The trouble started when I tried to do good - Derek Prince

At that point I acknowledged that I needed to be a lot better than I was. So I decided that confirmation would be my turning point, and from then on I would become a really good person.

It was only when I decided to be good, however, that I discovered how bad I really was! Quite honestly, the harder I tried to be good, the quicker I got bad! After about six months I just gave it up. At the time, I had no idea that my problem was explained in the seventh chapter of Romans, and unfortunately there was no one there to tell me. But, what Paul states here was exactly my experience. "For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.” It was the Law that made me conscious of the fact that I hated my sin. The Law pointed out what I should be doing. It said, "Do it." I said, "All right, I’ll do it. Watch me." And, that is when the trouble started!

Wow Vern. At first I was thinking you were actually trying to paraphrase Romans 7, and I though, "Man you nailed it!" But it is amazing that you realized that Paul's experience of trying to be good by the efforts of his own flesh was what you experienced. I am just thankful for Romans 6 and Romans 8. When we die and Christ lives through us we stop walking after the flesh and rise in the power of the Spirit of God to have victory over sin and the flesh. Praise God!

Hi Vern,

You left us hanging here. So we know what Romans 7 says, and trying to keep the law and do good in our own strength just leads to more failure and we finally give up, but what is the answer to all this? How do we overcome and get the victory?

I did not write that statement in the original post but I like many others experienced much defeat and failure in the attempt to do good. Yes the harder I tried to do good the worse it became.

What is the answer? How do we overcome and get victory?

Matt. 19:26, "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

God Himself solved this problem for us - When Christ died we died with Him. When He was buried, we were buried with Him. When He arose, We were raised with Him. There is no independent "I". We are NOW infused with His LIFE. He abides in us and we abide in Him!!

The law could never give life but Christ's Life within us fulfills and satisfies all the law.

Gal 2:20, "I AM crucified with Christ. (this is a complete and total death of me that can never be uncrucified or resurrected again) Yet here I am, still alive, only it's not me, it is Christ (living and abiding within me this very second). And the life I continue living in this body of flesh, flesh of His flesh, I live entirely by the faith of the Son of God who loves me ( a never ending and continuous unfolding of His love and Life within me) and who fills my heart full with all that He is." Galatians 2:20 & Ephesians 5:30-31

Gal 2:20, "I have been put to death on the cross with Christ; still I am living; no longer I, but Christ is living in me; and that life which I now am living in the flesh I am living by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who in love for me, gave himself up for me." BBE

Many belivers act like Cain because they attempt to connect with God by their own labor, a relationship based on "hear and obey." They believe that they should rule over sin and subdue it but living by these words IS the cause of sin in the human.

When a person attempts to relate with God on the basis of not sinning by the knowledge of what God expects, that belief results ONLY in sin and death. "Not sinning" causes sin; it causes both good and evil, both of which are sin. Doing good is as sinful as doing evil, oftentimes more sinful, for the one "doing good" is building his or her own self-righteousness, his or her own claim on God - that is, covenant - because I did, then You must.

The fear of sin causes sin, drawing sin out of self and others. The New Covenant has nothing to do with sin or no sin. Sin in no way "required" Jesus' passage through the atonement, although that passage is redemption; Covenant always did. And that Covenant is the Heart of God.

Any Christian who approaches God on the basis of sin/no sin, even using Jesus as the crucifix inside of that mix, "I must rule over sin - and You must help me," is living by the Old Covenant. Jesus carries them by the New and even relates with them as He is able by the New, but they do not know it. This includes all who teach any form of "cleaning up the outer man" or "getting rid of the old skin." Their backs are turned against Christ; thus they are doing the opposite of what they say. "Getting rid of sin" serves only to increase sin.

We walk in a totally different Covenant Bond by which we walk together in pure and perfect relationship with the Father. Our Bond with Father is absolute, it is complete and it is utterly pure and holy without shadow of any kind, ever. It matters not what we feel like. The Father is in us and we see that our Bond with Him, utterly bound together in perfect Covenant union, Father and me, that Bond remains perfect and complete. And that Covenant Bond alone causes sin to vanish from our experience. The New Covenant is the actual Person of Christ who is alive right now within us.

Do you see how all of Jesus' statements concerning Gehanna, fire and sulfur, are referring directly to the two covenants?

Here is Gehenna (signifying the curse): "I must rule over sin - and You must help me."

The only thing that can result from this covenant for the human is fire and brimstone.

And when sin succeeds in not sinning, what does it become? Sin not sinning is called self-righteousness, the filthiest perversion of iniquity in the universe. Sin not sinning is the greatest sin of all. That is why those who try must lie by the very nature of their disobedience.

They close the door to Christ, and then, with their backs to Christ, they turn to face sin to defeat it. Only they remain in rioting and drunkenness, trying not to riot or get drunk so that someday they can enter into Christ. They remain in sexual immorality and lewdness, trying not to be sexually immoral or to be lewd so that someday they can enter into Christ. They remain in strife and envying trying not to strive and envy so that someday they can enter into Christ.

The problem with sin is not sin itself - except that which steals from another person what God gave to them. The problem is disconnection from God. The word is harmatia, which means missing the target in an arrow shooting contest. But there is another word that means hitting the bulls eye. That word is used in Hebrews, but badly translated by the Calvinist translators. The wording should actually say that Jesus has become our hitting of the target. In other words the sin of "sin" is using the "sin" to drive God far away from ourselves. But when we know that Jesus is our continuous hitting of the target, we place any action that might or might not be "sin," into Him, into His empty grave, and we continue walk as one person together with our Father without hindrance.

We sin before we try to do good because the thought that "I" can is the very essence of and the root of sin.

I think this is our experience because we are so ingrained with the idea of rewards for success. I like what Watchman Nee writes about the solution;

God’s means of delivering us from sin is not by making us stronger and stronger, but by making us weaker and weaker. That is surely rather a peculiar way of victory, you say; but it is the Divine way. God sets us free from the dominion of sin, not by strengthening our old man but by crucifying him; not by helping him to do anything but by removing him from the scene of action.

For years, maybe, you have tried fruitlessly to exercise control over yourself, and perhaps this is still your experience; but when once you see the truth you will recognize that you are indeed powerless to do anything, but that in setting you aside altogether God has done it all. Such a revelation brings human self-effort to an end.

"For years, maybe, you have tried fruitlessly to exercise control over yourself, and perhaps this is still your experience; but when once you see the truth you will recognize that you are indeed powerless to do anything, but that in setting you aside altogether God has done it all. Such a revelation brings human self-effort to an end."

YES!!! SO TRUE!!

This is a great thread! I've really been inspired reading it, thank you for posting it.

Vern,
You said,
Re:
"For years, maybe, ‘YOU’ have tried fruitlessly to exercise control over yourself, and perhaps this is still your experience; but when once ‘YOU’ see the truth ‘’YOU’ recognize that ‘YOU’ are indeed ‘powerless’ to do anything, but that in setting ‘YOU’ aside altogether God has done it all. Such a revelation brings human ‘self-effort’ to an end." ( emphasis on selected words is mine,eliz)
””””””””””

.....Isn’t there something DIRE wrong here with this humanistic reasoning and approach ???

Could you please consider my thought on this matter that is before us ?

We all realize that the ‘YOU’ in us, cannot do/be as God would have,.. in that the flesh is weak,... but we are to be FILLED with The Spirit of the Living God, ( where we receive power)to,..and walk in The Spirit , that we do not fulfill the will of the flesh.
(and are to be led by The Spirit of God)

When we die,... (baptism),.. and we receive ‘power from on high, are we
‘powerless’ ?
””””””””””””-
*and you said,...that we are ‘bonded’ with God, ..we walk bonded with God..
””””””””””””-
But I ask, How can two walk together and not agree ?
Since God is the Word,.. and truth,.. how can a lie walk with Truth, and be in agreement?
””””””””””
I do not understand your reasoning,....
Is it the understanding of The Spirit?,... I think not.

Is this the teaching of Jesus, Paul, and all the disciples,apostles?
””””””””””
They taught ‘the gospel of the kingdom’ , and the principles,.. things pertaining to the heavenly kingdom that The Lord has called us into.

””””””””””””
For His Namesake,
””””””””””””””
elizabeth

First of I never wrote that - it is a quote from Ron Halverson in the post before this statement.

Second - many believers are trying to overcome sin in thier own efforts.

Third - I posted

We walk in a totally different Covenant Bond by which we walk together in pure and perfect relationship with the Father. Our Bond with Father is absolute, it is complete and it is utterly pure and holy without shadow of any kind, ever. It matters not what we feel like. The Father is in us and we see that our Bond with Him, utterly bound together in perfect Covenant union, Father and me, that Bond remains perfect and complete. And that Covenant Bond alone causes sin to vanish from our experience. The New Covenant is the actual Person of Christ who is alive right now within us.

This is the Gospel of the Kingdom - that the KING - JESUS CHRIST lives, dwells and abides within us this VERY SECOND!! We are now in Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:30, "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,"

But there is another word that means hitting the bulls eye. That word is used in Hebrews, but badly translated by the Calvinist translators.

Hi Vern, where is this word used in Hebrews? Thanks.

The word is harmatia.

This is the brand of sin that emphasizes its self-originated (self-empowered) nature ”“ i.e. it is not originated or empowered by God (i.e. not of faith, His inworked persuasion, cf. Ro 14:23).

We have to reckon on taking our thoughts captive . I believe this is the missing thing in a lot of our repentance. And why it has seemed impossible for some people to repent. We will find it very difficult to overcome our most habitual sins without this discipline. As they have become part of our subconscious mind. And we are still tempted by them when were walking around not fully aware what our mind is dwelling upon. The battle for us to give into habitual sin takes place in the mind. Very often when we are daydreaming. Anyone who has had addictions will know this is true.

That's why it says we are to " be alert and self controlled " (1 Peter 5v8) And " gird up the loins of your mind." (1 Peter 1v13) We have to chastise ourselves in doing this and lose our hold on this world and the devils temptations. It means losing your old life and being a person who now has to be alert and self disciplined. I know it's a big change but it's part of becoming mature.

And we will truly become a person that has been transformed by the renewing of our minds. The word transformed is metamorphosed (changed from one type of creature into another) by us renewing our mind)

https://wordoflife.edu/2017/12/13/self-control-and-alert/

Hebrews 3:13, "but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

Paul is not speaking about a heart in which unbelief is merely present, but a heart that is controlled by unbelief. It is a heart that believes that it is sufficient in its self and expects to rule over all sin.

This is the root of sin and becomes an act independence from God.

We now know that we are NOT sufficient by ourselves to think any thing as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God

2 Cor. 3:5, "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;"

NOW Jesus has become our hitting of the target. In other words the sin of "sin" is using the "sin" to drive God far away from ourselves. But when we know that Jesus is our continuous hitting of the target, we place any action that might or might not be "sin," into Him, into His empty grave, and we continue walk as one person together with our Father without hindrance.

Vern this is not a judgement of you but rather what you write and post in a public forum....
it (what you wrote) is patently perverse- full stop.
Completely and totally devoid of the spirit of the living God-full stop.
It (what you wrote) alleges one thing, then promotes another...
twisting not only the scriptures but their intent-
Redefining words/terms, bending them to fit a mode of deception with the end goal of subverting and ultimately overthrowing the faith of some weaker brethren.
Turning the whole counsel of the word on its head for anyone whom unwittingly falls into its trap... leading them into a labyrinth of religious madness all while promising freedom.

These postings are but weeds among the wheat, and tho I have prayed and petitioned the Lord,... I am not allowed to pluck them out, burn them up, nor cut them down- however the Lord has allowed me to "post” them-

Beware all whom read these words,... carefully and prayerfully consider each one as to wether the Lord of hosts is truly the author of such!
Seek the Lord, asking for discernment in these evil days of perverseness lest we, like the silly housewives, be taken captive by a web of lies, deceit and damnable heresies- not one of us is above being deceived, therefore take heed lest when we think we stand, we fall. Examine ourselves to see wether we are in the faith.... and we must put on the full armor (Christ) daily if we are to walk with the Lord, He in His mercy has provided a way and means for His children, let us not neglect that which cost our beloved His life, for how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? He is not playing- this is not a joke- and God is not a respecter of persons. If the righteous scarcely be saved..... where shall the sinner and ungodly appear?

Vern,

"Jesus is our continuous hitting of the target"

Agree.
Good food for thought.
Am putting together scripture for this.
Looking forward to a good discussion.

Back off, Fletcher.

If you’re referring to my post, there was no personal attack on a person or attack on a previous posting... simply a sober warning- not pretending a tare is a stalk of wheat...
As to your point of encouragement, it is well taken and many (including myself) have (past tense) sought to give him the benefit of the doubt and offered repeated points of correction to this particular poster, yet they continue- indeed my heart is grieved by the deception that is clearly and obviously being expounded.
I have no personal issue with Vern, as I do not know nor have ever met him... however the words he puts into a public forum are subject to public scrutiny and I will never "back off” when it comes to rooting out deception and defending the faith handed down to us.
If, in your estimation, I have erred in my warning others about this deception, please by all means point it out offering scriptural correction and I will certainly take it into prayerful consideration...

Honestly, tell me... if you see someone peddling poison to unsuspecting brethren, what would you do?
I know it’s poison because I am quite familiar with this particular flavor and have seen it destroy several otherwise healthy saints in spite of many warnings and pleading- it works like a virus and once you play host to it... well I’ll say it this way,... I’ve watched several be destroyed by its power and never have I witnessed someone get totally free from it - it’s like spiritual meth-

As stated in the initial post, the Lord will not (yet) allow me to pluck or cut down these tares- tho I have petitioned Him since the beginning of this thread...
After your response, instructing me to take it to task, I again petitioned the Lord and His response has not changed but to say there is no scriptural precedent requiring (or instructing) is to "pick apart” a deception piece by piece in order to expose it, simply pointing it out and warning the body of believers is our work,... it is the work of the Holy Spirit to cut away and He is really good at being God and doesn’t need me to do His job for Him-

This is what He allows me to respond with -

\t
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

Greg-

How about this for starters:

//Many belivers act like Cain because they attempt to connect with God by their own labor, a relationship based on "hear and obey." They believe that they should rule over sin and subdue it but living by these words IS the cause of sin in the human.

When a person attempts to relate with God on the basis of not sinning by the knowledge of what God expects, that belief results ONLY in sin and death. "Not sinning" causes sin; it causes both good and evil, both of which are sin. Doing good is as sinful as doing evil, oftentimes more sinful, for the one "doing good" is building his or her own self-righteousness, his or her own claim on God - that is, covenant - because I did, then You must.

The fear of sin causes sin, drawing sin out of self and others//

I am in 100% agreement with Fletcher on this. The danger of this deception is its subtlety and it seems to offer some nebulous solution to the problem of sin by suggesting that if you simply accept that we are one with Christ then the victory is won. That is a bunch of nonsense and runs contrary to the many many warnings and admonitions in the NT.

Todd,

I am not commenting on what Vern wrote but on what you wrote:

I am in 100% agreement with Fletcher on this. The danger of this deception is its subtlety and it seems to offer some nebulous solution to the problem of sin by suggesting that if you simply accept that we are one with Christ then the victory is won. That is a bunch of nonsense and runs contrary to the many many warnings and admonitions in the NT.

Jesus said: ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”

I ask you:

Can the branch which is one with the vine produce any fruit that is not the fruit of the vine?

Can anyone apart from Christ do any good work?

Is anyone apart from Christ accepted by God?

ADD:

Jesus said:

John 17:23 (YLT) ”“
I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.

But you cannot accept this truth of Christ in us.

I cannot change your mind and your hostility to those who believe this.

I can only quote what Gamaliel said:

Acts 5:38-39 ”“
"………for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."

Did not Cain expect to to be blessed by God? He had toiled, worked and sweated for hours, days and weeks before binging the fruit of his labor to God. Did he not kill Abel because he thought that he had worked harder than Abel but God rejected his offering while accepting Abel's?

Cain's offering was not accepted because of his lack of faith. He thought by the works of his hands and all his own efforts he could please God.

The best example of a person who tried to deal with his sin by trying not to sin was Hudson Taylor.

Read this for yourself for it says everything that I said in that post I made.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=27359&forum=34

Jade-

I do not reject that Christ is in us, the hope of glory. This is clearly taught in the NT.

But the idea that if we somehow just **really** accept this we will be hunky dory is just not true. How do you "really” accept something? You either do or you don’t.

But that does not mean that we can just fail to heed all the admonitions in the NT. Should I list them out here?

Todd,

You say that you do not reject that Christ is in us. So, WHAT does Christ in you do for you?

I won't squabble about "'really' accepting" -- whatever you are trying to say. What is the use of quarrelling about words. It is life and truth we want. So, is Christ in you TRUTH in you? Of what use are mere head knowledge and mental assent? HOW does Christ in us become TRUTH in us?

Of course we need to heed all the admonitions in the NT. HOW do you do that? HOW do you obey all the commands in the NT? And how successful have you been? HOW do you become holy as God is holy? HOW do we become perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect?: Remember, we do not want white-washed tombs, beautiful on the outside but full of dead men's bones and uncleanness inside. We want holiness that PERFECTLY matches the holiness of Christ. We want the life that is of EXACTLY the same power and fullness and goodness of Christ. God's standard is "more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think" (Eph. 3:20). Yes, please tell me HOW.

I never said that all will be hunky dory.

Did you read the letter that Hudson Taylor wrote to his sister? Here is a real Christian who was a successful missionary living in China with many converts but was battling sin in his own life.

I also spent much time, effort, energy, prayer, and seeking to find true freedom from sin in my life. After countless defeats and failures I found what Hudson Taylor found.
--------------------------------------
"The Spirit of God revealed the truth of our oneness with Jesus as I had never known it before."

"But how is faith strengthened? Not by striving after faith, but by resting on the Faithful One.

As I read I saw it all! If we believe not, He abideth faithful. I looked to Jesus and saw (and when I saw, oh, how joy flowed!) that He said, I will never leave you. Ah, there is rest! I thought. I have striven in vain to rest in Him. I'll strive no more. For has He not promised to abide with me - never to leave me, never to fail me? And, dearie, He never will!"
--------------------------------------------
Why not make a list of the things he did in the attempt to find true freedom.

There are people here on SI who are struggling with sin but have not yet found the freedom in Christ that He offers.

There is a rest for us to enter and enjoy. There is TRUE freedom from sin here and now. Living a holy life is possible.

Hudson's friend, McCarthy had written a letter to him that really helped.

I pray that my posts can help someone who is struggling with sin to see the same thing!

// pray that my posts can help someone who is struggling with sin to see the same thing!//

But your posts provide no practical suggestions at all!

They basically say if you find "the secret” you will no longer struggle with sin. It’s like an infomercial come-on.

How does a person "rest on the Faithful One” if they believe they already are doing so?

But your posts provide no practical suggestions at all!

Are you looking for a "How To” method and a list of "Things to Do”?

Jesus says: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”

Jesus Himself, and alone, is that Narrow Path. Please do not add other things and other requirements to Jesus Himself and Jesus Only. There is no salvation in the Broad Way.

How does a person "rest on the Faithful One” if they believe they already are doing so?

If you are already resting on Jesus, why are you asking for "practical suggestions”?

There are a few things in the original post that we need to be careful about. The article that was originally posted was concerning striving to be good or to appear to be good. This is different from the Biblical truth of the subject of repentance which Vern has claimed Derek Prince to be talking about. But he isn't. In fact Derek Prince whole heartedly believed in true repentance.

This is just one of the subtleties that continually happen with these posts. Most probably due to a lack of real knowledge of the topic of repentance and dying to self through self denial. And believing the people who practice it aren't enlightened to the truth. It's dangerous for those who can't see what is happening. And they can be led into a life of disillusionment. When the Holy Spirit is convicting us of one thing but we have these messages telling us not to put any effort into repentance .

I don't mind anyone talking about the change that can happen through resting in God's provision of grace but this goes far and above the Biblical teaching and is hyper grace teaching.

Because it does away with the life of over coming that Christ called us to in Revelation chapter 3 for example. And also where we are called to put to death whatever belongs to our earthly nature.

This grace teaching is one of ease. But there are times we will be called to enter into a life of greater obedience and maturity and single mindedness in leaving this world behind to follow Christ.. we then have to guard our mind.

We need to be aware that continually believing that grace will change our whole personality inside out and will eventually do away with all of our deepest sins, can and will lead us into a spiritual Coma. Of which most will never see the fallacy of for the rest of their life on earth. They are so trained by the deception of the total emphasis of this as the only thing necessary and claiming that this is the only thing we are called to.

Christ never taught this way of grace as a means to over come anywhere in the Gospels. Much rather he taught the higher calling of self denial. And of stopping sinning.

Paul continued this when the person caught in fornication in the church at Corinth was not given this grace teaching as the way they should change, but were prevented from fellowship until they repented.

I don't mean to sound unmerciful. Just trying to point out that the teaching of grace as the only entrance to do away with everything wrong with our walk isn't the only way things are taught in the Bible.

Cain was mentioned by Vern too. The real story of this was of the Lord confronting Cain after he had murdered Abel and telling him that sin was crouching at his door. Saying "sin desires to have you but you must rule over it"

The same Lord Jesus tells us to do the same thing in various stories in the new testament.
So the teaching has never gone away.

Beware of what Christendom in our present evil age is trying to do to the church. It will take away our feelings of accountability and teach us to refuse the conviction of God and prevent us entering into true repentance. It will lead you along dark paths.

10,000 "thumbs up” David. Very well stated.

"The cross has done things For us but God also intended that the cross do things IN us. This is distinct from Jesus did on the cross for us. We will never enjoy the permanent benefits of what He has accomplished for us unless we permit the cross to do in us what God has ordained. Nearly all of the problems that beset the Church, both collectively and individually, are due to our failure to let the cross do its work in us."

(Derek Prince - from "Bought With Blood: The Divine Exchange At The Cross" - ch 12)

doc: I'm certainly not there yet but the above saves us from trying to do good which usually always leads to legalistic standards which we use to judge our spirituality by. If the cross is allowed BY FAITH to do its work IN us we are delivered from legalism and trying to do good.

Satan's main work is to try and obscure the reality of the cross in the believer's life and beguile the Church into looking elsewhere for provision.

Be encouraged. Blessings.

Over coming sin isn't a permanent life of striving. When you overcome what Christ lays on your heart to overcome you revert back to abiding and resting in grace.

Otherwise you would just be living a whole life outside of God's provision of the Holy Spirit for us and the new life he has given us.
It's a season you go through

Do you overcome sin by grace (God's work in us) or by self-work (i.e. flesh)?

Titus 2 v 11.
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
12 It teaches us to say "No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,

Its an act of obeying the conviction of the Holy Spirit Jade
so it's a spiritual element to us.

David,

Do you make yourself holy through much self-perseverance?

"Do you overcome sin by grace (God's work in us) or by self-work (i.e. flesh)?”

I always thought we overcome sin by the blood of Jesus.

It's obeying Christ. As Hebrews 10 v 36 says.

How do you both fulfill this verse of Scripture "Take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" ?

Tell me how you both do it. Do you persevere ?

"Do you overcome sin by grace (God's work in us) or by self-work (i.e. flesh)?”

I always thought we overcome sin by the blood of Jesus.

Amen, Bill. We overcome sin by the blood of Jesus that was shed for us at the cross. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

It is 100% God’s work. The work was finished by Jesus at the cross. By one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified (Heb. 10:14).

It is 0% man’s work. All our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment (Isa. 64:6).

It's obeying Christ. As Hebrews 10 v 36 says.

How do you both fulfill this verse of Scripture "Take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" ?

Tell me how you both do it. Do you persevere?

(1)

2 Cor. 10:5 ”“
We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,

We are MADE RIGHTEOUS THROUGH CHRIST’S OBEDIENCE:

Rom. 5:19 ”“
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, EVEN SO THROUGH THE OBEDIENCE OF THE ONE THE MANY WILL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS.

(2)

Heb. 10:36 ”“
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

THIS IS THE WILL OF GOD:

John 6:40 ”“
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who BEHOLDS THE SON and BELIEVES IN HIM will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Our obedience is the obedience of faith in Jesus.

Acts 16:31 - Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved……

Rom. 1:5 ”“
through whom we have received grace and apostleship TO BRING ABOUT THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,

(3)

BEHOLD THE SON

We see Jesus, the Great I AM.

John 8:58””
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." ”“

John 8:24 (ISV) ”“
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you'll die in your sins.

We behold Jesus ---
The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29)
The Bread of Life (John 6:35,48)
The Light of the World (John 8:12, 9:5)
The Door for the Sheep (John 10:7,9)
The Good Shepherd (John 10:11,14)
The Resurrection and the Life (John 11:25)
The Way, the Truth and the Life (John 14:6)
The True Vine (John 15)
Our Wisdom from God, and Righteousness and Sanctification and Redemption (1 Cor. 1:30)

We behold Jesus ---
He lives in us! (John 14:20, 17:21-26, Gal. 2:20)

And so much, so much more. Of things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard and which have not entered into the heart of man (1 Cor. 2:9). The riches of Christ are unfathomable (Eph. 3:8).

BEHOLD. BELIEVE. TRANSFORMED.

2 Cor. 3:18 ”“
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Hallelujah!

(4)

GOD’S PRECIOUS REST ”“ DO NOT DESPISE IT OR BELITTLE IT

Heb. 3:17-19 ”“
And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb. 4:3, 10 ”“
For we who have believed enter that rest……For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

Admonition:

Heb. 4:1 ”“
Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.

Heb. 4:11 ”“
Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Glorious rest!

Matt. 6:28-30 ”“
Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!

(5)

PERSEVERANCE

Of course, we persevere!!!

Here is how:

Heb. 10:22 ”“
let us draw near with a true heart IN FULL ASSURANCE OF FAITH……

Heb. 6:11-12 ”“
And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the FULL ASSURANCE OF HOPE UNTIL THE END, so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who THROUGH FAITH AND PATIENCE INHERIT THE PROMISES.

Heb. 10:36-39 ”“
For you have NEED OF ENDURANCE, so that when you have done the will of god, you may receive what was promised.
For yet in a very little while, he who is coming will come, and will not delay.
But MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
And if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.
But WE ARE not of those who draw back to perdition, but of THOSE WHO BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL.

Heb. 12:1-2 ”“
Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and LET US RUN WITH ENDURANCE THE RACE THAT IS SET BEFORE US, FIXING OUR EYES ON JESUS, THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF FAITH, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Tim. 6:12 ”“
Fight the good fight of faith

2 Tim. 4:7 ”“
I have fought the good fight, I HAVE FINISHED THE RACE, I HAVE KEPT THE FAITH.

John 11:40 ”“
Jesus said to her, "Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?"

Jude 1:24-25 ”“
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Blessings

But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. - 1 Corinthians 9:27

Jade Wrote

"We are MADE RIGHTEOUS THROUGH CHRIST’S OBEDIENCE:"

YES! Let it done done in me according to your word!

For we do walk inside of the flesh, but we do not wage war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but are God-enabled towards the tearing down of fortresses, overthrowing arguments, and every high thing or barrier lifting itself up against the knowledge of God and taking captive every thought into submission to hearing Christ inside of your possession of readiness to dispense justice to all who hear amiss, even when your own submission to
hearing has been made full.

CofG Robert. I think it's a fruitless discussion as some here don't want to hear things.

2 Tim 3 v 16,17
All Scripture is given ... for doctrine, for reproof... for correction ...
that the - MAN OF GOD - may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I don't like trying to come across as someone that knows the Scriptures as it was the Lord that showed me some things. I do so to try and share with people that there is a narrow way, a way only reached by taking up our cross daily.

If we are wrong about any part of scripture then we have to listen to what the Scripture says and change our thinking. (This is only to people who are a genuine follower of the teaching of the Bible. A Man Of God according to 2 Timothy.)
If we don't then we are danger of not being recognized by the Lord as a person that is like this.

Some people on this forum don't seem to not want the Lords authority and his Scriptures over us. But even when certain people here have had verses to confront them of the danger of hyper grace, they don't want to listen but have their own fixed agenda.

When I was younger I only believed in walking by grace as the only thing that was pleasing to the Lord. Then I learnt the principle of the verse you have kindly provided. It shocked me that God could want me to use the full force of my will in certain areas at certain times. As I had previously tried to knock out of the way anyone that told me I should use effort in any area of the Christian walk.

2 Peter : make every effort to add to your faith goodness; knowledge; self-control; perseverance; godliness. mutual affection, love... 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe that as wonderful and beautiful it was for Martin Luther to recover the truth of justification by faith and not works, many in modern-day Protestantism think that after we are justified we just wait for Heaven. However, the salvation God offers us in Jesus is not only forgiveness and justification but also deliverance from the power of sin to bear fruit for God. Practical sanctification however is not trying our best to keep the Law. There is a work that God is trying to accomplish in our inner-life by our cooperating with the Holy Spirit. Our hearts need transformation and it is accomplished gradually over time by things like abiding in Christ, walking in the Spirit, reckoning ourselves dead to sin and alive to God, spiritual warfare, living by faith, etc. While this is very different than being "under the law" trying in our own strength to please God, we do need to adopt a strong willingness to be led by the Spirit. Someone said that grace is not opposed to effort but to "earning".

The original post speaks about the Christian trying to bring about practical sanctification in their life by sheer self-effort. This is very reminiscent to what is spoken of in Romans 7. New Testament practical sanctification comes about by our cooperating with the Holy Spirit and does involve willingness to be led. So many threads in this forum wind up being debates about "His part" vs. "our part". Overemphasizing His part becomes "hypergrace" and overemphasizing our part becomes "legalism" or "works righteousness". There is a balance.

-Daniel

"The original post speaks about the Christian trying to bring about practical sanctification in their life by sheer self-effort. This is very reminiscent to what is spoken of in Romans 7. New Testament practical sanctification comes about by our cooperating with the Holy Spirit and does involve willingness to be led. So many threads in this forum wind up being debates about "His part" vs. "our part". Overemphasizing His part becomes "hypergrace" and overemphasizing our part becomes "legalism" or "works righteousness". There is a balance."

Thank you Daniel for bringing in the proper balance to this discussion.

All those that have attempted to conquer sin through self effort and striving in the flesh will certainly find themselves in a Romans 7 scenario. The good news of the gospel is that the grace of God not only is unmerited favor in which we receive forgiveness of sins based on the shed blood of Jesus Christ, but the true grace of God is also the power of God to live a holy life.

Does this mean that we passively wait on God to do everything for us? Not at all, and agreeing with what my brother said, we are to actively use our will and agree with what God has said about our being dead to sin, but alive unto God. We are to exercise faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ, working out our salvation with fear and trembling, because it is God that is working in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12,13)

Being under legalism is a heavy yoke that God has never intended for us to carry, but it seems to me that the pendulum has swung to the other side, and now there is a lot of greasy grace being taught in the church. This kind of teaching that Jesus did it all, and that there is nothing for us to do, that we are still sinners and we will sin every day for our merciful God forgives sin will not produce holiness in our lives.

The true grace of God is this:

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:12).

Brother Mike and Daniel,

I was not quoting Paul for the purpose of establishing self effort apart from resting in what Christ has accomplished in us and the imputing and imparting of His righteous life in us. Just trying to counter balance the arguments of others.

Brother Mike, I'm not at all sure that Romans 7 describes a Christian's experience as there are phrases Paul uses in that chapter that elsewhere Paul directly says do not apply to Christians but that is a whole other debate.

What I have heard and read from many is actually a debate about whether the born again Christian is only able to let the life of Christ be lived out of Him ( only a surrendered life ) or whether the surrendered Christian strives, fights, and disciplines himself to be more like Christ. That is, is Christ likeness just a matter of surrender or is Christ likeness also a transformational process of the inner man actually being renewed and conformed to the image of Jesus through and through in mind, emotions and will.

Are we cobuilders and co workers with Christ in the construction of a holy temple ( us and the church ) where He supplies the plans, resources and strength? The apostles thought so. The Trinity, the five fold ministry, the individual and the members of the body are co laborers with each other in building up the individual and the body ( individual and corporate ) into the maturity, the fullness, and the reality of Christ likeness which is the Father's predestined plan for His children. Not just adoption into the family of God but also by transformation in His likeness.

To me, I believe the proper balance is that it is both. We are being transformed at the same time that we surrender to Christ's life flowing through us. To capture an old illustration, the ingrafted branch has the tree's life flowing through it but also, as that life flows through it, the wild shoot is being transformed in its essential nature.

The sanctification process is a passive one and an active one in the strength (life, power, love and holiness) He supplies.

One day we will see Him as He is and be transformed into his likeness completely. We will be like Him and that is incontrovertible.

Along the way during this life, we are beholding Him as He manifests Himself to us by walking with us and through us and through this manifestaion in the walk of a life surrendered to Him, He changes us into His likeness by the Spirit from one glorious manifestation and revelation to the next. That is the Bible

Not either or, but both and. That's the balance that I see in Scripture between the passive and the active and between the life of Christ or the Christ like life.

Vern and Jade,
I do not want to cause a debate on what I am going to ask you, by any means, .. but are you settled down into the OSAS denomination, position ?
Just wondering.....

Another question:
Do you believe in ‘just Jesus’, .... or
‘The Jesus’ , who is The Word, and who has spoken / preached many sermons , .. for all to hear, and to adhear to ?

If we are a believer in this Jesus Christ, The Word, ...this ‘every Word of God is very pure, therefore thy servant loveth it’,.. ‘Thy Word That is a Lamp unto my feet,and a light unto my path’ ,....and man does not live (or,have Life) by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God,..

The Fathers Word flowed out of the mouth of Jesus.
*This is the True Jesus.

This Jesus,... this Word, ..Which is The Holy Spirit of God,Comes into us to Live in us,... (to resurrect)... to , not I, to live, ...not us, to do our own way, but us to surrender our life in exchange for the Life, .. eternal Life of God),but He, His Life,.. His will to be ,surrendered to ....resurrect, .....,.Resurrection, Life.
””””””””””””
Rom.11:22,
" Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, ‘if’ thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”
””””””””””-

Yes, ...The Jesus who is "I Am The Way,” ...
He has taught us His Way, (The Way), in all the Words That The Father gave Him to say,... preached to us,....that narrow Way

"I Am The Truth” , All His Words He said to us,..to all people is "Truth”

"I AmThe Life” ..... Eternal everlasting Life,..

Do we want this "Life” ?
...He offers us Life and that more abundantly.
Then we must go in His "Way” , Which is through His Truth”
In order to have His Life, .living,.. resurrecting in us.
””””””””””””
His Word, which is in us,.. The Holy Spirit of The Living God, comes up from within us onto our tongue, ....our help in time of need.... a fountain of Living Water.
””””””””””-
elizabeth

Jesus Himself is the Word of God (John 1:1-2,14).
He is the Word of Life (1 John 1:1).
Scriptures speak of Him (John 5:39-40; Luke 24:27,44-45; 1 Cor. 2:2).
So, let us read the Bible to see Jesus only.
Everything that He asks us to do, He Himself is the Lord who does that thing.
Everything that He asks us to be, He Himself is the Lord who is that one.
We are to be just like Him.
The Holy Spirit glorifies Christ and takes what is Christ’s and declares it to us (John 16:14).
The Holy Spirit makes Christ real in us (John 14:16-17,20).
Christ lives in me by faith and I am filled with the fullness of God (Eph. 3:17-19).
I am complete in Christ (Col. 2:9-10).

Elizabeth, if East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet, let us agree to disagree.

As for OSAS, I genuinely do not know what that is. The Spirit of Christ who leads me has led me to Christ alone, and, has led me to NONE of these doctrines of men. I am interested in scripture alone. I stand on scripture alone. And, I will discuss scripture alone.

Blessings

Re:Jade:
"Everything that He asks us to do, He Himself is the Lord who does that thing.
Everything that He asks us to be, He Himself is the Lord who is that one.”
””””””””””””””

Lk.6:46,
"¶ And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and ‘do not’ the things which I say?”
””””””””””-
Lk.19:20-23,
Note: Jesus is giving a parable of the kingdom of God,...
..a man comes to earth,... gives out portions to men,to see what they will "DO” with the gift that He gives to them,.. and then returns to heaven , a King,..
(Jn.18:37,
" ¶ Pilate therefore said unto him, ‘Art thou a king’ then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am ‘a king’. ‘To this end was I born’ ,and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”

Lk.19:20-23,
" ¶ And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?”
””””-
Then the results of that >>>>

Lk.19:27,
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.”
””””””-
Note: there be some that will not allow the King, who is Jesus to reign over them.... pray,... let it not be us, ...
””””””-
He comes to earth,.... gives gifts,.. portions to men, returns to where He came,A King over this heavenly Kingdom,....
””””””””””-
elizabeth

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

:

You left out this:

I also said that we are to be just like Him.

We do everything He tells us to do and be all that He asks us to be by the mighty power of Christ in me through His Holy Spirit in us.

This is from the book - IT IS FINISHED by David Wilkerson.

2 - Freedom from the Dominion of Sin

Now that we understand the foundation of the New Covenant into which we have entered with God, we can begin to appropriate its promises. One of the first steps we take is facing the truth that we cannot rescue ourselves from the power of sin. It is simply impossible for any believer to deliver himself from sin's dominion. That work can be accomplished only by the Holy Spirit.

This divine work is complicated by a twofold problem, however. God has to accomplish two things in us before He can deliver us from our besetting sins.

First, God has to inspire the sin-bound person to want to be free. By nature, man does not want to be delivered from his sin. He simply will not respond to a gracious mercy call. So, God has to implement a plan or device that will allow a person to see the exceeding wickedness of his sin. This person has to become sin-sick, aware of how wicked and devastating his sin is, before he will yearn for deliverance. He has to come to his wits' end, where he sees he is being ruined by sin - helpless, wretched, empty, ensnared and deceived by sin, and laden down with guilt.

Second, God has to cause the sin-bound person to see the utter futility of his own efforts to set himself free. Man remains convinced he can cut off his own chains. He thinks if he struggles hard enough or works out the correct formula, he will be able to free himself from Satan's grip. The Lord, therefore, has to bring him to a point of total surrender, where he submits his struggle completely into God's hands.

How does the Lord accomplish these two things? How does He cause the sin-bound person, first, to see his transgressions as exceedingly sinful, and, second, to give up the fight in his flesh, admitting, "I can't do it. I'm helpless to free myself from this sin. Lord, You have to do it in me"?

Scripture explains that this twofold work is accomplished in us by the Old Covenant. Indeed, we cannot fully understand or appropriate the blessing of the New Covenant until the Old Covenant has accomplished this dual work in us.

By its very design, the Old Covenant of works was intended to teach enslaved man how high and holy his heavenly Father is. The Ten Commandments, for example, give us a picture of what is known as the moral law. This is a representation of the heart and nature of God - a nature of holiness, purity, righteousness. It sets a standard so high no human can possibly reach it in his own strength.

After giving man these commandments, God then commanded him to obey His Law perfectly. In fact, anyone who failed to keep a single law was guilty of violating them all. That person might love God, be a faithful spouse and do good works, but if he had even the slightest adulterous or idolatrous thought in his heart, he would be breaking the entire covenant. God said, "Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant,then you shall be a ... holy nation" (Exodus 19:5-6). "Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people" (Jeremiah 7:23).

You may wonder, "Why would God make a covenant He knew no one could keep?" Simply put, it was the only way God could bring man to the end of himself - to cause him to see the futility of relying on his own strength to be holy. This is why Paul called the Old Covenant "the ministry of death" (2 Corinthians 3:7). He knew it requires of us a kind of dying. In plain language, we all must die to any attempt to establish our own righteousness, and to any thought that we can deliver ourselves from sin's strongholds.

The moral law is also meant to make man see his guilt: "By the law is the knowledge of sin... that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" (Romans 3:20, 19). Once we see our iniquity soberly, we are silenced by its exceeding sinfulness. "Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound" (Romans 5:20). Through the revelation of the Law, our sins become offensive to us - disturbing, sickening, overwhelming.

By setting His standard of holiness so high, God was proving to man that he could never attain the Law in his own strength. Instead, He was placing man in a school - a place where he would be taught how utterly wicked and sinful he was. By graduation time, he should be a dead man - dead to any hope he might have of freeing himself from the bondage of sin.

Likewise today, as long as we have the slightest idea we can achieve holiness on our own, we are still living under the Old Covenant's ministration of death. God's whole idea behind implementing this covenant is to send us to our death.

After studying this aspect of the covenant, I wrote the following conclusion in my journal:

The Old Covenant has finished its work. It has put me on my face - empty, helpless, wounded, weak - and now it can fade away. I am fully persuaded that I cannot by human strength and will obey or please God. I have no plea of holiness. I am without strength, and I can do nothing in my own ability. My sin is too powerful, the chains too heavy. I am too wicked to free myself. I need a miracle, and I need a helper. All I can do now is cry, Abba, Father.

To be honest I've never considered David Wikerson as someone that has a grasp of true repentance. You can see this in the conditions he is putting into his teachings to overcome sin here. Saying that a person must wait until they first become sick of their sin isn't a Biblical teaching whatsoever. And it sounds like it's come from someone who doesn't understand personally the power that some addictions like pornography or Cocaine can have upon that person. You just have to have a desire to obey God first as a reason to repent. Not wait for a certain feeling.

Taking every thought captive instead of indulging in thought full desires about sin is what's missing in most people's experience of repenting. It's a pity David didn't teach this.
It's a battle for our mind that we are in

I know a pastor in his early sixties who has served God faithfully for all his years. Since the day he met the Lord, he lived free of any plaguing evil thoughts. But suddenly, in his later years, he was struck down with a deep, horrible depression. A dark cloud came upon him from out of nowhere - and in the pit of his depression, evil thoughts of lust began to plague his mind.

This man could not understand what was happening. He cried out, "Oh, Lord, where did this come from? What is happening to me?" But the heavens seemed closed - and the evil thoughts persisted.

Finally, the godly minister saw that he had two options. First, he could cast himself to the ground - weeping, mourning and wallowing in despair over a sin he could not comprehend. He could allow fear to overcome him and the devil to fill him with dread. He could turn inward, feeling unworthy, lost, wicked. And he could act as his own high priest, trying everything in his own power to straighten out what had happened. He could pray, "Lord, You know this isn't like me. If You will just give me time and be patient with me, I will get on top of it. I will do my best never again to think these evil thoughts. I want to get back to where I was before this hellish invasion came upon me. Whatever it takes, I'll pull myself out of it."

But if the minister did this, he would be doing exactly as Uzziah had done. He would be entering the holy place with strange fire - his censer filled with human energy and the works of the flesh. He would be striving, working, operating under his own power to set himself free.

Thank God, this servant of the Lord chose the second option. He quickly realized, "I'm no high priest," and he turned to the one and only High Priest, Jesus Christ. He prayed, "Lord, I don't know what has happened, but You have promised me by Your covenant that You would see me through - and I believe You.

"You commanded me to bring every thought captive to obedience to Your Word, but right now You know I have no human strength to do that. All these evil thoughts are raging in my mind, and I can't stop them. Satan is plaguing me with them. Yet, Jesus, You made a covenant to put within me a new heart and a new mind. You said You would forgive me and keep me, and that Your Holy Spirit would empower me to overcome. So now, Lord, I come boldly on the grounds of Your covenant, to obtain all the power You have promised me through Your Spirit. I step out in faith in that power, trusting You to deliver me from my oppressor."

The minister then stood still and waited to see the salvation of the Lord. And, indeed, God delivered him by heavenly power - through the mercy, grace, energy and fire of the Holy Spirit.

It's nice the old man found freedom that way. It rarely happens in that manner though. The world is full of people who have left the faith because they never got an answer this way.
Most of the times when people with this problem receive ministry and prayer in this matter the end results is the minister realizes the person has to repent. It may take time.
Plus we aren't getting the complete story of this old guy. How these thoughts started coming to him.

Why didn't Jesus give the woman caught in adultery this kind of teaching ?

I found this message to be a refresher,...

"Preparing For The Fire Of God”
Gbile Akanni

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5UQ8DczCdI&feature=share

Hope it blesses and encourage you, too,
””””””””””””””-
elizabeth

I apologize if I sound unmerciful in my replies. I'm trying to defend the way of over coming my major sins. Sexual immorality hate and judging my parents. I had to discipline myself and take all my thoughts captive. The Lord led me out to the hills each night to do battle with my thought life and to pray.

And I got victory over my past life and was changed. And got brought into an incredible place of fellowship with the Lord.

It certainly didn’t take Saul of Tarsus a lot of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth to realize what a rotten sinner he was. It took about .2 seconds- the time between being blinded by the light and saying "who are you, **Lord**?” It was then that the real work began. Two seconds before the light hit he had no idea he was sinning.

The story of the old man is wishful thinking. It might happen that way one out of 10,000 times.

Who knows how long it was for Saul and how much he went through in that split second?

2 Pet. 3:8 -- But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Good teaching from David Wilkerson.

SERVANTS OF A NEW COVENANT

2 Cor. 3:5-6 ”“
Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

GOD ACTS ACCORDING TO HIS COVENANT

Ps. 106:44-45 ”“
Nevertheless He looked upon their distress
When He heard their cry;
And He remembered His covenant for their sake,
And relented according to the greatness of His lovingkindness.

THOUGH IT TARRIES, WAIT FOR IT, FOR IT CERTAINLY WILL COME

Hab. 2:3 ”“
For the vision is yet for the appointed time;
It hastens toward the goal and it will not fail.
Though it tarries, wait for it;
For it will certainly come, it will not delay.

Ps. 130:5-6 ”“
I wait for the LORD, my soul waits,
And in His word I do hope.
My soul waits for the Lord
More than the watchmen for the morning;
Indeed, more than the watchmen for the morning.

STAND STILL AND SEE THE SALVATION OF THE LORD

2 Chr. 20:17 ”“
You will not need to fight in this battle. Position yourselves, stand still and see the salvation of the LORD, who is with you……

David,

The old man’s experience is as true as yours. Why do you scoff at his experience and exalt your own?

Ps. 115:1
Not to us, O LORD, not to us,
But to Your name give glory
Because of Your lovingkindness, because of Your truth.

It is JESUS who saves us from our sins.

Deut. 8:17-18 ”“
Otherwise, you may say in your heart, ‘My power and the strength of my hand made me this wealth.’ But you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who is giving you power to make wealth, THAT HE MAY CONFIRM HIS COVENANT WHICH HE SWORE TO YOUR FATHERS, as it is this day.

Ps. 108:3 ”“
THROUGH GOD we will do valiantly,
And IT IS HE who shall tread down our adversaries.

Ps. 71:1-16 ”“
But as for me, I will hope continually,
And will praise You yet more and more.
My mouth shall tell of Your righteousness
And of Your salvation all day long;
For I do not know the sum of them.
I will come with the mighty deeds of the Lord GOD;
I will make mention of Your righteousness, Yours alone.

Ps. 44:3 ”“
For by their own sword they did not possess the land,
And their own arm did not save them,
But Your right hand and Your arm and the light of Your presence,
For You favored them.
v. 6-8 ”“
For I will not trust in my bow,
Nor will my sword save me.
But You have saved us from our adversaries,
And You have put to shame those who hate us.
In God we have boasted all day long,
And we will give thanks to Your name forever. Selah.

You said: "……and to pray.”

Amen.

The old man prayed too.

Ps. 65:2 ”“
O You who hear prayer,
To You all men come.

Ps. 55:16 ”“
As for me, I shall call upon God,
And the LORD will save me.
v.18 ”“
He will redeem my soul in peace from the battle which is against me,
For they are many who strive with me.

God's house is a house of prayer. Ask and you will receive.

The "incredible place of fellowship with the Lord” is the Most Holy Place. The only way to enter there is "by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh” (Heb. 10:19-20).

Gal. 6:14 ”“
But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Blessings

We must, of course, be humble for our prayer to be acceptable to God.

PARABLE ON PRAYER

Luke 18:10-14

And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’

But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’

I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

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Hi Jade,

I am not sure what you mean about scoffing at the old man ?

I'm not against grace. And receiving that through faith. It is when we use that as the sole means for our transformation and change when the Lord asks us to do other things in the Scriptures like taking control of our thought life etc.

Most of the Scriptures that have been quoted though are taken out of context I believe.

Romans 7 for example is used as a reason why we can't change anything for ourselves. But Paul was talking in the third person describing the way the carnal man desires to operate within him. If he was saying that there's nothing he can do to change himself and his behaviour then he would be wrong to then go on to tell people they should repent. Which he does in various writings.

I'm trying to stand up for what's right in as far as we are called to walk upon a narrow way. To take up our cross to deny self daily.

I do believe in grace and it's strength. But not when people are telling us we can't do anything to repent and obey God in our minds.

And Paul said we are still being saved. And also our salvation is closer now than when we first believed. We are being called unto a holy life. I'm trying to warn people. It's not over yet. We have to follow Christ.

I never said it was over. The truth is that Christ living, dwelling and abiding within us is is just the beginning.

Jesus Christ Himself is our CONTINUOUS and NEVER ENDING connection to GOD!

The Holy Spirit takes the things of Christ and makes them real to us every second of every day. This does not end.

The Christian life is one of non-ending discovery of the Revelation of CHRIST living WITHIN US us our "only hope of glory.

All commands, extortions, admonitions and warnings are truly satisfied and are being fulfilled by Christ's life within us.

2 Peter 1:3-4, "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

We will never keep the commandments, only as we take hold of the promise of eternal Life that Gods gives us in Christ. By this I mean, that grace alone (the actual person of Christ living, dwelling and abiding with us) enables us, from the heart, to obey the commandments of God. It is, therefore, only when we lay hold of Him by faith, can we receive and enjoy the fulfillment in ourselves. This the only obedience possible because it is the only way for us to keep the commandments of God.

For example, how can anyone love the Lord our God, according to the first great commandment? God Himself is the only source of this love that is required. No person can ever produce this love by anything that they do or that they avoid doing, In other words, it is the person of Christ who is within us who continually supplies God's love in us and through us.

Now Christ has made us partakers of God's divine nature, or the attributes and perfections of God. We receive Christ's very heart that includes all of His tendencies, inclinations, propensities and dispositions. By this I mean, the perfections of God cause the like perfections in us - so that the same exercises, in kind, that are in the divine mind, are, by the Spirit, through Christ are begotten in our minds. The exhibition of the nature and attributes of God, as exhibited by the Spirit, transforms us into the same image.

Paul expresses it, in 2 Cor. 3:18; "We all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." The Bible everywhere abounds with declarations and representations to this effect. It represents us as participating deeply, in his exercises, both of holiness and of happiness.

The commandments require perfect and continuous obedience and perfection on pain of death. It only takes one miss step, one sin of commission or one sin of omission to be found ENTIRELY GUILTY of the whole law. The law offers no forgiveness and no grace. The law offers just death and no hope.

The law was the ministration of death, but the New of righteousness and life. 2 Cor. 3:6-16: "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses, for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away; how shall not the ministration of the Spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing, then, that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: and not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away."

The Life of Christ within us supplies and fulfills all what the law requires by CAUSING God's people to render perfect and continuous obedience.

Everything that He asks us to do, He Himself is the Lord who does that thing. Everything that He asks us to be, He Himself is the Lord who is that one. We are to be just like Him.

The Holy Spirit makes Christ real in us (John 14:16-17,20). Christ lives in me by faith and I am filled with the fullness of God (Eph. 3:17-19). I am complete in Christ (Col. 2:9)

The law demands us to be holy and now we are holy. Don't you know that your body (a clay pot, your earthy vessel or earth suit) is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

The law required a perfect and holy heart. Ezek. 18:31. Christ's life within us provides holiness and gives us His holy heart. This is not just a one time gift but a continual, never ending and never ceasing the giving of HIMSELF to us that just keeps unfolding and expanding.

Christ's life within us is the producing of this perfect and perpetual obedience. This is the grand distinction between the law and Christ's Life within that produces the very temper required by the law.

The law could NEVER secure obedience that it demanded. It left men to the exercise of their own strength but now Christ is our continuous effectual sanctification.

The law could never produce life but now Jesus Christ is our life. Romans 8:2-4, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

The law made nothing perfect. Heb. 7:19, "For the LAW MADE NOTHING PERFECT, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God."

We see that the law required the highest perfection that God requires of man, and now we see that this law is now being fulfilled by Christ Himself.

The condition of receiving the Life of Christ is faith - Gal. 3:14: "That the blessing of Abraham, might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit THROUGH FAITH." Now it is impossible that Christ should be received upon any other condition than faith. Without confidence or faith there can be no love; and there cannot be genuine faith that does not produce love.

Now the whole object of God in the Gospel is not to set aside the obedience that the law required, but to bring men into real obedience to it through Christ living, dwelling and abiding within us.

"Christ is my life; I have no other life. Christ is all there is in me." "I am crucified with Christ." That's it. It's done, it's finished, it's over with.

There is no me or self that "needs to die." I have no self to die to. I am already dead to sin. That means that I have no connection to sin and sin has no connection to me. that I am already dead, the work of the cross is 100% complete in my life, and if I can also see that I am still alive, all I can do is what Paul does in Galatians 2:20. "Hey, it's not me, it's Christ, only it's me, only it's Christ."

I do recommend that everyone read this book - ALL OF GRACE By C.H. SPURGEON.

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/spurgeon/grace/files/grace.html

Now if what was being proposed was true then that would make the NT verses on us being judged by God for "our works/deeds done in our bodies” a lie..... God is not a man that He should lie- full stop.

It grieved me that the Lord would not allow me to make short work of these postings,... however in observing this thread play out in real time, something the Lord told me after He told me not to engage the poster has now become quite clear:))) He told me; "do not feed it” and while initially that came with enough light to obey, subsequently it has become much clearer why He said that.

Hopefully this will help us to prayerfully consider our obedience before God and man, especially on SI as it has a broad sphere of influence and it’s not just our doctrine and theology that’s being examined, but most certainly our conduct/obedience to God. It is important that if others use our words or example of conduct, that it lead/point them to Christ Jesus🙏🏻 Simply being "good” or quoting scriptures is not enough, like just believing isn’t enough for even the demons believe...

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Hi David,

This battle is not new. It had been waged more than a century ago by J. C. Ryle and his camp against Andrew Murray and the Keswick camp. While theologians in cosy armchairs in comfortable homes condemned them, these teachings were embraced by many missionaries in China, Africa and elsewhere and they found strength and peace to carry on through the difficulties and persecutions they had to endure.

Still, J. C. Ryle, was gracious to say:

……I say in conclusion, let us exercise charity in our judgements of one another. Towards those who think holiness is to be promoted by the modern, so-called ‘spiritual life’ movement, I feel nothing but charity. If they do good, I am thankful. Towards myself and those who agree with me, I ask them to feel charity in return. The last day will show who is right and who is wrong. In the meantime, I am quite certain that to exhibit bitterness and coldness towards those who cannot conscientiously work with us is to prove ourselves very ignorant of real holiness.

(May SI participants note what he said.)

David, what is the difference between your belief and New Age beliefs. They practise such things as meditation and chanting and visualization and believe in the power of the mind and the power of thoughts. I was there. New Age teachings had greatly appealed to me. Then one day I read a book on the power of Eastern chants by a reputable journalist. I tried a simple chant. And, it worked! I should have been elated and marched on. But it frightened me. I cannot explain it. I had to put the book away. I found in my heart a new need to prove once and for all if the Christian God is really real.

I borrowed Josh McDowell’s "The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict” from the library and began to read it. It wasn’t his arguments that convinced me. Not many pages into the book, a tiny detail, surely so uninteresting to man’s intellect, hit me, and Light burst through. When God reveals Himself, it is with power that is not of man and fills the heart with immense peace and joy and the presence of God and love for God. I had no input in that at all. So began my Christian life.

The Christian life I have found is the life of blessed rest in Christ. It is the life of the branch in the Vine told by the Lord Jesus in John 15. It is Christ’s very own life in us enabling us to be exactly as He is, conformed to His image, an exact representation of His being.

There is no other way. God’s thoughts are infinitely higher than our thoughts. God’s ways are infinitely higher than our ways. And God’s work infinitely transcends any of our own. The difference between God and us is the utter difference between water and wine. Only God Himself can give us heavenly wine (John 2).

Yes, faith without works is dead. Our faith is in Christ and our works are the mighty works of Christ Himself in us by His Spirit. We rest in Him. Our confidence is in Him. We draw all things we need for life and work from Him. He Himself is the Fountain of Life we drink from. God says it is evil when we leave God’s Fountain and start to hew for ourselves our own cisterns. God says our cisterns are broken and can hold no water.

Jer. 2:13 ”“
For My people have committed two evils:
They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters,
And hewn themselves cisterns ”” broken cisterns that can hold no water.

It is either Christ or us. It is either faith in Christ or faith in ourselves. It is either living and working out of Christ or living and working out of ourselves. When we accept Christ, we deny ourselves.

Yes, we are certainly not yet perfect. We press on to gain Christ. The righteousness of God comes from faith in Christ.

Phil. 3:7-11 ”“

But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
More than that, I COUNT ALL THINGS TO BE LOSS IN VIEW OF THE SURPASSING VALUE OF KNOWING CHRIST JESUS MY LORD, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so THAT I MAY GAIN CHRIST, and may be found in Him, not HAVING A RIGHTEOUSNESS of my own derived from the Law, but that which is THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST, THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH COMES FROM GOD ON THE BASIS OF FAITH, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
NOT THAT I HAVE ALREADY OBTAINED IT OR HAVE ALREADY BECOME PERFECT, BUT I PRESS ON so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.