My wife and I recently had someone take advantage of us, lie to us, break our trust, and the husband in the situation verbally abused my wife.... over the phone. (He wasn't man enough to do it in my presence... I'm not beyond hurting someone who treats my wife in such a manner, and I am well trained to do so)Anyway, his wife was involved in all this too.Well, things kinda blew over, and we forgave them in our hearts... and just moved on and put it behind us. It's been a few months, and finally they contacted us and asked for forgiveness. We of course extended forgiveness but informed them that the friendship we had before could not be the same... at least not right now. Our trust had been broken, and I don't want this man around my family.I got a scathing email from this dude informing me that I need to get right with God because forgiveness means that we forget and carry on as tho nothing ever happened. I shouldn't hold them at arm length, and by doing so I am demonstrating that I havent forgiven themMy opinion is that if I get bit by a dog once, it's the dog's fault... if I get bit by the same dog a second time, it's my fault.Anyone have any thoughts on this?Krispy
Forgiveness... your thoughts
He wasn't man enough to do it in my presence... I'm not beyond hurting someone who treats my wife in such a manner, and I am well trained to do so I enjoy the story of the apostle Peter who watched as his wife was being martyred and said to her I'll see you in heaven. I think there's nothing in this life worth keeping me from "Our Father's forgiveness", no matter what. I speak as one who has been through the fire in this respect, as well as my wife of 18yrs. Forgiveness is instant, but if you see this individual as a christian brother you need to call him into accountability and follow the steps Jesus taught on with one or two witnesses. You know the passage. But if he's not a saved person,?.."sinner can't do nothing but sin". In the area of restitution, genuine repentance will being real restitution, unless he's in a situation where monetary restitution is imposible, then if he explains to you and your wife the full situation, you have an obligation to forgive and restore the friendship or at least ask God to bring about restoration and remove all bitterness and suspection of a future mishap-sin-ect....In the church we lack in the area of christian ethical teachings and that's why there's so much confusion in the relationships we form in our local churches. Rember Jesus short circuted alot in His teaching in the area of us lending to one another. He said to give and not expect it in return. I might make a suggestion that you take your "red letter edition" of the bible and just read through the red letter portion of the gospels ----Matt-Mark- Luke- John, just a one or two sitting causual reading, prehaps with your wife and just let the Lord speak to you in His own word out of His Word.
KrispyKrittr wrote:I got a scathing email from this dude informing me that I need to get right with God because forgiveness means that we forget and carry on as tho nothing ever happened. I shouldn't hold them at arm length, and by doing so I am demonstrating that I havent forgiven themKrispyYea, you might have to forgive them but I still haven't found in my Bible were it say's you have to hang out with them. :-) forgiveness means that we forget and carry on as tho nothing ever happened.Yea, let me know when you find out how to forget like nothing happened without some sort or meds. or Brain damage. :-?
Let me point out... both are Christians.One thing that makes me suspect is that when asking for forgiveness it would seem to me there would be a little more humility than to inform the person you're asking forgiveness from that they are not forgiving you correctly... know what I mean? That just strikes me wierd.I've forgiven them anyway, just not ready to trust them. You have to earn trust.Krispy
"I'm not beyond hurting someone who treats my wife in such a manner, and I am well trained to do so."Krispy, I hear you, except you are working out of anger and not love. I too am "well trained to do so", but the pacifist example of Jesus rules me and so it is never an option. Preventing violence is our duty and sometimes this may take some level of restraining physical force to prevent a greater harm. (Like taking someone down who enters your house with bad intent.) But in this incidence it sounds like your wife was not physically threatened, just seriously insulted and betrayed. You were justifiably angry, on the human level. But I think we are being called to a higher one. As for forgiving them, you are right and it sounds like they are being judgemental of you. Simply say, "time heals, and we need some now. Can we sort this out later when WE are ready as well as you."Bubbaguy
Have you ever thought about the sense of 'forgiving sins'. Isn't it the sinner who needs forgiveness rathet than the sins? The word for 'forgiveness' here is actually 'aphesis' which really means to send something away. 'remission of sins' and 'forgivenenss of the sinner' is the real sense of all this. In this sense 'forgiving sins' means to send them away from you. It is the image of the scapegoat.Another word is 'be gracious' which is the word used in Col. 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. We are to 'gracious' - as Christ. You may recall that the best the prodigal thought he could hope for was 'forgiveness' and a place in the servants' quarters. But the Father had a different view of things. This was no 'arms length' forgiveness.I recall hearing a story of a preacher who returned to visit a church after and interval of a year or so. He met an old lady at the door and began to talk to her about the things he had heard during his last visit. "Are you alright?" he asked "I know you had gone through a difficult time when I was last here". "I'm fine" said the old lady. "and are you alright in yourself" he asked "I remember that some folks in the church had been very unkind to you". "No, I don't remember that" said the old lady. "But you must" said the preacher "I remember you telling me". "No" said the old lady "I don't remember and I remember the day I decided not to remember".There is a difference between 'not remembering' and 'forgetting'. God has not said He will forget our sins but that He will not remember them. This is even better than forgetting, because if I forget someone might remind me, but if I refuse to remember they can't remind me however hard they try. Did you notice how hard the other brother tried to remind the Father of the behaviour of the younger son? and the Father's reaction?Biblically, forgiveness is always with reconciliation in view. To say 'I will forgive but I can't forget' may be absolutely true i human terms, but we are no longer 'only human' and we may become partakers of the nature of Him for whom it is also possible to 'forgive and to refuse to remember'.this is not a put-down for the original post, but an encouragement to seek God for the necessary grace to behave as He would. He never did say this would be easy; in fact, He said it would cost us our lives. How are we to understand 'forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us'? Do we really want God to forgive us at 'arms length'?“And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.”(Luke 15:20-24, KJVS)
As many others have, I’ve read entire books on forgiveness but these few short paragraphs by Ron have been more of an encouragement than any work I have read and brings much into sharp focus of what Christ desires in and through us.Thank You Philologos,tonys
Krispy, I hear you, except you are working out of anger and not love. I too am "well trained to do so", but the pacifist example of Jesus rules me and so it is never an option. Preventing violence is our duty and sometimes this may take some level of restraining physical force to prevent a greater harm. (Like taking someone down who enters your house with bad intent.) But in this incidence it sounds like your wife was not physically threatened, just seriously insulted and betrayed. You were justifiably angry, on the human level. But I think we are being called to a higher one. Really the point I was making is that his threats were over the phone, and they would not have been made to her face if I was present... because he wouldnt dare to. Not sure if that really is a relevent point except to say that thhe threats and verbal abuse occurred... and it wasnt something that I would have allowed.Krispy
Philologos... as someone who I deeply respect on here I wish to take my time absorbing what you wrote and understand it completely. Skimming over the post, I can say that you're probably on the right track. I'll get back to this later... gotta run for now...Krispy
I agree with TonyS's response to what Philo has shared with us on this subject. MC
I found this a couple weeks ago when I was doing some research on the church in the Solomon Islands, (Guadalcanal....ooorah) there's been terrible ethnic strife over there, murderous and barbarous....this guy Mark Hurst spoke of the myths of forgiveness, I'll paste them and paste the URL of the page::Myth 1: Forgiving means forgetting. The reality is that remembering is essential for forgiveness. Myth 2: Forgiving means accepting the offence. The reality is that naming the offence is sinful and unacceptable is essential to forgiveness. Myth 3: Forgiving is automatic. The reality is that anger, hatred, and bitterness follow naturally from an offence. Myth 4: Forgiving is quick and a one-time event. The reality is that forgiveness is a process. Myth 5: Forgiving means the relationship is reconciled. The reality is that forgiveness does not equal reconciliation. Forgiveness is part of peace building that allows us to break the chains of the past and enter into a new, more hopeful futurehttp://www.pacificwacc.org/toforgive.htm
Hey Neil...Dispite all of our differences, there are times when I could just kiss you. (On the cheek of course!)That was awesome, and so very true, and I thank you for sharing that, brother.Krispy
Biblically, forgiveness is always with reconciliation in view. I've contemplated on what Philologos posted yesterday... and I think if we couple together what Neil posted, and what Philologos posted... we have something real. Forgiveness is a process that we need to work thru. When someone gets burned bad by someone, because we are human, forgiveness is not something we can do automatically... not in our flesh anyway. Actually, in our flesh godly forgiveness is impossible.But we do need to come to a point where we "decide not to remember". Kind of like when we decided to repent. There are a lot of decisions to be made in this walk we walk call Christianity. I think too many times we think God is gonna do it all for us. No... but He will help us. Praise God.Krispy
Neilgin wrotethis guy Mark Hurst spoke of the myths of forgiveness, I'll paste them and paste the URL of the page::This is the other side of the coin but absolutely right too. This basis would prevent what I shared becoming a nice theory. Thanks Neil, this is good stuff; its gone straight into my notebook. :-)
hello, KrispyKrittr my friend."forgiveness is not something we can do automatically... not in our flesh anyway. Actually, in our flesh godly forgiveness is impossible."[font=Georgia]not in our flesh anyway. Actually, in our flesh godly forgiveness is impossible." [/font]What does this mean? having in mind that my ex husband has caused me extreme suffering for 20 yrs. And treats our adult children in a cruel manner. They yearn for his love which he does not give and he plays each one against the other. Likened to a human game playing. These are my children also and I have never been able to intervene, because of his lies.He even managed 5years ago to have me Bannished from my Eldest Sons wedding. I was aloud to go to the church so I did see the Wedding and I stood with God at the back of the church and he covered me so much that I did not feel the humiliation in front of people I knew. (My brother and mother were with me)My Eldest Son who became estranged from me when I left the Marital home 15years ago. He has been seeing some truths about his dad and my son has let me have my Grandaughter twice a week, since she was born. He finds it difficult to let me into his life. He speaks a bit more to me now and I patiently wait on God for good outcomes for all my Children. "God in their lives. I live in hope."And so I have had to continually let go of my unforgivness toward my ex. But have always been told I have to forgive. Which I have asked Jesus to help me to do, through the years.To entertain speaking to him and being friendly is out of the question. I would not invite him to my table. There are further, very strong reasons why.ellie
not in our flesh anyway. Actually, in our flesh godly forgiveness is impossible. I can do all things thru Christ who strengthens me... the flip side is that without Him I can do nothing.Thats what it means... it's as simple as that.Krispy
I see in ellie's post a good question here. What are we to do when a person is persistent in offending with a high hand? What if they never turn and say to us "I repent." What if they say- "I'm going to keep driving my daggar in and if you don't like it- you can lump it. And as a matter of fact- I don't want your forgiveness!" What then? Alexander the Coppersmith was such an one. Paul said he "done me much evil." Interesting is his reply. Steven cried out "lay not this sin to their account" (Acts 7), yet Paul writes "... the Lord reward him according to his works." By tradition we could say that it is among the last words he ever penned. he ended the whole of his volumous works with that statement just a few verses from the end. What is the difference between the situation with Paul and the situation with Stephen? Had Alexander the Coppersmith highhandedly sinned until he reached the place where John said "I do not say that he shall pray for it..."?
I have been looking at your reply and looked again and again puzzled and then suddenly, (I don't know if you know this saying), The penny dropped. And I went, right.. I see it.I now understand Praise God....And this next one. I can do all things thru Christ who strengthens me... the flip side is that without Him I can do nothing.I live it every day.Thankyouellie
I think also it would be wise to consider the difference between those who are Children of God and those who are still in Sin. Some passages on forgiveness:Matthew 15:1615 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. I notice "from your hearts" in these last verses. I recall a passage from Hebrews referring to a "root of bitterness springing up troubling you and thereby many be defiled." I suppose that 'bitterness' could refer to any number of soul poisoning things- but bitterness against a person is real estate for the enemy to build a stronghold. Let not the sun go down upon your wrath, neither give "place" (topos) to the Devil. When we go to bed with our wrath the enemy takes up some real estate in our lives.
Another thought to consider in this is the 'damage' done by the offense. I have a cousin who was shot through the spine accidentally by a man who was target practicing with a compound bow. It was negligence on the part of the shooter lets say. Now, the shooter says, "will you forgive me?" The victim says YES! Your forgiven. But then the shooter takes it upon themself (though forgiven) to help mend the individual back to health. They stayed in the ER and through the surgery at the hospital. They took him to MANY of his therapy appointments and did all he could to help the man mend. God had to heal my cousin- but the shooter had a role to play also. He could have walked away and said "I'm forgiven!" See ya and wouldn't want to be ya! If he had done that would my cousin have been justified in saying, "wait a minute!, are you not at least going to call an ambulance? I'm bleeding here, please help me! I can't feel my legs! Help me, please I'm begging you!" What had it been if the shooter had walked off and said- "just take the pain man! Deal with it! You forgave me now get over it! Quit talking about it!" The victim ... "But I'm still bleeding! I still am hurt and I need your help!" ... The shooter just walks off and says... "Cast what I did into the sea of forgetfulness! You never forgave me or you would drop it!" The victim cries out... "No, you don't understand I still can't walk. You have gone on- but the injury to me has not healed yet. I need you to help me heal." The shooter just says, "Well, I can't heal you God will have to do that. You need to give it to God and pray more. You need a spiritual backbone about this. You didn't really forgive me or you would leave me alone."The man that actually shot my cousin was with him as much as possible until he could walk again. The man died in a boat fire. What lesson can we learn from what this real life shooter did do and what we should consider about what he could have done? All the shooter was being is 'humane'. He was not a Christian as far as I know. What compelled him to do the right thing? We'll never know- but it was a great testimony as to how to react when you really hurt someone.
That was a good example. I do believe that forgiveness is instant. On our part we instantly forgive. However the emotional part of us sometimes doesn't, and as when Peter asked how many times shall I forgive my brother, Jesus said 70 times 7, it's a process in our minds sometimes and also our wills to forgive, sometimes we forgive once literally and then 70 times 7 in our mind, will and emotions. I do believe that with the application of God's principles He will always give us grace and help as we ask. Bro. Daryl
this a Sara Groves' song called Tornado. I am left wondering who the Tornado was. just another facet...You live your life like a tornado • Destruction follows everywhere you go • And you have no plans to stop or slow oh • I will not let this bitter root grow in me • I will not let you leave that legacy • But it gets so hard when pain is all I see oh • • Every time I find healing you're making a new mess • And I am learning the real meaning of forgiveness • • And I tried to remove myself from your path • But I keep waking up in the aftermath • So I pick up again and say I won't look back oh • And I will not let you leave that legacy • But this constant fight is breaking me oh • Every time I find healing you're making a new mess • And I am learning the real meaning of forgiveness • • And it hurts when you hit at the hearts of the ones I love • When everything you touch is rumble and dust • And it gets so hard to know how to trust • But I will not let that bitter root grow • I will not let it no no • But it gets so hard oh • • Every time I find healing you're making a new mess • And I am learning the real meaning of forgiveness • And I could move and never send you a forwarding address • Or I could learn the real meaning of forgiveness • •
Dearly beloved in Christ, You know the bible says to bare one another's burdens. It's like a stick one would drive along side a tomato plant to help support burden of the branches. Could I share a burden with you that has really wounded my heart? I love people who do ministry of anykind. I'm especially drawn to pastors who have "the right stuff". What is the right stuff? Yes they are men of God. But more, they are outstanding in every way. They are men of character and integrity. They are model husbands and fathers. They are deeply compassionate to all without regard to personal stature (no respector of persons). They follow Christ, and it shows by their example in almost every thing they do. I had a pastor friend once, more a dear brother in Christ at who is like that. It grieves me that I did not even measure up to this man, much less Christ, yet he loved me. We had some intimate fellowship. We've went places together. Oh how I loved to be with him (he drowned along with his son a couple years ago). Our theology had been on the same page right down the line. He even asked me to preach in his absence, an honor that will forever thrill my soul. This man was not lazy. Far from it. He rarely took time for himself, but was continually giving his life and his labor to his family and his church. I loved this man. I'm was thrilled to be known as his friend. This pastor invited one of his pastor friends from out of state to come and conduct some meetings in his church. My pastor friend gave this person a great build up. I couldn't wait to have fellowship with this visitor and hear him preach. He came and was there for 4 or 5 days. He preached 5 messages that were wonderful...good stuff. In his messages he revealed some experiences he had in Africa as a missionary. If you know me, you know that I love missionaries and I cherish their fellowship. The pastor friend of my pastor friend came and went. I went to all his meetings. I introduced myself. Not once did my pastor introduce me to his friend pastor as being his friend. I was not invited to some special things that were going on that other people were invited too. I was completely overlooked as "close" friend. I was wounded deeply. When it was all said and done, I went to my pastor friend and shared with him in love my wound. He assured me that it was not by intent and that he had intended to have me involved in the fellowship. I of course forgave him. Yes our relationship had a dent in it, but I knew time would heal it. I knew this man. He was not the kind that would hurt anyone intentionally, much less his close friends. He apologised to the max, I forgave him of course, even before I spoke to him about it. Now we will move on. Well, .......then the Holy Spirit began to deal with me. He probed my heart with this question. "How many times has Jesus been left out of your fellowship with your friends, Lahry?" Oh agony upon agony. Countless times no doubt. I've been with people I cared about and failed to introduce them to the Holy One I "claim" to love most of all. Oh God! Oh please forgive me. Oh the agony of this is almost more than I can bare. I am a man of unclean lips. I proclaim to some how much I love Jesus and how close we are. But with others, I never mention His name. In my pain of injury from my pastor freind, I was able to see a deeper wound, a wound that breaks my friend Jesus' heart. He laid down His life for me. Too often I treat Him as if I don't know Him at all. I claim to have a "personal relationship" with Christ, but I keep Him at a distance far too often. Oh God! Please forgive me. Broken and spilled out, Lahry
Broken and spilled out, LahryHeb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; ...some things we can only learn this way.
I think that we spend a lot of time on how victims ought to forgive and very little on how victimizers should react to the things they have done. The example I related earlier of my cousin who was shot through the spine on accident just keeps speaking to me. Here was a man who accidentally shot and paralyzed him from the chest down. The shooter followed him every step of the way from the trip to the hospital to the ER and the surgery and weeks in ICU. He took him to appointments afterwards and rehab. Took him to the gym. In Abraham my friend Ron relays a story of a woman who donated a kidney without hesitation to her son. She did not know that people have 2 kidneys so what she 'thought' she was doing was essentially giving her life for her child. Was she doing the Christlike thing here? She was being a mother. When the man followed my cousin to tend to his wounds he was not being a 'Christian' he was being a human being. Sometimes sinners are more spiritual than believers. I think of I Timothy 5:8But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.This is shocking. Is it possible that a person could conduct theirselves in a way that was actually 'worse' than an infidel while simultaneously believing they were 'spiritual'. I believe so. But how could it be that a Christian could do great damage to people and not at least try to pick up the pieces. Many just get their receipt for forgiveness and keep on walking by. It's like they threw some pour soul into the ditch naked and wounded and waited for someone else to pass by and help them out. all many are concerned about is if they were 'forgiven'. And once they hear "yes your forgiven" they believe their responisbility is over. But is it?I think again of my cousin and how this winter his back and legs will hurt terribly bad due to the weather change. The bones will ache. He will need someone to rub his back or legs all over again. The spiritual crowd would tell him to rebuke the devil for reminding him of the pain and claim healing in faith! How insinsitive can you be!? The victim just keeps on getting victimized by the mindset of a callous people. In like manor people who have been emotionally hurt go through seasons in their life where the trauma of what has happened for but a little while comes to the surface and the pain is felt all over again. Maybe it happened 5 years ago- but a change in seasons reminds them of the pain. Like the sore back or legs of a former paralyzed man- they need their legs rubbed again. Again the hyper spiritual would tell them to rebuke the devil and give it to Jesus. How callous! How cavalier an attitude people take towards the pain they cause. A Samaritan man pulls a hurt man from a ditch- but a Christian will wound and smugly walk on as if they were justified in inflicting the pain. Their battle cry? Forgive me and get over it! What about my legs? They still hurt. What about my back- its aching again. For all I know the shooter may have been an infidel, but at least he had the good sense to know what he did and tried to help. In this I see clearly how a Christian can be worse than an infidel and offer up 10 proof texts to justify their behavior. Yet, does not even nature teach you that it is a shame...