, groans under them as a burden, is likewise certain (Gal. 5:17): The flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other, so that you cannot do the things that you would. These are the truths which, I think, are contained in this discourse of the apostle. And his design is further to open the nature of sanctification, that it does not attain to a sinless perfection in this life; and therefore to quicken us to, and encourage us in, our conflicts with remaining corruptions. Our case is not singular, that which we do sincerely strive against, shall not be laid to our charge, and through grace the victory is sure at last. The struggle here is like that between Jacob and Esau in the womb, between the Canaanites and Israelites in the land, between the house of Saul and the house of David; but great is the truth and will prevail. Understanding it thus, we may observe here,

1. What he complains of-the remainder of indwelling corruptions, which he here speaks of, to show that the law is insufficient to justify even a regenerate man, that the best man in the world hath enough in him to condemn him, if God should deal with him according to the law, which is not the fault of the law, but of our own corrupt nature, which cannot fulfil the law. The repetition of the same things over and over again in this discourse shows how much Paul's heart was affected with what he wrote, and how deep his sentiments were. Observe the particulars of this complaint. (1.) I am carnal, sold under sin, v. 14. He speaks of the Corinthians as carnal, 1 Co. 3:1. Even where there is spiritual life there are remainders of carnal affections, and so far a man may be sold under sin; he does not sell himself to work wickedness, as Ahab did (1 Ki. 21:25), but he was sold by Adam when he sinned and fell-sold, as a poor slave that does his master's will against his own will-sold under sin, because conceived in iniquity and born in sin. (2.) What I would, that I do not; but what I hate, that do I, v. 15. And to the same purport, v. 19, 21, When I would do good, evil is present with me. Such was the strength of corruptions, that he could not attain that perfection in holiness which he desired and breathed after. Thus, while he was pressing forward towards perfection, yet he acknowledges that he had not already attained, neither was already perfect, Phil. 3:12. Fain he would be free from all sin, and perfectly do the will of God, such was his settled judgment; but his corrupt nature drew him another way: it was like a clog, that checked and kept him down when he would have soared upward, like the bias in a bowl, which, when it is thrown straight, yet draws it aside. (3.) In me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good, v. 18. Here he explains himself concerning the corrupt nature, which he calls flesh; and as far as that goes there is no good to be expected, any more than one would expect good corn growing upon a rock, or on the sand which is by the sea-side. As the new nature, as far as that goes, cannot commit sin (1 Jn. 3:9), so the flesh, the old nature, as far as that goes, cannot perform a good duty. How should it? For the flesh serveth the law of sin (v. 25), it is under the conduct and government of that law; and, while it is so, it is not likely to do any good. The corrupt nature is elsewhere called flesh (Gen. 6:3, Jn. 3:6); and, though there may be good things dwelling in those that have this flesh, yet, as far as the flesh goes, there is no good, the flesh is not a subject capable of any good. (4.) I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind, v. 23. The corrupt and sinful inclination is here compared to a law, because it controlled and checked him in his good motions. It is said to be seated in his members, because, Christ having set up his throne in his heart, it was only the rebellious members of the body that were the instruments of sin-in the sensitive appetite; or we may take it more generally for all that corrupt nature which is the seat not only of sensual but of more refined lusts. This wars against the law of the mind, the new nature; it draws the contrary way, drives on a contrary interest, which corrupt disposition and inclination are as great a burden and grief to the soul as the worst drudgery and captivity could be. It brings me into captivity. To the same purport (v. 25), With the flesh I serve the law of sin; that is, the corrupt nature, the unregenerate part, is continually working towards sin. (5.) His general complaint we have in v. 24, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? The thing he complains of is a body of death; either the body of flesh, which is a mortal dying body (while we carry this body about with us, we shall be troubled with corruption; when we are dead, we shall be freed from sin, and not before), or the body of sin, the old man, the corrupt nature, which tends to death, that is, to the ruin of the soul. Or, comparing it to a dead body, the touch of which was by the ceremonial law defiling, if actual transgressions be dead works (Heb. 9:14), original corruption is a dead body. It was as troublesome to Paul as if he had had a dead body tied to him, which he must have carried about with him. This made him cry out, O wretched man that I am! A man that had learned in every state to be content yet complains thus of his corrupt nature. Had I been required to speak of Paul, I should have said, "O blessed man that thou art, an ambassador of Christ, a favourite of heaven, a spiritual father of thousands!" But in his own account he was a wretched man, because of the corruption of nature, because he was not so good as he fain would be, had not yet attained, neither was already perfect. Thus miserably does he complain. Who shall deliver me? He speaks like one that was sick of it, that would give any thing to be rid of it, looks to the right hand and to the left for some friend that would part between him and his corruptions. The remainders of indwelling sin are a very grievous burden to a gracious soul.

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