Biblical Modesty

When Summer time comes around, as the days get longer and the temperature gets hotter, we all find ourselves wearing less and less clothing to help cope with the changing weather. In regard to this, the issue of modesty often comes into the minds of many-- especially in my church's denomination which is rooted in the Wesleyan-Holiness tradition. Many standards of measurement are often purposed in order to define what a "modest" dress code is, though I believe them ALL to be lacking. Even within your own church, you'll likely get several different answers from different people if you were to ask them what is or is not appropriate attire to wear.First, be assured the Scriptures do teach that we are to dress modestly (1 Peter 3:3-6). In this passage of Scripture, the apostle Peter encourages women to not let their priorities get out of order. He teaches them that they should be more concerned with how brightly they let their inner-man (or in this case, the inner-woman) shine, than if their hair or clothing are the latest in fashion. Give a higher priority to dazzling people with your good works rather than your good looks. Secondly, be assured the Scriptures do not ever once describe what is and is not an acceptable dress code. For examples, never do the Scriptures teach that a woman's dress must come down to at least her finger tips. Never do the Scriptures ever teach that a dress must go down at least to her knees. Never do the Scriptures ever teach that a woman's dress must go down to her ankles! Yet, there are many who are deeply convinced of each of these standards of measurement, never mind you cannot find any of them in the Bible! For that matter, Jesus blasted the Pharisees for how they lengthened the tassels of their garments (Matt 23:5)Well, what then is Biblical modesty? I am firmly convinced through much prayer and study that the spirit of the Scriptures concerning modesty is this: Let God dress you. Such is what we see in Genesis soon after Adam and Eve realize they are naked and are ashamed of their nakedness. God then dressed Adam and Even in animal skins (Genesis 3:21). God taught Adam and Eve how to dress. It is interesting that in dressing them, the Scriptures do not record the dimensions of their garments. We are not told that Eve was given a dress that came down to her ankles, didn't show any cleavage, and fully covered her arms. Modesty is a mindset, not a standard of measurement. When picking out what clothes we wish to wear, we should dress simply to please God. Your mindset should not be, "How much can I show without getting arrested?" Rather, your mindset should be, "Is this pleasing to God?" If your mindset is to dress to please God, and to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit, then it will not matter if you wear a dress to your ankle, knee, or something even shorter. So long as you can wear it and not violate your conscience, you will do well in the sight of God.I've known women who are covered from head to toe, yet have a spirit of seduction about them. Yet, some of the godliest women I've known can wear a two-piece bathing suit and still have a spirit of modesty! If one is still inclined to be contentious about this issue, let us consider the prophet Isaiah. We read in Isaiah 20 how this prophet, whose ministry was deeply rooted in the holiness of God (Isaiah 6), was commanded by God to go about his prophetic ministry for 3 years buck-naked as a sign to Egypt and Cush that they were about to be judged by God, and would go into exile. The prophet Isaiah was as holy as they come, yet walked around commando style for 3 years in front of everybody! Can you imagine if I showed up to church one Sunday to preach in the nude? Isaiah's ministry ought to wreck any of our precious holiness dress codes that we hold so dear to our hearts.However you choose to dress this summer, dress unto the Lord. Don't think of how much you can show, and flaunt what you got, but rather, think of how to dress as to please God. Let it be your OWN conviction, that none can shake you from.

KingJimmythis is an important topic and I am glad you have raised it. I hope you won't think me frivolous if I on the basis of your advice I tell a story...Well, what then is Biblical modesty? I am firmly convinced through much prayer and study that the spirit of the Scriptures concerning modesty is this: Let God dress you.The local minister was looking over the wall of a beautiful Garden and remarked "what a beautiful Garden God and you have created". The old gardener paused for a moment and said "you ought to have seen what it was like when God had it on His own".

Great story Ron :)

On a more personal note, it is rather interesting to be confronted with this issue of modesty. Friday, I was doing some open-air preaching and for the first time ever I felt overwhelminly compelled to speak to the teenage girls that were among those in my street congregation. Some of them were very popular, and apparently for all the wrong reasons. I nearly closed my eyes while preaching, because of what some of the girls were wearing. My heart broke within me as some of these girls made their way through the crowd, and how they greeted some young men in the crowd. They were scantly dressed, and highly suggestive in their actions. One of them I called out by name (as many others had done). I told them I had something from God I needed to tell her, and she said ok, and climbed up on the wishing well next to where I was. I then told her how she didn't need to sell herself out to these guys and settle for second-rate sex. I urged her not to dress for the attention of these boys, but rather, to dress for God's attention. I urged the rest of the girls there to do the same.Then it is interesting what happened this Sunday at Church. One member of the congregation did not like what my girlfriend was wearing, and thought it suggestive. She thought her dress was too short... it came to just above her knees. She promptly let my girlfriend know, which hurt her feelings greatly. My girlfriend is a lovely young woman of God who loves the Lord deeply, and wants nothing more than to please God. I have gone shopping with her countless times, and have personally seen how she selects out what clothing she wears. She has a definite personal standard by which she decides to buy. If she thinks something might be pushing the limits, she won't even let me see her in it after she tries it on. Likewise, when we went to a lakefront beach recently, she was extremely picky about what type of bathing suit she would wear (she finally decided on a one-piece suit). Her aim was constantly to please God, and represent Him as a minister of the gospel, as well as to not be a snare to men. This one sister in church probably thinks my girlfriend as not being modest, because her dress didn't come down to a length that satisfied her, because of unbiblical commandments of men being treated like it was a thus saith the Lord, yet I know without a doubt that my girlfriend to be one of integrity, and a modest spirit. Just some further thoughts...

Indeed dorcas, we must also "love our neighbor" in this regard, and do our best to respect various customs and others personal convictions. At the same time though, you cannot please everyone, as some people are offended by just about anything these days. Various contexts will, in our love for God, require we dress in a different manner to suit that context.

Further thoughts... I was talking to my pastor about this recently, and we came to agree, in the case of women (whom issues of modesty are mostly geared towards these days), that a woman should dress to chiefly please God, and then secondly her husband. In the case of younger women (e.g. my girlfriend), she should chiefly dress to please God, then her parents, and when she and I go out somewhere, she can dress to please me.

We live in age dominated by images from stuff on the highstreet it is not suprising that people only wear what is available as in shops ! People can only buy modest clothing if it is avalable I want to be pure in clothing it has been hot recently and I have been wearing shorts and as I have been working on a building site moving block and soil and accoutriments!! I found that when I walked into church I found that my shorts were slipping down god help me !! I am such a fool god help me someone pointed out it may affect someone else in that congregation if they are female and may be really unpleasent!! i am suffering with wrong images, I hate to see images that do not please god or man you can just walk up the highstreet, i do not know what you call it in the states and be flooded with pictures of people in clothes sometimes very little!! Maybe these people suddenlt got the idea to wear clothes that were too small for them or didnt fit right!! They must have got the idea from somewhere!! I am going to the beach with my family this is the height of this kind of clothing!! I want Jesus to keep me pure or keep me away from the beach !! I just want to be like him!! I want god to purify my mind and my heart and I pray that you pray that for yourselves and each other!! In Church we have been preaching about ovecomeing the lustful and carnal desires by fasting and it is working it amazing when you are thinking about other things these thoughts do not even pop into your head !! I have been online and I get horrified when you go on a link and you find an image say a bookshop!! and you are looking for christian books and an image pops up!! Please pray for me that god will clense my mind!! Back to the subject are soceity is filled with images of people and it is not that often to be polluted by what we see and hear twenty four seven!! If what we see affects the way we dress then our clothing is designated either by a heavenly garbe or an earthly one!! What I mean by this is that we are either influenced by biblical thinking or things around biblical thinking or another source!! We chose what we wear and who makes us deside what wear!! We need Jesus to deside what we wear!! To leave you on a lovely note one day we will be clothed in our righteous and all the colouring of this world would seem dim, god looks on the heart not on the outer shell!! We need him to wash our insides out so we can dress like he does!!in the blood of the lamb!! In coats of many colours!! I need Jesus lots of love DOmDanny Kensington has a sermon on biblical modesty!!

Jimmy, Excellent post! Modesty indeed starts with the heart. In my own walk with the Lord, as I've grown and matured, I have found that i naturally have given my own "wants" and "rights" to wear what I feel like wearing, but instead consider others. Yes, the Lord does lead us if we are sensative and listening. And no, not everyone will agree with us on everything we wear.I have come along way from wearing skimpy workout outfits to the gym just because i thought i'd worked so hard, I might as well show all my hard work. Now i see how prideful that was and how it probably caused others to stumble. I was only thinking of myself.I am not one to be legalistic about hemlines (i haven't worn a skirt or dress in over a year i don't think) and I wear jeans and capris everywhere- yes even to church.To me modesty is also humility. I also believe that just because some people have enough money to buy whatever clothes they want-that they don't have to dress flashy and wear the most expensive outfits. To me, this creates a barrier between me and those who may feel intimidated by my dress. That is why I choose to dress casually almost 99% of the time. Casual but modest.The Lord has led me to my own conclusion on clothes, do not wear things that would cause people to feel they couldn't approach me and feel at ease with me (especially women). Now this may not be an area of concern for someone else. It is just a point of interest which the lord has shown to me for whatever purposes He has. In the past, some women have thought it was intimadating approaching me(i honestly cannot see why myself-and this is no joke, maybe because i was a personal trainer?), so I have gone to lengths to resolve that as much as i can.C.J. Mahaney from Sov. Grace Ministries has a good article on the soul of modesty and how it relates to humility. http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/sgo/v20no4/modesty.html"Any biblical discussion of modesty begins with the heart, not the hemline. What fruit of the Spirit is seen in the modestly dressed woman? Self-control: an intentional restraint and moderation for the purpose of purity.Modesty, therefore, is simply humility expressed in dress. The humble Christian woman who understands this passage will have a wardrobe that expresses self-control, moderation, and restraint. What she wears will demonstrate that she lives with a settled resistance to the ceaseless pull of the world. She will dress to show the grace and beauty of womanhood and to reveal a humble heart — not to call attention to herself, flaunt her beauty, impress her peers, or allure men sexually." C.J. MahaneyIn Him, Chanin

I am not one to be legalistic about hemlines (i haven't worn a skirt or dress in over a year i don't think) and I wear jeans and capris everywhere- yes even to church.Good for you. The only time I ever dress up for church is on Sunday services or at services I'm scheduled to preach in front of the entire congregation. I only put on dress pants and a shirt because my mom nearly thinks it a sin for me to go to church otherwise. I only wear a suit in the pulpit because there are some who would refuse to listen to me were I dressed in anything less (and besides, I make it look good, :-) ). However, come Wednesday nights when I teach the Singles & Collge group, I come in jeans and a t-shirt.When I went to the beach recently with my girlfriend, I did not take my shirt off, even when I went out into the water. Granted, part of my reasoning for not doing such has to do with 1) I don't want to blind anybody due to Casper white skin 2) I'm not exactly Van Deasel, and thus a little shy 3) I once received a really bad burn years ago and have no desire to do it again and 4) That's my way of being modest. I'm not so much ashamed of the way I look, and in this day of age, there really aren't that many people on a beach with anything remotely resembling what you see in movies as far as beach-bod's. But, I do wish to be modest- tiz just my own conviction, though I hold no fault whatsoever to others guys who take their shirts off at the beach. I do not even feel like I would be sinning against the Lord even should I take my shirt off at the beach. It's just something I don't do. And should my girlfriend and I get married one day, I figure that is a something extra to for my wife to see one day.

Here are a few quotes I found on this issue: Mary Quant, known as the mother of the mini-skirt has been quoted in Newsweek as having said, "mini-cloths are symbolic of those girls who didn't want to wait until dark to seduce a man.Designer Leo Narducci says that the woman who wears revealing clothes is one who is sure of herself, who thinks of sex more openly...she is not concerned about nudity. She has a body and she knows it!! Enuf said...ginnyrose

Just because something was designed with a certain intent in mind, doesn't mean it has to be used by others with that intent. For example, a believer is free to buy meat from the market that was offered to idols. For it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

KJ, I beg to differ with you! meats do not harm the body, of this the scripture is clear. But what you see with your eyes can lead you to sin. Jesus teaches us about the sin of lust and that comes through sight. KJ, I am a female, obviously, and women do dress immodestly to be noticed by men. They like the looks it attracts. Christian women are commanded to be modest; it is not optional. A Christian woman will not want to be identified with the devil's crowd!! and this is what you get when you dress like that crowd. Are you saying you like to see women dressed like harlots? ginnyrose

Ginny,Please reread all I said and think about it some more. Modesty is a mindset, not a dress code. Exactly what does a harlot look like? What do you do with the Scripture that teaches Isaiah walked around buck-naked 3 years at the command of God? Was that not a violation of modesty?

I heard a preacher say one time that he attended upon an emergency call to a hospital to visit a lady out in the country. It was a small community and the Dr. was on call. He was also a farmer. When the preacher arrived at the hospital about the same time as the Dr. The Dr. was dressed in cowboy boots, overhalls, a cowboy hat and the like; all clothes that he had been wearing while out on the farm. He walked in to attend upon the lady. He started the examination. The lady became uncomfortable and restless acting. Finally she spoke up and said- "Dr. if you would not mind would you go into your office and put on your white Dr.'s smock?" There was nothing wrong with the way he was dressed? Yet there was something unsettling about it all for the woman. The Dr. did not look the part. Putting on that white outfit never aided a single bit in treating this woman. He could have well done the job without it. Yet, as far as the woman was concerned he was not going to do anything to her until he looked like a Dr.As believers who profess Christ we need to use caution when we are in the world. Often we think that if we look just like the world we may well win them to Christ. Is that so? I once asked one of my youth if they were to "go under the knife" and looked up as they were being wheeled into the operating room what they would think if the Dr. had a mohawk and studs all in his face? Uhh Uhh well, um, I might be a little concerned. Really? Why is that? Uh, well, em, (clear the throat), I just would. Are you JUDGING him! Uh, no! Well then whats the problem? "I get your point."Does it really matter? Is it more than a heart issue? The guy wearing the cowboy hat was a good Dr.! The man wheeling the teen into the operating room may well have been the best and most qualified surgeon in the world. What was the issue in both cases? People have an expectation of what the part 'ought' to look like. And no excuses can change the unsettled feeling that rises up in the conscience of a person who sees a Christian not dressing the part. The believer may not mean anything by it. But when they got dressed they intended that day to send some sort of message. What part or 'role' were they dressing for? if picked out of a crowd- what would the average person perceive?God Bless,-Robert

I'm enjoying reading the topic.KingJimmy, I agree with you on keeping more clothes on at the beach than most - good expression of modesty.Early you said that even a woman in a 2-piece bathing suit could be modest. I would have a hard time listening to a lady witness to me if she were in a 2-piece bathing suit. As far as the Isaiah passage goes, in context Isaiah was picturing the judgment of God upon Egypt. He was commanded by God to walk naked and barefoot. He said they would be carried away naked into Ethiopia to their shame.Anybody have more Bible verses on the subject and personal thoughts that we can discuss?Kendal

Indeed Robert, we should consider "looking the part" so to say. For example, it is generally expected by heathen that it is a sin for Christians to drink alcohol in any amount, thus, if they saw a Christian drinking, they'd probably think, "hypocrite." However, I'm not so sure how much we should get into this "looking the part" business. Isaiah walking around naked hardly looked the part. Hosea taking a wife of harlotry hardly looked the part. John the Baptist with his odd behavior hardly looked the part. Then when it was all said and done, Christ eating with sinners, tax collectors, and riding into Jerusalem on a beast of burden hardly looked the part either. Perhaps he should have at least ridden in on a nice but modest horse, more fitting for a king? These men hardly looked the part, and were not quite what was expected. Reminds me of:Luke 7:31 To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? 32 "They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, `We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.' 33 "For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, `He has a demon!' 34 "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, `Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, F180 a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' 35 "Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children."Just some thoughts...

Early you said that even a woman in a 2-piece bathing suit could be modest. I would have a hard time listening to a lady witness to me if she were in a 2-piece bathing suit.How much more difficult do you think it would've been to be witnessed to by Isaiah in the buff?

Not trying to be contentious, and still enjoying the conversation, but:If we let a two-piece bathing suit fall under the umbrella of Biblical modesty, how would we define immodesty?KingJimmy,I appreciate your openness and I'm pretty sure I understand your background in the Wesleyan Holiness tradition. Given that, I think we have common experiences, I'm wanting to learn and refine my own beliefs.Thanks,Kendal

If we let a two-piece bathing suit fall under the umbrella of Biblical modesty, how would we define immodesty?My point is that you cannot define immodesty simply by how much something reveals, or how tight it is. This is where I have to respectfully disagree with those who come from the same tradition as I. If you are going to try to determine what is immodest by how much skin something reveals, then you are going to run into a big flat wall when you deal with Isaiah 20, where Isaiah was commanded by God preach nude for 3 years. His preaching in the nude wrecks every definition of modesty and holiness I've seen out of my own tradition- yet we can be sure, there was probably no prophet in the Old Testament besides Moses who understood the holiness of God so well, and walked in that. Modesty is a spirit, a mindset, a manner of life, a gift from God, a state of being. A modest person seeks to please God in their dress. An immodest person is always trying to draw attention to their body. There are people who are covered with clothes from head to toe, without a stitch of makeup on, yet have an immodest seductive spirit about them. The immodest person goes about trying to lure people in a sexual manner- it doesn't matter what they have on, or don't have on. Their aim is not to please God by any means. We have to get beyond this mindset that defines modesty by what clothing is where, and how much of it. It's not a matter of quantity. If you are thinking about modesty in a matter of quantitative terms, I believe you are thinking wrong. If it were a matter of such, then I think the Scriptures would give instruction on what proper clothing is in that regard. The only passages I have come across that even remotely suggests lengths for various garments has to do with priestly garments in temple rituals. But, I find it horriably interesting that this sort of thing is entirely lacking in the Scriptures... yet in our tradition, such has been a major deal, and many people have been labeled to be living in sin because they had a certain style of clothing on, yet no Scriptural evidence is forthcoming to suggest such people were.

Modesty is a mindset, not a dress code. I agree that modesty is a mindset, but that mindset affects your dress code.

I agree with you that modesty is more than how much clothes you have on, a person should definitely have a spirit of modesty. I don't think we can completely go with your definition by saying that it is just a mindset, though. Let's go to the scriptures.1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; Here Paul mentions "modest apparel," which does two things. One, it says modesty does have to do with apparel or clothing. Two, it implies that if there is such as modest apparel, then there must be immodest apparel.Surely we can at least agree here?Kendal

KJ, You make some very good points about the scripture being silent as pertains to how long a garment should be to be deemed modest. But to take Isaiah as an example to justify scantily clothes begs the question even more, IMHO. In the beginning in the garden, Adam & Eve designed their own clothes which the Bible describes as 'aprons' - bottoms covered, tops uncovered. But man designed clothing was inadeqate in God's eyes so he made them 'coats' of fur. Bible scholars tell me the 'coats' of the Bible were either knee or ankle length, depending on whether the garment was worn for dressy occasions or for work. In 1 Timothy 2:9, (NASB): Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments..." Perhaps if we really are serious about this we should study history to see how the early church defined modesty? It is true that wearing long garments will not guarantee a modest mindset. I have seen many women wear long skirts with slits up to forbidden territory. These slits act like teasers to make your eye wander to forbidden territory for lusting. My grandparents fornicated before they married - almost a hundred years ago - and she wore long skirts. Yes, immodesty begins in the mind and is manifested in the style of clothing one wears. Scripture tells us we are the temple of the Holy Spirt, which means the Holy Spirit dwells within our physical body. That being the case, one should dress this body so one will not be tempted to physicallly lust after it. Since we belong to God, no godly woman will want to pattern her clothing styles after the world's fashions whose purpose is to flaunt their bodies for lustful purposes and to sell their product. Marketing success depends on people being dissatisfied and they exploit this to their advantage. About Isaiah's ministry in the nude: if one reads the scripture carefully, we will notice this was an unique situation. I would venture to say, his audience would primarily been males because this would likely have been a sure turnoff for most women back then. Many females are not attracted to a naked male body like males are to females. We tend to be repulsed by it although this appears to be changing. If a male wants to impress me favorably, he better be dressed decent. Now if he is a painter by trade and just got done painting, I expect him to look the part, however, I also expect he will go home, shower and put on clean clothes as soon as time allows him to. And yes, I also have had a physician who is an avid hunter and would come to the office dressed to go to the field. But he was dressed. If he would have come in dressed ready to go dive in some swimming hole, I would have left. I would have gotten the message he wants to have sex...Dress reveals to others what is in our heart. This is the bottom line. So if you do not want to be perceived as a harlot, then by no means dress like one. But if you dress like one, one can only assume that is what is in the heart. "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." And there are more ways to speak then with the mouth: that is body language. Modest clothing with an immodest wiggle is repulsive and your clothing only makes it worse, IMHO. Another question: why should Christians take their cues from ungodly persons on how we should dress? Would it not be safer to take it from the church? You talk are about how flawed this is, but is the world not flawed in every sense of the word? The world is dominated by rebellion to God, is at war with Him through people and is working 24/7 to destroy God's highest creation. In my experience, the Holy Spirit has led me to how I should NOT dress. If He does this to me, I expect he will do it to others and we are called to faith which means we are to be obedient to what he is telling us to do. Interesting discussion...what do you say?ginnyrose

I agree that modesty is a mindset, but that mindset affects your dress code.Amen.

Here Paul mentions "modest apparel," which does two things. One, it says modesty does have to do with apparel or clothing. Two, it implies that if there is such as modest apparel, then there must be immodest apparelI have no problem with this at all. I fully agree with it.

Bible scholars tell me the 'coats' of the Bible were either knee or ankle length, depending on whether the garment was worn for dressy occasions or for work.Indeed, that is my understanding as well. It is my understanding that in the ancient world most people generally dressed in robes, both men and women alike. Though sometimes they would "gird up their loins" to run (pulling up their robes up their legs so as to enable running). Generally, most people only had a couple changes of clothes at best (thus, lots of OT laws about taking garments as a surity), and it would seem they wore these same garments in all seasons. It seems the average Joe in ancient society looked at clothing in a much more practical/functional way. Scripture tells us we are the temple of the Holy Spirt, which means the Holy Spirit dwells within our physical body. That being the case, one should dress this body so one will not be tempted to physicallly lust after it. Since we belong to God, no godly woman will want to pattern her clothing styles after the world's fashions whose purpose is to flaunt their bodies for lustful purposes and to sell their product.I agree. About Isaiah's ministry in the nude: if one reads the scripture carefully, we will notice this was an unique situation. I would venture to say, his audience would primarily been males because this would likely have been a sure turnoff for most women back then.Indeed, no doubt a unique situation. Though not entirely unique, as Isaiah's contemporary Micah did the same (Micah 1:8). What is unique to Isaiah is that Isaiah got a direct commandment, whereas Micah seems to have felt simply compelled as if he had no other choice, as if it were the logical thing for him to do given the situation.I'm sure it was a major turnoff to most men for that matter. It probably was totally abhorant to everybody he came into contact with, save for perhaps the small group of disciples that sat under Isaiah's ministry. Kinda echo's the famous passage from Isaiah 6:10:Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed.No doubt Isaiah walking around buck naked clearly delivered the message, and everybody clearly understood it. But the message was without a doubt extremely offensive to them, and it would seem God designed it to be deliberately so, that a message would ring so clearly, yet still they would not return to God and be healed. Many females are not attracted to a naked male body like males are to females. We tend to be repulsed by it although this appears to be changing.So I've heard. Men are definitely more visually oriented than women, but then again, God probably had to design it that way, cuz frankly, I think us guys aren't that great looking as it is. Women definitely look much better :) I would have gotten the message he wants to have sex...Which is a point I thought we'd probably come to and hoped it would, as it seems it's be slowly but surely coming. I believe a lot of issues of modesty falls under to some degree what is socially acceptable under certain contexts. And if it is indeed culturally defined to some degree, and as well as contextually, then it must be further seen to be something that is a bit flexible (but perhaps we could just understand this under the already discussed 'not offending' others). For example, how a prostitute dresses was talked about earlier in the thread. In our society, we tend to be able to point out prostitutes as women who are dressing in very tight, flashy, revealing clothing. Yet, we read in Genesis 38:15 that Judah identified Tamar as a prostitute not by how little she wore, but rather, it was her additional clothing that gave her away as such (a veil over her face at that!) So, two different societies, and two different extreme's of the spectrum in dress for identifying prostitutes. Dress reveals to others what is in our heart. This is the bottom line.Agreed. So if you do not want to be perceived as a harlot, then by no means dress like one. But if you dress like one, one can only assume that is what is in the heart.To a degree. In the youth ministry at my last church, there was a young girl, about 12 years old who one day showed up to our youth group in what many girls there even taunted her for as being dressed like a "hoochie," which deeply hurt her feelings. I was not exactly thrilled about the dress she was wearing either, as it was extremely short. Yet, I knew this girls heart about the Lord, and how she loved him dearly, as I've seen very few people her age ever with such a love, and I also knew the very difficult family background she was coming out of. I don't think she was trying to be immodest by any means, and partially was dressing the way she did out of ignorance, and partially out of that is all she had to wear. Another question: why should Christians take their cues from ungodly persons on how we should dress? Would it not be safer to take it from the church?Indeed, it would be nice if such would happen. I long for a day when older men and women in the faith end up playing a large part of the discipleship process, especially for the younger generation. I highly enjoyed my 2 years at a local small Bible college, where many of the students were men of God in their 40's and 50's, that gave me a ton of meat to chew on. In my experience, the Holy Spirit has led me to how I should NOT dress. If He does this to me, I expect he will do it to others and we are called to faith which means we are to be obedient to what he is telling us to doAmen.

Here is a personal confession of mine concerning the style I prefer my sisters in Christ to dress in for modest apparel:At the beach, I would personally prefer they only wear a one piece bathing suit.To me, I'm not picky if a woman is wearing pants, shorts, or a dress. So long as the shorts are not daizy dukes. Also, I've noticed a trend lately that some women wear white pants of some sort that is so thin that you can almost see through it, I'd prefer they stay away from this.If the woman will wear a dress/skirt, I'd strongly prefer it not be a mini-skirt, though, it does not have to be something that comes down to their knees either.Regarding shirts/sweaters and the like, I don't mind if it is sleeveless, and even if it shows their shoulders. I have no problem with tanktop's. My biggest care is I'd prefer women stay away from showing their cleveage, though maybe perhaps just a little bit is acceptable. Also, I think they should stay away from shirts that are so thin to where you can makeout the design of their bra.Regarding makeup, I don't have a problem with women wearing it, I'd just prefer they not cake it on. Personally, I think the cake on style of makeup is tacky as it is. I think a little makeup , with a rather natural look to it is best. I prefer most women have hair that comes down at least half way down their neck. I think it is very nice if a woman has hair that comes down to at least a little below her shoulders, but I don't much care for women who have hair coming down to their lower back (I once saw a woman who had hair down to her knees). However, there are a few women I think that perhaps a very short hair style is very nice on (e.g. think Haley Berry (sp?)). I'm not very picky when it comes to hair though. I also don't mind if women wear jewlery, so long as you don't have to wonder if they need a Loomis Fargo security truck to haul them around in. Just thought I'd state my personal preferences. Depending on various contexts, I don't mind if there is some variation to this.

KJ, you are very brave to expose your personal convictions! and I applaud you for it even though I disagree with you. Having said that, let me assure you that as you walk in faith, being obedient to the Holy Spirit as he leads you, you will find yourself changing. It usualy happens in small degrees but not always. Occasionally, it goes by leaps and bounds. A basic point is that as we serve the LORD wherever he places us, we do not want that message to be distracted by immodesty. If a person wears suggestive clothing, the mind of the person being served will be distracted and he/she cannot hear what is being said. If we disagree on the "how tos" perhaps we need to focus on how we can best keep the interest of the person we are ministrying to. For example, if you wanted to share spiritual things with an Amish person, you better not wear the color red because he/she will likely be offended by it. So while you may not be offended, they might and this is an important aspect of being sensitive to others weakness, convictions in serving our LORD. On the issue of dress/modesty, if you study the Bible, comparing scripture with scripture, OT and NT, asking for Holy spirit guidance it will be the most enlightning thing that can happen. When you are being willing to be led you will not need to ask people for approval although you will be teachable.This has been my experience in life. God has not failed me yet, but I have Him, sad to say.I suppose we are on the same page, right?ginnyrose

It seems to me that modesty may have more to do with the culture you are in than anything. Many of the men of God from the past had hair length that would be considered immodest 50 years ago. John Wesley, who many holiness people think a lot of, had hair that was very long. Charles Finney, who many holiness people love, probably wouldn't be asked to preach in their churches today because of the way he looked.Possibly what King Jimmy is trying to say is that self-righteousness of the length of dress or hair etc. doesn't go very far with God. It was the Publican who was justified and not the Pharisee. God looks at the heart and not the outward appearance of man. 1 Samuel 16:7In the Sermon Index there is a very good sermon by Carter Conlon called {Ceasar or God}. The image of God is a lot more than dress or looks.In Christ,GaryE

King Jimmy, I want to extend a big THANK YOU for expressing your thoughts about women’s dress. I wish I could spread your words all over. We women need to hear such words from men who respect us as women and have the courage to share so specifically. I remember in highschool, when jeans were first allowed, I wore a pair to school. A male classmate said to me, “That’s ugly.” Because I valued his deep respect for me, I listened to him, and never wore them again. (He was right: they were unfeminine.) I valued his rather blunt words even more than the words of some of my religious superiors who, even quoting lots of scriptures, still made me feel like an object of shame.Here is another personal story from my early twenties: Within the first week after joining a mission’s organization, I was approached about my “immodest dress”. My shoulders were showing, and apparently that was against the rulebook. (It wasn’t, I later found out) The way that I was handled was so humiliating that for many years after that I could not go in public with exposed shoulders, because doing so made me feel promiscuous. Finally, the Lord did a miraculous work in me to heal me of that hang-up. I can now have uncovered shoulders without being distracted by those condescending feelings. Thank you also, KJ, for your comments about Biblical teaching on the subject. You encourage a God-consciousness, and leave room for personal responsibility and accountability to God. You acknowledge a woman’s ability to hear from the Spirit herself. That again is an expression of respect. I suspect that women would be far more inclined to show respect to men through how they dress if they believed that they were respected. _______________________ Regarding King David’s naked dancing: It is extremely difficult to wrap our legalistic mindsets around that incident. Surely, David’s wife, Michal had a right to be indignant about her crazy-behaving husband. Surely God was being unreasonable to curse her with a barren womb as a result of her feelings. But then, centuries later, wasn’t God being totally barbaric in allowing his precious Son to hang naked from the cross – fully exposed in shame? __________________________The overall thoughts on this topic of apparel seem to be: The Spirit must always rise above mere laws and words.

I appreciate this forum, I come from a UPC church, the first one that i was in frowned upon women even using, the vaseline tube for chapstick.....when we moved we went to another UPC church it was more liberal, it was ok to wear dress slaks and even cut your hair and to wear modest make-up, but i remeber the shame of a preacher preaching that it was a sin to wear skirts with slits and i was guilty my dress was long but it had a slit from my knees down.I just knew everyone was looking at me I remember how i shut down, i became so quite that noone knew me, fear of preaching against anything that i may accedently have done, consumed me that i had forgotten the grace and mercy of who our lord is. We had moved again and i go to the little church by my new home(not UPC) which is where i go now but it took years of overcoming guilt. even now as i drive by my old church i get guilt pangs and it has been over 10 years.....So many sermons preached on dress codes.......I almost didnt take the time to look in here to read i'am glad that i didMichelle

Ginny,In general, the same page :)

It seems to me that modesty may have more to do with the culture you are in than anything. Many of the men of God from the past had hair length that would be considered immodest 50 years ago. John Wesley, who many holiness people think a lot of, had hair that was very long. Charles Finney, who many holiness people love, probably wouldn't be asked to preach in their churches today because of the way he looked.Indeed, I believe modesty is to a degree culturally defined. Which is why it is so hard to make sweeping generalizations on what is and is not acceptable dress. For example, we'd probably all agree that it is unacceptable for a man to wear a dress, but, would it be unacceptable for a man to wear a kilt? I would likely offend many in Sctoland at some time if in certain situations, I didn't wear one. Possibly what King Jimmy is trying to say is that self-righteousness of the length of dress or hair etc. doesn't go very far with God.Indeed.I wonder, if there are any sermons on SI dedicated to issues of modesty? It would be interesting to perhaps hear.

King Jimmy, I want to extend a big THANK YOU for expressing your thoughts about women’s dress. I wish I could spread your words all over. We women need to hear such words from men who respect us as women and have the courage to share so specifically.Feel free to copy whichever you wish and distribute it for women's Bible study groups and the like :) The way that I was handled was so humiliating that for many years after that I could not go in public with exposed shoulders, because doing so made me feel promiscuous.Indeed, and sadly, when it comes to issues of modesty, others handle those they to believe to be immodestly dress in such a hard way. Jesus said the weightier matters of the law to be justice, mercy, and faithfulness. I don't see "dress code" under that description. Yet, many sit there all self-righteous that they are holy because they wear their clothing in a certain way, yet they treat with cruelity those they believe to be in error. Jesus said those who do not show mercy shall not receive mercy. The unmerciful shall receive greater condemnations on the day of judgment.The overall thoughts on this topic of apparel seem to be: The Spirit must always rise above mere laws and words. Amen :)

Michelle,It is interesting the perspective you offer. I attend a Church of God (Cleveland, TN) which has traditionally been one of the most strict Pentecostal denominations in regard to dress code. I know some people in the denomination who are attracted to the UPC simply because many of the members look the part of being "holy" despite a large doctrinal gulf between the two regarding the important doctrine of the Trinity. Indeed, even in my own local church, we have lost a few members over the years because of issues regarding dress. It is interesting that many feel issues regarding personal modesty to be more important than the nature of the Godhead. One Church of God minister has told me that the Church of God has lost many of their old-school members in recent years to the UPC simply because of issues regarding dress.

I need prayer for images which are impure as I am in portugal and ahev been out with my parents! For any unclean images!!

Jimmy -I love you, and love MOST of your articles.But on this one, I have one question/comment for you?Question:Is there a difference between a two piece bathing suit and a bra and panties? No, there isn't, not at all. Now, would it be appropriate for a woman from our fellowship, regardless of how holy she is, to walk around our Bible study in her underwear? Would that be a stumbling block for others? Do you think that at least one man would look lustfully? If so, then she needs to refrain.

I wonder, if there are any sermons on SI dedicated to issues of modesty? It would be interesting to perhaps hear.Here's a sermon by John Wesley:On DressIn Christ,-Eli

Question:Is there a difference between a two piece bathing suit and a bra and panties?No, there isn't, not at all. Now, would it be appropriate for a woman from our fellowship, regardless of how holy she is, to walk around our Bible study in her underwear? Would that be a stumbling block for others? Do you think that at least one man would look lustfully? If so, then she needs to refrain.If the Lord allowed her to, it would be fine... though I would never even remotely advise she do such, and if she did, I would probably go get her some clothing from walmart real quick. But, I believe this once again falls under the area of Isaiah and Micah going around Jerusalem preaching in the buff. And as far as a difference between bra/panties & 2 piece bathing suit, I can't say I'm an expert on either. But from my experience in retail (I work at Target), I've noticed that it seems bra's & panties tend to be thinner, and perhaps allow you to see through them a bit. But all that depends on design, fabric, etc. It's a fine line difference.

Quote:"Is there a difference between a two piece bathing suit and a bra and panties? No, there isn't, not at all."I know this question wasn't directed towards me, and I haven't even been follwing this whole thread, but I would like to offer another perspective on this specific statement. I think there is a big difference. One is a partly naked woman, the other is a clothed woman. While her clothing (swimsuit) may seem overly revealing to some, she is still clothed. Sure, both could potentially be a stumbling block, but it does seem there is a big difference.

I heard a great commentary on this subject by the author of the book "For Women Only." Many things were opened to me that explain from Scripture what modern psychology is still trying to figure out.Anyway, the author talked about the woman's dresscode in a two fold manner. ONE: men-we have to understand that many woman dress the way they do because they think they look "cute." We need to realize that they need our prayers and witness. So do not judge them as a harlot at first thought, but realize they might not necessarily be trying to intentionally tempt us. TWO: for the women-they need to grow up (author's language, not mine) and realize that they should do nothing that makes their brother stumble. Men don't think they are "cute," but rather, instinctively see a woman as nude when she is wearing little, or tight-fitting clothing. She explained how men remember attractive women in a mental Roladex, whether they want to or not. And these images may attack them at any given time during the day. So she said to the women (paraphrasing), 'imagine what a mental minefield this society is for a Christian man.' She then basically asked if the women listening were going to help with the problem or be part of the problem.